Posts are backwards why?

[Vger]

Hi,

I expect this isn't the first time someone's asked, but reading the Dominions Boards I am again reminded why I find these Boards a pain.

Why is there no option to sort Posts by time, so I could put oldest Messages first? I've looked several times (especially when I was avidly playing SE4) and never found such a setting. If there is one, I profusely apologize.

I'd really, really like to know why newest Posts are first on the Boards. REALLY.

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, but it just really irritates me every time I have to deal with the Boards here.

Thank you,
V'ger gone

[Psitticine]

Richard has announced a new Version of UBB will be rolled out within the next few weeks. I can't remember what he's said, if anything, about specific features it has, but maybe he can let us know if date/time sorting will be support/enabled.

[ October 10, 2003, 01:48: Message edited by: Psitticine ]

[Richard]

I don't think the sorting will be enabled, and to be honest it isn't being switched because most folks on the Boards like it like this now.

We would just piss the other half of the board off if we changed it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Vger:
Why is there no option to sort Posts by time, so I could put oldest Messages first? I've looked several times (especially when I was avidly playing SE4) and never found such a setting. If there is one, I profusely apologize.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Within a given thread, you can view the individual Posts that way - at the lower-left hand corner of the screen is an option labeled "Printer-friendly view of this topic" with a printer icon next to it. If you follow that link, all the Posts in the thread will be listed from oldest post to most recent post.

[Vger]

Hi Jack,

Thank you, I found out about that crucial little icon on sissypigs about 5 nanoseconds after I posted this, so now I'm happier than I was. Thing I DON'T understand is why we don't have an OPTION to sort however we like. That way, everybody's happy. Well, as happy as we can be. (As in, you'll never please everyone.)

I've been on computers since the days of IBM 360s and I've never liked newest first listings. It's just plain counter-intuitive. It's one of the reasons I'm still on Usenet.

Anyhow, here's hoping the next incarnation of these Boards lets us choose our poison.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

[Tiltowait]

Ditto, these backwards forums drive me nuts. I love lots of the games here but have to go elsewhere for forums that dont hurt my brain.

[Fyron]

Why is it such a big deal? Read threads one way, read them the other way, makes no difference! The content is still the same. And, you can always use the "print" Version of threads to read them in the more common order.

[Tiltowait]

It just really bugs me. And the printer-friendly thing adds a bunch of extra mouse-clicks to read/post which is just as bad.

Just a polite request to give us the option to view Posts in a manner conforming to the default setting of most other internet Boards. I own / maintain a UBB board myself so I know it is possible.

[Fyron]

Conformity is not all it is cracked up to be... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Tiltowait]

<bump>

[Fyron]

An empty post. Interesting.

[Johan K]

I like the backwards sorting.... but I also like Tiltowaits cute blood slave avatar. She certainly makes a tough case.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Why is it such a big deal? Read threads one way, read them the other way, makes no difference! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hypothetically...
Lets say you eat at McDonalds and if they start tossing your hamburgers into a blender that shouldn't make a difference to you either. You're still getting all the nutrients from the food.

THE POINT is that these backward Posts are about as annoying as hamburgers going into a blendor or opening a book to find the Last page is the first.

[snusken]

Dominiona is a nice game

mfg Eric

[akochan]

I must say that it is very disconcerting and painful to read the Posts backwards. Roughly 99% of forums (including every other UBB board I've ever seen) go oldest to newest. I suppose if you're used to this way then you like it... then let us individually choose. But it's kind of silly. Like reading right to left. Or starting a book on the Last page, thus spoiling the ending.

Please please please change the forum so it reads properly oldest to newest, or at least let me change it for myself.

-Andy

[olaf73]

Originally posted by Richard:
I don't think the sorting will be enabled, and to be honest it isn't being switched because most folks on the Boards like it like this now.

We would just piss the other half of the board off if we changed it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This cant be an accurate statement.

How could anywhere NEAR half of the forum readers prefer the backwards sorting? No other forum is like this...

Please. For the love of all that is good and holy...fix the sorting.

olaf

[Mephisto]

I for one like it the way it is much better. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[diamondspider]

[repost from Dominions II forum]

Put me down on the "I hate it" list too.

I browse 20+ forums a day and trying to "change gears" in this forum is a constant irritant for me.

[Dekent]

Yes the cavallary has arrived, the backwords sorting is wretched and gives me headaches ;p

[japinard]

I read MANY forums every day, and it is irritating to have to go through everything backwards here. TO figure out where you Last post left off, you have to first scroll down, and then start scrolling up to get back to where you started. Also, you ncna't just start reading from the top (which is faster) because most Posts refer to the previous Posts. Most people http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=67;t=000024 do not like this, and it is very UNPROFESSIONAL to have a forum that is ***-backwards from every other normal forum on Earth. I love shrapnelgames, but this forum system just screams incompetance... especially when you COULD have the option to sort.

[capnq]

TO figure out where you Last post left off, you have to first scroll down, and then start scrolling up to get back to where you started. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If the forums ran the "normal" way, you'd have to scroll down through all the Posts you've already read to find the new ones, and load another page(s) on threads that run more than one page. On high volume Boards, the current way is actually more efficient, IMO.

I've seen other Boards run latest post first; I myself don't have any trouble "switching gears".

[olaf73]

What other Boards run latest post first? I have never seen one that sorts like this one does.

olaf

[AStott]

If the forums ran the normal way, there'd be a link to take you directly to the oldest post you haven't yet read.

Besides, even on this forum, when you come to a thread you still have to go hunting for the Last post you read. That may or may not be on the first page. Unless (I suppose) you are browsing this board every 10 minutes all day...

Mark me down as someone else who finds the current format irritating.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by AStott:
If the forums ran the normal way, there'd be a link to take you directly to the oldest post you haven't yet read.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And there is exactly this link too on this board. Look at the little blue arrow in the upper left corner.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by olaf73:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Richard:
I don't think the sorting will be enabled, and to be honest it isn't being switched because most folks on the Boards like it like this now.

We would just piss the other half of the board off if we changed it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This cant be an accurate statement.

How could anywhere NEAR half of the forum readers prefer the backwards sorting? No other forum is like this...

Please. For the love of all that is good and holy...fix the sorting.

olaf </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, it is.

If you want Posts in the other order, hit the Printer Friendly button. It will display oldest to newest.

[olaf73]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by olaf73:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Richard:
I don't think the sorting will be enabled, and to be honest it isn't being switched because most folks on the Boards like it like this now.

We would just piss the other half of the board off if we changed it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This cant be an accurate statement.

How could anywhere NEAR half of the forum readers prefer the backwards sorting? No other forum is like this...

Please. For the love of all that is good and holy...fix the sorting.

olaf </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, it is.

If you want Posts in the other order, hit the Printer Friendly button. It will display oldest to newest. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry, I dont buy it. Somebody set up a poll.

The printer friendly view is better than nothing, but you have to hit it for every thread, and the individual Messages arent as readable due to making them...printer friendly.

[Fyron]

Make sure to direct people in all of the various subforums to the poll, as most people do not read this forum Category very often, if at all.

[vanedor]

"THE POINT is that these backward Posts are about as annoying as hamburgers going into a blendor or opening a book to find the Last page is the first."

I agree entirely. I find the way this board is set, presently, especially irritating and somewhat frustrating. I admit some people may like it, but I think a vast amount of people would prefer the normal way and I believe the code should be modified or changed.

[Ed Kolis]

Another problem is you can't link toa particular post, because by the time someone reads the link, it might be on a different page! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

personally I say, why not just make it a user option? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Fyron]

I would think that the systems administrator for Shrapnel and people that have been visiting these forums a lot for years would have a more accurate feel for what the majority might think on an issue like this.

[Fyron]

Originally posted by Ed Kolis:
Another problem is you can't link toa particular post, because by the time someone reads the link, it might be on a different page! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

personally I say, why not just make it a user option? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes you can. See that nifty yellow note with a push pin in it icon at the top left corner of every post? Click on it. It gives a URL for that particular post. Just delete the ;p=1 part and it will work forever. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 02, 2004, 23:16: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Captain Kwok]

I also like the newest first format.

Although it might be more due to the fact that I visit several times a day so I already know what most threads contain.

[aldiss2]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I would think that the systems administrator for Shrapnel and people that have been visiting these forums a lot for years would have a more accurate feel for what the majority might think on an issue like this. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The "people who have been visiting these forums for years" are a self selected sample, how many people do you think didn't like it and never returned?

The "Printer-friendly" option is not optimal as it forces you to download the message again, increasing the tedium for us dialup cripples.

Otherwise, remembering the failed upgrade of the board software just after Dom2 came out, does anyone know if he plans to try again?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by aldiss2:
The "people who have been visiting these forums for years" are a self selected sample, how many people do you think didn't like it and never returned? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not very many. Most people that have come to these forums over the years have not been so fickle as to leave just because they did not like the sorting order. The content is what matters, not the sorting order.

The "Printer-friendly" option is not optimal as it forces you to download the message again, increasing the tedium for us dialup cripples.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, but it is an option.

Otherwise, remembering the failed upgrade of the board software just after Dom2 came out, does anyone know if he plans to try again? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The only thing that failed was getting the uploading script to work with the new forum script upgrade. Nothing else was a failure there.

Also, there is always the "end" key that will move the page to the bottom, preventing any doubled scrolling efforts at all. Doing this as well as using the Jump to New Posts link on every single thread page, helps a lot.

[ February 02, 2004, 23:47: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[olaf73]

Sorry but the sorting order does matter.

I think most people would prefer the traditional newest Last. I say this with a lot of confidence based on the fact that no other board I have ever visited has a default sorting order of newest first.

I think the ideal solution would be to let the user select his/her preference in the my profile section.

olaf

[Fyron]

Yes, that would be the ideal solution. But, most people here on Shrapnel do not share your views that it is horrible and that it is even relevant. The content is much more important than the sorting order. You may not like the reasons for it, but others do. The common way not always the best way. There are other forums out there that sort Posts in newest to oldest order. Most of the better forum software packages support sorting in both orders.

[ February 03, 2004, 00:39: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[calmon]

There are some good sorting features on other Boards:

- One button with normal thread from oldest zu newest.

- Additional Follow-the-Big-Thread Button when the site has more then 1 page. If you press this button the newest Posts will be displayed first.

It works very fine on www.wallstreet-Online.de (http://www.wallstreet-Online.de) The greatest german community board for shares/investments

[Tiltowait]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by aldiss2:
[qb]The "people who have been visiting these forums for years" are a self selected sample, how many people do you think didn't like it and never returned? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not very many. Most people that have come to these forums over the years have not been so fickle as to leave just because they did not like the sorting order. The content is what matters, not the sorting order.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Non sequitur.

And if Shrapnel is foolish enough to ignore irate customers to satisfy someones ego over these bass-ackwards forums, they deserve what they get. I for one avoided them for years (though I occassionally purchased a Shaprnel game) and the second a good dominions 2 forum starts up elsewhere, I will be gone again- the people here are nice but it's always irritating to visit them.

[Mephisto]

Originally posted by Tiltowait:
And if Shrapnel is foolish enough to ignore irate customers to satisfy someones ego over these bass-ackwards forums, they deserve what they get.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So what do they get? I really think we should come back to earth. We are just talking about the sorting of the Posts and now people are talking about leaving the forum for good. Don't you think this is a bit over the top?

[Tim Brooks]

Hi All:

Sorry some of you have problems with the sorting order. We have done this so that we may provide better support. It is much easier for us to see the new Posts quickly than to go through many pages of Posts to get to the new. And after 4 1/2 years, we now consider it the norm as most of our forum members do.

We have new software that I believe will allow you to choose the way you would like the Posts to be presented. We tried to install this and found the conVersion to be a long drawn out process. With three new releases (Coliseum, Dominions II and Starfury), we just can't have the forums down for a week to 10 days right now. The new Users rely on information here to learn and better understand the games.

Once things settle down a bit and we can find the time we will upgrade the software, but that won't happen anytime real soon.

If you must leave us because of the way the Posts are presented, we will hate to see you go. Hope you try us again in the future.

Happy Gaming!

[QuestGAV]

I am going to have to throw my two cents in here. While it may be difficult for you and your current board readership to switch to a new topic, it's certainly hard as hell to completely redefine something that we've all learned since we were toddlers: that you read from top to bottom. Reading up is a huge hurdle to getting involved in these forums and your games. Obviously it's your board and you've got a way of doing things you're happy with; just consider that you're placing a hurdle to customer retention by trying to train people to read from bottom-to-top instead of the natural way.

[Sand]

If fixing the post order is on your work queue, that's all I can ask -- obviously paying the bills is more important than this stuff. I would definite put in a strong request to upgrade when you have time available though!

[Another Wanderer]

In any case, it seems like most of the Users would prefer to have at least the option to use normal sorting, according to the sorting poll. Myself included, as I find transitions between Shrapnel and any other forum after reading lots of stuff here rather confuzing. Having to shuffle up and down in threads with long Posts is also somewhat annoying. On the plus side, though, this is one of those rather few forums where interesting threads appear regularly.

[Atrocities]

Having the choice is great, but it would more than likely require the forum to be down for a significant period of time while they update the features. As we all know a down day at a busy forum can cost a company $$$ bucks and loose membership.

I like the the forum system as it is now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PrinzMegaherz]

I like the way this forum works.

It is against the mainstream, like the games that are sold here.

[Gandalf Parker]

The setup choices seem to be for ease of moderation. Not unusual for forums that expect rare Posts with few answers. Kindof a Customer Support setup. Most of the forums here seem to reflect that it was a perfectly reasonable choice. It looks like its only Space Empires, and moving up fast Dominions 2, which make it a problem. Those are spawning the kinds of traffic seen in general public conversation webBoards. Newsgroup levels of traffic.

IF the new Version of the board can be installed without loss of the content already in the forums, and it offers Users a choice, then Im all for it.

[Fyron]

In any case, it seems like most of the Users would prefer to have at least the option to use normal sorting, according to the sorting poll. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I stated when that poll was created, it is irrelevant because it was not promoted to other forums on Shrapnel, so it did NOT receive a valid sample of votes from the forum membership. It was only voted on by those that happened to stumble in here, which most people do not.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> In any case, it seems like most of the Users would prefer to have at least the option to use normal sorting, according to the sorting poll. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As I stated when that poll was created, it is irrelevant because it was not promoted to other forums on Shrapnel, so it did NOT receive a valid sample of votes from the forum membership. It was only voted on by those that happened to stumble in here, which most people do not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Over in the Dominions2 forum we started pointing people this way when they start a thread on it. I had thought most of the forums where this conversation came up alot were doing the same. I guess we could post a note in the Moderators forum suggesting that.

[Fyron]

There was never any mention in the Se4 forum. That is a rather large chunk of the forum membership right there that never heard of this poll...

[Blitz]

I hate your forums.

I read them every day, and it bothers me every day. If there was ANYWHERE else to get decent conversation about Dominions 2, I would leave forever and not come back. I don't care that your older Users like it this way, I want to look at them the way I am accustomed to, and I really don't care why they are this way. Only the unbelievably addictive nature of Dominions 2 keeps me here.

I am a good customer. I paid for your game, I never bothered tech support. All I want is a few patches and some Boards I can read without effort. If you can fix it without bothering your old Users, great. But it seems that those posting here don't seem to care that it inconveniences us, so I really couldn't care less if sorting properly would suddenly irritate them. Frankly the "just deal with it" crowd in this thread would be justly rewarded for that point of view by just dealing with it done the standard way.

- An annoyed reader of these forums

[Fyron]

Outright insulting the company is not the right way to go about it Blitz...

Shrapnel prefers the forums this way, which is why they stay this way.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Blitz:
I hate your forums.
- An annoyed reader of these forums <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We are working on making them into forums since they have picked up so much. The original format was for staff/Moderators. Its more of a "Customer Support" format.

The new software does apparently allow for Users to choose the discussion format (what you were asking for). However, its NOT a software upgrade. Its a whole new software (by the same company). The major question still to be answered is whether or not we can keep all the nice content we already have.

More attention will be available for this after Origins (and the consequent recovery time)

[spirokeat]

its a pain in the *** for a number of reasons.

When your reading the topic listing and a particular topic has more than one page you cant just click the main topic heading to read it, you have to excert finer mouse control to click on the Last page in the list to get to the start of the post.

When your reading Posts, you read a reply downwards, then have to roll upwards to the next one.

Thats just 2 very basic reasons, with no rancour attached.

Actually, having thought about it, I see no reason why I should have to offer a rational reply as Im not debating this with anyone.

It DOES bother me and it DOES get me mad AT shrapnell, It makes me think less of them, it makes me want to not buy any other product from them. Sort the fugging forums out.

Spiro

[ June 19, 2004, 09:36: Message edited by: spirokeat ]

[Richard]

Actually, it's funny that this topic comes up. Most people do hate the format when they first visit, but the folks who read regularly end up loving it since they can find the newest Posts easily at the top of their current thread.

As far as the future goes, we'll have to see how the next Version of everything works out.

We could switch it back, but honestly we would probably piss off more people who are used to it by now.

[Voidhawk]

You know, there's a reason why my post count here is so low even though I've been a loyal Shrapnel customer for years now.

While I certainly don't find the current format repulsive enough to keep me away entirely, it definitely dissuades me from being an active contributor here.

Maybe I'm just an old dog and reluctant to learn new tricks, but I honestly think I'd have more fun playing the latest real-time strategy game than surfing these forums. If nothing else, I'm sure the RTS game would require far less dexterity and careful planning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It's not a huge issue for me, but options are always good!

[Gandalf Parker]

The new software upgrade offers it. Of course that does cost but thats not an issue. The issue would be that it does things VERY differently (goes from CSS to MySQL I believe).

So besides deciding whether to go from a support to a community-chat format, there would be the careful CAREFUL effort to make sure none of the content we have is lost.

[ June 22, 2004, 02:17: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[DarkAnt]

You would not believe how confused I was when I first starting reading Posts at shrapnel. I believe you might be losing a few people just because of the initial confusion.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by DarkAnt:
You would not believe how confused I was when I first starting reading Posts at shrapnel. I believe you might be losing a few people just because of the initial confusion. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Possibly. But initially the choice was "this or that". There were pros and cons either way.

NOW I believe the new Version of the software offers it as a Users choice in their profile. Very nice. If we can port over the threads we have going then it will be a win/win situation.

[Blitz]

So like, is there any action being taken on this or what? No, I never "got used to it". Yes, it's still annoying. Please fix, thanks.

[FarAway Pretender]

Just thought I'd throw in my thoughts: I definitely prefer the "standard" format used by other Boards. It really does bother me "reading backwards".

However, as others have said, it's obviously more important to pay the $$$ and keep things afloat, so if fixing the display causes too many problems, I guess we'll all deal with it (or we'll take our ball and go home). Running a forum is a fairly thankless job (think of it as "mayor without any perks"!) and I can't blame the Admins if they don't have the time to do a whole new install.

I do think it's sad how bitter some posters are getting over this. We're all brought here by love of the game(s), and it's a shame we can't at least treat each other with the sort of basic respect that our parents all raised us to have.

Kudos to Gandalf for trying to keep this thread constructive and civil!

[ July 03, 2004, 07:54: Message edited by: FarAway Pretender ]

[Fyron]

Kudos to Gandalf for trying to keep this thread constructive and civil! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't forget Tim Brooks, Richard, Mephisto, Atrocities, etc., etc., etc. that tried to keep it civil as well.

[Azselendor]

What's annoying about the ucrrent system for me is that when I search for something, it never displays the correct post in large threads.

If I'm searching for a post in a thread with 20 pages and my answer is on the 3rd post from the start of the tread, it'll show me the third most recent post from the bottom instead.

[msew]

I don't see the poll refered to, so I can't put my poll vote in sadly.

I strongly believe that the user should have the option to pick which display mechanic they desire.

e.g.

May
June
July

VS

July
June
May


~msew

[reverend]

I've been reading these forums for some time now, and it still bothers me that the order of the Posts is reversed. It is directly opposite to human habit: reading is usually done from top to bottom. Look around. You will very rarely find a board that uses the same reversed layout that Shrapnel uses.

I understand the original reason behind this, but you can't mean that "we always did it like this, so it stays this way" seriously.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by reverend:
Look around. You will very rarely find a board that uses the same reversed layout that Shrapnel uses. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on the Boards you visit. Ive done customer suppport for many internet companies and this is the standard arrangment for support Boards. Its FAR easier for busy staff people to see the latest threads, and start with the latest Messages. That way they dont reply to the initial problem if there is a later post saying the person has found an answer which changed it abit. And multiple staff people can quickly see if another staff person has answered the ticket. Its a definate format choice for trying to keep staff and developers active in the forums.

But of course, thats an old and moot point. A couple of the forums have expanded into Community-Chat forums. And thats a good thing. Shrapnel has already decided to support that evolution with hardware/software upgrades including the purchase/install of software which will not only switch the sequence but apparently allows it as a choice.

The only concern now is switching over without any losses.

[ July 06, 2004, 15:58: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Chazar]

I just want state that I've grown to like it the way it is.

[psimancer]

to gandalf shrapnel and all involved

1 whilst i personally do not like the present bottoms up format
2 i do understand the original necessity
3 i applaud their patience with their customers and forum members
4 i applaud their decision to update the software to a Version that allows choice ( very american http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )
5 i thank them for taking the time to preserve the content of the present Boards

6 i suggest a temporary measure if its possible
move the printer friendly button to the tiop of the page if it can be done

7 expand the size of the new Posts blue arrow (never saw that in here till fyron mentioned it)
8 provide a topic search that allow to search specific forums for topics with new Posts
allowing the choice to see new post \topics in all forums or just in say the space empires forum

these are suggestions
all in all i believe the people responsible for these Boards whether it be company , advisors , mods , or just plain old posters have all done a great job and are to be thanked for their time and hard work

(yes that means you to fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

[ July 11, 2004, 16:36: Message edited by: psimancer ]

[Cironir]

Just to chip in my two cents: I'd prefer the "logical" order also, oldest first and newest Last. Since people write Messages from top to bottom (first letter of a message is older than the Last), it would make the most sense to me if threads also started with the oldest article.

it is only one of many.
forum I visited, I'd probably not mind, but alas,
severe headache. If this was the only web
smoothly read it without eventually getting a
my post like this would really help anyone to
I seriously doubt that ordering the lines of

I don't expect that the system is changed just for my needs, but a good community is important to me when I buy/play games. I like reading/writing about what I'm playing, sharing my thoughts and bouncing around ideas. The current system is too frustrating for me to really want to participate here, so the game's attraction is also negatively affected. My loss, I know.

Giving the user the choice would by far be the best option. If newer Versions use a different format/system to store Messages, then this probably does present a problem, however, it's a problem you'll eventually face anyway. Are there tools that would help converting the data?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Cironir:

it is only one of many.
forum I visited, I'd probably not mind, but alas,
severe headache. If this was the only web
smoothly read it without eventually getting a
my post like this would really help anyone to
I seriously doubt that ordering the lines of
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cute. But not a good example. After all its not the Posts that are reveresed. Its the threads.

Any forum built around customer support (you know, the ones that do trouble tickets) tend to be ordered this way. So your example should have been that any customer service person jumping into a troubleshooting thread would see...
5)thanks that fixed it
4)did you try teaking the borgle?
3)no that didnt do it
2)are you sure the fwibble is turned off?
1)I cant seem to get asdf to work on my machine.

So the first post is the one most informative about what answer might be needed if any.

I don't expect that the system is changed just for my needs, but a good community is important to me when I buy/play games. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heard and agreed to.

[ July 27, 2004, 17:40: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Ragnarok:
I hope by that you do not mean that Shrapnel is thinking of changing things to the more common layout of oldest Posts first and on down. I would truely hate to see that happen here. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not switch it. Just extend it. (hopefully. Knock on virtual wood)

Actually the SEIV forum had a big hand in the "this is a community chat forum not a trouble shooting forum" discussion. It had been decided awhile ago to upgrade the forum software to a package that makes the sequence a user choice. But to accomplish it as a choice means the software stores forums very differently. The reason the upgrade wasnt done instantly was concerns about importing. Progress looks good and (looking nervously around for Murphy) an answer one way or the other looks imminent.

[Cironir]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Any forum built around customer support (you know, the ones that do trouble tickets) tend to be ordered this way.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not the customer support forums of companies I've worked for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Admittedly, though, the "newest first" order was more common a few (many?) years ago, I don't encounter it often anymore. I also agree that there are some advantages to it, but they are far less significant, or even non-existent, on community-focused Boards (where threads are usually on-going discussions rather than question/answer small-scale exchanges).

A number of forum packages support the "automatically go to newest message in a thread since your Last visit" (or "... Last time since you opened this thread") feature, which would probably meet the needs of customer support reps who are pressed for time, and still allow a more "natural" order of Messages in a thread. The current system is as tedious as top posting in Usenet, though not entirely comparable since threads are still ordered "properly".

Anyway, I feel a bit bad that my very first post here was criticism. The different order was the first problem I ran into, so I used the search command and found this thread. It's meant as feedback, not as *****ing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Suicide Junkie]

You can click the "Printer friendly" link if you need to catch up and read them all from oldest to newest.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Not switch it. Just extend it. (hopefully. Knock on virtual wood)

...
...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh ok. Well it would be nice to have the option of picked which way you want to view the threads. I personally love this way over the conventional method. In fact when I first came to Shrapnel I absolutely hated the reverse (correct for me now) order of the threads, but now I have gotten used to it and it makes more sense to me to have them this way. So instead of opening a thread and needing to click to the Last page to view the newest post I can just click open the topic and boom the newest are right there on top.

But going to the conventional way of doing things would not be so bad as long as we have the option of chosing which way we want to view it.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Cironir:
Not the customer support forums of companies I've worked for. Admittedly, though, the "newest first" order was more common a few (many?) years ago, I don't encounter it often anymore. I also agree that there are some advantages to it, but they are far less significant, or even non-existent, on community-focused Boards (where threads are usually on-going discussions rather than question/answer small-scale exchanges).

A number of forum packages support the "automatically go to newest message in a thread since your Last visit" (or "... Last time since you opened this thread") feature, which would probably meet the needs of customer support reps who are pressed for time, and still allow a more "natural" order of Messages in a thread. The current system is as tedious as top posting in Usenet, though not entirely comparable since threads are still ordered "properly".<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is all very true. No one here is in disagreement with any of it. The "trouble support" Version which was started here years ago is no longer "commuity chat" that these forums have become.

And switching to a newer package which allows it both ways is the answer. Done and purchased. Its no longer a question of IF it should be done.

But Im not sure if you realize yet the wealth of information which has built up in these forums. In some cases it has gone beyond a manual, beyond a strat guide, its become an encyclopdeia of knowledge which exists nowhere else. THATS the scarey part. Making it easier for some Users now does not tip the scale over precautions about the data. Since we are between conventions it has become the "project of the day"

[narf poit chez BOOM]

On one hand, I like having the newest Posts right there where I can look for them. On the other hand, it can be a strain to read the Posts backwards.