Some observations

[Plutonium239]

I played the demo for a bit Last night and will play it some more before deciding on whether I will buy this game or not. A number of things bothered me. Hopefully these things can be addressed by modding or someone more experienced with the game can post some workarounds.

Immediately after starting the game I noticed the outrageously quick turning rate of my ship. The ship certainly doesn't look like a super light fighter...? Acceleration and deceleration seemed to be instantaneous. Is this game purely arcade style? I'm hoping later ships will have slower turning rates. The instant speed changes are unacceptable.

My first fight (not counting the lone fighter in the very beginning) was against a pirate destroyer. After several exchanges of fire I was behind the destroyer and appeared to disable his engines (maybe "killed" it). The ship should no longer be able to accelerate or decelerate. It actually comes to an instantaneous stop and I crash into it. I was laughing out loud but that's not really a good thing. There's no sense of immersion if the game does not even make the most simplistic attempts to emulate realistic motion. I'm not looking for perfect Newtonian physics, but this is just way out there.

Obviously it is easy to simply stay out from directly behind a ship but the whole sequence was laughable compounded by my ship's phenomenal ability to make near instantaneous turns.

This was just after jumping into the Genesis system on an escort mission. I was a bit skeptical when the mission briefing simply said Genesis system without giving a specific rendevous point. I guess the ship will hail me when I get there. Nope. Well ok, I can cycle through friendly targets. Nope.

What kind of escort mission is this? Perhaps this was meant to be a find the lost ship mission? What was its Last known position? Pretty ridiculous but I'll try the mission again tonight and see what happens.

When looking at ship components various strengths/weights of armor have the exact same icon. Not even subtle variations to indicate the differences between them. Differing sized honeycombs on the hexagonal plates would have been good perhaps with differing colors as well. This is only a minor grievance but the simple addition of variant icons would greatly add to the ship dock's ease of use. This I hope is modable.

Is there no ability to set nav points?

The premise of Starfury is excellent! I really want to like this game. So far it seems like it has a great deal of potential that has not been realized.

I hope that some of the issues are only due to my brief exposure to the demo and after spending more time with it I will find the missing features and learn to add additional icons. Can anyone shed any light on these points?

[Wydraz]

I too was jolted by the turn rate of the destroyer. Larger ships turn more slowly, rest assured.

I agree with your points, I am afriad to say. I think perhaps Malfador may be relying on the great modders in this community to make it more in line with what you were expecting. I have looked at the possibilites, I think every one of your points can be addressed in a mod (except perhaps nav points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif ).

The bad news is that SESF cannnot please everyone. The good news is that in a few months, there will be several mods that could turn it into several different games. One of them is likely to be the game you and I are looking for.

[ September 23, 2003, 19:33: Message edited by: Wydraz ]

[Plutonium239]

Originally posted by Wydraz:
I have looked at the possibilites, I think almost all of your points can be addressed in a mod.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That raises my hopes. At this point I'll probably spend some time trying to determine how easy modifying the game features I am most concerned with is. The game concept is too appealing for me to give up on right away but I'm definitely going to hold off on buying it for now.

Are there any mod resources for Starfury? Perhaps old guides from SE4? Are the demo files representative of the full game's files? I do realize the demo is not designed to be modable but I'm wondering if looking inside its files will give me some insight into moding the full game.

[Wydraz]

Definitely look at the files in the Campaigns folder. This is where the heart to the engine can be tweaked (such as turning rates for ships).

So far there is no real guide for what these files do. Give it a few weeks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 23, 2003, 19:46: Message edited by: Wydraz ]

[Void Of Logic]

Ive also checked out the folders in the game. It seems to have a ton of areas you can change around.

I myself had an encounter with an asteroid, and a planet...ramming that is. Its not like they sat down and wrote out a guide to playing..at least not yet hehehe. What im trying to find is mining equipment, however im sure thats all in the full verson.

It is fun to play around with the demo though. I agree about the turning radius, destroyers are sleek and fast but not as nimble as a figher.

[jpowell]

I was more than a little underwhelmed by the demo. Dated (crude?) graphics in a strategy game are acceptable because much of the game occurs in your mind and imagination. The ubiquitous 'fan fiction' with SEIV serves the purpose of filling in the details of the story. But with a real time game, what you see is what you get. Blocky graphics and the physics peculiarities impair the ability to suspend disbelief and get into the game. I, for one, could not.

In its present incarnation, Starfury reminds me of a weak, and rather unstable, Freelancer clone. I am not likely to buy it. I would have rather seen SF as an add-on to SEIV that would set up combat that occurs on the tactical screen and allow the player to 'live' the battle as the captain of one of the ships.

[Captain Kwok]

The pirate cruiser may have hit the boundaries of the system - that will bring a ship to a very quick stop. If I recall correctly, then I think ships will damaged engines do slow down, not instaneously stop. I don't think it's really necessary for the ship to continue based on inertia, but it might be interesting. I'll mention it in the beta thread.

I do wish that Aaron would add some help to find the escort ships, that can make you bonkers sometimes. Nav points are also something that have been mentioned often...

In regards to graphics, they're not that bad and some of the ships are quite decent. I think it's the 3d engine that needs some work really to streamline the animations and stuff - it really hurts Users on the lower end of requirements.

[Suicide Junkie]

There's no sense of immersion if the game does not even make the most simplistic attempts to emulate realistic motion. I'm not looking for perfect Newtonian physics, but this is just way out there.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is in line with SE4 physics, though.

Newtonian physics can be done fairly well in a mod.
Just give the ships infinite top speed, and zero acceleration / turn rate. Then give the accel/turn abilities to engines.

[Puke]

Originally posted by jpowell:
I was more than a little underwhelmed by the demo. Dated (crude?) graphics in a strategy game are acceptable because much of the game occurs in your mind and imagination. The ubiquitous 'fan fiction' with SEIV serves the purpose of filling in the details of the story. But with a real time game, what you see is what you get. Blocky graphics and the physics peculiarities impair the ability to suspend disbelief and get into the game. I, for one, could not.

In its present incarnation, Starfury reminds me of a weak, and rather unstable, Freelancer clone. I am not likely to buy it. I would have rather seen SF as an add-on to SEIV that would set up combat that occurs on the tactical screen and allow the player to 'live' the battle as the captain of one of the ships.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I believe its actually intended as a preview to the combat and possibly the ship modling engine for SE5. imagine the game scaled up to hundreds of ships in combat, and empire managment rather than ship piloting as the focus.

[Renegade 13]

Originally posted by jpowell:
I was more than a little underwhelmed by the demo. Dated (crude?) graphics in a strategy game are acceptable because much of the game occurs in your mind and imagination.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps we're being a little harsh here. It isn't as if there's a huge company out there, with money to burn, and tons of programmers to satisfy our every whim. It's one company with a (comparativly) small workforce.
Personally, I think the demo was great, and I'm looking forward to my pre-order arriving sometime, hopefully soon.

[Phoenix-D]

Even in the demo, the turn rate can be modded if you think it is too fast. Go into Starfury/Campaigns/Campaign 0/ and open the file Main_PurchaseShipsPlayer.txt. Each ship has a bunch of values here.

I changed the cruier's turn rate from 0.03 to 0.003. At first it didn't seem to do anything- then I bought another cruiser. Bingo- the ship that had pulled a 180 degree turn in 4 seconds, now took 40. You'll have to make any changes to all the ships, including the ones in the other files (eg Main_PurchaseShipsEnemy.txt)

I think after release I might try throwing together a Newtonian mod. Right now I'm still exploring the limits of the demo. I have a suspicion that you can change entries all you want, you just can't add any new ones.

EDIT: As far as graphics go, those can be too of course. I think most of it looks fine, except the star graphics and close ups of the nebulas.

[ September 24, 2003, 00:01: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

[Captain Kwok]

Originally posted by Renegade 13:
Perhaps we're being a little harsh here. It isn't as if there's a huge company out there, with money to burn, and tons of programmers to satisfy our every whim. It's one company with a (comparativly) small workforce.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Make that one person with a bit of contracted graphics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think Aaron did a pretty good job and I know he'll keep working on improving the game.

[jimbob55]

a match target's speed button would be nice.

As would an auto save when moving through warp points.

Just lost 2 hours of gameplay because i forgot to save the friking game and crashed into an invisible planet.

[Wydraz]

It would be nice (and somewhat more realistic) if planets had atmospheric halos so you could pick them out a bit better. (!)

[Phoenix-D]

Uh, jimbob..the game does auto-save when you go through warp points. Check the Last game in the list. Note that it only saves one auto-save though.

[Ed Kolis]

Originally posted by Wydraz:
It would be nice (and somewhat more realistic) if planets had atmospheric halos so you could pick them out a bit better. (!)<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can put "engine glows" on ship models, so it seems feasible that you could put a bunch of them in a spherical grid about a planet to create a halo effect. Not sure how realistic it would look, though. You can also put blinking lights on models (look at the floating cargo crates)... it might be kind of cheesy to have a planet surrounded with a grid of blinking lights, but consider it a computer navigational aid http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Captain Kwok]

You can increase the in-game lighting to avoid crashing into dark planets etc.

Check the hotkeys in the options menu to find what keys do that as I can't remember off-hand.

[Ed Kolis]

I had another idea about the halo; there's a field in StellarObjects_XFiles.txt called "Star Glow Color"; presumably setting this to some RGB value other than 0,0,0 would make the planet glow faintly. I tried this, though, and it doesn't seem to be working; I posted in the beta forum about it so we'll see if anyone figures it out...

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by jpowell:
I was more than a little underwhelmed by the demo. Dated (crude?) graphics in a strategy game are acceptable because much of the game occurs in your mind and imagination.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OTOH, the simpler the graphics, the easier it is to mod. And the hallmark of the whole Space Empires line is not high-end graphics, but playability and modability. That's what most of us here are looking for. And MM/Aaron usually delivers.

[narf poit chez BOOM]

i can say for certain that you can't give yourself 2000000 by messing with the starting character file. but gamehack took care of that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

oh, and on a side note, the difficulty scales based on your ship and i'm pretty sure, characteristics like armor regen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Phoenix-D]

You can also turn on the grid (press G) I find it makes objects much easier to see because of the contrast.

Oh, and while you can't give yourself a million credits to start, you CAN lower the ship costs.

[Captain Kwok]

There are a number of cheat codes to help you out, but I don't think they work in the demo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[General Woundwort]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:
There are a number of cheat codes to help you out, but I don't think they work in the demo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Real Space Empires players don't use cheat codes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[clark]

I like the demo, so far. well, I liked it after I learned how not to crash into things and generally learn to fly.

In my newbie experience, I would have to say for battles, use F8, it is by far the best way to track an enemy and fire all your weapons up their engines!

Quick question, is there a way, or can it be modfied, so that we can customize the keyboard controls?

As is, I have a hard time manuevering AND slowing down, or speeding up, AND fighting. I have two hands, but I use the left for the weapons (1-4), and my right hand has to alternate between the speed keys ( [ ] ) and the righ-left keys.

Take a moment to see the layout of the keyboard to see how your right hand has to fly between these keys in the middle of a battle. It can get harry out there, so I might like to position the keys in a manner that is suitable to me. Just an idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Is there also a way to get the 'cargo' left over from battles to at least show up on the radar? Those things are hard to spot.

And a general question before I go, how does shielding and armor work? Do the shields only work on a particular side, or are the shields cumulative and protect the entire ship, no matter where they are placed (among the shield and armor ports).. i.e. does a shield on the right side protect on the left side too?

Oh yeah, one more, I notice that there is no difference between weapon strengths of different levels. A level 6 Beam weapon has the same damage rates as a level 1 beam weapon... is this just in the demo?

[Phoenix-D]

"Quick question, is there a way, or can it be modfied, so that we can customize the keyboard controls?"

Yes. Pres ESC, select the controls option.

"Is there also a way to get the 'cargo' left over from battles to at least show up on the radar? Those things are hard to spot."

Not that I know of. What I do is sit still and crank up the time scale. So the little flashing lights go faster, I notice them quicker.

"And a general question before I go, how does shielding and armor work? Do the shields only work on a particular side, or are the shields cumulative and protect the entire ship, no matter where they are placed (among the shield and armor ports).. i.e. does a shield on the right side protect on the left side too?"

Shields and armor only protect on the side they are on. Look in the lower right corner of your main screen- see the green and yellow bars? That's your shield/armor strength for that quadrent.

"Oh yeah, one more, I notice that there is no difference between weapon strengths of different levels. A level 6 Beam weapon has the same damage rates as a level 1 beam weapon... is this just in the demo?"

Look closer..at the end of the range scale. The way SF handles weapons seems a bit strange, but they do improve.

[clark]

Thanks for the reply!

However, I am confused about resetting the keyboard commands. I understand the ESC brings up the control panel options, and I understand clicking on "controls", but how on earth do you change the keyboard keys? I haven't seen anything that allows it, just a display of what the keys currently are.

What am I missing?

[Phoenix-D]

You click on the key you want to change, then press the new key.

So if you want speed up to be W instead of ], click on the ] and press W.

[clark]

Wonderful! Thank you for holding my hand. I think I will try to ride the bike on my own now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[clark]

Alright, another mystery....

Can anyone explain the power requirments?

Right now, I can see different power plants that produce different amounts of energy. I think we start with a 25k plant, but I upped it to a 50k plant. I see some that are better coming in at 100k.

What do the different numbers mean, and what is ideal, and what is simply 'sufficient'? How is power used?

[Phoenix-D]

Power plants have two numbers: generation, and storage. The generation is the amount of power they make per time (not sure how much time) Storage is how much they hold maximum.

Each of your weapons uses power to recharge- ussually 10 units. If you run out of power, I'm not sure what happens; probably your weapons won't recharge, and you might slow down.

[clark]

Thanks again! Okay, next question:

I noted the issue with the weapons and there not being much difference in ability between levels. It seems there is a slight difference in some of the weapons (my experience so far).

What about other components though? I do notice the difference between engines (propulsion speeds) armor rating, shield Ratings, etc.

But for the life of me, I can't figure out whether a 7th level Bridge or Crew Quarters is better than a level 2 one. They seem to be exactly the same. If so, why denote different levels? Should we just ignore level differences for certain devices?

[Phoenix-D]

On those, I don't know. Everything except bridge, CQ and LS seems to improve. I think the crew quarters and life support might as well, by preventing crew death better. On a destroyer that doesn't matter, but the rate of death can be adjusted- I bet some of the bigger ships need more than one Life Support..with a more advanced type, they might not.

[macjimmy]

Sometimes, seems like usually after I've sped up time to cross a system, my ships speed will drop to almost stopped and will not match where I have my speed set. After a little bit of waiting, it starts working again. I don't have damaged engines, or anything like that, and I am carrying no cargo. Aside from that, I am really enjoying the demo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Its not often that a demo can get more than just a few minutes or so of playing time out of me.

[ September 24, 2003, 18:47: Message edited by: macjimmy ]

[clark]

Once more, thank you!

How about this...

Every once in a while, I manage to destroy another ship and they leave behind some "illegal" cargo. What is the value fo this stuff? Is it worth more to some people? I haven't really tried to shop it around becuase I sold all my cargo holds and armor just to afford the weight of an extra gun on the SS rinky-dink, and any extra cargo effects my speeds rather noticeably.

Is it just stuff to be sold where ever and whenever, or is there a bigger prize waiting for those who make the effort? (i'm talking about the illegal cargo)

How long does cargo float around anyway? will the PC ships pick them up? Do they disappear?

And if anyone could shed some light on the mystery of skill levels, that would be appreciated. What does investing the offensive and defensive skills give you? Negoitation? I can tell that armor, hull, and shield improve your regeneration repair rate (in space), but what do these other numbers mean?

[clark]

Is it worthwhile joining the pirates mercenary guild? What kind of missions do I get for 50,000 bucks?

You DO know where the pirates mercenary guild is, don't you....

[Alpha Kodiak]

Originally posted by clark:
Is it worthwhile joining the pirates mercenary guild? What kind of missions do I get for 50,000 bucks?

You DO know where the pirates mercenary guild is, don't you....<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The pirate mercenary missions tend to have higher rewards. The guild itself becomes more important in the full game.

[Suicide Junkie]

Originally posted by macjimmy:
Sometimes, seems like usually after I've sped up time to cross a system, my ships speed will drop to almost stopped and will not match where I have my speed set. After a little bit of waiting, it starts working again. I don't have damaged engines, or anything like that, and I am carrying no cargo. Aside from that, I am really enjoying the demo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Its not often that a demo can get more than just a few minutes or so of playing time out of me.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Sounds like perhaps you ran off the edge of the map... When that happens, you drop to 1/8th speed automatically.

Press "g" for the grid, to see where exactly you are.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Suicide Junkie:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There's no sense of immersion if the game does not even make the most simplistic attempts to emulate realistic motion. I'm not looking for perfect Newtonian physics, but this is just way out there.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It is in line with SE4 physics, though.

Newtonian physics can be done fairly well in a mod.
Just give the ships infinite top speed, and zero acceleration / turn rate. Then give the accel/turn abilities to engines.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That won't solve the issue of ships with damaged engines suddenly decelerating to zero, will it?

Also, if you give infinite (or even, very high) max speed, won't ships still be able to reverse direction quite quickly? If so, that would just add a new problem, which would make avoiding collisions even harder, and perhaps challenge the AI. Sounds humorous to try, but not much help for the funny physics.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

"Also, if you give infinite (or even, very high) max speed, won't ships still be able to reverse direction quite quickly?"

Lower the turn speed and acceleration rates to match. I'll test this now, see what happens..

EDIT: a big problem, though, is you can only speed up in 25% incriments. Very odd for a pure newtonian system.

Tested. Speed doesn't affect turn time at all. It does, however, affect turn radius. I didn't play with turn speed, since there is no way to vary it depending on speed.

That does and doesn't make sense. Does, because a ship could turn around quickly. Doesn't, because a ship would still be moving the other direction. Not so in Starfury.

[ September 24, 2003, 22:07: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

[Suicide Junkie]

The key thing will be that top speed does not depend on your engines. The built-in top speed of the hull would be very high, the built-in turn rate and built-in acceleration would be zero.

Engines would add to the turn & accel. Engine damage would thus force you to go in a straight line, and prevent you from slowing down (top speed is always above current speed)

You could only set desired speeds in increments of 25% (of lightspeed, perhaps) with the keyboard, but with mouse controls, you can get it in 1-pixel increments.
If the acceleration is low enough, you don't need to worry - just press full throttle to accelerate and zero to slow down. When at your desired speed, you can click the mouse where the speed line is to set cruise control, or just alternate between gas and brakes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PvK]

Yeah, especially if you turn up the max speed to something very high - it would be challenging to come to a stop near enough to a planet to "shuttle over". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

Sorry to burst that bubble there Puke, but you can be tearing alone at any velocity you like and still shuttle over. Better, you come out of port in exactly the same position and speed.

[PvK]

Don't worry about bursting bubbles, since that's not what I was talking about, and I'm not Puke.

What I meant was, if a modder decides to increase the maximum speed to many times more than the current maximum, that will make the current four speed settings available with the keyboard be rather farther apart. So 1/4 speed might be rather too fast to easily manage to pull up alongside a planet in orbit range.

However, you could still use the mouse to select a smaller fractional speed than 1/4.

Still, it seems like there would need to be hard code changes and AI changes before the movement would be much like Newtonian.

PvK

[Phoenix-D]

Err, oops. On the name at least, since I was refering to the shuttling over comment in the post before mine..

"Yeah, especially if you turn up the max speed to something very high - it would be challenging to come to a stop near enough to a planet to "shuttle over"."

[milo]

Originally posted by Phoenix-D:
Err, oops. On the name at least, since I was refering to the shuttling over comment in the post before mine.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The issue isn't whether or not the ship comes to a halt. The issue is whether the player can maneuver it within the shuttle radius of the target station. By analogy, if your car's choice of speeds were 0 and 100 mph, it would be pretty hard to get it safely into the garage.