Why such a high price?

[DarkStar]

This is awesome news. I loved the first one and love and have supported Shrapnel in the past with my purchases of RuneSword 2, Dungeon Odessy, and Space Empires 4, and Gold.

I'm also going to get this one when it comes out.

I have to admit I was a little shocked when I saw the price tag on this product. In the past Shrapnel games have been around $35. This is almost $10 more. I sure hope for this price it comes with a large printed manual.

I guess the cost of doing business is going up...

[Nerfix]

Big price?
You should see the numerical estimations of how much stuff there is in this game...

[Pocus]

Actually in France we pay routinely 60$ and more for games, when we buy them from a shop. So no big deal with these 45$ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Nerfix]

Same here in Finland. $45 is a cheap price to me.

[Psitticine]

Cripes, I've been editing those spell and item lists, plus the manual, and my editing partner is going over the units now. Believe me, this game has CONTENT! (rubbing tired fingers)

I guess there's no way I won't come off biased since I've been helping beta-test it and all, but I swear I'm being honest when I say this is the best game I've played in years. It leaves any other fantasy TBS game since Master of Magic in the dust, and I've been an avid player of HOMM, AOW, and the others. I haven't taken a peek to see what the costs are, but I can't believe it isn't worth it. Even after playing it for weeks now, I'd turn around and pay normal game prices (they run $50-60 US or higher around here) for it in a flash.

The only other thing I want from it is a giant parrot avatar (Psitticine = parrot) for my Pretender God. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Daynarr]

Don't forget that you will need to spend some money on therapy to get off this game once you start playing it. Believe me, I know what I’m talking about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Psitticine:
The only other thing I want from it is a giant parrot avatar (Psitticine = parrot) for my Pretender God. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps we should make a Parrot-patch
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O: Perhaps we should make a Parrot-patch
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Uh...
You guys are scaring me...
First, R'lyehian Tentacle Boogeymen and Tentacle Boogeymen/Human crossbreeds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ...
Then the spider-riding Zulu Machaka...
And now Parrots?
*shiver*

[ September 19, 2003, 16:15: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[Richard]

Actually most of our games are 39.95. Runesword and SE:IV were both that. And for 5 dollars more I think it is worth it, this is an incredible game.

[Psitticine]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Psitticine:
The only other thing I want from it is a giant parrot avatar (Psitticine = parrot) for my Pretender God. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Perhaps we should make a Parrot-patch
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! (leaping up and down)

[Mortifer]

WOW this game will cost 50 bucks !?!?!??!?
This cant be true! I mean Dom II. looks like a good game, but it shouldnt cost more than 25$ if you ask me.
You cannot compare this to Half Life II. in quality. [It was a bad example cuz HL2 will be an FPS, but you know what do I mean, right?]

[PDF]

Originally posted by Mortifer:
WOW this game will cost 50 bucks !?!?!??!?
This cant be true! I mean Dom II. looks like a good game, but it shouldnt cost more than 25$ if you ask me.
You cannot compare this to Half Life II. in quality. [It was a bad example cuz HL2 will be an FPS, but you know what do I mean, right?]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why should it cost 25$ ? Why not 10, 5 or 1 ??
The video games economy is working backwards : HL 2 will sell millions copies, Dom2 will sell in few thousands (my guess, and I'm optimistic IMHO).
So HL2 should be *much* cheaper than Dom2, as industrial furniture is to craftmanship... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Mortifer]

I think you are very wrong PDF. There are different quality categories for the games. If you want to sell a game with a '96 gfx quality, it shouldnt cost more than 25$. The gameplay might be good, but the gfx is at least as important now in strategy games, just like the gameplay. Good or bad...that is a fact.

[ September 21, 2003, 14:22: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Mortifer:
WOW this game will cost 50 bucks !?!?!??!?
This cant be true! I mean Dom II. looks like a good game, but it shouldnt cost more than 25$ if you ask me.
You cannot compare this to Half Life II. in quality. [It was a bad example cuz HL2 will be an FPS, but you know what do I mean, right?]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Its only five dollars more than space empires IV, and SE:IV is a couple of years old. Shrapnel apparently thought that 45$ was a reasonable price, and here in sweden at least new games cost 50-60 USD. And most of these games would only yield, to me, a fraction of the enjoyment and playing time that dom 2 delivers.

[Mortifer]

Well I hope that Dom II. will sold out completly, but I doubt is seriously...50$ Category is for top rated games usually....

[Hurmio]

I payed about 50€ of the original dominions. And i can now say that i haven't enjoyed any full price game as much as the dominions. This in mind i will gladly pay another 50€ of the ascension wars.

Matti

[Mephisto]

However Shrapnel should consider that we still have to pay about $11 for shipping and 16% taxes. That makes the game very expensive.

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by Mortifer:
WOW this game will cost 50 bucks !?!?!??!?
This cant be true! I mean Dom II. looks like a good game, but it shouldnt cost more than 25$ if you ask me.
You cannot compare this to Half Life II. in quality. [It was a bad example cuz HL2 will be an FPS, but you know what do I mean, right?]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dominions II will have much more content than HL2. So if it's only the graphics that you care about, well, bad for you then.
I'm willing to pay the 45-50$ and the shipping costs for this game happily, while i won't propably even touch HL2.

[MythicalMino]

I agree Nerfix....I have spent mucho money on games....many of them were marketed as THE best game ever (Empire Earth comes to mind...)

I bought games that cost 30-40 dollars that are not even in my collection anymore....

Graphics? I don't care about graphics....the way i look at it, the better the graphics, the less time they have to actually put into gameplay.

I bought Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic....for i think 30 bucks...within 3 days, I had it uninstalled, and trying to pawn it off on someone for 20 bucks....Dominions offers so much more....so much more....even for the 20 dollar price difference...

I would pay that in a heartbeat...and I will come this thursday

[Nerfix]

Yeah... I stopped playing AOW 2 when i found Dominions. IMHO, Dominions I is one of the best games ever.

[Mortifer]

WOW! You guys are kidding! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif AoW 2. is awesome, I play it for a long time now. Multiplayer is incredible fun as well!
The gfx is fantastic too!
I never thought that a real fantasy strategy gamer dont like this game! IMHO this is the best turn based fantasy strategy ever..

[PDF]

Originally posted by Mortifer:
WOW! You guys are kidding! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif AoW 2. is awesome, I play it for a long time now. Multiplayer is incredible fun as well!
The gfx is fantastic too!
I never thought that a real fantasy strategy gamer dont like this game! IMHO this is the best turn based fantasy strategy ever..<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You're a little too much affirmative : AOW is good and very nice, but there's *something* missing, it never had for me that special touch who compels me to play "one more turn" when I have to quit !
For me old'MoM is still *the* best fantasy strategy game ever. I've discovered Dominions only recently, it also *has* that special touch, but it somewhat overwhelming and not that friendly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ! I have great expectations for Dom2, even if 3D model can"t be compared to Doom3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Mortifer]

I dont think that anything is missing from AoW 2..frankly.especially Shadow Magic is an incredible addon...its an awesome game overall..to me at least.
Well we are different, and seeing things differently of course..
Also there is a quite big Online AoW2 community as well, dont forget about that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 21, 2003, 21:48: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

[MythicalMino]

I was the same way...Shadow Magic just missed something....I realized what it was after I started playing Dominions....

Shadow Magic just really misses the "epic" feeling....it just seemed that the battles really didn't mean much....but so far, I have had many "Major" battles in Dominions....like, when my army barely made it to break the seige on my capital....and WON!!! Also, when I took the Marignon capital, and killed their Pretender during the fight....

Add to that the number of soldiers involved....Shadow Magic just didn't have that....and with Dominions, I played 9 hours straight Last week...and had to force myself to stop...so I could get some rest before I had to go to work....

no, Shadow Magic to me just doesn't have "it"...

[Nerfix]

Yeah. AoW2/SM lacks "it". Dominions I is very, very addictive game. Also, for me, AoW 2 had a huge, burning red BETA tag stamped on it. It was so unstable i could barely play it! AoW 2 "web community" was also, IMO, quite narrow minded and flamed anyone who pointed out that the game had flaws in it, or spoke anything about other games than AoW 2 or AoW.

And Mortifer, play the demo first, whinge after playing demo. Then you might have actual issues to whine about. If you don't want to pay the $45, then don't. I, and i believe others are also willing to happily pay that $45 for Dominions II.
Heck, IMHO, Dominions I demo had more content than the full Version of AoW 2.

[ September 22, 2003, 05:39: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[LordArioch]

I didnt have stability issues with shadow magic...but it very quickly got to the point where it was just a tedious matter of killing more generic units with my generic units *again*. And attacking towns is just annoying since you either spend far too long to get fragile seige engines to break down the walls or do it with troops. I just dont like the way that 2 turns worth of production can die in a single hit as your troops manage to roll 1 damage.

"Oh look...more *insert any unit in game* for my druids to kill...yay" repeat twice per turn every turn. It just didnt feel fun to me.
Now good old MoM had "it". Even if you could take 11 life books and start by summoning the most powerful unit in the game. The most epic spell in age of wonders is.... Earth Mastery *and the like* whoo...i have domain...wow...

Compared to casting time stop or armageddon in MoM
or some global in dominions like Illwinter...it just feels so minor.

[Nerfix]

Yeah... Dominions starts to feel... apocalyptic when you have Illwinter and Wrath of God active...

And AoW 2 didn't realy miss anything but creativity...
Elves, Orcs, Dwares, BLARGH!
Dominions I and II offer so much more than that game can ever offer.

[ September 22, 2003, 05:49: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[Potatoman]

Shadow Magic may lack an "epic" feel, but it has quite a bit going for it. A decent user interface, a minimum of micromanagement, and easily decipherable game mechanics readily come to mind. I've played the Dominions demo for quite some time now (I didn't buy the full Version because my friends weren't interested in playing hotseat) and I myself still don't know exactly the effect of, for instance, a weapon reach of 3 compared to a similiar weapon of reach 2. Does it give you an attack bonus? A defense penalty? Just the ability to stay beyond the range of Abysian/summoned heat/cold auras? It's frustrating because there are dozens of small game mechanics that are not explained (or even hinted at) in any manual, fansite or in-game help bar. AGRh.

The upshot is that, of course, with so many mechanics the game itself is quite complex and strategically deep. There is more stuff in Dom I (sheer volume of units and spells)than any other tbs that I have ever played; it may not look pretty, or be useful, or you may not even know what it does, but it's still there and you may use it if you want to. That's what makes it an outstanding, though imperfect, game IMO.

[LordArioch]

Actually the manual tells you what weapon reach does...
I've found that between the few fansites and the manual not only what things do is covered but even a fair degree of the hidden mechanics...like the average unit number needed to supress rebels at a given tax rate, or the odds of hitting a unit based on attack and defense difference.

Shadow magic is for people who want pretty, easy games. Dominions is for people who want diversity and the possiblity to come up with strategy after strategy.

[Pocus]

the weapon reach effect is explained in the manual, but I understand your point : many mechanisms are not, lest you would have a compendium of 2500 pages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

weapon reach : if your is greater than your foe, then he has a moral check to do in order to attack. If he fails, he cant attack, if he passes, he takes one hit and can attack.

if you have any question, the csipgs newsgroup could have responded to you. Now that his forum is active, most of you questions you can ask will be answered too I guess.

[Mortifer]

AoW is a totally different game lads. Dominions is not more complex than AoW. Dom does have huge amount of units, spells etc, but 'more' is not means 'better'.
The 2 games are on different overall quality...Frankly I love both games, but Dom II. should cost less than AoW for example.

[Pocus]

more in the case of dominions lead to more complexity. I suppose you'll revise your opinion after having played one pbem of doms, before doing so, I dont think you should draw a so adamant conclusion about the game.

No offense meant, dont feel attacked on anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Daynarr]

There is TCP/IP as well.

[Pocus]

yup with TCP/IP, you can trash your friends in a single afternoon (more often than not, you will eat the mud they feed you with http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

[WraithLord]

Dominions I is a great game.
But requires a lot of micromanagement and the end game is very tedious.
so much so that I usually stop my single player games at some point when I am sure to win.
I have noticed the same thing happened in most of my PBEM games.

I really hope this was solved in DOM-II.
I have been following the DOM-II progress for almost a year now. needless to say I am very excited about it. I will probably preorder the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A word about AOW.
I agree it doesn't have an epic feel to it.
But it has it's merits. it has very nice interface (gpx+music), It's very easy to learn and play and it has a large community with tournaments and a (tough) ladder.

Still L liked MOM the best. I still hope to someday see a MOM-II. I do not understand how come it never had a sequel.

[Mortifer]

Woohoo TCP/IP! Thats cool! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyways regardless of the price, I decided to buy the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Nerfix]

Even with TCP/Ip, don't expect "anything" to happen before turn 20...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by izaqyos:
Dominions I is a great game.
But requires a lot of micromanagement and the end game is very tedious.
so much so that I usually stop my single player games at some point when I am sure to win.
I have noticed the same thing happened in most of my PBEM games.

I really hope this was solved in DOM-II.
I have been following the DOM-II progress for almost a year now. needless to say I am very excited about it. I will probably preorder the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A word about AOW.
I agree it doesn't have an epic feel to it.
But it has it's merits. it has very nice interface (gpx+music), It's very easy to learn and play and it has a large community with tournaments and a (tough) ladder.

Still L liked MOM the best. I still hope to someday see a MOM-II. I do not understand how come it never had a sequel.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Victory conditions have been added. This limits the end game to reasonable times. It is now possible to win by:

* Taking a set number of victory points. VP:s can be edited in the mapfile or randomized. Home provinces can be given VP:s. For example you might give each home province one VP and add two provinces worth three VP:s and set the victorycondition to 12 VP:s. Flight, stealth, farsummons, teleports and fortresses play a greater role in these games.

* Spreading your dominion. Each province is worth 10+domstrength points.

* Research.

* Provinces.

Conditions are set when the game is created.

The VP victory is highly recommended. Especially in MP games.

[MythicalMino]

good idea for MP games....

[Treebeard]

Originally posted by cpbeller:
good idea for MP games....<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I must agree! Victory conditions are a tremendous addition to the game.

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by cpbeller:
good idea for MP games....<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...as long as it doesn't lead to everybody playing with 11 Dominion Oracles and Manticores...

[Kristoffer O]

If you set victory condition to 8 out of 17 home provinces there is no need for 11 dom Oracles.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Shadow Magic may lack an "epic" feel, but it has quite a bit going for it. A decent user interface, a minimum of micromanagement, and easily decipherable game mechanics readily come to mind. I've played the Dominions demo for quite some time now (I didn't buy the full Version because my friends weren't interested in playing hotseat) and I myself still don't know exactly the effect of, for instance, a weapon reach of 3 compared to a similiar weapon of reach 2. Does it give you an attack bonus? A defense penalty? Just the ability to stay beyond the range of Abysian/summoned heat/cold auras? It's frustrating because there are dozens of small game mechanics that are not explained (or even hinted at) in any manual, fansite or in-game help bar. AGRh.

The upshot is that, of course, with so many mechanics the game itself is quite complex and strategically deep. There is more stuff in Dom I (sheer volume of units and spells)than any other tbs that I have ever played; it may not look pretty, or be useful, or you may not even know what it does, but it's still there and you may use it if you want to. That's what makes it an outstanding, though imperfect, game IMO.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right-click a unit ability to see a long description of how it works.

The manual (I think is where I saw it) does mention that reach is used to attack from further away, and also gives a defensive attack as an enemy closes in from outside your reach.

Personally, I much prefer Dom I to AOW2. AOW2 was fun for a bit, but it only took half a game for me to figure out all the systems and realize they were almost all rather generic and simple and that they didn't appeal much at all to my tastes. The AI didn't seem to be very interesting or challenging. I didn't like the combat mechanics. Or the stacking limits. Or the economics. Or the research. I got bored with those kinds of simplified systems back in Master of Magic. I'm sure there are players who will enjoy AOW2 and not appreciate Dominions, but that's the way all games are - everyone likes and dislikes different things about each game. To me though, Doms is worth the $35 for Dom I and $45 for Dom II even within a few months of each other. To me, AOW2 is worth maybe $5-10, and then only really to help a novice get into the genre.

PvK

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
If you set victory condition to 8 out of 17 home provinces there is no need for 11 dom Oracles.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right. But they will help you to accomplish your taks...

[licker]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
If you set victory condition to 8 out of 17 home provinces there is no need for 11 dom Oracles.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right. But they will help you to accomplish your taks...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well obviously the VCs will help determine what kind of pretender makes the most sense. If you have to conquer then maybe the high dom isn't worth as much as if the VC is lots of dom. If you can have multiple VCs activated then it would get even more fun I'd guess.

There's probably some tweeking that will need to happen with the VCs anyway. However, in a MP game it should be easy enough to agree to some limits or house rules, and in an SP game... well what do you care how anyone else wants to abuse the system? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Some cheese needs to be taken care of, but sometimes its better/easier just to let the players sort things out for themselves.

[ September 22, 2003, 19:33: Message edited by: licker ]

[Mortifer]

Ok guys stop bashing AoW please...if we would bring this topic to the AoW Boards, the players there would bash Dominions badly...This is all about what you like, what you dont like. Period.

[licker]

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Ok guys stop bashing AoW please...if we would bring this topic to the AoW Boards, the players there would bash Dominions badly...This is all about what you like, what you dont like. Period.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Heh, there is a Dominions thread on the AoW board (at least the heavengames one), and its not getting bashed at all, quite a few people genuinly interested in learning more about Dom. Besides the AoW 'bashing' going on here is really pretty tame. Heck I like both games, just pointing out some flaws in the AoW design that I've pointed out on the AoW Boards as well.

I do think that Dom and Aow are geared differently though, some people won't like one or the other, but most people will find things about both that they do like.

[Mortifer]

Uhm I asked lot of AoW players, and they didnt even heard about Dom......as for your opinions..I respect all, but I do not agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I never bored by AoW single or multiplayer just like other thousands of AoW fans...
Once again, we are subjective, I like this, you dont. Nothing special..

[LordArioch]

I think AoW is a perfectly acceptable game, but it seems to me like a prettier, less complex Version of Master of Magic. The AI is better in AoW as is the balance, but not by enough to be more fun because it lost the epic magic feel. MoM had better building choices, more flavorful units, etc. Keep in mind AoW has 45 different units that are really different pictures on one of 3 basic units that are for the most part identical. A human swordsman = an orc swordsmen and a orc cavalry = a human cavalry. I dont fully know why, the whole game just feels bland and repetive so I can only do a few turns before i get bored.

The thread that turned into one on dominions at the AoW forums is here: http://aow.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=29,3513,30,60

And if dominions got bashed on the AoW forums it would be by people that dont know what it is as you said...here we have people who played AoW pointing out why they didn't like it. There's a difference.
Also note that if thousands of AoW fans learned of dominions 2 (through a demo! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) I bet there'd be a lot less AoW fans and a lot more dominions fans. Or at least a few...10 maybe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[ September 22, 2003, 21:12: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

[Mortifer]

Hopefully! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I mean Dominions II. will be really unique on the market, and I hope that it will be very successful. I think we can mod it, and thats an awesome starting point as well!
I cant wait to start working on my mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Mortifer]

Edit:
I checked out that thread on heaven.

Copied and pasted from there:

"I downloaded the demo for Dominions....not sure i really like it though....It is complex though, that I will give it. Just not sure I would want to pay 25 bucks for it....
What are all of your guys' thoughts on Dominions? Why do you like it?

It just seems to me at the moment, that although complex, the game is simple....it just seems that it is the same thing....EVERY turn....plus, I wish that the units had some better artwork....not graphics, just some artwork....

Like I said, I think it is a very complex game....but at the same time, it seems very simple once you get past the complexity of it all...."

Check out his Last sentence. I agree with him, totally about that.

[ September 22, 2003, 21:35: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

[MythicalMino]

i believe that was my post....and my opinion of the game has changed, once i started really understand the game more....and especially since i went on and bought the full Version....

Now, I would post:

"this is THE best game I have laid my hands on....EVER....and Dominions II...WOW....can't wait..."

[Reaper222]

WTF?! The game will cost 50$ + shipping?
BLEH! I won't buy it. I will just download it from the net for FREE.

[Nerfix]

troll...

[licker]

Keep in mind AoW has 45 different units that are really different pictures on one of 3 basic units that are for the most part identical. A human swordsman = an orc swordsmen and a orc cavalry = a human cavalry. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm not convinced this is a good way to argue that Dom is superior to AoW, most Dom nations have very similar units as well. The difference of a point or two here or there is virtually identical to the differences between the AoW units. The magic system in dom is however significantly different, and more interesting than the system in AoW, as is the variety in creating magic items.

The main difference to me between AoW and Dom is the pace of the battles. In AoW you typically have battles every turn, often multiple battles. In Dom it seems that especailly the crucial battles have alot of positioning and build up prior to their launch, this is something that is mostly lacking in AoW due to the mechanics of the game. In AoW the map is completely discrete, and stacks can move most anywhere they desire. In Dom you are limited to provinces, its a more abstracted game element that leads by design to more concentrated armies, and more strategic thinking in as far as when to launch an attack, and how to defend your borders. In AoW you essentially cannot defend your borders, though the borders themselves are less important than they are in Dom. This is a significant difference in how one would approach playing either game, and if someone is beholden to one style they will probably have trouble liking or getting used to the other (as there were massive debates on surrender in AoW).

Anyway the differences between AoW and Dom have little to do with units and spells and the like, and much more to do with the fundamental design of the game, and the excecution of that design, that's why its very possible to like both games while feeling that they offer very different things. Unlike most (I said most) RTSs where its just different gfx, but nearly identical gameplay from one game to the next. That is either you like RTS games in general (the preference here is more about weather you like fantasy or WWII or futuristic crap) or you don't like any of them as the gameplay is so much of the same thing over and over.

[MythicalMino]

actually, it is 45 dollars....plus shipping...but...if you pre-order it, it is 5 bucks off....so...hmmm....anyways

[Reaper222]

Is there any point to buy this game for that much? You can download it for free. Even if you don't know jack about warez, just load up google, and type in warez. You will have 5000 warez sites on your list. I will have the game faster than you, and for free! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

IF I will like it, MAYBE I will order it! I always buy GOOD games. If I won't like it, I will play with the warez. [Like almost everyone.]

[Nerfix]

*troll=ignore*

[LordArioch]

...because clearly dominions 2 is going to be a top priority in illegal software distribution...and it will appear on 5000 sites before it even ships...
They already have things for people who want to try games free...they're called DEMOS. And if the company never releases any demo then I don't like them anyway.
So why dont you just try the demo when it appears and then you will buy the game because it is GOOD without any need to do anything illegal.
If not you can leave.

[LordArioch]

I'd have to agree with you licker...but I want to point out that there are occasionally RTS games that are different. Kohan I know of, not to imply there arent more. And Total Annihilation gets points for atmosphere with its music and its cannons that recoil when firing and explosions that light up the screen and its EARLY introduction of 3d to RTS and...where'd I put that CD again? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Reaper222]

Illegal or not, 10/8 are playing with warez games. You cannot do anything against it. CD-Keys or copy protections won't help at all.
If a game is not good enough, and you don't want to waste your money, you just play with the warez. Yes you can try the demo,so you can decide that 1. You will buy the game if it is really good, 2. You will download the warez Version if the game is mediocre, so you can play with it, and delete it later on. 3. Do not download the warez, and do not buy the game, if it is crap.

[licker]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
I'd have to agree with you licker...but I want to point out that there are occasionally RTS games that are different. Kohan I know of, not to imply there arent more. And Total Annihilation gets points for atmosphere with its music and its cannons that recoil when firing and explosions that light up the screen and its EARLY introduction of 3d to RTS and...where'd I put that CD again? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hehe, that's why I qualified my opinions on RTS by saying 'most' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm the first to admit that I dislike RTS, and that includes Kohan and TA, I just don't seem to have the capicity for them, and I did play WarCraft I&II all missions, a smattering of StarCraft, a decent amount of TA and CC. I've also tried RoN and hated it, though I've not tried any of the Age of Whatevers. I can deal with an RTS for maybe 8 hours total (not sequential usually) before I say 'seen it done it' and give up on it. Maybe I'd enjoy MP more, but I really don't have the time or inclination for MP anyway.

As to this warez idiot... I dunno why you people are bothering to reply to his drivel. I'm just waiting for him to get a ban or whatever they do on these Boards. I'll admit I sometime engage in poking the trolls, but this one... doesn't seem worth the effort http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Daynarr]

You will need a stick to poke him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Bimbo63]

The price for the game is fine. Most people who got into Dominions became diehard and spent hours playing and studying the game. It's a small developer...I buy many games from them to help out their dedication for spending umpteen hours coding for my pleasure.

I agree with Licker about RTS games also. I've played most of them since Dune2 and other than Kohan and AOE2 Multiplayer, they don't do a lot different and get pretty stale. It seems to be that MP is the only way to go with these games I believe...of course, you get the guys who have the macros and cheats playing and it ruins that aspect also.

[Bimbo63]

Sorry, AOE2 MP doesn't do much different either, I just have a great time with it.

[LordArioch]

I did notice you said most...I just saw an oppurtunity to throw in examples of contradictions to the rule.
Yeah, RTS games aren't for everyone...even the good ones. I do find it funny that TA still has features that games seem to not include...like huge build queues and fire while moving capabilities... It was just ahead of its time. I never got much into AoE 2 myself...I was annoyed that it was so much like AoE and yet everyone seemed to think it was "so much better". But I can see how you can enjoy it...it's probably among the better of them with some different sides and special units.

And I dont post on forums all that much so I had to take advantage of a good stick-poking oppurtunity. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Its even more funny because I think he replied by telling me that 125% of people play with warez http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif If game makers weren't all so charitable I guess we'd have nothing to play then.

[Mortifer]

Speaking about this....DOM 2. will have PBEM multiplayer only? I dont like PBEM.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by Reaper222:
Illegal or not, 10/8 are playing with warez games. You cannot do anything against it. CD-Keys or copy protections won't help at all.
If a game is not good enough, and you don't want to waste your money, you just play with the warez. Yes you can try the demo,so you can decide that 1. You will buy the game if it is really good, 2. You will download the warez Version if the game is mediocre, so you can play with it, and delete it later on. 3. Do not download the warez, and do not buy the game, if it is crap.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have no points. Wait for the demo, and stop posting sh*t.

[ September 23, 2003, 09:50: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

[Richard]

It's not 8/10, but yes pirating is rampant. However it has NOTHING to do with game price. It has more to do whether people think it's okay to steal other people's property. Plain and simple.

I do agree copy protection is worthless, that's why we don't waste any money on it.

However let this be a warning, encouraging others to do something illegal on these Boards is not permitted. If you post about pirating Dominions again (And I am talking to Reaper) I will ban you and report you to the authorities (we have your IP and we have done this before).

Feel free to discuss the game, but don't advise people on how good it is to steal from developers. Or maybe you would like it if I ripped whatever comapny it is you work for off.

[Mortifer]

I agree with Richard, stop posting about warez here, we all know that it is a huge problem!
Btw Richard reporting someone to the authorities wont help. He was talking about warez, that isnt illegal, its just annoying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Richard]

Actually that's not necessarily true.

And if nothing else, after being warned, it's considered abuse to continue posting against a Boards policies. I can report him to his ISP for abuse.

I don't want to do that, but I won't tolerate the discussion of illegal activities on our Boards.

[Pocus]

about protection scheme, the best one I have found so far was the one implemented in Galactic Civilization. To retrieve each patch, you have to send Online your game key, which is unique. Even after retrieving a patch, there is embedded in them Banned keys (a growing list it seems, I suppose they ban a key if there is a mass download of patches with the same key).

Sure you can play a cracked galciv in 1.0 (I suppose, I own the game and can prove it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), but aside that you need a legit key to get the numerous improvements.

Thats one of the benefit of distributing games Online. Perhaps Shrapnel should establish a secure download connection for patches, with the request of having a legit key when you want to grab a patch. Personaly, thats would not bother me much, and whats more I think that the idea of all these pirates being fooled would give me much joy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 23, 2003, 17:46: Message edited by: Pocus ]

[Richard]

Actually they don't need ot go that far. When you issue a patch it almost always breaks whatever crack someone has used. So the approach makes sense, but I doubt you neeed to spend all of that money to setup a special setup like that.

But in the end I think we pick up more audience by folks who can use our games on their laptops easily then we loose due to pirating.

[LordArioch]

This is off-topic again, but I finally realized what it is that I found AoW lacking...combinations of abilities and spells. I never saw much use for clever combos that made use of otherwise not great abilities...what i mean by this is:
In dominions, flagellants are decent cheap blessable attackers but are HORRIBLY exposed to missle fire.
Also the dom 2 blessing with air that protects against missile weapons is probably pretty decent on its own too.
However, when the two abilites are combined you have more effectiveness than just the sum of the two seperately.
I just didn't see many oppurtunities for that sort of thing in AoW and I am a great fan of that sort of thing, where you can take two potentially weak units/spells and get a great clever combo from them that is useful. I think this sort of thing is what part of what makes every unit in dominions useful where I found relatively few AoW units to be worth using.
Not to say that AoW is a bad game...I just like effectivly combining things...wolven winter (cold +3 modifier on target province) for another example is useless on its own almost but with the right situations can be wonderful

[Pocus]

yes true, any exe will be cracked in a matter of days.
to be precise, Galciv run without cd on a pc, so there is no hassle here. The filter comes when you want to download a patch.

Originally posted by Richard:
Actually they don't need ot go that far. When you issue a patch it almost always breaks whatever crack someone has used. So the approach makes sense, but I doubt you neeed to spend all of that money to setup a special setup like that.

But in the end I think we pick up more audience by folks who can use our games on their laptops easily then we loose due to pirating.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

[Pocus]

Arioch : Indeed. I had identified why I found AoW a bit too dull. Because there is not much combos, compared to MoM or Doms. Thats were these games shines.

[WraithLord]

Talking/encouraging piracy in a dev/publisher forum, now that's a spit in the face. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

About aow,
There is an excellent mod to AOW-II. Adding many units/spells/abilities and putting some sense into the protection scheme.

[Pocus]

i played AOW SM to the end of the campaign. I appreciated the extended scripting work they put in the campaign. But it was often rince and repeat. Most of the time you would use a good chunk of your mana to cast enchanted weapons on your best units for example.

And talking about play balance, they should perhaps take some courses. special city improvement for Orcs : drain life. Cool, now the most dreaded Orcs Warlords drain life. Special improvement for Elves : hide town. Cool, with the AI playing without fog of war (ie cheating), I really appreciate the **fine** (ahem) game equilibrium.

[WraithLord]

I was quite disappointed by AOW-SM.
Of the three added races only one has good units/abilities and feels unique(nomads).
The shadow demons are beefed up undead.
The syrons are sadly a ragtag of half thought units.

I once suggested in their Boards to add a doppelganger unit that can shape shift to slain enemy. I was very happy to get a changeling unit.
Alas, it's completely useless. It can only shape-shift to a slain enemy killed in melee.
so if it killed an archer it's stuck there. The AI will use it horribly, changing to low level units. I wish they would have given more thought to creating unique units.

[Edi]

I don't think €45 is a high price to pay for Dom II.

As for AoW, my thoughts: the original AoW was and still is one kick-*** TBS game. I played that a whole lot, and still love it. It was especially good on some of the excellent maps like Jason Hickman's Reign of Terror (Middle Earth), or Dix's Hunters of Blood I and II, and many others, and especially when you played with leaders off. Playing without leaders eliminated head-hunting strategies and the AI actually started getting aggressive and became a challenge. It was good, and some of those maps really had an epic feel to them.

AoW2 has no possibility of playing with leaders off and is nothing but headhunting (or otherwise just map-crawling) with repeating the same tactics ad nauseam. I didn't like it very much after playing about halfway through, and I'm not sure I'll buy Shadow Magic at all. Quite a few of the original AoW crowd have dropped out of sight for some reason or another, and many have shared my views completely or partially.

DomI on the other hand just rocks, and so will DomII. Can't wait...

Edi

[Zerger]

Originally posted by Edi:
I don't think €45 is a high price to pay for Dom II.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed. Doms 2. will be a very unique TBS game. It's worth of 45 bucks.

[ October 02, 2003, 13:11: Message edited by: Zerger ]

[Yojinbo]

It's gardening vrs comercial farming in my opinion. I will drive further and pay more at a farmer's market for a fruit grown with care by an orchardist or small farmer.

I have no objection paying Shrapnel a good price, knowing that a higher percentage is going to the devlopers. I would rather pay Shrapnel $39 then pay a Huge retail-focused publisher $29.

The fruit you get from a gardener (small farmer) is just better.

[ October 02, 2003, 14:31: Message edited by: Yojinbo ]

[HJ]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
In dominions, flagellants are decent cheap blessable attackers but are HORRIBLY exposed to missle fire.
Also the dom 2 blessing with air that protects against missile weapons is probably pretty decent on its own too.
However, when the two abilites are combined you have more effectiveness than just the sum of the two seperately.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Would you care to enlighten the DomI newbie about how can you target your units in a manner that you are sure that your flagellants will be the ones getting the missile protection, and not your heavy cavalry? My mages always tend to cast spells on the targets I don't want them to, and this lack of control can be a bit frustrating (not to mention friendly magic fire incidents). I would enjoy the game much more if I wouldn't spend half of the time yelling "NO, NO, don't target them, target the other guy".... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Psitticine]

There's no way to directly control magic targeting, but (from what I've been told and have read about Dom I) the AI does seem much smarter about where to put the protection spells in Dom II as well as which ones to use.

No AI is perfect, but I've noticed it takes into account both vulnerability and value (i.e. those vulnerable but sacred flagellants would get a higher priority for missile protection than vulnerable but cheap militia).

I'm not sure about this, but it does seem that mages and priests also slightly favor troops in squads under their direct control. That Last might just be a misleading fluke, however.

[ October 03, 2003, 03:21: Message edited by: Psitticine ]

[Pocus]

to have the Ai target a given individual or group of units, your only trick is to check the range of the spell, and place the mage & troops so that only they are in range.

for example :

body etheral, range 1. Put the mage adjacent to three behemots on hold an attack. Script BE 3 times. You will get the 3 beasts etheralized before they move.

Another example, weapon oh sharpness on a group of knight : I think the spell has 10 or 15 range. Place the mage and the knights in a corner, and he will have to targets them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[HJ]

Thanks for the hints on targeting.
If I understand correctly, one square is a space that can fit a unit with a size of 6 (or 3 units with a size of 2, etc.), right? Is there any way to turn on the grid to get a better idea about ranges, etc.? I'm guessing that when you right-click on a unit, and several of them show up and you can cycle through them within the unit details screen, all those units are on the same square, but it's hard to find out longer ranges.

Btw, the size also matters for trampling and missile hit chance. Is there anyhting else for which the size would be important? And what about that colour-coding of the highlighted units? Red is the amount of damage, green is poison, blue is magically protected, or something like that?

[ October 04, 2003, 17:03: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by HJ:
Thanks for the hints on targeting.
If I understand correctly, one square is a space that can fit a unit with a size of 6 (or 3 units with a size of 2, etc.), right? Is there any way to turn on the grid to get a better idea about ranges, etc.? I'm guessing that when you right-click on a unit, and several of them show up and you can cycle through them within the unit details screen, all those units are on the same square, but it's hard to find out longer ranges.

Btw, the size also matters for trampling and missile hit chance. Is there anyhting else for which the size would be important? And what about that colour-coding of the highlighted units? Red is the amount of damage, green is poison, blue is magically protected, or something like that?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you are quite right on your assertions.
Its a bit hard to compute squares distances, but with some practice you will identify the tiles of the terrain (well it will all go away with doms II, ouch!).

When you right click on a unit, you have the others units available in the squares too.

I dont think that missile hit chance is affected by size. Trampling damage is based on size (8+2*size, armor piercing, attack rating of 10 IIRC).

aside that, size is used in supply usage mostly. A spell at least wont works if the creature is too big. I dont see any other thing, but I must be forgetting many things... only one of the Oracle of Illwinter could give you a complete answer.

The colors indicates what problems has your units, and is the average of RGB values. For example very fatigued and slightly wounded will give you a pinky blue.