Making mods for Dominions II. [Basic editing/modding discussion.] [Archive]

PDF

September 22nd, 2003, 02:27 PM

And also : will it be possible to use mods alongside the "vanilla" game without having to install the game multiple times ? (something like in SE4 with the mod-switcher) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mortifer

September 22nd, 2003, 03:34 PM

Yup thats a good idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I dont want to say again but...in civ3 ptw you can add different mods without changing the core game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Its very cool!

Mortifer

September 23rd, 2003, 01:59 AM

What can we edit in DoM2?

-Can we add new units?
-Can we add new gfx for anything? [Units, map etc.]
-Can we modify the units, spells etc.?

[ October 02, 2003, 13:33: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Aristoteles

September 23rd, 2003, 04:27 PM

I want to make a LotR mod. Is that possible? I mean can I edit the races/sides? I want to add Mordor, Gondor etc, also can I add custom units to them?

Pocus

September 23rd, 2003, 04:32 PM

In doms I, you can add new units, but you cant incorporate them in current races. They are not producable either.

dunno if something more has been made on this topic. I dont thinkt it is high on the priority list.

Mortifer

September 23rd, 2003, 04:35 PM

wow that would be awesome! A LotR scenario!
We can setup alliances in the editor, so that scenario would rock! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

I hope that we can do all this modding! I mean if the editor wont contain these stuff, maybe we still can modify text/data? files to add nits and rename kingdoms etc..???
Any info from the devs about this?

[ September 23, 2003, 15:36: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

PDF

September 23rd, 2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
In doms I, you can add new units, but you cant incorporate them in current races. They are not producable either.

dunno if something more has been made on this topic. I dont thinkt it is high on the priority list.So how can you use them ? Only as part of a scenario setup ? Or only in the Battle sim ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
Not very useful ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Pocus

September 23rd, 2003, 04:48 PM

you can only use them in scenario setup. You can create a balrog, but you cant assign it to a race.

in doms I all datas are in the binary. They are not encrypted, but I dont think you have legally the right to modify the executable. I dont know if in doms II some of the datas are in external files.

Aristoteles

September 23rd, 2003, 04:50 PM

Plz, give us the right and the possibility to mod it, like we can mod Space Empires 4!
If all stuff will be binary, can you release an additional unit/race etc editor?

Mortifer

September 23rd, 2003, 06:10 PM

Well, er perhaps someone from Illwinter can give us some infos? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Richard

September 23rd, 2003, 06:50 PM

We won't oppose anyone's efforts to mod the game in any way. Mod's lead to more sales not less http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Plus I would love a LOTR scenario http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

Mortifer

September 23rd, 2003, 10:41 PM

Indeed! Better editor OR even the ability to completly modding a game = HAPPIER FANS! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Richard the question is: we CAN mod it? If all the datas etc are in binary files, I propably cannot mod it, since I am not a hex editor master.
Lets hope that the data files will be like .txt files or something like that.

PS. Input from the devs would be appreciated. [Still no answer from them about this modding/editing ability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ]

[ September 23, 2003, 21:44: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Pocus

September 23rd, 2003, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Richard:
We won't oppose anyone's efforts to mod the game in any way. Mod's lead to more sales not less http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Plus I would love a LOTR scenario http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .you are moving on a dangerous ground there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif To mod Dominions significatively, you have to modify the exe (lets call this hack it ...), then distribute it to the players playing the mod.

An alternate solution would be to made an application like the SE IV launcher, which is launched before the binary, alter it as the modder wanted, then run the game. On quiting it, the app restore the backup of the game. Still it smells bad, it smells of copyright violation. But it is up to you to decide, and up to Illwinter I suppose (I dont think they abandoned all rights on their binary).

johan osterman

September 23rd, 2003, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Indeed! Better editor OR even the ability to completly modding a game = HAPPIER FANS! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Richard the question is: we CAN mod it? If all the datas etc are in binary files, I propably cannot mod it, since I am not a hex editor master.
Lets hope that the data files will be like .txt files or something like that.

PS. Input from the devs would be appreciated. [Still no answer from them about this modding/editing ability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ]At release the game wont be very moddable. Its to late to implement moddabilty before it goes gold. Perhaps in an upcoming patch this might be implemented.

Richard

September 23rd, 2003, 11:19 PM

Okay let's get to our official policy on this. We don't have any issue with any modifications to the game. In fact we promote that. If you need to hack the exe that's fine, just don't make cracks and float them around the Internet.

And of course we don't officially support mods or support mods that include copyrighted material. However some of my favorite SE:4 mods are Star Trek related.

So any form of modding is fine with us.

Mortifer

September 24th, 2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
Indeed! Better editor OR even the ability to completly modding a game = HAPPIER FANS! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Richard the question is: we CAN mod it? If all the datas etc are in binary files, I propably cannot mod it, since I am not a hex editor master.
Lets hope that the data files will be like .txt files or something like that.

PS. Input from the devs would be appreciated. [Still no answer from them about this modding/editing ability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ]At release the game wont be very moddable. Its to late to implement moddabilty before it goes gold. Perhaps in an upcoming patch this might be implemented.<hr /></blockquote>Wooohoo! That would be awesome johan! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Personally I surely cannot modify the exe, so I will just wait for a patch/addon editor.

Aristoteles

September 24th, 2003, 03:21 PM

Damn, I thought that we can mod the game easily. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Mortifer

September 24th, 2003, 04:58 PM

Um, I guess that they will release a patch or something, so we can make mods. I mean lot of fans would be pleased to make/use mods, Im sure about that, so Illwinter will prolly listen to their fans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mortifer

September 24th, 2003, 04:58 PM

*Sorry for double post*

[ September 24, 2003, 15:58: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

MStavros

September 25th, 2003, 02:23 PM

Hey there,

I am looking forward to buy this game, but I won't order it, until the modding will be possible. I do not really like the current races/sides, I want to make my own world with my own races/units etc. The game is excellent anyways, but I am waiting for a proper editor/modding ability, and when that will be available, I will order the game.

Regards,
M.S.

Pocus

September 25th, 2003, 03:33 PM

seriously... you dont even know the game and his 1000 units, and you are already claiming that it is not to your taste?

[ September 25, 2003, 14:39: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 03:38 PM

Well, the game doesn't have Orcs(hhrrrghhblarg) or Elves(BLARGH!)...

Treebeard

September 25th, 2003, 03:44 PM

Doesn't seem troll behaviour to me. I can see the capability to mod the game as reason enough to not buy it.

Of course, if Johan says Illwinter will add it later in a patch, that's good enough to me. Those guys do deliver.

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 03:55 PM

If you like a game and want to play the game, you buy that game.
If you want to make your own stuff, you get things like The War Engine or RPGMaker2003, or then learn to code.
I've never cared much for modding stuff.

johan osterman

September 25th, 2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Treebeard:
Doesn't seem troll behaviour to me. I can see the capability to mod the game as reason enough to not buy it.

Of course, if Johan says Illwinter will add it later in a patch, that's good enough to me. Those guys do deliver.I said that it could perhaps be added, I am not saying it will be, nor am I saying it wont be. I certainly didnt mean it as a promise writ in stone that there will be a mod patch. Maybe there will maybe there won't, since illwinter is virtually a zero budget company this will all depend on other factors internal or external.

MStavros

September 25th, 2003, 04:13 PM

Hey there,

I bought Dominions I. I love the game. I know that Dominions II. will be even better, but the truth is that I never liked the races. That is why I will wait until a modding tool/editor will be released. I really want to make my own mod, and play with that.
If I must wait months, I will wait months. If there won't be a modding tool available, I won't buy the game. [Or editable database files etc.]
There will be lot of improvements in Dominions II., but it is not enough for me. I thought that Dominions II. will be moddable after the release, Illwinter should make it like that, if you ask me.
Yes not everyone can be bothered by modding, but lot of players are love to mod. There are lot of games with awesome mods, and those mods are lot better than the normal game setups.

The War engine and the RPG Maker are totally different than Dominions, I have no idea, that why did you mentioned those.

Regards,
M.S.

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 04:16 PM

Why, what is Dom II lacking? Orcs, Elves, Mini-Barneys, what?
Why did i TWE and RPGMaker?
"Too Total ConVersion Mods", as i and my friends call them...

Treebeard

September 25th, 2003, 04:23 PM

Sorry for misunderstanding you, Johan. I hope you guys will be able to do it.

Personally I would never create a mod, but I do like 'em. And it really helps to attract more people to the game, which is a very good thing.

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 04:28 PM

I realy see no need for Dom II mods. I mean, you can play Demon worshipping Marignon and Vanheim has a theme with a commander that's name can be translated as "Lord/King of The Hanged Ones" ...
Hello, it's DEMON WORSHIPPING MARIGNON and "LORD OF THE HANGED ONES"....
Oh yeah, there's Last of the Tuatha for Man...

johan osterman

September 25th, 2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Treebeard:
Sorry for misunderstanding you, Johan. I hope you guys will be able to do it.

Personally I would never create a mod, but I do like 'em. And it really helps to attract more people to the game, which is a very good thing.No problem, I just didnt want people to have expectations that weren't deliveredso I thought it was better to clarify.

MStavros

September 25th, 2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Treebeard:

Personally I would never create a mod, but I do like 'em. And it really helps to attract more people to the game, which is a very good thing.Exactly. + Lot of fans are buying games mainly because of the editor/mod tools.
I bet that Doms II. will be very good without a modding tool, but as I said it is not enough. All of hte major games are supplied with a proper editor/modding tool.
I can't be bothered that much as I said. If the tool will be released I will order the game asap. Until than I play with Dom I.

Mortifer

September 25th, 2003, 06:58 PM

Well, I think that it would be a great addition to be able to mod...we shall see that they will add this feature in a patch or not.
Hopefully they will. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 17:59: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Johan K

September 25th, 2003, 08:18 PM

It must be Aaron Hall's evil influences that has made the Shrapnel forum inhabitants mod crazy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'm almost starting to believe that modding is a good thing myself.

/Illwinter's mod enemy #1

Kristoffer O

September 25th, 2003, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Johan K:
/Illwinter's mod enemy #1No kidding. He is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . That's because he's the one that has to change the code.

If you want to bug him a bit more you can propose features that needs moddability.

Just don't over do it. He might get http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

licker

September 25th, 2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Johan K:
It must be Aaron Hall's evil influences that has made the Shrapnel forum inhabitants mod crazy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'm almost starting to believe that modding is a good thing myself.

/Illwinter's mod enemy #1Heh, modding is everywhere, not just here at Shrapnel http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It comes down to everyone thinking they know better than the devs how to balance the games... well there are some people that have too much time on their hands and make excellent additions to games as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But really, if Dom2 is as solidly balanced as Dom1 seems to be, most of the modding will be of the addition variety, and probably people who want more control (scripting) for maps and senerios. I'm looking forward to seeing if anyone will be able to make a campaign of several linked maps with carried over pretenders, heros, ... but that's the SP in me talking, and while I realize that Dom1 and probably Dom2 were developed with MP in mind, I am hopeful that the community, if not the devs, will create alot of SP content (scripted senerios, cool maps, ...) cuz even though I will play some PBEM, its the SP gameplay that's always the hook for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Johan K:
/Illwinter's mod enemy #1Keep your faith bro!
You mod-crazed guys, go make your own games if you are not happy with the games as they are!
I don't want to see a SINGLE, BUGGY, STUPID MOD WITH IDIOTIC NATIONS LIKE ELVES OR ORCS FOR DOMINIONS II. IT RUINS A PERFECTLY GOOD GAME BY JUST EXISTING!

licker

September 25th, 2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Johan K:
/Illwinter's mod enemy #1Keep your faith bro!
You mod-crazed guys, go make your own games if you are not happy with the games as they are!
I don't want to see a SINGLE, BUGGY, STUPID MOD WITH IDIOTIC NATIONS LIKE ELVES OR ORCS FOR DOMINIONS II. IT RUINS A PERFECTLY GOOD GAME BY JUST EXISTING!<hr /></blockquote>LOL!!

Here's hoping they rename Caelum "The great nation of Flying Elves with pointed ears who live forever"

Oh and they can change all the sprites for every unit to the orc grunt from WarCraft 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 08:43 PM

Don't joke about serious issues.
Crap mods kill games.

Daynarr

September 25th, 2003, 08:44 PM

I'd say what Aaron has pretty strong dominion here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And it seems that Nerfix wants to start anti-LOTR cult too. It may be a good idea to add this theme to Marignon Empire because they will PURGE the world of all heretics and LOTR fans by fire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 19:45: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Mortifer

September 25th, 2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Don't joke about serious issues.
Crap mods kill games. Originally posted by Nerfix:
You mod-crazed guys, go make your own games if you are not happy with the games as they are!
I don't want to see a SINGLE, BUGGY, STUPID MOD WITH IDIOTIC NATIONS LIKE ELVES OR ORCS FOR DOMINIONS II. IT RUINS A PERFECTLY GOOD GAME BY JUST EXISTING!Seriously you should stop this. Mods are adding a lot to the games, also they are helping to keep the games ALIVE. Just check out the civ3 fanatics community for example. Or there are many other fine examples.

IF you dont like the mods, dont play with them.
You have no valid points. If someone is buying the game to 1. play 2. make his own little world with it, there is NOTHING wrong in it.
I tell you that what makes a game to be one of the best: IF EVERYONE WHO OWNS THE GAME IS PLEASED AND HAPPY WITH EACH AND EVERY PART OF IT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 20:01: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Kristoffer O

September 25th, 2003, 09:06 PM

The illwinter is a democratic season.

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by Daynarr:
And it seems that Nerfix wants to start anti-LOTR cult too. It may be a good idea to add this theme to Marignon Empire because they will PURGE the world of all heretics and LOTR fans by fire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Marignon is too nice. Make it Ermor. I am so evil.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
"I will HURT anybody who says WORD ELF ANYMORE with BANEFIRE!"
"E..."
*swoosh*
"ARARARARARARARARARAAAAAGGGHHH!"
*Muhahahahaaa..."

Oh wait... It would take too much time from my Dragon and Illwinter worshipping. Damn, blood slaves are so hard to come by nowadays!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 20:12: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

licker

September 25th, 2003, 09:11 PM

A little off topic maybe... but what is there exactly to hate about LOTR? Fine if you hate Tolkein and his books that's one thing. Whether or not you like the movies is another, but please realize that they are bringing the world of fantasy to a broader audience, and that to me is a good thing. Obviously there are obsesors about it (no worse than Star Wars though), but to get more people interested in elves, and orcs, and evil wizards, seems to me that would leed to more games with fantasy themes, more books, more movies... And most importantly more customers to pay the developers of these games, books, movies...

Ok 90% of them will suck, but 90% of them already suck, so would you rather have 10 good games or 100 good games? Its all a matter of scale...

Anyway, what is the complaint about elves and orcs? They are everywhere, they are in Dom 1 and probably in Dom2, even if they arn't directly called as such. Have you read Robert Jordan? Ok his books suck bad now, but he has orcs, he just calls them Trollocks (gee that's imaginative no?) He may not have elves per se, but he's got about every fantasy themed empire running around somewhere, even if he doesn't come right out and call them by a common name.

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 09:16 PM

I hate elves because they are forest-running treehugging uber-"human" militarist hippies. They are just so throughly disgusting.
Orcs because when there is Elves, there is Orcs to figth them.
From my experience, there is no Orcs in Dom I. Goblins, yes, but no orcs. And i can take Vanir, afterall, they have a bit diffrent kind of roots in mythology.

Daynarr

September 25th, 2003, 09:18 PM

It looks like some people are taking this topic TOO seriously. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 09:19 PM

Dominions is literaly a matter of faith to me.
It is taking a 50% of all my blood slaves, i wish they aren't wasted...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Kristoffer O

September 25th, 2003, 09:23 PM

There is nothing wrong with orcs. Some orcs have epic qualities, some are fun and some are plain stupid, which is also fun.

Everyone likes a good AD&D orc http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mortifer

September 25th, 2003, 09:24 PM

If you think a bit, you should know that the best would be to give us the chance to mod. Than everyone will be happy.

Maybe not Nerfix..but he is just a customer nothing more, nothing less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Oh and LotR is awesome, and AD&D as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 20:24: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 09:26 PM

Oh no, i am much more than a customer. I am a faithfull Cultist, and even more faithfull Lurker.
Seems that you are getting only 3 blood sacrifices this month. Oh well, almost whole Finland and Sweden is under your Dominion...

Johan K

September 25th, 2003, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Everyone likes a good AD&D orc http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Mmmmm... tastes like pork!

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 09:29 PM

Nononononoooo!
It's ADOM orc that tastes like pork!

[ September 25, 2003, 20:29: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

licker

September 25th, 2003, 09:42 PM

Well I'm still voting that Caelum has its name changed to "Generic Elf Nation". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Even though they arn't elves at all...

Maybe just change the turn processing screen into a little movie of an elf and orc doing the lambada together? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 09:43 PM

I'm in a mood of hurting myself and i have sharp objects near me...

LordArioch

September 25th, 2003, 10:09 PM

At least it's not a kobold..they make me sick. And they just keep strutting around thinking their cool.
... ... .k.
... .k. ...
k.. ... ...

I should play adom again...i was just about to kill the elder chaos god with my absurdly powerful champion of law and i sorta stopped...
And I was an ELF!!! or maybe a gnome...actually i think i was a gnome because nothing can compare to gnomes and elves.

I think modding would be acceptable certainly but I find it VERY rare that a user made mod is as good or better than even a decent game. I wouldnt do much more than look at any mods created if they removed units at all. I'm quite a fan of the Dominions nations/spells/units and their balance.

You mean Caelum aren't meant to be winged elves? But the winged elf race is awsome. And so are the Noldor (am I right? Is Noldor the race that Feanwe and Feanor and such belong to or am I not making sense). And Nerfix...my pretender in our PBEM is named from The Simarillion. Fingolfin is my favorite Tolkien elf. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 21:30: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

Aristoteles

September 25th, 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
If you think a bit, you should know that the best would be to give us the chance to mod. Than everyone will be happy.

Maybe not Nerfix..but he is just a customer nothing more, nothing less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Oh and LotR is awesome, and AD&D as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Yup. Please release modding tools. I want to make a LotR mod.

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
If you think a bit, you should know that the best would be to give us the chance to mod. Than everyone will be happy.

Maybe not Nerfix..but he is just a customer nothing more, nothing less. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Oh and LotR is awesome, and AD&D as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Yup. Please release modding tools. I want to make a LotR mod.<hr /></blockquote>I can bet that you posted that just to annyo me...

Mortifer

September 25th, 2003, 10:42 PM

LOL @ Nerfix. You are a very negative person, arent you?
If hes a LotR fan [me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ], and he want to make a LotR mod, what is your problem with that? *shrugs* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 21:43: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 10:46 PM

Elven Archers with 77 precision and Armor Negating bows. Oh, and of course it would be totaly balanced for you, because they are Elves and they have only 66613697 Hp, and that is mighty 1 Hp less than Elven Warrior has!

Pocus

September 25th, 2003, 10:50 PM

Nerfix, stay tuned, my first doms II map will be set in Tolkien's world.
Hide your joy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 10:55 PM

Rigth.
I would have never believed that Pocus will also go so deep that he will make map featuring Elves with ungodly stats.

I hate mods because they are always made by some wannabe-game-developper-1337's who can't even alphatest their mods, make half-assed, unbalanced changes, add some buggy extra sprites, and behave like kings of the world after they have finished their "great project".

Aristoteles

September 25th, 2003, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Elven Archers with 77 precision and Armor Negating bows. Oh, and of course it would be totaly balanced for you, because they are Elves and they have only 66613697 Hp, and that is mighty 1 Hp less than Elven Warrior has!Non of your business. Stop posting in this thread? You make no sense. No wonder that you are rated 2 stars. I gave you the worst rating now. You are an idiot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

MStavros

September 25th, 2003, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nerfix:
Elven Archers with 77 precision and Armor Negating bows. Oh, and of course it would be totaly balanced for you, because they are Elves and they have only 66613697 Hp, and that is mighty 1 Hp less than Elven Warrior has!Non of your business. Stop posting in this thread? You make no sense. No wonder that you are rated 2 stars. I gave you the worst rating now. You are an idiot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif <hr /></blockquote>I reckon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Nerfix

September 25th, 2003, 11:02 PM

Yeah whatever. I'm sure itching to see your migthy mod...
I have no delusions that i could ever make something actualy balanced, and i don't think that neither can you, and i have very litle faith on all you mod-dudez.
I will now stop posting in this thread, potentialy in the whole board because Shrapnel relase has atracted GFX worshipping whining idiots here.

PDF

September 25th, 2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Rigth.
I would have never believed that Pocus will also go so deep that he will make map featuring Elves with ungodly stats.

I hate mods because they are always made by some wannabe-game-developper-1337's who can't even alphatest their mods, make half-assed, unbalanced changes, add some buggy extra sprites, and behave like kings of the world after they have finished their "great project".No, that's not true in all cases : some MTW mods, EU1-2 mods, HoI Mods, SE4 mods, AOW mods, EFS mods, SPWaW mods, CC mods, and undoubtly other I either don't know of or have forgotten, are indeed BETTER than the vanilla game (and sometimes many times so) !
And I only talk about "rules" mods, many other games just benefit for additionnal/redone artwork.

Anyway noone forces anyone to use mods : you don't like them, then ignore them.
Mod-lovers/Modders just want to be able to mod, why bash them for it ? Illwinter will decide what openness they put in the game, it's pointless and somewhat trollish/stupid to ask for no moddability... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Edit : didn't read all of Nerfix' post before replying, Nerfix quit also ... Sad 'cause he was Dom2 betatester, a real fan and veteran, and had insights and ideas, but he was maybe somewhat too much intolerant...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ September 25, 2003, 22:39: Message edited by: PDF ]

Aristoteles

September 25th, 2003, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nerfix:
Rigth.
I would have never believed that Pocus will also go so deep that he will make map featuring Elves with ungodly stats.

I hate mods because they are always made by some wannabe-game-developper-1337's who can't even alphatest their mods, make half-assed, unbalanced changes, add some buggy extra sprites, and behave like kings of the world after they have finished their "great project".No, that's not true in all cases : some MTW mods, EU1-2 mods, HoI Mods, SE4 mods, AOW mods, EFS mods, SPWaW mods, CC mods, and undoubtly other I either don't know of or have forgotten, are indeed BETTER than the vanilla game (and sometimes many times so) !
And I only talk about "rules" mods, many other games just benefit for additionnal/redone artwork.

Anyway noone forces anyone to use mods : you don't like them, then ignore them.
Mod-lovers/Modders just want to be able to mod, why bash them for it ? Illwinter will decide what openness they put in the game, it's pointless and somewhat trollish/stupid to ask for no moddability... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Edit : didn't read all of Nerfix' post before replying, Nerfix quit also ... Sad 'cause he was Dom2 betatester, a real fan and veteran, and had insights and ideas, but he was maybe somewhat too much intolerant...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr /></blockquote>I agree with you. Well said.
As for Nerfix...he sounds like an idiot. Who cares, if he won't post.
All of his replies in this thread were full with idiotism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

licker

September 25th, 2003, 11:51 PM

Nerfix was not Dom2 betatester... he is good at ferreting out info from their Dom2 update log though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I don't think he'll really quit the forums for very long though, as he is a self described addict. I don't get the hostility towards mods and modders though, I mean you don't have to look at, let alone play, with any mods. I suppose an arguement could be made that the devs would spend too much time making the game more moddable, and less time finishing the game, but at this point I don't think thats a very strong arguement.

I dunno, mods are generally good things, most mods are crap, but theres always a few that manage to make the game more interesting for individual styles, besides I'd assume that most if not all MP is gonna be with Vanilla until people have had time to figure out any balance issues they feel are needed, and seemingly Illwinter is good at making many of those changes official anyway.

I'm hoping for greater ability to script and make maps, rather than all out modding though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mortifer

September 25th, 2003, 11:56 PM

Well er....Nerfix's replies werent very creative, I must admit that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
In fact...he had no points, that is true as well.
As I said, the best would be to allow the players to make mods, if they want, no players are forced to play with any mods.
Just think. A LotR mod for example, would be very interesting and useful, since lot of players are huge LotR fans.
Balance? If you spend enough time to balance your mod, it can be perfect.

To me this isnt a question. Players should be allowed to make their little world. Why to put in limits? If Illwinter will be able to release the tools, databases etc. than why not?
Mods are keeping the games and communities alive. Trust me in that.

Kristoffer O

September 25th, 2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
No, that's not true in all cases : some MTW mods, EU1-2 mods, HoI Mods, SE4 mods, AOW mods, EFS mods, SPWaW mods, CC mods, and undoubtly other I either don't know of or have forgotten, are indeed BETTER than the vanilla game (and sometimes many times so) !
And I only talk about "rules" mods, many other games just benefit for additionnal/redone artwork.

Anyway noone forces anyone to use mods : you don't like them, then ignore them.
Mod-lovers/Modders just want to be able to mod, why bash them for it ? Illwinter will decide what openness they put in the game, it's pointless and somewhat trollish/stupid to ask for no moddability... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Edit : didn't read all of Nerfix' post before replying, Nerfix quit also ... Sad 'cause he was Dom2 betatester, a real fan and veteran, and had insights and ideas, but he was maybe somewhat too much intolerant...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I havn't played much in the way of moddable games, but I surely like to mod. After all, thats what creating Dominions II is all about for me. I would probably try to mod other games as well if they were easily moddable. I do like to create new maps and scenarios in other games, but rarely finish what I do. It is generally more rewarding to change and add stuff in Dominions. Still ,I have put many hours into mapediting in other games and enjoyed every minute of it.

I am a bit scared of what people might do to my little game if it was freely moddable http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif , but on the other hand I believe most people would prefer to play on serious mods. Survival of the fittest so to speak. And if people like to create SP scenarios where balance is screwed I shouldn't worry (I tell myself).

Bard of Prey

September 25th, 2003, 11:59 PM

Modding also has a lot more uses than fixing balance and other issues. In fact, if modders are spending their time 'fixing' balance issues, then that's a sign that there's something deeply wrong with the game... and from what I've seen so far of Dom I, I don't think this is likely to be a problem for Dom II. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The real purpose of modding in a well-designed game should be to add things that the developers either never thought of, or didn't have time to implement. Having the creativity of hundreds of people to draw on can only improve a good game in the long run.

I would also like to see more options added to Dom II for modding, but the idea of waiting for a patch to get them doesn't bother me either. Think of all the things you could do with good modding tools... new nations, new pretender gods, new themes, etc. A group of dedicated modders could expand the variety of the game far more in a short time than a small number of developers could hope to do in years...

[Edit: @ Kristoffer, who slipped in ahead of me - I know exactly how you feel. I love to create new maps and scenarios for games, and in the Last year or two I've gotten pretty heavily into modding for various games. I also understand your fears about what people might do to your 'baby'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

All I can say is, give us the tools and we'll be gentle... we may even surprise you... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Oh, and since this is my first post here, I probably should have mentioned that I just recently found the Dom I demo, and I'm loving it. I'm very much looking forward to seeing what you do with Dom II... whether I get to gut it and mess around with its innards or not... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ]

[ September 25, 2003, 23:04: Message edited by: Bard of Prey ]

MStavros

September 26th, 2003, 12:06 AM

Yes, modding/editing is an awesome part of gaming. I have seen incredible mods, and they were lot better than the vanilla game, and they were perfectly balanced.
The developers must give us the ability to mod this wonderful game. It is fun for us, and fun for everyone. I am very happy that Aristoteles plan to make a LotR mod, I am a fan of the tolkien world as well.
The possibilites are endless, if the modding tools will be good enough.

More Diversity = More Fun

[ September 25, 2003, 23:07: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Kristoffer O

September 26th, 2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Well er....Nerfix's replies werent very creative, I must admit that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
In fact...he had no points, that is true as well.
As I said, the best would be to allow the players to make mods, if they want, no players are forced to play with any mods.
Just think. A LotR mod for example, would be very interesting and useful, since lot of players are huge LotR fans.
Balance? If you spend enough time to balance your mod, it can be perfect.

To me this isnt a question. Players should be allowed to make their little world. Why to put in limits? If Illwinter will be able to release the tools, databases etc. than why not?
Mods are keeping the games and communities alive. Trust me in that.Regarding LotR maps. There was one made for Dom I by a friend and internal betatester. I do not have the final mapfile, but I have played a MP on it. We were a bit scared of copyright issues and didn't place it on our site. Soon after that game was finished the first Dom II betatesting begun and so the War of the Ring map was all but forgotten. If there is an interest in a LotR Dom I map I can try to find it and send it to someone who can put it on an unofficial page where copyrights don't bother us.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mortifer

September 26th, 2003, 12:12 AM

Kristoffer, I think that it isnt illegal. There are lot of games with LotR mods, maps etc. Check out civfanatics for example, there are loads of maps, units etc. from LotR.
I will make a DoM II. mod fansite with own Boards, when we can start modding, so I will be able host the maps, unit gfx, etc.

Kristoffer O

September 26th, 2003, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by MStavros:

More Diversity = More FunThe motto of Illwinter. More units, more spells, more stuff = more fun. I assume you have to include diversity as well.

Kristoffer O

September 26th, 2003, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Bard of Prey:
I also understand your fears about what people might do to your 'baby'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

All I can say is, give us the tools and we'll be gentle... we may even surprise you... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

That remark earned you five stars!

Mortifer

September 26th, 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bard of Prey:
I also understand your fears about what people might do to your 'baby'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

All I can say is, give us the tools and we'll be gentle... we may even surprise you... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

That remark earned you five stars!<hr /></blockquote>Aye. Im with him in that of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Aristoteles

September 26th, 2003, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
.
I will make a DoM II. mod fansite with own Boards, when we can start modding, so I will be able host the maps, unit gfx, etc.YAY! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
A site with Phpnuke would be excellent! You can rate everything in it, posting comments directly, etc. etc.

Mortifer

September 26th, 2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
.
I will make a DoM II. mod fansite with own Boards, when we can start modding, so I will be able host the maps, unit gfx, etc.YAY! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
A site with Phpnuke would be excellent! You can rate everything in it, posting comments directly, etc. etc.<hr /></blockquote>Hrm, that sounds like a good idea. I have no idea that how to setup PhpNuke, but my host supports PhP + MySQL as well, so that shouldnt be a problem.
Er but first, let us wait for DOM II, and the mod tools. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Bard of Prey

September 26th, 2003, 12:27 AM

@ Kristoffer and Mortifier - Thanks guys! I think I might have just broken a record for quickest 5 star rating... (I've been registered on the board for about 20 minutes... lol).

About this though...

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Kristoffer, I think that it isnt illegal. There are lot of games with LotR mods, maps etc. Check out civfanatics for example, there are loads of maps, units etc. from LotR.
I will make a DoM II. mod fansite with own Boards, when we can start modding, so I will be able host the maps, unit gfx, etc.I think they may have good reason to be wary... from what I understand, the Tolkien estate is quite aggressive about protecting its copyrights. It may be that 'unofficial' mods slip under their radar from time to time, but I also notice that with the new movies, they've started licensing out the rights to make computer games based on LOTR like crazy. That may make them a bit more anxious about non-licensed developers making 'official' LOTR maps and mods...

For an individual not connected with the developer, you're probably safe. The worst that's likely to happen is you get a 'cease and desist' order telling you to take the mod down. A game developer (or publisher) is more likely to get sued...

Aristoteles

September 26th, 2003, 12:43 AM

Yup, developers must avoid from things like that. We, independent players are very different. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks Mortifer, I can help you, if you will setup a site with phpnuke.
Damn, I can't wait for DOM II, and of course: the modding tools! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Pocus

September 28th, 2003, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by PDF:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nerfix:
Rigth.
I would have never believed that Pocus will also go so deep that he will make map featuring Elves with ungodly stats.

I hate mods because they are always made by some wannabe-game-developper-1337's who can't even alphatest their mods, make half-assed, unbalanced changes, add some buggy extra sprites, and behave like kings of the world after they have finished their "great project".No, that's not true in all cases : some MTW mods, EU1-2 mods, HoI Mods, SE4 mods, AOW mods, EFS mods, SPWaW mods, CC mods, and undoubtly other I either don't know of or have forgotten, are indeed BETTER than the vanilla game (and sometimes many times so) !
And I only talk about "rules" mods, many other games just benefit for additionnal/redone artwork.

Anyway noone forces anyone to use mods : you don't like them, then ignore them.
Mod-lovers/Modders just want to be able to mod, why bash them for it ? Illwinter will decide what openness they put in the game, it's pointless and somewhat trollish/stupid to ask for no moddability... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Edit : didn't read all of Nerfix' post before replying, Nerfix quit also ... Sad 'cause he was Dom2 betatester, a real fan and veteran, and had insights and ideas, but he was maybe somewhat too much intolerant...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr /></blockquote>Nerfix : Your problem lie in Tolkien stories then. What does it bother you that Elven Lords are so powerful? They are being directly created by a god. I suppose the whole heroic fantasy them bother you then. Why you would accept more the existence of powerful demons, and not elves then?
so in essence, mocking at the power of elves, dwarves, whatever, is totally illogical for a guy which like heroic fantasy like you do.

Nerfix

September 28th, 2003, 09:09 AM

Perhaps because i have this huge pentagram in my basement...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

And as far as my knowledge goes, Elves are just mortals. Well, immortals, but i think they
can be killed, even though i don't remember that any Elves would die in World's Offical Tar-Drinking Boo...errrr... I mean LoTR.

And as far as i know, i'm not a "heroic fantasy guy".

[ September 28, 2003, 08:11: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Aristoteles

September 28th, 2003, 09:48 AM

Who cares, that what is Nerfix's problem? Frankly, I don't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif
Why the heck is he still posting in this topic?
Mindless person. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Nerfix

September 28th, 2003, 10:16 AM

What is your problem?
Can't you accept that some people dislike mods, LoTR and the combination of those two?

And i don't care about your problems either. "Bad" GFX and lack of modding are the two most pathetic things to whine about, especialy if the game is as good game as Dominions II is.

[ September 28, 2003, 09:24: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Kristoffer O

September 28th, 2003, 10:45 AM

What is it with you two?

As a developer I am more interested in hearing the pros and cons of modding than hearing insults and accusations. Please, try to be civil.

Mortifer

September 28th, 2003, 11:56 AM

Stop flaming! I must admit one thing. Nerfix had no points, that why modding is bad. He don't like it. Period.
Nerfix, if you cannot post anything constructive here, than please stop visiting this thread. Aristoteles is right about this. You told us 10 times that you don't like modding. We know it, you don't have to worry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Kristoffer - You heard lot of opinions that why modding is good, I don't think that we need more examples.

Why modding is good? Let's see:

- Giving a long life to the games. [Example civ3.]
- More diversity
- Creative, good, enjoyable mods are making the game LOT more fun
- You can make your own little word, you arent forced the play in the original game world
- No limits, do what you want! Release your mod to the public, discuss about it with the others, let others to help you making it even better, or just keep it yourself! All is up to you.
- Balance what you want. You dont like something? Change it! Why not?

Lot of pros! If someone will release a bad mod, what is the problem with that? You download it, try it out...if its bad you can deleting, or just make comments/suggestions about it, that what should be fixed/updated.
Modding is giving the biggest fun for gaming communities. That is no question.

If there are players, like Nerfix, who dont like the mods, why is that a problem at all? They wont download and play mods, big deal. That isnt the modders problem.

[ September 28, 2003, 10:59: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Nerfix

September 28th, 2003, 12:29 PM

Illwinter, do you realy want to see your game, the fruit of your hard work being raped just like that? It is your game, you don't need to give up to all these mod-dudez.
For the cons of modding:
-They make the life of MP players hard, and Dominions II is all about multiplaying
-Do you need mods? I understand mods that fix balance issues IF the developpers themselves don't want to fix them. A well balanced game doesn't need mods that would fix balance issues.
-It is their game, not yours. Make your own games if you don't like Dominions II!

I could actualy use mods if they would offer me something, like negleted balance fixes because the developpers "have worked almost 4 hours per day with this game!!!". IMHO, Dominions II doesn't need mods, if you are unhappy with Dominions II, make your own game, and that making non-modable games is a show of willpower and courage in these days of warez,haxors and modz.
If you keep the game un-modable, i'll be very proud of you. But it is your game, the result of your hard work, you can do anything with it.

Zerger

September 28th, 2003, 12:30 PM

I vote for modding indeed! I love to play with mods, for all games. There are many mods with outstanding quality.
We need mods in Dominions 2. Please release the tools for it.

Zerger

September 28th, 2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Illwinter, do you realy want to see your game, the fruit of your hard work being raped just like that? It is your game, you don't need to give up to all these mod-dudez.
For the cons of modding:
-They make the life of MP players hard, and Dominions II is all about multiplaying
-Do you need mods? I understand mods that fix balance issues IF the developpers themselves don't want to fix them. A well balanced game doesn't need mods that would fix balance issues.
-It is their game, not yours. Make your own games if you don't like Dominions II!

I could actualy use mods if they would offer me something, like negleted balance fixes because the developpers "have worked almost 4 hours per day with this game!!!". IMHO, Dominions II doesn't need mods, if you are unhappy with Dominions II, make your own game, and that making non-modable games is a show of willpower and courage in these days of warez,haxors and modz.
If you keep the game un-modable, i'll be very proud of you. But it is your game, the result of your hard work, you can do anything with it.You are a fool without valid points. I agree with the others. Stop posting your uber BS here.
I rated you for 1 star as well now. You must be either very young, or just a mere fool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

johan osterman

September 28th, 2003, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Zerger:
I vote for modding indeed! I love to play with mods, for all games. There are many mods with outstanding quality.
We need mods in Dominions 2. Please release the tools for it.There are no tools as such, so in order for tools to be released they will have to be made from scratch.

johan osterman

September 28th, 2003, 12:48 PM

*deleted double post*

[ September 28, 2003, 11:49: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Nerfix

September 28th, 2003, 12:49 PM

Oh sure i am young, but i am also an idealist.
WE, i'll now leave this thread and suggest that you change this threads name to "The Dominions II raping thread".
You are just so pissed off because you may actualy NOT get your modding tools.
You sicken me, you all sicken me deeply.

[ September 28, 2003, 11:56: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Aristoteles

September 28th, 2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zerger:
I vote for modding indeed! I love to play with mods, for all games. There are many mods with outstanding quality.
We need mods in Dominions 2. Please release the tools for it.There are no tools as such, so in order for tools to be released they will have to be made from scratch.<hr /></blockquote>It will be hard work to release such tools? I am sure that the players will be patient, and wait for it, whenever it will be released. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Oh sure i am young, but i am also an idealist.
WE, i'll now leave this thread and suggest that you change this threads name to "The Dominions II raping thread".
You are just so pissed off because you may actualy NOT get your modding tools.
You sicken me, you all sicken me deeply.Actually, YOU are sick. I never ever seen such a mindless person like you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ September 28, 2003, 11:58: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Aristoteles

September 28th, 2003, 02:00 PM

I agree. Unit/Nation/God editors are what we need first of all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
Spell Editor! WooT! That would rock! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

PDF

September 28th, 2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
What kinds of modding tools do you prefer (in order of importance). We can make a poll when we have a number of suggestions.

Tools for remaking nations seems popular and is probably not too difficult to implement.

Adding monsters is already possible, but only in scearios. Probably more interesting if combined with a nationmodder.

Other mods such as unit editing is more difficult to implement.

What good mods are there in other games. We will need to delve into this and might need some guidance.New nations without corresponding units won't be that useful ... IMHO the best that can be done is to allow the current "monster edit" to work with standard games. Then modders would just need ability to rename "national stuff" to make the world they want. The maps are already moddable/editable isn't it ?
And anyway the best "modding tools" are *no* tools, but external data files (text for all units/rules/script stuff, gif or other for gfx, wav/mp3 for sound/music, etc...).
Best examples of that moddability are TW series or Europa Universalis series, they sport very good mods and fan-made tools http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And Hi Nerfix http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !

Mortifer

September 28th, 2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
And anyway the best "modding tools" are *no* tools, but external data files (text for all units/rules/script stuff, gif or other for gfx, wav/mp3 for sound/music, etc...).
That is a good idea as well, dbase files to edit the pretenders/units/nation etc. Also we could just link the gfx files to the units. Voila its lot more simple for the devs, but a bit harder for the modders. Of course good modders cant be bothered by that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The key is that we need the ability to edit pretenders/nations/units...its up to the devs, that how. An additional spell etc. editor would be a great addidtion indeed, but it is not that neccesary.

[ September 28, 2003, 13:21: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Aristoteles

September 28th, 2003, 02:28 PM

Hrm, one more thing. We need a 'mod launcher' or something like that, if that will be possible.
Example: We modify the game files, but all of those could be placed in a new directory! We could choose out, that what mod to play with that way, without overwriting the game files themselves.

Zerger

September 28th, 2003, 02:37 PM

I love to mod with database files! Its the real oldschool type of modding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
Btw I agree with Aristoteles. A mod loader would be excellent. I dont think that it will be hard to script.

Pocus

September 28th, 2003, 02:38 PM

The fact is that a vast majority of players like the *possibility* of modding a game. Not for them, but for the 0.01 % of players which will try to modify the game. The debate of open games versus closed ones has been raging for years, but very few people still think that he has to be proven that mods are good for a games, and for the studio behind it(just go to game sites like gamedev.net ,gamasutra.com, the newsGroups on game design, etc., nobody would dare pretends that modding is bad for a game!). Just think Half Life and Counter strike (FPS), Neverwinter night (RPG) big fan community, which led to tremendous increase in selling (more than 4000 fan modules and universes have been done, with more and more player attracted), Civilization I, II, III (I think it has not to be proven that the huge fan communities helped these games be so 'persistent' on a market which is rather transient.

Often it has nothing to do with game balancing. Thats just that you cant have a game witch cover all topics and sub genres of a given genre. Be it Middle Earth or Melnibonee, you have nation names and definitions which are not covered by the actual dominions game. The point of the modder here would be to design scenarios which are more faifthful to the world they are working one. It has nothing to do with the scheme of reaping Illwinter of their good work.

The thing most needed is perhaps the ability to modify unit stats, create new ones, and add them to a nation.
Modding of a nation too goes with that.

[ September 28, 2003, 13:40: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Zerger

September 28th, 2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
Just think Half Life and Counter strike (FPS), Neverwinter night (RPG) big fan community, which led to tremendous increase in selling (more than 4000 fan modules and universes have been done, with more and more player attracted), Civilization I, II, III (I think it has not to be proven that the huge fan communities helped these games be so 'persistent' on a market which is rather transient.
How true.

Mortifer

September 28th, 2003, 02:49 PM

Aye, I am also sure that the ability of modding will increase the # of the sold copies.
As Pocus said, modding is attracting more and more people, also its fun to play in different game worlds, and not just in the original.

PS.
More than 100 replies in the thread alrady! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ September 28, 2003, 14:02: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

MStavros

September 28th, 2003, 04:41 PM

/me vote for modding tools of course.

What do we need?
Unit editor, race(nation)editor, god(pretender) editor, hero editor.
All other editing tools are just +++ for us. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 28, 2003, 15:42: Message edited by: MStavros ]

st.patrik

September 28th, 2003, 04:44 PM

Wow, I'm kinda shocked with how vicious you guys are being with Nerflix. Sure he expressed his viewpoint a bit too strongly, but that's no reason to call the guy names. And I think he has made a positive contribution to these Boards - I rate him 4 stars

With regard to modding, when it comes to a saleable feature modding has a lot of pull - people love to tweak something which they can actually play - 'see their name in lights' syndrome. So I think it may increase the desirability of the game to most people.

Nonetheless I would prefer not to see it happen. Not because I don't like elves, orcs, etc., but because about 0.1% of mods are worth downloading - I think modding is mainly itching a different scratch from playing a good game, if that makes sense. In other words, the satisfaction and enjoyment from playing a good game is one thing, and the satisfaction from creating your own little world is another thing. What I'm saying is that it's pretty much an illusion that adding moddability will in any way enhance gameplay.

That, of course, doesn't mean modding is bad - I just hate playing a ton of crappy mods and would happily just play the carefully engineered and well-tested game that Dominions II will be.

Just my opinion - don't flame me just because you disagree.

MStavros

September 28th, 2003, 04:50 PM

I strongly disagree with you. 0.1% of the mods are worth to download? You must be kidding. I play many mods for many games, I barely even play with the vanilla games. Mods are super. Yes, there are bad mods, so what? You won't play with bad mods. Who will?
The point behind modding is that you can design what you want to see and to play with, using the engine of the game. Simple as that. If the others will like your mod, its just a +++ to the community. Think about that.

As for Nerfix, he sounds like an idiot, I reckon. His opinion is ridicolous and nonsense about modding. 1 star for him. Ooops I already gave him 1 star a few days ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
14 persons used the voting system to rate Nerfix...Hes got 2 stars...I think at least 8 voted with 1 star? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ September 28, 2003, 15:53: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Nerfix

September 28th, 2003, 05:01 PM

Have you played Dominions more than 2 times? Have you played it at all? I have dedicated my life to Dominions, i have played it for something like 2 years, and i knew immediatedly when i got the demo that this game was unique. I and my friends have our own webpage and Boards, and i have watched the progress of Dominions II from the beginning. I have spent countless nights thinking what will become of Dominions II.
Is it so horrible that someone actualy like this game the way it is, even with its "horrible", "ugly" GFx?
This game is literaly holy to me. I don't want to see it being destroyed, but my worst nigthmares are turning true.

Every damn passing day these Boards sicken me more and more, and that is because of you whining GFx worshipping Tolkien fanatics! I hate you all, i couldn't care less what you rate, i'm leaving these Boards NOW and i think i migth return if Dominions II will not trun out to be some beer and pretzel game!
Goodbye!

[ September 28, 2003, 16:05: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

DominionsFan

September 28th, 2003, 05:01 PM

WOW! Dominions 2. will be moddable? COOL! WOW! Imagine! Tolkien or Warhammer mods! I C.A.N.T W.A.I.T! I want Dominions II. now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

MStavros

September 28th, 2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Have you played Dominions more than 2 times? Have you played it at all? I have dedicated my life to Dominions, i have played it for something like 2 years, and i knew immediatedly when i got the demo that this game was unique. I and my friends have our own webpage and Boards, and i have watched the progress of Dominions II from the beginning. I have spent countless nights thinking what will become of Dominions II.
Is it so horrible that someone actualy like this game the way it is, even with its "horrible", "ugly" GFx?
This game is literaly holy to me. I don't want to see it being destroyed, but my worst nigthmares are turning true.Dude, nothing will be destroyed. Can you tell us, that what the #$%^&*( are you talking about? You are not forced to download and play any mods, you...*insert bad words here*
I can't belive that this kid is so stupid.

As someone suggested, do not even load this thread, you are just making us mad and angry with your stupid replies.
Stpatrick - This is lot more than disagreement. Nerfix cannot tell us anything wrong about modding. 'He just don't like modding'. Shrugs....
Leave this god damned thread Nerfix, you are making no sense.

[ September 28, 2003, 16:07: Message edited by: MStavros ]

DominionsFan

September 28th, 2003, 05:10 PM

UMMMM, Nerfix is a typical troublemaker. Ignore him.
1 star for him.

st.patrik

September 28th, 2003, 05:17 PM

Ok, so maybe 0.1% is an exageration - but honestly something like 1% or 2%, in my experience. Of course there is an inversely proportional relationship between how good the original game/scenario is and how worthwhile the mods are - if the original NEEDS tweaking, then mods can be a really good thing. I suspect if people are no longer playing vanilla it's because vanilla needed something that a mod added. I definitely don't think that's the case with Dominions.

And Nerflix - I agree with you in being opposed to mods, but you are stating the case too strongly saying that having the ability to mod will ruin the game - it will still be possible to play "vanilla" Dominions and ignore the mod world.

MStavros

September 28th, 2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by st.patrik:
but you are stating the case too strongly saying that having the ability to mod will ruin the game - it will still be possible to play "vanilla" Dominions and ignore the mod world.Yes, this is what he can't understand with his 70 IQ I guess.
As for the rest, you don't see the point behind modding as well. Mods aren't made only to fix the balance, the best mods are totally different from the original game. It is a GOOD thing.
If someone says that its bad, its sounds abnormal to me, sorry. Why? Because as someone mentioned, more diversity = more fun. Got it?

st.patrik

September 28th, 2003, 05:43 PM

ok, so I don't want to get into a huge pointless argument here - I'm quite happy to agree to disagree, but here is maybe the key issue:

you say (or rather quote) more diversity = more fun, whereas I think while diversity can contribute to something being fun, it is in no way a sufficient condition to make something fun - much more important is careful design and balancing. Some of the best games of all time are incredibly simple - hardly any diversity at all. So I don't agree that more diversity necessarily equals more fun.

Honestly I think (without getting too philosophical on you all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) that valuing diversity so highly is one of the most foolish things about our postmodern culture - we value diversity more highly than it deserves - it is almost the sole criterion for determining worth. exhibit a: this whole discussion about modding.

However, such philosophical musing are somewhat irrelevant, because what it comes down to is Illwinter deciding whether or not they like the idea of modding. You want them to, I don't want them to, we'll see what they decide. I guess I'm willing to leave it there.

[ September 28, 2003, 16:46: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Richard

September 28th, 2003, 05:46 PM

Okay guys time out.

Just because some folks mod the game doesn't mean it will be ruined. Most people play SE:IV plain vanilla and it has a thriving community. But if some folks want to tinker, why the friction. Letting people have it their way is what grows a community, not threatens it.

MythicalMino

September 28th, 2003, 06:51 PM

I don't know....SE4's modding....some of the mods, i really like....

Dominions...I doubt I would ever really mess with any mods for it, cause the game itself is just so much what I have looked for in a fantasy tbs game.

Having said that, I don't think modding will ruin it...but, many of you are all pissed at Nerfix, calling him names, cause he doesn't want mods, and he may have called you names...

He doesn't want mods....you do....does that make you better? more superior? does that make him better? more superior? no...but I will say this, Nerfix has studied this game for quite some time...you can't trash that....illwinter respects him for his hard work and dedication to the game...you cannot trash that....

I think it shows your own foolishness to bash him...you are pointing out your own determination for modding, just as he is for no modding....

stupid arguement really....

(i do think that modding WILL add to the ppl wanting to buy the game. that could be a good thing, or a bad thing...will ppl want to buy the game for the game itself, or just so they can "change" things? sure sells are good....but what at what expense to the original "work of art"...ALSO, if Dominions is made primarily for MP, modding WILL make MP games a bit more tougher to play....think about it....)

[ September 28, 2003, 17:54: Message edited by: cpbeller ]

Pocus

September 28th, 2003, 09:29 PM

I disagree with the fact that modding can be an annoyance, because you find more often than not crappy mods.
Lets take the Paradox serie of game, starting with Europa Universalis, ending with Heart of Iron. There is only a few mods available, which asks for much work from several fans. If you are a bit serious, before trying a mod, you goes to the modding forum, and at least browse what is here. For exemple in HoI there is mainly 2 mods, which are Nighty Road to war, and Steel CORE mod. Within some minutes you should know which one fit you the best (I prefer Core btw!).

Or goes to the SE IV forum, to speak a bit about a Shrapnel game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . You'll find plenty of mod, AST, Proportion Mod, TDM mod, etc. This is really easy to get the one which will please you. For the content, reading a readme, or browsing the forum is sufficient. For the quality, browse again the forum, and you will rapidly see if the fans talk happily of the mod.

So ... the ones which are saying that mods are a pain in the rear because you always get crappy things ought to be a bit more involved in a the fan's community of the game they are playing, and they will soon knows how the game evolves, and by whom.

my 0.02 euros.

Mortifer

September 28th, 2003, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Richard:
Okay guys time out.

Just because some folks mod the game doesn't mean it will be ruined. Most people play SE:IV plain vanilla and it has a thriving community. But if some folks want to tinker, why the friction. Letting people have it their way is what grows a community, not threatens it.Amen to that.

Lads, lets make it simple. Some of you do not like modding. You wont download mods.
Some of us like modding. We will download mods, and play with them. Propably we will have long and nice conversations about them.
I dont think that anyone disrespect Nerfix. However his comments are very childish and ignorant. That is not very good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

On a final note: I think that mods are adding huge value to any games, just check out the moddable games and their communities...That is the best proof, that why modding is good.

[ September 28, 2003, 20:46: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Aristoteles

September 28th, 2003, 09:55 PM

cpbeller - Nerfix doesn't doing anything, he is asking questions, and making some idiotic comments. He totally sounds like an ignorant kid, if you ask me. (I think many of you have noticed this.)
Personally I don't care, but he posted too much BS here. Enough is enough you know.
The problem is that he doesn't had a single valid point in this case, just for example..making absolutely no sense to me.
He made a fansite, so what? I can make a site like that in 1 hour. We all love this game, he cannot post BS without consequences.

[ September 28, 2003, 20:56: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Mortifer

September 28th, 2003, 10:02 PM

Ok no more flaming please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
This thread is about suggestions and stuff. I think that we passed the 'I like the idea of modding and you dont' case....

If any of you have suggestions, that what modding tools we will need, just post them.
However I think that everyone will agree that first of all we need the unit/nation/pretender modding tool, or a proper database editor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Bard of Prey

September 28th, 2003, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
What kinds of modding tools do you prefer (in order of importance). We can make a poll when we have a number of suggestions.

Tools for remaking nations seems popular and is probably not too difficult to implement.

Adding monsters is already possible, but only in scearios. Probably more interesting if combined with a nationmodder.

Other mods such as unit editing is more difficult to implement.

What good mods are there in other games. We will need to delve into this and might need some guidance.All of what you're thinking of so far sounds good. IMHO, the most important thing isn't the tools, it's getting the relevant data out of the code and into external files (text files usually being easiest). Dedicated modders will figure out ways to put it all together, and some will have enough programming experience to write their own utilities for installation and mod-switching, etc. (although it's always preferable if the devs do this themselves, especially for MP purposes).

In fact, if the tools themselves are slightly 'user unfriendly', this can actually have a beneficial effect on the overall quality of mods... you won't have hordes of neophytes releasing untested mods that they whipped out in 10 minutes with an editor, you'll have a smaller number of intelligent, dedicated people who produce quality work. Of course, there's no need to make things difficult on purpose, but there's not really a burning need to produce a slick program for it either.

One of the few things that MOO3 did (almost) right was to externalize just about everything in Excel-based tables, saved as .txt files. This allows anybody with a text editor to make whatever changes they like to the data. In many cases the structure even supports extending the tables, or even creating new ones with the right format. They also had a structure where the default game files were stored in compressed folders, and the program would look for similar files in uncompressed subfolders, and over-ride the defaults if it found any. This allows for easy installation and removal of mods without over-writing the main game files (especially handy for MP). For examples of the kinds of mods that are possible in a system like that, you might check out MOO3Mods.com (http://www.moo3mods.com/index.php).

The problem is, this kind of open-ended modding is easiest to implement if it's part of the original design... having no knowledge of how you've set up the current game code, I have no idea how easy it would be to put it in now, or in a patch.

As for which specific items to put in first, my personal preference is for a system that allows you to not only tweak stats, but also to add completely new elements to the game (which also includes the ability to change pretty much everything about the existing ones). In other words: new units (basically the capability that's already there, plus the ability to assign units to be buildable by certain nations/independents); new nations (and new themes for these, as well as for the standard nations); new spells; new items; new special dominon effects (assuming these are treated separately from themes); the ability to remove standard elements (pretty trivial to accomplish once the rest is done); new graphics (this isn't my personal main area of concern, but it might be necessary for new units and nations), etc. That's more or less in (my own) order of importance.

Obviously, I don't expect that all of this will be trivial to implement (or necessarily even possible at this point), but you did ask for wish-lists... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

On the subject of whether to include 'moddability' or not in the first place, I think all the relevant arguments have already been made (and re-made, etc.). I will say that, from a publisher/developer point of view, modding only enhances the value of your product. It not only increases the initial appeal (it's a very nice thing to have on your list of features these days), but it greatly extends the lifespan of the product. Even well-designed programs benefit from the ability to be constantly refreshed by the input of new ideas (in fact, I'd say that they benefit even more than poorly-designed products that mods just can't save in the long run... I'll refrain from giving examples here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

From a player perspective, it's a win-win situation. If you're happy with the vanilla game, you can happily keep playing it as long as you like, and there's no need for you to even be aware that mods exist, secure in the knowledge that (for technical reasons) the vast majority of MP games will be played with the unmodded game anyway. If you have a hankering for a game with a different 'theme', but the same basic gameplay, then you can try out some mods, or build your own. The argument that the very existence of mods 'makes MP more difficult' is completely specious... it does no such thing. In fact, the opposite is true... the existence of MP makes modding more difficult, since odds are that the community as a whole will not want the same mod running, thus most MP games (at least those where you play large numbers of people, or total strangers) will have to be with the unmodded game. If there's a relatively simple means of installing mods, and of reverting to the default settings, then both needs are satisfied quite easily.

Sorry for the excessively long post, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart for a variety of reasons... I should point out though, that on the strength of what I've seen of Dom I, none of the above would be necessary for me to enjoy Dom II... but any of it would be more than welcome. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Edit: I forgot to mention new Pretenders! Hopefully that was implied by the combination of new nations/new units... if not, then add them too... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ]

[ September 28, 2003, 21:07: Message edited by: Bard of Prey ]

st.patrik

September 28th, 2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
I dont think that anyone disrespect Nerfix. However his comments are very childish and ignorant. That is not very good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif I wish you guys would just drop it - in one breath you say you don't disrespect Nerflix, in the next you're calling him all kinds of names, disparaging his comments - I don't care whether you do or don't respect Nerflix or his comments, but I see no need to bash the guy.

to ask a question relevant to the thread: what are the top mods you would want to make, if Dom II becomes moddable - your own fantasy worlds, or stuff based on Tolkien, AD&D�other pseudo-historical nations?

st.patrik

September 28th, 2003, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Bard of Prey:
On the subject of whether to include 'moddability' or not in the first place, I think all the relevant arguments have already been made (and re-made, etc.). I will say that, from a publisher/developer point of view, modding only enhances the value of your product. It not only increases the initial appeal (it's a very nice thing to have on your list of features these days), but it greatly extends the lifespan of the product. Even well-designed programs benefit from the ability to be constantly refreshed by the input of new ideas (in fact, I'd say that they benefit even more than poorly-designed products that mods just can't save in the long run... I'll refrain from giving examples here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ).

From a player perspective, it's a win-win situation. If you're happy with the vanilla game, you can happily keep playing it as long as you like, and there's no need for you to even be aware that mods exist, secure in the knowledge that (for technical reasons) the vast majority of MP games will be played with the unmodded game anyway. If you have a hankering for a game with a different 'theme', but the same basic gameplay, then you can try out some mods, or build your own. The argument that the very existence of mods 'makes MP more difficult' is completely specious... it does no such thing. In fact, the opposite is true... the existence of MP makes modding more difficult, since odds are that the community as a whole will not want the same mod running, thus most MP games (at least those where you play large numbers of people, or total strangers) will have to be with the unmodded game. If there's a relatively simple means of installing mods, and of reverting to the default settings, then both needs are satisfied quite easily.

very well put

Mortifer

September 28th, 2003, 11:05 PM

Aye well said Bard.
If my english would be good enough, I would post like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

What mods will we create? Well if we can edit units/nations/pretenders, there will be no limits.
Tolkien world, AD&D, Warhammer etc.
My personal favourite is Middle Earth of course.
The War of the Ring would be the best era for a mod. [Mordor, Isengard, Gondor, Lorien, Fangorn etc. for the nations.]

[ September 28, 2003, 22:09: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Zerger

September 28th, 2003, 11:21 PM

Hell yea! Tolkien's Middle Earth is the best!
Perhaps we should make a team to make the mod?
After we can mod of course. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Richard

September 28th, 2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by st.patrik:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
I dont think that anyone disrespect Nerfix. However his comments are very childish and ignorant. That is not very good. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif I wish you guys would just drop it - in one breath you say you don't disrespect Nerflix, in the next you're calling him all kinds of names, disparaging his comments - I don't care whether you do or don't respect Nerflix or his comments, but I see no need to bash the guy.

to ask a question relevant to the thread: what are the top mods you would want to make, if Dom II becomes moddable - your own fantasy worlds, or stuff based on Tolkien, AD&D�other pseudo-historical nations?<hr /></blockquote>I agree. There is no need to call other folks names to make a point. Everyone has stated their views on this issue, let's keep it to that, the issue at hand.

Thanks.

Richard

September 28th, 2003, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
cpbeller - Nerfix doesn't doing anything, he is asking questions, and making some idiotic comments. He totally sounds like an ignorant kid, if you ask me. (I think many of you have noticed this.)
Personally I don't care, but he posted too much BS here. Enough is enough you know.
The problem is that he doesn't had a single valid point in this case, just for example..making absolutely no sense to me.
He made a fansite, so what? I can make a site like that in 1 hour. We all love this game, he cannot post BS without consequences.Okay, again, let's drop the attacks.

Either post with civility or accept the consequences. We are all adults here, if you have a complaint with a poaster take it to PM's or drop me a line.

Bard of Prey

September 28th, 2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Aye well said Bard.
If my english would be good enough, I would post like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Heh... you should catch me first thing in the morning before I've had my first cup of coffee... my english isn't great in those circumstances either... and I don't even have another language to fall back on... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Originally posted by Mortifer:
What mods will we create? Well if we can edit units/nations/pretenders, there will be no limits.
Tolkien world, AD&D, Warhammer etc.
My personal favourite is Middle Earth of course.
The War of the Ring would be the best era for a mod. [Mordor, Isengard, Gondor, Lorien, Fangorn etc. for the nations.]All of these are good ideas. Personally, I've always wanted to do a Middle Earth mod featuring something other than the War of the Ring (which wasn't so much a war as an RPG-style adventure/quest... hard to replicate well in a strategy game)... maybe the Last Alliance, or the battle between the Valar and Morgoth. The Fall of Numenor could provide an interesting scenario as well... the possibilities are endless... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Kristoffer O

September 29th, 2003, 01:24 AM

What kinds of modding tools do you prefer (in order of importance). We can make a poll when we have a number of suggestions.

Tools for remaking nations seems popular and is probably not too difficult to implement.

Adding monsters is already possible, but only in scearios. Probably more interesting if combined with a nationmodder.

Other mods such as unit editing is more difficult to implement.

What good mods are there in other games. We will need to delve into this and might need some guidance.

Mortifer

September 29th, 2003, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
What kinds of modding tools do you prefer (in order of importance). We can make a poll when we have a number of suggestions.

Tools for remaking nations seems popular and is probably not too difficult to implement.

Adding monsters is already possible, but only in scearios. Probably more interesting if combined with a nationmodder.

Other mods such as unit editing is more difficult to implement.

What good mods are there in other games. We will need to delve into this and might need some guidance.We need the following tools, in my opinion:

Must have editors:
1. Nation editor
2. Unit editor
3. Mod tool to add/remove units for the nations
4. Pretender editor

The following editos arent necessary, but would be awesome to have:

1. Spell editor [Guess this would require scripting, but if someone can do it, why not?]
2. The ability to add/remove spells -> This could allow pure medieval mods for example
3. Interface editor -> To change the layout

If you want to see good mods, go to www.civfanatics.com (http://www.civfanatics.com) for example. -> Lot of awesome mods there for civilzation games. Examples: Gouble your Pleasure, Fantasy Empires etc.
Or just check out the [local] Space Empires 4. mods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 28, 2003, 12:50: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

MStavros

September 29th, 2003, 08:58 AM

Indeed. I for one want to see a Tolkien mod first of all. I will help to make unit graphics for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Zerger

September 29th, 2003, 09:37 AM

Yes, we need that Tolkien mod/scenario. I want to kick some *** with the Uruk-Hai! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Mortifer

September 29th, 2003, 10:24 AM

Don't worry, if we can mod, we will work on a LotR mod first of all, as I said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
We will need a good Middle Earth map, so post links, if you know about some. More detailed = better.

Daynarr

September 29th, 2003, 10:42 AM

Larger = better too. Larger then 800x600 would be best.

Pocus

September 29th, 2003, 11:45 AM

I have big maps of Middle Earth, or even Arda. And when I say big, I mean it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

My aim is to make a War of Beleriand scenario, but I will surely wait for an extension to the scripting language. Also, I wont have time to mod perfectly all units to fit in Tolkien theme, so if you can start a 'generic' Tolkien mod, then fine for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

MStavros

September 29th, 2003, 12:06 PM

Check out this:

http://www.taylorcustom.com/localinks/mearth/pdf/middleEarth03_a4_6up.pdf

This is perfect for map location names.

Mortifer

September 29th, 2003, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by MStavros:
Check out this:

http://www.taylorcustom.com/localinks/mearth/pdf/middleEarth03_a4_6up.pdf

This is perfect for map location names.Nice and detailed map.

Pocus - Your maps are 'Online maps'?
They can be found on the net?

[ September 29, 2003, 14:10: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

st.patrik

September 29th, 2003, 02:26 PM

The same guy (Chris Taylor I think is his name) also has a [smaller] Version of the same map without names on his website. Plus which there's a link to a map based off his which is bigger, in colour (which of course would have to be tweaked [no plains/farmland distinction]) and looks very pretty. However, it does have names. Lots of them.

The first website is
http://www.taylorcustom.com/localinks/mearth/mearthmap.html

and the link to the big coloured map is
http://www.ititches.com/middleearth/

DominionsFan

September 29th, 2003, 03:26 PM

Ok but isn't this a bit early? I mean 1. the game isn't released at all. 2. the release of the modding tools are far far far away I guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I can't wait to play with the Tolkien mod! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Aristoteles

September 29th, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Ok but isn't this a bit early? I mean 1. the game isn't released at all. 2. the release of the modding tools are far far far away I guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I can't wait to play with the Tolkien mod! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif LOL, yes......but its all kewl! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I love that color map, its very good.
Damn I want to kick some *** in Rohan! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ September 29, 2003, 14:38: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Pocus

September 29th, 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MStavros:
Check out this:

http://www.taylorcustom.com/localinks/mearth/pdf/middleEarth03_a4_6up.pdf

This is perfect for map location names.Nice and detailed map.

Pocus - Your maps are 'Online maps'?
They can be found on the net?<hr /></blockquote>I made the Elric map which is on Illwinter site. It seems a small contribution, but as of today there is more script lines in it that the sum of all other maps published http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I is still played in pbem (turn 65 or so, many players remaining). The map is rather rich I would say... as Marignon thats the fourth consecutive turn that I cast a wish http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mortifer

September 29th, 2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Ok but isn't this a bit early? I mean 1. the game isn't released at all. 2. the release of the modding tools are far far far away I guess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I can't wait to play with the Tolkien mod! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif LOL, yes......but its all kewl! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I love that color map, its very good.
Damn I want to kick some *** in Rohan! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>Who cares? We can talk about it at least! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ... until we can start modding!
Still we can collect graphics for the units etc, and resize - paint them later on.

st.patrik

September 29th, 2003, 10:51 PM

It seems to me that one simple way to enable mods for Dom II would be to make the nation themes mods - thus the game would come with certain 'mods' and more could be added easily, whether by Illwinter or players. The making of a theme could involve as little as adding one or two units (and removing others), or could involve changing all the units to something completely different. The idea of designing your own theme also gives a balance between the purist who doesn't want to mess much if at all the game as it stands, and the person who would want to turn the game into something completely different.

Comments?

Mortifer

September 29th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Making themes sounds cool, I agree.
However modding is a bit different. Modding means, that you can design/add/delete/change lot of things, not just add a few.

That is why modding is big fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

st.patrik

September 29th, 2003, 11:14 PM

Well� I'm more talking about a structure for changing a lot of things than a particular level of change. As I see it there are three things you might want to change:

1> maps - add new maps, change existing maps, make scenarios, etc. - all about (at least in Dom I) changing the .map file and corresponding picture

2> monsters - similar deal. I don't know much about this, but I gather there's been talk about this and it's not impossible

which leaves
3> nations - which is what I am suggesting with having themes be structured as mods. Like I said before, this would allow for little change, or much change, depending on how much work you want to put in. For example, it would be totally possible to do a "Noldor" [for the unenlightened Noldor=a kind of elf from Tolkien] theme which would change every unit of a current nation to well, Noldor units. Similarly you could add a "Dunedain" theme to another nation etc.

It's been a long time since I've coded, but if I remember aright having a structure in place which defines what you can and can't change, so that you can interface between the game and the mod in a relatively clean way is really helpful.

st.patrik

September 29th, 2003, 11:16 PM

You really didn't read my first post very closely at all Mortifer. I hope the clarification clarifies.

Psitticine

September 30th, 2003, 03:39 AM

Themes would be an interesting thing to play with. Even just the ability to add/subtract units and add some inspirational text would do a lot in that direction. Most themes in the game have additional effects, and those would take a lot more work to implement, but just being able to create and add/subtract units, choose "scale setting" prerequisites, and define some flavorful text for various events would do a lot, especially in sync with the power already available with map creation.

MStavros

September 30th, 2003, 08:54 AM

Making themes is not enough. We need the ability to mod the map, units, nations and gods.
With themes we cannot even make a Tolkien mod, just for example. Themes are only good for the existing nations. It is not enough.
Enough said.

[ September 30, 2003, 08:15: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Mortifer

September 30th, 2003, 10:00 AM

st.patrik - I think that is because of my bad english. So you are saying that making themes would be good, right? I agree with that, BUT that is not full modding.
Just like Stavros has said, modding means that we can edit/add/remove units/pretenders/monsters, we can make maps, we can design races/nations. This all together. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Endoperez

September 30th, 2003, 10:53 AM

Mortifier: You said that "modding means that we can edit/add/remove units/pretenders/monsters, we can make maps, we can design races/nations."

We can, and could even in DOM 1, make new monsters. Same for maps. New monsters were harder to make, mainly because you needed two graphic files for them and it seems not many have artistic abilities. But while making a map, you can define almost anything.

And with themes, you can change the national troops. Even if Marignon is named Marignon, if the troops are the ones of Gondor, and the citadel is called Minas Tirith, and they are in war with Ermor who has Orcs, trolls, oliphaunts and what ever Sauron got under his forces... Is that not enough? Magic sites would then be about the only thing you could not customise. And the troops you are able to recruit from a given province.

So, modding themes is about everything you want that you don't yet have.

As said before, in a .map file, you can define almost anything. I remember doing my own .map-file while I only had demo, putting all kinds of interesting magic sites and items to my commanders and to my provinces. I was somewhat disappointed when I realised that I couldn't set my pretenders' magics over 19... I exploited the bug with which you could use astral gems to research paths over the level four that was normal limit in demo. In that game, I casted Wish for the first time. And second, and third, and fourth... It's enough if I say I wished for a Master smith, made him commander, empowered him in astral until he could cast wish and made him forge all the unique artifacts... But the map of Melnibone, made by Pocus, is much better example for the power you have when making a map.

Pocus

September 30th, 2003, 12:47 PM

I wonder who you are Endoperez? Bob Perez of the newsgroup?

Mortifer

September 30th, 2003, 02:10 PM

Well, whatever, if we can do those [edit/add/remove units, pretenders, nations and monsters [we can make maps already]] we are all set to make wonderful mods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ September 30, 2003, 13:10: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Aristoteles

September 30th, 2003, 02:23 PM

Ok I don't get it. IF we can make themes, that means that we can edit everything? I mean we can redesign the nations(races), add 'nation units', monsters, change the pretenders(gods) etc.?

If you call theme making - modding, than I am happy too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
The 3 main things are: unit&nation&pretender editors. Don't forget about that.

[ September 30, 2003, 13:23: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Endoperez

September 30th, 2003, 03:18 PM

Look at the themes there are:

Themes change the troops available and the starting sites. There are more complicated ones as well, but this would be enough to make a new nation.
With map editor, you can make any creature the pretender of any nation. You can also define the magic skills on any commander, up to 19 in every magic. And choose the sites of certain province, as well as it's name. You can also chooce two provinces to be neighbours, even if they have no common border. And, you can make provinces not neighbours, so that you can't pass over them. Think about too high mountains.

If there was a possibility to add/edit themes, it would be your 'nation editor',
You can choose pretenders with map editor that already exists,
And it is possible to make new monsters but there is no editor for that.
And it is possible, if the community is interested enough, to make a program for monster making. Although I don't think you will be able to edit existing units.
Have you read the mapedit and the monedit manuals? They come with the game and are in doc folder. They can also be dloaded from IW site. They are in pdf(the file type). From them you find all information you need to make monsters/ maps, although making maps in DOM II is quite a bit defferent compared to DOM 1.

Mortifer

September 30th, 2003, 04:02 PM

Endoperez I have a question for you:
It will be possible to make a Tolkien mod, with all the tolkien 'nations', units, leaders and creatures without any new dom 2. mod tool?
You can change/add/remove everything what I listed above?

Zerger

September 30th, 2003, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Endoperez I have a question for you:
It will be possible to make a Tolkien mod, with all the tolkien 'nations', units, leaders and creatures without any new dom 2. mod tool?
You can change/add/remove everything what I listed above?No way! If that would be possible, than what were we talking about so far? HUH? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Psitticine

September 30th, 2003, 05:26 PM

The missing component is to be able to fuse those new units and such into a unified nation design. Since themes offer the ability to change national unit line-ups, among other things, this was forwarded as a good solution as to how to bring everything together without too much more work needed by Illwinter. The simpler the solution can be, the more likely it is they can do it with their limited manpower and funding.

st.patrik

September 30th, 2003, 06:52 PM

I'm kinda relieved that people started understanding what I was trying to suggest - thanks Endoperez & Psitticine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mortifer

September 30th, 2003, 08:45 PM

Ergo themes are not enough for a proper mod.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

st.patrik

September 30th, 2003, 10:48 PM

*slaps forehead in frustration*

Mortifer - themes can change everything about the nation except its name.

Mortifer

September 30th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
The missing component is to be able to fuse those new units and such into a unified nation design.Than what is this?
Also I thought that we can add monsters to scenarios ONLY in Dom I.
Basically we cannot make themes at all for Dom II. I guess, am I right?

[ September 30, 2003, 21:58: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Aristoteles

September 30th, 2003, 11:03 PM

This is getting annoying. Themes are not mods.
Themes are for the ORIGINAL GAME.

We need MOD TOOLS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

johan osterman

September 30th, 2003, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
This is getting annoying. Themes are not mods.
Themes are for the ORIGINAL GAME.

We need MOD TOOLS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Why is modding a theme not modding? Their point is that it might be simpler to implement changing themes than changing the nations from scratch thus improving the chances of it being implemented, and since the themes can come with a whole set of troops as similar or dissimlar from the original nation as you want, this would let you change every aspect of a nation but its name and the flag on the map or the overviews. Thus if you could edit themes you could make an Ermor that could recruit orcs, snaga uruk-hai or whetever you want, you just would be stuck with the name Ermor and the skull flag.

Aristoteles

September 30th, 2003, 11:21 PM

Ok, but it will be hard for the devs to script something, what will give us the chance to change the names of the nations??

[ September 30, 2003, 22:22: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Endoperez

October 1st, 2003, 01:11 AM

Nope. In newsGroups I used my hotmail address, j87joensuu, since I posted into them through google Groups.
I'm not sure where I got the name, but I logged to Runescape (mediocre MMORPG) using this a long time ago. I was reading the Groups at that time, so I might have gotten the "-perez" from there.
And I thought I had made up an innovative name! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Kristoffer O

October 1st, 2003, 06:58 AM

No.

Nationmodding, if and when it is implemented, will probably work as a theme, but a theme where you can also change the name of a nation.

What a theme does at the moment is changing something or everything of a nation but the name, so implementing a thememodding with the extra addition of namechanges wouldn't be too difficult i believe.

Adding additional nations (more than 17) would be a much bigger problem. As would changing underwater nations into land nations and vice versa.

ywl

October 1st, 2003, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
Ok, but it will be hard for the devs to script something, what will give us the chance to change the names of the nations??Hmmm... Fire up a hex-editor and edit the binary of the program? Does that count?

I didn't try much. But I got it worked by changing the program data at only one place. So, I guess it should be reasonable easy for Illwinter to code the progame to read the nation names from a text file.

Pocus

October 1st, 2003, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
No.

Nationmodding, if and when it is implemented, will probably work as a theme, but a theme where you can also change the name of a nation.

What a theme does at the moment is changing something or everything of a nation but the name, so implementing a thememodding with the extra addition of namechanges wouldn't be too difficult i believe.

Adding additional nations (more than 17) would be a much bigger problem. As would changing underwater nations into land nations and vice versa.some loosely related questions :
are always wondered, in which language you develop? C, C++, something else?
Are you an OOP fan? Thats ease program changes rather drastically...
What was the reason initially to internalize in the binary all the datas? answer can be : dont know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Aristoteles

October 1st, 2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

Nationmodding, if and when it is implemented, will probably work as a theme, but a theme where you can also change the name of a nation.

Great. This is what we need than.

MStavros

October 1st, 2003, 09:57 AM

Themes or not, if we can modify the nations totally, change their names, and change the pretenders as well, than we can talk about making mods.

DominionsFan

October 1st, 2003, 10:47 AM

Ye, plz allow us to rename the nations and to design new pretenders. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ October 01, 2003, 09:47: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ]

Zerger

October 1st, 2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Ye, plz allow us to rename the nations and to design new pretenders. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Agreed.

Rollo

October 1st, 2003, 12:40 PM

not sure if it has been mentioned, yet. I recall it was misisng from one of the early lists of 'must-have' tools. IMHO, that should also include the ablity to mod magic sites.

Mortifer

October 1st, 2003, 09:57 PM

Yeah, modding magic sites would be also a nice addition. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nerfix

October 2nd, 2003, 01:39 AM

Well, i'll make an exception and post something actualy constructive here:

I think that some themes in "vanilla" Dom II could also change the nation's name. Like Midg�rd and Niefelheim themes. Perhaps even flags, like Serpent Cult Pythium would more likely have a snake or some other reptile in their flag than an eagle.

IF i would mod, i would definedly want to have magic site editor.

[ October 01, 2003, 13:02: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

DominionsFan

October 2nd, 2003, 11:02 AM

WOW yup! Making new -or- editing the existing sites would rock!

I can't wait to see some good mods for Dom II! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 02, 2003, 10:03: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ]

Zerger

October 2nd, 2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Yeah, modding magic sites would be also a nice addition. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Agreed.

Aristoteles

October 2nd, 2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Zerger:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
Yeah, modding magic sites would be also a nice addition. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Agreed.<hr /></blockquote>Me too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Aristoteles

October 2nd, 2003, 05:50 PM

I have 3 questions.
1. What is the max pixel size of a creature, what we can use? [ex. 96x96..etc.]

2. What is the max color depth allowed? 16 bit?...and what format? [.tga?]

3. What is the color code for transparency?

[ October 02, 2003, 16:52: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Aristoteles

October 2nd, 2003, 09:01 PM

Hello? I want to start to work on some unit graphics...May I have some informations? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Kristoffer O

October 2nd, 2003, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
I have 3 questions.
1. What is the max pixel size of a creature, what we can use? [ex. 96x96..etc.]

2. What is the max color depth allowed? 16 bit?...and what format? [.tga?]

3. What is the color code for transparency?1. Difficult to answer at the moment. Until recently it was 64x64. With the depixelization filter removed all sprites have been externally filtered and doubled in size, but I'm not sure it will be possible to draw sprites in this size for imported tga pictures. I would recommend max 64x64 until further notice.

A human was 16 pixels in height.

2. 24.tga I believe.

3. Black is transparent. Magenta (100R.0G.100B) is shadow (on the ground beneath the unit).

Maps can be of any size. The largest one at the moment is 2400x1800 I believe, but size doesn't matter.

MStavros

October 2nd, 2003, 09:22 PM

Oops, we were posting in the same time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 02, 2003, 20:23: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Mortifer

October 3rd, 2003, 10:05 AM

Ok shall we start to work on some LotR units than?
OR wait for dom 2, and browse between the existing units, I am sure that we will be able to use some of them.
I say lets wait for dom 2. first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Aristoteles

October 3rd, 2003, 03:49 PM

I will make some units. I think I will use some units from Age of Wonders 2.
[Screenshot, edit, tweak.]

Zerger

October 5th, 2003, 09:16 AM

I ripped out some cool unit graphics already, perhaps we should make a site to host them or something?

MStavros

October 5th, 2003, 09:32 PM

I think we forgot about a very important part.

The mod tools must contain the following: Weapon/Armor/Item editor. [For units and for leaders as well.]

Saber Cherry

October 5th, 2003, 10:01 PM

I plan to make a Japanese nation, and to do this I would need:

1) Unit creator.
2) Theme creator (ideally, with nation name-changing support).

Additionally, I would like:

3) Unit editor (ability to change existing units, not just make new ones).
4) Theme editor.
5) Spell editor (just for spell stats, not graphics, sounds, or effects).
6) Special site creator and editor.
7) Sound effects in wave files.

I don't know how the DomII data is organized, though some of it seems to be hidden in the executable. If I were to make the game ideal for modding, I would make each unit a single file, in zip format, renamed to *.unt. The zip package would contain a text file with units stats and description, and the 2 bitmap files. This way, a person could easily create a unit without proprietary tools, and mod existing units as well. Furthermore, Illwinter could alter the game quickly and easily without having to do a recomplie each time. All units (official or custom) would be thrown together in the DomII\Units directory.

A theme could be a simple text file in the DomII\Themes directory, listing the nation(s) that can use the theme, starting special sites, units available, and special effects. For example:

NihonTheme.txt:

*******************

[ThemeName]
"Feudal Nihon"

[ValidNations]
"Man"

[ChangeNationName]
True

[NewNationName]
"Nihon"

[DesignCost]
0

[SpecialSites]
"Imperial Palace"
"Shaolin Monastary"
"Pink Ninja Training Cave"

[Units]
Militia03.unt
Militia04.unt
Cavalry07.unt
WaterBuffalo01.unt
SushiChef01.unt

[Commanders]
MonkCmdr03.unt
NinjaCmdr01.unt
ShogunCmdr01.unt
IronChefItalian01.unt
IronChefFrench01.unt
GenericMage17.unt

[Pretenders]
DrunkenNinjaMaster01.unt
Pichu01.unt
Pikachu01.unt
Raichu.unt
GundamZero01.unt
VashTheStampede01.unt
SupaaIdoruAyumiHamasaki01.unt

[Effects]
"Restless Worshippers"
"Ocean Travel"
"Bonus Food Production On Coast"
"Pokemon Cult"

*******************

Obviously, there would have to be a list of valid effect names and valid special site names. Each unit would correspond to a specific filename in the units folder. Then, when the nation theme is done, you can put it into the themes folder, and it will be selectable next time you load DomII.

Anyway... that's what I'd do.

-Cherry

st.patrik

October 5th, 2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
[Units]
SushiChef01.unt
I would love to see an army of these guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mortifer

October 6th, 2003, 01:20 AM

I will make a site, but let us wait for the game first. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif [Also the mod tools]

Pocus

October 6th, 2003, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
[QB
3. Black is transparent. Magenta (100R.0G.100B) is shadow (on the ground beneath the unit).

QB]Kristoffer meant 100% R, 0% G, 100% B, as on a 0-255 RGB scale this would translate to (255/0/255)

Magenta, the color which is so ugly that every developer in the world uses it as a transparent color http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mortifer

October 6th, 2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by MStavros:
I think we forgot about a very important part.

The mod tools must contain the following: Weapon/Armor/Item editor. [For units and for leaders as well.]Oh yea, I forgot about this too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
Hopefully we can add, delete and edit those as well! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 06, 2003, 10:06: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Zerger

October 6th, 2003, 09:14 PM

What about spells?
I hope that we can remove or disable any spells what we want. That shouldn't be hard to implent for the devs. I don't wanna make new spells, I think that would require scripting. However we must be able to remove or disable spells.
A LotR mod with these spells would make no sense.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

+++
I really hate some spells in Dominions like Doom,Magic Duel,Master Enslave etc.
It would be good if I could remove them, if I want to... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mortifer

October 6th, 2003, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Zerger:
What about spells?
I hope that we can remove or disable any spells what we want. That shouldn't be hard to implent for the devs. I don't wanna make new spells, I think that would require scripting. However we must be able to remove or disable spells.
A LotR mod with these spells would make no sense.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

+++
I really hate some spells in Dominions like Doom,Magic Duel,Master Enslave etc.
It would be good if I could remove them, if I want to... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Hm frankly I would be the happiest fan, if we could do that...but do not expect that we can.
I think the AI will be confused without spells, that is hard-coded in the game. [I am not sure of course.]

IF we can do it, propably the devs must script a new AI for it more than likely.
Well I am not sure as I said, so who knows.
Maybe an Illwinter dev could answer to this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

LordArioch

October 6th, 2003, 10:04 PM

I can also see how removing spells could make sense in mods...but it doesn't seem too major a priority. Almost none of the spells in the game would really fit too smoothly into a LOTR mod really...but that's more because there wasnt all that much in the way of spells being thrown around. I can't see anyone there casting master enslave or any other high level astral spell equally. But that's just because Gandalf had nothing on RADAGAST! Radagast was my favorite wizard even though he never appeared. Course neither did half the other wizards in Middle-Earth, but no matter.
But anyway if you think the spells dont fit too well in a LOTR setting a general weakining of magic power would be advisable...I'd say low level elemental spells would fit best, maybe some low level nature/death for the appropiate people.

Saber Cherry

October 7th, 2003, 02:14 AM

Editing a spell's stats would achieve the same goal as being able to remove them. Don't like Summer Lions? Change the cost to 500 gems. Mind Duel? Change it to 100 gems, and I suspect it will never again be cast in combat.

Edi

October 7th, 2003, 07:15 AM

As for weapon editors and such, I've one question related more to Dominions-PPP than DomII: Is there a comprehensive master list of all weapons and armor available in Dom-PPP somewhere, because the list given in the mon_edit.pdf was more of a guideline than a really comprehensive one. Would be nice to know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edi

Mortifer

October 7th, 2003, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Editing a spell's stats would achieve the same goal as being able to remove them. Don't like Summer Lions? Change the cost to 500 gems. Mind Duel? Change it to 100 gems, and I suspect it will never again be cast in combat.Well maybe we will have the power to do these. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

DominionsFan

October 7th, 2003, 06:01 PM

Yup. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

MStavros

October 7th, 2003, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Editing a spell's stats would achieve the same goal as being able to remove them. Don't like Summer Lions? Change the cost to 500 gems. Mind Duel? Change it to 100 gems, and I suspect it will never again be cast in combat.Well maybe we will have the power to do these. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>Yes, "spell editing" would be a neat feature.
((If we can disable spells only, that is all good as well.))

Gandalf Parker

October 7th, 2003, 11:18 PM

I know Im a party pooper but I think editing spells would be too far. I want people to enjoy the game but I dont want everyone playing different games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Maybe a switch or a game-setting in the menu that would allow for a general raising of spell costs that use gems. That I would like.

Mortifer

October 7th, 2003, 11:29 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I know Im a party pooper but I think editing spells would be too far. I want people to enjoy the game but I dont want everyone playing different games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Maybe a switch or a game-setting in the menu that would allow for a general raising of spell costs that use gems. That I would like.Yes editing spells is a bit too much. But disabling spells is a must have if we talk about spells.
If we cannot disable spells, we cannot make good scenarios.

Saber Cherry

October 8th, 2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I want people to enjoy the game but I dont want everyone playing different games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Why not? If somebody would enjoy the game more with mind duel costing 1 gem instead of just fatigue, how does that bother you?

Gandalf Parker

October 8th, 2003, 03:25 AM

Disabling spells sounds good. I dont want to jinx Dom 2 before its even out <knock on virtual wood> but there were some spells which caused alot of discussion in Dom 1. I think we might have been happy with an option to just remove the use of certain spells that caused imbalance arguments. It would be a way to agree on a "temp fix" until a patch arrives.

DominionsFan

October 8th, 2003, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I know Im a party pooper but I think editing spells would be too far. I want people to enjoy the game but I dont want everyone playing different games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Maybe a switch or a game-setting in the menu that would allow for a general raising of spell costs that use gems. That I would like.Yes editing spells is a bit too much. But disabling spells is a must have if we talk about spells.
If we cannot disable spells, we cannot make good scenarios.<hr /></blockquote>I agree too. Disabling spells is the best what we can get and yes it is a must have as youve said. Editing spells is pointless, because if you want to make a mod, you just choose out the spells what you will need, and simply disable the rest. There is a huge spell arsenal in Doms II. so it won't be a problem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 08, 2003, 08:19: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ]

MStavros

October 10th, 2003, 01:41 AM

I reckon. Disabling spells will be very important for modders.

+ If you feel that some spells are unbalanced, you will be able to turn them off even.

[ October 09, 2003, 12:42: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Aristoteles

October 11th, 2003, 09:59 PM

Any news about the mod tools? I read it on the Boards, that Illwinter is working on one, but what will be in the mod tools? All the major ideas what we have posted here, will be implented?

Gandalf Parker

October 14th, 2003, 01:47 AM

I know that Im arguing with myself. Cant help it. Im an old debater type. I will discuss the underdog side of anything then if it looks like Im doing too well I will switch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, I was wondering concerning the DEMO question. Ive been arguing for the old demo method which limited what spells you could get and left out some units. I have a question for anyone on the other side of the argument (turn limits) and has access to all this modding stuff.

If the demo includes the modding tools then couldnt the old method be slightly sidestepped using it? Could you write the missing stuff back into the demo? And even if the tools werent included, if the demo can play a modded map then couldnt someone create a downloadable map that does that?

You probably already thought of this or its a stupid question considering the tools. Just thought Id ask. Would make a great argument for the turn-limit demo folks if it were true

Psitticine

October 14th, 2003, 05:39 AM

The modding tools are still in alpha. They most definitely won't be in the demo, nor do I really have any idea when they'll be ready. Dom II was never built to have a structure friendly to modding, so I suspect the tools might take a little extra development time.

There's been no beta-testing of them at all yet, or even word that such testing might come soon. Because of that, there's not much data to pass on at this point.

Hopefully, the tools (and/or the demo itself) will be done in such a way as to prevent using them to tamper with the demo's content. When it is time to beta-test the tools, I'll do my best to pry the top off the demo with them, just to be on the safe side.

Saber Cherry

October 14th, 2003, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
The modding tools are still in alpha.

.......

There's been no beta-testing of them at all yetYeah, that seems to follow... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'm really happy to hear the news, though! Yay! Yatta!

DominionsFan

October 14th, 2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Psitticine:
The modding tools are still in alpha.

.......

There's been no beta-testing of them at all yetYeah, that seems to follow... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I'm really happy to hear the news, though! Yay! Yatta!<hr /></blockquote>WOOT! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Hey may I be in the Mod tools beta team? I love modding! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Gandalf Parker

October 14th, 2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
[QUOTE]WOOT! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Hey may I be in the Mod tools beta team? I love modding! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif That would probably depend on whether or not there is a non-disclosure agreement involved.

Psitticine

October 14th, 2003, 03:57 PM

There would definitely be an NDA, and it'd be up to Illwinter and/or Shrapnel to decide if they wanted to add anybody to the beta-testing team at this stage. It'll also be a bit, as I say, before the issue will come up. My impression is that they've prioritized the tools due to popular demand, but I can't swear to that. Still, it'll take a little time to get them up and running, I'm sure.

Zerger

October 14th, 2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
There would definitely be an NDA, and it'd be up to Illwinter and/or Shrapnel to decide if they wanted to add anybody to the beta-testing team at this stage. It'll also be a bit, as I say, before the issue will come up. My impression is that they've prioritized the tools due to popular demand, but I can't swear to that. Still, it'll take a little time to get them up and running, I'm sure.Hooray for Illwinter! It is good to hear that they are working on the mod tools! I am very happy about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mortifer

October 15th, 2003, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Zerger:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Psitticine:
There would definitely be an NDA, and it'd be up to Illwinter and/or Shrapnel to decide if they wanted to add anybody to the beta-testing team at this stage. It'll also be a bit, as I say, before the issue will come up. My impression is that they've prioritized the tools due to popular demand, but I can't swear to that. Still, it'll take a little time to get them up and running, I'm sure.Hooray for Illwinter! It is good to hear that they are working on the mod tools! I am very happy about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, Illwinter rocks, they are listening to their fans! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

DominionsFan

October 15th, 2003, 02:03 PM

Yea yea, HOORAY, but now release the demo plz! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Aristoteles

October 15th, 2003, 09:38 PM

So it will be possible to disable spells? This is a very important thing..well should be.

Gandalf Parker

October 16th, 2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Yea yea, HOORAY, but now release the demo plz! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif An NDA is a legal contract which means that beta-testers will have to be legal age.

Mortifer

October 16th, 2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Yea yea, HOORAY, but now release the demo plz! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif An NDA is a legal contract which means that beta-testers will have to be legal age.<hr /></blockquote>I think that DominionsFAN is a little too young for a beta test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Aristoteles

October 16th, 2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
So it will be possible to disable spells? This is a very important thing..well should be.Ok but I still had no answer! Hello, IW?

DominionsFan

October 16th, 2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Yea yea, HOORAY, but now release the demo plz! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif An NDA is a legal contract which means that beta-testers will have to be legal age.<hr /></blockquote>I think that DominionsFAN is a little too young for a beta test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>BAH! What is the age limit to beta?

Gandalf Parker

October 16th, 2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
BAH! What is the age limit to beta?Im not answering for Illwinter but since there is a non-disclosure agreement Id say that its at LEAST the age to legally sign a binding contract where you live.

That or getting your parents to sign one that makes them legally responsible for you telling anyone anything about the game before its released.

DominionsFan

October 16th, 2003, 10:54 PM

Oh..than I won't beta anything for a couple of years more. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Nerfix

October 16th, 2003, 10:58 PM

I'm not speaking for your country, but i think that in Finland you can make legaly binding contracts at age of 15.

So, only 2 days and i could be a betatester.

Anyway, i don't think that you'll have to be at age of 18 to make legaly binding contracts. Not sure about how it is like where you live.

DominionsFan

October 17th, 2003, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
So it will be possible to disable spells? This is a very important thing..well should be.As someone have said before: This is a must have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Gandalf Parker

October 17th, 2003, 02:54 PM

Im just glad they dont have an old age cutoff. Although Im not sure why they dont. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nerfix

October 17th, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
God save us if Nerfix will beta test anything! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif In fact, i have betatested one game(it was open beta though), but it appeared my tar-pump computer couldn't handle the game, so i quit.

Mortifer

October 17th, 2003, 04:30 PM

I beta tested some games, and I am in the beta of Pax Romana right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Daynarr

October 17th, 2003, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
I beta tested some games, and I am in the beta of Pax Romana right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif What type of game is Pax Romana?
I heard something about it but just can't remember.

Mortifer

October 17th, 2003, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by Daynarr:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
I beta tested some games, and I am in the beta of Pax Romana right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif What type of game is Pax Romana?
I heard something about it but just can't remember.<hr /></blockquote>http://paxromana.dcegames.com/

Aristoteles

October 18th, 2003, 01:47 AM

God save us if Nerfix will beta test anything! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

DominionsFan

October 20th, 2003, 10:23 AM

Hey that game looks like EU II!

Oh and yny news about the mod tools?

Pocus

October 20th, 2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Daynarr:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
I beta tested some games, and I am in the beta of Pax Romana right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif What type of game is Pax Romana?
I heard something about it but just can't remember.<hr /></blockquote>http://paxromana.dcegames.com/ <hr /></blockquote>Mortifer, under which name you are known in the beta testers forum?

Pocus

October 20th, 2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Hey that game looks like EU II!
Philippe Thibault is the original designer of EU (the boardgame), and sold his licence to Paradox. Pax Romana is akin to the look of the EUs, mostly because it is a province based game too. That aside, some game mechanisms are light years away, like the complex political engine.

Slated for release in november, in French, English, German and Spanish IIRC.

Mortifer

October 21st, 2003, 09:58 AM

Sorry, I don't wanna tell that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

About the game: it will be awesome, real strategos must buy it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Pocus

October 21st, 2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Sorry, I don't wanna tell that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

About the game: it will be awesome, real strategos must buy it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif why? I wonder if you ever went to the beta forum, as I share the same nickname of Pocus, and you would have noticed that in this case.

[ October 21, 2003, 09:44: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Mortifer

October 21st, 2003, 10:45 AM

Because no. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Btw you propably know Tamas than. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

MStavros

October 21st, 2003, 11:52 AM

Hey, any news about the mod tools? How's the development going? What will be the features of the vanilla mod tool? Any words about the spell disabling at least? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Pocus

October 21st, 2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Because no. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Btw you propably know Tamas than. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ok, you are of the family http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mortifer

October 21st, 2003, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
Because no. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Btw you propably know Tamas than. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ok, you are of the family http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hehe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Btw I am in another beta as well..it is not started yet but will soon. [Stone to Steel]

-Storm-

October 22nd, 2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by MStavros:
Hey, any news about the mod tools? How's the development going? What will be the features of the vanilla mod tool? Any words about the spell disabling at least? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif I have the same questions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Aristoteles

October 22nd, 2003, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Aristoteles:
So it will be possible to disable spells? This is a very important thing..well should be.Ok but I still had no answer! Hello, IW? <hr /></blockquote>Ok this is the 3rd time that I am asking this, please some devs give us an answer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Mortifer

October 22nd, 2003, 10:52 PM

Well since the devs are ignoring this question I guess the answer is no or not yet.

-Storm-

October 23rd, 2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Well since the devs are ignoring this question I guess the answer is no or not yet. Hopefully the answer will be yes, it must be yes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
I mean without this mod tool feature we cannot make real good mods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Gandalf Parker

October 24th, 2003, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by -Storm-:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
Well since the devs are ignoring this question I guess the answer is no or not yet. Hopefully the answer will be yes, it must be yes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
I mean without this mod tool feature we cannot make real good mods. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif <hr /></blockquote>Actually the more these things get put in, the more it will slow me down. Im a hacker so a menu is just a list of things I DONT need to look at. My emphasis will be twiddling around with the things everyone else is ignoring or finding new things to do with the limitations.

Your "we cannot make real good mods" would be my playground. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Gandalf Parker
www.alt-hacker.org (http://www.alt-hacker.org)

MStavros

October 25th, 2003, 12:53 PM

What about an update from Illwinter?
They are very quiet about the mod tools.
What will be the main parts of the mod tool?
Please, do not ignore the questions here.

johan osterman

October 25th, 2003, 02:30 PM

It is not far along yet to say much about it.

Mortifer

October 25th, 2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
It is not far along yet to say much about it. If there will be infos, please don't forget to post them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

johan osterman

October 25th, 2003, 06:27 PM

Currently you can change stats for units.

-Storm-

October 25th, 2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Currently you can change stats for units. Oh thats all? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
I guess the mod tools Version must be like v0.1 right now, if the final Version will be v1.0. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Saber Cherry

October 25th, 2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Currently you can change stats for units. So far, so good! A lot can be done with that, especially if the name and description strings are "stats".

MStavros

October 25th, 2003, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
Currently you can change stats for units. So far, so good! A lot can be done with that, especially if the name and description strings are "stats". <hr /></blockquote>This is an important thing indeed, I hope that the next news about the mod tools will be: 'You can now turn on/off any spells' or something like that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Aristoteles

October 31st, 2003, 02:56 AM

I guess the mod tools will be pushed back now....upgrading the strategic AI will take over the first place on the to do list...

[ October 30, 2003, 12:56: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Mortifer

November 1st, 2003, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
I guess the mod tools will be pushed back now....upgrading the strategic AI will take over the first place on the to do list... We have time man. Just be patient. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

DominionsFan

November 16th, 2003, 12:34 AM

Hey, any news about the mod tools? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif