Cthulhu R'lyeh Wgah'nagl Fhtagn, L�! L�! [Archive]

johan osterman

September 28th, 2003, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by andvare:
I was wondering if you guys hopefully could give out some more information on the development of R�lyeh, themes etc? Anything at all will do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Rlyeh just has the standard theme from dom 1. But they do have a new site that will allow them to summon cthulhu mythos style monsters such as elder things and formless spawns etc.

Also if they build coastal castles they recieve and can recruit hybrids ala shadow over innsmouth(or the movie Dagon).

Ia Ia Cthulhu ftaghn

Zerger

September 28th, 2003, 11:18 PM

Bah! Ulm is the best! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
There are any themes for Ulm?

Psitticine

September 28th, 2003, 11:38 PM

Ulm has the Iron Faith dominion theme. In it, their fear of magic has gone so far as to cause even their master smiths to abandon its use. An Inquisition has formed and the only magic is in its hands, to be used exclusively for fighting heretics, of course.

You lose the Master Smiths, but you gain knights and magic-weilding units. It's a nice variant. Sort of like Ulm-meets-Marignon.

Nerfix

September 29th, 2003, 05:41 AM

Since this derailed in to a "ask about themes from "insider" people" thread, i'll ask:
Themes for Caelum?

PDF

September 29th, 2003, 09:33 AM

And Arcoscephales ? With Greek mythos background ideas for themes abound... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Zerger

September 29th, 2003, 09:35 AM

Ulm POWA! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

andvare

September 29th, 2003, 09:46 AM

Rlyeh just has the standard theme from dom 1. But they do have a new site that will allow them to summon cthulhu mythos style monsters such as elder things and formless spawns etc.

Also if they build coastal castles they recieve and can recruit hybrids ala shadow over innsmouth(or the movie Dagon).

Ia Ia Cthulhu ftaghn Hurray! The new site alone make the game worthwhile, not to mention the deep one hybrids.

What about illithids, have they been granted more psionic abilities? Enslavement for example? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Pocus

September 29th, 2003, 11:39 AM

<<<
Since this derailed in to a "ask about themes from "insider" people" thread, i'll ask:
Themes for Caelum?
>>>

yes they have 2 themes :

"chicken revenge" : in this theme, all Caelian have lost wings, which is quite infuriating. They now move on land exclusively, but at least they get a +1 str bonus because of being so enraged to rely on that. The drawback is that if you spill corn before them, they will break formation.

"egg shell cult" : Caelians abandonned their ice armor, which are not even flavored with vanilla and strawberry, and wear only egg shell on top of their head for protection. They randomly move in the countryside, saying 'thats too injust!'.

nb : dont take my joke too seriously Nerfix, I have nothing against you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ September 29, 2003, 10:41: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Rollo

September 29th, 2003, 11:58 AM

LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , Pocus

actually Caelum has the 'Return of the Raptors' theme, which gives you Harab Seraphs that are skilled at air, death, and earth magic.
I do like the Egg Shell Cult, though, something for Illwinter to consider http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif .

somewhat OT: there has been a discussion earlier about the ice weapons and whether they are too strong vs. ethereal monsters.
Well, there are other things that you can do that will give you a similar advantage.

I am playing Marignon right now with the diabolical faith theme. I choose a Moloch pretender (one bad mother, btw) and gave it fire magic level 9. This results not only in giving my holy units a +4 in attack when blessed, but also they will wield fire weapons. Now watch that horde of flagellants flail out fiery death http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

My point is that magic weapons are not restricted to Caelum.

Nerfix

September 29th, 2003, 03:16 PM

Return of Raptors...
Grrrreat, evil theme for Caelum...
(do you think i'm disturbing because i try to find evil in every nation of Dominions II?)

Daynarr

September 29th, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
(do you think i'm disturbing because i try to find evil in every nation of Dominions II?)Yes! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Nerfix

September 29th, 2003, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Daynarr:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nerfix:
(do you think i'm disturbing because i try to find evil in every nation of Dominions II?)Yes! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>Well, then you are disturbed for completely wrong reasons...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Anyway, "the search for evil" is for my plans of a custom map...

Pocus

September 29th, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Return of Raptors...
Grrrreat, evil theme for Caelum...
(do you think i'm disturbing because i try to find evil in every nation of Dominions II?)if you ask me, not only for that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Nerfix

September 29th, 2003, 03:40 PM

Aaaa, Pocus is in the rigth tracks!
It hasn't anything to do with my title in Dominions X, eh?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Psitticine

September 29th, 2003, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by andvare:
What about illithids, have they been granted more psionic abilities? Enslavement for example? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Yes and no . . . They don't have additional built-in abilities (although those Mind Burn attacks HURT!!! Nothing sucks worse than having your mages feeble-minded!) but Astral magic features many, many new spells. Several are, in fact, enslavement and mental domination type spells.

Nerfix

September 29th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Uhhh...Mind burn, sirs?
They had Mind BLast in Dominions I...
Mind BLast does area of effect stun(fatigue) damage.

[ September 29, 2003, 17:56: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Psitticine

September 29th, 2003, 07:51 PM

Oops, my bad! I had Mind BLast confused with the Astral spell, Mind Burn, which has a chance of feebleminding the victim.

Sorry 'bout that!

Nerfix

September 29th, 2003, 08:00 PM

Hmmm...I don't remember Mind Burn causing (specificaly) feeblemindness in Dom I...

Kristoffer O

September 29th, 2003, 09:10 PM

Nope!

And Mind BLast is remade. No splash. Prec 100. Range 50 or so. Paralyze one target.

Paralyze is a new thing. Different from fatigue. Either you are paralyzed or you are not. If you are you cannot move or defend.

Nerfix

September 29th, 2003, 09:13 PM

Kristoffer O bLast me with a ray of heavenly knowledge from heavens...
Errrrr... Thanks for the info!
...and extra paralyzation results damage 2/round...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
Well, that is what dom2progress tells me...

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 03:34 PM

Ok, i have two questions:
1) Does R'lyeh have any sacred units? I imagine that some or all of the Void Boogeymen(sorry, but word "Boogeymen" is so neat!) are sacred.
2)Have you made any changes to the Void Lord Pretender?

johan osterman

October 5th, 2003, 03:58 PM

yes

no

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 04:02 PM

Good.

Not good.

johan osterman

October 5th, 2003, 04:14 PM

Whats wrong with old worm face?

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 04:32 PM

You don't go to usenet Groups often, do you?

johan osterman

October 5th, 2003, 04:38 PM

Often enough. So what is wrong with him? I recall you saying on usenet once that he was ugly, but if this is the extent of your complain I fail I have nothing further to add.

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 04:42 PM

Lol, errrr, no i didn't mean that:
Why don't people play with Shedu or Old Wormface?
*tock*
*tick*
*tock*
*tick*
It starts with word Magic and ends with word Duel.

Well, that along high cost, and since R'lyeh realy can't take negative scales because they need every drop of money they can get so they could purchase their units, especialy Mind Flayers who cost cosmic 75 gp in Dominions II(according to my latest knowledge), you'll end up either with "retarded" Pretender or "retarded" Dominion. And since R'lyeh now has Sacred units, we'll also have to remember bless effects too.

[ October 05, 2003, 15:46: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

johan osterman

October 5th, 2003, 04:55 PM

I have a little trouble taking the whole usenet magic duel debate seriously, since Ying Wan Lam discovered that the magic duel had been seriously bugged for the better part of the time that all the complaints were made.

The illithids do not cost 75. Rlyeh can take cold 3 and can afford low production scales, I think Rlyeh can be more liberal with spending point on their pretenders than most other nations.

LordArioch

October 5th, 2003, 04:57 PM

That raises the question of whether magic duel has been changed in Dominions 2 since it seems to inspire strategy-changing fear when mentioned in Dom1. It is after all the only mage specific targeting spell I can think of...and that is quite an advantage. It should either not be based only on astral or have a fairly large uncertainty factor for the better mage's chance of living.

PS: Oops...theres another thread for that. And I guess the fear probably stems from the bugged Version. I've never seen it much myself so I wouldnt know.

[ October 05, 2003, 15:59: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 04:59 PM

Magic Duel still kills you if the enemy mage has a single pick more Astral than you have.

Illithids not costing 75 gp is a good thing. How does Cold 3 differ from Heat 3 for R'lyeh? And at least in Dom I, Cold/Heat 3 cuts down your income of land provinces, and even if you don't need much resources, you will still need money.

I am sorry for any half-asses information, but i am just a very active lurker of Dom II progress...

Kristoffer O

October 5th, 2003, 05:02 PM

It never did, not even while bugged. Both mages add 1D6 to their astral skill. The bug made the initiator win always.

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 05:08 PM

Too...much...divine...energy...

And how does 3 Cold differ from 3 Heat for R'lyeh?

Nagot Gick Fel

October 5th, 2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:

And how does 3 Cold differ from 3 Heat for R'lyeh?Because they're better water mages than fire mages?

Nagot Gick Fel

October 5th, 2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
I have a little trouble taking the whole usenet magic duel debate seriously, since Ying Wan Lam discovered that the magic duel had been seriously bugged for the better part of the time that all the complaints were made.That's not very surprising. Because of its irrevocable effect you better had to ensure your own astral supremacy before starting to think about magic duel. Then, if you duelled an astral 3 mage with your astral 4 one you always won because of the bug. And therefore - the duel mechanics still being a mystery at the time - everyone assumed that more astral meant automatic victory. Because of that low astral mages avoided confrontations and in the rare occasions a duel actually happened, the initiator was always the higher skilled mage. One had to test specifically for this to discover the bug.

So (1) I think you're a bit rude, and (2) that should be an incentive for the devs to be more versatile on the inner mechanics of the game - in this case if we players had known about the 1D6, we players wouldn't have been long before suspecting something didn't work as expected in magic duel.

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nerfix:

And how does 3 Cold differ from 3 Heat for R'lyeh?Because they're better water mages than fire mages?<hr /></blockquote>Are there some mechanics i am unaware of? Like Water/Fire spells costing more fatigue in Heat/Cold Dominion?

As for MD, it has left deep, deep scars to Dominions.... Void Lord and Shedu being treated like lepers...

[ October 05, 2003, 18:02: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

PDF

October 5th, 2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
It never did, not even while bugged. Both mages add 1D6 to their astral skill. The bug made the initiator win always.Do yo mean it's fixed since some patch ? Everyone still consider the best Astral mage always win... What's the truth ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

johan osterman

October 5th, 2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
That's not very surprising. Because of its irrevocable effect you better had to ensure your own astral supremacy before starting to think about magic duel. Then, if you duelled an astral 3 mage with your astral 4 one you always won because of the bug. And therefore - the duel mechanics still being a mystery at the time - everyone assumed that more astral meant automatic victory. Because of that low astral mages avoided confrontations and in the rare occasions a duel actually happened, the initiator was always the higher skilled mage. One had to test specifically for this to discover the bug.

So (1) I think you're a bit rude, and (2) that should be an incentive for the devs to be more versatile on the inner mechanics of the game - in this case if we players had known about the 1D6, we players wouldn't have been long before suspecting something didn't work as expected in magic duel.Point taken. I apologise if I offended you. I do however think that the cspigs dominions discussions sometimes have a tendency to become a bit dogmatic, and that it is advisable to take some of the conventional wisdom of the newsgroup with a pinch of salt, which the incident above serves to illustrate.

johan osterman

October 5th, 2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
It never did, not even while bugged. Both mages add 1D6 to their astral skill. The bug made the initiator win always.Do yo mean it's fixed since some patch ? Everyone still consider the best Astral mage always win... What's the truth ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>The truth is that the best astral mage never won automatically, since 1.13 or 1.14 or something it works as intended 1d6+ astral skill, lowest sum dies, I don't recall what happens in ties. Before patch initiator always won.

Who is everyone?

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 07:41 PM

Ok, but i have a question about Pokectulh...err...Tentacle Boog...I mean, Void Monsters:
Do you summon them or do you get them from a magic site?

Jasper

October 5th, 2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
I have a little trouble taking the whole usenet magic duel debate seriously, since Ying Wan Lam discovered that the magic duel had been seriously bugged for the better part of the time that all the complaints were made.No offense, but this is actually a very good example of what's wrong with Magic Duel. It has _such_ a chilling effect that everyone (not just the good players) stayed away from it unless they absolutely dominated in Astral Magic. Besides, do you really expect all of your players to have time to testbed _every_ aspect of Dominions?!

People's decisions on this were almost entirely made on how Mind Duel was _supposed_ to work, not how the bug made it work. Besides, do you really expect players to have enough time to testbed _every_ aspect of Dominions?!

The effects of Mind Duel on Pretender design and faction balance are IMHO undeniable and undesireable.

Nerfix

October 5th, 2003, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Jasper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
I have a little trouble taking the whole usenet magic duel debate seriously, since Ying Wan Lam discovered that the magic duel had been seriously bugged for the better part of the time that all the complaints were made.The effects of Mind Duel on Pretender design and faction balance are IMHO undeniable and undesireable.<hr /></blockquote>Well, Magic Duel is one of the main reasons why Void Lord and Shedu are treated like lepers.

johan osterman

October 5th, 2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Jasper:
No offense, but this is actually a very good example of what's wrong with Magic Duel. It has _such_ a chilling effect that everyone (not just the good players) stayed away from it unless they absolutely dominated in Astral Magic. Besides, do you really expect all of your players to have time to testbed _every_ aspect of Dominions?!

People's decisions on this were almost entirely made on how Mind Duel was _supposed_ to work, not how the bug made it work. Besides, do you really expect players to have enough time to testbed _every_ aspect of Dominions?!

The effects of Mind Duel on Pretender design and faction balance are IMHO undeniable and undesireable.Non taken. The thing is that we in our circle of friends, beta testers etc have not experienced mind duel as major factor in pretender design. Perhaps we play less competetively or some such thing, but it has never appeared to be a factor in the same big way it appeared from the cspigs discussions. This coupled with the bug and misperception of its mechanics appears to me indicative that its fearsome reputation is disproportionate to its actual impact in the game. If recall correctly Ying Wan Lam also made an argument concering the over estimation prominence of the Astral King, in conjunction with the testing that resulted in the discovery of the mind duel bug. As far as I can recall the argument was if not exhaustive at least somewhat convincing and show that other players from other player Groups share our estimate.

To sum it up: I have played a fair number of games with reasonably competent players and mind duel has not in my experience been a major factor in pretender design. Nor does its power when analysed appear to me to be so decisive as the cspigs discussions imply. I think the astral kings have been attributed consequence disproportionate to their actual power. Perhaps we could play a game or two when Dominions 2 becomes available to you.

Kristoffer O

October 5th, 2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Well, Magic Duel is one of the main reasons why Void Lord and Shedu are treated like lepers.I have always liked them. Besides, it works both ways. A pretender with astral picks should be powerful enough not to worry too much.

Hmm. For a while at least. Then others might try to boost their mages to get rid of him.

Can it be that no one gives their pretenders astral picks? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I often do. There are so many useful astral spells, low as well as high level and a dead pretender is not a big problem.

Jasper

October 6th, 2003, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nerfix:
Well, Magic Duel is one of the main reasons why Void Lord and Shedu are treated like lepers.I have always liked them. Besides, it works both ways. A pretender with astral picks should be powerful enough not to worry too much.

Hmm. For a while at least. Then others might try to boost their mages to get rid of him.

Can it be that no one gives their pretenders astral picks? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I often do. There are so many useful astral spells, low as well as high level and a dead pretender is not a big problem.<hr /></blockquote>Pretenders with Astral IMHO are far better off not spending points on other magic paths, especially when they are expensive to begin with. You can afford more Astral this way, and don't stand to lose 2 skill when you die.

These are both cool Pretenders, and I have considered using them -- but because I like them rather than because they're effective. If it wasn't for the nature of Mind Duel I might even use them in a multiplayer game.

The Shedu's inability to wear an Astral Skullcap, 125 cost, and starting with only 1 Astral is particularily bad.

MStavros

October 6th, 2003, 07:59 AM

Can you tell me that WHAT THE HECK IS A MIND DUEL? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Jasper

October 6th, 2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by MStavros:
Can you tell me that WHAT THE HECK IS A MIND DUEL? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Oops! I mean Magic Duel. Level 3 Evocation.

[ October 06, 2003, 08:58: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Nagot Gick Fel

October 6th, 2003, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nerfix:

And how does 3 Cold differ from 3 Heat for R'lyeh?Because they're better water mages than fire mages?<hr /></blockquote>Are there some mechanics i am unaware of? Like Water/Fire spells costing more fatigue in Heat/Cold Dominion?<hr /></blockquote>Fire magic and auras are weakened in cold provinces and vice versa. R'lyeh can protect itself from cold effects easily enough, has a wide range of water spells available, and sucks at fire magic - so why choose a hot dominion? Many players argue a hot dominion is beater to deal with Ermor, Atlantis, Caelum, and Jotunheim, and indeed picking heat+3 might be a wiser choice if these nations are in play.

Nerfix

October 6th, 2003, 06:10 PM

Just realised something...
The role of Illithids has changed:
In Dom I, they are "artilery", having a ranged attack with AoE.

In Dom II, they seem to be somekind of "Snipers", taking out single units effectively out of batle. I can see the huge potential of this, being able to lock down Cavalry, including Knigths, Serpent Cataprachts and *drum roll* Atlantian War Lobsters and "Big creatures", including Krakens, Sea/Horned/Sacred Serpents and *behold!* Shamblers And i think that their commanders can still target magic Users and commanders, shutting down mages, priests and *gasp* supercombatants.

Of course i think that you can resists the effects of new Mind BLast, but i can still see the potential.

Nagot Gick Fel

October 6th, 2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Just realised something...
The role of Illithids has changed:
In Dom I, they are "artilery", having a ranged attack with AoE.

In Dom II, they seem to be somekind of "Snipers", [...]

Of course i think that you can resists the effects of new Mind BLast, but i can still see the potential.Good point(s). Their effective range will also be a decisive factor to define their new role, though.

Nerfix

October 6th, 2003, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nerfix:
Just realised something...
The role of Illithids has changed:
In Dom I, they are "artilery", having a ranged attack with AoE.

In Dom II, they seem to be somekind of "Snipers", [...]

Of course i think that you can resists the effects of new Mind BLast, but i can still see the potential.Good point(s). Their effective range will also be a decisive factor to define their new role, though.<hr /></blockquote>I think that the range is something like 50 or so. Well, Kristofer said so.
I can already see R'lyeh frying your brains in Arena combat...
Tentacle Boogeyman sits on the other edge of the batlefield and fries the enemies brains...
Extra paralysation does damage 2 per round.

Jasper

October 6th, 2003, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jasper:
The Shedu's inability to wear an Astral Skullcap, 125 cost, and starting with only 1 Astral is particularily bad.The Shedu has a head slot, actually.<hr /></blockquote>D'oh! I looked up the other stats, but was too lazy to create a Pretender and a game to check that bit.

Nagot Gick Fel

October 7th, 2003, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by Jasper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jasper:
The Shedu's inability to wear an Astral Skullcap, 125 cost, and starting with only 1 Astral is particularily bad.The Shedu has a head slot, actually.<hr /></blockquote>D'oh! I looked up the other stats, but was too lazy to create a Pretender and a game to check that bit.<hr /></blockquote>If there weren't better pretender choices for Arco, I could be tempted to play a Shedu. Either without extra magic, or with earth 3-4. At least when he dies, you get a magic duel-immune pretender who can still use Invulnerability. It's just ridiculous that the Great Mother is cheaper and can give you everything the Shedu has - you just need a pair of Winged Shoes - and more.

Nagot Gick Fel

October 7th, 2003, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by Jasper:
The Shedu's inability to wear an Astral Skullcap, 125 cost, and starting with only 1 Astral is particularily bad.The Shedu has a head slot, actually.

Nagot Gick Fel

October 7th, 2003, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Can it be that no one gives their pretenders astral picks?I played an "Astral Queen" Virtue twice in PBEM and terrorized Pythium, Arco and Abysia with her. With decent equipment and Vortex of Returning as my 5th spell I could TP or gate on my enemies and slay up to 4 astral mages/game turn with little risk. What's funny is both games happened before the MD fix patch, and they could easily have her bite the dust ;-)

Even with the fix this strat remains valid (albeit a bit more risky) - and I wouldn't design a costly pretender without thinking about it.

Nerfix

October 7th, 2003, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jasper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jasper:
The Shedu's inability to wear an Astral Skullcap, 125 cost, and starting with only 1 Astral is particularily bad.The Shedu has a head slot, actually.<hr /></blockquote>D'oh! I looked up the other stats, but was too lazy to create a Pretender and a game to check that bit.<hr /></blockquote>If there weren't better pretender choices for Arco, I could be tempted to play a Shedu. Either without extra magic, or with earth 3-4. At least when he dies, you get a magic duel-immune pretender who can still use Invulnerability. It's just ridiculous that the Great Mother is cheaper and can give you everything the Shedu has - you just need a pair of Winged Shoes - and more.<hr /></blockquote>It's kinda same with Void Lord:
He costs 125 points, as much as one positive scale to 3 would cost, he has worse starting Dominion than Dagon, and it seems the cost of starting magic picks goes up too high: the Last pick from 8 to 9 Astral costs something 100 points!

And yet again, yes, R'lyeh can take Cold/Heat and Slothness scale to some extent, but they reduce your income. Money=Important to R'lyeh.

[ October 07, 2003, 06:15: Message edited by: Nerfix ]