Noob questions! [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Truper

October 7th, 2003, 04:48 PM

1. "Best" is pretty hard to define http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif A couple of strategies you can try: a) Give your pretender magic that your race doesn't otherwise have. Suppose you are playing Man - you might design a pretender with fire magic, so you can find fire sites, craft fire-based magic items and cast nasty fire evocations. b) Pick out a specific spell from the spell manual that you think would be fun to cast, and design your pretender to be able to cast it.

Magic Duel is pretty simple really - if an astral mage casts Magic Duel and the enemy has an astral mage present, they will "duel" and one of them will die. The greater astral skill your mage has, the greater the chance that he will win the duel. The relevance to Pretender design is this: suppose you decide to invest in a magic-heavy pretender (rather that putting the design points into dominion scales or castle), and you include a point or two of astral skill. Then an opponent who has a mage with 3 or 4 points of astral skill can duel your pretender, and all those design points are wasted. So the common wisdom seems to be that you either take no astral on your pretender, or you take a lot so that you will tend to win duels. A third way (as I belive Pocus pointed out) is to take moderate astral, but plan on keeping your pretender out of combat.

2. That's largely a matter of style. I personally tend to favor quality over quantity, but both work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

3. If you're going to take 6+ levels in a school, be very sure that your strategy requires it - very few spells need 6 or more levels in a school, so unless you think those spells are very important, taking that many levels is a waste.

4. The stronger your dominion, the easier it is to spread it out into the world. Your troops get a morale bonus when fighting in your dominion.

5. The short answer - supply "radiates" from castles out to 4 provinces, IIRC. The further from a castle, the less supply. For the long answer, read the manual http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Build castles where there is something important to protect, or where you need more supply, or where you want to build more troops than the current resouces of the province allows.

6. Build a castle there. The administration value of a castle draws that % of resources from neighboring provinces that you control. There is also an Earth ritual called Riches from Beneath that will raise the resources of provinces under your dominion.

Gandalf Parker

October 7th, 2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
I am very new to Dominions, so I have some strategic questions:

1. What is the best combination of magic schools to make a decent pretender? Take lot of astral levels? I read something about those magic duels but I don't understand it at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif There is no best. There is only Pros and Cons. The game has excellent balance (the opposite of "best"). Each of the magic schools has some great points to it but it depends alot on your style of play. I might say that certain choices are "best" but it would only be best because I have a certain style of play (in my case a jack of all trades going for surprise and unusual slim-chance tactics). Do you play continually aggressive barbarian horde style? Sneaky assassin style? Defensive to do alot of research style? build-up and rush out style? Diplomacy?

As far as astral there is a fairly common agreement that if you take any of it, you need to take a really good amount of it because it makes you susceptable to some attacks.

2. What is better? Recruit and summon the strongest armies what you can, or mass the weaker units? Again this depends on your style. And "better" would depend on also who you are going up against. One of the great things about this game (and one of the irriating things) is that no one tactic works the same against all of the opponents.

3. Is it worth to take 6+ levels in a magic school -> Specialize? Or take 3-4 levels from more? There are those who prefer both of these. The 6+ levels usually means pushing fast for a particular spell that you use really well. The other usually means doing searching for sites. Both have pros and cons often depending on the size of the map, how many opponents, are the human or AI players, etc.

4. What is the purpose of Dominion strength? Ahhh excellent question. The dominion is represented in the game by the candles which is really a good choice. If you turn on the dominion highlighting on the map while you play a game you will see the "light" in your strong dominion areas get bright, and a spreading darkness caused by enemy dominions. The dominion is the "light of your power" spreading across the land.

The stronger that light in a province, the more benefit it recieves. The choices you made in the scales will affect more. Your prophet and your pretender both receive benefits in things like hit points. Certain spells are stnger in your dominion and some wont work at all unless your dominion is strong there.

Notice that the strength of your dominion does not have to agree with what provinces you control. A darkness inside your provinces might mean a site is affecting it which you have not yet discovered. Or it might mean that another player is pushing in toward you. Your dominion extending past your owned provinces will give you information about them such as population and defences.

5. How the supply is working exactly? Is it good to build castles in all provinces? Castles are sucking the resources away from other provinces??? Not all provinces. Im not sure if there would be a working strategy around that. I do wish the two smallest castle options were cheaper since there are races where having alot of castles quickly would be good. Generally, you can place a few castles strategically to gain more benefits than just the admin stuff. Bottleneck positions, particular local troops that you wish you had more resource points for, protecting important sites/labs/temples.

6. How can I raise the amount of the resources in a province? Building a castle that has admin bonuses. Having certain scales kicked up and putting temples or priests there to raise the dominion strength.

This is all so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif So far is right! heehee. Sounds like you are getting into the first phase of it all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Sorry if I overdid the answers. Im an out-of-work Customer Support person.

[ October 07, 2003, 16:16: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Nagot Gick Fel

October 7th, 2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:1. What is the best combination of magic schools to make a decent pretender? Take lot of astral levels? I read something about those magic duels but I don't understand it at all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Most of the time you'll pick magic schools your national mages aren't proficient in.

Above all, if your nation sucks at air magic, pick air 3+, so you can protect your troops against lightning and shut down enemy fliers and archers by casting Storm or forging a Staff of Storms.

Earth 2-3 is useful to locate Firbog castles and forge Dwarven Hammers, and allows super combattants to cast Invulnerability on themselves (increases protection up to 30).

The air 3/earth 2-3 combo is cool as it allows you to forge Staves of Elemental Mastery, a nice enhancing item to have.

Fire and water magic have less to offer than the 2 other elemental schools - IMO. When I do choose them, I usually pick fire 3 (or only 2 if I have a bit of death magic), and water 2.

Astral magic is one of the most useful schools, if you're not afraid of being magic duelled.

Nature and Death are also interesting schools with powerful enchantments and conjurations, but nature and death independent mages (druids and Harab Seraphs) are not that uncommon, so you can skip these schools and still hope to find these in your starting area.

Blood magic is special, if you're not ready to commit to it seriously you'd better skip it completely. Since blood slaves aren't collected at magic sites, blood magic is more potent on maps with a low magic site frequency. Its main interest is the ultra-powerful summons you get at research level 4 and 6.

Magic Duel is an astral spell which have you confront an enemy astral mage. The most skilled mage usually wins, and the loser dies - plain and simple. That's why there's a race for astral supremacy in Dominions.

2. What is better? Recruit and summon the strongest armies what you can, or mass the weaker units?

Look at morale and protection first. Then look at the damage rating of your primary weapon - or at weapons with multiples attacks if your main enemy uses low-protection troops like flagellants.

3. Is it worth to take 6+ levels in a magic school -> Specialize? Or take 3-4 levels from more?

Usually the later, although I sometimes go with high astral (7+) because I'm a coward, or mid-high death to get the most out of reanimation and conjuration spells.

4. What is the purpose of Dominion strength?

(a) Without it you die.
(b) Higher morale for your troops in your dominion
(c) Increased stats for your pretender and your prophet.
(d) Keep Ermor in check! ;-)

With most nations a dominion of 3-6 is OK. A bit higher for cold/heat loving ones. Underwater nations often take it higher because it's harder for them to maintain a steady dominion unless they conquer several coastal provinces.

5. How the supply is working exactly? Is it good to build castles in all provinces? Castles are sucking the resources away from other provinces???

Supply is based on the population of the province you're in, its growth/death scale and its heat/cold scale. In addition nearby castles send supplies up to 5 provinces away, based on their administration value, as long as a friendly path can be traced to the province. Nature mages provide a few supplies to their troops. A few items and special creatures also do this.

6. How can I raise the amount of the resources in a province?

Lower unrest. Build castles.

DominionsFan

October 7th, 2003, 06:05 PM

Whoa! Thanks for your replies, vets! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

ywl

October 7th, 2003, 06:33 PM

Pocus

October 7th, 2003, 08:23 PM

just an added note, if you liked in your youth those surprise boxes which had half a dozen unknown toys, then choose luck +3 (and some disorder scale).
You wil get interesting random events, like mines which will boost permanently gold and resource productions (well mostly gold) in the province targeted by the event.

Nerfix

October 7th, 2003, 08:29 PM

Before this turns into The Eternal Duel Between House Order and House Disorder and Luck, i'll just say this:

Taking Order, Growth and Productivity is like making investments.

Taking Luck and Disorder is like gambling.

I'm not saying which one is better...
It also depends on the nation.

Kristoffer O

October 7th, 2003, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
just an added note, if you liked in your youth those surprise boxes which had half a dozen unknown toys, then choose luck +3 (and some disorder scale).
You wil get interesting random events, like mines which will boost permanently gold and resource productions (well mostly gold) in the province targeted by the event.Even more fun: take disorder 3 and misfortune 3. You will now be able to see your empire crumble without the intervention of nasty enemies. You can do it all by yourself. There are more bad events than good ones so if you like diversity I recommend this approach. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mortifer

October 7th, 2003, 09:03 PM

Dominions is very unique and lot more complicated than the usual strategy games, so you can choose lot of different tactics to win. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

QuarianRex

October 7th, 2003, 09:51 PM

I have a question about the deathmatches that occur every now and then. I sent a dusk elder into th first one which he subsequently won. Ever since, he has been automaticaly sent back whenever a new deathmatch occurs. Thus far he has won every time. My question is, am I supposed to be getting a reward for remaining champion?

I haven't recieved a prize since the first event (and even then it was a cursed trident). Do you only get the prize if you defeat the champion? Is the only prize that crumby cursed trident that gets passed on to each new champ?

Nerfix

October 7th, 2003, 09:54 PM

johan osterman

October 7th, 2003, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by QuarianRex:
I have a question about the deathmatches that occur every now and then. I sent a dusk elder into th first one which he subsequently won. Ever since, he has been automaticaly sent back whenever a new deathmatch occurs. Thus far he has won every time. My question is, am I supposed to be getting a reward for remaining champion?

I haven't recieved a prize since the first event (and even then it was a cursed trident). Do you only get the prize if you defeat the champion? Is the only prize that crumby cursed trident that gets passed on to each new champ?It's supposed to be a wandering trophy, like a those ugly buckets passed around in sport circuits, so since he keeps winning he just keeps the trophy. The champ has to defend his title. The arena has allways generated a suprising amount of complaints and suggestions compared to how small part it plays in the overall scheme of the game.

[ October 07, 2003, 21:00: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Nerfix

October 7th, 2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QuarianRex:
I have a question about the deathmatches that occur every now and then. I sent a dusk elder into th first one which he subsequently won. Ever since, he has been automaticaly sent back whenever a new deathmatch occurs. Thus far he has won every time. My question is, am I supposed to be getting a reward for remaining champion?

I haven't recieved a prize since the first event (and even then it was a cursed trident). Do you only get the prize if you defeat the champion? Is the only prize that crumby cursed trident that gets passed on to each new champ?It's supposed to be a wandering trophy, like a those ugly buckets passed around in sport circuits, so since he keeps winning he just keeps the trophy. The champ has to defend his title. The arena has allways generated a suprising amount of complaints and suggestions compared to how small part it plays in the overall scheme of the game.<hr /></blockquote>But i love the arena combat!
It's the best place to cast Curse, Seven Years Fever and Horror Mark! When i play an Astral nation i alwasy script the combatant to cast Curse and/or Horror Mark if he can cast those spells.

Gandalf Parker

October 7th, 2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
But i love the arena combat!
It's the best place to cast Curse, Seven Years Fever and Horror Mark! When i play an Astral nation i alwasy script the combatant to cast Curse and/or Horror Mark if he can cast those spells.I like to create cursed daggers, exploding amulets, and cursing shields as early as possible just to have them ready for the arenas.
I tend to send someone who isnt going to Last more than one combat anyway. Getting a chance to curse someones main leader or prophet or pretender is too good to pass up.

I also love to send mercenary commanders that have used up all their troops. I dont send the amulet then since sometimes those guys do real well. Either way I dont have to worry about the automatic return.

Personally I think they could do some tweaking on the arena thing.

Daynarr

October 7th, 2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by QuarianRex:
I have a question about the deathmatches that occur every now and then. I sent a dusk elder into th first one which he subsequently won. Ever since, he has been automaticaly sent back whenever a new deathmatch occurs. Thus far he has won every time. My question is, am I supposed to be getting a reward for remaining champion?

I haven't recieved a prize since the first event (and even then it was a cursed trident). Do you only get the prize if you defeat the champion? Is the only prize that crumby cursed trident that gets passed on to each new champ?It's supposed to be a wandering trophy, like a those ugly buckets passed around in sport circuits, so since he keeps winning he just keeps the trophy. The champ has to defend his title. The arena has allways generated a suprising amount of complaints and suggestions compared to how small part it plays in the overall scheme of the game.<hr /></blockquote>But i love the arena combat!
It's the best place to cast Curse, Seven Years Fever and Horror Mark! When i play an Astral nation i alwasy script the combatant to cast Curse and/or Horror Mark if he can cast those spells.<hr /></blockquote>Its also a good place to get blinded by Machaka (they start with that spell). Particularly bad idea is to send 500 gold worth Niefelheim Prophet and get blinded first turn by Machakan Sorceress. Talk about OUCH. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mortifer

October 7th, 2003, 11:07 PM

I love Arena combat, hopefully it will be even better in Doms II. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Daynarr

October 7th, 2003, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I like to create cursed daggers, exploding amulets, and cursing shields as early as possible just to have them ready for the arenas.
I tend to send someone who isnt going to Last more than one combat anyway. Getting a chance to curse someones main leader or prophet or pretender is too good to pass up.

I also love to send mercenary commanders that have used up all their troops. I dont send the amulet then since sometimes those guys do real well. Either way I dont have to worry about the automatic return.

Personally I think they could do some tweaking on the arena thing.Dude, you are EVIL. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Just plain EVIL. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Not that I'm any better ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ October 07, 2003, 22:08: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Saber Cherry

October 7th, 2003, 11:24 PM

I think the arena is a really neat part of the game. But, of course, I always have suggestions:)

The Champion's Trident is sweet. Really nice. But not nice enough, for me, to compensate for the loss of a second hand slot on a combat unit (I would only want the Champion's Trident on a mage). The fact that it is cursed makes it interesting... but, combined with the fact that it takes up 2 slots... not great. If it was 1-handed, or had a couple extra bonuses (reinvigoration, armor-piercing), then I might consider sending valuable units to fight in the arena, but as it stands I don't want to get a valuable unit (except a combat mage) stuck with it.

Then there's the matter of the physical location of the arena. Shouldn't owning it net you some advantage? I mean, since it DOES exist in the real world, the magic and heat scales should certainly affect it... even if it exempted from Dominion strength. Of course, for all I know, maybe these already affect arena combat.

Next up: Arena Squad Deathmatch, in which you send a leaderless group of normal units of total combined size <= 20. And no routing is allowed!

-Cherry

Psitticine

October 7th, 2003, 11:24 PM

LOL on the Arena deathtrap idea! I'd not thought of that one! I think I'll try it in my current game since the enemy Pretender is competing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Mortifer

October 7th, 2003, 11:32 PM

Arena DM! Whoa another nice idea there, Saber! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Psitticine

October 7th, 2003, 11:52 PM

The Arena is, in fact, present in Dom II as a site. It adds some amount of income per turn to the owner of its home province. I'm not sure but I think the dominion of the province defines the nature of the battlefield as well.

Home court advantage, anyone?

Jasper

October 8th, 2003, 12:15 AM

I rarely enter a death match as I simply don't see the Trident as desireable. For a mage it's not worth risking death, and more usefull weapons are forgeable for melee commanders (e.g. I would generally prefer a Wraith Sword).

If it were one handed (e.g. as used by Retiarius Gladiators), life draining, armor negating, or simply not cursed I'd consider using it.

Daynarr

October 8th, 2003, 12:20 AM

AFAIK Champions Trident quickens your commander so he can do 2 actions in 1 turn. That�s VERY handy for both mages and fighters.

[ October 07, 2003, 23:30: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Saber Cherry

October 8th, 2003, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by Daynarr:
AFAIK Champions Trident quickens your commander so he can do 2 actions in 1 turn. That�s VERY handy for both mages and fighters.Yep. That's why I like in on a mage, so he doesn't have to cast quickness or wear boots of quickness... which are not available to a lot of races. But I find there are much better setups for fighters. And even on a mage, 2 arm slots gone means 2 magic power enhancing items he can't wear.

Wick

October 8th, 2003, 02:54 AM

As far as the arena goes, I've always felt that if all my enemies want to get together and fight among themselves then I'm happy to stand aside and let them. Also happy to cringe when an AI sends someone like Brangwen the Blind into the meat grinder...

Jasper

October 8th, 2003, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Daynarr:
AFAIK Champions Trident quickens your commander so he can do 2 actions in 1 turn. That�s VERY handy for both mages and fighters.Yes, I realize this. It simply isn't enough to make it worth it, even with out the inherent risk of trying to get it. Quickness is quite nice, but it's also easy to get in other ways.

I can see that very early in the game it might be a boon to expansion -- but very early in the game the risk is proportionally much greater.

Pocus

October 8th, 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
just an added note, if you liked in your youth those surprise boxes which had half a dozen unknown toys, then choose luck +3 (and some disorder scale).
You wil get interesting random events, like mines which will boost permanently gold and resource productions (well mostly gold) in the province targeted by the event.Even more fun: take disorder 3 and misfortune 3. You will now be able to see your empire crumble without the intervention of nasty enemies. You can do it all by yourself. There are more bad events than good ones so if you like diversity I recommend this approach. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>nice idea, you are really wicked! I propose a challenge : take a nation, put the scales at disorder 3, sloth 3, death 3, luck -3, drain 3, and add some 2-3 impossible AI. The one which Last the longuer will have his name praised in the forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ermor & maritime nations excluded ?

Pocus

October 8th, 2003, 08:21 AM

Frankly it must be me, but I dont see the point in this whole arena concept, as it is now. Well, if the goal is to weaken the AI, then it works perfectly.

The sole interest, and nearly all your Posts confirm it, is that it is a way for the player to abuse the AI.

No sane player would dare commit a decent leader into the arena. On the other hand, the AI is coded to engage a worthy combattant, be it a prophet, his god, or another commander.

yes it can be fun at time, example your first solo game of dominions. After you discover what lie behind the feature, you only use it to exploit the AI opponents.

DominionsFan

October 8th, 2003, 09:11 AM

Yup, the AI must be tweaked for the Arena matches in Doms II. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ October 08, 2003, 08:11: Message edited by: DominionsFAN ]

johan osterman

October 8th, 2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
Frankly it must be me, but I dont see the point in this whole arena concept, as it is now. Well, if the goal is to weaken the AI, then it works perfectly.The arena is not supposed to have a point, it is supposed to be fun. The trident is not supposed to be the best weapon in the game, it is supposed to be a sticky trident. The whole thing is just a feature slapped on because it is neat, there is no particular point to it.

Mortifer

October 8th, 2003, 09:28 AM

Johan, it is a very good thing to have an arena combat. I think that it should be upgraded even.
I think the champ should get random magic items. Those items should be unique, and only given for arena champs.
I agree that the AI should be tweaked for the Arena matches, IE. the AI should make an Arena competitor only with the right equipment, and stop sending in his best leaders in bad equipment, etc.

[ October 08, 2003, 08:28: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Pocus

October 8th, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
Frankly it must be me, but I dont see the point in this whole arena concept, as it is now. Well, if the goal is to weaken the AI, then it works perfectly.The arena is not supposed to have a point, it is supposed to be fun. The trident is not supposed to be the best weapon in the game, it is supposed to be a sticky trident. The whole thing is just a feature slapped on because it is neat, there is no particular point to it.<hr /></blockquote>ah yes, it is fun in the sense 'what can I do to screw this stupid AI this time? Should I bring explosion medaillion, cursed items, totem shield?'.
I can understand than one can have fun reviewing the battles generated and see all these AI prophets or gods going down or be cursed or afflicted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Aristoteles

October 8th, 2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
Frankly it must be me, but I dont see the point in this whole arena concept, as it is now. Well, if the goal is to weaken the AI, then it works perfectly.The arena is not supposed to have a point, it is supposed to be fun. The trident is not supposed to be the best weapon in the game, it is supposed to be a sticky trident. The whole thing is just a feature slapped on because it is neat, there is no particular point to it.<hr /></blockquote>ah yes, it is fun in the sense 'what can I do to screw this stupid AI this time? Should I bring explosion medaillion, cursed items, totem shield?'.
I can understand than one can have fun reviewing the battles generated and see all these AI prophets or gods going down or be cursed or afflicted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr /></blockquote>LOL..sad but true. Arena is a very good idea, but the AI sucks in Doms I. It is way to easy to abuse the AI. [Curse etc. etc.]

[ October 08, 2003, 11:14: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

johan osterman

October 8th, 2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
ah yes, it is fun in the sense 'what can I do to screw this stupid AI this time? Should I bring explosion medaillion, cursed items, totem shield?'.
I can understand than one can have fun reviewing the battles generated and see all these AI prophets or gods going down or be cursed or afflicted. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I think you are overstating your case. If you bring an amulet or veneance or other similar item you can just screw with one of the AI nations. And so what if the AI's prohpet dies, it is not like it puts a huge dent in his carefully laid plans.

Mortifer

October 8th, 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
I agree with both Johann - the Arena concept is fun - and Pocus - it's an open door for abusing AIs ...
May I suggest some tweaks that I think will make the "game" fairer and more interesting ?

1/ NO items in the Arena, the combattants enter naked, all their stuff go to the Lab
2/ At the end of the fights, all survivors are fully healed/cured/restored/curses removed, they come back as new, only the dead remain dead !
3/ Prizes should be various powerful unique artifacts, or a big pack of gems, not always the same half-potent but cursed weapon

I think that those rules would kill most of the arena cheese, the players would either have to pass on an opportunity to kill enemies and gain something worthwhile, or send themselves powerful leaders (as the AI does and as the devs intended to design Arena combat).
I concur that the Dom1 Arena prize isn't that good, it's nice with a supercombatant pretender or a big fighter type leader if you get it very early, but even so ends later as a drawback as you can't get rid of it when you can forge better stuff ...Hell yeah! Very good ideas! I agree with this totally. This would stop the AI abusing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Pocus

October 8th, 2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
I propose a challenge : take a nation, put the scales at disorder 3, sloth 3, death 3, luck -3, drain 3, and add some 2-3 impossible AI. The one which Last the longuer will have his name praised in the forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ermor & maritime nations excluded ?Something like that was already done in the past - we call that a "death game": no Ermor, common random events, everyone has to pick max turmoil and max unluck.

If you ever play in this kind of game, let me give you a hint: growth and production aren't worth s***, except in the very early stage. After a while your provinces will be so depleted you won't see any difference between growth+3 and death+3 ;-).<hr /></blockquote>Stone idols allowed? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ October 08, 2003, 16:30: Message edited by: Psitticine ]

licker

October 8th, 2003, 04:43 PM

As to the arena thing...

Perhaps a penalty should be assesed to nations that don't enter the arena, futher penalties could be assesed depending on how well your champions does. Loses right away your people get more unrest, wins the whole thing, unrest goes down, or extra cash is raised... somethings like that.

This way it makes sense for every nation to start training arena competators (at least to some extent) otherwise they can get hit in their economy. Heh if you want to be really cruel give curses to all commanders of a nation that doesn't send a representative to the arena http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Saber Cherry

October 8th, 2003, 05:36 PM

Another possiblity would be a temporary dominion increase of 1 candle/province for the winner, and a temporary decrease of 1 candle/province for any nation who does not enter the competition. This would be nice and thematic... who can have faith in a God who can't even muster a champion for the world Arena tournament? An increase in unrest in all provinces, as was mentioned, would also work... as would a temporary decrease in tax revenue... or getting hit by a couple "bad luck" events. In these cases, nobody would dare to not enter the Arena.

A great addition would be "Qualifying Rounds", where each competitor MUST win a simple qualifying fight against an experienced gladiator (or an experienced indy prot-15 commander, for example). If you lose this qualifying fight it is the same as having not entered. This would have several effects. First, sending in a suicide competitor with an exploding medallion, etc. would no longer work. Second, you could not simply send a cheap, disposable scout or priest to have "technically" entered, without really trying. Lastly, it would add extra, interesting Arena rounds, so you can get a feel for the competitors' strengths before they start duelling! I find reviewing the Arena fights to be a lot of fun, and this would make it even more so.

-Cherry

Nagot Gick Fel

October 8th, 2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
[Death games] Stone idols allowed? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Never thought about stone idols! I believe that's a patch item, I don't remember if it existed when we had our little death game.

Hmmm, BTW, does anyone use stone idols often? I tried maybe a couple times, and didn't notice a strong effect (if any at all) on my neighbor's dominion.

Nagot Gick Fel

October 8th, 2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by licker:
As to the arena thing...

Perhaps a penalty should be assesed to nations that don't enter the arena, futher penalties could be assesed depending on how well your champions does.Err, if that idea was ever implemented, I think in MP most arena events would feature mostly scouts.

DominionsFan

October 8th, 2003, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PDF:
I agree with both Johann - the Arena concept is fun - and Pocus - it's an open door for abusing AIs ...
May I suggest some tweaks that I think will make the "game" fairer and more interesting ?

1/ NO items in the Arena, the combattants enter naked, all their stuff go to the Lab
2/ At the end of the fights, all survivors are fully healed/cured/restored/curses removed, they come back as new, only the dead remain dead !
3/ Prizes should be various powerful unique artifacts, or a big pack of gems, not always the same half-potent but cursed weapon

I think that those rules would kill most of the arena cheese, the players would either have to pass on an opportunity to kill enemies and gain something worthwhile, or send themselves powerful leaders (as the AI does and as the devs intended to design Arena combat).
I concur that the Dom1 Arena prize isn't that good, it's nice with a supercombatant pretender or a big fighter type leader if you get it very early, but even so ends later as a drawback as you can't get rid of it when you can forge better stuff ...Hell yeah! Very good ideas! I agree with this totally. This would stop the AI abusing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <hr /></blockquote>I agree. This is the best idea so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Saber Cherry

October 8th, 2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PDF:

1/ NO items in the Arena, the combattants enter naked, all their stuff go to the Lab
2/ At the end of the fights, all survivors are fully healed/cured/restored/curses removed, they come back as new, only the dead remain dead !
3/ Prizes should be various powerful unique artifacts, or a big pack of gems, not always the same half-potent but cursed weapon
Hell yeah! Very good ideas! I agree with this totally. This would stop the AI abusing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <hr /></blockquote>I agree. This is the best idea so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>...I like 3, but I really dislike 1 and 2. A qualifying round would stop AI abuse without negatively altering the nature of arena combat. The way I see it, removing the ability to equip competitors means that a God, Jotun, or astral mage will always win. And removing afflictions afterward... seems unrealistic, and makes it a zero-risk proposition for the strongest entrant.

licker

October 8th, 2003, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by licker:
As to the arena thing...

Perhaps a penalty should be assesed to nations that don't enter the arena, futher penalties could be assesed depending on how well your champions does.Err, if that idea was ever implemented, I think in MP most arena events would feature mostly scouts.<hr /></blockquote>Maybe, but then if your scout gets knocked out early you still suffer some penalty to your nation. The trick is to make the risk/reward/punishment scale meaningful without overbalancing it. Others I'm sure have more experience and better ideas than I do, but I think the premise is sound.

Send no one, really bad things happen.
Send a wuss who gets knocked out fast, bad things happen.
Send someone who does mediocre... neutral.
Send someone who makes the finals (semis whatever) small good things happen.
Send someone who becomes the champion... better things happen.

Furthermore, make a penalty to a nation who has the champion when he loses. That way if you want to you can send a tougher dude than the champion to give that nation a headache, then the next time another nation will send a stronger competator... eventually the cycle could wind up with fairly decent if not out right strong champions being taken on by buffed opponents to knock out that champion.

Its all in how the payoff is set up...

Pocus

October 9th, 2003, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
I think you are overstating your case. If you bring an amulet or veneance or other similar item you can just screw with one of the AI nations. And so what if the AI's prohpet dies, it is not like it puts a huge dent in his carefully laid plans.[/QB]You are right : it is not that much important to send or not cursed items or booby traps to the arena, the problem lie elsewhere, so let me point out the obvious then : there can only be one survivor from the Arena.
The AI is coded to send a powerful minion, or even the god. This lead to the fact that each arena event is the perfect thing to kill a lot of good/special commanders, or even - shiver - gods from the AI, for a prize which is very meager (a proof being that no player will send a critical commander in the arena).

Oh look Abysia lost his equipped archdevil, oh look Jotun lost Angerboda, oh look Pythium lost his god.
I dont think that the AI need this thorn in his side, frankly. Or at least give a real benefit to the winner, a benefit big enough that players will consider entering the arena. If they do not enter the arena, then I still dont see the point of having it.

Anyway, thats your game not mine, the feature was added because it is fun for you, so my arguing has no real purpose...

PDF

October 9th, 2003, 01:48 AM

I agree with both Johann - the Arena concept is fun - and Pocus - it's an open door for abusing AIs ...
May I suggest some tweaks that I think will make the "game" fairer and more interesting ?

1/ NO items in the Arena, the combattants enter naked, all their stuff go to the Lab
2/ At the end of the fights, all survivors are fully healed/cured/restored/curses removed, they come back as new, only the dead remain dead !
3/ Prizes should be various powerful unique artifacts, or a big pack of gems, not always the same half-potent but cursed weapon

I think that those rules would kill most of the arena cheese, the players would either have to pass on an opportunity to kill enemies and gain something worthwhile, or send themselves powerful leaders (as the AI does and as the devs intended to design Arena combat).
I concur that the Dom1 Arena prize isn't that good, it's nice with a supercombatant pretender or a big fighter type leader if you get it very early, but even so ends later as a drawback as you can't get rid of it when you can forge better stuff ...

Nagot Gick Fel

October 9th, 2003, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
I propose a challenge : take a nation, put the scales at disorder 3, sloth 3, death 3, luck -3, drain 3, and add some 2-3 impossible AI. The one which Last the longuer will have his name praised in the forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ermor & maritime nations excluded ?Something like that was already done in the past - we call that a "death game": no Ermor, common random events, everyone has to pick max turmoil and max unluck.

If you ever play in this kind of game, let me give you a hint: growth and production aren't worth s***, except in the very early stage. After a while your provinces will be so depleted you won't see any difference between growth+3 and death+3 ;-).

(Note from Psitticine: Sorry to have gone in and edited here, but there are the usual "child friendly" language policies in place here.)

[ October 08, 2003, 16:29: Message edited by: Psitticine ]

Mortifer

October 9th, 2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PDF:

1/ NO items in the Arena, the combattants enter naked, all their stuff go to the Lab
2/ At the end of the fights, all survivors are fully healed/cured/restored/curses removed, they come back as new, only the dead remain dead !
3/ Prizes should be various powerful unique artifacts, or a big pack of gems, not always the same half-potent but cursed weapon
Hell yeah! Very good ideas! I agree with this totally. This would stop the AI abusing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <hr /></blockquote>I agree. This is the best idea so far. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>...I like 3, but I really dislike 1 and 2. A qualifying round would stop AI abuse without negatively altering the nature of arena combat. The way I see it, removing the ability to equip competitors means that a God, Jotun, or astral mage will always win. And removing afflictions afterward... seems unrealistic, and makes it a zero-risk proposition for the strongest entrant.<hr /></blockquote>I think the ONLY way to balance the Arena fights and stop the AI abusing if items wont be allowed in the arena matches.
If the items are allowed you can abuse the AI easily, IE send in a crap commander to curse the pretender etc. etc. etc.

Do you have any other idea, that how to stop AI abusing?

OR there is another solution: Do not allowed specific item types only, like cursing items etc. Maybe that should do it as well.

[ October 09, 2003, 09:09: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Nagot Gick Fel

October 9th, 2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by licker:
Its all in how the payoff is set up...I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.

Pocus

October 9th, 2003, 02:00 PM

It is obious that IW cant spend too much time on every minute feature of the game, so I propose we drop this dicussion. The issues are :

- in MP : no issue, nobody will use the arena.
- in SP : if the player want to cheat the AI he is playing against, then he can send a trapped commander. If it amuses him to play fairly, then he can send a normal commander.

Anyway, the arena concept of Illwinter is not to have a nice place where you can earn nice toys, its just a secondary (or tertiary) feature which will remain as it is, for the best or the worst of the game.

Truper

October 9th, 2003, 02:06 PM

Amen. It seems we have a lot of posters desperate to make mountains out of molehills.

johan osterman

October 9th, 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by MStavros:Johan, let me ask you a question. Why do you support cheating? In singleplayer, the AI can be abused totally in the Arena fights.
Illwinter must fix this, since this is the most annoying cheat in Dominions I.
It is working in multiplayer, since you cannot abuse anything, but in singleplayer it is a bad part of the game, and only because the AI abusing.

It can be fixed. We told you some ideas, that how to fix it, you should think about it.
Please do not forget that we have lot of players who prefer the singleplayer part of the game.

I see 2 ways, that how to fix the singleplayer Arena AI abusing:

-Do not allow items in the arena
-Do not allow 'abuse items' in the arena, so items like a flaming sword should be allowed for example, but items with curse etc. shouldnt be allowed.etc..

(-In fact, if Doms would be a multiplayer game only, I wouldnt even buy it, since I do not really like multiplayer in any games. [Especially not in strategy games.]-)

The Arena fight is very good part of the game, but it must be fixed. Please support the offline players as well.I doubt we will see eye to eye on this, but I do not agree the AI can be "abused totally" in SP. Nor do I think cheating is applicable unless you play multi player, if you 'cheat' against an AI the only person you might potentionally hurt is yourself.

You can at most screw with one of the AI players, since if you die you turn over your items or some of them to the AI, if you win there isnt a problem. You can only die once. So you can only give your items to one AI. This AI player might not even have sent a particularily valuable commander, it is not like it allways sends Pretenders in fact the AI does this in less than 25% of the cases even if it has a combat pretender. Even if you do land a cursed item on the opposite pretender this doesn't affect the AI in a big way, an AI is not clever enough to plan to use any of its particular units in a well thought through way. A cursed item might slightly dent its abilities but it will not affect it in a major way. And chances are that your cursed item ends up on a ordinary semi powerful commander like a Traitor Prince or Cataphract Commander. In which case the forging of the item probably has cost you more than it has cost your opponent AI.

So:
1: Cheating against the AI is moronic. You can allway choose not to do it. No one is hurt but you.
2: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating. You can only do this to one AI player in an event that occurs perhaps one or two times a game.
3: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, the chance that it will end up on an AI pretender or similar powerfull unit is not particularily high.
4: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, and you do manage to pass the item on to an enemy Pretender, the actual effect of the cheat is very small.

[ October 09, 2003, 13:22: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Pocus

October 9th, 2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Truper:
Amen. It seems we have a lot of posters desperate to make mountains out of molehills.at least the thread was useful for me, I just learnt a new english idiom!

Zerger

October 9th, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MStavros:Johan, let me ask you a question. Why do you support cheating? In singleplayer, the AI can be abused totally in the Arena fights.
Illwinter must fix this, since this is the most annoying cheat in Dominions I.
It is working in multiplayer, since you cannot abuse anything, but in singleplayer it is a bad part of the game, and only because the AI abusing.

It can be fixed. We told you some ideas, that how to fix it, you should think about it.
Please do not forget that we have lot of players who prefer the singleplayer part of the game.

I see 2 ways, that how to fix the singleplayer Arena AI abusing:

-Do not allow items in the arena
-Do not allow 'abuse items' in the arena, so items like a flaming sword should be allowed for example, but items with curse etc. shouldnt be allowed.etc..

(-In fact, if Doms would be a multiplayer game only, I wouldnt even buy it, since I do not really like multiplayer in any games. [Especially not in strategy games.]-)

The Arena fight is very good part of the game, but it must be fixed. Please support the offline players as well.I doubt we will see eye to eye on this, but I do not agree the AI can be "abused totally" in SP. Nor do I think cheating is applicable unless you play multi player, if you 'cheat' against an AI the only person you might potentionally hurt is yourself.

You can at most screw with one of the AI players, since if you die you turn over your items or some of them to the AI, if you win there isnt a problem. You can only die once. So you can only give your items to one AI. This AI player might not even have sent a particularily valuable commander, it is not like it allways sends Pretenders in fact the AI does this in less than 25% of the cases even if it has a combat pretender. Even if you do land a cursed item on the opposite pretender this doesn't affect the AI in a big way, an AI is not clever enough to plan to use any of its particular units in a well thought through way. A cursed item might slightly dent its abilities but it will not affect it in a major way. And chances are that your cursed item ends up on a ordinary semi powerful commander like a Traitor Prince or Cataphract Commander. In which case the forging of the item probably has cost you more than it has cost your opponent AI.

So:
1: Cheating against the AI is moronic. You can allway choose not to do it. No one is hurt but you.
2: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating. You can only do this to one AI player in an event that occurs perhaps one or two times a game.
3: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, the chance that it will end up on an AI pretender or similar powerfull unit is not particularily high.
4: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, and you do manage to pass the item on to an enemy Pretender, the actual effect of the cheat is very small.<hr /></blockquote>Errrr I agree with them Johan. Why Illwinter cannot fix this?
Simply don't allow those AI-cheating items, and we're all good. Don't tell me, that it is hard to add this script...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ October 09, 2003, 14:31: Message edited by: Zerger ]

PDF

October 9th, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.I agree with N�got Gick Fel on this one. The arena is just intended as an amusing detail. Making the arena victory more rewarding or penalising people not participating would shift focus away from the core of the game, if either of the above where implemented it would force players into maximising a super combatant. I think it is better to keep it the way it is.<hr /></blockquote>The problem is that it's not that amusing except the first fight ... The reward is not worth the risk taken by sending a real good commander.
So in SP you either pass on it or abuse it to screw AI pretender/prophet
In MP players either pass or send crap commanders...

Just putting more varied and valuable stuff as reward would make it much more "fun" without it becoming a real focus.
My 0.02 €

st.patrik

October 9th, 2003, 04:14 PM

I can see it both ways. On the one hand, if there were such a death match and I didn't think I could win by fair play I would definitely want to take someone down with me. On the other hand, I can see the Arena Death Match Fairness Committee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif prohibiting the use of certain items - and so much the better if they did because then you might actually dare to try to win. I think it's a shame when no-one except the AI sends someone they think might win - makes it all a bit futile in MP.

If I was in charge of the Arena Death Match Improvement Committee I would outlaw the use of certain items - a short list of items officially considered to be 'cheats'. Ideally I would outlaw the use of certain spells too (like 'curse'), but that would be harder to control. I think I would also change the prize to a choice of a couple of different items, or failing that, an item more neutral - i.e. applicable to both mages and fighters, if such an item could be found (perhaps something like the Ankh, Nethgul, Alchemist's stone, The Magic Lamp, Gate Stone, or Flying Ship). Definitely I would make the item removeable, so that it could be put in a display case in the capital of the winner [though I realise that this is how the Last victor is found, in order to compete in the next arena death match].

Furthermore, I might subdivide the contest into different events - one for fighters with weapons, etc., one for fighters without special weapons, one for mages, one for archers, etc. But that would depend on popularity and funding, etc.

*edit - I think it would be pretty hard to implement, allowing certain items but not others. The only way I can think of would be flag the 'cheating' items somehow, and then have the program only offer the 'compete in arena death match' to people who were clean. Either that or have a dialogue come up saying that you have to unequip certain unlawful items, etc. when you try to compete while in the possession of Banned items

*further edit - Another thing I would outlaw were I in charge of the Improvement Committee is the entrance of pretenders - I think it ought to be non-divine commanders only. This would make it more competitive, rather than your knight commander having to face down a huge flaming skull, or undead manticore, or something like that.

[ October 09, 2003, 15:23: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

licker

October 9th, 2003, 08:51 PM

My understanding of the issue with the AI here isn't that you can stick one of them with cursed items, but rather that each AI save one loses a commander automatically when the arena event occurs.

And sending the pretender 25% of the time... that sounds like alot to me, I don't really see it as a minor issue, not do I see it as 'cheating' I see it as a mechanism which the AI doesn't handle very well, and as such gets penelized.

How about just adding a switch to turn the silly thing off, if it is truely as unimportant as you say it is, then give the option to not use it in the first place.

Mortifer

October 9th, 2003, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
....So in SP you either pass on it or abuse it to screw AI pretender/prophet
In MP players either pass or send crap commanders...
I totally agree. That it why The Arena must be fixed. It is all about the items. Just do not allow the 'abuse items' in the Arena, thats all.
I hope that the devs see our point.

PvK

October 9th, 2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by licker:

Send no one, really bad things happen.
Send a wuss who gets knocked out fast, bad things happen.
Send someone who does mediocre... neutral.
Send someone who makes the finals (semis whatever) small good things happen.
Send someone who becomes the champion... better things happen.
Sounds appropriate for a Mortal Kombat theme... but makes much more out of it than it probably should in Dominions.

Seems like the AI should only very rarely, or never, send a pretender to such a contest.

It'd be interesting to have some more varied prizes, if currently you always get the same thing.

Tournaments with varied restrictions would be interesting/amusing, but again, it's not MK. The death match really is a side show. Single-player folks complaining about the game letting them do things that they consider cheating... could have more fun if they learned self-control.

PvK

Daynarr

October 9th, 2003, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by licker:
How about just adding a switch to turn the silly thing off, if it is truely as unimportant as you say it is, then give the option to not use it in the first place.I'm not sure I follow you here. Why in the world would game need an option to turn off something you don't have to use anyway? Is there some hidden mechanism in game that forces you to participate in Arena? If you don't like it - don't use it. Additional option wont change a THING.

AI sends ONLY combat pretenders. I have never seen RM in Arena. These pretenders can be called back and they die on the battlefield occasionaly. If the get killed 1 time in Arena they wont lose a game, heck they hardly feel it.

[ October 09, 2003, 20:51: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Daynarr

October 9th, 2003, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PDF:
....So in SP you either pass on it or abuse it to screw AI pretender/prophet
In MP players either pass or send crap commanders...
I totally agree. That it why The Arena must be fixed. It is all about the items. Just do not allow the 'abuse items' in the Arena, thats all.
I hope that the devs see our point.<hr /></blockquote>I don't see the point. If you don't like to abuse AI why do it? You usually do what you don't like?
If you like abusing AI why complain?

It seems to me that lots of people either didn't read or didn't understand JO post. There is no SIGNIFICANT item abuse in the game. And if you are willing to sacrifice a leader who you must pay for and give him item that you must make in order to "give" it to AI in arena match that MAY happen I wonder who is the victim here. That's a lot of effort to plant an item (which may be even beneficial to the receiver) to AI player.

Yes I agree that Arena contest its insignificant because it wont change the outcome of the game but its like one of those free poster you receive with some game that makes you feel good and adds color to it all. It's good idea and I'm definitely against any change here.

Daynarr

October 9th, 2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Daynarr:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by licker:
How about just adding a switch to turn the silly thing off, if it is truely as unimportant as you say it is, then give the option to not use it in the first place.I'm not sure I follow you here. Why in the world would game need an option to turn off something you don't have to use anyway? Is there some hidden mechanism in game that forces you to participate in Arena? If you don't like it - don't use it. Additional option wont change a THING.

AI sends ONLY combat pretenders. I have never seen RM in Arena. These pretenders can be called back and they die on the battlefield occasionaly. If the get killed 1 time in Arena they wont lose a game, heck they hardly feel it.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry Licker. I've red your post again and I follow you now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Still, in my experience no AI had lost a game because of losing pretender in Arena. They empower them quite often and recall them very fast.

Saber Cherry

October 9th, 2003, 10:09 PM

Sounds appropriate for a Mortal Kombat theme... but makes much more out of it than it probably should in Dominions.
On the contrary! I think there should be finishing moves that you can only learn by winning in the Arena. Subsequently, a disembodied voice will call out "FATALITY" every time the champion gets a kill in battles... they could even throw in an FMV sequence that plays with each kill!

PDF

October 9th, 2003, 11:02 PM

Daynarr,
My "complaint" is that the Arena isn't much fun, mainly cause the reward is fixed and not worth the risk taken if you send a "critical" commander.
The AI abuse issue comes second.
And that's not a big issue anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Mortifer

October 9th, 2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
Daynarr,
My "complaint" is that the Arena isn't much fun, mainly cause the reward is fixed and not worth the risk taken if you send a "critical" commander.
The AI abuse issue comes second.
And that's not a big issue anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I agree again. Yes if I dont want, I wont abuse the AI, but still it is possible.
We can live with this, I am sure.
But....
The Arena is totally ignored in MP games. No one will enter with good commanders. Not just because they think that they will loose, but they do not want to win at all. Why? Because it is pointless right now as it is.

How to fix the Arena?

1.The champ's prize is not good enough. The prize should be a unique, random, Arena only magic item.
2. The champ should be totally healed.

[ October 09, 2003, 22:51: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

licker

October 9th, 2003, 11:53 PM

Hehe, glad you understand my concern now Daynarr.

I still stand by my initial thought, make it optional and everyone should be molified. I just don't see it as a dynamic the AI can handle appropritately, whether or not its a big deal to the result of the game is beside the point to me, its just annoying to know that the AI is doing something stupid for something pointless in the first place http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

MStavros

October 10th, 2003, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by licker:
Its all in how the payoff is set up...I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.<hr /></blockquote>For you. I prefer singleplayer & modding, over multiplayer.

Lot of players are preferring the singleplayer part & modding, so the arena fight must be fixed. The biggest problem is the AI abusing.

I think removing the items in arena fights is a good idea, but as Mortifer said, maybe if some items won't be allowed, that should do it too.
Just do not allow 'AI abuse' items. You know what items I meant, I am sure.

johan osterman

October 10th, 2003, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.I agree with N�got Gick Fel on this one. The arena is just intended as an amusing detail. Making the arena victory more rewarding or penalising people not participating would shift focus away from the core of the game, if either of the above where implemented it would force players into maximising a super combatant. I think it is better to keep it the way it is.

MStavros

October 10th, 2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.I agree with N�got Gick Fel on this one. The arena is just intended as an amusing detail. Making the arena victory more rewarding or penalising people not participating would shift focus away from the core of the game, if either of the above where implemented it would force players into maximising a super combatant. I think it is better to keep it the way it is.<hr /></blockquote>Johan, let me ask you a question. Why do you support cheating? In singleplayer, the AI can be abused totally in the Arena fights.
Illwinter must fix this, since this is the most annoying cheat in Dominions I.
It is working in multiplayer, since you cannot abuse anything, but in singleplayer it is a bad part of the game, and only because the AI abusing.

It can be fixed. We told you some ideas, that how to fix it, you should think about it.
Please do not forget that we have lot of players who prefer the singleplayer part of the game.

I see 2 ways, that how to fix the singleplayer Arena AI abusing:

-Do not allow items in the arena
-Do not allow 'abuse items' in the arena, so items like a flaming sword should be allowed for example, but items with curse etc. shouldnt be allowed.etc..

(-In fact, if Doms would be a multiplayer game only, I wouldnt even buy it, since I do not really like multiplayer in any games. [Especially not in strategy games.]-)

The Arena fight is very good part of the game, but it must be fixed. Please support the offline players as well.

[ October 09, 2003, 12:54: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Psitticine

October 10th, 2003, 03:18 AM

I tend to just ignore the Arena matches when they come up. If the enemy wants to play with the trident, let 'em. Still, it would be interesting to see it spiced up into something more than just another message at the beginning of the turn.

Possibly the introduction of something like a "Category" system would help? There could be a Champion of Mages, a Champion of Fighters, a Champion of Scouts, and so forth. The different battles could come up at different times and each nation can, as now, choose to compete or not. There could be a different prize for each type of champion, something appropriate for their nature, and champions could choose not to play with the penalty of forfeiting their title/item. (One of the problems I have with the Arena is that I can't afford to have one of my best commanders sucked away for a crucial turn. I'd rather have the option to forfeit.)

Maybe the titles could come with a mild bonus (+1?) in terms of a morale lift for their troops. That'd make it more worthwhile to fight, plus it'd make sense that people would feel better being commanded by the Champion of Fighters then Just Some Guy.

If a commander didn't have a certain level of magic power (say, 3, to prevent simply empowering a combat machine to slaughter the enemy mage), then they couldn't enter the Mages' bout. Likewise, if they DO have 3+ in at least one path, they are barred from that competition. If they aren't stealthy or have starting combat stats above a certain theshold, they are barred from the Scouts' battle. Pretenders would be a Category all to themselves.

I don't blame IW for not focusing on this particular issue, since it isn't a major part of the game, but it'd be nice for a role-playing type like myself to see it developed. Of course, they've been very busy doing things for the first patch, such as adding the much-requested support for units that flee combat due to orders rather than rout to remain with their armies if the battle is won. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Wick

October 10th, 2003, 05:02 AM

"2. The champ should be totally healed."

Now _this_ might be a prize worth fighting for!

The scars of old battles and ill magics faded away as the Champion, victorious and purified, set his eye again on conquest...

Saber Cherry

October 10th, 2003, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
they've been very busy doing things for the first patch, such as adding the much-requested support for units that flee combat due to orders rather than rout to remain with their armies if the battle is won. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif ??? Wow!!! I'll take this over an Arena improvement any day! Which, of course, means that the next day I'll start begging for an Arena tweak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

-Cherry

Nerfix

October 10th, 2003, 06:49 AM

st.patrik

October 10th, 2003, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
Of course, they've been very busy doing things for the first patch, such as adding the much-requested support for units that flee combat due to orders rather than rout to remain with their armies if the battle is won. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Did I read that right - that they only stay with their armies if the battle is won? What about harass 'fire & flee' tactics, where you have no intention of winning, but you want to maintain squad integrity? Is this not being implemented?

I mean, don't get me wrong, what you posted is great - I'm very satisfied. Go Illwinter.

Pocus

October 10th, 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
I don't blame IW for not focusing on this particular issue, since it isn't a major part of the game, but it'd be nice for a role-playing type like myself to see it developed. Of course, they've been very busy doing things for the first patch, such as adding the much-requested support for units that flee combat due to orders rather than rout to remain with their armies if the battle is won. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif if this true and comes in the release, then I'm really impressed by their dedication to their product, and the respect they show for the community.
congrats Illwinter!

Aristoteles

October 10th, 2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Mortifer:

How to fix the Arena?

1.The champ's prize is not good enough. The prize should be a unique, random, Arena only magic item.
2. The champ should be totally healed.I reckon this. This is a good way to upgrade the Arena!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ October 10, 2003, 08:09: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Humer

October 10th, 2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:

How to fix the Arena?

1.The champ's prize is not good enough. The prize should be a unique, random, Arena only magic item.
2. The champ should be totally healed.I reckon this. This is a good way to upgrade the Arena!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <hr /></blockquote>How about making a unique troop type recruitable for the winning side? I realise this might not be an easy job to implement, but would be cool IMO.

Or give the winner a pack of unique bodyguards (unremovable), which replenish b/w battles.

I like the idea of beefing up the arena, since I don't see it worth the risk as it is now.

- Humer

licker

October 10th, 2003, 04:02 PM

Hmm, the more I've thought about this arena issue the more it begins to annoy me.

If it was just intended as a small distraction in game fine, but if no one on this board says they bother with it, then it becomes solely a sink for AI commanders. I don't really care weather or not the effect on the AI is great or not, the arena amounts to the same thing as periodically going trough every AI nation and randomly (or not so randomly) removing a commander. Now if that were implemeted in the game I wonder how many people would be more bothered by it.

So I repeat my request to make the arena optional at the game creation phase. Shouldn't be all that hard to add another option when you already can choose site frequency, indie strengths, ...

Now some people will again say, 'don't worry, its not a big effect on game play...' to them I say, 1st I disagree with the potential effect on game balance for the AIs, and 2nd, if it really isn't a big deal, and you never use it, then why keep it around in the first place? I'm not asking for it to be ripped out, merely made optional at the start.

Of course if the risk/reward and cost/benefit of the arena were tweeked I'd probably change my mind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Pocus

October 10th, 2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by licker:
If it was just intended as a small distraction in game fine, but if no one on this board says they bother with it, then it becomes solely a sink for AI commanders. I think it summarize well the situation. It is fun for the developers at least, and a developer happy is a developer which codes better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Saber Cherry

October 10th, 2003, 04:48 PM

I like the arena, and I think it already is essentially optional. I don't think it's the big problem people are making it out to be.

Granted, I would love to see some changes (a qualifying round!), but I think that the way it is currently adds to the game.

-Cherry

licker

October 10th, 2003, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
I like the arena, and I think it already is essentially optional. I don't think it's the big problem people are making it out to be.

Granted, I would love to see some changes (a qualifying round!), but I think that the way it is currently adds to the game.

-CherryHow does it add to the game if no one is using it? It only makes life harder for the AI as every so often they simply pick a commander to lose. Big deal or not, its a needless penalty to the AI that could (probably) be easilly addressed by adding a switch.

Daynarr

October 10th, 2003, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by licker:
How does it add to the game if no one is using it? It only makes life harder for the AI as every so often they simply pick a commander to lose. Big deal or not, its a needless penalty to the AI that could (probably) be easilly addressed by adding a switch.What gives you idea that nobody uses it? I use it. Saber Cherry uses it. Any newcomer to Dom II will use it. In fact it adds flavor to the game, and if you don't like that flavor then it�s YOUR right and YOUR opinion. Not EVERYONES. So please stop making statements in my name.

[ October 10, 2003, 17:31: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Nagot Gick Fel

October 10th, 2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by licker:
How does it add to the game if no one is using it?Actually I do use it in MP when I have a not-so-important commander who can win with reasonable chances of success - like, say, a DE or Sauromancer (both can win with just summoning undead) - or a Jotun Herse or Black Servant.

Taqwus

October 10th, 2003, 06:45 PM

At least in single player I'd consider using it early, and not just to plague the AI -- early on, the experience boost is pretty much a guaranteed Hall of Fame entry. Something like quickness would come in handy.

A dusk elder, 'though, does cost 20 gems... might be a bit much to risk depending on how early it was and how much death gem income one had. Other summoners could work too. And in multiplayer, what if you run into, say, a C'tis Shaman casting Curse? Curse Lasts forever, even through resurrection by priest-recall or immortality.

Vodalian

October 10th, 2003, 07:38 PM

Another good bet, and a quite cheap one in fact, is a caelian mage. Lightning bolts combined with phantasmal warriors or mists of deception is a tactic capable of dealing with most competitors.

licker

October 10th, 2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Daynarr:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by licker:
How does it add to the game if no one is using it? It only makes life harder for the AI as every so often they simply pick a commander to lose. Big deal or not, its a needless penalty to the AI that could (probably) be easilly addressed by adding a switch.What gives you idea that nobody uses it? I use it. Saber Cherry uses it. Any newcomer to Dom II will use it. In fact it adds flavor to the game, and if you don't like that flavor then it�s YOUR right and YOUR opinion. Not EVERYONES. So please stop making statements in my name.<hr /></blockquote>Hmm what gave me the idea that no one used it (other than the people who admitted to using it to 'sabotage' the enemy) was the tone of the rest of this thread.

Ok you use it, great, now what's wrong with wanting to make it optional for those of us who feel it penalizes the AI? You will note I never said to remove it completely. All I did was state that if no one (I'm corrected on that one, so call it 10% now?) uses it, what's the point?

No one has adaquately answered the claim that it penalizes the AI yet either. All anyone has said is that its 'not a big deal'. Well that's hardly proof, and the ~25% of the time using a pretender (combat or otherwise) does seem like an issue to me for the AI.

So again, make it optional, that way everyone is happy.

MStavros

October 10th, 2003, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:

How to fix the Arena?

1.The champ's prize is not good enough. The prize should be a unique, random, Arena only magic item.
2. The champ should be totally healed.I reckon this. This is a good way to upgrade the Arena!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <hr /></blockquote>Actually this idea is very good. What about adding this to the Arena system? I think everyone will be pleased than. In fact, no players will ignore the Arena anymore, if the Arena will be tweaked like this.
Once again this is a very good way to fix the Arena.
Just my 2 cents.

[ October 10, 2003, 19:45: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Nagot Gick Fel

October 10th, 2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Vodalian:
Another good bet, and a quite cheap one in fact, is a caelian mage. Lightning bolts combined with phantasmal warriors or mists of deception is a tactic capable of dealing with most competitors.Yup, but Seraphs get less from the Trident, as they can cast Quickness easily.

Nagot Gick Fel

October 10th, 2003, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Taqwus:
A dusk elder, 'though, does cost 20 gems... might be a bit much to risk depending on how early it was and how much death gem income one had. Other summoners could work too. And in multiplayer, what if you run into, say, a C'tis Shaman casting Curse? Curse Lasts forever, even through resurrection by priest-recall or immortality.Curse doesn't bother me much in that case. Most of the time, Curse will have little or no consequence until the DE happens to be in close contact with the enemy, and then he's probably lost already. OTOH a quickened DE can be deadly - what about a death-4 DE casting Cloud of Death twice a turn endlessly?

Psitticine

October 11th, 2003, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by st.patrik:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Psitticine:
Of course, they've been very busy doing things for the first patch, such as adding the much-requested support for units that flee combat due to orders rather than rout to remain with their armies if the battle is won. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Did I read that right - that they only stay with their armies if the battle is won? What about harass 'fire & flee' tactics, where you have no intention of winning, but you want to maintain squad integrity? Is this not being implemented?

I mean, don't get me wrong, what you posted is great - I'm very satisfied. Go Illwinter.<hr /></blockquote>Hmm, I'm not actually sure on that, actually. That may be a part of the initial tweak, but if it isn't, it may still get added.

Edit: Oh, and it should be noted that this will come as part of a post-release patch. It was too late to get it into the gold Version and have it thoroughly tested without delaying the game.

[ October 11, 2003, 03:40: Message edited by: Psitticine ]