Sacred Troops [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

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st.patrik

October 9th, 2003, 05:18 AM

So it seems that the new 'bless' effects in Dom II can be pretty powerful, which raises a concern (which involves a question) about sacred troops.

The concern is that nations which do not have regular units (i.e. non-commanders) which are sacred are at a bit of a disadvantage, and similarly, nations that have powerful sacred troops are better off than nations which have weaker sacred troops. So for example, it seems like Marignon has a pretty good deal with the new 'bless' effects - they have the Knights of the Chalice (which are already pretty good only with Dom I 'bless' effects), as well as the flagellants, which are very cheap and mass-produceable. In the middle seems to be a nation like Pythium, whose only sacred troops are the battle vestals, or C'Tis, with their sacred serpents. Finally nations like Pangaea, Ulm, R'lyeh, Abysia, and Arco seem to have the worst deal, because they don't have any sacred troops (aside from commanders).

So the question then is: Are all these nations the same as in Dom I specifically with regard to having/not-having sacred troops? or has the 'vanilla' theme of some nations been changed to include some sacred troops if they didn't have them in Dom I? Do some of the other themes of these latter nations have sacred troops, if so, could you tell us a little about them?

By the way, I do realize that 'blessing' works on commanders too, but there are a lot fewer commanders on the battlefield than there are regular troops, so that's why I'm asking about regular troops.

Right now (Dom I) Marignon has a pretty good deal with sacred troops; Vanheim is also doing pretty good with their valkyries and van being blessable. Caelum, Jotunheim, Man and Atlantis each have a single elite troop type which is sacred (Man of course being hampered by only being able to build the wardens in his home province http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). C'Tis & Pythium have slightly less elite sacred troops. Finally the five I mentioned above (Pan, Ulm, Abysia, R'lyeh, and Arco) have no regular sacred troops. Ermor I don't play - and it's a little strange anyways, so I don't know about it.

[ October 09, 2003, 04:21: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Argitoth

October 9th, 2003, 06:17 AM

TIME TO MASS PRODUCE COMMANDERS!!!!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Kristoffer O

October 9th, 2003, 06:29 AM

All nations except Ulm has sacred troops. Ulm has it in a theme. Only Marignon and Vanheim can produce sacred troops outside their home province. There is a limit based on dominion to the number of sacred troops that can be produced in a given province. Thus only flagellants will actually be possible to produce in masses (vanir being rather expensive).

Saber Cherry

October 9th, 2003, 06:43 AM

I've been thinking about sanctifying normal troops into holy troops. The best way to do it, I think, would be to use the Prophet. Similar to the way a commander enters a "training" special site with his troops, and they all slowly gain experience, when the prophet is at a temple, he could gain the "Sanctify" command. Each (intelligent, mortal) unit under the prophet would have a percent chance per turn of becoming sacred.

The rate would be dependant on several factors:

1) The province dominion (+)
2) The prophet's holy level (+)
3) The prophet's experience (+)
4) The number of units under the prophet (-)

The first three would increase the conVersion probability, while the Last factor would decrease the conVersion probability. Ideally, the Last factor would be adjusted so that at first, adding more units under the prophet increases the conVersion rate (successes per turn) linearly. But then decreasing returns begin, so that the rate starts to plateau around 50 units or so, and above 100 units, adding 1 more unit (1% more) will decrease the conVersion probability by 1%, so that the net conVersion rate is static above 100 units. Thus, a prophet sanctifying 50 people would create sacred units almost as fast a prophet sanctifying 500 people, but nearly twice as fast as a prophet sanctifying 25 people. Make sense? I'm trying to model the large classroom / small classroom differences here, and prevent abuse.

At the absolute maximal rate (level 7 prophet, 5 holy, 10 dominion) I would expect a maximum conVersion rate of maybe 5 units per turn, while in normal circumstances (level 2 prophet, 3 holy, 5 dominion) 2 units per turn would be more likely.

This doesn't really solve the problem - but then, it's not really a "problem", just a difference between nations. It does add some flavor to the prophet, though. I would certainly like the "Flagellants" random event to be more common, as well.

Those are my thoughts...

-Cherry

LordArioch

October 9th, 2003, 07:11 AM

Seems like marigon would be a good nation to pick magic for maximal bless effects.

PDF

October 9th, 2003, 11:21 AM

I like SC's idea on "Sanctifying" troops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
It makes sense, it will bring more variety in styles (cause even if you play Ulm you can eventually get a good blessing effect, and a Ulm Blessed Black Knight would be something akin to a M1A2 tank http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) !
In addition I find that Prophets aren't that fun : good priestly nations have it cast Fanaticism, for other it makes a pumped-up commander, but I don't find them acting often "prophetically". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pocus

October 9th, 2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
[QB]I like SC's idea on "Sanctifying" troops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
It makes sense, it will bring more variety in styles (cause even if you play Ulm you can eventually get a good blessing effect, and a Ulm Blessed Black Knight would be something akin to a M1A2 tank http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) !
you mean old and not up to date? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

licker

October 9th, 2003, 04:19 PM

NOOOO!!!!

Lets not start that tedious usenet debate about which country has the best tank... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Oh by the way, it's so *not* GB http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

(waits for the military wonks to wonk that Last statement http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Kristoffer O

October 9th, 2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
I like SC's idea on "Sanctifying" troops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
It makes sense, it will bring more variety in styles (cause even if you play Ulm you can eventually get a good blessing effect, and a Ulm Blessed Black Knight would be something akin to a M1A2 tank http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) !
In addition I find that Prophets aren't that fun : good priestly nations have it cast Fanaticism, for other it makes a pumped-up commander, but I don't find them acting often "prophetically". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif You might call them 'Black Templars' and you might find them in the 'Iron Faith' theme.

st.patrik

October 9th, 2003, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
I've been thinking about sanctifying normal troops into holy troops.

<snip>

Those are my thoughts...

-CherryI really like this idea too, but I think it could be done much more simply that what you were suggesting.

My suggestion would be that any priest could 'sanctify' troops, so long as he's in a province with a temple, and he would only be able to sanctify as many troops as his priestly level. The way I would envisage it would be that when in a province with a temple the priest (or prophet) would have an option to "sanctify troops" much like the Arco Priestess option "heal troops". Then 2, 3, or whatever the priest's level is troops randomly would become sacred. Note this would be instead of preaching, etc., and would be a relatively slow process, unless you had masses and masses of priests, because you're only sanctifying 2 or 3 troops at a time (for most nations).

Note that this *would* perserve the weaknesses and strengths of different nations when it comes to things priestly, because someone like Ulm could make troops sacred only much slower than a nation like Marignon, because he can only make level 2 priests - which is only 2 troops turned sacred per turn per priest (as opposed to 5 or 6 for Marignon). [although you might want to boost the cost of lower-level priests a little to prevent mass sanctifying http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ]

You could limit it to the prophet, but that seems like a too limited conVersion to make any difference at all.

st.patrik

October 9th, 2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PDF:
I like SC's idea on "Sanctifying" troops http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
It makes sense, it will bring more variety in styles (cause even if you play Ulm you can eventually get a good blessing effect, and a Ulm Blessed Black Knight would be something akin to a M1A2 tank http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) !
In addition I find that Prophets aren't that fun : good priestly nations have it cast Fanaticism, for other it makes a pumped-up commander, but I don't find them acting often "prophetically". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif You might call them 'Black Templars' and you might find them in the 'Iron Faith' theme.<hr /></blockquote>Might you indeed? Very interesting�

Saber Cherry

October 9th, 2003, 05:31 PM

Saber Cherry

October 9th, 2003, 05:41 PM

My suggestion would be that any priest could 'sanctify' troops, so long as he's in a province with a temple, and he would only be able to sanctify as many troops as his priestly level. The way I would envisage it would be that when in a province with a temple the priest (or prophet) would have an option to "sanctify troops" much like the Arco Priestess option "heal troops". Then 2, 3, or whatever the priest's level is troops randomly would become sacred. Yeah, that's basically the way I wanted it to work, mechanically. But as for letting any priest sanctify - I think that would be a big problem. I would mass priests and make every unit sacred. As Ulm, for example, you can only produce about 8 units per turn in the capitol... so 4 priests (160 gold, 5 gold upkeep) would be able to sanctify all of them. Unless it was limited to the prophet, I imagine that all units would end up sacred. Also, limiting it to the prophet means that you have to decide between sanctifying with your second-most-important unit, or using it to spread dominion / cast courage or fanatacism / smite / be a supercombatant / annihilate undead, which is a major trade-off.

-Cherry

[ October 09, 2003, 16:42: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

st.patrik

October 9th, 2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My suggestion would be that any priest could 'sanctify' troops, so long as he's in a province with a temple, and he would only be able to sanctify as many troops as his priestly level. The way I would envisage it would be that when in a province with a temple the priest (or prophet) would have an option to "sanctify troops" much like the Arco Priestess option "heal troops". Then 2, 3, or whatever the priest's level is troops randomly would become sacred. Yeah, that's basically the way I wanted it to work, mechanically. But as for letting any priest sanctify - I think that would be a big problem. I would mass priests and make every unit sacred. As Ulm, for example, you can only produce about 8 units per turn in the capitol... so 4 priests (160 gold, 5 gold upkeep) would be able to sanctify all of them. Unless it was limited to the prophet, I imagine that all units would end up sacred. Also, limiting it to the prophet means that you have to decide between sanctifying with your second-most-important unit, or using it to spread dominion / cast courage or fanatacism / smite / be a supercombatant / annihilate undead, which is a major trade-off.

-Cherry<hr /></blockquote>You have a point� but on the other hand I think that limiting it to the prophet might be too much of a limitation. If you made priests a bit more expensive it might solve the problem - that is, you could still make a lot of troops sacred if you wanted to, but it would be a really expensive operation to do so.

Yet another option would be to have it be *half* the priest's level made sacred, rounded up. Then weak priests [lvl 2] would be able to sanctify one unit per turn; medium to powerful priests [lvls 3 & 4] would be able to sanctify two, and very powerful priests would be able to sanctify three. Even with this I think the cost of cheap priests should be increased some, say up to 100 gold. In this case you *could* [as Ulm] sanctify every guy produced, but at the cost of 4 or 5 priests who would cost a lot, and who would prevent you from making other commanders (such as researchers). So there would be the flexibility to go this way, but not without cost in other areas.

Or, on the other hand even just having prophets able to sanctify would be kinda cool. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Pocus

October 9th, 2003, 07:51 PM

I think a better formula would be priest level -2, excepted the prophet.

Psitticine

October 10th, 2003, 03:48 AM

There are a goodly number of sacred troops in Dom II. I'd be worried it would tip things out of balance if any troop could become sacred. What would the point be to Marignon's fragile flagellants then, for example?

I think it would also make god design too much of a blessing-engineering event as well. As it is, I think the balance is right between trying to get the right magic power, the blessings you'd like, and sparing points for a good strong dominion and the fortress type you want. Being able to sanctify troops would tip more importance towards blessing power during god design, and that would devalue other equally-interesting paths.

(Oh, and speaking of the random flagellant event, it happens a lot now. I get more of the little weirdoes than I care for, honestly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Gandalf Parker

October 10th, 2003, 04:13 AM

Maybe we need some more variation in the random troops. How about some migrating Raptors? More knights. Some light cavalry. Maybe crossbows.

Saber Cherry

October 10th, 2003, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
(Oh, and speaking of the random flagellant event, it happens a lot now. I get more of the little weirdoes than I care for, honestly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )You can never have too many freaks that whip themselves bloody, and enjoy it! ...or at least, that's what I tell myself... it makes me think I'm living in a nice neighborhood http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Nagot Gick Fel

October 10th, 2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Maybe we need some more variation in the random troops. How about some migrating Raptors? More knights. Some light cavalry. Maybe crossbows.Unlike flagellants, these aren't driven by faith, but by greed. Raptors, knights, crossbows, all are already there - but as mercs ;-)

Psitticine

October 11th, 2003, 04:30 AM

I've seen Raptors as independents in Dom II, actually. I don't believe they are sacred though . . . I can't quite recall right now, and that particular game is a few weeks gone. It was fun being able to recruit them alongside my normal troops though.

Saber Cherry

October 11th, 2003, 10:26 AM

That's right, I forgot... everyone can recruit sacred amazons. The lizardazons are my favorite, but the ones I hate fighting the most are the nightmare amazons. Blessed medium cavalry that induce fear - no matter how much I out-match them, a lot of my army always runs away... sometimes enough to make me lose... then they run down my fleeing soldiers. Very effective!

[ October 12, 2003, 08:11: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]