Dom I Strategies which WON'T work in Dom II [Archive]

st.patrik

October 15th, 2003, 03:37 PM

Reading Alex Poger's post on usenet about "10 Whammies in Dominions" <http://Groups.google.com/Groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=fda648a3.0203291351.1420401b%40posting.goo gle.com&rnum=1&prev=/Groups%3Fq%3D%252Bdominions%2B%252Bwhammy%26hl%3De n%26lr% 3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dfda648a3.0203291351.1420401b%2540postin g.google.com%26rnum%3D1> I realized that several of these won't work in Dom II, or at least not to the same effect. This made me wonder - what will take their place? (I'm thinking here particularly of #6)

The strategies that won't work (as well) in Dom II are:

2> Instant Magical Movement
someone said on another post that 'gateway' was no longer in the game - or maybe changed from how it was in Dom I. This is the only instant movement spell that allows the whole army to move.

3> Magic Duel
this has been tweaked - maybe it's still dangerous, but probably not as much as it was (when it was bugged).

6> Battlefield Domination Spells
this refers to warding your troops and then calling down the appropriate devastation spell, to which your troops will be completely immune. Of course, most wards don't give total protection any more, so it seems this won't be as rewarding of a strategy as it once was.

7> Storms
now you can shoot in storms, but just with limited range (I think), so while storms will have an effect, it won't be nearly so potent of a strategy as it once was.

So would the beta-testers care to comment on what 'army-killing' strategies they use? Or does anyone else have any ideas?

[ October 15, 2003, 14:42: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Nerfix

October 15th, 2003, 03:41 PM

Supercombatants have also been tuned down BTW...

Faery Trod also let's you to teleport the whole army, but only inside your Dominion.

I would say that powerfull bless efects+Sacred troops may be one of the new "killer aps".

I can already see KotC's with flaming weapons charging towards enemies...

[ October 15, 2003, 14:42: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Daynarr

October 15th, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by st.patrik:
Reading Alex Poger's post on usenet about "10 Whammies in Dominions" <http://Groups.google.com/Groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=fda648a3.0203291351.1420401b%40posting.goo gle.com&rnum=1&prev=/Groups%3Fq%3D%252Bdominions%2B%252Bwhammy%26hl%3De n%26lr% 3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dfda648a3.0203291351.1420401b%2540postin g.google.com%26rnum%3D1> I realized that several of these won't work in Dom II, or at least not to the same effect. This made me wonder - what will take their place? (I'm thinking here particularly of #6)

The strategies that won't work (as well) in Dom II are:

2> Instant Magical Movement
someone said on another post that 'gateway' was no longer in the game - or maybe changed from how it was in Dom I. This is the only instant movement spell that allows the whole army to move.

3> Magic Duel
this has been tweaked - maybe it's still dangerous, but probably not as much as it was (when it was bugged).

6> Battlefield Domination Spells
this refers to warding your troops and then calling down the appropriate devastation spell, to which your troops will be completely immune. Of course, most wards don't give total protection any more, so it seems this won't be as rewarding of a strategy as it once was.

7> Storms
now you can shoot in storms, but just with limited range (I think), so while storms will have an effect, it won't be nearly so potent of a strategy as it once was.

So would the beta-testers care to comment on what 'army-killing' strategies they use? Or does anyone else have any ideas?Maybe you could place here the whole list so I can comment on that?

6 is definitely gone since wards no longer give full protection nor do they affect all your troops and still they cost gems. So that is no-go.

Gandalf Parker

October 15th, 2003, 04:16 PM

I played Man and Pangaea alot with a tactic of finding a weak province, doing a "call" spell to drop units there and take it over, then build up. I had spots all over the map with castle, temple, lab that I could spread out from.

The limitations on travel spells is going to make it really hard to put a temple and lab in far places early in the game. I will have to walk mages and priests to each spot. Im unhappy with this since I didnt see these as being strategys that were massively imbalanced.

I want MORE strategy varients, not less. I dont like being pressed into playing a particular type of game. I dont mind them tweaking things so that any strategy being overused gets cut back, but I dont like them disappearing.

[ October 15, 2003, 15:17: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Pocus

October 15th, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Daynarr:
6 is definitely gone since wards no longer give full protection nor do they affect all your troops and still they cost gems. So that is no-go.to my dismay I read that you got wards affecting the whole battlefield in the Last levels of research. I would have preferred that these spells did not exists.

Pocus

October 15th, 2003, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I played Man and Pangaea alot with a tactic of finding a weak province, doing a "call" spell to drop units there and take it over, then build up. I had spots all over the map with castle, temple, lab that I could spread out from.

The limitations on travel spells is going to make it really hard to put a temple and lab in far places early in the game. I will have to walk mages and priests to each spot. Im unhappy with this since I didnt see these as being strategys that were massively imbalanced.

I want MORE strategy varients, not less. I dont like being pressed into playing a particular type of game. I dont mind them tweaking things so that any strategy being overused gets cut back, but I dont like them disappearing.I can understand your concerns Gandalf, as you play mainly solo, thus limiting some spells is surly detrimental to your pleasure. But I can assure you that limiting gateway to a friendly lab has surely been done for MP balance, as it was a bit too convenient a solution when you were an astral nation (oooh an enemy force, lets crush them with this big astral hammer, aka a gating army).
Restricting a bit the power of astral magic is a good thing, as it perhaps too powerful.

Anyway, I never heard that faery trod was toned down, so you can still preach with dryads, then gate in renforcements.

Kristoffer O

October 15th, 2003, 04:37 PM

Faery Trod is altered. You will no longer wander into your dominion but into forests anywhere.

Pocus

October 15th, 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Faery Trod is altered. You will no longer wander into your dominion but into forests anywhere.cool, a new strategic factor to take into account.

and what about a forest which is at death -3 and void of any life? Does it counts?

Mortifer

October 15th, 2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I played Man and Pangaea alot with a tactic of finding a weak province, doing a "call" spell to drop units there and take it over, then build up. I had spots all over the map with castle, temple, lab that I could spread out from.

The limitations on travel spells is going to make it really hard to put a temple and lab in far places early in the game. I will have to walk mages and priests to each spot. Im unhappy with this since I didnt see these as being strategys that were massively imbalanced.

I want MORE strategy varients, not less. I dont like being pressed into playing a particular type of game. I dont mind them tweaking things so that any strategy being overused gets cut back, but I dont like them disappearing.I can understand your concerns Gandalf, as you play mainly solo, thus limiting some spells is surly detrimental to your pleasure. But I can assure you that limiting gateway to a friendly lab has surely been done for MP balance, as it was a bit too convenient a solution when you were an astral nation (oooh an enemy force, lets crush them with this big astral hammer, aka a gating army).
Restricting a bit the power of astral magic is a good thing, as it perhaps too powerful.

Anyway, I never heard that faery trod was toned down, so you can still preach with dryads, then gate in renforcements.<hr /></blockquote>Now you may understand, that why my poll contained 2 options: singleplayer and multiplayer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Now it is clear I guess.

apoger

October 15th, 2003, 06:19 PM

The ten whammy's were;

1> Super Combatants
2> Instant Magical Movement
3> Magic Duel
4> Ritual Summons
5> Battlefield Summons
6> Battlefield Domination Spells
7> Storms
8> Army BLasting
9> Province BLasting
10> Assassination

1> Super Combatants - Toned down? How?
2> Instant Magical Movement - Only lab to lab now? Not sure if I like this. I would have prefered making it much harder/expensive, but keeping the effect.
3> Magic Duel - Not sure how this has changed, if at all.
4> Ritual Summons - Probably have changed, but I don't know about the changes yet.
5> Battlefield Summons - Word is that battlefield conjuration has been seriously limited. Gem costs for even lesser elementals and double fatigue. Not sure I like this, as it was a mainstay of the game. Will judge when I see the new system in action.
6> Battlefield Domination Spells - With ward rendered non-perfect these combo's are severely weakened.
7> Storms - Delighted to see this taken down a few notches.
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
9> Province BLasting - Same as above
10> Assassination - Not sure if the spells that kill commanders are still around. Will have to see.

In the new enviornment we may see much more play with magic pretenders and bless. Also we may see more done with global spells, since that may be the only way to "reach out" with your power now that you can't get there with troops. This is all conjecture of course... I'll have more to say once the game is released and I have a chance to evaluate the situation.

In the meantime if some beta testers have comments, feel free to give us a clue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nerfix

October 15th, 2003, 06:37 PM

The Damage Shields and stuff like Vine Shield do their damage after the attack has been made.

IMO this may tone down the supercombatants a bit.

And i am more than happy to see army gaters being restricted.

[ October 15, 2003, 17:37: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Saber Cherry

October 15th, 2003, 06:46 PM

...oops, this was old news by the time I posted.

[ October 15, 2003, 17:46: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Gandalf Parker

October 15th, 2003, 06:46 PM

I have no problem with army gaters being restricted. I understand their problems for MP play. And limiting them lab2lab would be good.

Its the personal transports Im concerned with. Can I still "air trapeze" a mage somewhere in order to BUILD a lab?

johan osterman

October 15th, 2003, 06:55 PM

Daynarr

October 15th, 2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by apoger:
The ten whammy's were;

1> Super Combatants
2> Instant Magical Movement
3> Magic Duel
4> Ritual Summons
5> Battlefield Summons
6> Battlefield Domination Spells
7> Storms
8> Army BLasting
9> Province BLasting
10> Assassination

1> Super Combatants - Toned down? How?
2> Instant Magical Movement - Only lab to lab now? Not sure if I like this. I would have prefered making it much harder/expensive, but keeping the effect.
3> Magic Duel - Not sure how this has changed, if at all.
4> Ritual Summons - Probably have changed, but I don't know about the changes yet.
5> Battlefield Summons - Word is that battlefield conjuration has been seriously limited. Gem costs for even lesser elementals and double fatigue. Not sure I like this, as it was a mainstay of the game. Will judge when I see the new system in action.
6> Battlefield Domination Spells - With ward rendered non-perfect these combo's are severely weakened.
7> Storms - Delighted to see this taken down a few notches.
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
9> Province BLasting - Same as above
10> Assassination - Not sure if the spells that kill commanders are still around. Will have to see.

In the new enviornment we may see much more play with magic pretenders and bless. Also we may see more done with global spells, since that may be the only way to "reach out" with your power now that you can't get there with troops. This is all conjecture of course... I'll have more to say once the game is released and I have a chance to evaluate the situation.

In the meantime if some beta testers have comments, feel free to give us a clue. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 1) Super Combatants are practically non-existent, at least not in the same way they used to be in Dom I. There is new combat system that allows units to hit enemy with fire shield before they take damage, so even if fire shield will kill them, they still do damage. Also, any following attack after first one (during same turn of course) reduces protection by 1 and defender's fatigue also increases chances of penetrating armor. In effect, units may gang up on "super combatant" and take him down even if they suffer heavy losses. I've seen this in action and rarely if ever send my combatants in battle without some heavy cover from other troops.

2) Well, I'm not 100% sure about change since I'm not sure how it was, but you can move armies between friendly labs and there is teleport spell that can teleport your mage anywhere. Note that labs have more strategic importance now since they can repair magical units that normally don't heal (like crushers). Of course, you can destroy labs if needed.

3) Not sure about this one since I rarely use it.

4) Again hard to tell what has changed about them since I have little insight on how it was in Dom I, but as far as I can tell there are lots more summons which vary greatly. Also, seasonal spirits have been toned down and since there are seasons in game now, their power depends on time of season they are in. E.g. Summer Lions are weakest during winter and strongest during summer.
There are elemental Kings and Queens that can "Summon Allies" (no cost of gems) and add elementals to your standard armies. They are in limited number for each element and each has his own name, characteristics and special abilities. They even summon different creatures.
Not sure if it was in Dom I but there is Fairy Queen that can be summoned which can heal your troops just like Arco priestess. The rest of the changes you will probably be able to see for yourselves, but in my experience there is no real summon that will dominate all others. All have some purpose.

5) There have been discussions about that already but you are first person I saw that liked previous system better. Its true, now all elemental summons cost gems, but there are high level spells that can summon a larger number of them instantly (at great cost of gems and fatigue of course).

6) Wards have been nerfed, but Pocus is right. There are high-level (8th level) enchantment spells that will protect all your troops. However, that can be thwarted by simply increasing research costs to high or very high, thus making their usage available only in late long games.

7) Yes, storms are toned down but still useful. Of course there is still arrow fend spell that gives 80% protection from missiles (rather hard to get to if high research cost though)

8) Not much experiences with that one but they are probably still useful. I have experienced enemy global spell (Wrath of God I think it was called) but his effect was slight anywhere outside his dominion. I WAS losing troops to it, although rarely. Most likely those spells are domain dependant: stronger caster's dominion = more powerful spell.

9) Not sure what has changed

10) Seeking arrows and flaming arrows are still working but not overpowered since they cost significant number of gems and you can never be really sure of the effect they had (no report if you killed anything). Also, AI will use lots of them and will use Assassins and spies a lot. Protect those commanders!

Nerfix

October 15th, 2003, 07:25 PM

Flaming arrows killing commanders?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

Is there a new commander-bLasting spell?

Pocus

October 15th, 2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
8,9,10: Are more or less the same.<hr /></blockquote>The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.

Saber Cherry

October 15th, 2003, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
8,9,10: Are more or less the same.<hr /></blockquote>The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.<hr /></blockquote>Well... I hope the mod tools are powerful enough to change this. But I'd prefer if it was changed in the vanilla game. Especially 8 and 9... making the effect proportional to dominion strength might be useful... so that you could still target any province, but you couldn't annihilate the enemy's capitol easily and cheaply. Something like... +10 your dominion gives a full-strength spell, +10 enemy dominion gives a zero-strength spell, and anywhere in between gives a linearly interpolated strength.

-Cherry

Mortifer

October 15th, 2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
8,9,10: Are more or less the same.<hr /></blockquote>The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.<hr /></blockquote>Well... I hope the mod tools are powerful enough to change this. But I'd prefer if it was changed in the vanilla game. Especially 8 and 9... making the effect proportional to dominion strength might be useful... so that you could still target any province, but you couldn't annihilate the enemy's capitol easily and cheaply. Something like... +10 your dominion gives a full-strength spell, +10 enemy dominion gives a zero-strength spell, and anywhere in between gives a linearly interpolated strength.

-Cherry<hr /></blockquote>I second this.

apoger

October 15th, 2003, 08:33 PM

>3. In a tie both participants die.

Nice. I like that.
It's still potent though. The nations with mages that have astral-1 skill will have to worry about a beefy astral mage waltzing in and cleaning house.

>there is a new more difficult and expensive astral spell that works like gateway used to, as well as a similar difficult death spell that carries with it a few danger for those using it.

Excellent.
I like that it's still available, just more difficult.

>1) Super Combatants are practically non-existent

I must really wonder if this is true, or if you just haven't been abused yet.

>There is new combat system that allows units to hit enemy with fire shield before they take damage

While this is a good first step, it would barely degrade many super-combatants.

>Also, any following attack after first one (during same turn of course) reduces protection by 1 and defender's fatigue also increases chances of penetrating armor. In effect, units may gang up on "super combatant" and take him down even if they suffer heavy losses.

It's this way in Dom I as well. A well constructed super combatant will still clean house.

The worst offenders were Ice Devils, which were simply too cheap, and were easy to mass produce. Father Illearths and Pazazu also made quite an impact. I'm hoping this all got toned down a few notches.

>2) Well, I'm not 100% sure about change since I'm not sure how it was, but you can move armies between friendly labs and there is teleport spell that can teleport your mage anywhere.

If the personal movement spells are still working, which is what you seem to imply, then players will react by changing strategy to promote mobile super combatants, and mobile mage teams. If you can bring the mages but not the armies, then that's what will happen. Players will abuse mobility at any opportunity. I know I do...

> Also, seasonal spirits have been toned down and since there are seasons in game now, their power depends on time of season they are in.

Sounds interesting, but I'd need to see that in action before comment.

>There are elemental Kings and Queens that can "Summon Allies" (no cost of gems)

That was in Dom I.

>They are in limited number for each element and each has his own name, characteristics and special abilities.

However in Dom I they wern't limited.

>Not sure if it was in Dom I but there is Fairy Queen that can be summoned which can heal your troops just like Arco priestess.

Always a good summons. The heal ability is new, as far as I know.

>5) There have been discussions about that already but you are first person I saw that liked previous system better.

I'm not sure which system I like better.
I am just concerned because this is a major change to game balance.

>6) Wards have been nerfed, but Pocus is right. There are high-level (8th level) enchantment spells that will protect all your troops.

I have no problem with that. In fact I like that the potent spells are available but take more effort.

>10) Seeking arrows and flaming arrows are still working but not overpowered since they cost significant number of gems

I'm more concerned with Mind Hunt and Vengence of the Dead.

[ October 15, 2003, 19:34: Message edited by: apoger ]

Endoperez

October 15th, 2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Well... I hope the mod tools are powerful enough to change this. But I'd prefer if it was changed in the vanilla game. Especially 8 and 9... making the effect proportional to dominion strength might be useful... so that you could still target any province, but you couldn't annihilate the enemy's capitol easily and cheaply. Something like... +10 your dominion gives a full-strength spell, +10 enemy dominion gives a zero-strength spell, and anywhere in between gives a linearly interpolated strength.

-CherryNot a bad idea, but full strength only in +10 for you is insane... They aren't THAT powerful! But, if it only gave full damage in your own dominion, atleast two or three candles, that would be better...
But this does not work with the population destructives. You could only kill people who believe in you. THAT would be mad!

Oh, and did you notice that Crusher-thingie? It seems constructs must be healed in labs now... Can Ulmish smiths heal them too?

Dammit, and I might not be getting the game before christmas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif This is not fair...

Jasper

October 15th, 2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
8,9,10: Are more or less the same.<hr /></blockquote>The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.<hr /></blockquote>I always disliked these as well, as there's no defense against them, but had never seen a game go long enough to really see them in action and so held my tongue.

I just recently have seen Murdering Winter in action, and it's every bit as bad as I suspected it would be. I can think of no viable tactic to take an opponent's castle, short of using only inherently cold resistant troops, or bringing so many I can afford the losses. :-/

Perhaps I'm daft and am missing, but the existance of such spells seems to make mundane units useless once they come out.

Oh, and it's definitely great for Caelum, Jotunheim, and Ermor. Although this may be somewhat mitigated now that there's only partial resistances.

Mortifer

October 15th, 2003, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Jasper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
8,9,10: Are more or less the same.<hr /></blockquote>The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.<hr /></blockquote>I always disliked these as well, as there's no defense against them, but had never seen a game go long enough to really see them in action and so held my tongue.

I just recently have seen Murdering Winter in action, and it's every bit as bad as I suspected it would be. I can think of no viable tactic to take an opponent's castle, short of using only inherently cold resistant troops, or bringing so many I can afford the losses. :-/

Perhaps I'm daft and am missing, but the existance of such spells seems to make mundane units useless once they come out.

Oh, and it's definitely great for Caelum, Jotunheim, and Ermor. Although this may be somewhat mitigated now that there's only partial resistances.<hr /></blockquote>Lads, if the mod tools will be powerful enough and we can disable spells, these problems won't exist. Simply you will have the chance to disallow the disliked spells.

[ October 15, 2003, 20:33: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Aristoteles

October 15th, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jasper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
8> Army BLasting - Stuff like Murdering Winter. Might be more popular than ever now that it's harder to project power.
8,9,10: Are more or less the same.<hr /></blockquote>The great equalizers and I never liked them. Too easy to level a stronger opponent with them. Beside that the most often used by far, Murdering winter, does cold damages, so some nations (guess what, Caelum is in the list too!) are immune to it.<hr /></blockquote>I always disliked these as well, as there's no defense against them, but had never seen a game go long enough to really see them in action and so held my tongue.

I just recently have seen Murdering Winter in action, and it's every bit as bad as I suspected it would be. I can think of no viable tactic to take an opponent's castle, short of using only inherently cold resistant troops, or bringing so many I can afford the losses. :-/

Perhaps I'm daft and am missing, but the existance of such spells seems to make mundane units useless once they come out.

Oh, and it's definitely great for Caelum, Jotunheim, and Ermor. Although this may be somewhat mitigated now that there's only partial resistances.<hr /></blockquote>Lads, if the mod tools will be powerful enough and we can disable spells, these problems won't exist. Simply you will have the chance to disallow the disliked spells.<hr /></blockquote>IF...but hopefully it will have the spell disabling part.

johan osterman

October 15th, 2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Jasper:
Oh, and it's definitely great for Caelum, Jotunheim, and Ermor. Although this may be somewhat mitigated now that there's only partial resistances.There are not only partial resistances, just that the spells affecting the entire battlefield only offer partial resistance. As long as you are not besieging there are domes, but when you siege this is not an option. One way to deal with this is to take out the opposing mage casting the murdering winter. After he has used murdering winter you can target him with veangeance of the dead for example.

Jasper

October 15th, 2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
Lads, if the mod tools will be powerful enough and we can disable spells, these problems won't exist. Simply you will have the chance to disallow the disliked spells.[/QB]I typically play multiplayer, and modding individual aspects that don't fit my taste isn't really a viable option.

Besides, I don't have time to do the balancing necessary to make a good mod of Dominions.

Jasper

October 15th, 2003, 09:54 PM

Pocus

October 15th, 2003, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jasper:
Oh, and it's definitely great for Caelum, Jotunheim, and Ermor. Although this may be somewhat mitigated now that there's only partial resistances.There are not only partial resistances, just that the spells affecting the entire battlefield only offer partial resistance. As long as you are not besieging there are domes, but when you siege this is not an option. One way to deal with this is to take out the opposing mage casting the murdering winter. After he has used murdering winter you can target him with veangeance of the dead for example.<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps I suffered traumatic experience with murdering winter (having been hammered by an uber caelum with this spell during 25 turns), but here is my opinion :

1. in practice you only dome provinces that you think you can hold. Perhaps 2 or 3 provinces at most will be domed. Aside that, I can assure you that you will get bLasted most often than not, either in your empire (in the 90% remaining provinces not domed), or in the provinces of your enemy.

2. the mage casting the spell must be found. There is no easy mean to do that, as generally he wont stand in the capitol (the player is not that stupid). And even if you find it, you can bet that there is some domes up (3 or more from my experience).

To end the story I started, the Caelian mage was never killed, as he was not reachable by any mean. The game ended when Caelum started to stall heavily (we dispatched his ally) and after our own ally Abysia started to vitrify his armies with Flames from the sky (and everybody else was sending leprosy, the third tactical nuke of the family)

I think that more than half of all units killed in the game were done by these 2 spells (MW and FFTS). When the game ended, most of the players were dispirited by this fact (or is all?), by the no brainer in using these spells. Even the Caelian player recognized that he used MW with distate, so powerful they were. And no, the game was not a big one, there was only 7 players, but it dragged as nobody wanted to concede (which is a good thing).

Murdering winter is level 7, that's easily reachable. With some water income, you can have a big reserve when you can cast it. Sure, you wont see many of these spells cast in small to medium games, or games ending at turn 50, but otherwise they are really detrimental to the gameplay (in the experience of our group).

Jasper

October 16th, 2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
Murdering winter is level 7, that's easily reachable. With some water income, you can have a big reserve when you can cast it. Sure, you wont see many of these spells cast in small to medium games, or games ending at turn 50, but otherwise they are really detrimental to the gameplay (in the experience of our group).Even worse, this strategy synergizes with the underpriced Ice Devils, which are immune to the effects, and generate water gems to pay for casting Murdering Winter.

This is a very popular strategy and effective strategy; 3 out of 6 players in my current game seem to use it!

apoger

October 16th, 2003, 01:37 AM

>Even worse, this strategy synergizes with the underpriced Ice Devils, which are immune to the effects, and generate water gems to pay for casting Murdering Winter.

I have heard that blood hunting has been altered somewhat, and that the large blood summons will be handled differently in Dom II.

Perhaps some of the testers could enlighten us about the way it works now.

Pocus

October 16th, 2003, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Jasper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
Murdering winter is level 7, that's easily reachable. With some water income, you can have a big reserve when you can cast it. Sure, you wont see many of these spells cast in small to medium games, or games ending at turn 50, but otherwise they are really detrimental to the gameplay (in the experience of our group).Even worse, this strategy synergizes with the underpriced Ice Devils, which are immune to the effects, and generate water gems to pay for casting Murdering Winter.

This is a very popular strategy and effective strategy; 3 out of 6 players in my current game seem to use it!<hr /></blockquote>the demons&devils commanders are now limited in number in doms II (as the elemental kings and queens), so at least this abuse will be fixed. It wont change much how much murdering winter can be used anyway (the Caelian player I mention never recruited ice devils, but still managed to cast something like 10 MW - each time you gather a sizable force to counter him, bLast, you were back to stone age, very frustrating).

I wonder who really appreciate these spells, (gameplay wise not power wise). Alex Poger gave his opinion, but I would like to hear some MP vets like Wendigo, YWL, Sunray, etc.

Endoperez

October 16th, 2003, 08:42 AM

I have a question about the greater wards, those that take longer to research and which offer full protection. Do they give full protection, or something like 90% resistance, which added to the normal ward would offer immunity?
And how powerful wizard do you need for these spells? Atleast both need gems.

Just came to my mind, and would like to check this out.

Zerger

October 16th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Jasper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mortifer:
Lads, if the mod tools will be powerful enough and we can disable spells, these problems won't exist. Simply you will have the chance to disallow the disliked spells.I typically play multiplayer, and modding individual aspects that don't fit my taste isn't really a viable option.

Besides, I don't have time to do the balancing necessary to make a good mod of Dominions.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Well I will play singleplayer, and you bet that I will make a mod without those uber, unbalanced spells, if disabling spells will be possible. [It must be!]

Pocus

October 16th, 2003, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Zerger:
Well I will play singleplayer, and you bet that I will make a mod without those uber, unbalanced spells, if disabling spells will be possible. [It must beit is anyway better to reach a consensus about these spells. Something like 40 to 50% of the people here (according to two polls) play MP. It would be far better to have a common set of rules accepted in this case.

In solo you will encounter the problem too with most of the scenarios, if modding tools are allowed. The scenario author will have surely modded some particular aspects of doms, to better fit the setting of the map. Thus you will have to play with his mod, not your.

Nagot Gick Fel

October 16th, 2003, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
it is anyway better to reach a consensus about these spells.Although I too think these spells are a bit too potent for my comfort, in my own games MW/FFTS abuse did little to alter the balance of power, as when a side starts using them the opposition isn't long to reply with weapons of the same caliber. At the very least it seems everyone is Leprosy-capable at some point.

On the contrary I've sometimes seen an overwhelmingly dominant faction being leveled to reasonable size by a coalition of weaker, but more numerous nations (with a bigger gem income) - and I'd say that's a rather good thing.

In any case, since game balance is really only an issue in MP, the players can always vote to ban these rituals or restrict their use.

Re: the "dispatch the offending mage with VOTD" - in my experience the offender is more often than not an Ice Devil, thus undead, thus unaffected by VOTD.

Patrik

October 16th, 2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by apoger:

I have heard that blood hunting has been altered somewhat, and that the large blood summons will be handled differently in Dom II.

Perhaps some of the testers could enlighten us about the way it works now.[/QB]I brought this subject up a few months ago in the newsgroup, but it seems I have to repeat a few things, mainly concerning blood hunting/blood summonings.

Blood hunting has been nerfed by not adding any bonuses for the dousing rods to commanders without skill in blood. Even for nations with cheap blood mages (Mictlan), it makes hunting more expensive.

There are six different Ice Devils, 55 slaves apiece. They are more cold dependent (+/- 2 per temperature change) and don't automatically generate gems anymore.

IIRC, there are five Arch Devils, four Heliophages and one Father Illearth. The Pazuzu (sp?) is now one of the Demon Lords (lvl 9).

As for army-bLasting spells, I personally try to counter them by switching to raiding warfare (with small forces) until I can build a large enough resistant army. With the introduction of seasons in DomII, I hope they will have enough of an impact to make it worthwile to campaign in the summer season against cold enemies, and vice versa against hot ones. I am not sure how much the seasons will affect the army-bLasting spells though.

Wendigo

October 16th, 2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Jasper:
This is a very popular strategy and effective strategy; 3 out of 6 players in my current game seem to use it![/QB]Err, just 2 now, I already killed the 3rd one.

I am the one who just bLasted Jasper's sieging force with a MW, (feel the wrath of the true God you infidel!), so, by references & seeing as Pocus also asked for my opinion, here it goes:

I have mixed feelings regarding the army bLasters, I recon they are both powerful & flexible due to their n� of hits being % based on the size of the targetted army & the abilty to strike from afar, I do however disagree with the point about them being particularly unbalanced when compared to the many other cost-effective aspects/combos/etc of the game. They are just another tool, and they are counterable.

In Jasper's case he spent like 200 or so waters empowering his Nataraja in water & summoning a couple Sea Kings with their retinues, those gems could have been spent in protection gear for his mages & cold resistant troops for example, which might -or not- have been a better option...everything has a trade-off in this game: he made his choice (in a game with a 3 cold Caelum, a 3! cold Jotunheim & a 1 cold Vanheim), I spotted his weak point & took advantage of it. In his discharge it must be said that he's been playing a brilliant game until present and he still has chances to win seeing as I am outsized by my 2 enemies...I only really have a broader experience in endgame warfare to face them, and that might not be enough after all.

FFS comes very late in the game. Leprosy has a slow effect & the diseasing can be ignored by some & cured by others. Murdering winter is weather dependant. The bLasters have their counters & balancing points: resistances, hit points, domes, weather, cures, killing the caster....

One particular point in favour of the army bLasters is that they are one of the few options vs the armies that consist in an horde of mages supported by relief & communion. How should a player that is outclassed in these points face that kind of army otherwise?

By limiting MW we would be affecting the balance between the nations strongly, and downing even more a magic field (water), that is considered by many one of the weakest. IN Dom I IMO Air rules the mid game, while Astral & Blood rule the end game, certainly not Water.
While Caelum could certainly take a little balancing this would be the first time I heard that Jotunheim is too powerful...this is a nation with no proficiency in 3 out of 4 elemental magics, outclassed in Astral by the big Astral nations regarding its combat mages & with huge survival needs.

While we are at this, I will add that I disagree with Alex' list of whammies. While all those are certainly strong tactics, most of them are countereable &, although powerful in the right setting, you can both win without most of them & you can fight them.

If I had to name the most decisive/unbalancing factors of the game in Dom I MP I would name the following:

1.- Diplomacy
Yes, diplomacy!. Nothing more fustrating than being ganged by 6 opponents. While diplomacy can sometimes work in favour of a better game by giving the big guy a challenge it most often than not is used as a way to get an easy, unchallenged win. Diplomacy is the most powerful weapon in the game.

I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada: Either you play this way or you are handicapped, because all the MP games I have played have either been with Normal or Rich settings, and this is the way to go in such games.

Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on.
This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The above 4 are my 'whamies', and IMO you need to use at least 2-3 of them in a vet game or you will see them used vs you & lose. I consider army bLasters secondary when compared to the above four.

--editted grammar

[ October 16, 2003, 11:22: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

Patrik

October 16th, 2003, 12:56 PM

1.- Diplomacy
Yes, diplomacy!. Nothing more fustrating than being ganged by 6 opponents. While diplomacy can sometimes work in favour of a better game by giving the big guy a challenge it most often than not is used as a way to get an easy, unchallenged win. Diplomacy is the most powerful weapon in the game.

I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada: Either you play this way or you are handicapped, because all the MP games I have played have either been with Normal or Rich settings, and this is the way to go in such games.

Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on.
This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The above 4 are my 'whamies', and IMO you need to use at least 2-3 of them in a vet game or you will see them used vs you & lose. I consider army bLasters secondary when compared to the above four.

--editted grammar[/QB][/QUOTE]

Patrik

October 16th, 2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Patrik:
Summoners: Battlefield summons (for example lesser elementals and Howl) now cost gems. This will address the relief/summoning combo.
this will adress the power of Howl, but wont change anything about relief, as Wendigo pointed it. With 3 druids, you basically suppress the fatigues incurred by your mages during the 5 first rounds. Dont appears very balanced too me, for a 0 gem spell.<hr /></blockquote>Wendigo said
Originally posted by Wendigo:
4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief.

Relief combined with gemfree summonings was truly abusive, when those are gone relief will still be powerful, but less so. Maybe relief should be area restricted, but IMHO Nature magic needs this spell to be competitive.

Saber Cherry

October 16th, 2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
The order scale has been rescaled to since you Last participated in a beta MP, it is 7% per step now. The growth and production give a 2% income bonus per step.Why would you spend 120 points on production for a 6% increase in income? Does it have some other effect?

johan osterman

October 16th, 2003, 05:51 PM

10% resource bonus per step from the production scale. Growth and supplies increase from the growth scale.

[ October 16, 2003, 16:52: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

apoger

October 16th, 2003, 06:04 PM

>While we are at this, I will add that I disagree with Alex' list of whammies. While all those are certainly strong tactics, most of them are countereable &, although powerful in the right setting, you can both win without most of them & you can fight them.

I (nor anyone else, AFAIK) ever said that they were uncounterable. You are reading more into what was said than was there.

>1.- Diplomacy

I wouldn't disagree that diplomacy is incredibly potent.

>I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

This I disagree with this strongly.
In any conflict involving multiple nations, diplomacy is critical to success. It's an essential facet of strategy and has every reason to be modeled into a wargame. Particularly one as complex as Dominions.

I understand that some players like the idea of anomymous power-gaming where there is limited interaction. I have no issue with that. Such players would always have the option of turning dippy off or playing in a low interaction game. Just because some players like this however, is no reason to spite those that do like dippy.

I submit that the best path is to give the players as many options as possible, and let them pick and choose what type of game they wish to participate in.

>2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada:

>Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

While I'd like to see some changes to this as well, I have concerns that the current system (Dom II) that limits the "money" scales will have the opposite effect, making gold more scarce will limit mages and might inspire much more military and early game super combatants. I dearly hope I'm wrong.

>3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on. This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

>This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

Again, less money and more magic scale will inspire more super pretenders. Lessening the effect of the shields is only a small check on their potency.

I'll be better able to comment once I see the new game.

>4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The reason this isn't a huge issue is that by the time you have giant armies of mages and all the research for such combo's, we are also entering the "army bLasting" phase of the game. The army bLasters rip up stacks of mages.

Furthermore, super combatants were always much more in evidence than mage stacks. The mage stacks were one of the few ways to counter super combatants. Hence the lack of complaints.

Indeed, if Dom II has restrictions on conjuration (seems that way), then we will just see a movement towards evocation/relief instead.

This said, much of this is conjecture since I haven't seen the new system in action. I think once we all get the new game and spend some time with it, we will all be better qualified to judge the new balance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Saber Cherry

October 16th, 2003, 06:54 PM

Oh, I have another favorite DomI strategy that won't work in DomII!

"Getting the demo, and never bothering to get the full Version, because the demo basically is the full Version."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Nerfix

October 16th, 2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Oh, I have another favorite DomI strategy that won't work in DomII!

"Getting the demo, and never bothering to get the full Version, because the demo basically is the full Version."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Yup.
Dom II demo is like tigthened social security.

Ooops, culture specific humor...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Wendigo

October 16th, 2003, 07:09 PM

Me:
>> diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

Alex:
>This I disagree with this strongly.

No surprise here, we have held opposing views on this topic before in the newsgroup.

IIRC you campaigned for:
- Right of passage.
To which I answered same as here: it would only make gangfests easier.

- Exchange of commanders/mages/troops.
To which I said that allowing such would only dilute the differences between nations and result in a duller game, as nations would not have to find ways to compensate for their weaknesses because they could do so easily via diplomacy.

I haven't however seen any argument to counter the above ones, as the one that follows doesn't hold.

>In any conflict involving multiple nations, diplomacy is critical to success. It's an essential facet of strategy and has every reason to be modeled into a wargame. Particularly one as complex as Dominions.

This is a false analogy with RL. In RL it is possible for a nation to 'win' by staying out of trouble or either achieve a mutual gain by submitting to a bigger power. Obviously, this has no place in a game where 'there can be only one ruling God' by definition. You can say that you personally would like to have more diplomacy options in this game, but there's definitely no need for those as you seem to imply in your argument, the game is not a simulation of our world.

I do not oppose cooperative gameplay per se, but the limits of it must definitely be stated beforehand when the game is launched (looks like we at least agree on this), otherwise it only results in fustration as players develop different expectatives of what is, or not, allowed in a game that requires a heavy time investment.

And I definitely do not see any need to increase the power of what is already the most powerful MP weapon with further coding favoring its use (or abuse), for me this would detract from the game, by making it duller and less challenging (as in, your actions & gaming have a much lower impact on the result of the game the more powerful diplomacy is, as taken to the extreme what counts is how many nations you can get under the umbrella of your alliance vs that of your enemy).

I would rather have the devs spend their time in stuff that improved my enjoyment (balancing, micromanagement reductions...) or at least were neutral to it (Diplomacy in SP regarding the AI...).

[ October 16, 2003, 18:12: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

st.patrik

October 16th, 2003, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Oh, I have another favorite DomI strategy that won't work in DomII!

"Getting the demo, and never bothering to get the full Version, because the demo basically is the full Version."

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Saber - you are funny! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

apoger

October 16th, 2003, 08:21 PM

>No surprise here, we have held opposing views on this topic before in the newsgroup.

Yes, however my view is that both types of players should be able to get what they want. You seem to want to limit everyone to your style of play.

>- Right of passage.
>To which I answered same as here: it would only make gangfests easier.

Since gateway has been crippled in Dom II, I think that offering some method to cross non-enemy territory is apporpriate.

>- Exchange of commanders/mages/troops.

I never asked for this, and don't like the idea.

>In any conflict involving multiple nations, diplomacy is critical to success. It's an essential facet of strategy and has every reason to be modeled into a wargame. Particularly one as complex as Dominions.

>This is a false analogy with RL.

While real life and games are certainly different, this is a multi-nation game of conflict. I honestly don't see how anyone can argue that dippy and cooperation aren't compatible with such a theme.

Again, I'm not saying that YOU must play dipplomatically, nor that dipplomacy should be forced on anyone. What I'm saying is that it's a very important facet to many players and as such should be included as an option for those that want it.

>I do not oppose cooperative gameplay per se, but the limits of it must definitely be stated beforehand when the game is launched (looks like we at least agree on this), otherwise it only results in fustration as players develop different expectatives of what is, or not, allowed in a game that requires a heavy time investment.

I agree whole-heartedly.
Don't you think having the dippy functionality inside the game would help define such limits? I submit that the lack of structured dippy is precisely what leads to the issue you just brought up!

>And I definitely do not see any need to increase the power of what is already the most powerful MP weapon with further coding favoring its use (or abuse), for me this would detract from the game, by making it duller and less challenging

You don't like dippy. Got it.
Don't use it. Stick to games where all players agree to the same. Why force this view on others?

>I would rather have the devs spend their time in stuff that improved my enjoyment

That pretty much says it all.
What about *my* enjoyment? Or the enjoyment of *other* players? The whole idea here is to have a discussion about what many players want. If there is a good deal of support for dippy (as seems the case) then why should IW program for your enjoyment at the expense of others? I don't mean to be rude, but this comes across as a rather selfish point of view.

This is obviously someting that many players care about passionately. As such I see no reason why IW shouldn't implement options for everyone, so we can all play the game we want.

Mortifer

October 16th, 2003, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by apoger:
>>I would rather have the devs spend their time in stuff that improved my enjoyment

That pretty much says it all.
What about *my* enjoyment? Or the enjoyment of *other* players? The whole idea here is to have a discussion about what many players want. How true, that is why were making polls. We know that most of the players are preferring SP, and that lot of players want SP diplomacy.
Period.

[ October 16, 2003, 19:55: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Wendigo

October 16th, 2003, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by apoger:
Yes, however my view is that both types of players should be able to get what they want. You seem to want to limit everyone to your style of play.
Definitely wrong. I do not want to define how others play or enjoy the game. If they enjoy a different set of rules let them play their way via house rules. What I oppose is the hard-coding of something that goes against the very definition of the game. If you want allied victory you can have it via house rules, why do you need any coding to support something which doesn't fit with the world? Do you need an official clap in the back?

>- Right of passage.
>To which I answered same as here: it would only make gangfests easier.

Since gateway has been crippled in Dom II, I think that offering some method to cross non-enemy territory is apporpriate.
So you want totally _free_ passage through enemy lands to replace gateway?. Colour me unconvinced.

>- Exchange of commanders/mages/troops.

I never asked for this, and don't like the idea.
Sorry, it seems after a Google search that my recollection of this was inaccurate, you campaigned for Allied victory instead. My apologies.

>This is a false analogy with RL.

While real life and games are certainly different, this is a multi-nation game of conflict. I honestly don't see how anyone can argue that dippy and cooperation aren't compatible with such a theme.
Because in the Dominions world in the end there canbe only one. You can cooperate up to a point, when your ally will become your enemy. While you can play differently if you feel like it or in a scenario it would make no sense for IW to code such possibility which would not fit the story of the world as defined in the colourful background. In your house games, you are king.

Again, I'm not saying that YOU must play dipplomatically, nor that dipplomacy should be forced on anyone. What I'm saying is that it's a very important facet to many players and as such should be included as an option for those that want it.
You can play diplomatically: You can forward gems, coin, slaves & items, and you can trade information & coordinate attacks. It sounds like quite a lot to me.

That pretty much says it all.
What about *my* enjoyment? Or the enjoyment of *other* players? The whole idea here is to have a discussion about what many players want. If there is a good deal of support for dippy (as seems the case) then why should IW program for your enjoyment at the expense of others? I don't mean to be rude, but this comes across as a rather selfish point of view.
Why so? are you not capable of defending your point of view & what you like? do you expect me to do it for you in addition to defending mine?

I will tell you a secret: I will defend what I like & you can defend what you like, that way we can have...a debate. If we are to 'have a discussion about what players want' why do you label as selfish the opinions that disagree with yours?

Targeting the poster when you run out of arguments to target the post?

October 16th, 2003, 10:43 PM

House rules are impossible for SP, unless we're refering to ironman rules, therefore the only option is to have them hardcoded. OTOH, they are quite possible to ignore in MP. The option has to exist to be ignored/switched off, so which scenario happens to take more players into account?

ywl

October 16th, 2003, 11:23 PM

I won't really called myself a vet in MP - just 2 to 3 games. I might even occassionally sound like a know-it-all of the system but I'm not really a very skillful player.

But since Pocus asked...

I think most of Alex's whammies are fine in terms of game balance. It might catch people off-guard. But to me, they're the fun parts of the game - expect the unexpected and prepare for different situations. Otherwise, I worry that the end game will become nothing more than a race to enmasse the largest army of HIs.

1) Super-Combatants. Except for Ice Devils, I think that most super-combatants are fine. To have a good super-combatants, you usually need to invest at least 50 gems and have at least level 3 in two magic paths (earth, etc). Morever, most of these supercombatants can be killed by "Soul Slay", "Opposition", "Disintegration" et al. Or a moderate number of ethereatl beings (e.g., 10 ghosts). The ability of such an expensive commander to kill 100+ cheap heavy infantries is a reasonable thing (50 gems ~= 500 golds ~= cost of 40 HIs).

Blood summons are painful in most game but the problem is more because of the easy availability of Blood Slaves.

Ice-Devils at the 4th level is too much of a bargain. Something has been done already and I'll need to see how it turns out. I think the other Blood Summons are priced reasonably.

2) Teleport and Gateway. Not sure.

3) Magic Duel. It's fine in its current form. Or Astral would be too powerful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . The only nations severly hurt by MD is Marignon. But to me, Marignon's mages are powerful enough in its current form: Astral Fire, Flame Eruption (both are only level 6!), Body Ethereal, Luck. Astral lets you boast up your magic level easily ("Light of the Northern Sky" and "Power of the Sphere"). And you can also use the Communions circle to increase the magic power of your mages. With so many variable, I don't really that MD is such a safe tactics even for Pythium.

4) Ritual Summon... what does it mean? Summoning magical creatures are what make the game fun - right?

5) Battlefield Summon. Not sure - I haven't seen enough. To me, it is just some tricks that make the mages worth their gold... If Storm is tuned down and the archers can get to the mages, it shouldn't be that dominant any more. Moreover, even in the current system, there are other spells to kill the mages hid in the back, e.g. "Howl", "Earthquake", "Rain of Stone", "Acid Rain".

6) Battlefield spells. Does it means "Wrathful Sky" and others? I find most of them fine. "Wrathful Sky" is better raised to Air 4 or 5. "Astral Tempest" should give more damage to make it worthwile. But otherwise, to me, these spells are just something to be factored in during a battle. Without them, Dominions will lose a lot of the richness of tactics and strategies.

7) Storms. I agree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . The current modifications are in the right direction. I'll need to play Dom II to see whether they've gone far enough (or too far).

8) Army BLasting Spells... I don't have enough experience but are they really such a big deal? It takes 30 gems to cast MW... It's quite an expensive ritual. FftS is at Level 9. Leprosy is cheap and probably should be a higher cost (15 gems?) but it's very slow acting. For common fodder units - you shouldn't care. For important mages, it's easy enough to give them ice-rings, fire-rings or the poison-rings.

9) Province BLasting spells. An useful and fun part of the game. I don't see any problem other than the sinking feeling while I'm the one receiving them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

10) Assassination. I haven't seen anybody using them with effect more than mere annoyance. In theory, you can equip some commanders to be super-assasain but it'll be expensive to lose them. And you can never sure whether you'll hit a good target - easily countered with a bunch of cheap scouts or monks.

ywl

October 16th, 2003, 11:41 PM

Some more thoughts on army bLasting spell.

In terms of game-play, "Vengeance of the Dead" seems to be a good way to counter army bLasting - if we can make them good even for undeads.

If we still found army bLasting still too annoying, we can introduce a few new spells in other magic paths to make mass murderers more vulnerable. Some examples:

"Curse of the Deads", a spell to curse a commander with a large body-count remotely.

"Mark of Kurgi", a spell to horror-mark a mass murderer from a distance - for later Horror attack.

"Smite of Justice", a thunderbolt to strike whoever kill too many.

"Scythe of Conscience", renders whoever kill too many feeblemind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ?

Just some random thoughts.

apoger

October 17th, 2003, 12:10 AM

>1) Super-Combatants. Except for Ice Devils, I think that most super-combatants are fine.

Said like a person that never had a Sphinx dropped on their capital on turn 7. The abuse can get a lot worse than the loss of a 100 HI.

I'm glad to hear that Dom II may have worked towards limiting this. I hope to see the new game balance in action during the upcomming months. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

>Blood summons are painful in most game but the problem is more because of the easy availability of Blood Slaves.

I'm always concerned when players have control of a resource that ramps up, such as blood slaves. I hope Dom II really has addressed this.

>3) Magic Duel. It's fine in its current form. Or Astral would be too powerful . The only nations severly hurt by MD is Marignon.

C'tis and Jotunheim also often field mages that have astral-1. Even the astral-2 mages are dangerously behind the astral-3 nations. The tricks that can be done to pump astral are available to everyone. The astral-3 nations are always ahead of the curve on this, and as such it makes life hard on the lesser astral nations.

It's something you must always consider when playing with astral magic.

>4) Ritual Summon... what does it mean?

This is a reference to players showing up with large numbers of summons such as Summer Lions. It can ruin someones day for sure.

>5) Battlefield Summon. Not sure - I haven't seen enough.

This shouldn't be a big issue in Dom II (I hope).
In Dom I, Groups of mages could often take down conventional armies at no loss.

Massive summons of lesser air elementals was single handedly corrupting the game, IMHO.

>6) Battlefield spells. Does it means "Wrathful Sky" and others?

Combo's like thunder ward/wrathful skies, or poison ward/foul vapors. This sort of spell combo could often dissolve entire armies. The way IW has altered wards in Dom II will probably help lessen the frequency we see this stuff.

>8) Army BLasting Spells... I don't have enough experience but are they really such a big deal? It takes 30 gems to cast MW... It's quite an expensive ritual.

Not too expensive by the time it's in play. Much less "expensive" than allowing the 600 troop army to stroll into your area. If your enemy has a stack of mages in there, knocking out 20-40% isn't shabby. You can't protect them all...

Once MW and FFTS start getting thrown about, conventional armies with mages become much less important. You must start to rely on super combatants and larger summoned creatures. I'm not a big fan of this kind of endgame. I much prefer it when things resolve before this much magic becomes available.

>9) Province BLasting spells. An useful and fun part of the game. I don't see any problem other than the sinking feeling while I'm the one receiving them .

I never said it was a "problem" as in bad for Dominions. It's a "problem" in-game for the player who is getting slammed by repeated spells.

>10) Assassination. I haven't seen anybody using them with effect more than mere annoyance.

I was talking more about assassination spells than assassin characters.

If you have never been the victim of a serious Arco 'mind hunt' festival then count yourself lucky! (arco can use their priestesses to undo afflictions from bad results)

I can't wait to see what goodness Dom II will bring to the table. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

apoger

October 17th, 2003, 12:16 AM

>In terms of game-play, "Vengeance of the Dead" seems to be a good way to counter army bLasting - if we can make them good even for undeads.

Not as easy as you are thinking...
A> How does the enemy know where I am keeping my bLaster mage?
B> Domes. The bLaster mage is always hidden under domes.

It's often difficult to counter.

Patrik

October 17th, 2003, 01:01 AM

Oops! That went away a little bit to fast...

Originally posted by Wendigo:

1.- Diplomacy
Yes, diplomacy!. Nothing more fustrating than being ganged by 6 opponents. While diplomacy can sometimes work in favour of a better game by giving the big guy a challenge it most often than not is used as a way to get an easy, unchallenged win. Diplomacy is the most powerful weapon in the game.

I cringe when I see demands of an increase of this in MP games with stuff like 'right of passage', the Last thing we need is to make these gangfest easier. No problem with an increase of diplomacy options regarding the AI in SP, but diplomacy is strong enough as it is in MP.

2.- The full economy+combat pretender with no magic+full taxing/patrolling triada: Either you play this way or you are handicapped, because all the MP games I have played have either been with Normal or Rich settings, and this is the way to go in such games.

Hopefully this is going to change in Dom II, and we will see funnier designs with more magic & less economy.

3.- Supercombatants: Wyrms & Nataraja types early on, IDs, Pazuzus, FIs and other breeds later on.
This is the way to go for victories with no cost, they are an all or nothing bet, but when they win they win big.

This is also being tonned down a bit for Dom II, which is good. I like playing with these guys, it's funny to equip them & tailor them to the opposition, but they are too strong as the game stands.

4.- The army of summoners backed up with relief. I am surprised this doesn't get complained about more...field 20 mages, have them cast spells as if they were 60 instead, what's balanced about this?

The above 4 are my 'whamies', and IMO you need to use at least 2-3 of them in a vet game or you will see them used vs you & lose. I consider army bLasters secondary when compared to the above four.

--editted grammar[/QB]Excellent post! Some comments on the Wendigo's whammies:

Economy: Only the order scale affects income with 5% per step (just forget the old system!) Growth and production scales no longer affect income. High taxes kill population (fast!!). Negative order/prod/growth scales are now quite viable and allow many more points for pretender design. Most betatesters have used expensive/very expensive pretenders compared to DomI.

Summoners: Battlefield summons (for example lesser elementals and Howl) now cost gems. This will address the relief/summoning combo.

I fully agree with you concerning diplomacy. No doubt the strongest weapon - very frustrating if you don't have the time to indulge in it. I guess specific setups/rules like HEXBlitz can be the solution.

Supercombatants have been altered with increased costs, limited availability and changes in the damage shields etc. Early pretender supercombatants might still be an issue, on the other hand the bless effects can give you really potent counter troops (Regenerating berserking giants, Spider knights with flaming weapons, prot 29 black knigths etc).

johan osterman

October 17th, 2003, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by Patrik:
Excellent post! Some comments on the Wendigo's whammies:

Economy: Only the order scale affects income with 5% per step (just forget the old system!) Growth and production scales no longer affect income. High taxes kill population (fast!!). Negative order/prod/growth scales are now quite viable and allow many more points for pretender design. Most betatesters have used expensive/very expensive pretenders compared to DomI.
Patrik
The order scale has been rescaled to since you Last participated in a beta MP, it is 7% per step now. The growth and production give a 2% income bonus per step.

Particle

October 17th, 2003, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Zerger:
Well I will play singleplayer, and you bet that I will make a mod without those uber, unbalanced spells, if disabling spells will be possible. [It must beit is anyway better to reach a consensus about these spells. Something like 40 to 50% of the people here (according to two polls) play MP. It would be far better to have a common set of rules accepted in this case.

In solo you will encounter the problem too with most of the scenarios, if modding tools are allowed. The scenario author will have surely modded some particular aspects of doms, to better fit the setting of the map. Thus you will have to play with his mod, not your.<hr /></blockquote>Not really. Check out my reply in the diplomacy thread. Your own poll will show you Pocus, that the majority of the fans here will buy the game, because of the singleplayer.

Pocus

October 17th, 2003, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Particle:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
it is anyway better to reach a consensus about these spells. Something like 40 to 50% of the people here (according to two polls) play MP. It would be far better to have a common set of rules accepted in this case.
Not really. Check out my reply in the diplomacy thread. Your own poll will show you Pocus, that the majority of the fans here will buy the game, because of the singleplayer.<hr /></blockquote>anyway, game balance issues should be discussed. Even if more than 75% of players would only play solo, I suppose they prefer a balanced game.

Saber Cherry

October 17th, 2003, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by apoger:
Army BLasting Spells... I don't have enough experience but are they really such a big deal? It takes 30 gems to cast MW... It's quite an expensive ritual.

Not too expensive by the time it's in play. Much less "expensive" than allowing the 600 troop army to stroll into your area. If your enemy has a stack of mages in there, knocking out 20-40% isn't shabby. You can't protect them all...
The problem is their efficiency. If you can kill 600 troops with a 30-gem spell, why would you consider summoning 3 cool-sounding 10-gem units (that can kill 20 humanoids each), or arrowing 3 commanders (who would die in the MW anyway), or calling several swarms of black hawks to attack (who would accomplish nothing at all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), or whatever... once you get that kind of spell, most other usages of gems become wasteful. I think that army and province bLasters should be WAY more expensive, and scaled with dominion strength.

As for assassins. I never found them to be useful no matter how I kitted them out, as they always died after a couple attempts. Until I read the newsGroups and gave them lifelong protection, which makes your assassin virtually unstoppable, except to things with trample. Actually, my fully-loaded, lifelong protected Slayers were conquering provinces all by themselves. In other words, I thought normal assassins were too weak, and assassins with unlimited free summons were way too strong. How does the strength of assassins seem in Dominions II?

-Cherry

P.S. Is Vengence of the Dead still bugged to count undead as kills, so that it doubles effectiveness each time it is cast on a commander?

[ October 17, 2003, 00:25: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Pocus

October 17th, 2003, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by Patrik:
Summoners: Battlefield summons (for example lesser elementals and Howl) now cost gems. This will address the relief/summoning combo.
this will adress the power of Howl, but wont change anything about relief, as Wendigo pointed it. With 3 druids, you basically suppress the fatigues incurred by your mages during the 5 first rounds. Dont appears very balanced too me, for a 0 gem spell.

Nerfix

October 17th, 2003, 07:04 AM

IMHO leprosy is the worst army bLaster there is:
It is dirt cheap, and even if "just" diseases and wounds the troops, the effects are crushing:
Instead of dead units you will end up having dying troops, who still eat, figth(propably not for long though) and have upkeep cost.

You can also get it ealier than other army bLasters, and it think requires less skill to cast than others.

[ October 17, 2003, 06:07: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

ywl

October 17th, 2003, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
Army BLasting Spells... I don't have enough experience but are they really such a big deal? It takes 30 gems to cast MW... It's quite an expensive ritual.

Not too expensive by the time it's in play. Much less "expensive" than allowing the 600 troop army to stroll into your area. If your enemy has a stack of mages in there, knocking out 20-40% isn't shabby. You can't protect them all...
The problem is their efficiency. If you can kill 600 troops with a 30-gem spell, why would you consider summoning 3 cool-sounding 10-gem units (that can kill 20 humanoids each), or arrowing 3 commanders (who would die in the MW anyway), or calling several swarms of black hawks to attack (who would accomplish nothing at all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), or whatever... once you get that kind of spell, most other usages of gems become wasteful. I think that army and province bLasters should be WAY more expensive, and scaled with dominion strength.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't think that you can kill 600 troops with a single MW. As Alex said, it can only kill 20%-40% of an army. If your enemy has a 2000 units army, Mw won't help you.

In my experience, 30 water gems is a significant amount even at turn 30. 15 water gems per turn is a very good income already.

I can think of many other good ways to use 30 water gems. 30 water gems give 30 winter wolves, or 3 Boots of Quickness - neither is too shabby.

Nerfix

October 17th, 2003, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by ywl:
"Curse of the Deads", a spell to curse a commander with a large body-count remotely.

"Mark of Kurgi", a spell to horror-mark a mass murderer from a distance - for later Horror attack.

"Smite of Justice", a thunderbolt to strike whoever kill too many.

"Scythe of Conscience", renders whoever kill too many feeblemind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ?

Just some random thoughts.I kinda like them, but they are commander bLasting spells, and "Assasination" was one of the ten whammies... Curse of Death and Mark of Kurgi are good, but Smite of Justice and Scythe of Conscience are commander bLasting spells for sure.

Edit: I wonder why there isn't an "Earthquake" province bLasting spell for earth... I don't mean it would be the temple killing earthquake, but an earthquake in general.

Edit Redux: I also predict that Star Child will become the new king of assasins in Dom II because of the singletarget, range 50, precision 100 no AoE paralyzing Mind BLast. Just put SC in the other edge of the batlefield and bLast away with Mind BLast. Extra paralyzation does 2 damage/round, it may not be the fastest way to kill someone, but powerfull nevertheless. I however think that MR can be used to resist Mind BLast. But he still has Star Fires, Luck, Twist Fate and Body Ethereal with him if the enemy resists. And if you give him Astral Skullcap, he can Horror Mark commanders, Mind Burn commanders, and in fact, he can Mind Hunt commanders from some cozy laboratory.

But this is just what i predict.

[ October 17, 2003, 06:39: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Pocus

October 17th, 2003, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by ywl:
I don't think that you can kill 600 troops with a single MW. As Alex said, it can only kill 20%-40% of an army. If your enemy has a 2000 units army, Mw won't help you.

In my experience, 30 water gems is a significant amount even at turn 30. 15 water gems per turn is a very good income already.

I can think of many other good ways to use 30 water gems. 30 water gems give 30 winter wolves, or 3 Boots of Quickness - neither is too shabby.The murdering winter spell, aside from taking out group of mages along with mundane units (thus weakening them even further compared to magical summons) act as a very strong deterrent to gather any sizable force in a given location. A nation which is capable of MW'ing his opponent has already strategical and tactical superiority, even before casting the second one, as your opponent will have big difficulties (to say the least) resisting any sizable land attacks of your. When the MW'ing nation has national units immune to cold, as Caelum, it is even worse, as you cant force him to break down his force into defeatable stacks.

In the house rules some of us plays, we interdicted the casting of the 3 army bLasting spells in no dominions was in the province. Perhaps too extreme, and a solution could be to tie the cost of the spell to the dominions level : if you dont have a presence in a province, harnessing magical energies in it should be more difficult somehow.

To understand the problem, you have to play games which Last reasonnably long, on medium to large maps. It seems to me that dominions is failing in his game balance when you reach this point, but this is seldomly seen as most tests and games are stopped before reaching this extremity.

If Daynarr or Psitticine can give their opinion on how these spells play in doms II, then perhaps further conclusions could be drawn.

Pocus

October 17th, 2003, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Until I read the newsGroups and gave them lifelong protection, which makes your assassin virtually unstoppable, except to things with trample. Actually, my fully-loaded, lifelong protected Slayers were conquering provinces all by themselves. In other words, I thought normal assassins were too weak, and assassins with unlimited free summons were way too strong. How does the strength of assassins seem in Dominions II?
lifelong protection is one of the item which must be nerfed, IMHO.

P.S. Is Vengence of the Dead still bugged to count undead as kills, so that it doubles effectiveness each time it is cast on a commander?this is not a bug, this is a 'work as designed feature' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Nagot Gick Fel

October 17th, 2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
lifelong protection is one of the item which must be nerfed, IMHO.Simple nerf: just increase the probability for Horror attack.

Pocus

October 17th, 2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
lifelong protection is one of the item which must be nerfed, IMHO.Simple nerf: just increase the probability for Horror attack.<hr /></blockquote>instead of an endless stream of imps, which enable an assassin to take out all but the nastiest commanders, I would have prefered something like 5 rounds of imps and then no more. Sufficient IMHO compared to the power of the item.

Nagot Gick Fel

October 17th, 2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
lifelong protection is one of the item which must be nerfed, IMHO.Simple nerf: just increase the probability for Horror attack.<hr /></blockquote>instead of an endless stream of imps, which enable an assassin to take out all but the nastiest commanders, I would have prefered something like 5 rounds of imps and then no more. Sufficient IMHO compared to the power of the item.<hr /></blockquote>Or 1 imp/round instead of 2 (my preference). Or a swarm of 10-20 imps when the battle starts (similar to the Wraith Crown).

Pocus

October 17th, 2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Aristoteles:
Lifelong protection must be nerfed, OR

as we all know, the disabling spell ability in the mod tools is a must have. If we will be able to disable spells, these discussions will be pointless. We can disable the unbalanced/disliked spells by our own, and we wont have to whine, that 'plz fix this, fix that'. IW is already flooded with work.i feel that we are reashing again and again the same things :

1. it is always better to have a game balanced by the devs, they know all the intricacies and implications incurred by a changes, it is their game after all.
2. it solves the problem of players which dont have time to browse all the mods to asserts which ones balances things the way they want. Also, not all players are aware enough of the game subttle mechanisms to make the best appraisal about a given issue.
3. it solves the problem of MP games where you have to decide democratically which one to use.

ywl

October 17th, 2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Nerfix:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ywl:
"Curse of the Deads", a spell to curse a commander with a large body-count remotely.

"Mark of Kurgi", a spell to horror-mark a mass murderer from a distance - for later Horror attack.

"Smite of Justice", a thunderbolt to strike whoever kill too many.

"Scythe of Conscience", renders whoever kill too many feeblemind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ?

Just some random thoughts.I kinda like them, but they are commander bLasting spells, and "Assasination" was one of the ten whammies... Curse of Death and Mark of Kurgi are good, but Smite of Justice and Scythe of Conscience are commander bLasting spells for sure.

<hr /></blockquote>They're for targeting mass murderers.

Magic save can always be allowed. I was just being light in detail.

ywl

October 17th, 2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
The murdering winter spell, aside from taking out group of mages along with mundane units (thus weakening them even further compared to magical summons) act as a very strong deterrent to gather any sizable force in a given location. A nation which is capable of MW'ing his opponent has already strategical and tactical superiority, even before casting the second one, as your opponent will have big difficulties (to say the least) resisting any sizable land attacks of your. When the MW'ing nation has national units immune to cold, as Caelum, it is even worse, as you cant force him to break down his force into defeatable stacks.

>- snipped -<

To understand the problem, you have to play games which Last reasonnably long, on medium to large maps. It seems to me that dominions is failing in his game balance when you reach this point, but this is seldomly seen as most tests and games are stopped before reaching this extremity.

If Daynarr or Psitticine can give their opinion on how these spells play in doms II, then perhaps further conclusions could be drawn.[/QB]If cold resistance is now only partial, it might give Caelum a smaller advantage. I agree that cold-resistant or underwater nations have a major advantage here.

On the game of game balance in the late game. It could be the key of the issue. Or it's just because magical endgames in MP have different rules or foci from what everybody is used to. Such endgames so uncommonly played, and the player base of Dom 1 is so small that I don't think we've explored them well-enough.

apoger

October 17th, 2003, 04:31 PM

>I don't think that you can kill 600 troops with a single MW. As Alex said, it can only kill 20%-40% of an army. If your enemy has a 2000 units army, Mw won't help you.

A single MW or FFTS will kill very close to 20-25% of an army that is made of conventional troops. With multiple castings you can get the damage close to 50%, and yes I have seen/done multiples many times.

As Pocus points out, one of the big effects is strategic. Once an enemy gets hit by MW/FFTS he tends to split his forces up to mitigate the potential damage. Now the attacker can focus while the enemy is split up.

I usually don't cast these spells to nail troops. I am almost always more interested in depleting the mage strength in the army. Many opponents use communion, relief, or wards. If I can knock out any part of a combo pre-battle it's worth almost any gem cost!

On the other hand... we are discussing Dom I, who can say what will happen in Dom II after players have worked the new system for months?

Mortifer

October 17th, 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Aristoteles:
Lifelong protection must be nerfed, OR

as we all know, the disabling spell ability in the mod tools is a must have. If we will be able to disable spells, these discussions will be pointless. We can disable the unbalanced/disliked spells by our own, and we wont have to whine, that 'plz fix this, fix that'. IW is already flooded with work.i feel that we are reashing again and again the same things :

1. it is always better to have a game balanced by the devs, they know all the intricacies and implications incurred by a changes, it is their game after all.
2. it solves the problem of players which dont have time to browse all the mods to asserts which ones balances things the way they want. Also, not all players are aware enough of the game subttle mechanisms to make the best appraisal about a given issue.
3. it solves the problem of MP games where you have to decide democratically which one to use.<hr /></blockquote>I agree Pocus. The vanilla game must be balanced.
However I agree with Aristoteles as well. If you feel that something is unbalanced you can remove it. That is always good.
Just check out the various balance packs for SE IV. It is a good things, if the players are able to balance/tweak what they want.

apoger

October 17th, 2003, 04:35 PM

>I also predict that Star Child will become the new king of assasins in Dom II because of the singletarget, range 50, precision 100 no AoE paralyzing Mind BLast.

The Star Child was already king of assassins. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It's all about Star Fire.

Nerfix

October 17th, 2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by apoger:
>I also predict that Star Child will become the new king of assasins in Dom II because of the singletarget, range 50, precision 100 no AoE paralyzing Mind BLast.

The Star Child was already king of assassins. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It's all about Star Fire.IMO undead summoning assasins were/are better, but Starchilds were/are very good also.

Actualy, Lord of the Nigth with Black Heart is the king of assasins. Heliopagus with Black Heart gets close. Dusk Elders with Black Hearts are quite nasty too.

apoger

October 17th, 2003, 04:40 PM

>Lifelong protection must be nerfed

Let's see it's effect in the new game before passing judgement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Pocus

October 17th, 2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Mortifer:
I agree Pocus. The vanilla game must be balanced.
However I agree with Aristoteles as well. If you feel that something is unbalanced you can remove it. That is always good.
Just check out the various balance packs for SE IV. It is a good things, if the players are able to balance/tweak what they want.[/QB]darn, I forgot my main point : I dont want to end with a dominions game stripped of many spells and items, just because they are overpowered. Because this is what you will be able to do with a mod. To imagine that the game mechanics of a particular item (number of imps generated and for how many turn eg) will be tweakable is very optimistic to say the least (naive would fit better). So it is better to balance, and not just suppress them (less strategies).

apoger

October 17th, 2003, 04:43 PM

>IMO undead summoning assasins were/are better, but Starchilds were/are very good also.

>Actualy, Lord of the Nigth with Black Heart is the king of assasins. Heliopagus with Black Heart gets close. Dusk Elders with Black Hearts are quite nasty too.

Ok, when we say "assassins" I took that to mean regular assassins without items. Otherwise why would we even mention the starchild in the same post? Of course it pales next to funky supercharged stuff.

The starchild has always been the most dangerous unaugmented assassin coming from a national list.

Gandalf Parker

October 17th, 2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by apoger:
The starchild has always been the most dangerous unaugmented assassin coming from a national list.Really? I will believe you. I guess I need to play with Ryleh abit. I always thought the Abyssia one with fire aura was pretty cranked. Or the Ctis one with two magics and the ability to lead in invisible troops.

Saber Cherry

October 17th, 2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I guess I need to play with Ryleh abit. I always thought the Abyssia one with fire aura was pretty cranked. Or the Ctis one with two magics and the ability to lead in invisible troops.There's no comparison between Slayer and Starchild - Slayers get taken out by normal commanders often, in my experience. Starchilds annihilate any normal commander with no damage, and outrange most magical commanders. I don't know about Empoisoners - only used one once, and I remember that fatigue limited him to a few skeletons before passing out.

ywl

October 17th, 2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by apoger:
>1) Super-Combatants. Except for Ice Devils, I think that most super-combatants are fine.

Said like a person that never had a Sphinx dropped on their capital on turn 7. The abuse can get a lot worse than the loss of a 100 HI. That's the problem of a Sphinx, not Super-Combatants in gerneral.

I've seen it in action. I'm not impressed. A minimally configured Sphinx is good for disabling one castle of one enemy in a small map. It's good for a small, cutthroat game. But otherwise, I don't really find it very useful.

Actually, I don't really think a Sphinx with only Astral can even qualify as a Super-Combatant... It's good for routing your enemies but Astral alone kills *too* slowly. It'd be different if it also had Fire or Death but that'd be quite an expensive pretender. The Super-Combatants I've used, tested or seen can easily demolish - in the sense of wiping out of their existence http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif - 100+ HI in around 10 combat rounds. An astral sphinx falls far behind.

And also, the pretender is the center-piece of any nation design and should be powerful. The Great Mother, Nataraja or Moloch isn't bad at combat neither.

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>3) Magic Duel. It's fine in its current form. Or Astral would be too powerful . The only nations severly hurt by MD is Marignon.

C'tis and Jotunheim also often field mages that have astral-1. Even the astral-2 mages are dangerously behind the astral-3 nations. The tricks that can be done to pump astral are available to everyone. The astral-3 nations are always ahead of the curve on this, and as such it makes life hard on the lesser astral nations.

It's something you must always consider when playing with astral magic.

Marignon was singled out because their lesser Astral mages are expensive. C'tis and Jotun's low level astral mages look quite expendible to me.

I agree that Mind Duel should be a factor to consider while using Astral. But Astral also have advantages that everybody need to look at when they prepare the game strategy.

I'm also curious, has anybody managed to slaughtered a large number of enemy mages with MD after the bug-fix? It's theoretically possible. But to pull it out, it seems to be quite an achievement in scripting and guessing your enemy's move to me.

>4) Ritual Summon... what does it mean?

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>5) Battlefield Summon. Not sure - I haven't seen enough.

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>6) Battlefield spells. Does it means "Wrathful Sky" and others?

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To me, all these magical twists of tactical combat are what make Dominions fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . The battlefield can't be dominated just by the largest army. And magical creatures, demon lords, mages that single-handedly demolish an army are all stuffs we read in fantasy novels anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>8) Army BLasting Spells... I don't have enough

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Once MW and FFTS start getting thrown about, conventional armies with mages become much less important. You must start to rely on super combatants and larger summoned creatures. I'm not a big fan of this kind of endgame. I much prefer it when things resolve before this much magic becomes available.
As I said, I don't have enough experience. But it could be just because the end-stage is a different game.

Or we can always have an game setting option for limiting the spell level. Everybody can then tailor the game to his flavour.

>9) Province BLasting spells. An useful and fun

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>10) Assassination. I haven't seen anybody using them with effect more than mere annoyance.

I was talking more about assassination spells than assassin characters.

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Most commander assasination spells are slightly on the cheap side. But since they can be easily defeated by a large number of cheap priests or scouts, so the cost might be reasonable. I don't know.

Yes. I understand that most of the whammies are advice to newer players rather than problems of the game.

Gandalf Parker

October 17th, 2003, 05:58 PM

Just as a guideline for these discussions IMHO

Having administrated MUDs for decades Ive gotten to play alot with concepts such as balance. People who program or admin such games tend toward either fixing by addition (boosting the low stuff which players refer to as "upgrades") or fixing by subtraction (taking things away from something that is too high-end, which players refer to as "nerfing"). In my experience the best MUDs (and probably any other game) are where you have both types at work.

As far as Dominions goes... my preference is that I dont want anything to disappear which might be a tactic. Even if the programmers dont see how it could possibly be used tactically, Id like to see it go in so that WE can try to figure out how to use it.

Along the same line, I dont want to see anything become an automatic default, or an unarguable "best strategy". I think that anything which seems useless should be examined extensively and if a hidden use cant be found then dont remove it, upgrade it (this was one of my favorite things to work on in Dom 1). Also, anything which seemed over-powerful to the point of seeming to be an automatic choice should also not be removed, just nerfed in some way (others in the newsgroup were hot in this area).