A question about bless effects

[st.patrik]

So I was reading over some Posts from a week or two ago and trying to get clear on exactly what the bless effects are dependant on starting magic. So far what I've figured out is the following:

Path......Variable Bonus (4+)........Static Bonus (9)
Death.........fear................................ ?
Water.........+ defense.......................?
Astral.........+ magic resistance.........twist fate
Fire............+ attack..........................burning weapons
Air..............missile protection..........?
Blood.........+ strength......................?
Earth..........berserk...........................p rotection +4
Nature.......+ reinvigoration..............regeneration

So the questions are: first, is this right? and second, can you fill in the missing parts please? finally third, how is berserk an increasing ability?

[ October 16, 2003, 05:45: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

[Daynarr]

Lol, I wonder where did you get those values. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Ok, here is the list of bonuses.

None - Morale +3
Fire 4 - Attack Skill +2
Fire 9 - Flaming Weapons
Air 4 - Air Shield (20%)
Air 9 - Shock resistance (75%)
Water 4 - Defense Skill +2
Water 9 - Quickness (50%)
Earth 4 - Reinvigoration 2
Earth 9 - Armor value +4
Astral 4 - Magic Resistance +1 (Max 18)
Astral 9 - Twist Fate (protection from first hit)
Death 4 - Lesser Fear
Death 9 - Life after Death
Death 9 - Fear (Undead beings only)
Nature 4 - Berserk +1
Nature 9 - Regeneration
Nature 9 - Poison Resistance (50%)
Blood 4 - Strength +2
Blood 9 - Death Curse

Thats all of them.

[Endoperez]

Life after Death, hmm... If they die they rise up as undead? Cool... But are the undead holy too, or unholy?
Your bowmen kill 50 blessed flagellants who rise up as undead, and your troops run away because they have fear... That would be nice! But it might be a bit too powerful. Are the risen just normal soulless, or ghouls, or what?
And what is "Death Curse"? It sounds bad...

Oh, and look at those air and nature bonuses given at level 9: with wards, you get full protection of holy troops. So in theory, it is possible to pull out Wrath of God without damaging your own troops. I'm not sure if I like this, its power depends from the available holy units.

[apoger]

Thanks for the list, but I have some questions...

>Fire 9 - Flaming Weapons

What is the effect of flaming weapons?
Extra damage? Armor piercing? Ignites enemies? Extra damage versus undead? Hits ethereal?

>Air 4 - Air Shield (20%)

What is 20% of an air shield?
20% damage reduction to missiles? 20% chance of nulling a missile?

>Water 9 - Quickness (50%)

The spell quickness doubles actions. What is 50% of quickness?

>Death 9 - Life after Death

Sounds interesting.... what is it?

>Nature 4 - Berserk +1

What does +1 berserk do? Just +1 to strength/morale/attack once damaged?

>Blood 9 - Death Curse

Like the spell "curse" or is it something else?

Sorry for the hassle... but this stuff is very interesting and a bit more description is called for. Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Endoperez]

Now that I have thought this more, I have an additional question:
The bless effect only come into play after the unit has been blessed. Do the level 9 effects come with simple blessing, or do you have to use stronger priestly spell, Divine Armanents or some such?
And ae the bless effects same for unholy troops?

edit: found name for 'that divine spell giving flaming weapons'

[ October 16, 2003, 12:09: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
Thanks for the list, but I have some questions...

>Fire 9 - Flaming Weapons

What is the effect of flaming weapons?
Extra damage? Armor piercing? Ignites enemies? Extra damage versus undead? Hits ethereal?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Guess: same as 'Divine Armaments'? Ie, ignites enemies and - I think - bypass etherealness (I'd like to have someone confirm or infirm this).

>Air 4 - Air Shield (20%)

What is 20% of an air shield?
20% damage reduction to missiles? 20% chance of nulling a missile? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Guess: the latter.

>Water 9 - Quickness (50%)

The spell quickness doubles actions. What is 50% of quickness?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Guess: probably works like the 'Heroic Quickness' ability - ie, AP +50%, and a 2nd action every other turn.

>Death 9 - Life after Death

Sounds interesting.... what is it?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Guess: like the LAD battle enchantment? (Turns friendly non-undead casualties into Soulless)

>Nature 4 - Berserk +1

What does +1 berserk do? Just +1 to strength/morale/attack once damaged?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Guess: probably -1 DEF too, and 99 morale.

>Blood 9 - Death Curse

Like the spell "curse" or is it something else?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No idea, but it sounds frightening... Maybe a melee Version of 'Anathema', curses only enemy holy units? Or - shudder - a melee 'Decay'?

Sorry for the hassle... but this stuff is very interesting and a bit more description is called for. Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed - but from what I've read so far, I'd be tempted to pick many paths at +4 skill and have the lesser effects stack.

[johan osterman]

All effects come into effect as soon as a unit is blessed.

The lvl 4 bless effects will increase at lvl 6 8 10, the ones in the +1/+2 range will increase 1 by 1 for every other level, I do not recall how much the airshield increases. Berserk is now a variable stat so berserk +1 means you will get +1 to str att prot and -1 def. Berserk +4 means you get att str prot +4 def -4. Berserks now also incurs a small fatigue penalty every turn (2). Quicknes 50% means you have a 50% chance of getting an additional action, works like the hall of fame quickness effect. Prophets are constantly blessed.

[ October 16, 2003, 11:17: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
All effects come into effect as soon as a unit is blessed.

The lvl 4 bless effects will increase at lvl 6 8 10, the ones in the +1/+2 range will increase 1 by 1 for every other level, I do not recall how much the airshield increases. Berserk is now a variable stat so berserk +1 means you will get +1 to str att prot and -1 def. Berserk +4 means you get att str prot +4 def -4. Berserks now also incurs a small fatigue penalty every turn (2). Quicknes 50% means you have a 50% chance of getting an additional action, works like the hall of fame quickness effect. Prophets are constantly blessed.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds cool... and thanks by the way for the info Daynarr - I guess I got nature and earth effects back to front.

Now here's the question: does berserk make you berserk? i.e. aside from the stat modifications, does it make you forget what you were doing and charge toward the enemy? I have this vision of a bunch of white centaur archer/priest commanders getting blessed and then running toward the advancing Ulmish infantry in a fit of berserk rage, only to get decimated.

[st.patrik]

I really wonder how this will work out - how viable it will be to have high-magic pretenders (and therefore many bonuses). I'm picturing Black Templars belonging to a pretender with 10 in Astral and 10 in Earth, charging into the enemy with 13 mr, 29 prot., constant reinvigoration, and twist fate for the first hit! (this is assuming, btw, that black templars have much the same stats as black knights)

*edit - if this sounds skeptical/complaining, it's not intended to be; I'm just thinking out loud

[ October 16, 2003, 13:42: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
I really wonder how this will work out - how viable it will be to have high-magic pretenders (and therefore many bonuses). I'm picturing Black Templars belonging to a pretender with 10 in Astral and 10 in Earth, charging into the enemy with 13 mr, 29 prot., constant reinvigoration, and twist fate for the first hit! (this is assuming, btw, that black templars have much the same stats as black knights)

*edit - if this sounds skeptical/complaining, it's not intended to be; I'm just thinking out loud<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMO if you are ever capable of reaching such high levels in magic, then your economy will be so crappy that you wont be able to afford a single templar http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Psitticine]

Yep, there just aren't enough points to do that and not mess yourself up in every other way.

I was testing the demo Last night with a Vampire Queen who was leading Arcocephale. I was able to give her Death 10 and Blood 4, but had to take a few negative scales and a lower Dominion strength than I like. I did get a fairly decent fortress, but the points had been stretched pretty thin. If I had gone for a cheaper pretender (The Vampire Queen is quite powerful and, thus, rather costly) then I would have been able to have a higher second path or possibly added a third path without sacrificing so much, but to get two 10s with a Pretender means draining away from everything else.

It can be an interesting strategy, and I'm not saying it isn't worth it to go ahead and try it, but the penalties to everything else certainly balance your blessing power.

I often take a lower-cost Pretender and equip them with one level 9 and two level 4 paths. That's powerful but not overwhelming, and I don't have to take too cheap a dominion or fortress.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Psitticine:
Yep, there just aren't enough points to do that and not mess yourself up in every other way.

I was testing the demo Last night --snip the rest-- <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Stop. You have said enough! When our suffering will end, at Last! when, Ô Gods of Mercy, will you look upon your lost child and give them the Holy Mana!

nice post anyway. Is it level 9 or 10 to get this Last bit of blessing power btw?

[Psitticine]

10 will get you the fullest power from the first level blessings as they go up either by +1 for two levels (i.e. you get another bump for each even level of power reach) or +5% for the Air blessings. The second tier is composed of things that you have or you don't. They arrive with power 9 and, unlike the "lesser" blessings, don't get stronger if you go up to 10.

[Vodalian]

Wasn't it so that empowerment doesn't affect blessing effects?

[Wick]

So a Dominions I blessing is equivalent to a pretender with Fire 6 & Blood 6? That's high for Dom I but... what was that about a Demo?! :-)

[LordArioch]

I must say I like these blessing effects. They add a variety of abilities that can be used strategically and none of them are so powerful that pretenders will need to be designed based on particular bless abilities in competetive games. It actually seems to make bless much weaker overall...unless you have a plan for bless effects + sacred troop + other spells that combine effectively.

Things I can see definite use for
Air 10 (35% air shield and 75 lightning resist) used with battlefield spells this could be nasty even without wards.

Earth 9 and ulm...troops that don't get tired and have another +4 armor? those would be some really tough black templars.

Nature 10! You get a -4 defense but +4 prot, attack, and strength is nice. And if your protection IS penetrated you regenerate anyway. Also your troops won't rout and they will be hard to poison. I can't resist but think of REALLY REALLY tough black templars. This one seems maybe a bit too strong even, but I'm going to wait for the *demo* to pass judgement on it.

Also...it's probably been covered, but does ermor get these blessing effects too? I can see some really nasty unholy troops with all the magic ermor gets from its negative scales. Maybe death and astral for really frightening almost unbanishable elite undead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I must say to Illwinter...you seem to be making dominions 2 signifigantly better than the first. It's always good to judge the quality of a game by the number of people demanding minor improvements and changes...it means they have no major issues. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Vodalian]

Seeing that my first post in this topic was ignored, I ask again. Does empowering your god in some magic path also raise the bless effect of your priests? For example, if you give your pretender 3 air and later empower him to 4 air, will you receive the additional air shield effect to your blessings?

[Nerfix]

The effect is initial, dying or empowering makes no diffrence.

[Wick]

"Earth 9 and ulm...troops that don't get tired and have another +4 armor? those would be some really tough black templars."

Think "Communicants are sacred" and this could be very impressive. The Protection +4 might even make Battle Vestals reasonable... nah.

Nature would appear to rule, which makes me wonder what Pangea got for sacred troops. Anyone?

[Saber Cherry]

Other than White Centaurs?

[Wick]

Pangea certainly has White Centaurs and Dryads but I meant "troops" as in "not leaders". They'd have to be new to Dom II.

[Kristoffer O]

White Centaurs are not commanders anymore, they are sacred Centaur Warriors (also a new unit). Instead Pangaea has Hierophants (same as White Centaur before).

[ywl]

How about blessed effects for Unholy troops?

Ermor of Dom 1 gets the very good unholy knight, and it's the only nation who can afford an uber pretender. It'll give them huge advantage of blessing in Dom 2.

So, are the unholy knights in the Ashen Empire theme of Dom 2 blessable?

[Nerfix]

2003-01-29
* Unholy undeads got their blessing removed every turn, fixed.
* Heavy music didn't always stop between battles, resulting in too much music.
* More generous strategic move system.

I'll let the Dom II progress speak ma' words...

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
2003-01-29
* More generous strategic move system.

I'll let the Dom II progress speak ma' words...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i remember this entry now. wonder what it can be?

[ywl]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
2003-01-29
* Unholy undeads got their blessing removed every turn, fixed.
* Heavy music didn't always stop between battles, resulting in too much music.
* More generous strategic move system.

I'll let the Dom II progress speak ma' words...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

It could make the knights of the Ashen Empire theme quite dangerous. But it'll all depend on how fast they're generated in the castle.

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by ywl:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Nerfix:
2003-01-29
* Unholy undeads got their blessing removed every turn, fixed.
* Heavy music didn't always stop between battles, resulting in too much music.
* More generous strategic move system.

I'll let the Dom II progress speak ma' words...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

It could make the knights of the Ashen Empire theme quite dangerous. But it'll all depend on how fast they're generated in the castle.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1 per 1 candle in the castle province?
Otherwise the mechanic could be pretty much the same as in Dom I, whatever the mechanic is...

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
Now here's the question: does berserk make you berserk? i.e. aside from the stat modifications, does it make you forget what you were doing and charge toward the enemy? I have this vision of a bunch of white centaur archer/priest commanders getting blessed and then running toward the advancing Ulmish infantry in a fit of berserk rage, only to get decimated.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think this question ever got answered [even if there are no more white centaurs]. Can anyone say if the way things work mean that blessed troops of a nature-strong pretender will rush at the enemy, ignoring all orders? If so it seems like a major liability to me, rather than an advantage.

also, in Dom I bless effects were applied to priestly commanders. Is that the same in Dom II? If so, the effect I'm asking about would be an even bigger liability.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by st.patrik:
Now here's the question: does berserk make you berserk? i.e. aside from the stat modifications, does it make you forget what you were doing and charge toward the enemy? I have this vision of a bunch of white centaur archer/priest commanders getting blessed and then running toward the advancing Ulmish infantry in a fit of berserk rage, only to get decimated.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think this question ever got answered [even if there are no more white centaurs]. Can anyone say if the way things work mean that blessed troops of a nature-strong pretender will rush at the enemy, ignoring all orders? If so it seems like a major liability to me, rather than an advantage.

also, in Dom I bless effects were applied to priestly commanders. Is that the same in Dom II? If so, the effect I'm asking about would be an even bigger liability.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As long as you have not been damaged there is no chance that you will go berserk, unless someone cast the spell growing fury. After you have been blessed you behave like any other unit with the berserk fx.

[st.patrik]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by st.patrik:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by st.patrik:
Now here's the question: does berserk make you berserk? i.e. aside from the stat modifications, does it make you forget what you were doing and charge toward the enemy? I have this vision of a bunch of white centaur archer/priest commanders getting blessed and then running toward the advancing Ulmish infantry in a fit of berserk rage, only to get decimated.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think this question ever got answered [even if there are no more white centaurs]. Can anyone say if the way things work mean that blessed troops of a nature-strong pretender will rush at the enemy, ignoring all orders? If so it seems like a major liability to me, rather than an advantage.

also, in Dom I bless effects were applied to priestly commanders. Is that the same in Dom II? If so, the effect I'm asking about would be an even bigger liability.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As long as you have not been damaged there is no chance that you will go berserk, unless someone cast the spell growing fury. After you have been blessed you behave like any other unit with the berserk fx.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the reply Johan. I was confusing the regular berserk thing with the effect of wearing a berserker pelt - which wouldn't have been pretty.

However, it still seems like it could be something of a liability, if your opponent is able to get at you with even 1 point of damage you're out of the spell-casting/missile-firing, etc. game. Seems like spells like 'Swarm' could be used to great effect here, or black hawks - they won't kill much, but they could cause your opponent's sacred archers to run into the arms of your waiting heavy infantry...

Of course, I have yet to see how it will play out - it suppose if it were a problem the betatesters would have come across it. [This makes me think of a different question - but I guess I'll start a new thread for that one.]

[ October 18, 2003, 18:45: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by st.patrik:
Thanks for the reply Johan. I was confusing the regular berserk thing with the effect of wearing a berserker pelt - which wouldn't have been pretty.

However, it still seems like it could be something of a liability, if your opponent is able to get at you with even 1 point of damage you're out of the spell-casting/missile-firing, etc. game. Seems like spells like 'Swarm' could be used to great effect here, or black hawks - they won't kill much, but they could cause your opponent's sacred archers to run into the arms of your waiting heavy infantry...

Of course, I have yet to see how it will play out - it suppose if it were a problem the betatesters would have come across it. [This makes me think of a different question - but I guess I'll start a new thread for that one.]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not think there are any sacred archers (white centaurs do have javelins though).

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by st.patrik:

However, it still seems like it could be something of a liability, if your opponent is able to get at you with even 1 point of damage you're out of the spell-casting/missile-firing, etc. game. Seems like spells like 'Swarm' could be used to great effect here, or black hawks - they won't kill much, but they could cause your opponent's sacred archers to run into the arms of your waiting heavy infantry...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The nature bless effect might very well be the most powerful one, so even if the potentional berserkings of priests or mage priests is a slight liability that liability might be a balancing factor.

[Vodalian]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by st.patrik:
Thanks for the reply Johan. I was confusing the regular berserk thing with the effect of wearing a berserker pelt - which wouldn't have been pretty.

However, it still seems like it could be something of a liability, if your opponent is able to get at you with even 1 point of damage you're out of the spell-casting/missile-firing, etc. game. Seems like spells like 'Swarm' could be used to great effect here, or black hawks - they won't kill much, but they could cause your opponent's sacred archers to run into the arms of your waiting heavy infantry...

Of course, I have yet to see how it will play out - it suppose if it were a problem the betatesters would have come across it. [This makes me think of a different question - but I guess I'll start a new thread for that one.]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not think there are any sacred archers (white centaurs do have javelins though).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What happened to the amazon pegasi riders?

[Kristoffer O]

Oh, forgot about them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Vodalian:
What happened to the amazon pegasi riders?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">they perform better in melee with their awesome defence, so using them as shortbowmen is anyway not a good idea (generally, sure it can depends).