Is the price of Dominions II a deterrent?

[Saber Cherry]

Please answer the poll honestly.

Currently, Dominions II costs $45 + s/h.

[Nerfix]

I think the price is about rigth, IW deserves every drop of money they can get, i buy the games i want and there isn't many of them and i'm used to pay $50-60 for games.

[Saber Cherry]

By the way: You CANNOT view the results without voting, for a reason. As such, please do not post the poll results in this thread. Feel free to post how you voted, or your own views, however http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And yes, I realize this poll is completely biased, because it is in the official Dominions forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ October 30, 2003, 21:21: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[licker]

I answered honestly, though I think you should have reworded the first question, or removed it. The third question is the only one that really matters.

No one is capeable of saying what Dom2 is worth other than for themselves. Shrapnel could say something about total costs and mark up to get whatever return they are shooting for, other than that, saying the game is too expensive or too cheap is totally subjective and not very informative.

[PhilD]

This, I'm afraid, is the perfect example of a poll that can only show biased results.

First, people browsing this forum will mostly be of the "converted" type, so for a lot of them the price will be right (nobody in their right minds will say that it should be more expensive, unless they're the developers or publisher http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

Second, the same "converted" people will become defensive and overestimate the maximum amount they'd spend on a game like DomII. Especially since they already know how much they'll be spending (me, I'm not spending anything; my girlfriend ordered it for me as a birthday present - at least there's a positive side to turning a year older http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ).

[Saber Cherry]

I put the first one in for a reason, and it is different than the Last one. I agree that the results of the first and second Q's won't suggest a specific course of action, like the 3rd one does... but they still reveal interesting information about people.

Regardless, you can't change polls once posted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

I will pay anything for a game. It doesnt matter to me. However, Dom 1 I bought 6 copies of and Dom 2 Im wondering about the one Ive already pre-ordered. I might stop at one copy.

I dont regret it. I think Illwinter should get paid well for Dom 1 (yes I said Dom 1) and even if I dont end up playing Dom 2 much Id consider it good to have sent Illwinter money. I hope they get a good percentage.

On the other hand this may be premature. I cant completely judge from the demo.

[ October 30, 2003, 21:39: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[licker]

Heh, I voted that they should charge more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

From a "maximize your returns" point of view I really think they should, but I don't know nearly enough of the costing details from Shrapnel, nor do I know what margin they find acceptalbe.

What is strange is that many people have voted that they'd pay more, but that they think the game is priced right or is too expensive... you can't have it both ways you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Saber Cherry]

I think I mentioned before, I bought a Playstation ($100) just so I could play Xenogears ($40). But it took me a year to decide on that course of action, during which time the PS went from $150 to $100. And even though I "only" got 99 hours from Xenogears (as opposed to hundreds from the free Dom I demo) I don't at all regret it. So: my time is worth more that $1.40/hr http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

But price is still relevant to me, so assuming I had not already played Xenogears, I would not buy it or Dominions 2 for, say, $300... even though it might be cost-effective... because I would feel gouged. In fact, that's why I haven't bought Xenosaga+PS2 - that, and the fact that it's not as good as Xenogears http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

-Cherry

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by licker:
What is strange is that many people have voted that they'd pay more, but that they think the game is priced right or is too expensive... you can't have it both ways you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The wording of a question is very important. Consider those questions carefully, and I think you'll see why people have voted that way. I did, for example http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[licker]

Let me clarify something, that has to do with Sabers request that you answer honestly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you voted that you would pay more than $45 for Dom2 and also that it is correctly priced at $45 (or too expensive) you have not answered honestly.

If you would pay more, than it reasons that they should have charged more. Now that's got nothing to do with the intrinsic value of the game, other than to each of us individually. I would have paid $50, so Shrapnel should have charged $50 for me, of course its a bit more complicated than that if you are Shrapnel and trying to figure out how to sell the most games with the best margin, but that wasn't the question now was it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Saber Cherry]

A person might say the game is priced correctly because they feel the price is fair. For example, I feel that the price of flour is "fair". If I was hungry, I would pay 5 times as much as it costs now, even though I think the current price is fair.

[licker]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
A person might say the game is priced correctly because they feel the price is fair. For example, I feel that the price of flour is "fair". If I was hungry, I would pay 5 times as much as it costs now, even though I think the current price is fair. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fair enough (when we're talking about survival), but we're talking about a computer game. If you *honestly* (and I stress that word since you used it the poll) think the game is worth $45 then you won't pay more than $45. Since people apparently think that the game is worth more than $45 they should also think that the price is too low (but be happy about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Its a question of absolutes really. Some people won't pay $45 for the game so its overpriced, some people will pay $45 so its fairly priced, some people will pay more, so its underpriced. How else can you have it?

Again, that's why I questioned the inclusion of Question #1, if you answer it honestly for yourself then you are forced into the above logic. Ahh hell, this is a pointless arguement anyway, though I can't resist squabbleing over semantics for some reason http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[PvK]

licker, you are assuming a principle which not everyone shares: that everyone feels the price of a game should be what they themselves would pay for it.

I think $30-50 is about right for the current market, given the quality of the game and other prices by independent game publishers of good niche games (e.g. Shrapnel, HPS, Matrix). I give Shrapnel some credit for knowing what price point makes sense for them, and vote that it's not too expensive - it seems about right.

That isn't at all in conflict with the fact that I would (and essentially, have) paid more than that (I bought Doms I as well, and would be willing to pay more). Just because I would be willing to pay more, does not mean (to me) that Shrapnel should charge more for it. I don't hold any principle that sellers should charge as much as possible. Nor do I think that my own willingness to pay a certain amount determines what Shrapnel should set its price at.

Indeed, although I would pay more, I think perhaps Shrapnel might do well to charge $30 or less, not because it isn't worth $45, but because it might make many more sales, and earn them more money overall. But again, I don't know all the stuff they know about costs, margins, past sales, etc.

PvK

[ October 30, 2003, 22:18: Message edited by: PvK ]

[licker]

Actually what hung me up on these questions was the answer honestly part, though most people would assume that's a part of any question they are asked, when its stated explicetly it tends to signify something else.

I still stand by my reasoning. The question is not perhaps clear enough though, my interpretation is that the game is too cheap for me, since I am willing to spend more on it. There is no mention of what *Shrapnel* should charge, only, is the game too expensive, cheap, just right.

If you are willing to spend more the game is too cheap. That is as absolute a statement as you can get, if you don't like the absoluteness of it, don't blame me, blame the question, which I have twice... oooops now its three times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, PvK, I agree that the fair price is in some spread, but there is no 'universal' fair price, each of us will have their own break point. And I think by definition the 'fair' price is that personal break point, any higher and you feel the game is unfairly priced. Any lower and the game is again unfairly priced, just that in this case you don't care because you are getting a better deal. This boils down to the 'fair' price being a fixed point, not a spread. If you disagree with that assumption then of course we won't agree on anything else.

Its like buying a used car (which I just did actually) you can figure out what the 'fair' price of the car is, Kelly and a zillion other sites will tell you. However, when you go to negotiate the price you'll go lower than that 'fair' price, the seller will go higher (usually). That mental process doesn't change the fact that there is still a single fair price out there.

Nothing against the poll Saber, like I said, I get all hung up on semantics... especially when I'm board at work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Watchdog]

Whoa.. my god.. I can't believe the results of this poll. That is crazy.

Actually, upon reflection perhaps it's normal. Generally the people that post on game forums are fans of the game. That being the case they have probably already bought it or pre-ordered it.

I just want to take this to a sheer economic level. I'm average joe strat gamer and I've never heard of this company or their games. I find out because one of my nerd cohorts pass's the word around. He says, "try the demo man,"

So, I download it. Great game I'm thinking. It's really unpolished, quirky, and the interface is like it was designed by a computer and not a person. But, in the guts of the game there is definitely some real quality. Something about the way it balances simplicity with complexity is very addictive.

This makes me think about buying it. I go and check out the ordering page and BAM. I don't IW gets a lot of advetising. Their best hook is their demo. To make money on this game they need to convert from demo to purchasing customer quickly.

If I think twice about it, I'm going to think about other games I want too. Games that my friends might actually buy.

I would really like to buy this game and support this emerging company. I know they got it in them to produce some awesome stuff. But the current price of investment is to rich for my blood. I'm just average joe strat gamer.

[NTJedi]

Sorry for the silly question but I must ask.... How can someone vote on these polls ?? I don't see the polls even listed .

[Saber Cherry]

Go down to the very Last post on the thread (actually the first post, cuz these forums are backwards). Then, you can click on the little vote icon.

[Edi]

I'd pay up to €55 or thereabouts for Dominions II, because I've set that figure as the cap that I'm willing to pay for *any* game I think warrants buying because of quality, but I won't pay more. Of course, if I can get things cheaper, I'll take advantage of it, but price does not matter to me all that much when good games are concerned.

I think the €45 is about the right price, IW deserves every penny it can get from this, and at that price and given the quality of the game, it will be very attractive to fantasy TBS gamers (especially since the market offerings are so paltry these days).

Edi

[apoger]

The current price is too steep.

My best suggestion (still) is for IW to offer the game as a download and sell for $30. They can email a product key to the buyer. Many companies have done this and it works just fine. This would cut the production costs dramatically, while probably offering the same or better profit per unit. The low price and ability to "impulse buy" would increase sales greatly.

That's it, I've said my piece. I won't mention it again. And apologies to Shrapnel for suggesting that IW dodge the middleman.

[Saber Cherry]

*bump*

[Wendigo]

It's basically a matter of return on investment: I got 2 years of great gameplay out of Dom I (and I still have a game going on with 2 opponents that refuse to die) so I am basically a satisfied customer.

I paid way more for Legion than I did for Dom I (I thought Wow! Centurion, defender or Rome remade), yet I only played that one for a week...which was the better purchase?

I am thus a satisfied customer and a loyal customer because of previous experience: if Dom II delivers only a tenth of the fun I got from Dom I the purchase will be more than worth the cost.

Besides, with the current Euro-$ exchange rates the $ is just toilet paper. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[PhilD]

Originally posted by licker:


If you are willing to spend more the game is too cheap. That is as absolute a statement as you can get, if you don't like the absoluteness of it, don't blame me, blame the question, which I have twice... oooops now its three times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is your interpretation of the question. Obviously, it's not the same for everyone here.

If Shrapnel's only intent was to make as much money as they could (not saying it is, but that's sometimes one of the goal of commercial companies), they should set the price at the level that will maximize that. Assuming the manufacturing costs are fixed (and yes, they could make it cheaper by offering a "download only" option, though I can understand if they are wary of the possible piracy consequences), the "best" price level is the one that maximizes "profit per unit" times "number of units sold"; increasing the price tag will mean less copies sold, and increasing it too high will undoubtedly mean less profit.

If the answer to "what should the price be" and "how much would you pay for the game" were supposed to be the same, then the question about "is the price right" would be meaningless - the question about how much you'd pay would be enough.

[PDF]

Originally posted by apoger:
The current price is too steep.

My best suggestion (still) is for IW to offer the game as a download and sell for $30. They can email a product key to the buyer. Many companies have done this and it works just fine. This would cut the production costs dramatically, while probably offering the same or better profit per unit. The low price and ability to "impulse buy" would increase sales greatly.

That's it, I've said my piece. I won't mention it again. And apologies to Shrapnel for suggesting that IW dodge the middleman. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I support that, with a downloadable manual though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
I got GalCiv this way just 10 minutes after release http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , it was very cool and avoids waiting for delivery as well as shipping/taxes/customs.
Piracy could be a concern, but frankly I don't think they will be much pirate activity around Dom2, so a simple reg key system would be sufficient protection IMHO.

[Alneyan]

And why a downloadable game would be more likely to be pirated than a "regular" game? If someone does want to pirate a game, transforming the files on a CD into a zip file or some sort of CD image is easy enough. But I don't believe there will be that many people attempting to pirate Dominions 2.

I second the arguments given by PDF about downloable games, no more shipping, no more delays. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Sammual]

Originally posted by apoger:
The current price is too steep.

My best suggestion (still) is for IW to offer the game as a download and sell for $30. They can email a product key to the buyer. Many companies have done this and it works just fine. This would cut the production costs dramatically, while probably offering the same or better profit per unit. The low price and ability to "impulse buy" would increase sales greatly.

That's it, I've said my piece. I won't mention it again. And apologies to Shrapnel for suggesting that IW dodge the middleman. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am SO in favor of this. I buy half my games based on the impulse factor and almost all of them are downloaded Online. I already pre-ordered (The Dom I demo is a game in itself and I wanted to support the further development of this series) so it doesn't matter to me FOR this game.

Sammual

[Wendigo]

There are players without broadband or that simply prefer a more solid return for their money (I do, at least).

I haven't bought Galciv nor will I do, in part because Civ did not do for me (so Civ in space...) but also due to the selling scheme.

Btw, Warlords IV review is up at Gamespot and the site suggests Dom II as alternative...good stuff, the current playerbase of series like Heroes, AoW or Warlords is full of potential customers for Dom II.

edit: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/warlords4heroesofetheria/review.html

[ October 31, 2003, 10:50: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Shir Khan]

I would pay 30 bucks, nothing more.

Max Payne 2 is CHEAPER than Dominions II., and there is a huge difference in quality between these games.

[gregebowman]

Originally posted by blackwulf:
Games such as Space Empires IV, Galactic Civilizations, and Dominions offer deep game play, continued support via substantial patches/enhancements and excellent replay value. These factors in my opinion are very important when determining the products value.

In this regard Dominions 2 is worth the price of admission.

Side Note: Malfador Machinations, Stardock, Illwinter Game Design, and other mom and pop operations exist today because the commercial market continues to fail to bring us the kind of gaming that these small companies offer. However do to the niche market that these smaller companies operate in they have to price their products in such a way that will enable them to continue to grow as a business. Without this growth they could not afford to bring us the games that they do and soon we would not have them as an alternative.

Blackwulf <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, that may be true, but there is a point where it may be too expensive for the consumer, no matter how much they want that product. Take for example Bill's Khaki's. I don't know how many of you have heard of this clothing line, but they make Khaki pants in the USA. They don't send the stuff out to a foreign market to be made at a cheaper price. Therefore, they sell $80 pants. now, some of you may think nothing about paying that much for clothes, but it will be a cold day in Hell before I ever spend that much on one piece of clothing. NOt only can't I afford it, that is way too much IMO for a pair of pants. So there is a niche market for computer games, but the publishers have to be aware that people may not spend too much on their products. That's why I may wait several months for a game on the shelf to go down in price before I buy it. But there are certain games that no matter what they are, I have to have them now. Railroad Tycoon 3 is a case in point. I'll pick it over the weekend.

[Mortifer]

Ahahah!
I already have Railroad Tycoon 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[licker]

Originally posted by PhilD:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by licker:


If you are willing to spend more the game is too cheap. That is as absolute a statement as you can get, if you don't like the absoluteness of it, don't blame me, blame the question, which I have twice... oooops now its three times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is your interpretation of the question. Obviously, it's not the same for everyone here.

If Shrapnel's only intent was to make as much money as they could (not saying it is, but that's sometimes one of the goal of commercial companies), they should set the price at the level that will maximize that. Assuming the manufacturing costs are fixed (and yes, they could make it cheaper by offering a "download only" option, though I can understand if they are wary of the possible piracy consequences), the "best" price level is the one that maximizes "profit per unit" times "number of units sold"; increasing the price tag will mean less copies sold, and increasing it too high will undoubtedly mean less profit.

If the answer to "what should the price be" and "how much would you pay for the game" were supposed to be the same, then the question about "is the price right" would be meaningless - the question about how much you'd pay would be enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is my interpretation of the question, as I said elsewhere. However, no where in the questions is there any mention of Shrapnel. And I've said (4 times now) that the only question of importance is the 3rd one, the 1st is misleading at best.

I don't know how to come up with a 'fair' price other than to wind up at a fixed one, there is no 'range' possible for an idividual, either the game is worth x or it isn't. There is no well today is tuesday so the game is worth more to me...

In reality there is because people are fickle, but that's not the *honest* answer, the game has a fixed value at any given point, so either the game is too cheap, or it is too expensive, unless it is just right. You still can't have it both ways!

If they were selling the game for $15 would you say it is too cheap? What about $5? You have a cut off where you will feel that the game is underprices (though you will be happy it is cheap). So if you answer that the game is worth more to you than what it is being sold for (everyone who answered that they'd pay $50+) then the game is underpriced! There is no other way to look at this, that's why I didn't like the wording of the 1st question.

Again, there is no element of how much Shrapnel should charge in this, that is an entirely different question (in my mind). The questions in this poll are about how much you as an idividual are willing to pay for the game, not about how much Shrapnel should charge, becuase none of us have any idea what that number should be.

[mpace]

I would buy this game immediately if it was a $30.00 download.

[PhilD]

Originally posted by licker:
There is no other way to look at this, that's why I didn't like the wording of the 1st question.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">(snipping most of your post)

Once again, you're changing from "this is my interpretation" to "there is no other way".

[licker]

Originally posted by PhilD:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by licker:
There is no other way to look at this, that's why I didn't like the wording of the 1st question.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">(snipping most of your post)

Once again, you're changing from "this is my interpretation" to "there is no other way". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, because the more I thought about it, there is no other way. It is still my interpretation however, namely that there is no other way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[mpace]

BTW, software piracy is no more an issue with a CD copy of the program, than it is for a downloaded Version. Are you suggesting that software pirates can't wait for the mail?

MS Office, NT 4.0 and countless others are pirated everyday. And all of them are distributed by CD.

Making Dominions 2 available for dowload will only increase the chance that we'll buy it, while at the same time reducing your costs.

I'm not a hacker or a software pirate, but I am an impulse buyer.

[ October 31, 2003, 17:43: Message edited by: mpace ]

[Mephisto]

The problem with downloads is the bandwith you have to provide and to handle all the cases of corrupted and aborted downloads. It's mainly a technical problem for Shrapnel.

[mpace]

Originally posted by Mephisto:
The problem with downloads is the bandwith you have to provide and to handle all the cases of corrupted and aborted downloads. It's mainly a technical problem for Shrapnel. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find this hard to believe, since the demo is being download as we speak. You'll have to come up with a better excuse than that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Dryton]

Nice Poll, I liked the 3 tiered questions. Also interesting to see how everyone else voted as well.

[PvK]

Shrapnel does offer download sales of some other games.

There was a post from Shapnel saying they weren't including a digital manual with the demo to make it harder for pirates...

... it was also mentioned that buying Doms II gets you a manual, and someone mentioned full-color item catalog...

... so since we're just wildly conjecturing here, lemme suggest that part of the reason for the $45 price and lack of download is the physical manual. Just an idea.

On the other hand, SE4 Gold is still priced at $39.95. It comes with a pretty good manual, but I expect not as good as the Doms II manual. Dungeon Odyssey is available for $29.95 download... or $29.95 via CD (printable manual only).

I dunno. Personally, I think Doms II is a great deal at $45 if you like the game. It offer huge amounts of fun play time. If you like the game, but don't buy it because the price is $15 higher than you'd like to pay, it seems to me you're just talking yourself out of a lot of fun. There isn't really any similar game available... except Doms I - you can get that for $30, and it's quite good.

PvK

[PvK]

Actually, Tim Brooks just made a nice post on this topic HERE. (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000221)

(No color manual, as I conjectured in the Last post. However from other Posts by Psi it sounds like it will be a treasure trove of game mechanics and stats info, which is much better.)

PvK

[Richard]

Originally posted by mpace:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Mephisto:
The problem with downloads is the bandwith you have to provide and to handle all the cases of corrupted and aborted downloads. It's mainly a technical problem for Shrapnel. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find this hard to believe, since the demo is being download as we speak. You'll have to come up with a better excuse than that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actuallt that's exactly the reason. It isn't just a question of traffic, it's also a question of burst traffic. If you get a lot of people downloading at once you have to find a way to manage that since your connection will be cut off by your ISP if you go over so much traffic per second. Also it requires extra servers to support the extra bandwidth per second that would saturate your network card on a single server. The demo is 71 MB, but a a full game is anywhere from 250-450 M in size. You have to deal with re-connections, and garbled downloads. If your dealing with folks with crappy connections you'll have multiple long connections to your server that tie up resources.

It would require more money than it we would make, so it isn't worth it.

On every game we have sold as a download, it sold poorly, until we offered a CD based alternative. Then it sold like hotcakes.

This is from practical experience.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Richard:
Actuallt that's exactly the reason. It isn't just a question of traffic, it's also a question of burst traffic.
[further elaboration snipped]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have you ever considered using Bit Torrent to smooth out your download spikes?

[Richard]

Originally posted by Jasper:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Richard:
Actuallt that's exactly the reason. It isn't just a question of traffic, it's also a question of burst traffic.
[further elaboration snipped]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have you ever considered using Bit Torrent to smooth out your download spikes? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um isn't that a file sharing program? I would have a serious problem giving out our final code (since we don't do shareware) to folks to distribute across the internet.

We haven't had the best experience with games that are downloadable. Magazines won't review them because they see them as shareware. We did the games we have done mainly at the request of our customers and we have not seen dramatic level of sales for our downloadable games compared to physical Version.

Also we would have to make a manual available as a pdf, which would make the game an easy target for pirates.

On the server end you also have to worry about long held download sessions, many of our customers are still on dialup.

And the customer service issues with having to turn back on failed downloads, etc.

So far the download experiment has not been a success for us.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Jasper:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Richard:
Actuallt that's exactly the reason. It isn't just a question of traffic, it's also a question of burst traffic.
[further elaboration snipped]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have you ever considered using Bit Torrent to smooth out your download spikes? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That might work for the 70MB demos, but wouldn't work very well for a buy-and-download model; BitTorrent isn't designed to accommodate that sort of restriction on who can download from it.

[Alneyan]

Originally posted by Shir Khan:
I would pay 30 bucks, nothing more.

Max Payne 2 is CHEAPER than Dominions II., and there is a huge difference in quality between these games. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for this bit of wisdom, I wasn't aware Max Payne 2 was a strategy game, let alone a TBS. I gather Max Payne 2 is quite different from the one then?

Sarcasms aside, how can you compare two completely different games such as Max Payne and Dominions? The only field would be graphics, or the amount of money invested in the game. (Max Payne is the winner in the former case without a doubt) If you don't like TBS games, then obviously you would prefer Max Payne, and vice versa. But how you can compare the two is beyond my knowledge.

[Mortifer]

Oh boy I love polls! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


The results so far:

Do you think Dominions II is too expensive?
Yes, it is too expensive. 56% (23)
It's about right. 41% (17)
No, it should cost more. 2% (1)


What is the maximum you would pay for Dominions II?
$50 or more 41% (17)
$45 10% (4)
$40 5% (2)
$30 37% (15)
$20 7% (3)
$10 0% (0)
I would not pay anything for Dominions II. 0% (0)


The community is totally divided about this. Interesting as usual.

[blackwulf]

Games such as Space Empires IV, Galactic Civilizations, and Dominions offer deep game play, continued support via substantial patches/enhancements and excellent replay value. These factors in my opinion are very important when determining the products value.

In this regard Dominions 2 is worth the price of admission.

Side Note: Malfador Machinations, Stardock, Illwinter Game Design, and other mom and pop operations exist today because the commercial market continues to fail to bring us the kind of gaming that these small companies offer. However do to the niche market that these smaller companies operate in they have to price their products in such a way that will enable them to continue to grow as a business. Without this growth they could not afford to bring us the games that they do and soon we would not have them as an alternative.

Blackwulf

[Watchdog]

Well, if downloading hasn't been successful then I guess you should just lower the price and take the hit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Seriously though, your volume would inrease a lot and that will more than make up for it. Drop the price to atleast and you'll get my $$.

That's how much I paid for aow2SM and I'm not paying more than that for this game.

[Richard]

The people who buy our games are hardcore folks, dropping the price will not influence them to buy or not buy the game.

We have dropped game prices before and we have never seen a spike in sales. Sorry that doesn't work for the game we make.

[blackwulf]

What do companies like Shrapnel & Illwinter Game Design offer for your money?

#1. Deep, imaginative game design developed and published by people that enjoy game substance over flash.

#2. Immense variety within said game designs with vast replay potential.

#3. Flexibility that allows us to modify the game so that we can play the game the way we want to.

#4. They offer neck deep involvement in these forums and do their best to meet customer needs and desires.

#5. They continue to support and enhance most games sometimes years after they have been published.

What I want to understand is why there is such a debate as to the price of this game?

Let’s say you played the demo and thought the game sucked why would you purchase it at a lower price?

Now if you played the demo and loved it or are a fan of the original Dominions would you seriously deny yourself this game because you think it should be $10- $15 cheaper?

Does anyone here think that Shrapnel & Illwinter added $10 to the price of the game so they could make it into FORBES top ten list next year?

The bottom line is that Dominion’s 2 offers more depth, and more replay value than your average $50 eye candy laden game title and they only want $45.

Not a bad deal if you ask me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

-Blackwulf

[ November 03, 2003, 10:20: Message edited by: blackwulf ]

[MythicalMino]

Originally posted by Watchdog:


That's how much I paid for aow2SM and I'm not paying more than that for this game. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, but I bought that game for 30 bucks....and if I could go back, i wouldn't pay 5 bucks for it....I just hated that game....

To me, Dominions offers EVERYTHING that I have wanted in a strategy game, AND, it is fantasy based....but not typical fantasy....original fantasy....

To me, that is worth the ticket....then there is the replayability of it all....

Shadow Magic was just...I don't know, human words simply cannot describe it....it would be more like a painful howl....

[Gandalf Parker]

For a game that requires specific types of computers, such as high-end windows machines, then the price doesnt really matter since I wont need alot of it. For a game that can run on anything, it does matter, at least for me.

I understand that probably there arent alot of people who have many machines hooked up with many people who want to play with each other. For me to replace all my Dom1 copies would take one months retirement check. Im waiting to see what method has been used to balance some races, and what options are in the map editor, before I decide on a full shift to Dom2 games.

But as I said, Im probably not in a group large enough for consideration on whether pricing works or not. Other options that I would have been happy to see would be built-in allowance for home lan as some games have allowing you legally to play an MP game at home with one disc, or bulk discounts, or a cheaper Online method for buying just a CD key which is possible because it involves no production and shipping.

[ November 03, 2003, 13:28: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Watchdog]

I would definitely "deny" myself this game for 10 or 15 bucks. Basically I don't have a lot of money to spend on video games. When a company is charging more than almost any other game out there for it's product I want to know why.

All I can see for why is

1. People will pay for it. They have a core group of rabid fans who will pay any price for their products.

2. They have some distrobution issues they are unable to resolve.

Neither of these reasons warrants such a high price in my opinion. The cost/benefits comes off a bit in the negative by about 5 to 10 bucks.

Somebody asked if the price was a deterrant and so don't flame me for answering that question because for me, YES the price is a deterrant.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Watchdog:
I would definitely "deny" myself this game for 10 or 15 bucks. Basically I don't have a lot of money to spend on video games. When a company is charging more than almost any other game out there for it's product I want to know why.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Im not disagreeing with your other points but I wanted to point out....
The price of this game was much lower for Dom 1 which was only sold off of the programmers web page. The price for Dom 2 is not really "higher" but is very much like the prices of the other games being offered on Shrapnel game site. Shrapnel is the production company marketing this new Version of the game and is offering experienced advice in this area.

[ November 03, 2003, 17:02: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[DominionsFan]

Bahahhaa, I am very young, so my father will buy the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif 30 or 50 I don't care! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Alneyan]

There may be other factors explaining why Dominions II seems expensive for you: Sharpnel is basically selling less games than, say, EA. Less sales result in a higher sell price, even if the costs to make a game are less expensive.

Along the sames lines, either Doug Church or Warren Spector (If you don't know who they are, perhaps you know some of the games they have been involved in: Ultima Underworld, System Shock, the Thief series, Deus Ex, Ultima 7 if memory serves right, to name but a few) said that, while the cost to make Thief were *ten* times higher than for Ultima Underworld, the sales for the game were about the same. You can see there will be a problem somewhere at this rate.

And Tim said that the costs needed just to make the CD and the manual are raising as well with each pasing year. And I would believe other expenses were increased as well. If you haven't read their Posts, I would advise you to do so if you want to know why their games tend to be more expensive. (At least for the inhabitants of the USA. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

If that can help you make feel better, Dominions II is a very cheap game by the standards here in France. The average game costs in fact more than Dominions, even if you don't take into account the current exchange rates. (If you say a dollar is equal to an euro, your average costs about 50 to 55 dollars here in France. At the moment it would be somewhere between 60 and 65 dollars.) So as far as I am concerned, Dominions is a cheap game, less expensive than most. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 03, 2003, 17:54: Message edited by: Alneyan ]

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Bahahhaa, I am very young, so my father will buy the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif 30 or 50 I don't care! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Other options that I would have been happy to see would be built-in allowance for home lan as some games have allowing you legally to play an MP game at home with one disc, or bulk discounts, or a cheaper Online method for buying just a CD key which is possible because it involves no production and shipping. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both of these requests seem reasonable.

We've been told that the manual itself costs a lot to print, so it would make sense to offer a "pure CD key" option for a significantly lower price.

And then, all I'd have to do would be convince my girlfriend to play. I'll start with the easy lobbying option, and convince Shrapnel to offer us a BIG discount http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Watchdog]

They use CDkeys too?! Oh my god... I don't patronize bioware or blizzard because of their attack on home lan environments. Guess I'm adding shrapnel to my list of unfriendly money grubbing company's.

Look. I'm not a company making huge profits. I'm not a university paying for everything with grants or a government organization paying with taxes. I'm a guy who works for a living. You people just don't have the right to expect home Users to pay for multiple licenses of software. You just don't, period. Sooner or later that tactic is going to run you guys out of business and I'll be happy to see it happen.

Great game or not, your business practices stink.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Watchdog:
They use CDkeys too?! Oh my god... I don't patronize bioware or blizzard because of their attack on home lan environments. Guess I'm adding shrapnel to my list of unfriendly money grubbing company's.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In this case Im not sure there is a choice. The only real protection that Dom1 had was that the host would insult and badly treat players that showed up with the same CD-key. That wasnt a really all-encompasing protection. I dont see an easy way to ignore it for lan and still have it work for internet. (take into account proxies, ram drives, the different ways that lans can be created, etc)

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Watchdog:
They use CDkeys too?! Oh my god... I don't patronize bioware or blizzard because of their attack on home lan environments. Guess I'm adding shrapnel to my list of unfriendly money grubbing company's.

Look. I'm not a company making huge profits. I'm not a university paying for everything with grants or a government organization paying with taxes. I'm a guy who works for a living. You people just don't have the right to expect home Users to pay for multiple licenses of software. You just don't, period. Sooner or later that tactic is going to run you guys out of business and I'll be happy to see it happen.

Great game or not, your business practices stink. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If ever shrapnelgames forces you to buy and pay 45 USD for a game, I'll be right there besides you, brandishing a sign, sporting a bandana, shouting slogans, climbing barricades and establishing a revolutionary court. Until then I fail to see what your grievance is. If you for various reasons find the game unreasonably priced, don't buy it.

[licker]

Originally posted by Watchdog:
I would definitely "deny" myself this game for 10 or 15 bucks. Basically I don't have a lot of money to spend on video games. When a company is charging more than almost any other game out there for it's product I want to know why.

All I can see for why is

1. People will pay for it. They have a core group of rabid fans who will pay any price for their products.

2. They have some distrobution issues they are unable to resolve.

Neither of these reasons warrants such a high price in my opinion. The cost/benefits comes off a bit in the negative by about 5 to 10 bucks.

Somebody asked if the price was a deterrant and so don't flame me for answering that question because for me, YES the price is a deterrant. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This reasoning is a bit strange to me. How do you arrive at how much a game is worth to you? Do you take the projected hours of entertainment and divide by the cost? Or do you simply decide that no game over $35 is worth the money? Are there other issues involved?

Don't take that as a flame, its not, I'm just curious about the mind set of people who don't think Dom2 is worth $45. Again, we're not talking about how much profit Shrap and Illwinter will make, we're not talking about how much of a margin is 'fair' for them to tack on. We're talking about how much Dom2 is worth to *you*.

Many people have said its worth more than $50, and I assume they base that at least in part on what other games go for in retal ($50+ for new releases), I'm sure that even if everyone did an accurate analysis of what their time/price point is for Dom2 and it came out to $1 and hour they would be loathe to spend $100 on the game while assuming they were going to get 100+ hours out of it.

I dunno, alot of opinions in this thread seem so completely arbitrary to me that they have essentially no value at all.

And what is this bit about companies not having the right to market and sell their games on their terms? Of course they have the right to sell the product however they damn well want to, just as you have the right to not buy the product. You may dislike how CD-Keys affect your Lan parties, but the game maker probably dislikes how they lose customers because not everyone needs to buy the product in the first place to enjoy it. I'm not saying which side I agree with, just that to invoke the 'R' word is seriously misguided.

[blackwulf]

licker,

I couldn’t agree with you more.

The problem seems to me that if you own a business you are automatically labeled a money grubbing capitalist pig. It does not matter if you are Microsoft or run a small business out of your home.

-blackwulf

[PvK]

Hmm. It is too bad not to allow friends to play in the same game from one copy, as long as they aren't taking it home. Especially for getting girlfriends, wives, children, parents, etc. involved. It seems like there might be a reasonable work-around to allow this. At least, to allow them to play multiple nations hot-seat in the same game. That is, allow the same registration number as long as the same network address is used. I guess it would still be a problem for people calling in on dialup accounts with dynamic IP addresses, but maybe other means could establish it was the same computer.

Mmm, another idea - give everyone several "sub" registration codes, but only allow them to be used if their "master" registration code is also in the game. Or, do like many games do, and allow people to play multi-player only, and only if at least one player has a registered copy.

PvK

[ November 03, 2003, 23:47: Message edited by: PvK ]

[blackwulf]

Originally posted by Watchdog:
They use CDkeys too?! Oh my god... I don't patronize bioware or blizzard because of their attack on home lan environments. Guess I'm adding shrapnel to my list of unfriendly money grubbing company's.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow that statment says it all.

Blizzard just recently released a mammoth patch/enhancement for a game that is over two years old. Bioware have developed some of the best games in RPG over the Last decade. Both are dedicated to their customer base and produce award winning titles. However you don't patronize them because you feel that they don't deserve to be paid for each person that enjoys countless hours playing their games.


Originally posted by Watchdog:
You people just don't have the right to expect home Users to pay for multiple licenses of software. You just don't, period. Sooner or later that tactic is going to run you guys out of business and I'll be happy to see it happen..<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually they do have that right. Just like you have the right to spend your money where you want to.

[licker]

Originally posted by PvK:
Hmm. It is too bad not to allow friends to play in the same game from one copy, as long as they aren't taking it home. Especially for getting girlfriends, wives, children, parents, etc. involved. It seems like there might be a reasonable work-around to allow this. At least, to allow them to play multiple nations hot-seat in the same game. That is, allow the same registration number as long as the same network address is used. I guess it would still be a problem for people calling in on dialup accounts with dynamic IP addresses, but maybe other means could establish it was the same computer.

Mmm, another idea - give everyone several "sub" registration codes, but only allow them to be used if their "master" registration code is also in the game. Or, do like many games do, and allow people to play multi-player only, and only if at least one player has a registered copy.

PvK <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've not tried hotseat, but you can play on teh same comp no problem I'm assuming.

Sure its nicer to have the Lan, but hey, many people playing on one CD is supported...

[Watchdog]

I fail to understand what is so difficult to grasp about my position. My complaint is simple. I want this game, but I feel like the company's business practice's are unethical. This forces me to pass the product by even though I'd really like to play it. I won't because I refuse to patronize a company that uses cdkeys and charges so much for a 2nd rate product.

Let me explain. I want to play this game. But not as much as I want to play, say, age of wonders shadow magic. From there the math and logic are simple.

Shadow magic works just fine on my lan without any cdkey nonsense so I can play it with my girlfriend. It cost less than 35 dollars.

More use, more fun, less cost. Shadow magic wins. So even though Dom is cool, they lost me with their business ethics.

I do not feel like they should make a profit based on individual solely. Over the internet, sure. But in one's own home with one's family?

Do you really think that is just? To treat a family like it's some corporation with multiple licenses of say, office for word processing?

See, company's make money, so do universities and governments. These are profit based organizations, (please, don't make me argue that point I've seen plenty of examples of both of the later institutions ledgers) they make money.

They make money using another company's software. Since they are profiting from another's company's software there is justice in the idea that the company should pay for multiple licenses.

My household makes no profit. Simply put, although I enjoy games they are a leisure activity. I don't make any money from them. Therefore, to suggest that using multiple instances to get the maximum enjoyment from my game is worth purchasing multiple licenses, NO!

BTW, hot seat sucks. Most company's have mothballed this feature. Waste of time.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Watchdog:
More use, more fun, less cost. Shadow magic wins. So even though Dom is cool, they lost me with their business ethics.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Then provide a mechanism whereby it is possible to prevent others (anyone not in your family) from using your copy of Dom2, while at the same time allowing others (anyone in your family) to play the game. Also note that most games that do not force you to play on only one comptuer still have clauses in their licenses that only allow you to play on one computer at a time.

I'm not really seeing why people are complaining about the price anyways, considering that it's right in the middle of normal prices for just-released games. In fact, it's cheaper than the average new release, at $58 CDN, while most sit at $69 CDN or more.

[blackwulf]

Originally posted by Watchdog:
I fail to understand what is so difficult to grasp about my position.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I feel that your position is unrealistic. Additionally the focus of your position has changed. Originally before you discovered that you need to purchase additional copies to play lan games you were simply appalled at the price. Now the major focal point of your reply is that they dare to require that each player own a copy of the game.

It seems that you want them to knock $10-$15 off the game and allow you and all your friends/family to play multiplayer lan games for free. There is nothing wrong with feeling this way. However to wish that someone goes out of business because they don’t agree with your demands is a bit much don’t you think?

Originally posted by Watchdog:
I refuse to patronize a company that uses cdkeys and charges so much for a 2nd rate product.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">.

Why would you want to purchase a 2nd rate product at any price?

Originally posted by Watchdog:
These are profit based organizations, (please, don't make me argue that point I've seen plenty of examples of both of the later institutions ledgers) they make money. .<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">.

So because you have seen the ledgers of a few companies that have made profits you can infer from this that all businesses are making money?

Originally posted by Watchdog:
BTW, hot seat sucks. Most company's have mothballed this feature. Waste of time. .<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">.

While I do agree that hot seat is not my favorite . I feel that some people might actually be happy with the option. Simply because it is of no use to you does not make it a waste of time to include.

-blackwulf

[ November 04, 2003, 07:34: Message edited by: blackwulf ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by Watchdog:
I fail to understand what is so difficult to grasp about my position. My complaint is simple. I want this game, but I feel like the company's business practice's are unethical. This forces me to pass the product by even though I'd really like to play it. I won't because I refuse to patronize a company that uses cdkeys and charges so much for a 2nd rate product.

Let me explain. I want to play this game. But not as much as I want to play, say, age of wonders shadow magic. From there the math and logic are simple. ... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I understand. If you like Doms II less than AOW, play AOW. Different players like different games. I believe Shrapnel when they say they need to sell it at $45 based on their costs and business model.

More importantly, my tastes are the reverse of yours in this case. To me, AOW2 is a marginal product, which I wouldn't pay more than about $10 for, while to me, Doms I and II are the best (and really, the only) games of their type. To me, they're worth $45, or even $30 for the one and $45 for the second (plus shipping, etc). I'll be playing the heck out of them, so they'll be great deals for me, which no other game can substitute for.

Anyway, I understand where you're coming from. Stick with what you like. Hopefully though, you can appreciate that some of us think the Doms games are unique, excellent, and well worth the price Shrapnel needs to charge for them.

PvK

[Tim Brooks]

Watchdog:

You may not like our business practices in respect to software piracy and pricing, but you've got to respect us for letting you come into our 'home', use our bandwidth - which, by the way, is paid for partially by the money we make off of Dominions II - and express your wishes that you hope we go out of business, that our games are second rate, and that our business practices stink. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also, if we didn't offer copy protection, our license would still only allow you to use the software on one computer at a time. I don't know of one game publisher that doesn't have a license stating this. So your objection is quite hollow, as to play mulit-player, even in your home, would require multiple copies.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Tim Brooks:
Also, if we didn't offer copy protection, our license would still only allow you to use the software on one computer at a time. I don't know of one game publisher that doesn't have a license stating this.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with you in general, and think the pricing is fine; why should the best game in it's genre come at a discount?! Moreover those saying the price should be lower have only opinion to back up their claims, which seems rather pale to me in comparison to practical experience.

Still, it's worth pointing out that there is a rather prominent exception to your blanket statement -- Warcraft 2. This let 3 players play in a multiplayer game per CD, but you needed a cd for solo play. IMHO this was a wise move, and probably contributed to Warcraft's popularity and Blizzard's ascension.

Admitedly Warcraft is the sort of game this tactic is perfect for, and Dominions probably isn't...

[Watchdog]

I'll just make one more point and then I'll leave off the topic. In my defense I originally posted with such energy because it looked like the price might actually be re-assigned once shrap saw that many people were posting about not buying the game because it's price to high. I was wrong.

My Last point is this. Software eula's have yet to be tested in court. They look very impressive but many of them contain several fictions that won't stand up if a judge gets involved. That being the case I tend to take their edict with a grain of salt. I don't pirate because I think it's stealing. But installing multiple instances or making backups(this is also prohibited by some licenses I've seen) are things that I will do regardless of whatever licensing stipulations I click on to install the game without actually agreeing to.

Anyway, Last bit from me. Have fun with your game.


PS.. "offer" copy protection......... lol that's a funny way to put it.

[ November 05, 2003, 13:16: Message edited by: Watchdog ]