Possible bug report: With some Spoilers

[josh_f]

I was playing around with the map files-- adding units not normally available in the demo. For some reason the ice devil Nycator did not have the fire susceptibility trait. I do hope that this is not by design. Even without hands Nycator is going to be a mean super combatent.

[josh_f]

One more suggestion, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif it would be nice to have a method of adding specific devils/demon lord/elemental kings to maps. As it is now I can only add the same king/devil over and over again.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by josh_f:
One more suggestion, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif it would be nice to have a method of adding specific devils/demon lord/elemental kings to maps. As it is now I can only add the same king/devil over and over again. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have you tried adding by number? It might take a long time to find the right one, but unit number is an unambiguous way of specifying the exact unit. At least in Dom I it was.

(How long will it take for someone to make an allunits.map for Dom II?)

[Pocus]

5 mn I think, but it would spoil the fun of discovery for me, so I wont do that.

I just added a Fire Snake once, to check their stats. Cool being for a 2.25 fire gem cost (compared to 6 gems for a summer lion).

if somebody want such a .map file, ask here though.

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by josh_f:
I was playing around with the map files-- adding units not normally available in the demo. For some reason the ice devil Nycator did not have the fire susceptibility trait. I do hope that this is not by design. Even without hands Nycator is going to be a mean super combatent. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He doesn’t have fire susceptibility but he does have icicle fists instead of arms. So he is missing 2 hand slots.

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Pocus:
5 mn I think, but it would spoil the fun of discovery for me, so I wont do that.

I just added a Fire Snake once, to check their stats. Cool being for a 2.25 fire gem cost (compared to 6 gems for a summer lion).

if somebody want such a .map file, ask here though. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, I'm asking. Maybe that will let me guess how to tweak maps a bit...

[Pocus]

ok, go to this directory

http://phmalacher.free.fr/Dominions/

you will find some files for dominions, one is named aranallunits.zip

feel free to take the others, one is named articlesdominion.zip, it can be of some use.

[Pocus]

now, on with an interface question : how do we browse the leaders in a province (except by F1), where there is more than 25? I have not found the key.

[Johan K]

Sure, but I don't think it'll be very useful for mercs unless you want some serious mouse finger exercise.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Johan K:
Sure, but I don't think it'll be very useful for mercs unless you want some serious mouse finger exercise. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is also the tax window which could benefit from the mouse wheel.

perhaps with a 5 or 10 increment for the merc window?

[apoger]

>you will find some files for dominions, one is named aranallunits.zip

I have made a similar file.
1010 is the Last unit number. Edit your file so the units stop there, else the game crashes when you try to view 1011.

[Pocus]

changed, thanks.

[josh_f]

Duh, I forgot about adding units by their #. Now that I have seen the full unit list (thanks pocus!), I'm even more confused about the rationale behind not making Ice Devils fire susceptible. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Arch Devils are cold susceptible, and they are about equal strength to Ice Devils, IMHO. Just looking at their stats Ice Devils seem extremely overpowered for their research level.

[Pocus]

a note though : old units of doms I are still there, so there is still the 'generic' ice devil and arch devil. I dont know if they have been updated, but this can explain why you find some creatures unbalanced.

I saw that the old legionaires of Pythium are still there too. Funny in a sense. Now we have 3 sets of Legionaires (if you add the one of Living Ermor)

[josh_f]

I noticed the old units were still there, and I ignored them. I don't want spoil you, but some of the new ice devils start off with very nice magic items. I've look through the spell list and I see no good way of dealing with an Ice Devil with any spell below level 7. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If Ice Devils were a level 6 summons they would still be better than any non-blood summons. It's possible that my dom 1 experience taints my analysis, and when the full game is out it'll be no problem. Looking at the stats, however, I don't see it. I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by josh_f:
I noticed the old units were still there, and I ignored them. I don't want spoil you, but some of the new ice devils start off with very nice magic items. I've look through the spell list and I see no good way of dealing with an Ice Devil with any spell below level 7. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If Ice Devils were a level 6 summons they would still be better than any non-blood summons. It's possible that my dom 1 experience taints my analysis, and when the full game is out it'll be no problem. Looking at the stats, however, I don't see it. I suppose we'll find out soon enough. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just Mans Cross does 30 armor piercing to undead or demons (for the low low price of 5 fire gems).

Banishment still works on demons.

There's a new low level blood spell, Banish Demon. (I think there should be Control Demon and Demon Mastery, too - at suitable research levels and costs, of course. If you can control magic or undead, why not demons?)

Incinerate should really do a number on fire susceptible creatures (and has 100 PREC and no MR save, IIRC). Depending on how susceptibility interacts with various sources of resistance, it may or may not be possible to get ice devils to be 100 percent fire resistant.

If there isn't already a weapon that instantly slays demons (like Heart Finder Sword/Elf Bane), there should be. For example:

Sword of Righteousness
Fire 1, Astral 1, Construction 4
Damage 8 (x3 vs undead/demons)
Attack 3
Defense 2
Length (whatever the normal length of 1-h swords is)
This sword is forged with spells of righteous fury and deals terrible damage to undead and demons. In addition to its damage, the sword has a chance of instantly destroying any undead or demonic target it strikes. This effect may be resisted by magic resistance (magic penetration 15).

I think that could probably rein in demonic or undead supercombatants (and Molochs and Princes of Death would have cause to fear it - even though their magic resistance is high enough to usually resist the slaying effect, it still does triple damage.)

[apoger]

Originally posted by josh_f:
I noticed the old units were still there, and I ignored them. I don't want spoil you, but some of the new ice devils start off with very nice magic items. I've look through the spell list and I see no good way of dealing with an Ice Devil with any spell below level 7. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif If Ice Devils were a level 6 summons they would still be better than any non-blood summons. It's possible that my dom 1 experience taints my analysis, and when the full game is out it'll be no problem. Looking at the stats, however, I don't see it. I suppose we'll find out soon enough. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We must assume the player summoning an ID will protect it with elemental immunities.

That leaves;

The following could do the job via spell check failure: mind burn, sleep, paralyze, and soul slay.

Starfire, even in it's very weakened form.

Curse, and pray that you can beat it down with afflictions.

and...

That's it. The amount of counters for ID's or super combatants is fleeting in DOM II. Frankly I think this is going to poison multiplayer.

Ice devils would be worthwhile at double the current cost.

Blood summons, already a problem in DOM I, had their costs increased by 50%. Meanwhile elementals had a 100% increase in fatigue, plus gem costs. Seasonal spirits also got a 100% increase in gem cost. Evocation spells are now wildly inaccurate. Starfire got a 400% increase in fatigue while it's damage got cut in half. Undead counterspells now don't work versus "devils".

I can't believe IW dropped the ball so hard on game balance. Pretender super combatants and the blood summons are going to dominate multiplayer games.

Unless of course if I'm missing something...
By all means if you can see some way out of this, let me know!

[licker]

Just wondering if these blood summons are for the uniques? In which they are still badass, but you can only get a limited number of them to begin with.

[apoger]

>Just Mans Cross does 30 armor piercing to undead or demons (for the low low price of 5 fire gems).

They aren't good for much else. So if you have the time to make them. The gems. The research. the mage skill. And *IF* you can actually connect with them in battle... you have a chance, if you can pump in enough damage to beat the ID's regeneration (rings of regen being standard equipment for protecting your devils).

That's a tall order.
In all my time playing Dom I, I never saw an ID killed by a just mans cross.


>Banishment still works on demons.

In Dom I, I have witnessed thousands of banishment attempts on ID's. Once in a blue moon the banishment does 5-6 damage. That's it.

Unless banishment has been massively upgraded, I wouldn't count on it.

[apoger]

Originally posted by licker:
Just wondering if these blood summons are for the uniques? In which they are still badass, but you can only get a limited number of them to begin with. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They aren't limited enough. Not even close. There are enough for each blood nation to get 3-5 each.


It's just my opinion... but I think 6 ID is 5 too many.

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by apoger:
It's just my opinion... but I think 6 ID is 5 too many. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll just have to ask this:
What is so scary in Ice Devils?

[DominionsFan]

apoger, you know that there are fantastic balance mods for SE IV, and that lot of players are using those in MP games.

If we will have the mod tools, we can balance the game ourselves. I am totally sure that we will see balance mod(s) for Doms II. and it is all cool! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[apoger]

>What is so scary in Ice Devils?

They have outstanding stats and make a superb foundation for a super combatant. They are easy to produce if you plan ahead, and get you fantastic value for your investment.

An ID with ethereal cloak, pendent of luck, and a ring of regen, casting quickness and going into battle, can defeat almost any army composed of conventional troops.

Later in the game they can be upgraded with better magic items to provide elemental immunities,improved magic defense, and ridiculous levels of protection or defense. They can be crafted to an extent that makes them very hard to destroy. With the dearth of magics in DOM II, the situation went from bad to worse.

It's like having an extra pretender god. Or worse... like having FIVE extra pretenders.

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by apoger:
>What is so scary in Ice Devils?

They have outstanding stats and make a superb foundation for a super combatant. They are easy to produce if you plan ahead, and get you fantastic value for your investment.

An ID with ethereal cloak, pendent of luck, and a ring of regen, casting quickness and going into battle, can defeat almost any army composed of conventional troops.

Later in the game they can be upgraded with better magic items to provide elemental immunities,improved magic defense, and ridiculous levels of protection or defense. They can be crafted to an extent that makes them very hard to destroy. With the dearth of magics in DOM II, the situation went from bad to worse.

It's like having an extra pretender god. Or worse... like having FIVE extra pretenders. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm...
I lost my faith on ID's when i lost one, a realy well equiped one, against an independent province...

I've always been more concerned on realy big things like Pazuzus and Elemental Kings. Or anything that is over size 3 and has boot slots...

[ October 31, 2003, 23:26: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[apoger]

>I've always been more concerned on realy big things like Pazuzus and Elemental Kings. Or anything that is over size 3 and has boot slots...

Pazuzu are great, but have always cost more than ID. The elemental kings are good, but not as good as ID, and they are much more expensive since they use precious gems instead of plentifull slaves.

PS- ID are size 4, and work quite well with boots of the behemoth.

[Johan K]

+/-, scroll wheel or mid mouse button.

[Pocus]

silly me. Thank you Johan.

by the way, I miss the mouse wheel for 'rise defence' / 'rise bid price of mercenary' windows. Any chance you implement it?

[LordArioch]

I'm pretty sure the old ice devil is one of the 6. Also I can see a limit on ID + blood search revision resulting in the ID and other blood summons being largely divided between mictlan and abysia, with some other nations claiming a lesser share. Also...what happens if you try summoning a ID and they're all taken?
I'd give this some time and let a competive game pass to see how the blood balance works out...but I can see how the decreased money could make blood even more powerful.

[josh_f]

J
Incinerate should really do a number on fire susceptible creatures (and has 100 PREC and no MR save, IIRC). Depending on how susceptibility interacts with various sources of resistance, it may or may not be possible to get ice devils to be 100 percent fire resistant.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately, Ice Devils are no more vulnerible to Fire than any other unit. That was the whole reason I started this thread. In fact one of the ice devils begins with fire resistence, saving the summoner the trouble of outfitting him.
This leaves banishment and just-man cross. Banishment is worthless since they have a mr of 19.
Which leaves one counter, if the AI targets the devil and if you hit. I don't have any problem with super combatents. A look at the unit list shows that there will be alot of them in the end game. The problem I see is the ice devil is going show up long before other SC's.

[LordArioch]

There is a level 2 blood spell banish demon that kills any demon failing its magic resist. Unfortunately It costs 100 fatigue and 1 blood slave to cast so it might be hard to mass cast it on a ID enough to kill it. At least it has perfect accuracy. It at least might work as a counter to an ID if he doesnt kill all your blood slaves in combat.
Don't remember that from Dom 1...hopefully it works as a decent counter.

[josh_f]

re: banish demon: If you are a nation that can afford s to lose 6-7 blood mages to dispel an Ice Devil (mr 19 without an amulet of anti-magic), you would be better off fielding your own Ice Devil.

I only started this topic because in a post dicussing how S.C. wouldn't be a problem, one of the developers mentioned that Ice Devils were heat susceptible. I noticed that they weren't (and one even has fire immunity). I figured it was a bug. My hope is that the units in the demo are not the units in the final game, or that game play has been changed enough that this won't be a problem.

[Pocus]

playing devil (ice subtype) advocate, I once killed an ID with just man cross. This was in a test bed :

ID fully decked, elemental immunity, high prot, quickened, charcoal shield, etc.

against :

20 hypaspysts (for their high morale) as buffer, and 3 hoplites commanders having each an eye of aiming and a JMC.

The ID bumped in the hyps, and started to tear them apart. At round 3, after having been hit twice by JMC, he disapeared in a puff of smoke.

Perhaps I was lucky, dunno. I didnt calculate if the probabilities were with me.