Did you noticed.......

[-Storm-]

......that almost all threads are about some bad "thing"? This is bugged..that is wrong...I don't like this...I don't like that...
Frankly I've barely seen any good things about the demo... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[apoger]

The only nice thing I can say about the demo is that the aesthetics of the game are much improved over Dom I.

I dearly wish they had kept the Dom I game and simply upgraded the graphics.

[-Storm-]

Originally posted by apoger:
The only nice thing I can say about the demo is that the aesthetics of the game are much improved over Dom I.

I dearly wish they had kept the Dom I game and simply upgraded the graphics. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What are the main probs with Dominions II.??? [Other than the bad strategical AI.]

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by apoger:
The only nice thing I can say about the demo is that the aesthetics of the game are much improved over Dom I.

I dearly wish they had kept the Dom I game and simply upgraded the graphics. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Im afraid that Im beginning to agree. Im eager to play the full game and try very hard to convince myself to start playing Dom 2 instead of Dom 1. Especially since Ive got half a dozen copies of Dom 1 and dont expect to do the same for Dom 2.

But then much of what was changed were things that were demanded loudly by lemmings who gave no good reason for demanding it. They dont realize that everything has its pros and cons. There is a price to be paid for shoving something onto the do-list. The full game isnt even out yet and we are seeing the same thing happen again right in this forum IMHO.

[-Storm-]

So Dominions I. is better? I didn't played with Doms I.
So what are the main probs with Doms II.? [Once again, I know about the bad strat AI. post anything else.]

[Nerfix]

What if we all wait for the full Version and then say which one of the games is better, mmmkay?

[LordArioch]

What do you vets think is worse about dom 2? The potential increased focus on supercombatants? And if they could rebalance that would it be better?

I found many changes nice myself, mainly anti-micro features, the lack of a need to patrol/tax, a greatly iproved interface. Only thing I'm lacking is the battle replay speed really. Personally I've found the AI in general to be much better now that old abuses have been removed, although I'm sure new ones can beat it just as well.

[Saber Cherry]

I've found Dominions 2 to be similar or superior in every regard, except 3:

1) Some bugs that snuck in
2) The overall lack of gold income
3) Inability to accelerate battles

What are these major problems that make you prefer MM-heck Dominions I to Dominions II?

[Wendigo]

This can't be serious, I'd like to see a list of those changes for the worst because certainly there are very few that qualify as such (and no, having your favority tactic/style of play whatever nerfed does not count, just adapt).

-The interface takes some time to get used to after having played with the previous one for so long, yet it's way way more powerful:

Now you do not need to hunt for that one researcher you have not moved to the new field, you just make a couple clicks instead of having to readjust every single mage. You can also send all your slaves & gems from clams & such to the lab with a single click...this is a huge MM improvement. Same with the no need to adjust your taxes every turn with bad patrol results.

You can reccord scripts...scripting the 20th support mage in a row was never so easy.

You can move a huge number of commanders together, and no longer are limited by the 18 names max when transferring gems outside of a lab.

-The music is gorgeous, and I love the new look of spell effects like astral shield or nether bolt.

-The number of units almost doubled, from 600+ to 1100+! and we are not talking about MOTS (more of the same, minor changes to previous units), the new units have great descriptions & backgrounds.

The main step back I can think of is the loss of the speed replay, but we might get this one patched in future.

As per the AI needing to build heavier troops, that one will be easy to patch.

So, what else? I hope balance is not being judged before the game has even been released, and besides IW has a good reccord of patching this one in Dom I.

[ November 01, 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Wendigo:
This can't be serious, I'd like to see a list of those changes for the worst because certainly there are very few that qualify as such (and no, having your favority tactic/style of play whatever nerfed does not count, just adapt).

-The interface takes some time to get used to after having played with the previous one for so long, yet it's way way more powerful:

Now you do not need to hunt for that one researcher you have not moved to the new field, you just make a couple clicks instead of having to readjust every single mage. You can also send all your slaves & gems from clams & such to the lab with a single click...this is a huge MM improvement. Same with the no need to adjust your taxes every turn with bad patrol results.

You can reccord scripts...scripting the 20th support mage in a row was never so easy.

You can move a huge number of commanders together, and no longer are limited by the 18 names max when transferring gems outside of a lab.

-The music is gorgeous, and I love the new look of spell effects like astral shield or nether bolt.

-The number of units almost doubled, from 600+ to 1100+! and we are not talking about MOTS (more of the same, minor changes to previous units), the new units have great descriptions & backgrounds.

The main step back I can think of is the loss of the speed replay, but we might get this one patched in future.

As per the AI needing to build heavier troops, that one will be easy to patch.

So, what else? I hope balance is not being judged before the game has even been released, and besides IW has a good reccord of patching this one in Dom I. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well put.

I'd also add I like the new tactical orders better. And the nerfed storms. And the nerfed wards.

[Sammual]

I have only played the two demos (Pre-Ordered copy of Dom II) but I can't see anything Dom I has over II other than combat replay speed and I bet that will be patched.

Sammual

[Gandalf Parker]

OK I scrolled back and read just to make sure and nobody said that Dom II is worse. It definetly has some great advancements, and alot of love has obviously gone into the animated combat. When the full game reaches me I will be better able to pass judgement on the rest

[johan osterman]

Gandalf, I find you first post in this thread bordering on insulting, do you think illwinter is constituted of mindless automatons that implements any change that might be suggested. I have no idea where you are coming from, dom 2 was made the same way dom 1 was, content where added because it was fun, the content of the game have the same originators, the sources are much the same. Most of the input outside our circle of swedish friends where derived from cspigs. So if demands from loud lemmings have made their ways into dominions 2 and ruined the game, you are one of the lemmings.

Apoger, what are your gripes beyond the replay speed and the scarcity of the gold? Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game? As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

[Gandalf Parker]

Quite right, Im sorry I gave that impression. Im getting edgy at some of the "absolute facts" about what is "wrong" with the game that people seem to think must either get fixed, or IW is ignoring them.

So far the demo gives me the impression that the game has moved a far way toward leveling things for more balance, and a better gui, and a product much closer to market standards. As Ive said I am waiting for the full copy Ive ordered.

[apoger]

>Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game?

The looks and a few nice interface tweaks, such as the research pool.

Yup, that's it.

Beyond that is the gameplay, and frankly I think Dom I played better and was better balanced.


>As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

Balance issues is putting it mildly.

Dom I was not about graphics or interface, obviously. What made Dom I great was a combination of incredible complexity and the balance between those complexities. In a game as massive as Dom I there were only a handfull of balance issues.

It seems that IW was intent on making pretenders more potent in Dom II. I have no issue with that. However instead of making pretenders more potent... you guys diminished the potency of near everything else. Taking such a backwards approach has thrown a giant monkey wrench into the games balance. I know that you don't see it, and many players here who aren't familiar with Dom I don't understand, but IMHO it's pretty clear.

Making resources scarce has ripples of effect through the game. It detracts from light troops. It makes it hard to build forts. It makes mages hard to afford. Making it hard to do stuff, is not fun.

Meanwhile players will be inspired to build super combatant pretenders. In multiplay, the whole game is going to be a festival of giant pretenders going on rampages. Hey, I'm one of the biggest abUsers of this sort of strategy, and even I think it's going to get out of control. I want to choose between hard choices and paths. The current system is destined for 'Super combatant face off', and that's not fun.

Blood magic was diminished less than everything else even though it was a major problem in Dom I. What were you thinking? Limiting the super blood summons was good, but it's not limited enough. Still plenty of super combatant chassis to go around. Extra blood slaves can be used for "hordes from hell". HfH, by the way, is also going to be a major issue. Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.

Death magic was not changed. Death summons cost the same, and death mages can still summon skels. Any reason that elemental magic got crushed, but death comes through with no change?

Wrathful skies. Did I not make it clear that this spell is an issue in Dom I? It's going to be much worse in Dom II. Having an enemy air mage cloud trapeze into my army and blow it away with wrathful skies... not fun.

Almost all evocations got nerfed, however I predict that the classic quickness-orb lightning, will be back in force.

The Seithkona nether darts problem will also make a return.

Meanwhile most other evocations have become stunningly inaccurate. It brings new meaning to the phrase "can't hit the broadside of a barn". Mages can't hit AN ARMY that is standing out in front of them with a fireball. OK can't is too strong... can't hit 4 of 5 times. Spells like flying shards and fire flies are jaw dropping as they fan out across the entire length of the battlefield! Funny, yes... but not fun.

High taxes destroying population in droves while low taxes have no effect. A design choice that I just cannot support. And not fun.

While the new interface is better than Dom I, it isn't very good. Certainly not up to standards set by other full priced games. If the game cost $30 then I wouldn't complain, but if you are charging big league prices then you get big league criticism. "It sucks less than Dom I" is not the same as "it's great!". The current Dom II interface is clunky and non-intuitive.

There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Sorry that this post has become a bit of a rant. However the "feel" of Dom II is slow. The "low resouce model" exacerbates the problems with game imbalance since any issue means more since players have less.

Nobody was as big a Dominions fanboy as me, and I'm not upset because the system has changed. I am upset because I percieve that the system has changed for the worse.

It's not just me. I have a friend that cancelled his order after seeing the demo (and not becuase of input from me). My sizable gaming group who are all huge Dom I fans, are seriously questioning whether we should get involved with Dom II.

When push comes to shove, the gameplay of the demo is just not as much fun as the gameplay of Dom I, and I can see trends that will make it worse. Right now in the euphoria surrounding the better graphics and new release, players are being forgiving of the gameplay. When things calm down a bit, they will start to concentrate on game issues, and they will not be as happy as the Dom I community.

Again sorry for the rant, I should have written a more coherent essay. However since I spewed this, I might as well post it.

[ November 02, 2003, 04:19: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Saber Cherry]

I agree with a lot of what you said, though not as vehemently. But a lot of it is holdovers from DomI rather than negative changes. And the negative changes can mostly be remedied fairly easily, once they have been brought to IW's attention... if they are found to, in fact, be detrimental to the final game.

But this:

Apoger:
Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...is flat-out wrong. No more SDR-scout slavers, and seemingly higher unrest incurrence... hmm. No, the blood economy is weaker, period. You have to hunt in many provinces, with expensive (and usually national) mages, not in one or two provinces, with cheap scouts.

Since most of what you said is relevant, but phrased in a harsh manner that Illwinter would not want to read, or would be immediately biased against just by its tone... you're kind of doing the community a disservice. Just like those zealous Christians who burn gays. Is Christianity good, or bad? I don't know, but those people sure turn me off from it, regardless of any virtues it may have.

So, if I were you, I'd rephrase it in a less confrontational manner.

-Cherry

[MStavros]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game?

The looks and a few nice interface tweaks, such as the research pool.

Yup, that's it.

Beyond that is the gameplay, and frankly I think Dom I played better and was better balanced.


>As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

Balance issues is putting it mildly.

Dom I was not about graphics or interface, obviously. What made Dom I great was a combination of incredible complexity and the balance between those complexities. In a game as massive as Dom I there were only a handfull of balance issues.

It seems that IW was intent on making pretenders more potent in Dom II. I have no issue with that. However instead of making pretenders more potent... you guys diminished the potency of near everything else. Taking such a backwards approach has thrown a giant monkey wrench into the games balance. I know that you don't see it, and many players here who aren't familiar with Dom I don't understand, but IMHO it's pretty clear.

Making resources scarce has ripples of effect through the game. It detracts from light troops. It makes it hard to build forts. It makes mages hard to afford. Making it hard to do stuff, is not fun.

Meanwhile players will be inspired to build super combatant pretenders. In multiplay, the whole game is going to be a festival of giant pretenders going on rampages. Hey, I'm one of the biggest abUsers of this sort of strategy, and even I think it's going to get out of control. I want to choose between hard choices and paths. The current system is destined for 'Super combatant face off', and that's not fun.

Blood magic was diminished less than everything else even though it was a major problem in Dom I. What were you thinking? Limiting the super blood summons was good, but it's not limited enough. Still plenty of super combatant chassis to go around. Extra blood slaves can be used for "hordes from hell". HfH, by the way, is also going to be a major issue. Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.

Death magic was not changed. Death summons cost the same, and death mages can still summon skels. Any reason that elemental magic got crushed, but death comes through with no change?

Wrathful skies. Did I not make it clear that this spell is an issue in Dom I? It's going to be much worse in Dom II. Having an enemy air mage cloud trapeze into my army and blow it away with wrathful skies... not fun.

Almost all evocations got nerfed, however I predict that the classic quickness-orb lightning, will be back in force.

The Seithkona nether darts problem will also make a return.

Meanwhile most other evocations have become stunningly inaccurate. It brings new meaning to the phrase "can't hit the broadside of a barn". Mages can't hit AN ARMY that is standing out in front of them with a fireball. OK can't is too strong... can't hit 4 of 5 times. Spells like flying shards and fire flies are jaw dropping as they fan out across the entire length of the battlefield! Funny, yes... but not fun.

High taxes destroying population in droves while low taxes have no effect. A design choice that I just cannot support. And not fun.

While the new interface is better than Dom I, it isn't very good. Certainly not up to standards set by other full priced games. If the game cost $30 then I wouldn't complain, but if you are charging big league prices then you get big league criticism. "It sucks less than Dom I" is not the same as "it's great!". The current Dom II interface is clunky and non-intuitive.

There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Sorry that this post has become a bit of a rant. However the "feel" of Dom II is slow. The "low resouce model" exacerbates the problems with game imbalance since any issue means more since players have less.

Nobody was as big a Dominions fanboy as me, and I'm not upset because the system has changed. I am upset because I percieve that the system has changed for the worse.

It's not just me. I have a friend that cancelled his order after seeing the demo (and not becuase of input from me). My sizable gaming group who are all huge Dom I fans, are seriously questioning whether we should get involved with Dom II.

When push comes to shove, the gameplay of the demo is just not as much fun as the gameplay of Dom I, and I can see trends that will make it worse. Right now in the euphoria surrounding the better graphics and new release, players are being forgiving of the gameplay. When things calm down a bit, they will start to concentrate on game issues, and they will not be as happy as the Dom I community.

Again sorry for the rant, I should have written a more coherent essay. However since I spewed this, I might as well post it. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree, good points..and you didn't even mentioned other things, like the strategic AI etc. etc.

Overall I am quite sad about the demo, maybe some patches will fix our problems. We shall see.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Disagree. The Mausoleum and Watch Tower are good cheap picks for most setups. Compared to a Watch Tower, the Wizard Tower will give you, what, less than 20 more gold/turn with optimal scales? For 120 more design points? I'd certainly invest in a Wizard Tower with, say, Ulm/default - but that's the exception rather than the norm.

[Pocus]

I dont know if my opinion was asked (or even valued), but as I played doms I for one year and a half, here it is:

- the interface is far better, and does a good job in reducing the micromanagement, and accelerating the infos gathering. There is still some issues with it, but I can live without (sorting by column on the overview eg, etc.).

- many minors, or not so minors mechanisms have been improved in the right sense (cant use dousing rods with scouts, improved targetting AI in tac battle, etc etc.). In a sense doms II appears to have many refined mechanisms compared to doms I.

- Many new & good ideas (themes, blessing effects stemming from magic, individualized Demons Princes, etc.). This give a new feel to the game.

Now what I think is detrimental to the game (my major issues) :

- Toning down gold output emphazize even further on a combatting pretender at start. Such a pretender double your initial expansion speed, as you will have problem fielding, rapidly, several provinces-taking regular armies (in dominions I it was possible to have 2 such armies before turn 10).

- Super combattants problem far from being fixed.

- no speed replay in the tac engine. Battles can Last 15 minutes real time now, and I dont feel it is suitable to take a book each time I want to watch the end of a battle.

- Evocations spells wich dont affect the whole battlefield (except a few ones) are even less accurate, and as mages are rarer (not a bad thing per se), I suspect nobody will ever cast a fireball in competitive game environement.

[ November 02, 2003, 09:19: Message edited by: Pocus ]

[MStavros]

Originally posted by Pocus:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">? Nice reply. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Fyron]

When quoting really long Posts, please do not post the entire thing again... post the first line or two, followed by an ellipses (...). All it does is slow page loading times down, and forces everyone to scroll past a big chunk of material they already read. Thanks.

[Pocus]

MStavros :

I was editing the content http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Nerfix]

My only real gripe this far is that army bLasting spells are still there, but i don't know have they been nerfed or not. And we have a new, low level army bLasting spell, but i'll have to see if it is unbalanced or not.

Astral magic turned even more important, but i'm not sure how this will affect the game. Propably more pretenders with Astral.

And Apoger, Curse and Star Fires aren't the only supercombatant counters...

[ November 02, 2003, 10:07: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Johan....you should make some replies in some other threads as well...IE. AI threads etc. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont think you are likely to see a comment on the AI thread until people have had a chance to play the the full game. Without the turns limit people are more likely to play it with realistic settings and gain a whole new viewpoint. This might move the AI thing from being "big #1 problem" to "ok for now but could use tweaking"

[PDF]

I'm not used enough to Dom2 (wasn't even that used to Dom1 ..), but I think the main gameplay change comes from the reduced gold income, itself coming from the new tax/no patrol system.
I fear that Dom2 games will be rather "smallish" in terms of army size compared to Dom1, so focusing more on elite troops/SC (as many pointed out).
But conversely note that the reduced mm will allow us to play larger maps, thus giving nations more gold/resources...
So we've still to experiment, but surely we have to adapt - and changes are always unwelcome to old vets http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Mortifer]

I don't know, I love the whole layout of Dominions II. I love the demo as well, the only thing what I don't like is the weak strategic AI, but that's nothing new, since we're talking about this for days.

I am sure that the devs are checking the AI threads. If I remember correctly, Kris has posted something that he will play some games against the AI, after hes back. [He will be back today.]
So just wait and be patient.

[ November 02, 2003, 14:59: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

[Pocus]

from JO:
The warlock apprentice is certainly not cheaper then a scout with a sanguine dowsing rod. The warlock apprentice is only recruitable in provinces with castles and labs.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have been unable to recruit the apprentice but in the capital. Is it supposed to be that way?

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Pocus:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
from JO:
The warlock apprentice is certainly not cheaper then a scout with a sanguine dowsing rod. The warlock apprentice is only recruitable in provinces with castles and labs.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have been unable to recruit the apprentice but in the capital. Is it supposed to be that way? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No its probably right, I just didn't bother to check out if he was exclusive to the home province or not, and to be on the safe side I made the more inclusive claim. But the home site requierment obviously only strengthen the point I was making.

As for comments on the AI it is better that JK or KO handles that than me. Kristoffer should be back in a couple of hours.

[iRichard]

1) This is a great game.

2) If a (minority??) of players don't like design choices then they should harass (or attack rearmost...) for a modding tool instead of complaining about these choices.

3) However I agree with [don't remember who] whos said that a 50$ game must accept criticism much better than a 30$ game.

5) This is a great game

[Particle]

Yup, great game but it will need lot of fixes/tweaks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Pocus]

what bother me a bit (well more than a bit) is now that blood magic is much more restricted to native blood nations, then SC will concentrate into these nations.

Whereas, as a worst case, you could at least try to counter/temper the influence of SC (which are mostly blood creatures) in doms I by starting blood magic yourself (I remember a pbem game where after 15 turns of efforts, starting from nothing, I produced one ice devil every two turns with a mystic which was empowered in blood magic).

But this was a very poor workaround. What would have been better is to reduce much further the nastiness of big creatures in Doms II (several mechanisms can be found to increase how a sole creature can be mobbed by several smaller ones). With more than 12-15 demons prince available, there is in practice no reduction in the numbers of SC dominions games will see, with the annoying change that they will be controlled by the 4/5 blood nations.

[HJ]

Originally posted by Pocus:
what bother me a bit (well more than a bit) is now that blood magic is much more restricted to native blood nations<snip><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is not a counterargument, but a honest question. Why do you claim this? Is it not just a case of empowering like with everything else? I probably haven't played enough to perceive it, but would be interested to know what's the basis of a claim.

[ November 02, 2003, 19:47: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Zerger]

Pretender SCs are lame. Period. I have no probs with the late game SCs, but IMHO the early pretender SC is a cheap way to abuse the AI.
I am talkin about Doms I. but this will be a problem in Doms II. as well, as I've seen it in the demo.

--This is not a prob. in MP, since everyone will use it.--

[ November 02, 2003, 20:29: Message edited by: Zerger ]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by HJ:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pocus:
what bother me a bit (well more than a bit) is now that blood magic is much more restricted to native blood nations<snip><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is not a counterargument, but a honest question. Why do you claim this? Is it not just a case of empowering like with everything else? I probably haven't played enough to perceive it, but would be interested to know what's the basis of a claim. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">because the blood harvest mechanism restrictions (no more non blood leaders harvesting blood slaves, which is a good thing) prevent non blood nations to develop a strong blood economy. So only native blood nations will be able to summon the strong devils and demons which make the chassis of 90% of super combattants.

Perhaps it is possible to have a small blood economy to run (20 slaves a turn, for the sake of giving a number) if you are no national mages with blood, but as Demons/Devils Princes can be banished like global enchants, you can be sure that the native blood nations will have no problems removing the single SC you were able to summon, if they are your enemy.

Theorically, I dont see a problem in that, it appears legit that Demons&Devils are controlled by blood nations. But these big creatures should either be toned to a reasonable level, or should have problems fighting alone (like Super Pretenders).

[Zerger]

Originally posted by Pocus:
But these big creatures should either be toned to a reasonable level, or should have problems fighting alone (like Super Pretenders). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed, I agree with this.

[HJ]

Originally posted by Pocus:
because the blood harvest mechanism restrictions (no more non blood leaders harvesting blood slaves, which is a good thing) prevent non blood nations to develop a strong blood economy. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought that all commanders have a blood hunt order? That's why I'm asking. Sure you can get more slaves if you start with blood, but you can also gather enough of them to empower a few mages even though you don't start with blood. Are there some other restrictions I am not aware of? What are the restrictions exactly,a nd how are they different from DomI?

[ November 02, 2003, 20:58: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Sammual]

Originally posted by HJ:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pocus:
because the blood harvest mechanism restrictions (no more non blood leaders harvesting blood slaves, which is a good thing) prevent non blood nations to develop a strong blood economy. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I thought that all commanders have a blood hunt order? That's why I'm asking. Sure you can get more slaves if you start with blood, but you can also gather enough of them to empower a few mages even though you don't start with blood. Are there some other restrictions I am not aware of? What are the restrictions exactly,a nd how are they different from DomI? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It looks like the unreast hit for blood hunts is MUCH harder to knock down and I see less blood slaves as a result.

Sammual

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by apoger:

Blood magic was diminished less than everything else even though it was a major problem in Dom I. What were you thinking? Limiting the super blood summons was good, but it's not limited enough. Still plenty of super combatant chassis to go around. Extra blood slaves can be used for "hordes from hell". HfH, by the way, is also going to be a major issue. Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How is blood magic easier and cheaper? The only nation in the demo you can possibly claim this about is Abysia. Abysia now has a warlock apprentice for 150 gold. The warlock apprentice is certainly not cheaper then a scout with a sanguine dowsing rod. The warlock apprentice is only recruitable in provinces with castles and labs. I fail to see how this is cheaper and easier, especially since you have in other Posts claimed that the new reduced gold incomes will make mages scarce. Also the big blood summons are more expensive. And a popular blood summon like Father Illearth is now singular.


Death magic was not changed. Death summons cost the same, and death mages can still summon skels. Any reason that elemental magic got crushed, but death comes through with no change?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Death summons where never as much of a problem as air and fire elementals, the death magic required for raise dead is primarily posessed by nations traditionally considered on the weak side, such as Ermor or Ctis.


Wrathful skies. Did I not make it clear that this spell is an issue in Dom I? It's going to be much worse in Dom II. Having an enemy air mage cloud trapeze into my army and blow it away with wrathful skies... not fun.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How will this be worse in dom 2 than dom 1? Because of the reduced efficiency of the wards? This is a step that most people seems happy about otherwise.


Almost all evocations got nerfed, however I predict that the classic quickness-orb lightning, will be back in force.

The Seithkona nether darts problem will also make a return.

Meanwhile most other evocations have become stunningly inaccurate. It brings new meaning to the phrase "can't hit the broadside of a barn". Mages can't hit AN ARMY that is standing out in front of them with a fireball. OK can't is too strong... can't hit 4 of 5 times. Spells like flying shards and fire flies are jaw dropping as they fan out across the entire length of the battlefield! Funny, yes... but not fun.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Evocations have not been nerfed, in fact precision above ten improves precision more than in dom 1. The source of your problem is the wider battlefield. The wider battlefield was introduced to make missile weapons more useful. Position your mages closer to the front if you want results similar to dom 1.



High taxes destroying population in droves while low taxes have no effect. A design choice that I just cannot support. And not fun.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I still think this is an excellent design choice.

various parts of the text snipped
There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Sorry that this post has become a bit of a rant. However the "feel" of Dom II is slow. The "low resouce model" exacerbates the problems with game imbalance since any issue means more since players have less.

Nobody was as big a Dominions fanboy as me, and I'm not upset because the system has changed. I am upset because I percieve that the system has changed for the worse.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The various other castles are now more viable than ever before, part of this is due to the reduced income increase of admin.

Your claim that any imbalance means more because players have less is at best to vague to judge and at worst downright false. If players have less they also have less to produce imbalances with. By your argument the richer the world in dom 1 the more balanced it would be, this might be true by virtue of special sites or indeps blurring the distinctions between different naions, other than that I do not think it is much to support the conclusion.

Many of the complaints you give as reasons why things have gotten worse are complaints that things have not changed. And some things that have obviously changed for the better, such as with bloodsummons, you claim they have changed for the worse. Sure there might be instances that could do with balancing, but as you make out your case you grossly overstate it.

[DominionsFan]

Johan....you should make some replies in some other threads as well...IE. AI threads etc.

[Nerfix]

BTW Apoger, did you notice that Abysians have less precision than normal humans?

Some spells have less precision like Blade Wind(and i like it this way) or Star Fires (which i don't like this way) and some spells could use more precision(few Blood spells).

[ November 02, 2003, 12:35: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[MStavros]

90% of the game will be about SCs. Just take a look at the pretender SC abuse.
Don't forget, we have many more problems other than these anyways.

[Taqwus]

HJ --

I seem to recall that the devs have stated that the sanguine dowsing rod no longer helps non-blood commanders find blood slaves (haven't checked this yet in the demo personally).

This will make it a LOT harder compared to Dom I to really get a blood economy rolling...

It used to be possible to hand out SDRs (cheap at 5 blood slaves, once you get a blood mage -- e.g. certain indies and magical sites provide them) to cheap commanders and harvest. The SDR would boost their base chance of finding slaves from something like 10% to something like 50% (!). And once you got started, more SDRs could be cranked out, and you could feed the machine with yet more cheap commanders.

Now you'll have to use genuine blood mages to do well in blood -- which means either having native mages, or getting quite a few relevant indys / sites, unless you relish empowering non-blood commanders at 50 slaves a pop.

[HJ]

Originally posted by Taqwus:

Now you'll have to use genuine blood mages to do well in blood -- which means either having native mages, or getting quite a few relevant indys / sites, unless you relish empowering non-blood commanders at 50 slaves a pop. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't see how this is different than empowering them in any other magic that you don't start with. You won't have the ability to find the right sites, and therefore will have a hard time getting the right gems to empower your mages. Random magic picks on native mages helps a lot as well, and you might get some blood mages.
The very similar thing applies for the blood slaves as well, the distinction being that once found the site will pump out the gems by itself, and here you need to dedicate a mage to do that. So you lose a mage to a dedicated service, but it ends up being the same thing, when you disregard the difference stemming from the fact that blood is inherently different from other magic school in general.

Thanks for the info.

[ November 03, 2003, 03:24: Message edited by: HJ ]

[Keir Maxwell]

I'm a reasonably experianced Dom I PBEM player and I have a very different take than the negative one expressed on this and other threads by some toher Dom I players.

1. I think you are seriously jumping the gun Alex. I read your Posts on the new bless effects being underpowered and you made some pretty firm statements - before you had seen the demo. Well I've played the demo and I think you owe someone a pizza with Anchovies - the bless effects are my biggest worry for being canidates as overpowered.

Don't decide what the game balence is like before you have seen the full game and played it awhile!

2. Stick with Dom I?? Err, aaah, do you remember target mages orders for archers? "We'll just get our flying observers to signal us angle of fire and velocity of release so that we can take out the mages somewhere in the back of that there huge army - got em!" Taking that out is a huge bonus for mages that few seem to have considered.

Thats just one of many, many improvements in game balence and play including dealing with the insane elemental summoning that nerfed many other forms of magic because they couldn't compete. To have increased the power of other magic so it could compete with the old uber magic would have ruined much of the game.

If the Dom II isn't a step forward for a Dom I player I would suggest they have been sucked into the world of Dom I and are criticising things just because they are different from Dom I.

3. Have you been trying out some of the new thematic possibilities? Race design has taken a huge leap forward with the addition of themes and bless effects. "Right I think I'll design a Jotun race which is going to win by bringing back the Ice Age before collapsing under its own decay setting off a new thawing" - finally I can do it.

4. The interface. I could not play single player Dom I beyond test bedding - to fussy. Now I can.

5. MP = early game supercombatents? Am I the only one who finds early game super combatents dieing left right and center when used carelessly? My "Back to the Ice Age" Jotun race has awesome early supercombatents and all it takes to kill one is a few lizards with pokey things! Sure they smash low damage dealers but I wouldn't have thought two handed weapons were a hard to achieve counter?

I would suggest starting MP games with each race having ~6 provinces and two Castles - I think you will find this will reward better balenced races as it reduces the fear of the early overrun which changes the whole meta game of race design.

6. Evocation. Johan seriously the fire magic thing is silly. Very silly - it makes mages look like clowns. I have given it a good go, cast many, many fireballs and if you are happy with the overall balence then please reduce the damage of evocation fire magic and increase the accuracy so we don't all feel so stupid using fire mages. Its just a really unfun/kill joy feature.

Guys lets not jump the boat because our favourite strategies have died and we are worried for the future - take some time and give it a good go.

As a race designer with a love of synergy I couldn't go back to Dom I. To me the increase in this area is a massive step forward as I though most Dom I races lacked synergy. The addition of the themes and bless effects creates many new possibilites for synergy.

Don't worry, be happy . . .

Keir

[MStavros]

I guess Alex has posted his experience with the demo. Correct me if I am wrong.

[ November 03, 2003, 09:20: Message edited by: MStavros ]

[Sammual]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
5. MP = early game supercombatents? Am I the only one who finds early game super combatents dieing left right and center when used carelessly? My "Back to the Ice Age" Jotun race has awesome early supercombatents and all it takes to kill one is a few lizards with pokey things! Sure they smash low damage dealers but I wouldn't have thought two handed weapons were a hard to achieve counter?

I would suggest starting MP games with each race having ~6 provinces and two Castles - I think you will find this will reward better balenced races as it reduces the fear of the early overrun which changes the whole meta game of race design.

6. Evocation. Johan seriously the fire magic thing is silly. Very silly - it makes mages look like clowns. I have given it a good go, cast many, many fireballs and if you are happy with the overall balence then please reduce the damage of evocation fire magic and increase the accuracy so we don't all feel so stupid using fire mages. Its just a really unfun/kill joy feature.

Guys lets not jump the boat because our favourite strategies have died and we are worried for the future - take some time and give it a good go.

As a race designer with a love of synergy I couldn't go back to Dom I. To me the increase in this area is a massive step forward as I though most Dom I races lacked synergy. The addition of the themes and bless effects creates many new possibilites for synergy.

Don't worry, be happy . . .

Keir <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with everything you said. #5 and #6 are important. I have yet to see a fire spell kill anything other than a LI.

When I first read about the bless effects and played with them I thought they were useless (Rainbow Mage, 4 Fire / 4 Nature / 4 Earth). Now that I have tried Water 9 / Nature 9 I have changed my story. As long as you go all out the bless effects can rock.

Sammual

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Particle:
IMHO the pretender SCs in MP won't be a problem. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">care to develop your argument? Everything prove the contrary, as already explained.

[Taqwus]

HJ -- A big difference is that blood is far less tied to magical sites than the rest; at least in Dom I, anyway, even the Damned Merchant (blood 1?, gives 1 slave/turn) was pretty rare. Hence you can't just conquer a province somebody else searched and get free slaves, normally. Nor can you find the sites with a handful of mages searching or casting divination spells, and reap blood income for free (i.e. no further action); your blood income is heavily tied to population and blood mages (since SDRs won't help as much). It's harder to get started, but it used to be easier to boost your capacity once you did get started so long as you had heavily populated provinces.

[apoger]

>I think you owe someone a pizza with Anchovies -

Ahem... that was in response to a specific warden versus flagellent fight. We will do the testing when the full game comes out and we have access to the flags.


>5. MP = early game supercombatents? Am I the only one who finds early game super combatents dieing left right and center when used carelessly? My "Back to the Ice Age" Jotun race has awesome early supercombatents and all it takes to kill one is a few lizards with pokey things! Sure they smash low damage dealers but I wouldn't have thought two handed weapons were a hard to achieve counter?

We obviously have different definitions of super combatant.


>I would suggest starting MP games with each race having ~6 provinces and two Castles - I think you will find this will reward better balenced races as it reduces the fear of the early overrun which changes the whole meta game of race design.

I have developed a scenario offering just such a theme. Check out Sunrays site for the download.

[ November 03, 2003, 15:37: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Pocus]

can been done with scripting, remind me the specifics? it was 35 wardens against 100 flags, and what magic levels should their gods get?

Taqwus : nicely explained. In doms I blood income would allow a nation to get increased blood income, because of a kind of snow balling effect (I had Abysia reaching between 150 and 200 slaves a turn in a MP game).

[apoger]

>can been done with scripting, remind me the specifics? it was 35 wardens against 100 flags, and what magic levels should their gods get?


It was 10 wardens backed by a god with nature-9
versus
35 flags backed by a god with fire-4 blood-6 (or potentially fire-9)

I'll get around to it eventually, but if you want to testbed it... fell free.

[ywl]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Are you honestly suggesting that the looks is the only thing that is improved in the game?

The looks and a few nice interface tweaks, such as the research pool.

Yup, that's it.

Beyond that is the gameplay, and frankly I think Dom I played better and was better balanced.


>As far as I can tell the replay speed, the scarcity of gold and its consequences is the only issue you have raised. Sure there might be balance issues in some cases but this was the case at the release of dom 1 as well.

Balance issues is putting it mildly.

Dom I was not about graphics or interface, obviously. What made Dom I great was a combination of incredible complexity and the balance between those complexities. In a game as massive as Dom I there were only a handfull of balance issues.

It seems that IW was intent on making pretenders more potent in Dom II. I have no issue with that. However instead of making pretenders more potent... you guys diminished the potency of near everything else. Taking such a backwards approach has thrown a giant monkey wrench into the games balance. I know that you don't see it, and many players here who aren't familiar with Dom I don't understand, but IMHO it's pretty clear.

Making resources scarce has ripples of effect through the game. It detracts from light troops. It makes it hard to build forts. It makes mages hard to afford. Making it hard to do stuff, is not fun.

Meanwhile players will be inspired to build super combatant pretenders. In multiplay, the whole game is going to be a festival of giant pretenders going on rampages. Hey, I'm one of the biggest abUsers of this sort of strategy, and even I think it's going to get out of control. I want to choose between hard choices and paths. The current system is destined for 'Super combatant face off', and that's not fun.

Blood magic was diminished less than everything else even though it was a major problem in Dom I. What were you thinking? Limiting the super blood summons was good, but it's not limited enough. Still plenty of super combatant chassis to go around. Extra blood slaves can be used for "hordes from hell". HfH, by the way, is also going to be a major issue. Blood magic was too easy and too cheap, and your response was to make it easier and cheaper? I simply do not understand.

Death magic was not changed. Death summons cost the same, and death mages can still summon skels. Any reason that elemental magic got crushed, but death comes through with no change?

Wrathful skies. Did I not make it clear that this spell is an issue in Dom I? It's going to be much worse in Dom II. Having an enemy air mage cloud trapeze into my army and blow it away with wrathful skies... not fun.

Almost all evocations got nerfed, however I predict that the classic quickness-orb lightning, will be back in force.

The Seithkona nether darts problem will also make a return.

Meanwhile most other evocations have become stunningly inaccurate. It brings new meaning to the phrase "can't hit the broadside of a barn". Mages can't hit AN ARMY that is standing out in front of them with a fireball. OK can't is too strong... can't hit 4 of 5 times. Spells like flying shards and fire flies are jaw dropping as they fan out across the entire length of the battlefield! Funny, yes... but not fun.

High taxes destroying population in droves while low taxes have no effect. A design choice that I just cannot support. And not fun.

While the new interface is better than Dom I, it isn't very good. Certainly not up to standards set by other full priced games. If the game cost $30 then I wouldn't complain, but if you are charging big league prices then you get big league criticism. "It sucks less than Dom I" is not the same as "it's great!". The current Dom II interface is clunky and non-intuitive.

There's still no reason to take a fort other than wizards tower or fortified city.

Sorry that this post has become a bit of a rant. However the "feel" of Dom II is slow. The "low resouce model" exacerbates the problems with game imbalance since any issue means more since players have less.

Nobody was as big a Dominions fanboy as me, and I'm not upset because the system has changed. I am upset because I percieve that the system has changed for the worse.

It's not just me. I have a friend that cancelled his order after seeing the demo (and not becuase of input from me). My sizable gaming group who are all huge Dom I fans, are seriously questioning whether we should get involved with Dom II.

When push comes to shove, the gameplay of the demo is just not as much fun as the gameplay of Dom I, and I can see trends that will make it worse. Right now in the euphoria surrounding the better graphics and new release, players are being forgiving of the gameplay. When things calm down a bit, they will start to concentrate on game issues, and they will not be as happy as the Dom I community.

Again sorry for the rant, I should have written a more coherent essay. However since I spewed this, I might as well post it. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

A lot of the disagreements so far are different focuses of the game. Some people like more basic infantries; some like mages; some like powerful gods; some hate SC while others regard them as a part of the game. Give the developers a break, there is no way to please everybody. And they have their vision to the game too. The only choice is option to disable some of the spells, and limit research below a certain level.

My opinions on some of the points:
1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed? And as the other said, if you want more gold, raise the richness of the map. Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance. If you think that 200% taxation and build the most units is the right kind of game, you're allowed to do so. But it's a matter of personal taste.

2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed? To me, things have improved. Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable. Moloch cannot give you free devils. Both Moloch and Wyrm now look a bit overpriced but I guess somebody is going to prove me wrong soon. The dragons now might be the all purpose bargain pretenders but they can be killed. The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, and to a lesser extent the Statues and Monolith. They're disruptive because they're spoiler which destroy the prospect of one opponent without adding too much to yourselves. They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels. Blood slaves are harder to get because of the requirement of blood mages to collect slaves. Ice Devils need 55 instead of 30, level 5 instead of 4. Horde from Hell needs 30 instead of 20. Father Illearth is now a level 7 spell. Even the wimpy Dark Vines are moved from level 3 to 5. And no more Pazuzu util level 9. Is it not far enough? I don't think anybody know until we've played the full-game for a few months. Especially when now, both nature (better Treelords, Tarrasque), death (various Tartarian Spirits) and astral (Juggernut) get their super-conjurations now.

4) Death Magic. I guess your complaint is because "Raise Skeleton" and "Raise Deads" don't need gems while the Summon Lesser Elemental do? Nobody has complained these two spells over-powered in Dom 1. Death was weak in Dom 1 - I think Dom 2 has improved on that. Is it too far? We'll have to see how people use it in a full game.

5) Evocation. I don't see the problem yet. Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1. Mages teleporting into a province and demolishing a whole army has always been there in Dom 1. Some people love it though you're free to find such tactic unfun. What are your suggestions for game play? Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun. You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

[apoger]

>Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.


>Give the developers a break

I'll give them a break when they give me a price break on my purchase. Fair enough?


>1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed?

You haven't looked closely then.


>Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance.

Order is 7%... for those that are paying attention.

In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.

See a difference yet?


>2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed?


The cost of everything besides the pretenders. This effectively makes the pretenders vastly more potent.

That's what has changed.


>Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable.

A bit, yes.


>The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

That's the only problem you have seen?
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of combinations that are just as bad if not worse.


>The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, <snip>
>They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

No, the Sphinx is back in all it's cheesy glory.


>3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels.


No they are not more expensive!!!!

Blood summons were only raised 50% in cost while other economies were increased MORE. In effect blood summons have been made cheaper.

I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.


>Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1.

In what way?
I see thunder ward gone. No easy defense (and it wasn't easy for most to begin with).

If anything it's much more deadly.


>Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

It's more than a trick. It's too potent.


>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

Not even in the same universe as nether darts.

[johan osterman]

The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">HOORJAY!

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by apoger:
Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

It's more than a trick. It's too potent.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it's way too potent - insanely powerful. But weaker than Dominions 1, since mages now just kinda shoot up in the air like a sprinkler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

So - nether darts is overpowered, but you can't claim that as a reason Dominions 2 is worse.

ywl:
My opinions on some of the points:
1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed? And as the other said, if you want more gold, raise the richness of the map.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again... raising richness increases resource production, greatly altering the game balance. This would be a viable suggestion if gold richness and resource richness could be set independantly, and with finer granularity than low-med-high.

-Cherry

[apoger]

>The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Really? Tell that to my Last few dozen Sphinx's.
Might want to look into that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 03, 2003, 18:23: Message edited by: apoger ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by apoger:
>The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Really? Tell that to my Last few dozen Sphinx's.
Might want to look into that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, ok.

Edit: I checked, you are right. I had the strongest recollection of it being changed.

[ November 03, 2003, 18:49: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[ywl]

>>Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

>So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.

Your comment is trollish, or as the other had said, jumping the gun before seeing the whole game. I don't mean that you're a troll (a faithless backstabber who keep winning the game, maybe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Trollish because of there were a lot of complaints without much constructive criticism. You also expected the game to follow a certain way and therefore complained a lot of aspects wouldn't be as fun. You're totally entitled to your opinion, but I guess some of us are quite thrilled to see the high power magic-fest.

But let's not call each other's name.

>>Give the developers a break

>I'll give them a break when they give me a price break on my purchase. Fair enough?

A fair complaint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed?

> You haven't looked closely then.

As close as my ability limit me to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>>Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance.

>Order is 7%... for those that are paying attention.

I saw two numbers on the board. One said 7%, the other said 10%.

>In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

>In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

>That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.

>See a difference yet?


I don't think Castle admin add to tax income, only resource? Am I right?

If I'm right, it's 21% + 18% (39%?) - (growth and productivity add 3% each level?) versus 30 + 30% (60%). Assuming your base income is 3000 gold by turn 30, it would be 4800 vs 4170. Big enough but I don't see it very significant - could be my play style.

>>2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed?

>The cost of everything besides the pretenders. This effectively makes the pretenders vastly more potent.

>That's what has changed.

For a MP game, you can raise the richness of the world. Increase the site frequency. Or give everybody a few starting provinces. You need to tweak the game settings to your flavor and find like-minded people but I don't see that a fundamental fault of the game.

But if you like the patrolling routine, then we'll need to persuade the developers to allow adjustment of population loss. Harder but not imposssible.

>Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable.

>A bit, yes.

>The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

>That's the only problem you have seen?
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of combinations that are just as bad if not worse.

Show me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

I was limiting to the amount of gems you could get from your capital site. So, no boot to most except for Ulm and Vanheim. Great Mother is usable but her fatique will be quite high after a few turns. PoD is undead and can abuse his melee advantages easily. It's before turn 10. So I'm limiting to only one magic path, below level 4.

The cost of the pretender I used was less than 100 points. If you invested enough in your pretender, of course he will be powerful. But that's a conscious and risky choice of stratgy, not an abuse. People can of course use a Titan with water and air, but they're doing it at their own risk. We all know how risky it is to put all the eggs into one basket.

Yes, I understand that you don't like too much emphasis being put on the pretenders, any suggestions that can allow the game to accomodate both sides of the spectrum? An option to double the cost of all points related to pretender power?

>>The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, <snip>
>They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

>No, the Sphinx is back in all it's cheesy glory.

I don't see that.

Sphinx is expensive and limited (one misc item only now). You can't even use it to break a seige!!

You can totally decapitate a player in the early game. A good and intimidating move but you're asking for diplomatic trouble that way. Moreover, unless you put more magic on it, a Sphinx doesn't kill fast enough with Astral and (incredible it may sound) it doesn't really qualify as a super-combatant to me. If he has more magic, any death will be the loss of a lot of points, which is especially probable as a Sphinx can't retreat.

But of course, all of these are related to my preferrence of game strategy. Your mileage could be very different.

>>3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels.

>No they are not more expensive!!!!

>Blood summons were only raised 50% in cost while other economies were increased MORE. In effect blood summons have been made cheaper.

I don't see that.

Gem economy in general is not more expensive. It's less affordable to hire mages. But it will be the same as Blood hunters.

Gold economy is worse (though it's around 20 to 30% worse in my calculation). That's everybody agrees on. It's just some people hate it, some love it, some find it tweakable and tolerable.

>I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.

Not in a sarchastic way - I can't wait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>>Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1.

>In what way?
>I see thunder ward gone. No easy defense (and it wasn't easy for most to begin with).

>If anything it's much more deadly.

It's there. Now you need only Air 2. You mean it only starts at 50%? And thus detrimental to game balance? May be. But I'll have to wait and see.

BTW, does anybody know whether higher level mages get higher resistance while casting the ward spells?

>>Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

>It's more than a trick. It's too potent.

>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

>Not even in the same universe as nether darts.

"Flame Eruption" is more powerful and at a lower level than "Nether Dart". Some nations have very dispensible mages to use them. They have short range - their only limitation.

"Astra Fire" is not as potent but cheap and of a lower level.

And the "Wrathful sky" you've mentioned.

There are other killer spells. I don't see them anywhere worse them the "Darts". Even "Rain of Stone" is quite useful as long as you have somebody with high enough hp to use it.

"Nether Darters" are also very vulnerable to "Mind Duel". You can also counter it by increasing the MR of your troops. It's powerful but it's a level 7 spell.

If you don't like high-power army-devastating spells in general, that is another discussion. That'll involved putting in some options to tone down magic in the game. Not a bad idea at all. How do you want to implement it?

[Pocus]

thats my part of the comments, which go either in the direction of Alex arguments, or in the opposite:

- combat pretenders are more powerful in doms II that they were in doms I, because they didnt change, but as gold income is reduced by a factor of 2 (a bit more actually, see below), they gain advantage relatively. A doms II nations with a combat pretender will develop way faster than a nation without (Alex got 36 provinces by turn 20 with a dragon, I got 18, just the half, with a rainbow mage, same settings. Ok it can just mean I'm really bad in this game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ).

- The highest gold income in doms II is 250 gp in your capital. You cant really count on doubling that by patrolling, as several mechanisms concur into making the idea a really bad one (more unrest, and big decrease in pop). Compared to doms I, where you could patrol easily your capital, and reach nearly 600 gp a turn.

- non blood nations gained some big summons, but as only blood nations can really hope to get and hold demons princes, the situation has not so clearly changed in favor of one of the two clans. Blood harvest is more difficult, but from my experience, when you succeed, you get more slaves, so the situation is not that clear.

- nether darts are not * that * overpowered. To be correct, nether darts are not overpowered when you have an anti magic ward, as the damage need a MR check. Lamias with AM ward dont need to fear the darts, eg.
Also the larger battlefield is rather detrimental to accuracy (fireball and flare have lost much of their interest by the way).

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by apoger:
>The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Really? Tell that to my Last few dozen Sphinx's.
Might want to look into that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, ok.

Edit: I checked, you are right. I had the strongest recollection of it being changed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, so they can still teleports?
Is this getting changed in some patch or not?

[Pocus]

Originally posted by ywl:
I don't think Castle admin add to tax income, only resource? Am I right?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">admin add to tax. full admin in doms I, half admin in doms II.


If I'm right, it's 21% + 18% (39%?) - (growth and productivity add 3% each level?) versus 30 + 30% (60%). Assuming your base income is 3000 gold by turn 30, it would be 4800 vs 4170. Big enough but I don't see it very significant - could be my play style.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the formula has not changed, and is :

admin * scale bonus * tax rate

in doms I without patrolling it gives :
1.5 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 2.535
380 gold for 30000 pop capital
with patrolling (order dont increase max gold output):
1.5 * 1.3 * 2.0 = 3.9
585 gold for 30000 pop capital

in doms II, without patrolling (hey sure!) :
1.25 * 1.33 = 1.6625
249 gold for 30000 pop capital

and thats it : 249 gold versus 580. In these 580, you need to recoup the draft cost of patrollers, and pay there upkeep though. Significant, but 50 archers cost only 25 gold in upkeep, and 400 gold to buy.

So the ratio is that you have half the gold of doms I in doms II (for the capital).

[apoger]

>I don't think Castle admin add to tax income, only resource? Am I right?

No.

Admin in Dom I added in as a direct bonus. In Dom II it adds 50% of the bonus.


> a Sphinx doesn't kill fast enough with Astral

Almost all my Sphinx's use fire and/or water in order to get fire shield and/or breath of winter. You can have both up at the same time BTW. It kills troops plenty fast, and the ability to teleport into and deal with the biggest enemy threat before it can move, is huge.


>I see thunder ward gone.
>It's there. Now you need only Air 2. You mean it only starts at 50%? And thus detrimental to game balance? May be. But I'll have to wait and see.

Not only partial defense, but it only affects a handful of troops. It's not good enough to defend an army from wrathful skies.


>>Seithkona nether darts
>It's more than a trick. It's too potent.
>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

It's more than "nether darts".
It's seithkona-nether darts.

The siethkona are incredibly cheap and are very available. The combo is simple and cost effective. That's what makes it better than other spells.

Astral fire isn't something that any mass produced mages can cast.

Flame eruption requires very close range. In Dom II this is much harder to get since armies start farther away from each other.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Uh, so they can still teleports?
Is this getting changed in some patch or not? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It most likely will. We were all surprised to find that it hadn't been implemented.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Welcome to our club, partner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The 7% for order in D2 is more important than the 10% in D1. In D1 any province that could pay for its patrols in 3-4 turns got them asap and taxes were upped to 200%, even if that meant decreasing the pop there. As a result you didn't get these 10% extra gold from order from these provinces, and combined they often contributed for 75+% to your total income. True, with high order you needed less patrollers, say an extra initial 160 gold investment for order 0 (compared to order +3) and 11 gold more upkeep in every subsequent turn - but these extra costs didn't come close to these "lost" 30% from order +3.

I must say I like the D2 economics better. In D1 everyone - maybe even you - thought this patrol trick was bothersome and silly. Everyone felt compelled to pick growth +3 and order +3 for the extra gold, almost disregarding the increased productivity and growth - dumb. Everyone felt compelled to pick a 35+ admin castle for the same reason - dumb. Now that there are less no-brainers, we have more choices, and that's good. The only problem is the costs of units and leaders should have been scaled down to fit the new economics.

BTW, am I the only one to patrol my capital and raise taxes to 200% when I have idle troops there? I've never been so rich in D2 than when I tried turmoil +3/luck +3 and started to slaughter my commoners with all the free militia I got. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm eagerly waiting for it.

[ywl]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by apoger:
So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Welcome to our club, partner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey!! I said the comment is trollish!! Not that AP is a troll - there is some subtle difference!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Anyway - if AP found that comment offending, I apologize http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .


BTW, am I the only one to patrol my capital and raise taxes to 200% when I have idle troops there? I've never been so rich in D2 than when I tried turmoil +3/luck +3 and started to slaughter my commoners with all the free militia I got. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do have the suspicion that with turnmoil+3 / luck+3, you'll get more income from random events than the shortcomings from the tax penalty. If you could compensate the 20-40% shortfall with patrol, it might be an interesting strategy. Say, if you use C'its with the Desert Tomb theme, you might be able to compensate with the undeads later in the game - yes, I better stop before I stop ranting incoherently.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
>I think you owe someone a pizza with Anchovies -

Ahem... that was in response to a specific warden versus flagellent fight. We will do the testing when the full game comes out and we have access to the flags.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might want to read back on that one Alex. While I may have misread it my understanding was your argument was that bless effects weren't going to make into MP except perhaps with Flagellents.

[/QUOTE][/QB]
>5. MP = early game supercombatents? Am I the only one who finds early game super combatents dieing left right and center when used carelessly? My "Back to the Ice Age" Jotun race has awesome early supercombatents and all it takes to kill one is a few lizards with pokey things! Sure they smash low damage dealers but I wouldn't have thought two handed weapons were a hard to achieve counter?

We obviously have different definitions of super combatant. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Thats rude Alex. I have read through many of your Posts in the Last few days and taken them seriously and tested your statements because I respect your opinion. If you are going to blow me off with vague throw offs after I have attempted to make a reasoned argument I'm left wondering why you are in such a bad mood and why have you given up on reason all of the sudden?

In know what a SC is Alex - you taught me!

Please Alex pull back from your grump and discuss because as yet you haven't given much backing/detail at all to your claims and I, and others, need to hear examples of the SC's you are talking about. Otherwise you are responding to me like I'm just to stupid to play this game properly so you can't even be bothered explaining your view.

Keir

[ywl]

Originally posted by Pocus:
the formula has not changed, and is :

admin * scale bonus * tax rate

in doms I without patrolling it gives :
1.5 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 2.535
380 gold for 30000 pop capital
with patrolling (order dont increase max gold output):
1.5 * 1.3 * 2.0 = 3.9
585 gold for 30000 pop capital

in doms II, without patrolling (hey sure!) :
1.25 * 1.33 = 1.6625
249 gold for 30000 pop capital

and thats it : 249 gold versus 580. In these 580, you need to recoup the draft cost of patrollers, and pay there upkeep though. Significant, but 50 archers cost only 25 gold in upkeep, and 400 gold to buy.

So the ratio is that you have half the gold of doms I in doms II (for the capital). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for all the glory details http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I guess why I didn't pay enough attention is more I tolerate the new math better - or I regard that some change of parameter of a problem to be solved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . But the original argument still stands, you can always double the richness. Or as another suggested, another improvement will be to seperate the Gold and Resource settings and allow finer tune.

I also find the new "Order" scale forces me to make some painful (but good for gameplay) tradeoff. To raise income, I need order but I'll have less beneficial random events. Some of these events are very significant, I've got a Lore Master and a Stalker (the ethereal assassain). I hate to lose them because of a +3 order http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

[DominionsFan]

admin * scale bonus * tax rate

in doms II, without patrolling (hey sure!) :
1.25 * 1.33 = 1.6625
249 gold for 30000 pop capital <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hold on! If I will change the tax rate, the income won't change??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[apoger]

>I do have the suspicion that with turnmoil+3 / luck+3, you'll get more income from random events than the shortcomings from the tax penalty. If you could compensate the 20-40% shortfall with patrol, it might be an interesting strategy.


That's one of the first things I tested when I got the demo. No such luck (no pun intended). You can't make up the shortfall with a turmoil-luck strategy.

The potency of the luck stat seems to have gone down. Particularly if you take order, which is almost a given in the low gold enviornment.

[Kristoffer O]

Income will surely change, but some of your loyal subjects will have to face the winter without food, as you are taking it to pay your growing armies and greedy wizards. Add patrolling armies that hunt down complaining farmers, killing their revolting kids, raping their daughters to keep the unruly in line and you have an additional bunch dead peasants. After a while you have fewer farmers to pay your taxes.

To sum up: Players dislike evil men and if they would raise taxes they would be evil, so they try to be nice, at least to their own people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Therefore there are fewer players that would consider raising taxes. It is nice to have a community of morally correct people.

We count on the same moral standards to keep blood magic and necromancy from being widely used http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Pocus]

Originally posted by ywl:
But the original argument still stands, you can always double the richness.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you know as me that the standard settings will be more often than not adopted in PBEM.


Or as another suggested, another improvement will be to seperate the Gold and Resource settings and allow finer tune.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes I would like that, I think it is SC which posted (as in Saber Cherry, not Super Combattant...). Otherwise, with so much resources, the bias versus heavy units would be even greater. So rich settings ok, but only for gold then.


I also find the new "Order" scale forces me to make some painful (but good for gameplay) tradeoff. To raise income, I need order but I'll have less beneficial random events. Some of these events are very significant, I've got a Lore Master and a Stalker (the ethereal assassain). I hate to lose them because of a +3 order http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif . <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quite true, some events are really crunchy. I got a visit from an astral council too.

[ November 03, 2003, 20:42: Message edited by: Pocus ]

[Pocus]

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">admin * scale bonus * tax rate

in doms II, without patrolling (hey sure!) :
1.25 * 1.33 = 1.6625
249 gold for 30000 pop capital <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hold on! If I will change the tax rate, the income won't change??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes it will change, but you will pay direly the cost, so in essence, it is not viable to fiddle with the tax rates on the long term. This is why I didnt care to post how a 200 % taxed province churn in doms II.

There is case where you want to tax at 200%, like being at bay, or depriving an enemy of the income of a soon to be lost province, but thats another matter.

[apoger]

>While I may have misread it my understanding was your argument was that bless effects weren't going to make into MP except perhaps with Flagellents.

My argument back then was that I didn't see how the bless effects were going to be competitive, but that I'd wait for the game to come out before judging.

The flagellents discussion was that they are more efficient for the blesses, which is something I still believe.

The "pizza bet" was about a specific battle between wardens and flags.


>We obviously have different definitions of super combatant.

>Thats rude Alex.

You are taking offense where none was meant.
You said "all it takes to kill one is a few lizards with pokey things!".
Super combatants don't die to a few lizards with pokey things. Not what I call super combatants. Hence we must have different definitions.


>Please Alex pull back from your grump and discuss because as yet you haven't given much backing/detail at all to your claims and I, and others, need to hear examples of the SC's you are talking about. Otherwise you are responding to me like I'm just to stupid to play this game properly so you can't even be bothered explaining your view.

My apologies if I appear grumpy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I have offered examples of super combatants in a few places on these forums.

Perhaps I'll write up a new essay on a bunch of different designs. In the meantime I pasted a Manticore SC design to the thread "Second class super combatants" just a few hours ago. Check it out there.

[ywl]

> a Sphinx doesn't kill fast enough with Astral

>Almost all my Sphinx's use fire and/or water in order to get fire shield and/or breath of winter. You can have both up at the same time BTW. It kills troops plenty fast, and the ability to teleport into and deal with the biggest enemy threat before it can move, is huge.

An Sphinx with 6 Astral and 3 water will be 238. Affordable but still expensive. You do expect a pretender of that cost worth its dime, right? Teleport is good but that's just the benefit of Astral. If it's too powerful, will raising the point cost of Sphinx 150 suffix? It's fixable.

>I see thunder ward gone.
>>It's there. Now you need only Air 2. You mean it only starts at 50%? And thus detrimental to game balance? May be. But I'll have to wait and see.

>Not only partial defense, but it only affects a handful of troops. It's not good enough to defend an army from wrathful skies.

True.

But if you argued from the other side, mages are now more expensive and less dispensible, storm no longer stop archers. Arrow Fend is not 100% (and never was) neither, right? My inclination is to wait and see how it turns out in the full game.

You can use this trick with an Air pretender. But then we will go back to the old arguments how much weights of the Pretenders or Scale Economy to the gameplay should be - it's better to be changeble as some game options.

>>Seithkona nether darts
>It's more than a trick. It's too potent.
>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

>It's more than "nether darts".
>It's seithkona-nether darts.

>The siethkona are incredibly cheap and are very available. The combo is simple and cost effective. That's what makes it better than other spells.

This might be true.

I won't mind just Siethkona-Nether Dart alone. But with the new blessing effects on Woodmen and the wonderful new Woodman scouts, their extra national points, Jotun might become one of the most powerful nations.

One possibility is to limit Seithkona to capital only, like similar mages for Abysia. But again, the whole balancing issue need to tested in full MP games.

>Astral fire isn't something that any mass produced mages can cast.

>Flame eruption requires very close range. In Dom II this is much harder to get since armies start farther away from each other.

But Flame eruption is even more disruptive than nether darts. In theory, you could put the mages at the frontline and have a few hold commands for their guards, It works very well in Dom 1. But of course, most Fire mages are not as cheap as the Seithkona.

I need to test how well the spell AI handle the extra distance in Dom 2. Have anybody tried?

BTW, joke aside, nobody should complain Fire magic sucks because of how lousy the spell Fireball is. The true power of Fire evocation spells are at "Falling Fire" and "Flame Eruption". IMHO, Fireball is only level 3 and thus appropriately a low power spell. If you want to toast somebody, stick your mages near the frontline and see them use "Flame Eruption" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[ywl]

Originally posted by Pocus:

yes I would like that, I think it is SC which posted (as in Saber Cherry, not Super Combattant...). Otherwise, with so much resources, the bias versus heavy units would be even greater. So rich settings ok, but only for gold then.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As a mind excercise, I am pondering the mobility problem of HI. I'm not sure the HI is as good as it looks.

I found being only able to move one province on the strategic map per turn is a sever handicap. On the Eye map, I got stabbed hard by AI as Abysia because my HI couldn't move to save my province in time.

So, launch raid into your enemies' territory with light troops, plunder and leave before their HI catch up, might now a possible tactics.

But of course, they could try to crush you like a bug with their HI - if they still have enough gold to sustain them. I wonder how it'll work out in a real game.

At least, the mobility issue will give an incentive to use Hypaspist over the Hoplite.

[Particle]

IMHO the pretender SCs in MP won't be a problem. It is not a problem in SP at all. If you don't want to abuse the AI, than do not do it. Simple. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:

>We obviously have different definitions of super combatant.

>Thats rude Alex.

You are taking offense where none was meant.
You said "all it takes to kill one is a few lizards with pokey things!".
Super combatants don't die to a few lizards with pokey things. Not what I call super combatants. Hence we must have different definitions.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is a better explanation as it gives me something to reply to.

I sent a Jotun Gode with a Niefel Giant against a province of ~20 Lizards with tridents and one Shaman. Pretender Earth Mother with Earth 9, Nature 9 so the Niefel giant gets +4 prot, berserk 3, reinvigoration 4 and regeneration. I was inside my dominion - neighbouring my home province. The Giant died very quickly (they either do that or live generally). The Gode retreated.

Perhaps you would argue that the enhanced Niefel Giant doesn't qualify as an early game supercombatent but I think thats hard to maintain - sure there are better and who better than you to design one.


>Please Alex pull back from your grump and discuss because as yet you haven't given much backing/detail at all to your claims and I, and others, need to hear examples of the SC's you are talking about. Otherwise you are responding to me like I'm just to stupid to play this game properly so you can't even be bothered explaining your view.

My apologies if I appear grumpy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have been short with well meaning people which suprised me. But I figure you are much closer to Dom I than I and thus losing alot more - for there is a real loss involved here to me.

Anyway thanks for the smiley. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


I have offered examples of super combatants in a few places on these forums.

Perhaps I'll write up a new essay on a bunch of different designs. In the meantime I pasted a Manticore SC design to the thread "Second class super combatants" just a few hours ago. Check it out there. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I will and respond. Thanks for geting into the details as I find many of the general statements being used confusing. Lacking details its hard for me to accept the opinion of someone whose experiance, on the surface at least, contradicts mine.

In the mean time are you sure you want to write an essay on SC's? People seem to be doing alright without to much encouragement http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Perhaps an essay on races using basic troops as the basis for rapid expansion - this is always a useful thing to have.

I have always used early game killer armies very effectively and I shy away from pretender SC's as I'm not prepared to accept the risk involved. I like to try to win through consistent execution of a whole game strategy not blundering over the top of someone while praying they don't have "the counter." So far I have found this a perfectly viable approach to Dominions and I'm not convinced its going out the door with Dom II.

Don't worry, be happy . . .

Keir

[apoger]

>Perhaps an essay on races using basic troops as the basis for rapid expansion - this is always a useful thing to have.


In that vein;

For C'tis check out
1 Lizard King - casting fanaticism
73 Light Infantry - yes the lizard LI! Orders to fire at closest.
2 Sacred Serpent - In seperate squad behind the LI square. Orders to attack closest. Do not add them to the infantry or they will fail to toss javelins.

While they do take losses, this squad can do some serious damage. Sometimes the simple things are effective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you anticipate human players, add in a Shaman and have him cast 'curse'. That can ruin a super combatants day.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:

Sometimes the simple things are effective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you anticipate human players, add in a Shaman and have him cast 'curse'. That can ruin a super combatants day. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great to read of a effective LI based method of expansion - and with an easily accesible SC counter.

Now if only I'd stop spending so much time on this board I might get some experimenting of my own done plus give your chuckers a go. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

cheers

Keir

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Perhaps an essay on races using basic troops as the basis for rapid expansion - this is always a useful thing to have.


In that vein;

For C'tis check out
1 Lizard King - casting fanaticism
73 Light Infantry - yes the lizard LI! Orders to fire at closest.
2 Sacred Serpent - In seperate squad behind the LI square. Orders to attack closest. Do not add them to the infantry or they will fail to toss javelins.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Close enough to what I used in my Last C'tis test:

1 Commander + 1 Sacred Serpent as bodyguard - stay behind troops.
up to 24 (avg 15) Swamp Guards - forward, center, hold & attack closest.

1 Lizard King - rear corner, fanaticism.
up to 75 LI - forward (a few paces behind the HI), left flank, fire closest. When the LK gains his first star, split in 2 LI ~50-strong LI squads and put one on each flank.

When facing mass crossbows, leave the Swamp Guards in the rear, replace them with skeletons if available.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by apoger:
For C'tis check out
1 Lizard King - casting fanaticism
73 Light Infantry - yes the lizard LI! Orders to fire at closest.
2 Sacred Serpent - In seperate squad behind the LI square. Orders to attack closest. Do not add them to the infantry or they will fail to toss javelins.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A similar tactic works well for Machaka. Actually, you don't have much choice considering all the 2 protection Javelin tossers you start with. ;-)