So far what nations look strong... and weak? [Archive]

Joonie73

November 18th, 2003, 07:08 AM

But they are still ugly squid-looking thingies, LOL.

I met Illithids with Ulm and got my templars wasted as well. But I re-designed my pretender to go up to 6 astral (giving my templars +2 magic resistance) and then there the Illithids were less of a problem. But mass mind bLast could still be problematic.

Originally posted by Potatoman:
I just finished a game playing R'leyh and it seemed like they were UNBELIVEABLY powerful. Illithids are vastly improved- I destroyed Mictlan's pretender titan (gold shield male Version), a priest king, 10 slaves and 13 warriors with a force of just 5 illithids and 17 hybrid troopers (the smaller ones with high morale and really low resource cost)! Each turn mictlan basicly lost 5 of its highest hp warriors until only slaves were left, which promptly routed. Possibly the ultimate counter to early game SCs.

Also, has anyone checked out some of the INSANE monsters they can summon using void gate? I just popped out a Vastness on turn 40... Good lord. It's a freaking monster! It moves anywhere it wants, is pretty much impossible to kill and causes enemy troops to die merely by being near them. AWESOME! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

To be fair, there are a lot of junk monsters that your mages can summon as well (those immobile tentacle plants, for example). But the Vastness is just... WOW. It's like a demon lord, but free, and faster. To be fair, my dominion was luck 3 and the hero void searching was exp. level 9, so its not probable that you'd turn up a Vastness early in the game and cruise to a cinch victory.

Still, R'leyh seems amazing.

Nerfix

November 18th, 2003, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
I just finished a game playing R'leyh and it seemed like they were UNBELIVEABLY powerful.

>happily snippin' some text<

Still, R'leyh seems amazing. So they no longer get owned by Atlantis?

PvK

November 18th, 2003, 08:00 AM

I have a demo game as Arco where I started out weak on purpose, and have been slowly losing to Marignon AI. My pretender died trying to trample a squad of a dozen crossbowmen who wouldn't rout, and he was sort of a rainbow pretender, who now has essentially zero magic. Is there a strength to Arco that I might not have noticed? I'm planning to continue the game in the full Version once it arrives (should be later this week), but as it is, I'm starting to consider building a fortress to block Marignon and then trying to expand under water to avoid having to fight them until I can come up with something better than Arco units to fight with. I'm also considering empowering an Astrologer or some such instead of my pretender, since they now have more magic than my pretender. It should be challenging, anyway, but any Arco hints would be appreciated. Arco seems to have trouble with an enemy who, like Marignon, fields crossbows and heavy cavalry on the flanks (which steamroller chariots or light cav that might go for their crossbowmen).

PvK

apoger

November 18th, 2003, 08:25 AM

There are MANY nations and sub-themes, and the game is new. It's going to take a while to get a solid grip on what's good and bad.

That said... this is my gut reaction to the major nations/themes;

Abysia - Slow starter, but good endgame. Blood magic ramps up nice. Don't underestimate the Warlocks.

Abysia, Blood of Humans - Weak. I don't like it. The full game doesn't seem to be enforcing scales like the demo. A change between Versions? Even so, there's nothing that gets my attention.

Atlantis - Like the defense of starting underwater. Like the Dagon. Good magics. A strong nation from start to finish.

Pythium - Good troops and good magic. Even without "Gateway V.1" Pythium still has lots of what it takes to win, and no real weakness.

Pythium, Serpent Cult - The Hydra's can be abused with the new bless effects. However the magics are weak. I don't like having all eggs in one basket. It's got power, but weakness as well. Not as good as regular Pythium. IMHO.

Man - Good fast expansion. Nice spells. Crones still rock. Stronger than Dom1. Now a real contender.

Man, Last of the Tuatha - Not bad, but I like the crones better than the Tuatha mage selection.

Ulm - Was second rate in Dom1 and may be thrid rate in Dom2. Smiths now very weak. Total lack of ability to handle super combants will make life hard on multiplayer Ulm.

C'tis - Death magic not hammered as bad as other paths. C'tis comes out way ahead compared to Dom1. More complex than some other nations, but there is potency in the Dom2 lizards.

C'tis, Desert Tombs - The theme is expensive. Takes a bit too long to ramp up the free summons. I think I could do better undead work using the Sauromancers from regular C'tis. It's a cute theme, and it might have a place in low resource scenarios... but in general I'd say it's not a top competitor.

C'tis, Miasma - I don't like the mashmaster. The disease effect isn't strong enough to matter much. I prefer the regular theme.

Arcoscephale - Good troops. Elephants rock. Good magic. Always a contender.

Caelum - Mammoths rock. Even without air elementals, the high seraphs are great. The mobility of the flyers will be stronger than in Dom1 due to the slower strategic moves of many enemy troops. Some weakness versus super combatants, however the sheer speed of Caelum may make it a terror in multiplayer.

Caelum, Return of the Raptors - I don't like losing air magic in favor of a tidbit of death magic. I don't see any real advantage in this theme over the regular caelum. The Raven Guard are nice, but not enough to convice me to drop the air magic.

Ermor, Broken Empire - This is a meaty theme! It's got good troops. It's got evil priests summoning undead. Very playable.

Ermor, Ashen Empire - I.E. DomI Ermor. This Ermor's dominion always attracts heat in multiplayer. In Dom1 Ermor could field a serious super combatant when others couldn't imagine doing the same. Now it's not so unique. Also the new bless/sacred system will encourage players to have lots of priest power floating around. I don't like Ashen Empire for multiplayer. It's great for single play, as the computer AI can't handle the deadly dominion.

Ermor, Soul Gate - So far this looks similar to Ashen Empire, just using incorporeal undead instead of skeltons/zombies. If someone can find a reason for this theme... let me know.

Marignon - All things considered I think Marignon is stronger in Dom2. Not hugely, but enough. It's good, but not great.

Marignon, Diabolical Faith - I don't like that it requires a minium Turmoil +1 and Heat +1. The access to blood magic is sweet, but the economic hardship is rough. I'll pass on this theme.

Marignon, Fires of Faith - Heat +1, yuk. Just to get the effect of a level-1 priest preaching in your provinces? Is there something that I'm missing? Doesn't work for me.

Pangaea - Weaker troops but much better magic. This looks to be pretty dedicated to the maenad theme. Could be OK. Doesn't leap out at me.

Pangaea, Carrion Woods - Pumping carrion creatures is about as effective as the meanad theme. Better quality, fewer numbers. It's alright.

Pangaea, New Era - Stronger troops, but less magic than other Pangaean themes. Very nice ground pounders. Some weakness versus super combatants. Not quite a top contender, but solid.

Vanheim - Loss of lesser air elementals hurt Vanhiem more than others air Users. Valks fly. It's got air and earth magic. Not sure if the new sacred/bless system helped the Van. All said and done, Vanheim is good, but not great. Unless I'm missing something.

Vanheim, Helheim - A bit of death magic? Nah. Does nothing for me.

Vanhiem, Midgard - Level 2 astral mage. Air 2 mage with 2 random picks (for 160 gold). Yummy! I like this theme. No valks though. I think this is the strongest Vanheim theme.

Jotunheim, Iron Woods - Effectively this is the "goblin" theme. Bleh. Nothing to see here.

Jotunheim, Neifelheim - Big freaky giants! A potential super combatant that I can buy for gold. Nice! This theme has some potential.

Jotunheim, Utgard - Siethkona. Real death magic. Some astral also. Probably the most well rounded Jotunhiem theme. This is the theme I would play right now. Strong.

R'lyeh - Much more "Cthulhu" flavor than Dom1. Protected water start. Looks like the mind bLasts are dangerous this time around. I need more practice with this new theme. It's got potential. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mictlan - Free slaves. They're garbage, but hey, it's *free* garbage. Blood magic, nice. Good, but expensive access to magic paths. The eagle warriors interest me. I need to do some work with Mictlan before real judgement... but right now I like what I see. It's a complex nation. If you are new to the game, move along.

T'ien Ch'i - I like the diverse military. Magic is a bit weak, but has interesting summons. It's at least good. Possibly more...

T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn - Requires turmoil +1. Has weaker military but stronger magics than regular theme. Not as interesting, to me. The forced turmoil is too harsh.

T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings - Better military... but turmoil +2. Weak economics self-defeats the improved military. No interest from me.

Machaka - Diverse troops. Outstanding assassins. The magic is a bit weak, but adequate. Good, but not great. Lot's of fun though. Can't beat giant spiders for sheer smile factor.

That's my preliminary thoughts. More details as I discover them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

apoger

November 18th, 2003, 08:31 AM

>Is there a strength to Arco that I might not have noticed?

* Hoplites
* Elephants
* Astrologers casting soul slay
* Priestesses can heal pretenders afflictions!
* Mystics are great for forging items
* Late in game, communion allows magic mayhem
* The Nataraja

Nerfix

November 18th, 2003, 08:41 AM

Elephants and Mammoths are like quarter of their former cost effectines in Dom II... They get fried by Curse, Decay, Drain Life and anything that targets big hp creatures and Illithids on "Target big monsters", and they just cost too much with the new economy. I haven't built a single Elephant with Arco in Dom II because i have found that putting my money on Hoplites or Cavalry is more cost effective.

I can find a reason to use Soul Gate in Mp...
Ruining other players games. I don't know how effective the incorpereal undead critters are, but having ethereal boogeymen from the start is just... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Just add furious expansion and some nation who has tad weak magic like poor Ulm and there you go.

Besides, don't ya hate it when you find a 0 pop Farmlands province, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 18, 2003, 06:46: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

apoger

November 18th, 2003, 08:46 AM

The only thing mentioned that would concern me is the Illithids. So I would ease up if I anticipated conflict with R'lyeh.

Otherwise I find the Elephants/Mammoths to be essential for fast expansion. In fact, more than in Dom1.

Everyone has a different style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Nerfix

November 18th, 2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by apoger:
The only thing mentioned that would concern me is the Illithids. So I would ease up if I anticipated conflict with R'lyeh.

Otherwise I find the Elephants/Mammoths to be essential for fast expansion. In fact, more than in Dom1.

Everyone has a different style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I got frustraded with the Elephants/Mammoths in Dom I when every time i met a mage with 1 death he bLasted my 'Phants/'Moths with Decay.

I find them to be unreliable(weak morale, almost every indy mage can screw them) and too expensive(with the Dom II economy).

But hey, everyone has their own style...

[ November 18, 2003, 06:53: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

November 18th, 2003, 09:36 AM

You can have a leader hold for a number of turns then retreat. Just (No army) Elephants geared towards the rearmost will run for the back of the army trampling; then when their morale fails, run backwards through the middle of the enemy trampling more. You rarely lose an elephant unless he gets caught by webs or vines.

If that commander is a Priestess of Arco you can have her cast sermon of courage to get another round or two out of your elephant or you have one sitting in your retreat province they can heal them and have them do another go next turn. Free attrition.

At least thats how I've tried to get my mammoths to work.

apoger

November 18th, 2003, 09:47 AM

Just keep all your elephants in one unit and add in some hoplites. The numbers plus the hoplite morale will bolster the elephants. Throw in a priestess to cast sermon of courage (and heal afflictions if they get bad). Works like a charm. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

November 18th, 2003, 09:56 AM

You can also put a non routing scripted commander in the top left or bottom left corner or your position screen and have him hold/cast spells (if it's not a priest(ess) and if/when the mammoths/elephants rout they won't run him over since they run in a straight line.

Also what Alex said http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . High numbers of hard to kill units will make the unit have a greater moral. Then of course Sermon of Courage/Fanatism... Also nature Users have a spell called "Berserkers" which works like a charm for Elephant/Mammoth patrols.

Not to step on your toes Alex http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nagot Gick Fel

November 18th, 2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by apoger:
I don't like the mashmaster.Can't understand why you don't like him. 40 more gold for the extra magic seems correctly priced to me. He's much more flexible than the Sauromancer, who's basically a one-trick pony (although a good one at it, I admit). The MM doesn't raise skels as effectively, but at least you don't need communion anymore to use effective nature magic on the battlefield. Low-level nature spells like Touch of Madness are great on Elite Warriors or Falchioners.

IMO, the real downside of Miasma is the inability to recruit independent mages, and (to a lesser extent) the limited choices of pretenders (have to pick a cold-blooded, undead or immortal one).

Mortifer

November 18th, 2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
I just finished a game playing R'leyh and it seemed like they were UNBELIVEABLY powerful. Illithids are vastly improved- I destroyed Mictlan's pretender titan (gold shield male Version), a priest king, 10 slaves and 13 warriors with a force of just 5 illithids and 17 hybrid troopers (the smaller ones with high morale and really low resource cost)! Each turn mictlan basicly lost 5 of its highest hp warriors until only slaves were left, which promptly routed. Possibly the ultimate counter to early game SCs.

Also, has anyone checked out some of the INSANE monsters they can summon using void gate? I just popped out a Vastness on turn 40... Good lord. It's a freaking monster! It moves anywhere it wants, is pretty much impossible to kill and causes enemy troops to die merely by being near them. AWESOME! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

To be fair, there are a lot of junk monsters that your mages can summon as well (those immobile tentacle plants, for example). But the Vastness is just... WOW. It's like a demon lord, but free, and faster. To be fair, my dominion was luck 3 and the hero void searching was exp. level 9, so its not probable that you'd turn up a Vastness early in the game and cruise to a cinch victory.

Still, R'leyh seems amazing. Yeap, awesome nation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Abysia kicks some *** too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Sammual

November 18th, 2003, 01:10 PM

I got my copy yesterday and played for about 10 hours. The balance between nations is great.

I thought I was going to clean up with my heavy Bless Giants but they started to stall mid game and are now on the defensive from high level magic.

I tried Ermor (Ashen whatever) and WOW did I have a lot of points to spend. I was SHURE I was going to clean house. I had a pretender with 9 Death, 4 in everything but Fire and Air (1 in each of them). I was able to get off to a great start (And find a LOT of sites) but I started to stall when my Domain started to get countered. Now Every offense is expensive as all the nations around me have a lot of Priests and they are attacking with Priests and Seasonal Creatures (They just EAT low level undead). I am still winning but it is one hell of a fight now.

Sammual

Joonie73

November 18th, 2003, 04:46 PM

Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

Originally posted by apoger:
There are MANY nations and sub-themes, and the game is new. It's going to take a while to get a solid grip on what's good and bad.

That said... this is my gut reaction to the major nations/themes;

Abysia - Slow starter, but good endgame. Blood magic ramps up nice. Don't underestimate the Warlocks.

Abysia, Blood of Humans - Weak. I don't like it. The full game doesn't seem to be enforcing scales like the demo. A change between Versions? Even so, there's nothing that gets my attention.

Atlantis - Like the defense of starting underwater. Like the Dagon. Good magics. A strong nation from start to finish.

Pythium - Good troops and good magic. Even without "Gateway V.1" Pythium still has lots of what it takes to win, and no real weakness.

Pythium, Serpent Cult - The Hydra's can be abused with the new bless effects. However the magics are weak. I don't like having all eggs in one basket. It's got power, but weakness as well. Not as good as regular Pythium. IMHO.

Man - Good fast expansion. Nice spells. Crones still rock. Stronger than Dom1. Now a real contender.

Man, Last of the Tuatha - Not bad, but I like the crones better than the Tuatha mage selection.

Ulm - Was second rate in Dom1 and may be thrid rate in Dom2. Smiths now very weak. Total lack of ability to handle super combants will make life hard on multiplayer Ulm.

C'tis - Death magic not hammered as bad as other paths. C'tis comes out way ahead compared to Dom1. More complex than some other nations, but there is potency in the Dom2 lizards.

C'tis, Desert Tombs - The theme is expensive. Takes a bit too long to ramp up the free summons. I think I could do better undead work using the Sauromancers from regular C'tis. It's a cute theme, and it might have a place in low resource scenarios... but in general I'd say it's not a top competitor.

C'tis, Miasma - I don't like the mashmaster. The disease effect isn't strong enough to matter much. I prefer the regular theme.

Arcoscephale - Good troops. Elephants rock. Good magic. Always a contender.

Caelum - Mammoths rock. Even without air elementals, the high seraphs are great. The mobility of the flyers will be stronger than in Dom1 due to the slower strategic moves of many enemy troops. Some weakness versus super combatants, however the sheer speed of Caelum may make it a terror in multiplayer.

Caelum, Return of the Raptors - I don't like losing air magic in favor of a tidbit of death magic. I don't see any real advantage in this theme over the regular caelum. The Raven Guard are nice, but not enough to convice me to drop the air magic.

Ermor, Broken Empire - This is a meaty theme! It's got good troops. It's got evil priests summoning undead. Very playable.

Ermor, Ashen Empire - I.E. DomI Ermor. This Ermor's dominion always attracts heat in multiplayer. In Dom1 Ermor could field a serious super combatant when others couldn't imagine doing the same. Now it's not so unique. Also the new bless/sacred system will encourage players to have lots of priest power floating around. I don't like Ashen Empire for multiplayer. It's great for single play, as the computer AI can't handle the deadly dominion.

Ermor, Soul Gate - So far this looks similar to Ashen Empire, just using incorporeal undead instead of skeltons/zombies. If someone can find a reason for this theme... let me know.

Marignon - All things considered I think Marignon is stronger in Dom2. Not hugely, but enough. It's good, but not great.

Marignon, Diabolical Faith - I don't like that it requires a minium Turmoil +1 and Heat +1. The access to blood magic is sweet, but the economic hardship is rough. I'll pass on this theme.

Marignon, Fires of Faith - Heat +1, yuk. Just to get the effect of a level-1 priest preaching in your provinces? Is there something that I'm missing? Doesn't work for me.

Pangaea - Weaker troops but much better magic. This looks to be pretty dedicated to the maenad theme. Could be OK. Doesn't leap out at me.

Pangaea, Carrion Woods - Pumping carrion creatures is about as effective as the meanad theme. Better quality, fewer numbers. It's alright.

Pangaea, New Era - Stronger troops, but less magic than other Pangaean themes. Very nice ground pounders. Some weakness versus super combatants. Not quite a top contender, but solid.

Vanheim - Loss of lesser air elementals hurt Vanhiem more than others air Users. Valks fly. It's got air and earth magic. Not sure if the new sacred/bless system helped the Van. All said and done, Vanheim is good, but not great. Unless I'm missing something.

Vanheim, Helheim - A bit of death magic? Nah. Does nothing for me.

Vanhiem, Midgard - Level 2 astral mage. Air 2 mage with 2 random picks (for 160 gold). Yummy! I like this theme. No valks though. I think this is the strongest Vanheim theme.

Jotunheim, Iron Woods - Effectively this is the "goblin" theme. Bleh. Nothing to see here.

Jotunheim, Neifelheim - Big freaky giants! A potential super combatant that I can buy for gold. Nice! This theme has some potential.

Jotunheim, Utgard - Siethkona. Real death magic. Some astral also. Probably the most well rounded Jotunhiem theme. This is the theme I would play right now. Strong.

R'lyeh - Much more "Cthulhu" flavor than Dom1. Protected water start. Looks like the mind bLasts are dangerous this time around. I need more practice with this new theme. It's got potential. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Mictlan - Free slaves. They're garbage, but hey, it's *free* garbage. Blood magic, nice. Good, but expensive access to magic paths. The eagle warriors interest me. I need to do some work with Mictlan before real judgement... but right now I like what I see. It's a complex nation. If you are new to the game, move along.

T'ien Ch'i - I like the diverse military. Magic is a bit weak, but has interesting summons. It's at least good. Possibly more...

T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn - Requires turmoil +1. Has weaker military but stronger magics than regular theme. Not as interesting, to me. The forced turmoil is too harsh.

T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings - Better military... but turmoil +2. Weak economics self-defeats the improved military. No interest from me.

Machaka - Diverse troops. Outstanding assassins. The magic is a bit weak, but adequate. Good, but not great. Lot's of fun though. Can't beat giant spiders for sheer smile factor.

That's my preliminary thoughts. More details as I discover them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

apoger

November 18th, 2003, 05:00 PM

>I don't like the mashmaster

>>Can't understand why you don't like him. 40 more gold for the extra magic seems correctly priced to me. He's much more flexible than the Sauromancer, who's basically a one-trick pony (although a good one at it, I admit).

You hit the nail on the head. I prefer that my primary national mage be top notch in one skill rather than OK in a few.

Gandalf Parker

November 18th, 2003, 05:09 PM

Note what he said as far as There are MANY nations and sub-themes, and the game is new. It's going to take a while to get a solid grip on what's good and bad.
That said... this is my gut reaction to the major nations/themes;Keep in mind that this is a deep and balanced game. If there was an obviously strongest nation then it would not be a well-done game.

A) a nation is strong if it matches the players style. If you want to play like a tank-commander then take ulm. If you tend to prefer research and magic then try Arcosphale. If you like air-dropped invasions try Man. If you like CIA secret armys try Pangaea.

B) a nation is weak if its strong points are ones you dont really use.

C) it can be a rude awakening in your first few multiplayer games to discover that your "weak" nations are someone elses "strongest" nations.

In Dom1 we went thru a LONG and enjoyable process of declaring certain nations to be too strong or unbalanced, then discovering that the balance was already there but in another nation we hadnt played seriously yet. I think the Devs had a great time waiting and watching for us to discover these.

We started saying "if you THINK its too strong then search for the response" and also that "if you think its weak and worthless then get creative in how it might be used".
EVENTUALLY we did find some things that we just couldnt balance out and tweaks showed up in patches for those. But it was a long way off from where we thought we had found such things. Personally I think its abit early to judge.

Some specialize in testing the "too strong" stuff. I like to concentrate on finding something interesting about the "who would ever choose this" stuff.

But that was a great list. One persons list (dont like Pangaeas default huh? hee hee hee). But everyones list will be different. Thats the great thing about this game.

[ November 18, 2003, 15:20: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

apoger

November 18th, 2003, 05:20 PM

>Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

My pleasure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

>If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

That's a tough call at this point. I'll give it a shot, with the disclaimer that the list will likely change as we become more experienced with the new game. Also keep in mind that I am looking at this from a distinctly multiplayer point of view.

Unreserved thumbs up:
Pythium
Man
Arcoscephale
Caelum

Potent:
Atlantis
Jotunheim, Utgard
Jotunheim, Neifelheim
R'lyeh
C'tis
Mictlan
Abysia
Machaka
Pythium, Serpent Cult
Vanhiem, Midgard

Solid:
T'ien Ch'i
Ermor, Broken Empire
Man, Last of the Tuatha
C'tis, Desert Tombs
C'tis, Miasma
Caelum, Return of the Raptors
Marignon
Pangaea
Pangaea, New Era
Pangaea, Carrion Woods
Vanheim
Jotunheim, Iron Woods

Slightly weak:
Ulm
Abysia, Blood of Humans
Ermor, Ashen Empire
Ermor, Soul Gate
Vanheim, Helheim
T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn

Questionable:
Marignon, Diabolical Faith
Marignon, Fires of Faith
T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings

Joonie73

November 18th, 2003, 06:10 PM

Apoger, Arcos as one of the strongest nations? That is very surprising. I don't see any huge upside for them except their battle affliction-healing priestesses.

Originally posted by apoger:
>Wow. What a comprehensive list. Thanks!

My pleasure. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

>If you were to rank the top 3 or 4 strongest and weakest nations overall, what would you say?

That's a tough call at this point. I'll give it a shot, with the disclaimer that the list will likely change as we become more experienced with the new game. Also keep in mind that I am looking at this from a distinctly multiplayer point of view.

Unreserved thumbs up:
Pythium
Man
Arcoscephale
Caelum

Potent:
Atlantis
Jotunheim, Utgard
Jotunheim, Neifelheim
R'lyeh
C'tis
Mictlan
Abysia
Machaka
Pythium, Serpent Cult
Vanhiem, Midgard

Solid:
T'ien Ch'i
Ermor, Broken Empire
Man, Last of the Tuatha
C'tis, Desert Tombs
C'tis, Miasma
Caelum, Return of the Raptors
Marignon
Pangaea
Pangaea, New Era
Pangaea, Carrion Woods
Vanheim
Jotunheim, Iron Woods

Slightly weak:
Ulm
Abysia, Blood of Humans
Ermor, Ashen Empire
Ermor, Soul Gate
Vanheim, Helheim
T'ien Ch'i, Spring and Autumn

Questionable:
Marignon, Diabolical Faith
Marignon, Fires of Faith
T'ien Ch'i, Barbarian Kings

November 18th, 2003, 06:26 PM

Arco's get Elephants, Cheap Hoplites, Priestesses (of course), Mystic (Blood anyone?), and Astrologer with 3 in Astral plus a random and of couse they get the Natarajah pretender (Caelum too; I think Alex likes the Natty a little too much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

They have huge advantages if you play certain strategies and are solid performers all around. Even Last night when I tried a Turmoil 3, Luck 3 Crossbreedothon/Lucky Arco they were able to pump out very decent armies (with -21% Income no less) and mystics/astro/priestess's every turn.

Gandalf Parker

November 18th, 2003, 06:29 PM

Arcosphale has always been a strong nation for those who want powerful magics for late-game. As the strongest in this area I always felt they should have been alittle weaker in the troops. Its always been difficult NOT to rank them number one game-winner in the multiplayer modes.

apoger

November 18th, 2003, 06:55 PM

>I think Alex likes the Natty a little too much

The combination of Arco's ability to forge various items, healing for afflictions, extra hand slots, and zero cost, make the Nataraja a superb pretender choice.

I give it four thumbs up! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Saber Cherry

November 18th, 2003, 07:32 PM

You know what would make Ulm a LOT stronger, and make perfect sense? Their heavy arbalests are currently semi-worthless, since they take massive resources to produce and are one of the few units capable of easily damaging Ulm units. To make matters worse, they only fire every 3 rounds.

But Ulm is weak against magic... so what if heavy arbalests got the "Air Shield Piercing" ability? A gust of wind is much more likely to knock down a light, feathered, aerodynamic arrow than a dense arbalest bolt. With this, Ulm would have some reason to build its crossbowmen, and a good defense against pesky armor-negating air mages.

"Air Shield Piercing" should half the Air Shield effect, by the way, not negate it.

-Cherry

geo981010

November 18th, 2003, 07:33 PM

AP's got a lot of good info in there - thanks for that Alex! But I gotta dissent on the Miasma - not only is it a lot of fun, but it seems to be pretty useful in MP.

The +% income is nice - it cancels out the heat scale gold loss, and a slightly warmer is better with C'tis anyway. Especially with the season's shifting the weather around some anyway, at least +2 heat for C'tis is most likely the real sweet spot for them lizards.

Sure Marshmasters are -1 death then the Sauromancer, but the +1 nature +1 water gives them so many more uses. Can't reanimate the dead as effortlessly, but they will get quickness guaranteed, any of them can cast Foul Vapours with an extra gem (and now C'tis is 50% posion immune, so this is usable right away in large battles), and you start with the Summon Bog Beasts spell (as soon as you get a +2 water MM, start cranking them out - only 5 nature gems for 3 of them with only 1 mage turn used). MMs with 3 nature are excellent for Relief/Charm etc without items, so mid game your potential for never-tiring magic Users is really high. And better site searching to boot, so I really prefer MMs over SMs.

The disease effect is not going to wipe out whole armies in a turn, but it will hurt quickly and make them think about it twice right away http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If you have the choice of attacking C'tis knowing that your troops are going to get diseased or moving against someone else, I imagine most will go for the other. Couple Miasma with a nice defence castle, and sitting on top of an enemy castle is suicidal so any stall will be extra costly. Just the risk of a supercombatant pretender getting diseased early will likely stop some unwanted visits...

Also, the disease effect is pretty potent against the indies - in a province in your dominion, by turn 10 they will be significantly weakened, and mages/priests with lesser HP are the first to go. The softening up of any underwater defences is very handy - even the Amber clan will disease and die and then you can take them with minor losses. By turn 20 any unclaimed indies nearby will likely be decimated by the disease, and you can take them with a token force. In a strong indie game with a good starting dominion, the disease effect will probably be killing off troops faster than you are, and Miasma would be a huge edge in sparsely populated, low resource, high indy games.

Not being able to use most indies is a big drawback, but you don't need too many anyway. With your increased Nature site finding, you should be one of the big contenders for Gift of Health, so that will largely make the disease effect moot. The only real indies C'tis needs are mages (which are rare anyway) and scouts (which are cheap and mainly used outside your dominion), so it isn't too bad.

I need to try it more in larger MP games, but it seems all good to me!

November 18th, 2003, 07:54 PM

I have to say, I thought Caelum would be weaker than it was stated (at least all races using an elemental rush) in Dom 1, but I have found it not to be so. They are just less cheesy and require a little more thought to play them out.

They definitely shine with the low cost of Staff of Storms.

Gandalf Parker

November 18th, 2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
I have to say, I thought Caelum would be weaker than it was stated (at least all races using an elemental rush) in Dom 1, but I have found it not to be so. They are just less cheesy and require a little more thought to play them out.
One of the great things about Caelum is being able to play "checkers" with the provinces. Jump over the difficult ones to take a weak one. There are pros and cons to the tactic. But it lets you spread fast and makes it hard for people to battle their way to your castle. The "sneak" races have this also but cant provide support-troops as fast. Too many new players try to play everyone as if they were Ulm.

[ November 18, 2003, 18:02: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

November 18th, 2003, 08:06 PM

Yes I like that aspect as well; of course, being able to reinforce and split your armies to do massive multi-pronged attacks is great.

One thing I didn't particularly like is when your Iceclads attack the rear and someone routs, they clog it up and get their panzy asses whacked since the routing army runs right through them and if they are in the way they get hit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Just have to find a way to change that behavior.

[ November 18, 2003, 18:07: Message edited by: Zen ]

licker

November 18th, 2003, 08:10 PM

A problem with the checkerboard approach though is supply. Without the connections to your depots and the increased consumption of the fliers it will start to hamper you once your armies begin to get sizeable. (and it doesn't take many fliers for that to happen...)

Its still a good approach though, especially when your opponent really isn't prepared for it. You can also use it to wreck your opponents supply lines...

apoger

November 18th, 2003, 08:16 PM

Just to show how fluid things are right now...

I'm upgrading Ermor [Soul Gate] and Ermor [Broken Empire] to "potent". BE due to the availability of nether dart mages. SG due to a better appreciation of the summons. I like both these themes much more than the Ashen Empire theme.

I still don't like C'tis [Misama]. The extra nature/water doesn't make up for the loss of death specialty IMHO. Furthermore, the incompatibility with indy mages/troops and most pretenders is brutal. On the other hand, if it makes you happy... don't let me stop you from having fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

November 18th, 2003, 08:53 PM

I have to disagree on Pangea Carrion Woods. Reanimiation includes Manikins, Carrion Beasts (which include the Carrion Elephants which can tear through an army).

They have a fast start with their Mino's and War Minos, and of course still have their stealth in the satyr's and Harpies.

Even the Panic apostates being overpriced (320 Gold! 3 Nature, 2 Death) you could field a decent army along with your Carrion Lord(s) Ladies very quickly. The only real downside I can see is their magic resistance; as you are forced to take at least a +1 Magic scale.

I would have to say I've very impressed. GROWTH 3 all the way BABY.

PvK

November 18th, 2003, 09:07 PM

I had no problems using Ulm (Iron Faith) up to turn 40. They certainly had no problem stomping Mictlan, often because Mictlan armies would rout when their slaves started dying. (An idea for an advantage to add to slaves would be to make them not cause morale checks when they die. At least, the AI might be programmed to put them in their own squads to help, although I think it may already be doing that.) I suppose Mictlan probably does much better under human control, and maybe if it does more blood summons.

Meanwhile, as I mentioned elsewhere, my Arco hasn't been doing well against AI Marignon's crossbows, HvInf and HvCav.

These may have a lot to do with my own experience level and play style, though.

Iron Faith Black Priests do get a random magic pick, though, and since they're holy units, they're cheaper than say an Arco Astrologer. The forge bonus can be used to cheaply make items which increase magic power, eventually.

PvK

johan osterman

November 18th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
I have to disagree on Pangea Carrion Woods. Reanimiation includes Manikins, Carrion Beasts (which include the Carrion Elephants which can tear through an army).

They have a fast start with their Mino's and War Minos, and of course still have their stealth in the satyr's and Harpies.

Even the Panic apostates being overpriced (320 Gold! 3 Nature, 2 Death) you could field a decent army along with your Carrion Lord(s) Ladies very quickly. The only real downside I can see is their magic resistance; as you are forced to take at least a +1 Magic scale.

I would have to say I've very impressed. GROWTH 3 all the way BABY. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet, but Carrion Woods has a destructive dominion similar to Ashen Empire or Soulgate themes for Ermor, not quite as destructive but in the long run your core provinces will be utterly depopulated.

[ November 18, 2003, 19:14: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

November 18th, 2003, 09:35 PM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I'm sorry Johan. I was being sarcastic. Ah, so much is lost on the internet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I meant the requirement for the Carrion to have at least Growth 1 for the theme, so you don't get too many points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

Part of the reason that the Carrion Woods theme is strong is because it is like Ermor; you can just pillage and tax to death everyone in your lands and let the Carrion Lords mop up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif while you make scads of Minos, Harpies and Pans.

Joonie73

November 18th, 2003, 09:57 PM

Poger,

Also what is the case for Pythium being so strong? They don't even have powerful blessable units (unless you go Serpent)!

November 18th, 2003, 10:18 PM

Pythium are the standard.

Low cost Communion slaves, good research, good massive troop armies. Hydra's can be devistating, Theurgs and Arch Theurgs can become tremendously powerful.

Anything with a base mage in the race with Astral 3 can use gateway; which is incredibly strong for quick reinforcement between labs.

apoger

November 19th, 2003, 02:48 AM

>Also what is the case for Pythium being so strong? They don't even have powerful blessable units (unless you go Serpent)!

* Outstanding Infantry
* Gladiators (in multiplayer these guys are very potent defensively)
* Communicants!
* Quickness, Communion, Aim, *Orb Lightning*
* Soul Slay works when Orb Lightning fails
* Hydra are great even when not sacred.
* Arch Theurgs using Communion can lay down almost any battefield spell during the late game
* Arch Theurgs have great mobility from teleport and cloud trapeze [don't underestimate the power of surprise]
* Air and Astral magics simply have a wide scope of usefull spells

You have asked about both Arco and Pythium. I suspect that as a player that is new to the game, you have yet to grasp the awesome potency of Communion. Both Arco And Pythium have great infantry and the potential for outrageous battle magics from abusing Communion. It takes a while with the game before the whole communion thing becomes apparent.

johan osterman

November 19th, 2003, 03:05 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I'm sorry Johan. I was being sarcastic. Ah, so much is lost on the internet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I meant the requirement for the Carrion to have at least Growth 1 for the theme, so you don't get too many points http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

Part of the reason that the Carrion Woods theme is strong is because it is like Ermor; you can just pillage and tax to death everyone in your lands and let the Carrion Lords mop up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif while you make scads of Minos, Harpies and Pans. My feeling is that Carrion wood is not particularily strong, if anything I would say it is a weak theme. While it has a strenghts it also have weaknesses. To mention a few:

You do not get as much free summons as Ashen empire, nor do you get the boosted gem income.

Your home province will eventually loose all its pop which will hit your resources severely and keep you from utilising the normal resource heavy troops recruitable in the capital, amongst them the sacred black centaurs. IIRC you cannot build harpies, you just start with one, and can recieve a Arcopythera. Your Panic Apostates are only 30 cheaper than ordinary Pani and have one random less, and do not recieve Meanads.

The effects of the dominion will eventually significantly reduce your income. As long as you manage to keep expanding the theme should do ok, but if you slow down the free summons you get will not offset the income loss.

You will also in multiplayer recieve the same reaction as Ermor, making you a likely target for alliances.

Joonie73

November 19th, 2003, 03:24 AM

Couls someone briefly explain what communion is & how it works? What makes it so powerful?

apoger

November 19th, 2003, 03:40 AM

>Couls someone briefly explain what communion is & how it works? What makes it so powerful?

In Brief:

Some mages cast Communion Slave while others cast Communion Master.

The Slaves take the fatigue when the Masters cast spells. This allows a great deal of casting by the Masters.

The Masters also get magic skill bonuses from the Slaves. All skills +1 for 2 Slaves, +2 for 4, +3 for 8, +4 for 16.

For example:
An Arch Theurg (air-2 astral-3, lets say the ? comes in as nature-1) goes into battle.
There are 8 Communicants with him.
The Arch Theurg casts Communion Master.
The Communicants are slaves automatically.
The Arch Theurg is now air-5 astral-6 nature-4.
When he casts spells, he does not fatigue, the slaves soak up the efforts of spellcasting, allowing the Arch Thuerg to use his pumped up ranks over and over again.

More Slaves will absorb more fatigue.
More Masters will gain the full benefits of the Slaves. The Slaves are shared.
The only danger is driving the Slaves fatigue beyond 200, at which point they take damage and die. Burning out the slaves is common in long battles, however it gets you a stunning supply of mage power before they drop.

November 19th, 2003, 06:19 AM

My feeling is that Carrion wood is not particularily strong, if anything I would say it is a weak theme. While it has a strenghts it also have weaknesses. To mention a few:

You do not get as much free summons as Ashen empire, nor do you get the boosted gem income.

Your home province will eventually loose all its pop which will hit your resources severely and keep you from utilising the normal resource heavy troops recruitable in the capital, amongst them the sacred black centaurs. IIRC you cannot build harpies, you just start with one, and can recieve a Arcopythera. Your Panic Apostates are only 30 cheaper than ordinary Pani and have one random less, and do not recieve Meanads.

The effects of the dominion will eventually significantly reduce your income. As long as you manage to keep expanding the theme should do ok, but if you slow down the free summons you get will not offset the income loss.

You will also in multiplayer recieve the same reaction as Ermor, making you a likely target for alliances. It may be weak compared to the basic Pan theme; but since I haven't played Dom1 I never knew it. I haven't played it in epic, XXXXXL maps with 17 opponents, so I couldn't tell you on that end.

In a certain mindset; not having anything to look back on is a good thing. Especially midsized games, with opponents who sneak attacks and other underhanded ways to cut off supply lines, but your is mobile. Not as good as Ermor; but I wasn't playing it like Ermor, I was playing it like Undead Pangea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

I primarily make Black Harpy flocks (which you can make and I have them in droves cutting supply and starving enemies as well as rearborn mages) and Minos as you lose resources. (Just Mino's, not War Minos since they have 46 Resources)

Also the Black Centaur is a measely 70 Gold, 11 Resource Sacred and with the number of points for a Carrion Wood theme you can make that pretender with good bless effects.

If you are aggressive (Which you should be with this theme) you are overtaking and using new forts to build up your new living troops and throw them in armies with your Manakin's/Mandragora so they never rout and crush through those annoying undead unfriendly units. Also Manikin's regenerate during battle and can tear through provinces quickly when you get started.

Maybe I haven't played enough long games with them or been slowed significantly in order to see that approach. I'll freely admit that I do not know everything; but I would put the theme higher ranking that Alex did simply for the fact of how I have used it.

Maybe I got lucky; and hit quick and fast enough to cause an uproar in my targeted enemies without having a huge domain that caused me to be ganged up on because I was killing others provinces.

War needs no reasons, alliances happen regardless of your actions for the safety blanket. This theme only means you are cut out of most alliances (all except Ermor) unless you have the upper hand.

Gandalf Parker

November 19th, 2003, 03:12 PM

I like Pangaea default. I appreciate the addition of more sneak units such as more centaurs. Still no assassin but I can push for the blood heart to get that. I dont even recruit any of the units that are non-stealth

November 19th, 2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Your home province will eventually loose all its pop which will hit your resources severely and keep you from utilising the normal resource heavy troops recruitable in the capital, amongst them the sacred black centaurs. Although I like the theme, and think that idea for it is really great, I agree with the black centaur issue. The fact that they are only buildable in the capitol, that you can only build them in a first couple of turns when you don't have that much money and have other things to spend it on, that you're also limited by the number of sacred troops, and that they will run an additional risk of starvation later on due to the destructive dominion unless commanded by nature mages will make black centaurs rare birds indeed. Maybe if thay are made to be buildable anywhere with fort & temple? I mean, it's not like you will be able to build many of them even in that case, since temple will mean strong dominion resulting in that province getting depopulated pretty soon as well, but it will offer an opportunity to make at least a few of them later in the game.

Teleolurian

November 19th, 2003, 06:11 PM

Tien Chi gets the Nataraja too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

ywl

November 19th, 2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Teleolurian:
Tien Chi gets the Nataraja too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And an immortal hero who can heal.

Tien Chi also gets very good heavy cavalry at a reasonable price (25 gold / 28 resource), who can shoot, charge (lance), long spear and a strategic movement of 3. Their heavy infantries and archers (both bow and crossbow!) are also very solid.

The Celestial Master, with only one Astral, is very susceptible to Mind-Duel and is a pain. But at least, the Master of the Way is cheap (100 gold for 2 magic and 2 holy) and recruitable everywhere.

Truper

November 19th, 2003, 10:09 PM

To me Tien Chi magic seems very... muddled. Examples: The Celestial Masters are best at water magic, though their nation is neither underwater nor cold-loving. Their home province does not provide an income of water gems. One of their national specials is summoning Celestial Soldiers, which requires an Air 2 Astral 1 mage, but they do not have any such mages until/unless a Celestial Master gets his random pick in air. A couple of people have mentioned their national heroes - but another of their national specials is that they get province defence for free in provinces with Order, so it seems natural to want to maximize Order which of course means they are very unlikely to see any of the heroes. In my curent test game, I'm playing them with order +3, I am on turn 19, and have yet to get an event of any kind (random events are rare), much less a hero, although I did take luck +1 partially in hope of seeing them. Celestial masters have intrinsic fire magic, and not intrinsic earth magic, but their home province does not provide a fire gem income while it does provide an earth gem income. The likelyhood that a CM has a lot of paths at 1 but only water at 2 makes them terrible site searchers.

Their most interesting troops are all expensive and hideously resource intensive, making them something of an Ulm of the East. You really want lots of order, lots of productivity and lots of administration, which is going to leave damn few design points for the pretender or anything else.

In short, I have no clue how to play these guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif But I am working on it.

Keir Maxwell

November 19th, 2003, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Truper:
so it seems natural to want to maximize Order which of course means they are very unlikely to see any of the heroes. In my curent test game, I'm playing them with order +3, I am on turn 19, and have yet to get an event of any kind (random events are rare), much less a hero, although I did take luck +1 partially in hope of seeing them. What I remember reading was that your chance of getting heroes is based on luck only and accumulates from turn to turn. With -3 luck no chance, with -2 1% +1% per turn resetting when you get one, with -1 2% pt etc.

Playing +1 luck I have got nationals heroes at a good clip.

Cheers

Keir

Keir Maxwell

November 19th, 2003, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
War needs no reasons, alliances happen regardless of your actions for the safety blanket. This theme only means you are cut out of most alliances (all except Ermor) unless you have the upper hand. It has been noted previously in relation to Ermor in Dom I that with experianced players an alliance/co-operation with Ermor is viable. With care you can keep Ermors dominion under control - if you are limited neighbours - and if not then having Ermor on the other side of a mutual enemy could work well.

As I pretty much only play no alliance games or scenario's with set/restricted alliances in MP I'm open to limited co-operation (ie leave them alone) with anybody whos growth can furthur my aims. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif If my race has powerful anti-undead capabilities then thats all true twice over - always nice to have the edge over races one is leaving for later. Are you reassured Zen? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

cheers

Keir

apoger

November 19th, 2003, 11:15 PM

>To me Tien Chi magic seems very... muddled.

So far I only see two good ways to exploit their magic.

1- Wait for an air-2 mage, and get the Celestial Summons.

2- Use communion to drive up the mages power levels.

Seems limited. I'll have to play with it some more.

What I do like about TC is the troop selection. They get both archers and crossbow. I also like the footman with glaive for 10/10. It's lightweight, but packs a heavy weapon. Better than many other junky light troops.

The horse archers seem interesting as well. I haven't found a way to exploit them yet... but I'm trying.

I'm still trying to develop a good feel for the nation. If anyone else has found some way that it shines, let us know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

ywl

November 20th, 2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Truper:
To me Tien Chi magic seems very... muddled. Examples: The Celestial Masters are best at water magic, though their nation is neither underwater nor cold-loving. Their home province does not provide an income of water gems. One of their national specials is summoning Celestial Soldiers, which requires an Air 2 Astral 1 mage, but they do not have any such mages until/unless a Celestial Master gets his random pick in air. A couple of people have mentioned their national heroes - but another of their national specials is that they get province defence for free in provinces with Order, so it seems natural to want to maximize Order which of course means they are very unlikely to see any of the heroes. In my curent test game, I'm playing them with order +3, I am on turn 19, and have yet to get an event of any kind (random events are rare), much less a hero, although I did take luck +1 partially in hope of seeing them. Celestial masters have intrinsic fire magic, and not intrinsic earth magic, but their home province does not provide a fire gem income while it does provide an earth gem income. The likelyhood that a CM has a lot of paths at 1 but only water at 2 makes them terrible site searchers.

Their most interesting troops are all expensive and hideously resource intensive, making them something of an Ulm of the East. You really want lots of order, lots of productivity and lots of administration, which is going to leave damn few design points for the pretender or anything else.

In short, I have no clue how to play these guys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif But I am working on it. I took order 0 (or -1) and luck +3. I got all three before turn 30 (or 20, I've forgotten http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Random increase of local defense is nice but I don't find them very useful. Spending 1 to 2 gold on each province can be easily afforded.

Thier units are not resource intensive...

Their heavy horseman is 25 gold and 28 resource. It is equivalent to Emerald Guards. They don't fight as well, but they shoot, charge and run away fast if things don't go their way. I don't mind using them as the bulk of my army.

The higher protection imperial footman is 13/18 and imperial guard is 15/21 - neither is cheap but quite affordable. The cheapest archers are 10/9 - not that much worse than Man's Longbow (12/6) while their composite bow is comparable.

Red guard is 70/42. I don't find them very impressive. But comparing to the other holy cavalries (Knight of the Chalice, Black Templar), I guess you can say that they're at least cheaper (but weak).

I think Tien-Chi regular army units have among the best combinations.

As you said, they do get funny magic choices. The way following the Water is supposingly inspired by Chinese philosophy. It's a superficial way to put it but well it's just a game. Yes, I'm Chinese http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Master of the Way give you one water and thus quickness. They also have one random pick - quite a good buy for secondary mage. I'm still thinking how to use them effectively. Frozen Heart will be a possibility but that spell is not very destructive. Celestial Master is hard to use. I don't know how yet.

The three heroes of Tien-Chi are:
Ho Hsien-Ku: 2 nature, 1 air, heal afflictions, ethereal, flight and immortal.
Lu Tung-Pi: 1 fire, 1 air, 2 water, 3 astral, 3 holy, flight, yes and also immortal.
Li Tieh-Kuai: 2 death, 2 astral, 2 air, another immortal and your Celestial Solider Summoner.

ywl

November 20th, 2003, 12:36 AM

BTW, does anybody know how you can summon the "Demon of the Heavenly River" with Tien-Chi? The monster is there but I cannot get any mage to cast it.

johan osterman

November 20th, 2003, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by ywl:
BTW, does anybody know how you can summon the "Demon of the Heavenly River" with Tien-Chi? The monster is there but I cannot get any mage to cast it. A celestial master should be able to cast it. Some of the national summons for Tien Chi requires that random skill turn out a certain way.

[ November 19, 2003, 23:45: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

ywl

November 20th, 2003, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ywl:
BTW, does anybody know how you can summon the "Demon of the Heavenly River" with Tien-Chi? The monster is there but I cannot get any mage to cast it. A celestial master should be able to cast it. Some of the national summons for Tien Chi requires that random skill turn out a certain way. <hr /></blockquote>I used an rainbow mage pretender with level 2 in everything, excpet 4 in astral. Even she can't cast it. Do you have to be a Celestial Master to cast the spell?

apoger

November 20th, 2003, 02:23 AM

Looks like the Tien Chi main theme can summon astral and earth, while the Spring & Autum theme summons fire, water, and death.

johan osterman

November 20th, 2003, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by ywl:
I used an rainbow mage pretender with level 2 in everything, excpet 4 in astral. Even she can't cast it. Do you have to be a Celestial Master to cast the spell? My guess is that you are playing the standard theme. Demons of Heavenly rivers is not available to the standard theme. Casting it only requires astral and water 1.

[ November 20, 2003, 00:30: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Keir Maxwell

November 20th, 2003, 05:01 AM

All these Tien Chi tidbits are killing me with curiosity. The heavy cavalry sound exciting - what is their Prot? If you put them on hold and attack do they shoot while holding?

Help appreciated,

Keir

Chris Byler

November 20th, 2003, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ywl:
I used an rainbow mage pretender with level 2 in everything, excpet 4 in astral. Even she can't cast it. Do you have to be a Celestial Master to cast the spell? My guess is that you are playing the standard theme. Demons of Heavenly rivers is not available to the standard theme. Casting it only requires astral and water 1. <hr /></blockquote>It's kind of annoying that the "National Spells" section of the spell manual only includes national battlefield spells, and not national ritual spells (Desert Tombs, Ashen Empire, Soul Gates, and apparently several different themes of T'ien Ch'i - maybe Carrion Woods too?).

Anyway, I was able to cast Demon of Heavenly Rivers with my pretender (Jade Emperor - water 4 astral 6, although with what I know now I'd probably go for a rainbow mage next time; T'ien Ch'i needs access to a variety of booster items) in Spring and Autumn.

The Spring and Autumn Celestial Master is amazing - 7 magic levels, level 4 priest and flying for 250 - 2/3 the cost of an archtheurg. The only real weakness is the 1 astral making him a magic duel target against the astral big boys (Pythium, Arco, R'lyeh). And the low path requirements for the celestial summons go great with the CM's broad based magic. (I recommend a pretender that can forge Staff of Elemental Mastery and/or Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry - both CMs and Masters of the Five Elements gain a lot from multi-boosters.)

Oh, and the Gate of Spring and Autumn produces 6 gems a turn. Why should Pythium have all the fun?

Spring and Autumn doesn't have any cheap communion slaves though.

One more oddity with Spring and Autumn: their province defense is still led by Eunuchs, even though they aren't a normally recruitable commander. (I don't know if this sort of thing happens with other special themes too.)

November 20th, 2003, 10:03 AM

The Celestial Master is Priest level 3 and they Fly 3. They are their own rainbow mages, basically http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Great search machines; by far one of the best uses for them.

I don't particularly like the fact that their nobles can only command 25 though; frustrating when you are packing around a ton of horses. Also those horses are actually one archer unit that works... well. And the Glaviers are very nice to hold the line.

Their regular armies get worked pretty hard by heavy cav and large numbers of heavy infantry. As the Horsies still shoot badly even with Aim cast on them multiple times. They work really well with low end enchantment spells that Celestial masters and the heroes have access to. Like Protection, Aim, etc. If only they had xbows ...

Though I guess that is what Demon's of heavenly fire are for, just need more fire gems and to summon them in droves!

Required Turmoil 1 is not nice, along with Magic 1.

Edit: Barbarian Kings has Turmoil 2 Requirement. Though they start out with "Spirit Mastery" which calls 15 Dispossesed Spirits for 4 Death Gems. If you can get an early stockpile of them (via Searching) you can have a quick abusive army with their Heavy Horsemen and Glavie Users.

[ November 20, 2003, 08:12: Message edited by: Zen ]

November 20th, 2003, 10:31 AM

I can only say this about R'lyeh ... ug.

They are fairly one dimensional. But ... ug. They are definitely upper end.

One more time for the children ... ug.

ywl

November 20th, 2003, 05:49 PM

Kristoffer O

November 20th, 2003, 11:18 PM

The Nobles leadership of 25 is supposed to represent the fact that the armies of the Spring & Autumn period (couldn't resist using the name) 722-481 BC were rather small and the fighting mostly done by chariot-borne noblemen. Honour and prestige rather than territory was the goal of the battles (according to D.A. Graff).

The default theme of the nation is the classical empire thing and the only one that is orderly. Actually I was tempted to make order 3 an obligation for the default. The bureaucracy of imperial China was outstanding.

The ancestor cult of early times was renewed with the barbarian incursions and their beliefs.

Oops, I got carried away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nerfix

November 20th, 2003, 11:44 PM

Chris Byler

November 21st, 2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
The Nobles leadership of 25 is supposed to represent the fact that the armies of the Spring & Autumn period (couldn't resist using the name) 722-481 BC were rather small and the fighting mostly done by chariot-borne noblemen. Honour and prestige rather than territory was the goal of the battles (according to D.A. Graff).

The default theme of the nation is the classical empire thing and the only one that is orderly. Actually I was tempted to make order 3 an obligation for the default. The bureaucracy of imperial China was outstanding.

The ancestor cult of early times was renewed with the barbarian incursions and their beliefs.

Oops, I got carried away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yeah, the Spring and Autumn nobles are really interesting. Spring and Autumn has no chariot troops, so the nobles tend to trample way into the enemy ranks by themselves (while racking up fatigue from all the trampling).

As Sun Tzu said, if a general is careless, he can be killed.

I also like how the conscription effect is tied to order, and the non-bureaucratic special themes require turmoil - thus they can't get conscription.

And as already posted, I love the Spring and Autumn CM. Two things I left out before:

1. Many of T'ien Ch'i's mages (including the CM and Master of the Five Elements) are amphibious due to their water magic. If you have independents set fairly high, the amphibious merc companies may not be able to take a sea province by themselves, but with some support from a CM they probably could.

2. The CM's astral isn't just for communion - it's good for Power of the Spheres, too. There are a lot of cross-path spells you can cast with two of one path and one or two of another; a CM with Power of the Spheres gets two (or more) of a lot of things. I'd also advise crystal shields, in addition to the aforementioned Staves of Elemental Mastery and Rings of Sorcery/Wizardry. (A lot of mages are powerful with these items, but the CM get more from them than most.)

Jasper

November 21st, 2003, 01:56 AM

Tien Chi looks quite interesting, but am I the only one completely put off by expensive mages with Astral 1?! Tien Chi looks even more vulnerable to Magic Duel than Marignon!

Celestial Masters run in fear from any faction that starts with an astral mage -- more than half of them! Not to mention anyone who happens to find Crystal Amazons or Lizard Shamen, or even Sages.

Playing Tien Chi just sounds painfull.

apoger

November 21st, 2003, 03:00 AM

>Tien Chi looks quite interesting, but am I the only one completely put off by expensive mages with Astral 1?!

The more exposure I get to Tien Chi the more I agree. I like the troops, and I like some of the summons, but the mage power is lacking. I fear that the late game will be hard on TC.

Still, it's early to be writting them off. If I still feel the same way in three months...

Saber Cherry

November 21st, 2003, 03:06 AM

You have to spend an average of 8*90=720 gold on sages to get an astral sage... I don't see that as a very cheap or reliable way to hunt Tien Chi mages... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

LordArioch

November 21st, 2003, 05:40 AM

Solution...magic duel immunity item! It would solve the problem of astral weakening mages, but still leave mind duel as a valid strategy because not every astral mage will have one. That way all you people can stop worring about magic duels so much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Jasper

November 21st, 2003, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
You have to spend an average of 8*90=720 gold on sages to get an astral sage... I don't see that as a very cheap or reliable way to hunt Tien Chi mages... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Don't send the non astral ones to hunt Celestial Masters. :-/

If you are recruiting sages, you will get some with Astral. Facing Tien Chi, an obvious tactic would be to have them Magic Duel the drastically more expensive Celestial Masters. This is bad enough even in the weakest case (Sages), and gets much worse when you face any faction with signficant Astral power.

Keir Maxwell

November 21st, 2003, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by LordArioch:
Solution...magic duel immunity item!I would like to second this.

November 21st, 2003, 07:24 AM

Maybe a helmet or something. And not "Mind Hunt" immunity, or even more early supercombatants would surface, but perhaps a 6 Construction item that requires a certain amount before you could use it. Say Astral 3. Or you resist a mindhunt, but it has a chance to cause an affliction based on ... something. Totally negating mind hunt with an item IMO would be counterbalancing.

Jasper

November 21st, 2003, 09:57 AM

A Magic Duel Immunity item seems too specific IMHO, but then a broader Astral Immunity item would be too much...

I'd be happier just tweaking Tien Chi's Celestial Masters so they had an extra Air magic rather than Astral. There are enough races with Astral magic as it is.

IMHO this is more in theme with the elemental nature of Chinese Magic; letting CM's Cloud Trapeze is particularly apt -- isn't Chinese Mythology where the idea for the spell comes from? It would also make Tien Chi much more viable.

IMHO even just removing their Astral skill would improve Celestial Masters. :-(

Keir Maxwell

November 21st, 2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Jasper:
A Magic Duel Immunity item seems too specific IMHO, I have no problem with a specific defense to a unbalencing weakness. Mind Duel is terrifying for weak astral mages and providing a way of protecting them adds to the possibilities in the game.

I would suggest a Con 4 helmet, requiring astral 1 or 2, which blocked all use of Astral magic and provided defense versus mind duel - you turn off your own Astral and thus gain protection. Seems reasonable to me.

cheers

Keir

(confusion over Marignon diablolic faith points edited out)

[ November 21, 2003, 21:13: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

November 23rd, 2003, 09:59 AM

Johan ... you were right.

You can't expand fast enough for the theme to work if you play anything but a short/fast game. Perhaps there could be a reworking that maybe population is eaten slower or that the good units (Like the Black Centaur and the Pans) were buildable everywhere.

Saber Cherry

November 23rd, 2003, 10:18 AM

Or maybe if lots of vinemen/ogres/mandragoras rise up in strong dominion, regardless of population... then the pop-killing thing with a growth scale would make sense=)

Arralen

November 23rd, 2003, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LordArioch:
Solution...magic duel immunity item!I would like to second this. <hr /></blockquote>What's easier ??:

- Tweaking all nations mages so their weakness to magic duel is balanced in one or the other way.
or
- Making another item which has to balanced and adds another opportunity for micromanagement
or
- Tweak the spell to be more sensible.

I vote for the third. It's unnecessary anyway - there aren't any duel spells with the other paths, so why should it be there for astral?
Or to put it the other way 'round - a mage cannot target another mage, unless both know astral magic. All of a sudden both become big fat, not particularly fast moving targets ... .

A.

Arralen

November 23rd, 2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
..., although with what I know now I'd probably go for a rainbow mage next time; T'ien Ch'i needs access to a variety of booster items) in Spring and Autumn.Try the following:

Frost Father
Fire - 4
Water - 4
Earth - 4
Death - 4

Turmoil 1*
Sloth 1
Growth 2
Luck 1
Magic 1* .. *preset

Watchtower
1pt left

... makes interesting bless for Celestial "Ogers" and the mages...

A.

apoger

November 23rd, 2003, 09:41 PM

> It's unnecessary anyway - there aren't any duel spells with the other paths, so why should it be there for astral?

Agreed.

How's this for an agrument... Magic Duel is -NOT FUN-. I consider it a burden. It is added complexity that almost never makes the game better. At least in my opinion.

Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked.

Nerfix

November 23rd, 2003, 09:47 PM

Apoger, if we drop out all things that people find -NOT FUN-, Dominions II gets pretty poor in the content.

Truper

November 23rd, 2003, 10:36 PM

Agreed.

How's this for an agrument... Magic Duel is -NOT FUN-. I consider it a burden. It is added complexity that almost never makes the game better. At least in my opinion.

Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked. It's a question that I suppose only the MP vets can answer, as the AI doesn't use magic duel.

But I think it may have been put into the game as burden to make people think twice about one of the unique abilities of astral mages, since toned down in Dom2 - namely gateway. Sure you can blip entire armies around the map, and get a special attack before the other guy moves, but make a mistake, and blip into a province with a better astral mage, and run the risk of stranding that army, with appropriately dire consequences.

I also don't see how the management of dueling is especially more burdensome than some of the more mundane management tasks - ensuring that your armored Ulmish hordes aren't going up against too many crossbows, or whether the enemy might have a force capable of using wrathful skies, or whether they might use one of the other instant-death spells like disintegrate, etc.

It also comes with its own fair share of risk, now that it is no longer deterministic.

Why is it any -LESS FUN- than any of the myriad other ways you can get stomped?

Chris Byler

November 23rd, 2003, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Arralen:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris Byler:
..., although with what I know now I'd probably go for a rainbow mage next time; T'ien Ch'i needs access to a variety of booster items) in Spring and Autumn.Try the following:

Frost Father
Fire - 4
Water - 4
Earth - 4
Death - 4

Turmoil 1*
Sloth 1
Growth 2
Luck 1
Magic 1* .. *preset

Watchtower
1pt left

... makes interesting bless for Celestial "Ogers" and the mages...

A. <hr /></blockquote>Hmm. Interesting, but can't summon celestials. I'd rather not have to rely on the 250 gold CM to summon celestials in the early game.

Also, I don't think the reinvig blessing is all that good. 2 fatigue per turn is just not that much if you are frequently casting spells that cost 20+. It might give you one extra cast in a long battle (of course you have to bless first, I usually wouldn't bother unless celestial demons are present). It seems to me that air blessings would be more useful for both the celestials and the mages.

Would you really take sloth? I have enough resource problems without it... those leather armors seem to cost a lot of resources for the protection they provide.

Well, one of the things I like about Dom II is that there aren't any completely right or wrong answers in pretender design. It's all tradeoffs.

Keir Maxwell

November 23rd, 2003, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by Truper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Alex P wrote:

Agreed.

How's this for an agrument... Magic Duel is -NOT FUN-. I consider it a burden. It is added complexity that almost never makes the game better. At least in my opinion.

Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked. It's a question that I suppose only the MP vets can answer, as the AI doesn't use magic duel.

Why is it any -LESS FUN- than any of the myriad other ways you can get stomped? <hr /></blockquote>As a MP vet I would like to agree with Alex and Arralen.

Mind Duel is an obnoxious, no fun at all, kill lotsa race ideas mechanism that is a thorn in the side of MP Dom and has been kept in the game to let us vets now that while Illwinter listen to us they are in charge. ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

That was serious except the Last bit.

I have never suffered from Mind Duel personally in MP so this is not a "I got wasted" whinge. The reason I never suffered from Mind Duel is I never played an astral race!? Why - to avoid the horrors and stupid randomness of Mind Duel.

In practice in Dom1 mind duel killed off maybe half the race design options for me. Don't play it because you, and everyone else, knows the absolutely brutal, largely uncounterable way of ruining your race - ooh thats fun - so much fun!

Fun in MP is related to the application of skill. While skill could and should endure a fair degre of randomness there is bugger all skill in wasting someones weaker astral mages and nothing they can do about it except not pick the silly race in the first place or invest in the Astral King crap shoot. No thank you.

Thats why its not fun - the counter to Mind duel for many, many, races is simply not to play them (or if you do don't use their mages).

That only reason I restrain myself from harranging Illwinter about Mind Duel once a month is that the Last few games MP I have played in have simply Banned Mind Duel. Nah nah nah nah - who is really in charge Illwinter? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif You can take my pants but you'll never take my freedom!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Keir

[ November 23, 2003, 21:44: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

PvK

November 23rd, 2003, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by apoger:
...

Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked. I do. I think it's interesting. On the other hand, I understand the objections, and think it'll be good if/when it's a spell that like all others, can be easily modded out of the game if players prefer it not be there.

PvK

[ November 23, 2003, 21:46: Message edited by: PvK ]

Arralen

November 24th, 2003, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

.. suggestion by Arralen:
Frost Father
Fire - 4
Water - 4
Death - 4
_plus_Earth - 4 or Air - 4

Turmoil 1*Sloth 1
Growth 2Luck 1
Magic 1**=preset

Watchtower
1pt left

... makes interesting bless for Celestial "Ogers" _and_ the mages...

Hmm. Interesting, but can't summon celestials. I'd rather not have to rely on the 250 gold CM to summon celestials in the early game.
Acutally, you simply have enough gems to summon exactly 1 "Oger" one turn and 1 "Discthrower" the other turn, so you could get along the first few turns with a CM bought on the first turn.

IMHO it would be a waste of ress. - the pretender should either be doing research (19pts vs. CM 10pts) or go searching sites (Fire, Water to boost the somming). By the time you get the gems for more summons, you should have either a second CM or a "lower" mage with astral ability.

Added death because the low-level MDs could use them not only for summoning undead, but for skeleton med.(for themselves, so they are of some use in combat after doing the initial blessing) and Horror Helmets for the chariots.
Plus the lesser fear might be nice on the River Demons.

Also, I don't think the reinvig blessing is all that good. 2 fatigue per turn is just not that much if you are frequently casting spells that cost 20+. It might give you one extra cast in a long battle (of course you have to bless first, I usually wouldn't bother unless celestial demons are present). It seems to me that air blessings would be more useful for both the celestials and the mages.My fault. Accidently postet my first idea (w. earth), not what I actually settled with.
But I'm not shure what would work better, especially if you get your mages some more reinv. from items.

Than I found them to be real arrow magnets, so maybe air shield is the better option...

Would you really take sloth? I have enough resource problems without it... those leather armors seem to cost a lot of resources for the protection they provide.That's the point:
Do not use the standard footmen, use the heavy ones and archers in even numbers (hold and attack/ fire xy; placed just left to the center so the archers can get in 3 rounds against normal inf).
While ress.cost is roughly doubled so you get only 66% of the numbers, losses to the front line will be drastically reduced.

Build watchtowers in ressource-rich provinces (hills, forest) and you'll end up with 60..90 ress. Those ressources should be enough to build 1 chariot or a mage plus some troops each turn.
Interestingly enough, in 4 of the 5 testgames I have started with this or a similar layout my home province was forest, the 5th was hills..

By the way - 4 Demons of Fire with "fire at closest" are _really_ devasting - and surprisingly accurat, so friendly fire is negligible ...

yours,
A.

[ November 24, 2003, 07:44: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Teleolurian

November 24th, 2003, 12:59 AM

I'd like to propose a different solution to mind hunt (or whatever it's called). Too many interesting Dom1 Posts had a long segue of 'I'd do it, but the vulnerability to mind hunt sucks'.

How about a Construction 6, Astral 3 Helmet with:

Protection: 2
Defense: -1
Immunity to mind hunt/(magic duel?) and feeblemind.

Restricting use of astral doesn't sound very good to me, since the reason I have these mages on the field is in order to use things like Star Fires. The immunity to feeblemind (and therefore the dreaded Black Bow) increases the usefulness. Of course, something like this should have a moderately high gem cost to counteract this gross specific protection... it should at least be more expensive than the bow is.

November 24th, 2003, 01:24 AM

Perhaps the effect of Mind Duel should be lessened. Instead of death or permanant affliction. (This is just the mind duel spell; not mind hunt)

If a mage is the subject of a Mind Duel and loses; he is then affected by a powerful paralyze as his mind is overwhelmed but does not die; unless they are overrun. It doesn't cause Morale Failure or Routing behavior but any positives are no longer counted (Standard, etc).

That would make the mages useful and not a throw away of economy. Or you could make Mind Duel take longer to effect.

I think providing a total immunity would hurt those who invest a marked amount of points into Astral. If you look at the astral selection spells are useful; but nothing truly powerful. Even Stellar Cascades (which is one of the best and most widely used spells if you happen to be a Communion Friendly race and even very valuable if you are not) is strong but not overpowering.

The thorn of mind duel should NOT affect race/pretender construction by avoiding it completely but how to deal with it. Perhaps the answer is to give those with base astral some easy access to Communion or units that allow easier communion.

[ November 23, 2003, 23:33: Message edited by: Zen ]

Joonie73

November 24th, 2003, 01:36 AM

I still have never seen a magic duel. Does AI ever do it on its own? Do I have to script my astral mages to do it?

Originally posted by PvK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
...

Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked. I do. I think it's interesting. On the other hand, I understand the objections, and think it'll be good if/when it's a spell that like all others, can be easily modded out of the game if players prefer it not be there.

PvK <hr /></blockquote>

Jasper

November 24th, 2003, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by apoger:
Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked. I like Magic Duel, despite the limitations on Pretender design it induces. It's a decent limitation on Astral magic, which IMHO is brutally powerfull without it -- it's strong enough as it currently stands. I also like it's flavor, and the way it differentiates Astral from other paths.

Astral magic has some of the most powerfull Evocations, Alterations, and Thaumaturgy.
Star Fires, Stellar Cascades, Ethereal, Luck, Astral Weapon, Astral Shield, Teleport, Gateway, Soul Slay, Mind Hunt. It's got a bunch of good spells that also require other paths too. It's argueably the most powerfull path, despite Gateway and Star Fires being weakened.

My only problem with Magic Duel is that I think it should do 200 fatigue damage rather than kill the loser(s).

November 24th, 2003, 01:38 AM

I have never seen the AI initiate a Magic Duel and yes you do have to script it. Or cast a Mind Hunt.

Kaljamaha

November 24th, 2003, 01:45 AM

I've had the AI use Magic Duel against me, quite successfully even. For the whole story, check my post in the "Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it." thread, currently on page two.

K.

Keir Maxwell

November 24th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Jasper:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game?I like Magic Duel,
. . .
My only problem with Magic Duel is that I think it should do 200 fatigue damage rather than kill the loser(s). <hr /></blockquote>Thats a big difference Jasper. If that was what Mind Duel did my objections would decline.

As another poster put - all those discussions on dom1 races that ended with "I would play it except for the vunerability to mind duel." That sentence summerises Marignon race discussions in Dom1.

I love designing and honing races. Doing so for me is closely tied with questions like - does it work in MP? Though I play only a fraction of my designs in MP that is what they exist in relation to. Mind Duel is a killer on Multi-player options. MP needs lots of options or it becomes a bit stale over time what with all the analysis and play that goes on.

And that is why I dislike Mind Duel so much in its current form.

The good news is that banning Mind Duel from use seems to work fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Does banning Mind Duel make Astral too powerful - dunno.

Cheers

Keir

ps. I tend to agree with Jasper that Astral remains one of the most powerful branches of magic.

apoger

November 24th, 2003, 02:43 AM

>That sentence summerises Marignon race discussions in Dom1.

Heh, check out Tein Chi. They are the new poster child for magic duel smack down. Makes Marignon look strong (from an astral standpoint).

I like the fatigue idea, but would suggest 100 rather than 200. If it's 200 and the mage has cast a singe spell, it'll be instant death. Perhaps the new "paralyzed" flag would be better than fatigue?

November 24th, 2003, 02:53 AM

Astral magic has some of the most powerfull Evocations, Alterations, and Thaumaturgy.
Star Fires, Stellar Cascades, Ethereal, Luck, Astral Weapon, Astral Shield, Teleport, Gateway, Soul Slay, Mind Hunt. It's got a bunch of good spells that also require other paths too. It's argueably the most powerfull path, despite Gateway and Star Fires being weakened.

Yes, all those spells that are very good and help to build very strong individuals, they are also mostly low path requirements.
Star Fires 1 Astral
Stellar Cascades 2 Astral
Body Ethereal 1 Astral
Luck 1 Astral
Astral Weapon 1 Astral
Astral Shield 1 Astral

... etc.

All you need is 4 Astral, or even 3 or 2 if you want to try to empower.

I think that Mind Duel is to make the very powerful effects of Astral have a reprecussion and lower the chance of the Supercombatant armies that they have been fighting since Dom1.

Edit: I didn't mean that Astral was not powerful; but with the inclusion of Mind Duel it's power is not overt. You take a chance having Astral as opposed to any other school which has no countermeasure. I had way too many conversations and Posts going on at the time ;/

[ November 24, 2003, 01:14: Message edited by: Zen ]

Graeme Dice

November 24th, 2003, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by apoger:
I like the fatigue idea, but would suggest 100 rather than 200. If it's 200 and the mage has cast a singe spell, it'll be instant death. Perhaps the new "paralyzed" flag would be better than fatigue? That sounds more in tune with my image of a duel on the astral plane. Have them paralyzed for the rest of the battle (60+ turns) with an easily negated MR check to avoid feebleminding.

Keir Maxwell

November 24th, 2003, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by apoger:
>That sentence summerises Marignon race discussions in Dom1.

Heh, check out Tein Chi. They are the new poster child for magic duel smack down. Makes Marignon look strong (from an astral standpoint).
Do I like races with crippling disadvantages or do the sort of races I like tend to have crippling disadvantages?

I love Tien Ch'i but so far I'm under impressed. Inability to find orders that allow the double armed cavalry to do their things is a big part of the problem. It sad when your defining troop type is messed up.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Keir

Jasper

November 24th, 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
I love Tien Ch'i but so far I'm under impressed. Inability to find orders that allow the double armed cavalry to do their things is a big part of the problem. It sad when your defining troop type is messed up.I find their 25 gold cavalry, composite Bow, Lance, prot 14, and strategic move 3 to be good. True, the kinds of orders that would really take advantage of the combined lance/bow are too conditional for pre plotted movement. Still I find either setting them with no orders or with orders to attack rear depending on what I expect them to face to be effective.

What sort of order to you envision that would really help them?

November 24th, 2003, 09:43 AM

The question was not directed at me, but I was thinking about the "fire and attack" order. We now have "fire and flee", "hold and attack", so "fire and attack" where a unit would fire its missile weapon for two or three turns (or two or three times I guess for crossbows) and then switch to attacking seems logical. And useful, not only for Tien Chi, but for friendly fire mishaps as well, for example, when you're facing a weak army and don't need a constant barrage of arrows/bolts.
I'm also thinking about legionnaires, as this was their standard tactic historically. If the enemy is not in range, then the squad would approach that turn, as missiles do in general. But it would suit Tien Chi cavalry even better, as they would cause disorder with their bows first, and then charge the shaken formations with lances. Very effective in theory.

[ November 24, 2003, 07:54: Message edited by: HJ ]

Humer

November 24th, 2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by apoger:
Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked. I like mind duel. Astral is said to be the most powerful Arcana (in manual, if I'm not mistaken). There's nothing like having your mages picked up one by one by a superior astral mage. It really makes you think strategy. Really. It pisses me off, but I tend to take it as a learning experience.

Counter-balance-wise other paths have better summons and mass-destruction spells. What astral can do to that end?

Dabble in astral and be ready to pay the price. Master the astral and be one to collect the price. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

- Humer

Wendigo

November 24th, 2003, 11:33 AM

Astral is brutal in the end game, easily the most powerful field excluding Blood summons, and it also has some good tricks for early expansion vs inddies. The good thing about astral is its versatility, and the fact that the related ward can only protect to a certain degree.
I would be willing to prove the point vs anyone that thinks otherwise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Concur with most of Jasper's points. I like having Magic duel in the game (and this from a player that has spent quite some time playing a 2nd tier astral nation), tho the effects from a lost duel are open to debate & suggestions.

I cannot see how some players claim that 'banning Magic Duel increases options', IMO it does the opposite: every single SC pretender will be designed with some astral proficiency because it gives both mobility & the *best* combat booster spells. It's the best magic to have on a SC with the risk removed, and gives Mind Hunt immunity as a bonus.

[ November 24, 2003, 09:34: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

PDF

November 24th, 2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Teleolurian:
I'd like to propose a different solution to mind hunt (or whatever it's called). Too many interesting Dom1 Posts had a long segue of 'I'd do it, but the vulnerability to mind hunt sucks'.

How about a Construction 6, Astral 3 Helmet with:

Protection: 2
Defense: -1
Immunity to mind hunt/(magic duel?) and feeblemind.

Restricting use of astral doesn't sound very good to me, since the reason I have these mages on the field is in order to use things like Star Fires. The immunity to feeblemind (and therefore the dreaded Black Bow) increases the usefulness. Of course, something like this should have a moderately high gem cost to counteract this gross specific protection... it should at least be more expensive than the bow is. Won't it be even simpler to add a "Mind Blank" spell (Enchantment 4 (?)- Astral 1 or 2) that will have the same effect ?
So we would have a magic counter to a magic threat, like Fireballs has Fire Resist, etc...

Humer

November 24th, 2003, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
Won't it be even simpler to add a "Mind Blank" spell (Enchantment 4 (?)- Astral 1 or 2) that will have the same effect ?
So we would have a magic counter to a magic threat, like Fireballs has Fire Resist, etc... Better yet, make the "Mind Blank"-spell cause feeblemindness of battle duration: "No magic duel... durrrr...*drools* " http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

- Humer

Chris Byler

November 24th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Humer:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by apoger:
Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked. I like mind duel. Astral is said to be the most powerful Arcana (in manual, if I'm not mistaken). There's nothing like having your mages picked up one by one by a superior astral mage. It really makes you think strategy. Really. It pisses me off, but I tend to take it as a learning experience.

Counter-balance-wise other paths have better summons and mass-destruction spells. What astral can do to that end?

<hr /></blockquote>Don't underestimate the Angelic Host.

But the main problem is not that astral isn't useful to mages that have it: it's that it's too dangerous to mages that have it, especially if they represent a large fraction of a country's magical power.

Dabble in astral and be ready to pay the price. Master the astral and be one to collect the price. That works fine if you have a choice. Marignon and T'ien Ch'i don't.

I don't have any problem with the loser of a Magic Duel dying: what I have a problem with is the winner walking away completely free.

I think that any time a magic duel occurs, there should be a chance that the astral energies used during the duel will attract the attention of horrors. This results in a chance of the winner becoming horror marked (or the strength of his horror mark increasing, if he is already horror marked and they come in variable strengths), and a chance of a horror materializing in the vicinity of the winner. Both effects should rise with the sum of the combatants' astral levels (so a duel between two Astral-9 gods will almost certainly horror mark the winner and is likely to attract a Doom Horror; in the case of the horror attracting effect, both the chance of attracting a horror and the strength of horror attracted should rise with the power of the combatants).

This still doesn't save Celestial Masters or Grand Masters from being harassed by packs of lizard shamans, astral sages or crystal priestesses, but it does save them from being gunned down by the dozen by a single archtheurg, astrologer or starspawn (or at least make it risky for the professional duelist).

A chance for the winner to be feebleminded (and a large chance that he takes 100+ fatigue damage - one duel per caster per battle unless you have strong reinvig) would help too, but not be nearly as cool. Although the feeblemind part does recall the old saying about knife fights - the winner is the one who goes to the hospital (or in this case, mental hospital).

I'd kind of like to see a Helm of Mind Shielding - protects against Magic Duel and everything else that doesn't affect mindless units - but it wouldn't really solve the magic duel problems, IMO. You can't practically equip every commander with them.

SurvivalistMerc

November 24th, 2003, 11:31 PM

Chris,

I actually don't like your horror mark suggestion. It would allow a weak astral being such as one of the Ry'leh assassins to cause a horror mark on a Pretender much more powerful in astral than the assassin. I don't see this as remotely desirable.

Horror marks on sages or shamen...bah...what's the use?

I usually have astral 3 or so on my pretender. I just keep him out of combat.

As an aside, does anyone have a chart of the relative chances of winning/losing an astral duel given given powers vying for success?

Astral 1 vs Astral 3?

Astral 2 vs. 3?
Astral 1 vs. 4?

I'm curious as to how this generally plays out.

Chris Byler

November 24th, 2003, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
Chris,

I actually don't like your horror mark suggestion. It would allow a weak astral being such as one of the Ry'leh assassins to cause a horror mark on a Pretender much more powerful in astral than the assassin. I don't see this as remotely desirable.

He can already do this by casting the spell Horror Mark (no MR save, IIRC). You could make the chance of this effect lower for very unbalanced duels (which are presumably over more quickly) - perhaps tie it solely to the lower of the two combatants' astral skills. 9 vs 1 attracts no more horror attention than 1 vs 1, but 9 vs 9 has the doom horrors drawing straws for who gets to eat the winner.

Horror marks on sages or shamen...bah...what's the use?

Well, I think the threat of a horror materializing near the winner would be a bigger problem in that case. Because after it eats the shaman, it is probably still hungry. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I usually have astral 3 or so on my pretender. I just keep him out of combat.

That is, of course, one possible strategy - for your pretender. Do you play Marignon or T'ien Ch'i? Would you suggest keeping all their astral mages out of combat? In the case of Marignon, that is all their mages except the inquisitors and initiates, none of which have more than 1 level of magic. You can't lead very many magic beings with 1 level of non-astral magic.

As an aside, does anyone have a chart of the relative chances of winning/losing an astral duel given given powers vying for success?

Good question. I'd like to see it too.

But if the challenger is both cheaper and more skilled (not hard to do against a CM), or cheaper and equally skilled, then it obviously favors the challenger on a cost killed/cost lost basis.

That isn't even counting the possibility of star children assassinating with Magic Duel.

Astral 1 vs Astral 3?

Astral 2 vs. 3?
Astral 1 vs. 4?

I'm curious as to how this generally plays out. So am I, but:
* if the bias for unequal skills is small, cheap astral-1s (shaman, crystal priestess) are the preferred duelist
* if the bias for unequal skills is large, astral-3s (4 with the right randoms) are the preferred duelist (Starspawn, Astrologer, Archtheurg)
* in either case Grand Masters and Celestial Masters get easily killed for relatively low cost.

The only situation that would make magic duel not that big a threat between most mages is if the defender had a substantial advantage (perhaps even enough to make up for a small skill difference). Like, attacker's skill + dice compares to defender's skill + dice + 1, ties result in the deaths of both combatants. Then it would only be the Astral 6+ gods that could fight half a dozen duels every battle without breaking a sweat.

But I don't think it actually works that way.