CherryMod Thread

[Saber Cherry]

Hello! I'm going to make a mod for Dominions 2, doing some things like rebalancing light/heavy infantry as I see fit=) But, the details won't be announced until I see the contents of patch 1, as there might be some official changes.

However, I WILL say what would be useful to me as a modder, that I don't think are currently possible:

1) Visible fields in armor that allow it to affect attack, precision, and gold cost (currently, the only fields are resources, protection, defense, and encumbrance, AFAIK).

2) New unit ability, "Upkeep", set as a percentage. Most units would stay at default of 1/15 cost, but you could give a unit the "Upkeep" ability to set it at 130% of normal or 40% of normal or whatever. Alternately, this could be a floating-point unit stat, that you could see by right-clicking on the unit's name or something. Upkeep should always be visible on the unit screen, anyway, so you don't get confused about the costs of keeping Black Hawks or whatever...

3) New unit ability, "Forager". This would also be a percentage, allowing you to give some units the ability to consume 70% of the normal supply, or whatever... even better, supply usage would be a great unit stat.

4) If this cannot be accomplished with a mod already, the ability to rescale supply levels, so that units eat 10X as much, castles hold 10X as much, items generate 10X as much, pillaging generates 10X as much, and provinces yield 10X as much. Alternately, processing supply as a float instead of an int would accomplish the same thing=)

If the engine and modding tools support these things, I'll make good use of them=) If not... well, some of them can be gotten around, it would just be a lot easier to set an attack reduction for an armor type than for every unit using that armor type.

If you have any suggestions as to what you'd like to see in a mod (that can realistically be accomplished), feel free to post them here! Just don't assume I'll include them gratuitously=)

-Cherry

[Truper]

This something I've been wondering/worrying about. Its whether the whole modding concept will make it harder than it already is to get MP games going. There has been hardly any reponse to the MP game thread, and as far as I can see things can only get worse if player A says "I wanna play standard Dom", B says "I wanna play Cherry Mod", C says "I wanna play Mortifer Mod" and D says "I think Cherry Mod does X better, but Motifer Mod does Y better, so I wanna make my own mod that combines the two and play that". For myself, I was perfectly happy with Illwinter as final arbiter of what does or doesn't belong in Dominions.

What do people think about this issue?

[Saber Cherry]

That's not really fair. The standard for multiplayer games will always be the vanilla game, which is why it is important for the official Version to be well-balanced, and mod tools should never be relied upon. Even if there was a PERFECT mod that everyone who played agreed was absolute perfection, most people would still play the original. Unless you want to play a specific mod, I don't think the presence of mods will ever make it dfficult for you to start or join a game.

Since the majority of Dominions-playing is offline, though, mods would not cause any conflict in most games=)

-Cherry

P.S. The lack of response in the MP thread may be partly due to people lacking the full game. I don't have the game yet, for example.

[ November 19, 2003, 19:52: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Nerfix]

Truper:
My thougths exactly. IMO the developpers should fix the "blazing red issues". I was also happy with Illwinter as final arbiter of what does or doesn't belong in Dominions. Personaly, the idea of a tolkien mod just disgusts me, even if nobody forces me to play it.

But you ppl can do WE you wan't. I'm not forced to touch your mods.

[ November 19, 2003, 20:00: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
Personaly, the idea of a tolkien mod just disgusts me, even if nobody forces me to play it.

But you ppl can do WE you wan't. I'm not forced to touch your mods. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My plans to build a Middle Earth/Tolkien mod for Dom disgust you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif - perhaps you might have been better to keep that to yourself?

Do me a favour and don't bother to explain why.

Come now! No need for people to start throwing around comments like that. The beauty of a mod is you are not forced to play it, know it exists, let it have sex with your wife or eat cornflakes!

I would hope that the Mod's don't become standard but an added flavor to change and diversify the game if (and I highly doubt any time soon) the game becomes stale or the balance an issue.

The only real issue I see, is that in the age of "Modding" people want to play a certain way or with a race and once they recieve the tools *They* won't play any other way since they know the ins and outs of it and they are more likely to win. That isn't saying that everyone that mods, does this. But it's the general theme.

If a Mod ever becomes standard in MP or SP and the features raved about. That simply clues the Developers into what the community desires.

Don't rip on those Modheads any more than people should rip on SPers or PvPers. Everyone is different, at least until the Inquisition comes.

[Saber Cherry]

My happy-happy thread has become polluted with meanness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Maybe if I mention the new "Lions and Lambs" Pangea theme, where cute forest animals unite to spread a dominion of love, the unhappy people will become smiley? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

Maybe if I mention the new "Lions and Lambs" Pangea theme, where cute forest animals unite to spread a dominion of love, the unhappy people will become smiley? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry to be a cynic but wouldn't the Lions eat the Lambs? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So instead of blood slaves Lions would carry around pet lambs and eat them at the start of the battle to get bonuses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Don't worry, be happy . . .

Keir

[ November 19, 2003, 20:51: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[DominionsFan]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Nerfix:
Personaly, the idea of a tolkien mod just disgusts me, even if nobody forces me to play it.

But you ppl can do WE you wan't. I'm not forced to touch your mods. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My plans to build a Middle Earth/Tolkien mod for Dom disgust you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif - perhaps you might have been better to keep that to yourself?

Do me a favour and don't bother to explain why. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hell yeah! I want to play with a LotR mod! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Johan K]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

1) Visible fields in armor that allow it to affect attack, precision, and gold cost (currently, the only fields are resources, protection, defense, and encumbrance, AFAIK).

2) New unit ability, "Upkeep", set as a percentage. Most units would stay at default of 1/15 cost, but you could give a unit the "Upkeep" ability to set it at 130% of normal or 40% of normal or whatever. Alternately, this could be a floating-point unit stat, that you could see by right-clicking on the unit's name or something. Upkeep should always be visible on the unit screen, anyway, so you don't get confused about the costs of keeping Black Hawks or whatever...

3) New unit ability, "Forager". This would also be a percentage, allowing you to give some units the ability to consume 70% of the normal supply, or whatever... even better, supply usage would be a great unit stat.

4) If this cannot be accomplished with a mod already, the ability to rescale supply levels, so that units eat 10X as much, castles hold 10X as much, items generate 10X as much, pillaging generates 10X as much, and provinces yield 10X as much. Alternately, processing supply as a float instead of an int would accomplish the same thing=)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, Cherry chan. I'm glad you are planning some modding, it would be boring if we did enable modding and no one made a mod anyway.

I'll see what we can do to help you out, but our first modding patch will be very basic and things like modding of armor and weapon types will probably not be supported. BTW, there is no resource stat for armors, it is a unit stat instead. We have the armors' resource values scribbled down on a paper somewhere.

3. Changing supplies usage can be done already to some extent. For instance the fey boar generates 20 supplies and the fat celetial servant eats like 3 men even though he cannot starve.

4. This can be done for some things, but not all, so I don't know if any rescaling would be possible yet.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Johan K:
BTW, there is no resource stat for armors, it is a unit stat instead. We have the armors' resource values scribbled down on a paper somewhere.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Lazy, lazy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Wow, that would have saved you so much time if you had associated resources with armors and weapons, and let the game auto-calculate unit resource costs! But if you did it the hard way, I can too. Or more likely, I'll write a program to autogen unit files in the correct format, by merging the base unit costs with the armor costs (that I will put in armor files in my own proprietary format http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ).

Another thing I'd like to add is magic site descriptions - that would be fun=) If/when magic sites become moddable, I think there's already a text field in the sites that I can fill in=) That would be a lot of work, though!

Well, Cherry chan. I'm glad you are planning some modding, it would be boring if we did enable modding and no one made a mod anyway.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hopefully it'll make things easier for you guys, too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-Cherry

[Edi]

Nerfix, there is no need to start pissing on everyone else just because you don't like the idea of mods. As you said yourself, you won't be forced to touch them anyway, and if they are available, others who want to can do so while you play the vanilla Version.

As for the Tolkien mod, yay, I'd like to see that!

Edi

[RadiantFleet]

I enjoy mods personally. They add variety to the game, let you experience new things, and certainly add life to a game. As for making multiplayer more difficult, I disagree. I have participated in many multiplayer games on platforms that support heavy modding. Generally a short hand is developed to specify the terms of the game which makes things go fairly quickly during setup. It does help if the game developers place some code in the game to verify that everyone is using the same config files (ie acting as an honest broker that everyone has the same setup), but this is certainly not required. Frequently, known cheaters and abUsers become outcasts and can only find games with fellow cheaters and abUsers.

P.S. I also would love to see a tolkien themed mod. I could see it being a fun mod, especially if you made sauron have a ton of troops etc. with the allied races of good forced to confront him. It could be a great strategic and tactical challenge.

[DominionsFan]

Originally posted by RadiantFleet:
I enjoy mods personally. They add variety to the game, let you experience new things, and certainly add life to a game. As for making multiplayer more difficult, I disagree. I have participated in many multiplayer games on platforms that support heavy modding. Generally a short hand is developed to specify the terms of the game which makes things go fairly quickly during setup. It does help if the game developers place some code in the game to verify that everyone is using the same config files (ie acting as an honest broker that everyone has the same setup), but this is certainly not required. Frequently, known cheaters and abUsers become outcasts and can only find games with fellow cheaters and abUsers.

P.S. I also would love to see a tolkien themed mod. I could see it being a fun mod, especially if you made sauron have a ton of troops etc. with the allied races of good forced to confront him. It could be a great strategic and tactical challenge. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup yup, but the mod tools MUST SUPPORT to disable any spells! A tolkien mod with spells makes no sense for example.

[Joonie73]

Cherry, can you give me a detailed instructions on how to change unit stats? I want to boost up Niefel giants a bit.

[Saber Cherry]

No http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

You have to wait for patch 1; modding is not yet supported=)

[Joonie73]

Cherry, I wouldn't trust your mods though. Your suggested mod for AOWSM was crazy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
No http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

You have to wait for patch 1; modding is not yet supported=) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[Saber Cherry]

New unit for my Japanese theme: Sumo Wrestlers! Capitol only.

Weapons:
Belly - Damage 0, Attack 5 (how do you miss with a belly?), Defense -4

Armor:
Belly - Prot 5, Defense -4 (cumulative with the the belly weapon defense), Encumbrance 8
Sumo Gi - Prot 2, Defense 0, Encumbrance 0

Base Stats:

Cost: 25

Size 3 (needs 3 supply)
HP 15
STR 14
ATT 10
DEF 10
PRT 0
PRE 8
ENC 3
MRL 14

Trample, Berserk +1

[Joonie73]

Cherry, are you a hentai fan? LOL.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
the mod tools MUST SUPPORT to disable any spells! A tolkien mod with spells makes no sense for example. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gandalf cast a fireball in the Hobbit and the Witch King casting darkness would be ok by my reading. However there is very little overt magic in Middle Earth and if I put a mod together it will reflect this one way or another - quite possibly by not giving most nations mages. There will be very few magic Users (Some Elves, Gandalf, Sauron, Saruman, the Witch King and a handful of others - and they will primarily be casting ritual spells.

Good to hear people are interested. I wouldn't be suprised if we see as few Tolkien mods over time.

Cheers

Keir

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
New unit for my Japanese theme: Sumo Wrestlers! Capitol only.

Weapons:
Belly - Damage 0, Attack 5 (how do you miss with a belly?), Defense -4

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Assuming this is a no-hands weapon, shouldn't they also have two fists?

Also, if you are doing a Japanese theme, I hope it will include ninjas. There should be at least three types: ninja warriors (a normal stealthy troop, maybe capitol only), ninja agents (spy and assassin in one unit), and ninja masters (with one random elemental magic; ninjas were believed to employ a variety of mystical techniques. These should be capitol only). One of the capitol sites could be a ninja fortress.

I'm assuming a basically Shinto priesthood (at least for the default theme; if we're creating a new nation, we could create special themes too.)

They could even get some national summons (kitsune would be cool)


Armor:
Belly - Prot 5, Defense -4 (cumulative with the the belly weapon defense), Encumbrance 8
Sumo Gi - Prot 2, Defense 0, Encumbrance 0

Base Stats:

Cost: 25

Size 3 (needs 3 supply)
HP 15
STR 14
ATT 10
DEF 10
PRT 0
PRE 8
ENC 3
MRL 14

Trample, Berserk +1 <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">25 gold for a size 3 berserking trampler? Compare the minotaur at 50...

They should have more strength, though. Sumo wrestlers can pick up and throw other sumo wrestlers. That takes a lot of strength.


Of course, I'm assuming the sumo wrestler isn't just a joke. A Japanese theme would be cool, but I don't know of sumo wrestlers ever having been used on the battlefield. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It'd be awesome to have Miyamoto Musashi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, or other historical/legendary figures as national heroes, though. (Or you could go for more fictionalized, fantastic accounts and have Hitokiri Battousai...)

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Also, if you are doing a Japanese theme, I hope it will include ninjas. There should be at least three types: ninja warriors (a normal stealthy troop, maybe capitol only), ninja agents (spy and assassin in one unit), and ninja masters (with one random elemental magic; ninjas were believed to employ a variety of mystical techniques.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, don't worry! I will most certainly have ninjas! Several types=)


I'm assuming a basically Shinto priesthood (at least for the default theme; if we're creating a new nation, we could create special themes too.)<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's my biggest problem - I'm not all that creative in the magician area. Other than ninja with level-1 fire or level-1 death, and maybe ninja masters with 2?, I'm not sure what sort of mages to give them.


They could even get some national summons (kitsune would be cool)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course=) I'm not sure if national summons will be moddable (at least at first), but there are numerous possiblities, especially multi-headed dragons. Maybe Tanuki (cheap, stealthy, glamour) as well.

25 gold for a size 3 berserking trampler? Compare the minotaur at 50...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, yeah, but with only 5 protection, no defense, and 15 HP they won't Last long=) Compare to Arco Chariot instead.

But, yeah, the sumo wrestler was kind of a joke=) It would be fun to see them in the Arena, though, maybe up against an Earth Mother=)

It'd be awesome to have Miyamoto Musashi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, or other historical/legendary figures as national heroes, though. (Or you could go for more fictionalized, fantastic accounts and have Hitokiri Battousai...) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, heh, heh... young Battousai, of course. A dual-class samurai-assassin with Quickness +300% (Godlike Speed) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif AFAIK, there are no national hero assassins yet...

Oh, he'd get an x50 patrolling effect, too, though that would be a waste, unless you were a crzy pacifist=) Patrolling without killing populace might be a nice hero ability.

Any help or suggestions would certainly be welcome! I plan to add several themes - for example:

Man "Peasant Revolution", with no national units but most normal indy units at castles, cheaper than normal indies, and only new custom human pretenders (no god-like pretenders). Basically, the world's inhabitants grow tired of gods running roughshod all over.

Mictlan "Rise of the Amazons" featuring no Mictlan units, but all the Amazons.

Atlantis "Aqua Regia", where most national units are merfolk, most aquatic-only units are sacred, and the amhpibious Atlantians are no longer holy, sacred, or dominant.

A new Ermor all-undead theme, "Vengeful Dead" (isn't that also a spell?) in which the low-level undead lose their mindless status, and destroy their controlling necromancers / undead priests.

Abysia: "Gates of Hell" - the Abysian blood economy gets a little too aggressive, too many summoned demonic commanders are empowered in Blood, and the demons take over - consuming their masters (Warlocks and Demonbreds), as well as all the humanbreds! Warlocks and Demonbreds are replaced by buildable demon magii, all the humanbreds are gone, some lesser demons are buildable as units, and a new "Demon Gate" site is added. All mortal Abysinian commanders get weak horror-marks.

However, all of these will feature only existing units, with altered stats (including the new pretenders). With the Japanese theme (probably "Rising Sun", unless someone can think of a clever name) I'll need a lot of new sprites, unless I can steal them from Shogun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

-Cherry

P.S. Just because I'm using this thread to collect ideas, I think I'll add this, from another thread.

***

There are a few units that I think would be extremely useful... if only! Those are Villians, Woodsmen, Hoburg Militia, Burgmeister Guards, and land-based Shamblers. I never build any of them, except the Woodsmen (because of their 11 precision). What would make them useful:

Villians, Hoburg Militia, and Woodsmen: These are stealth units with no stealth commanders! I would love these things if the provinces included stealth commanders, costing less than ~3gp per unit (as opposed to the Druid, which costs 90 and leads 10, for 9gp per unit... and requires a temple and lab... crazy!). What's wrong with a 30 gold, 10 leadership (or 40 gold, 25 leadership) Chief Villian, Hoburg Militia Captain, or Woodsman Huntmaster?

Shamblers: The ones on land are amphibious, with no amphibious commanders! That makes NO sense. Sure, you might be able to find a water mage, but where there are Shamblers, there should be shambler commanders.

Burgmeister Guards: These are like heavy infantry, just not as good. Now if their resource cost scaled down a bit, and they consumed less supply than humans, I'd build them. If I could ever find them in a resource-rich province... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

***

So, I'll probably make the above changes (except the supply scaling) unless they are made to the base game.

[ November 23, 2003, 23:09: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Lazy, lazy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Wow, that would have saved you so much time if you had associated resources with armors and weapons, and let the game auto-calculate unit resource costs! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When we associated encumbrance and defence with armors instead of units we had already made some hundred units (that was early in Dom I). It was a chore to go through them all. Resources was not remade at the same time and now it feels kind of owerwhelming to think about.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
When we associated encumbrance and defence with armors instead of units we had already made some hundred units (that was early in Dom I). It was a chore to go through them all. Resources was not remade at the same time and now it feels kind of owerwhelming to think about. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From a programming perspective it should be simple... Add a resources field to all equipment, add a method to units to to calculate resource cost based on carried equipment. Compare the computed values with the current resource cost for all units. If you like what you see, refactor to call the resource method rather than the hard coded resource variable, and then remove remove all the now extraneous unit resources. Perhaps keep resources around as a variable on units, so you can it to the resource sum if you want to varry resource cost aside from equipment.

[Saber Cherry]

I know doubt the tools for modding scales will allow even 10% of what I mention here, but unless you speak up, you never know=)

Things I would like to add:

Rebalance scale design point costs, if possible, like this:
+45,+40,+35,0,+35,+40,+45 for Heat/Cold
-35,-40,-45,0,+45,+50,+55 for Magic/Drain
-45,-40,-35,0,+35,+30,+25 for Luck/Unluck

This rebalance would make the currently attractive endpoints of luck/unluck less attractive, and the unattractive magic/drain and heat/cold endpoints more attractive. Note, these are the INCREMENTAL costs, not cumulative. Currently all the scales cost 40,40,40,0,40,40,40 (with the 40's positive or negative, depending on the scale).

Luck scale affecting afflictions using this algorithm: (Damage*(10-Luck)/(10*HP))=chance of affliction. That's a 10% difference per scale. For example, a 25 HP unit taking 5 damage in a +3 luck scale province would have a (5*(10-3)/(10*25))=14% rather than default 20% chance of gaining an affliction.

Magic scale affecting gem production, with randomized gem output, with sites getting +-10% average output per magic/drain scale. Production would be like this: Every gem would change to 2 coin flips. So, a 1-gem site would have a 25% chance of making no gems, 50% of 1 gems, and 25% chance of 2 gems, each turn. Magic/drain would unbalance the coins, so that a neutral scale coin would have a 50%-50% head-tail chance, and a +1 magic would have 55%-45% head-tail distributions.

Example: A site makes 2 Earth gems, 1 water gem, and is in Drain-2. Coins are thus 40% heads, and 60% tails. This generates 4 Earth coins, and 2 Water coins.

Using these unbalanced coins...

4 Earth coins flip for:

13% 0 Earth Gems
35% 1 Earth Gems
35% 2 Earth Gems
15% 3 Earth Gems
2.5% 4 Earth Gems

2 Water coins flip for:

36% 0 Water Gems
48% 1 Water Gems
16% 2 Water Gems

This generates an average of 1.6 Earth, and .8 Water gems, max of 4 and 2 and min of 0 and 0. Note the average 20% reduction from the original 2 Earth, 1 Water due to the drain scale unbalancing the coins.

This coin-gem system would also be great for use with a potential map gem-richness setting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Note that the player never sees coins, or knows about coins, they are all behind the scenes.

Also note that if +-10% seems too drastic, +-5% could be used instead... or the scale could simply be made more costly.

-Cherry

[ November 23, 2003, 07:59: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Jasper:
From a programming perspective it should be simple... Add a resources field to all equipment, add a method to units to to calculate resource cost based on carried equipment. Compare the computed values with the current resource cost for all units. If you like what you see, refactor to call the resource method rather than the hard coded resource variable, and then remove remove all the now extraneous unit resources. Perhaps keep resources around as a variable on units, so you can it to the resource sum if you want to varry resource cost aside from equipment. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Many units have resource costs not only dependent on the equipment. The resources of Jotund and other non human beings are arbitrarily altered to compensate for size and other materials. We would have to go through all units. Not difficult but very boring and some bugs would not discovered. On the other hand we have a merry group of people here that wouldn't mind pointing out misses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Minotaur Lord was one of the units that were missed in the previous encumbrance change. I believe you remember him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Many units have resource costs not only dependent on the equipment. The resources of Jotund and other non human beings are arbitrarily altered to compensate for size and other materials. We would have to go through all units. Not difficult but very boring and some bugs would not discovered. On the other hand we have a merry group of people here that wouldn't mind pointing out misses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The Minotaur Lord was one of the units that were missed in the previous encumbrance change. I believe you remember him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If setup algorithmically all the individualized unit resource differences would be calculated, and you'd only need to review the shorter list of those actually differing. This would be much simpler to maintain/extend, and much easier to catch simple mistakes.

It'd be tedious, but get JK to do it! Tedium is what programmers are for. ;-)

[LordArioch]

I thought of some interesting themes to suggest...but I think you already have them.
Pangea: All animal units, maybe werewolf mages...DRAGONFLY SCOUTS!!!
and an undead theme where you pay gold and resources to build the undead?

Also, perhaps an all etheral theme...it might be hard to do though since most etheral units are undead or very powerful.
A theme involving the aesir somehow perhaps...vanheim with giants.
And a nation where every unit has a bow and good precision...."Reign of Arrows" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Maybe for caelum.

Oh..and I want the Black Coven too...I'm thinking Ulm with death/earth mages and unholy priests maybe. Now that would be a cool Ulm theme. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Just imagine if they could get wights with black steel plate on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Be really cool if they reanimated undead with black steel plate.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
and an undead theme where you pay gold and resources to build the undead?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Base Ermor is fairly similar to this, as you pay for the priests that do the reanimation. It would be interesting to have a "Kingdom of the dead" though, where they go about living their lives like normal people and are every bit as reluctant to go into battle.

Also, perhaps an all etheral theme...it might be hard to do though since most etheral units are undead or very powerful.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, Soul Gate is pretty much this. It has the disadvantage of requiring MR checks for many of the weapons to hit.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by LordArioch:
I thought of some interesting themes to suggest...but I think you already have them.
Pangea: All animal units, maybe werewolf mages...DRAGONFLY SCOUTS!!!<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah I've been thinking along those lines as well. Some sort of "Gaia", "Devolution", or "Return to Nature" theme, with no human units except druids. And inverted cavalry, where miniature ponies charge into battle riding specially-bred human linebackers. Centaurs and Satyrs might still be tolerated, but there would be mostly "Battle Bunnies", "Squirrel Soldiers", and "Mousie Militia". National heroes would include the Vorpal Bunny of Death from Monty Python's Holy Grail, and of course the immortal Coyote from Roadrunner cartoons. He'd start out feebleminded, though.

Ok, seriously - I've been giving a theme like this some thought, and it's hard for me to figure out how the economics would work out. Why would animals want gold, and with no tools, what would resources do? I want it to be nature versus humanity, so it would include vine ogres and vinemen in addition to animals, but they don't care about that stuff either. I like the dragonfly scouts=)

Hmm... the best way for it to work would be to make animals and vine-creatures spontaneously arise in provinces with high dominion and high magic, and allow the Pangea "Nature" theme to take turmoil, sloth, and unluck (require +3 magic and at least +2 turmoil). But, alternately, it could have intelligent talking animals that want to be paid for their services and wear armor (just not leather armor).

Anyway, non-humanoid themes require a bit more work and thought than more standard themes.

P.S.

By Graeme
It would be interesting to have a "Kingdom of the dead" though, where they go about living their lives like normal people <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps you mean "undying their undeaths"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Yes, I'm going to put in a theme like that. Zombies have figured out how to make baby zombies, and etc. This theme would be best if province population could go negative, to represent a bustling undead population.

[ November 24, 2003, 19:32: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Mind Elemental]

Just making sure -- that Japan theme would be for Tien Chi, right?

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Mind Elemental:
Just making sure -- that Japan theme would be for Tien Chi, right? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately, I think so. It would be fun for Tien Chi and Japan to fight, but it makes more sense to make Japan a Tien Chi theme than a theme for anyone else. Though I've been considering Man too.

[Saber Cherry]

Some preliminary infantry rebalancing thoughts... I'm making the assumption that all humans are different, and the strong ones are given heavy armor, the agile ones are trained as light infantry, and cheap militia is weak, poorly fed, untrained rabble. Non-professional soldiers have low mental discipline and thus low MR, and morale increases with armor and wages. Both of those would increase MY morale. Also, armor interferes with precision and ability to swing weapons accurately.

____... PS LM MM LI MI HI HE LA HA

RES_... 2 3 10 9 15 99 99 6 99
PROT... 1 5 9 8 12 99 99 6 99
GP__... 3 4 6 8 10 12 14 8 10
SUP_... 6 7 8 10 15 20 20 10 15
HP__... 7 8 9 10 10 11 12 9 10
STR_... 8 8 9 10 10 11 11 10 10
ATT_... 6 8 9 11 10 9 10 8 9
DEF_... 7 8 9 11 10 9 10 8 9
MRST... 9 9 9 10 10 10 11 10 10
MRL_... 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 8 9
PREC... 8 8 9 10 9 8 9 11 10
ENC_... 5 5 4 3 3 3 3 3 3
MP__... 1 1 1 2 2 1 1 2 1
AP__... 7 8 9 12 12 12 12 12 12

This is much more clear in the Excel chart, if anyone can host it. These are my preliminary infantry rebalancing thoughts, for rebalancing the base units (on top of which armor/weapons are added). Essentially, these will be basic guidelines - not an "All heavy elite infantry will have these stats" thing. I'd prefer to do stat modifications in the equipment, though.

Translations:

PS=Peasant/Slave
LM/MM=Militia
LI/MI/HI=Infantry
HE=Heavy Elite
LA/HA=Archers

RES, PROT: The maximum values for resources and protection to be considered within this "class".

GP, SUP: The gold cost and supply usage for a unit in this "class". This is not just what the soldier eats, but his entourage, transport, and repair supply considerations as well.

If you have any comments, suggestions, questions, or just can't read the **** thing, feel free to tell me=)

[ November 26, 2003, 05:57: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[LordArioch]

It might help if you tried to add spaces to line up the numbers. Also why are the HI 99 prot? I assume you just mean some high value in general?

EDIT: Oh 99 is a maximum. Just goes to show you can never expect ignorant people like me to read carefully through a whole post before replying to it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It's truely a sad world. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ November 26, 2003, 07:57: Message edited by: LordArioch ]

[Keir Maxwell]

I'm making the assumption that all humans are different, and the strong ones are given heavy armor, the agile ones are trained as light infantry, <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In alot of societies how a soldier fights is determined by social factors more than individual capabilites. Some societies make a more conscious use of their resources and but most are at least as much driven by social standing. Even with Rome it is argued that after a certain date the Praetorian Guard cease to be an elite unit in reality due to the degree of corruption and nepotism involved.

Cheers

Keir

[Endoperez]

About the animal theme, what if they ONLY required resources? Like, wolves costing 1 gp/10 res, and bears 1gp/30 res? The problem comes with castles... If fortress could be replaced with a temple for this theme, it would be good. But a fortress (den? homely cave?) with a building time of 1/cost of 150, no defence rating and no walls inside would work too, if we can mod these things.
But animals would be quite weak versus archers, and most players would just recruit indies for that reason. They do have money... Even with population-killing dominion. Well, the druids would take most of that money, and buildings.

And how would vine men, and nature magic, fit in? Animals/vine men? Vine men with some equipment? A national hero Fenris the Great Wolf, leading an army with Gift of Reasoned Vine Ogre wearing Fenris pelt? Maybe blocking (the creation of) certain items should be considered. Maybe Malrus the Son of Fenris?

Just some weird ideas... It's nice to read all this, but all these things won't fit in one mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

EDIT: can a unit have a cost of zero?

[ November 26, 2003, 10:45: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Endoperez:
About the animal theme, what if they ONLY required resources? Like, wolves costing 1 gp/10 res, and bears 1gp/30 res? The problem comes with castles... If fortress could be replaced with a temple for this theme, it would be good. But a fortress (den? homely cave?) with a building time of 1/cost of 150, no defence rating and no walls inside would work too, if we can mod these things.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That makes quite a lot of sense. Of course, resources would be DIFFERENT to animals - they would be food, habitat, and so forth... so, ideally, the special sites that provide supply to humans would provide resources to animals, and things like the great iron mine would be worthless to animals... farmland/forest/swamp would be high-resource, desert/waste/ocean/mountain would be low. But that's more than the engine can handle=(

It would be interesting, though, for animals to only spend gold recruiting indy units, with all national animal units resource-only. Or all summoned/dominion-spawned, like Ermor.

Thanks for the ideas!

On other notes: Cavalry. The mount's ability to absorb damage and missile fire are discounted in Dominions... if a missile lands on a square full of light cavalry, it will wound a rider (AFAICT). That's unrealistic.

Ideal solution:

Mounted units are all modeled with a rider and mount (like Machaka spider cavalry, and Atlantian lobster cavalry). Each has independant stats, including HP. Every attack rolls to pick which to hit, based on their relative size... so, for example, an arrow landing on a Freak Lord would be MUCH more likely to hit the Freak than the Lord. When one dies, the other appears alone (like War Lobsters after their riders die). This means that the rider can become dismounted. Some attacks, like area-effect attacks, would hit both mount and rider.

CherryMod fix - what I intend to do until mount/rider units are more fully modeled in the Doms II engine:

Add +40% HP to all mounted units, to model the hits and damage that are absorbed by the mount. If this makes cavalry overpowered, I'll increase their gold price a little; but I think cavalry (especially light/medium cav) are unrealistically weak. Oh, and I might add "War Horse" units that spawn when knights are killed (and leave after battle).

-Cherry

Edit. New Japanese pretender: The Great Ninja, a stealthy, cheap, poison-immune, air-shielded assassin with 3 dominion, who spawns ninjas.

[ December 04, 2003, 05:26: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Mind Elemental]

I like the cavalry ideas, especially as a knight's fatigue should go through the roof if he gets dismounted.

Hrm. Why not also give the Japanese a melee samurai pretender? I always wondered at the lack of human pretenders who could kick butt in a fight -- there has to be a god or two out there who emphasises brawn over magic, right?

[Bossemanden]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
CherryMod fix - what I intend to do until mount/rider units are more fully modeled in the Doms II engine:

Add +40% HP to all mounted units, to model the hits and damage that are absorbed by the mount. If this makes cavalry overpowered, I'll increase their gold price a little; but I think cavalry (especially light/medium cav) are unrealistically weak. Oh, and I might add "War Horse" units that spawn when knights are killed (and leave after battle).

-Cherry
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you increase HP by 40% then you should also decrease protection for the heavy cavalry. The horse is usually less well armoured than the rider.
For light/medium it sounds about right though.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Bossemanden:
If you increase HP by 40% then you should also decrease protection for the heavy cavalry. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's tough, since protection is a property of the armor. I might give HC and Knights a smaller HP bonus, instead, like +20%.

New Pretenders:

Warmage - a human rainbow mage, similar to the archmage, but more costly. Starts with Crystal Shield, helmet, Rainbow Armor, Wand of Wild Fire, and a base 4 reinvigoration.

Seeker of Knowledge - another human rainbow mage, with a site-searching bonus. I would like to do one of two things: either allow "autosearch", so that the Seeker automatically detects all magic sites within his level just by visiting a province, without searching... or allow searching at +1 level in all paths (including paths at zero, like holy/unholy). Either would represent his uncanny ability to find magic sites, and penchant for spending all his free time doing so. Both are probably impossible right now.

New Theme:

Gnomes (pangea, ulm, or man theme... not sure which). Small, expensive, highly magical, and with extremely low morale. This race would get a large (~50%) gold income bonus in all provinces, and require order+3 and productivity of at least +1. However, the gnomish units would all be weak, cowardly, and pricey (though with stealth, high defense, and glamour) so other than the powerful national mages, the gnome race would be mostly reliant on hiring indy troops. The Gnome theme would also include a Gold Mine capitol special site.

New Afflictions:

Horribly Disfigured: +2 Morale, Cause Lesser Fear (-4), normal leadership halved.
The unit has such terribly ugly scars on his face that few can bear to look at him. As such, he seeks solace in battle.

Battle Rage: Berserk +1.
Fighting one too many battles and being wounded one too many times has lit the soldier's fires of hatred. He has made a solemn oath that none shall harm him again, and live. Note that this is not necessarily a good thing (on a leader, for example).

I hope I can mod in new afflictions eventually!

Originally posted by Mind Elemental:
Hrm. Why not also give the Japanese a melee samurai pretender? I always wondered at the lack of human pretenders who could kick butt in a fight -- there has to be a god or two out there who emphasises brawn over magic, right? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a good idea. I'm pondering how to make it work. He would have to have some advantage over a non-human supercombattant, like a Wyrm or Manticore... possibly immortality, regeneration, coming pre-equipped with nice stuff (so you don't drop items every time he dies)... humans are quite fragile, as a single high roll can kill them. Awe might be good as well.

-Cherry

[ December 09, 2003, 20:34: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Saber Cherry]

...and, if you haven't noticed, sample mods can be found here: http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/mods.html

Open the .dm file with a text editor to see the mod format.

-Cherry

P.S. One more thing... we probably need a consensus on unit numbering so mods do not conflict. Until there is some universal system, I plan to use the range 10000-10999 for units in any mod I make...

Edit: Until/Unless the number range is extended (currently it maxes at 2500) I will use 2100-2300.

[ December 11, 2003, 06:59: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Gandalf Parker]

I know Im an old hacker (willing to take a hack at it rather than read the manual first) but it seems tome that looking at the files in those first two mods that are downloadable from the Illwinter site is enough information to have me off and running with it.

Did I mention somewhere here that a friend of mine was pushing for a Hoburg race? And that I thought Ulm was a good swap? Not a problem tho I think I would have gone with small ponys instead of hog riders. Still, it looks great.

OH but I see SUCH a HUGE door opening up for the Random Map Cult. I wonder how many of the mod #commands will work in .map files also. Im not sure how yet but I'll think of a way to use this randomly.

[ December 10, 2003, 14:56: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Bossemanden]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
That's tough, since protection is a property of the armor. I might give HC and Knights a smaller HP bonus, instead, like +20%.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds better than +40% at least.

[Saber Cherry]

New Themes:

Nationalism - All national troops are 10% cheaper and get +1 morale; all indy troops get -1 morale. 60 nation points.

Life Domain - All units get +10% HP, +1 reinvigoration. 25 nation points. Requires growth 1 or higher.

Wildgrowth - +10% HP to all units, +50% supply in all provinces, and +1% population per month. 150 nation points. Requires growth 3.

Slave Nation - All units (except leaders) cost 1/4 upkeep, and get -2 morale. 150 nation points; requires sloth 2 or 3.

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
New Themes:

Wildgrowth - +10% HP to all units, +50% supply in all provinces, and +1% population per month. 150 nation points. Requires growth 3.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+1% per month - that's not wild, it's rabbit-quick!

At least, don't make it available to human races... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

(Side note: it would be nice if a part of the pop. loss from death scales, or high taxes, turned up as emigration to neighbouring provinces; of course, it would need balancing, as a big empire might be able to turn taxes up at its center without too much trouble - but then, neigbours of Death nations would get some nice immigration...)

+1% per month - that's not wild, it's rabbit-quick!

At least, don't make it available to human races... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Make the minimump population that it kicks in at 100,000 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


If you made it +.5 per season/month it would be more realistic (30,000 People over the course of a Month produce 150 People. Which is your base capital. Reduce that to a more in mind number of (these people be doing the nastay) 1000 People have 5 (Hah) children per month. 60 Children a year from 1000. 500 Couples produced 60 Children on top of the growth scale. 1 in 8.3 Couples in a year had Children.

I don't know about you; but that seems 'rabbit' enough. Like Teen Pregnancy statistics they warn you about. And that is only HALF your scale Sabre, not even counting the growth scale.

That means

[Saber Cherry]

New Theme:

Dreamers and Schemers - The population is very clever, and people spend their time dreaming up new ideas, studying things that interest them, and schemeing up ways to make money. Unfortunately, nobody wants to do the actual work, or even patrol the streets to ensure safety of the populace, which is especially bad since the schemers will stoop to organized crime to make a buck. Effects: Income bonus +50%, all mages get 1 extra random pick, all non-mage, non-priest leaders get "stealthy +0" or an additional +5 if already stealthy. Province defense costs double. Additional leaders: sage and spy (maybe renamed to "Dreamer" and "Schemer"). All national non-priest leaders cost 15% extra (rounded to the nearest 10, minimum cost of 10). Required scales:

Turmoil 1 or lower
Sloth 3
Luck 1 or higher
Magic 1 or higher

Nation Point Cost: 200 (to be adjusted as needed for balance)


Zen and PhilD - remember, humans are capable of multiple children per birth. And the months in Dominions are of indeterminate length. Also, I always assumed some of the population change came from uncounted rural families moving into or out of the provincial "main city", where they would be counted by the census and taxed, rather than just births and deaths. Finally... magic can do magical things=)

-Cherry

[ December 15, 2003, 21:17: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

On that theme idea; perhaps you could limit the Dominion >4 at creation to illustrate the belief system that is not centered around the God; but on the abstract (Dream'n) and money (Schem'n).

[Saber Cherry]

Good idea, thanks! And possibly some sort of moneylender pretender, "The Great Investor". Not sure what he'd do, though=) Maybe build castles for half down, and 1.9% APR=)

[Saber Cherry]

I've finished a preliminary Version of the Japanese theme, preliminarily called "Rising Sun". If you have a better name or any suggestions, please post them!

New Units:

New Unit:
RS Peasant (Base creature: RS Peasant)

HP: 7 Str: 8
Prot: 0 Att: 8
Mrl: 6 Def: 7
Mrst: 9 Prec: 10
Enc: 6 AP: 6

Weapons: Kama
Items: Straw Hat

Gold: 3 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Militia (Base creature: RS Militia)

HP: 8 Str: 8
Prot: 4 Att: 9
Mrl: 7 Def: 8
Mrst: 9 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Weapons: Te Yari
Items: Hachi, Leather Cuirass

Gold: 5 Res: 4

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Nunchaku
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

(Note: Ronin leave after a battle)

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin (Base creature: RS Ronin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 8 Res: 3

(Note: Ronin leave after a battle)

********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Ashigaru (Base creature: RS Ashigaru)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 9 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Archer (Base creature: RS Samurai Archer)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 10
Mrl: 10 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Wakizashi, Yumi
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 10 Res: 12

********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 16

********************************

New Unit:
RS Light Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 21

********************************

New Unit:
RS Nodachi Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 23

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 28

********************************

New Unit:
RS Dual Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Katana, Katana
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 31

********************************

New Unit:
RS Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 9
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 24

********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 15 Res: 32

********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 8
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 15 Res: 28

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Cavalry (Base creature: RS Samurai Cavalry)

HP: 13 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 14
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 20

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi, Hoof
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 37

********************************

New Unit:
RS Horse Archer (Base creature: RS Horse Archer)

HP: 12 Str: 11
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 24

Mounted

Weapons: Te Yari, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 25 Res: 14

********************************

New Unit:
RS Blind Monk (Base creature: RS Blind Monk)

HP: 9 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 16
Mrst: 14 Prec: 4
Enc: 3 AP: 10

Sacred

Weapons: Iron Fist, Iron Fist, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 30 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0

Weapons: Knife Hand, Nerve Strike, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Nunchaku (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 11
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0

Weapons: Nunchaku, Nunchaku, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 2

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Bo (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0

Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Sai (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0

Weapons: Sai, Sai, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 4

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja (Base creature: RS Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 14
Mrl: 12 Def: 17
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Stealthy 20

Weapons: Ninja to, Sai, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 20 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Commander (Base creature: RS Monk Commander)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 30 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinto Master (Base creature: RS Shinto Master)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 1 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 15 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 3
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Commander (Base creature: RS Samurai Commander)

HP: 12 Str: 10
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 11
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 32

********************************

New Unit:
RS Mounted Commander (Base creature: RS Mounted Commander)

HP: 13 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 16
Mrst: 11 Prec: 12
Enc: 4 AP: 25

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 50 Res: 23

********************************

New Unit:
RS Daimyo (Base creature: RS Daimyo)

HP: 14 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Sai, Hoof
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 80 Res: 35

********************************

New Unit:
RS Sword Saint (Base creature: RS Sword Saint)

HP: 12 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 14
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 11

********************************

New Unit:
RS Geisha (Base creature: RS Geisha)

HP: 9 Str: 9
Prot: 0 Att: 9
Mrl: 12 Def: 6
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 11

Seductress, Stealthy 40

Weapons: Tessen, Kansashi

Gold: 60 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinobi (Base creature: RS Shinobi)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 10 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Spy, Stealthy 30

Weapons: Ninja to, Tanto, Blowgun
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 35 Res: 9

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Assassin (Base creature: RS Ninja Assassin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 13
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 30

Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 50 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame (Base creature: RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame)

HP: 13 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 13
Mrl: 13 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Sacred, Stealthy 30

Magic: Fire 2
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Enchanted Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 130 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Death Ninja (Base creature: RS Death Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 13 Def: 13
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Amphibian, Assassin, Stealthy 30, Fear -4

Magic: Water 1, Death 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 90 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Master (Base creature: RS Ninja Master)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 14 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 35

Magic: Fire 1, Random 2
Weapons: Ninja to, Ninja to, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 160 Res: 11

********************************

New Unit:
RS Wise Man (Base creature: RS Wise Man)

HP: 7 Str: 8
Prot: 0 Att: 8
Mrl: 10 Def: 6
Mrst: 16 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Amphibian 2

Magic: Water 2, Nature 1, Random 2
Weapons: Fist

Gold: 220 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Himura Battosai (Base creature: RS Himura Battosai)

HP: 11 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 17
Mrl: 18 Def: 16
Mrst: 14 Prec: 10
Enc: 2 AP: 12

Hero, Assassin, Stealthy 20, Quickness 150

Weapons: Battosai no Katana
Items: Robe

********************************


New Weapons:

Weapon 'Daikyu'
dam=12, prec=1, hits=1, ammo=12, rng=40, strNotAddedPhysical=1, res=2
new=1
//Mounted samurai longbow

Weapon 'Shuriken'
dam=-2, prec=1, hits=1, pierce=50, poisondam=5, ammo=5, rng=5, res=1
new=1
//poisoned throwing star

Weapon 'Yumi'
dam=11, prec=1, hits=1, ammo=12, rng=35, strNotAddedPhysical=1, res=2
new=1
//infantry archer bow

Weapon 'Knife Hand'
dam=3, att=2, def=1, hits=1, res=1
new=1
//monk attack

Weapon 'Nerve Strike'
dam=-2, att=-2, def=1, hits=1, fatiguedam=100, doesFatigueDam=1
new=1
//monk attack

Weapon 'Iron Fist'
dam=-2, att=3, def=1, hits=2, pierce=50, res=5
new=1
//blind monk attack - armor piercing

Weapon 'Bo'
dam=2, def=4, length=4, hands=2, hits=1, res=1
new=1
//like a quarterstaff

Weapon 'Katana'
dam=7, att=1, def=1, length=2, hands=1, hits=1, res=8
new=1
//samurai sword

Weapon 'Kama'
dam=5, att=1, def=-1, length=1, hits=1, res=1
new=1
//like a scythe - a peasant tool

Weapon 'Naginata'
dam=8, att=1, def=-1, length=5, hands=2, hits=1, res=7
new=1
//like a halberd

Weapon 'Ninja to'
dam=5, att=2, length=1, hands=1, hits=1, res=3
new=1
//ninja sword - too thin for blocking

Weapon 'Nunchaku'
dam=2, att=1, length=1, hands=1, hits=2, res=1
new=1
//2 pieces of wood connected by a short chain

Weapon 'Sai'
dam=2, def=3, hands=1, hits=1, res=2
new=1
//3-pronged sword catcher, like the "main gauche"

Weapon 'Battosai no Katana'
dam=7, att=1, def=1, length=2, hands=2, hits=2, pierce=50
new=1
//Himura Battosai's sword, from his assassin days
//He holds it with 2 hands.

Weapon 'Tanto'
dam=2, att=1, hits=1, res=1
new=1
//a knife

Weapon 'Tessen'
dam=4, att=1, def=-2, hits=1, res=1
new=1
//a combat fan

Weapon 'Wakizashi'
dam=5, def=2, length=1, hands=1, hits=1, res=5
new=1
//short sword

Weapon 'Blowgun'
dam=-5, prec=2, hits=1, pierce=50, fatiguedam=50, doesFatigueDam=1, ammo=5, rng=10, res=1
new=1
//for shinobi

Weapon 'Kansashi'
dam=3, hits=1
new=1
//geisha hairpin

Weapon 'Nodachi'
dam=7, att=3, length=3, hands=2, hits=1, pierce=50, res=12
new=1
//armor-piercing big sword

Weapon 'Su Yari'
dam=4, att=1, length=5, hands=2, hits=1, res=4
new=1
//a japanese spear

Weapon 'Te Yari'
dam=4, length=4, hands=1, hits=1, res=2
new=1
//shorter, 1-handed spear, also used by cavalry


//Below are the new God weapons

Weapon 'Thunder Breath'
hits=1, pierce=100, doesPhysicalDam=-1, shockdam=12, doesShockDam=1, magic=1, aoe=1, ammo=5, rng=9999, strNotAddedShock=1
new=1
//for the yellow dragon

Weapon 'Dominate'
dam=999, att=10, hits=1, pierce=100, magic=1, mrnegates=1, mrpenalty=4
new=1
//for the darkness. It is supposed to mind-control.

Weapon 'Freeze'
length=6, hits=1, pierce=100, doesPhysicalDam=-1, colddam=4, doesColdDam=1, magic=1, aoe=1, strNotAddedCold=1
new=1
//for the evil mist

Weapon 'Lava Punch'
dam=-2, hands=1, hits=1, magic=1, flaming=12
new=1
//for the lava giant

Weapon 'Suffocate'
att=10, hits=2, pierce=100, fatiguedam=30, doesFatigueDam=1, doesPhysicalDam=-1, aoe=1
new=1
//evil mist attack

Weapon 'Huge Stone Club'
dam=14, att=-1, def=-1, length=4, hands=1, hits=1
new=1
//for all the giants

New Items:

Item 'Straw Hat'
enc=1
new=1
//For peasants

Item 'Hachi'
aprot=1, res=1
new=1
//Just a helmet

Item 'Kabuto'
aprot=2, res=3
new=1
//helmet and neck-guard

Item 'Tatami Do'
aprot=7, def=-1, enc=1, res=5
new=1
//Cheap armor

Item 'Haramaki Do'
aprot=10, def=-1, enc=2, res=10
new=1
//Pretty good armor - heaviest archers can use

Item 'Nuinobe Do'
aprot=12, def=-2, enc=2, res=15
new=1
//Excellent armor

Item 'Yukino****a Do'
aprot=15, def=-3, enc=4, res=18
new=1
//Heavy armor

Item 'Ninja Garb'
aprot=2, res=2
stealthy=10, new=1
//supposed to add 10 to stealth level

Item 'Robe'
aprot=1
new=1
//for monks

Item 'Kote'
aprot=1, def=2, res=2
new=1
//arm guards for ninja


-Cherry

[ January 05, 2004, 17:15: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

What period of Japanese history are you targeting for the majority of the information? Or is it all fantasy based? (I don't mind either way; but the most attractive themes in my mind are those with a little bit of our history mixed in)

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
What period of Japanese history are you targeting for the majority of the information? Or is it all fantasy based? (I don't mind either way; but the most attractive themes in my mind are those with a little bit of our history mixed in) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm kind of targeting random bits from all periods. The armor styles changed over time, and I don't know which ones had what stats... the books never tell you important stuff like protection values=)

Sometimes swords were dominant, sometimes spears, and I really don't know enough to make a theme for a specific era.

If you know any Japanese mythology, it would be useful for making heroes, national summons, national gods, and national sites. I don't know much about Japanese religion or mythology.

[atul]

Is it so that if you give two weapons to a unit (s)he automatically uses both? If that is the case then here's the nation dedicated to dual-wielding. =) It's just that I've been under impression that in ancient Japan using two swords (long ones, at least) was considered somewhat barbaric. Samurais had katana and short sword, but they weren't used at the same time. Therefore Japan as the nation of dual-wielders strikes me as 'unthematic' (not that it has any relevance to a fantasy setting), but I might very well be wrong. (Of course, for ninjas and ronins everything goes, it's just those samurais with twin katanas...)

While still on that subject, there's this historical figure whose fame was partially owed to the fact he used two swords http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , Miamoto or something, to succesfully beat a heap of people. Good enough for a hero?

[Hana]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
[QUOTE]
If you know any Japanese mythology, it would be useful for making heroes, national summons, national gods, and national sites. I don't know much about Japanese religion or mythology. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like the Japanese theme. I'm reasonably familiar with the mythology, so I'll post a bit of info here. I'm more familiar with the Shinto side of the religion (most Japanese go by a mixture of Buddhist and Shinto beliefs), so the bulk of the info will come from that side.

The two primary Shinto deities are Izanami (female) and Izanagi (male). They were siblings, but also husband and wife. Anyway they created the world, but Izanami ended up dying and going to the underworld after giving birth to one of her children. Izanagi followed her there to take it back, but since she was already decomposing, or according to some accounts she just aged a great deal, she said it was too late and made him leave. The two of them seem to be an embodiment of the yin/yang concept, with Izanami being the yin (feminine/soft/passive/cold/etc.) and Izanagi being the yang (masculine/hard/active/warm/etc). I could easily see them as death and nature oriented pretenders, respectively.

Inari is a rice deity of ambiguous gender. Some of what I've read says female, some says male, so I'm not sure. Inari is very much associated with fox spirits called kitsune, so attracting them may be a possibility for this deity. I recommend this link as a source of kitsune info, and a bit about Inari. The famous kitsune section has a few that might be good as hero units. http://www.comnet.ca/~foxtrot/kitsune/kitsune1.htm

Kappa are sort of bipedal frogs with shells on their backs. They're associated with water (their natural habitat, but they can go on land as well) and it's believed that if they ever dry out they die.

Hannya are the spirits of jealous women who became demons because of their jealousy. They're known to drink blood, particularly from children and infants.

Outside of Shinto beliefs there's a historical figure that ended up rising to legendary status. Minamoto Yo****sune. In short he and his brother Yoritomo were both on the same side of a civil war of a sort. Their side was victorious, but somewhere along the line some animosity built up between the brothers. Yoritomo decided Yo****sune needed to die, and eventually he did. In any case Yo****sune was said to be a very capable fighter and general, and was also said to have been trained by a race of men with some bird-like characteristics (tengu). His consort Shizuka Gozen is quite well known in her own right too. I could very easily see her as a modified geisha.

[Kristoffer O]

Japanese myth and folklore contains many beings of possible interest. Several kinds of bakemono (something like goblins), the kitsune (fox spirit), tatsu (dragon), oni (demons), yurei (ghosts), uba (hags) and others.

The main diety of the shinto religion is Amaterasu Omi-no-Kami, the sun goddess. But as Hana said Japanese mythology is rather syncretistic and shinto and buddhist beliefs are mixed. Spirits and beings of both religions appear more or less side by side.

Magical beliefs are basically taoistic.

Accidentally I rediscovered the good old japanese RPG 'Bushido' during christmas. I couldn't resist making a campaign for the game (not finished though), so I'm feeling rather Nippon-friendly right now.

If you can find 'Bushido' buy it. It has useful info on society, arms and legendary beings of Japan.

[Endoperez]

This race seems to have troops light in both gold and in resources, and units that need much resources AND others who want much gold. Quite a tricky situation! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Are you sure Death ninja need water magic? Water => quickness...

Interesting. You should try doing graphics: if you try enough, you will eventually get something useful... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I do most my essays more than once, and whenever I try to draw I make mostly crap, and sometimes something that I can recognize. You could also ask if Illwinter will let you to change the colors of their dragons.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Endoperez:
Are you sure Death ninja need water magic? Water => quickness...

Interesting. You should try doing graphics: if you try enough, you will eventually get something useful... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I do most my essays more than once, and whenever I try to draw I make mostly crap, and sometimes something that I can recognize. You could also ask if Illwinter will let you to change the colors of their dragons. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Death Ninja: Yeah... hmmm. I think I'll take it back and make them just death 1 (and cheaper). The wise man already has water, anyway.

As for graphics - that Last part was pretty much assumed=) But it would be fun to get left brain exercise for once. Or right brain, I'm not sure...

Originally posted by atul:
s it so that if you give two weapons to a unit (s)he automatically uses both? If that is the case then here's the nation dedicated to dual-wielding. =) It's just that I've been under impression that in ancient Japan using two swords (long ones, at least) was considered somewhat barbaric. Samurais had katana and short sword, but they weren't used at the same time. Therefore Japan as the nation of dual-wielders strikes me as 'unthematic' (not that it has any relevance to a fantasy setting), but I might very well be wrong. (Of course, for ninjas and ronins everything goes, it's just those samurais with twin katanas...)

While still on that subject, there's this historical figure whose fame was partially owed to the fact he used two swords , Miamoto or something, to succesfully beat a heap of people. Good enough for a hero?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...units always wield as many weapons as they have. But I can give units a piece of armor called a "Wakizashi" that gives +2 defense=) I think I'll make 2 Samurai, ambidextrous (+3, so dual katana still takes a hit) and non-ambidextrous, with ambidextrous ones costing a little more. The non-ambidextrous ones get a piece of armor called a wakizashi, and the dual-wielders get a sword wakizashi, so both get the defense bonus but only dualers get the second attack.

The monks, of course, will all be ambidextrous. But as for dual katanas... should I limit that to "dishonorable ronin"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Kristoffer and Hana - thanks for the intriguing tidbits=) I'll see how well I can incorporate some of it... a lot might require spell modding, of course... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif But neither of you mentioned tanukis. I want a tanuki pretender, but I don't really think they're helpful to anyone=) Maybe they should cause bad events (stolen food and artifacts), but cost negative points... or have "Cute +4", like Awe +4, except failing a cuteness throw makes you join the side of the cute one.

Well, I'll try to come up with realistic stats for some of those creatures tonight.

-Cherry

[Arralen]

.. my 0,02 EUR on that matter:

Ninjas
.. oh no, please don't do that. There wheren't any people like black-clad mummy clans which stalked the night.
Those where an "invention" of Hongkong filmmakers who hired some workers from the docks as "sword fodder".

There where some stealthy assassines out there, but they didn't hide in the dark but under the disguise of common men edited: or women http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . So if you're giving the nation an assasine, make it look like some peasant or something.

dual wielding
It isn't "barbaric" to wield 2 Katana, it's almost impossible. Even using Katana/Wakizashi at the same time is technically difficult, so it's a thing for elite troops only.

2-handed swords
The Katana is basically bastard sword, it can be wielded both 1- and 2-handed. In it's "final" form it's not longer than european Longswords.
However, it's just that the swords got shorter over time. The first Katana, and before them the tachi even more, where 20 to 50cm longer and 2-handed only.

[barbaric swords
Using 2 straight swords was considered barbaric, simply as it was chinese http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
But was only after ~900, the very first swords in Japan where imported chinese weapons, or derived from those, and had an straight blade.
There's that tale about that "swords of the gods" (cannot remember the name ..) that is described as straight and 2-edged, though.

Everything AFAIK and IMHO, o.c.

yours
Arralen

[ January 06, 2004, 05:13: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arralen:
.. my 0,02 EUR on that matter:

.. oh no, please don't do that. There wheren't any people like black-clad mummy clans which stalked the night.
Those where an "invention" of Hongkong filmmakers who hired some workers from the docks as "sword fodder".

There where some stealthy assassines out there, but they didn't hide in the dark but under the disguise of common men edited: or women . So if you're giving the nation an assasine, make it look like some peasant or something.

Ninjas
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bwahahaha!!! Well, maybe I'll add a new "Ninja of the Dirt Poor Clan that is Forced to Dress Like A Peasant" unit. But all you're doing is encouraging me to add more ninja, not fewer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

As for the other info... hmmm. Thanks!

But I have to ask, now. Everyone seems to have good reasons for samurai to not have wakizashis... does anyone know why they did? Were they for blocking, or just a "sidearm"?

-Cherry

[atul]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
But I have to ask, now. Everyone seems to have good reasons for samurai to not have wakizashis... does anyone know why they did? Were they for blocking, or just a "sidearm"?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As far as I know: ceremonial purposes, for times their main sword was unavailable (broken/disarmed/etc), close quarter fights. Not used in conjunction, but instead of katana.

As for that 'barbaric' notion, I stand corrected. Anyway, dual-wielding long weapons is featured in films a lot because it is flashy, not because it would actually be a viable way to fight (Uma Thurman in Kill Bill, anyone?-).

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:



But I have to ask, now. Everyone seems to have good reasons for samurai to not have wakizashis... does anyone know why they did? Were they for blocking, or just a "sidearm"?

-Cherry <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed, the samurais did not as a rule use two weapons in battle. The wakizashi was a back-up weapon, and a ceremonial one, not an off-hand one.

However, there was a famous Japanese samouraï (I can't remember the name) that did develop a two weapon style for katana and wakizashi, together. That style
was designed to fight against several opponents at once. It's also the kind of style that needs year to learn. So if you want to include it for elite troops, that would be all right I think.

Oh, and I would say that in that case the wakizashi is mostly for defensive purpose, so I would give these troops better defence, but only a weak attack with the wakizashi. Sort of like a parrying dagger.

[ January 06, 2004, 10:08: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Arralen:
.. my 0,02 EUR on that matter:

Ninjas
.. oh no, please don't do that. There wheren't any people like black-clad mummy clans which stalked the night.
Those where an "invention" of Hongkong filmmakers who hired some workers from the docks as "sword fodder".

There where some stealthy assassines out there, but they didn't hide in the dark but under the disguise of common men edited: or women http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . So if you're giving the nation an assasine, make it look like some peasant or something.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, they weren't any fireball lobbing wizards in history either, and I would argue that black mummy ninjas are acceptable, if not as historically correct, then as a classic fantasy. Beside, I am sure that on some occasions, some of them did dress in black and blackened their faces. It's quite effective in some situations...

Most soldiers, only had standard issue weapons. As they, or their lord, or country, only had enough money to give them what they needed, not what they wanted. Which in most cases ment a primary and if you were lucky, a secondary weapon. Most commonly the secondary weapon was a knife, or dagger, or fork that was used as an eating utensil, shovel, comb, razor.

By and large fighting with two weapons made for clumsy combat and as most SCA fanbois will comment, fighting with a shield is about 100x more effective, though it doesn't look cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Most of the ambidexterous units in the game at current are rare. Only a particular type are given it (Bane Spider, Lava Warrior, Warlord, etc) I don't think it would be all that unfathomable to have the monks and the ninjas dual wield, but not every elite unit they have.

Also, just a footnote. Most samurai used naginata as their primary weapon, from either horseback or on foot as it afforded them both reach to fight either type of troop (cavalry or foot) and ease of training as well as being able to bash things they couldn't cut.

[Arralen]

Do not mix up common soldiers and samurai - should be obvious that the latter are more equal to the european/near eastern knights.
However, their swords where mostly of at least "good" qualitity, even if they didn't have rice straw sandals to put on their feet in winter.
European knights on the other hand had some crappy armament at times ...

dual-wield
When I said "elite" troops, I meant that. Not just the beefed-up Version of infantry. In DOM terms this would most likely be the holy troop type.

As someone said - wielding 2 full-seized swords effectivly is very hard in every regard. The chinese swords used this way are generally rather short (up to 80cm) and very lightly build - I doubt they would pierce an late 1100 european-style double layered chain mail, neither trusting nor slashing.

Sometimes dual-wielding of the daisho is attributed to Miramoto Musashi ("Book of 5 Rings"), dating in the late 16th (early 17th - not shure about this) century. But I somehow doubt that it took really that long until someone got it right. On the other hand, as I said before, swords got shorter over time, and around 1100 it would have been simply impossible to use the Tachi/Katana of 1,4m one-handed all time.

The Wakizashi isn't an eastern form of the main-gauche, though. It's mostly 50-70 cm long and a real shortsword, not some form of dagger. It is carried at all times, so when in a friends house it's the main weapon, as the longsword is left at the entrance. In regular combat it is used when fighting in confined spaces or when the battle is that "tight" that the combatants get into grappling range regularly. It is used to deflect incoming blows, than counter-attack while the fighter closes in if used as a main weapon. Doing this while using it off-hand is incredibly difficult ...
Last -and least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif - it was used to commit seppuku ...

main weapon
At times, the bow was the primary weapon, sometimes the naginata, then some sword in varying length. I think personal preference and the randomness of situation would have had a strong influence.
Keep in mind, though, that in general blades with less than "good" quality where used for either swords given to peasant-soldiers or sword-lances in general. This shows that the lances where considered disposable to some degree.

Everything AFAIK and IMHO, as ever...

A.

edited: spelling

[ January 08, 2004, 07:48: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Arralen:
European knights on the other hand had some crappy armament at times ...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might be using a different definition of knight than the standard one here, considering that a knight had at least enough land to support a horse for him to ride. That's the equivalent of tens of thousands of dollars in modern terms so their weapons wouldn't have been that bad.

[Saber Cherry]

I changed around some of the RS units as per the suggestions floating around... for example, the only dual-sword-wielding units are now the Elite Samurai and a couple commanders. All the other katana-and-wakizashi units have a piece of armor called a "wakizashi". All the ninja, monks, and ronin thugs dual-wield and are ambidextrous-2.

Also, I reduced the magic level of the master ninja and corrected some stat errors. And gave the hero Himura Battosai magical and heroic quickness. In-game, though, he will not be equippable with anything other than "misc" items, so he shouldn't turn out unbalanced. Similarly, the ninja assassins and geisha will either have no torso slot, or (if possible) lose their stealth when given armor. Stealthy-30 units in Black Steel Full Plate are pretty silly=)

As for the mythological units, I've not had time to add them yet but I will soon. Unless someone else wants to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Current Rising Sun lineup:

New Unit:
RS Peasant (Base creature: RS Peasant)

HP: 7 Str: 8
Prot: 0 Att: 8
Mrl: 6 Def: 7
Mrst: 9 Prec: 10
Enc: 6 AP: 6

Weapons: Kama
Items: Straw Hat

Gold: 3 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Militia (Base creature: RS Militia)

HP: 8 Str: 8
Prot: 4 Att: 9
Mrl: 7 Def: 8
Mrst: 9 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Weapons: Te Yari
Items: Hachi, Leather Cuirass

Gold: 5 Res: 4

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug Nunchaku (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Nunchaku, Nunchaku
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug Wakizashi (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Wakizashi, Tanto
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin (Base creature: RS Ronin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 8 Res: 3

********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Ashigaru (Base creature: RS Ashigaru)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 9 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Archer (Base creature: RS Samurai Archer)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 10
Mrl: 10 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Wakizashi, Yumi
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 10 Res: 12

********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 16

********************************

New Unit:
RS Light Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 14
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 21

********************************

New Unit:
RS Nodachi Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 23

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 28

********************************

New Unit:
RS Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 9
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 24

********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 15 Res: 32

********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 8
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 15 Res: 28

********************************

New Unit:
RS Elite Samurai (Base creature: RS Elite Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 13 Def: 12
Mrst: 11 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Ambidextrous 3

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 16 Res: 28

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Cavalry (Base creature: RS Samurai Cavalry)

HP: 13 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 15
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 20

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Hoof
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 37

********************************

New Unit:
RS Horse Archer (Base creature: RS Horse Archer)

HP: 12 Str: 11
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 24

Mounted

Weapons: Te Yari, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 25 Res: 14

********************************

New Unit:
RS Blind Monk (Base creature: RS Blind Monk)

HP: 9 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 16
Mrst: 14 Prec: 4
Enc: 3 AP: 10

Sacred

Weapons: Iron Fist, Iron Fist, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 30 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Knife Hand, Nerve Strike, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Bo (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Sai (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Sai, Sai, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 16 Res: 4

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja (Base creature: RS Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 16
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Stealthy 20, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Sai, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 20 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Commander (Base creature: RS Monk Commander)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 3

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 30 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinto Master (Base creature: RS Shinto Master)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 1 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 15 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 3
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Commander (Base creature: RS Samurai Commander)

HP: 12 Str: 10
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 11
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Ambidextrous 3

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 32

********************************

New Unit:
RS Mounted Commander (Base creature: RS Mounted Commander)

HP: 13 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 17
Mrst: 11 Prec: 12
Enc: 4 AP: 25

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Wakizashi, Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 50 Res: 23

********************************

New Unit:
RS Daimyo (Base creature: RS Daimyo)

HP: 14 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Ambidextrous 3, Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Sai, Hoof
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 80 Res: 35

********************************

New Unit:
RS Sword Saint (Base creature: RS Sword Saint)

HP: 12 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 14
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 11

********************************

New Unit:
RS Geisha (Base creature: RS Geisha)

HP: 9 Str: 9
Prot: 0 Att: 9
Mrl: 12 Def: 6
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 11

Seductress, Stealthy 40

Weapons: Tessen, Kansashi

Gold: 60 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinobi (Base creature: RS Shinobi)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 10 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Spy, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Tanto, Blowgun
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 35 Res: 9

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Assassin (Base creature: RS Ninja Assassin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 12 Def: 13
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 50 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame (Base creature: RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 3 Att: 14
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 14 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Resistances:

Fire: 100 Cold: 0
Shock: 0 Poison: 0

Assassin, Sacred, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Magic: Fire 2
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Enchanted Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 130 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Death Ninja (Base creature: RS Death Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 13 Def: 13
Mrst: 12 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2, Fear -4

Magic: Death 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 80 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Master (Base creature: RS Ninja Master)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 3 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 35, Ambidextrous 2

Magic: Fire 1, Random 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Ninja to, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 120 Res: 11

********************************

New Unit:
RS Wise Man (Base creature: RS Wise Man)

HP: 7 Str: 8
Prot: 0 Att: 8
Mrl: 10 Def: 6
Mrst: 16 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Amphibian 2

Magic: Water 2, Nature 1, Random 2
Weapons: Fist

Gold: 220 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Himura Battosai (Base creature: RS Himura Battosai)

HP: 11 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 20
Mrl: 18 Def: 17
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 2 AP: 42

Hero, Assassin, Stealthy 20, Air Shield 50
Magic Quickness, Quickness 75

Weapons: Battosai no Katana
Items: Robe, Godlike Speed

********************************

[Arralen]

I would suggest removing the Wakizashi as even as "faked" secondary weapon from most samurai troops completely, because

- they simply weren't able to use both swords at once, and fought 1,5-handed using the Katana

- therefore they didn't use the W. as some kind of "shield-substitute" to block or deflect incoming blows.

By the way -did you make it some kind armor or shield. Making it a shield would result in a ridiculous arrow blocking ability (hey, we don't do Hongkong films here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), making it a piece of armor would have other consequences I'm not shure about (=> armor piercing, items/spells that destroy armor etc.).

What stats are you using for the Wakizashi?

Edited: Really cute idea for elite hero samurai .. or ninja turtles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Make the Wakizashi a shield. Give it non-poisonous thorns, if there's something like this possible within the limit of the current game engine.

This way the hero would be able to deflect incoming arrows (Everyone knows they could cut them out of the air!) AND counter-attack (kind off) attacks with short weapons with the off-hand. (Dunno if this would be auto-hit, so maybe damage should be rather small).

yours,
Arralen

[ January 08, 2004, 08:04: Message edited by: Arralen ]

[General Tacticus]

Prot 17 AND Defense 17 on a unit (the daimyo) ? And others I see have high protection AND high defense as well...

I am afraid this is just too powerful. It will need to be tested of course. On a commander, if it comes from good, pre-equiped items, and the price is right, it might be ok. Otherwise you are just creating cheap and easy SC material here, and almost impossible to kill armies... I am also concerned about 3 gold 1 ressource armies, especially the 3 gold. Even hogsburg militias are not that cheap, and yours can be recruited in any castle... Granted, they are the worse units I have yet to see, but there comes a point where stats don't matter, all you are looking for is the cheapest arrow catcher in sight, and you have just given a new meaning to the concept...

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arralen:
I would suggest removing the Wakizashi as even as "faked" secondary weapon from most samurai troops completely, because

- they simply weren't able to use both swords at once, and fought 1,5-handed using the Katana

- therefore they didn't use the W. as some kind of "shield-substitute" to block or deflect incoming blows.

By the way -did you make it some kind armor or shield. Making it a shield would result in a ridiculous arrow blocking ability (hey, we don't do Hongkong films here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), making it a piece of armor would have other consequences I'm not shure about (=> armor piercing, items/spells that destroy armor etc.).
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right now it is a non-shield armor that takes 1 hand. Not sure if this is possible in the real game... but yeah, I don't want normal units blocking arrows with them.

What stats are you using for the Wakizashi?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Weapon: dam=5 def=2 length=1 hands=1 hits=1 res=4
Armor: def=2 hands=1 res=4

As a Last resort, I could take away all wakizashi stats but give it the special ability "Self Blood Sacrifice" so that seppukuing troops (RS does not "rout") at least increase your dominion=)

By Tacticus:
Prot 17 AND Defense 17 on a unit (the daimyo) ? And others I see have high protection AND high defense as well...

I am afraid this is just too powerful. It will need to be tested of course. On a commander, if it comes from good, pre-equiped items, and the price is right, it might be ok. Otherwise you are just creating cheap and easy SC material here, and almost impossible to kill armies... I am also concerned about 3 gold 1 ressource armies, especially the 3 gold. Even hogsburg militias are not that cheap, and yours can be recruited in any castle... Granted, they are the worse units I have yet to see, but there comes a point where stats don't matter, all you are looking for is the cheapest arrow catcher in sight, and you have just given a new meaning to the concept... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Daimyo's gold and resource cost may be (probably are) too low, but the stats are not unreasonable. I'll increase those costs. Keep in mind that he has no lance and no shield, unlike similar elite mounted commanders. In the combat sim, he is always beaten by the Ulm edit: Black Lord. Keep in mind that all these stats are derived, not base. Here are his weapon stats:

name=Katana dam=7 att=1 def=1 length=2 hands=1 hits=1 res=7
name=Sai dam=2 def=3 hands=1 hits=1 length=0 res=2

So he's getting a +3 mounted and +4 weapon defense bonus... his base defense is 13. Perhaps he should get a wakizashi instead of a sai? Anyway, he lacks a shield and lance (major negatives), is not sacred, but is otherwise similar to comparable units (except for his low prices, which I will raise). For comparison:

New Unit:
RS Daimyo (Base creature: RS Daimyo)

HP: 14 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Ambidextrous 3, Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Sai, Hoof
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 80 Res: 35

********************************

Ulm Black Lord (Base creature: Ulm Black Lord)

HP: 17 Str: 14
Prot: 24 Att: 13
Mrl: 16 Def: 10
Mrst: 9 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 18

Mounted

Weapons: Lance, Morningstar, Hoof
Items: Full Plate of Ulm, Full Helmet, Kite Shield

Gold: 130 Res: 70

********************************

PY Serpent Lord (Base creature: PY Serpent Lord)

HP: 15 Str: 13
Prot: 18 Att: 14
Mrl: 15 Def: 15
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 3 AP: 16

Mounted

Weapons: Spear, Bite
Items: Plate Hauberk, Helmet, Round Shield

Gold: 130 Res: 58

********************************

TC Prince General (Base creature: TC Prince General)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 15 Att: 14
Mrl: 16 Def: 16
Mrst: 12 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Sacred, Mounted

Weapons: Lance, Falchion, Hoof
Items: Full Scale Mail, Helmet, Round Shield

Gold: 150 Res: 42

********************************

Man Knight of Avalon (Base creature: Man Knight of Avalon)

HP: 14 Str: 12
Prot: 20 Att: 12
Mrl: 15 Def: 16
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 30

Mounted

Weapons: Lance, Broad Sword, Hoof
Items: Full Chain Mail, Full Helmet, Kite Shield

Gold: 85 Res: 61

********************************

MAR Paladin (Base creature: MAR Paladin)

HP: 15 Str: 13
Prot: 20 Att: 13
Mrl: 16 Def: 14
Mrst: 12 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 20

Sacred, Mounted

Weapons: Lance, Broad Sword, Hoof
Items: Full Chain Mail, Full Helmet, Kite Shield

Gold: 130 Res: 61

********************************

.
.
.

As far as peasants go. The price that I put in may be unbalanced (I hope not!). However... it is not unrealistic. Rather, Illwinter's prices for militia, slingers, and such trash units are very high in my opinion. An untrained militia pressed into the army and handed a spear does not cost 70% of training and equipping a heavy infantry unit.

I plan to rebalance all the militia in the game to fall more into line with those numbers.

And for ronin... like gladiators, they leave after a battle. Monks are powerful but expensive and limited by holy level (and low protection).

I understand your concerns, and they may very well be justified. Currently, RS has the 3rd best melee units after Jotunheim and Abysia in the combat sim. But they are somewhat magically weak (level-2 water, level-2 fire, level-1 death, level-1 nature, and some randoms), average holy powers (level-3 max), and have no shields at all... which, I think, will make their armies incredibly vulnerable to crossbows. And their good troops are all very expensive.

So, it's hard to say at this point... until I can actually see them on a battlefield. But thanks for brining the Daimyo to my attention, anyway - looks like the RS cavalry needs a bit of cost boosting.

-Cherry

[ January 08, 2004, 17:54: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Please take into consideration some of your resource costs Cherrypie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The one I'd note is the 17 Defense 16 gold, 4 resource, stealth monks. While I'm a fan of stealth units. Just look at how much it costs to make a decent army of them initially.

320 Gold, 80 Resources = 20 17 Defense Monks
640 Gold, 160 Resources = 40 17 Defense Monks

Normally it wouldn't matter, but they have low encumberance (3), full dual wielding with 3 attacks (remember each attack after the 1st on a unit lowers the defense of it by 1, so they don't need high att) and 17 defense that with the exception of a few nations and most certainly independants, would have a hard time to deal with.

With that kind of resources you could have an army of 20 turn 1, and 2 turns later probably 20 more. And with such low initial cost their upkeep is low for being a stealth unit.

Just something to consider on the stealth units. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Just noticed they were sacred too. So throw Quickness on them with a +4 Defense for a 9 Water blessing and they are very nearly Vans with a grillion attacks for 16 gold and 4 resources.

Edit: I just noticed that you said in your post that RS units don't rout? At all? Or are you just going to make them have a high morale so that represents the amount of conviction they have towards their god?

DO they just die if they retreat? Or am I reading more into that, (if so, that could be RS's total fall, not being able to rout would be a huge weakness vs fear units and terror. Ermor and C'tis would invariably make them run and hide under their fancy dresses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

[ January 08, 2004, 22:37: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Kristoffer O]

The high defense of some commanders are due to the +3 mounted bonus. The base defence of a knight of avalon is not 16, but 13 (+3 for the mount).

Our initial settings was something like this:

Noncombattant 6
Untrained unit 8
Trained Soldier 10
Veteran 11
Elite 12
Rare special troops 13

Values of 14 - 16 are reserved for exeptional commanders and heroes. There might be exceptions of course.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
Please take into consideration some of your resource costs Cherrypie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The one I'd note is the 17 Defense 16 gold, 4 resource, stealth monks. While I'm a fan of stealth units. Just look at how much it costs to make a decent army of them initially.

320 Gold, 80 Resources = 20 17 Defense Monks
640 Gold, 160 Resources = 40 17 Defense Monks

Normally it wouldn't matter, but they have low encumberance (3), full dual wielding with 3 attacks (remember each attack after the 1st on a unit lowers the defense of it by 1, so they don't need high att) and 17 defense that with the exception of a few nations and most certainly independants, would have a hard time to deal with.

With that kind of resources you could have an army of 20 turn 1, and 2 turns later probably 20 more. And with such low initial cost their upkeep is low for being a stealth unit.

Just something to consider on the stealth units. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit: Just noticed they were sacred too. So throw Quickness on them with a +4 Defense for a 9 Water blessing and they are very nearly Vans with a grillion attacks for 16 gold and 4 resources.

Edit: I just noticed that you said in your post that RS units don't rout? At all? Or are you just going to make them have a high morale so that represents the amount of conviction they have towards their god?

DO they just die if they retreat? Or am I reading more into that, (if so, that could be RS's total fall, not being able to rout would be a huge weakness vs fear units and terror. Ermor and C'tis would invariably make them run and hide under their fancy dresses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm... well, the monks are sacred, which limits production to maybe 5/turn... I could even make them capitol only. The sai gives +3 defense each. The blind monks will certainly be capitol-only. Normal, non-blind monks only have 5 protection, meaning they fall to archers just like flagellants... which also get 2 attacks and have low encumbrance... but are cheaper. Monks (except blind monk) are not very good against armored opponents, though, unless you give them Fire 9=)

As for not routing... I would love to make RS units that rout commit seppuku if they pass a morale throw=) But actually, I was just kidding.

I'll look into the monk costs - they may be too low.

Kristoffer:

Thanks for posting that chart! I'll use it as a guideline.

-Cherry

I'm thinking of potential exploitation and is in no way trying to say not to do them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As you should know Cherrypie.

As for sacred, yes that can limit it. At maximum 10 a turn for 160 Gold, 40 Resources.

Hrm. I am still wondering I'd have to do tests to look at it. I tried a similiar type of 'abuse' of bless effects with Battle Vestals which failed based on their stats. But this has a powerful set of stats and you may be able to make it work.

We'll just have to see eh? I also like having multiple sacred units, though I don't know if it should be particularly common ones like monks.

Edit: Flags are not stealthy. That is where my thinking is. It is relatively easy for a human sized unit (no special archer orders, except for closest, rearmost) to avoid archers, especially if you know how, so I wouldn't use that as an excuse, plus the fact that a Staff of Storms or less likely Arrow Fend can almost totally counter missile fire.

[ January 09, 2004, 02:14: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
I'm thinking of potential exploitation and is in no way trying to say not to do them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif As you should know Cherrypie.

[clip]

Edit: Flags are not stealthy. That is where my thinking is. It is relatively easy for a human sized unit (no special archer orders, except for closest, rearmost) to avoid archers, especially if you know how, so I wouldn't use that as an excuse, plus the fact that a Staff of Storms or less likely Arrow Fend can almost totally counter missile fire. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok you're being pretty persuasive. Not with the arrow stuff - I've never seen a fight during a storm so I can't comment - but I had kind of put sacred on because it seemed appropriate, and forgot to adjust the price accordingly.

Hmm... well there are a couple of solutions... I could, for example, make the unarmed monks sacred and the armed monks non-sacred, and since the majority of the defense comes from dual-wielding weapon-catching sais (3 def each), those monks would not be bless-abusable. "Holy Monks" and "Combat Monks", as it were.

Alternately... since as it stands they ARE stealthy, ambidextrous, and sacred (half upkeep, let's not forget), I bumped the price from 16 to 22, added +2 resource cost (to reflect a lifetime of training), and bumped the (capitol-only) blind monk to 32.

I also changed (made worse) a few of the armor stats, weakened the peasant (to more accurately reflect their ability to use a farm tool as a weapon) and militia, and lowered the attack of the medium and heavy samurai to reflect their encumbrance. These were because... well... RS was kind of dominating the combat sim in the Last test. Also, I wanted to ensure the units were in accordance with KO's guidelines.

Here are the revised stats:

New Unit:
RS Peasant (Base creature: RS Peasant)

HP: 7 Str: 7
Prot: 0 Att: 6
Mrl: 6 Def: 5
Mrst: 9 Prec: 9
Enc: 7 AP: 6

Weapons: Kama
Items: Straw Hat

Gold: 3 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Militia (Base creature: RS Militia)

HP: 8 Str: 9
Prot: 4 Att: 8
Mrl: 7 Def: 8
Mrst: 9 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Weapons: Te Yari
Items: Hachi, Leather Cuirass

Gold: 6 Res: 4

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug Nunchaku (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 7 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Nunchaku, Nunchaku
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug Wakizashi (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 7 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Wakizashi, Tanto
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin (Base creature: RS Ronin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 8 Res: 4

********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Ashigaru (Base creature: RS Ashigaru)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 7 Att: 10
Mrl: 9 Def: 9
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 9 Res: 9

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Archer (Base creature: RS Samurai Archer)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 10
Mrl: 10 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Wakizashi, Yumi
Items: Hachi, Mougami Do

Gold: 10 Res: 14

********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 14

********************************

New Unit:
RS Light Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 21

********************************

New Unit:
RS Nodachi Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 24

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 10
Mrl: 11 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 6 AP: 9

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 29

********************************

New Unit:
RS Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 10
Mrl: 11 Def: 9
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 6 AP: 9

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 25

********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 10
Mrl: 12 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 14 Res: 34

********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 10
Mrl: 12 Def: 8
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 14 Res: 30

********************************

New Unit:
RS Elite Samurai (Base creature: RS Elite Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 13 Def: 12
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 6 AP: 10

Ambidextrous 3

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 16 Res: 29

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Cavalry (Base creature: RS Samurai Cavalry)

HP: 13 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 14
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 20

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Hoof
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 42

********************************

New Unit:
RS Horse Archer (Base creature: RS Horse Archer)

HP: 12 Str: 11
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 24

Mounted

Weapons: Te Yari, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 25 Res: 14

********************************

New Unit:
RS Blind Monk (Base creature: RS Blind Monk)

HP: 9 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 16
Mrst: 14 Prec: 4
Enc: 3 AP: 8

Sacred

Weapons: Iron Fist, Iron Fist, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 32 Res: 12

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Knife Hand, Nerve Strike, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 22 Res: 3

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Bo (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 22 Res: 3

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Sai (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Sai, Sai, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 22 Res: 6

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja (Base creature: RS Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 16
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Stealthy 20, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Sai, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 20 Res: 10

********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Commander (Base creature: RS Monk Commander)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 3

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 50 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinto Master (Base creature: RS Shinto Master)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 1 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 15 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 3
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Commander (Base creature: RS Samurai Commander)

HP: 12 Str: 10
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 13 Def: 11
Mrst: 11 Prec: 11
Enc: 7 AP: 9

Ambidextrous 3

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 34

********************************

New Unit:
RS Mounted Commander (Base creature: RS Mounted Commander)

HP: 13 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 12
Mrl: 13 Def: 16
Mrst: 11 Prec: 12
Enc: 4 AP: 26

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Wakizashi, Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 50 Res: 23

********************************

New Unit:
RS Daimyo (Base creature: RS Daimyo)

HP: 14 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 16 Def: 16
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Ambidextrous 3, Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi, Hoof
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 100 Res: 42

********************************

New Unit:
RS Sword Saint (Base creature: RS Sword Saint)

HP: 12 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 15
Mrl: 15 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 11

********************************

New Unit:
RS Geisha (Base creature: RS Geisha)

HP: 9 Str: 9
Prot: 0 Att: 9
Mrl: 12 Def: 7
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 10

Seductress, Stealthy 40

Weapons: Tessen, Kansashi

Gold: 60 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinobi (Base creature: RS Shinobi)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 10 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 13

Spy, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Tanto, Blowgun
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 35 Res: 9

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Assassin (Base creature: RS Ninja Assassin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 12 Def: 13
Mrst: 11 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 13

Assassin, Stealthy 25, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 50 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame (Base creature: RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 3 Att: 14
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 14 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Resistances:

Fire: 100 Cold: 0
Shock: 0 Poison: 0

Assassin, Sacred, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Magic: Fire 2
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Enchanted Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 130 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Death Ninja (Base creature: RS Death Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 13 Def: 13
Mrst: 12 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2, Fear -4

Magic: Death 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 80 Res: 8

********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Master (Base creature: RS Ninja Master)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 3 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 13 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 35, Ambidextrous 2

Magic: Fire 1, Random 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Ninja to, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 120 Res: 11

********************************

New Unit:
RS Wise Man (Base creature: RS Wise Man)

HP: 7 Str: 8
Prot: 0 Att: 8
Mrl: 10 Def: 6
Mrst: 16 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Amphibian 2

Magic: Water 2, Nature 1, Random 2
Weapons: Fist

Gold: 220 Res: 1

********************************

New Unit:
RS Himura Battosai (Base creature: RS Himura Battosai)

HP: 11 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 19
Mrl: 18 Def: 18
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 2 AP: 42

Hero, Assassin, Stealthy 20, Air Shield 50
Magic Quickness, Quickness 75

Weapons: Battosai no Katana
Items: Robe, Godlike Speed

********************************

[General Tacticus]

I must say the new costs seem rather better balanced... I have no problem with a race that get super units (giants do, after all, or Ulm) if the costs are balanced.

Regarding my concern about daimyo's stats, I didn't doubt that you arrived by them honstly, I ust feared they were too good for the price. I see you have adjusted the price up, which is good.
By the way, how well do they do against, say, Ulm's Black Lord ? He is still quite a bit more expensive, which is normal (lance, shield, better prot), So I hope he kicks their *** http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I still have some concern regarding peasants. I am not saying their price doesn't reflect their value, because it does; but a 3 gold 1 ress unit could still lead to abuse, I fear. Even in an average castle, you could easily recruit 50 of them with that province's income. They'd make good units for a siege, perfect arrow fodder, they could easily soften the enemy quite a bit (by tiring his heavy infantry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). They would also make great AI deterrent (WOW, he's got HUGE armies, let's not attack). Perhaps they should leave after a fight like gladiators and your ronins ?

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by General Tacticus:
I must say the new costs seem rather better balanced... I have no problem with a race that get super units (giants do, after all, or Ulm) if the costs are balanced.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, balance is my top priority, because I can't stand playing with other people's unbalanced mods, no matter how interesting, realistic, or creative they may be. The biggest problem... I don't know how they'll do in a real combat situation, exposed to enemy archers!

Regarding my concern about daimyo's stats, I didn't doubt that you arrived by them honstly, I ust feared they were too good for the price. I see you have adjusted the price up, which is good.
By the way, how well do they do against, say, Ulm's Black Lord ? He is still quite a bit more expensive, which is normal (lance, shield, better prot), So I hope he kicks their *** http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">C:\Projects\Java\Dominions>java Fight rs.daimyo ulm.black.lord

'RS Daimyo' versus 'Ulm Black Lord' in 40000 bouts.

~ Attacker's Deathmatch Statistics ~

Score: --------------------- 122
Wins: ---------------------- 12.26%
Losses: -------------------- 87.75%
Ties: ---------------------- .00%
Timeouts: ------------------ .00%
Kills per fresh team: ------ .14
Kills per battle: ---------- .13
Kills per round: ----------- .03
Losses per battle: --------- .88
Life expectancy (rounds): -- 6.04
Life expectancy (battles): - 1.06
Avg. Rounds Elapsed: ------- 5.74
Avg. Rounds to Win: -------- 8.91
Avg. Rounds to Lose: ------- 5.30
Avg. Rounds to Tie: -------- .00

~ Attacker's Gauntlet Statistics ~

Score: --------------------- 354
Wins: ---------------------- 35.33%
Losses: -------------------- 64.41%
Ties: ---------------------- .00%
Timeouts: ------------------ .27%
Kills per fresh team: ------ .55
Kills per battle: ---------- .36
Kills per round: ----------- .08
Losses per battle: --------- .65
Life expectancy (rounds): -- 7.17
Life expectancy (battles): - 1.46
Avg. Rounds Elapsed: ------- 4.94
Avg. Rounds to Win: -------- 5.57
Avg. Rounds to Lose: ------- 4.57
Avg. Rounds to Tie: -------- .00

Well, you got your wish=)

Note: the "kills per X" statistics may be off slightly... I'll have to examine it.

I still have some concern regarding peasants. I am not saying their price doesn't reflect their value, because it does; but a 3 gold 1 ress unit could still lead to abuse, I fear. Even in an average castle, you could easily recruit 50 of them with that province's income. They'd make good units for a siege, perfect arrow fodder, they could easily soften the enemy quite a bit (by tiring his heavy infantry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). They would also make great AI deterrent (WOW, he's got HUGE armies, let's not attack). Perhaps they should leave after a fight like gladiators and your ronins ? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As for the AI... ugh. Though I think they use more than just numbers in determining strength... and supply is always a great limiter. Though the Wise Man does have a point of nature, giving rise to winebags...

Anyway, tiring expensive troops are what peasants are for=) As for the castle defense concerns... on one hand, a defender was a defender, once in a castle... but on the other hand, yes, it would be a huge advantage to quickly and cheaply recruit that defense. And more importantly, recruit them for beseiging, which DOES seem a little unrealistic. I had not considered either one. I was trying to balance them versus lobo guards, but lobo guards are mindless and thus worthless for castle defense.

To balance them for patrols (they'd be terrible) I gave them low movement, since patrol effectiveness is based on action points (or so I hear).

Well, I'll have to give peasants more thought, especially since the concerns you mention cannot be tested in the combat sim.

-Cherry

[ January 09, 2004, 08:23: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

The main reason I think that militia have their cost at what it is, is to discourage patrolling. This is just a observation of my own, but it works for me. Early patrolling can be semi-exploitive but I don't think making it easier would unbalance the game because of the effects of patroling and taxing on population. Or maybe so that patrolling units arn't as prevelant to allow some stealth tactics.

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Anyway, tiring expensive troops are what peasants are for=) As for the castle defense concerns... on one hand, a defender was a defender, once in a castle... but on the other hand, yes, it would be a huge advantage to quickly and cheaply recruit that defense. And more importantly, recruit them for beseiging, which DOES seem a little unrealistic. I had not considered either one. I was trying to balance them versus lobo guards, but lobo guards are mindless and thus worthless for castle defense.

To balance them for patrols (they'd be terrible) I gave them low movement, since patrol effectiveness is based on action points (or so I hear).

Well, I'll have to give peasants more thought, especially since the concerns you mention cannot be tested in the combat sim.

-Cherry <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I myself was thinking of Hogsburg militias. They are more expensive, can be recruited only in Hogsburg provinces, and are more vulnerable to trample (size 1). I don't remember if they have better stats. The lobo guards on the other hand are sea only IIRC, and mindless (which is both good and bad).

The problem with peasant balance is that it is very difficult to test. Even if we could send, say, 90 peasants against 30 militias to balance them cost-wise, it would only balance them for AI use (which has no qualms against sending big armies of worthless troops). A player would use them differently... I myself am thinking of a screen of 25 peasants, in 5 squads of 5, forming a long front line the width of the battlefield, on attack closest. For the price of a good knight (the Ulm Version), I have protected my good troops against the first arrows volleys and any flanking movement, at least by the AI. Definitely woth it...

I did the same thing with great success with Pythium, only with gladiators (who were a bit more expensive but could kick some serious *** had great moral). I am doing the same with Mictlan in my AAR, with slaves (who are free but have to be captured, which takes time) and the cheapest warriors (9 gold 2 res). My concern is not the power of the peasants, it is their availability and cheapness...

Look at it this was : your race has cheap arrow fodder, medium priced average units, good heavy units, archers (though I don't know how good your bows are), good cavalry, the best stealth selection I have ever seen, good sacred units that are reasonbly priced (very rare !), decent mages including one with two random picks (very versatile), average priests, good commanders.

None of these fields are, in itself, unbalancing. I can't point at any one (except maybe the peasants, and I am not sure how well they'll do in real condition) and say : THIS is too much. But still I wonder...

Let me just give you one advice : far better to do a first release of the race that is too weak, than too strong. In the first case, people will be delighted when you make it better. In the second, it will be much hader to make them accept a tune-down.

[Saber Cherry]

Well, I wrote a little scale-rebalancing mod. Not that it makes them better, just more the way I feel they should feel.

Changes:

Major event frequency changed from 15% of events to 12%.

Order affects event frequency at 2% per scale, not 5%. I felt decoupling order and luck was very important.

Luck/Misfortune increases events by 7% per scale, not 5%. This is to make up for reducing the event frequency with a high turmoil.

Luck/Misfortune affect event polarity (good/bad) by 13% per scale, not 10%. Now the percentage of positive events is like this:

Luck : probability an event is good
3 : 89
2 : 76
1 : 63
0 : 50
-1 : 37
-2 : 24
-3 : 11

Growth/death changed from 0.2% population change per scale to 0.3%. Before there was no reason to ever choose Growth 3.

Capitol population by turn 30 (2.5 years):

Original, 3 growth: 35900
Rebalanced, 3 growth: 39200
Original, 3 death: 25000
Rebalanced, 3 death: 22900

...a minor change. I wish I could set a base of .1% growth at neutral scale.

Now, I just need a host=)

-Cherry

P.S. In the meantime, if you want it, pm me with an email address.

[ January 12, 2004, 21:31: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Johan K]

If it has a cute banner we'll be glad to put the Saber scale mod on our page. Right after the trolls mod. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif
http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/mods.html

[Saber Cherry]

Cute - I think I can manage that=)

[Saber Cherry]

Two new immobile pretenders added:

New Unit:
Tree of Life (Base creature: Tree of Life)

HP: 220 Str: 20
Prot: 12 Att: 5
Mrl: 30 Def: 0
Mrst: 18 Prec: 5
Enc: 0 AP: 2
Reinvig: 0 Regen: 22

Resistances:

Fire: -50 Cold: 0
Shock: 0 Poison: 0

God, Awe 2

Magic: Nature 3

*********************************

New Unit:
Volcano Spirit (Base creature: Volcano Spirit)

HP: 1000 Str: 20
Prot: 40 Att: 7
Mrl: 30 Def: 0
Mrst: 18 Prec: 10
Enc: 0 AP: 2

Resistances:

Fire: 100 Cold: 0
Shock: 0 Poison: 100

God, Lifeless, Heat 20

Magic: Fire 2, Blood 1
Weapons: Lava Blob

*********************************

The Tree of Life will be available to Man, Mictlan, Pangaea, Pythium, Arco, and Tien Chi. Animals flock to it constantly - like the Summon Animals spell, with the number per turn dependant on dominion strength. It also produces 100 supply.

The Volcano Spirit is actually a volcano. It will be an option for Mictlan, Machaka, Pangaea, and Vanheim (cold places are volcanically active too!). Not Abysia, since they already have a volcano. Volcanoes like blood sacrifices, though... I wish there was a way to make it demand blood sacrifices, or else cause luck to drop drastically. Note that the volcano is virtually impervious to damage. I'll make additional paths cost 800 or so... I don't want it casting mistform or breath of winter.

You didn't add the Design Points per cost. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And maybe you want to add Immortal for the Tree?

If/when they fix it so that you can't teleport/trapeze with immobile pretenders it shouldn't be an issue with him tooling around in your domain killing things instead of sitting at home and making animals.

Perhaps more useful or thematic would be instead of animals (which are sort of 'bleh' but okay for low dominion) you could make fantastic creatures flock to in high dominion. Unicorns, Sprites, etc.

Edit: I don't really know what to say about the Volcano Spirit.

[ January 14, 2004, 05:20: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
You didn't add the Design Points per cost. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, they don't affect anything in combat so I never bothered to add them to the sim=) I may as well...

And maybe you want to add Immortal for the Tree?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good idea! Though... I'm not sure. Normal trees can regrow from stumps, but the Tree of Life? Maybe.

Perhaps more useful or thematic would be instead of animals (which are sort of 'bleh' but okay for low dominion) you could make fantastic creatures flock to in high dominion. Unicorns, Sprites, etc.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I like that too=) Mundane animals at a high rate, and magical animals at the greatly reduced rate like the Ghost King gets ghosts (very slow).

Edit: I don't really know what to say about the Volcano Spirit. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hahaha... you know, it's not really much stronger than the Sphynx. With 800 point paths and no item slots, it would always be susceptible to water/air/astral/armor-piercing attacks. So I think the combat power is reasonable, at least versus fireproof opponents.

Or is the problem that it is too big? Sphynxes are big, but volcanoes are way bigger... So, alternately, I could have the volcano as a special capitol Blood site, and let the spirit possess a follower. Thus the physical representation would be an immortal human with magic paths, and strat move 0.

Lots of primitives worshipped volcanoes (at least in movies) and this isn't really reflected in Dominions...

[ January 14, 2004, 05:36: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Arralen]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Well, I wrote a little scale-rebalancing mod. Not that it makes them better, just more the way I feel they should feel.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">!%&$%!! .. you beat me to it .. got home from work so late I didn't bother firing up DOM ... .


I wish I could set a base of .1% growth at neutral scale.
-Cherry
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I second this. Strongly.
Better yet, we should be able to set
#basegrowth xx ... the basic growth (times 0.1%)
#maxpopfac xx ... max. pop. in province, in multiples of the terrain-dependend standard number; times 0.1)

Effective growth would be something like
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">(basegrowth+deathdeath*scale)*(Number of inhabitants/(maxpopfac*Standard Pop Number))
.eq.
effgrowth
.leq.
(basegrowth+deathdeath*scale)</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hope I got that right .. I'm out of that business for quite some time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

What does it mean?
Simply - every province has a "standard pop size", which is derived by the game engine from terrain and size. Normally this number is slightly randomized for use in the actual game.

Now we set a "base growth" and a "maximum population factor". This means the pop may grow with a growth/death scale of "0" with diminishing returns as soon as the actual number exceeds the standard size, until the numbers is the "pop factor" times the "standard pop size", when growth stops.

So a growth +3 will get you people faster, but not more in the (very) long run - pop will not grow endlessly.

And you'll need "Death 1" to stop man from "being fruitful and rapidly multiplying" .. think this is much more realistic, and might even work better with the current game mechanics (esp. bad random events http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

A.

edited: formula .. didn't get it right

[ January 14, 2004, 06:59: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Good idea! Though... I'm not sure. Normal trees can regrow from stumps, but the Tree of Life? Maybe. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When I think of "Tree of Life" I think in one direction to Terry Brooks Shannanaannnanancan'tspell series. Which was more representative of a symbol, but also 'knew' when it was going to die and was 'reborn'. Though this could be represented just as well with Call God.

Just the idea of the cycle of nature. Also it could cure itself of afflictions, which would be nice (though hopefuly it won't be able to get (m)any).

Or is the problem that it is too big? Sphynxes are big, but volcanoes are way bigger... So, alternately, I could have the volcano as a special capitol Blood site, and let the spirit possess a follower. Thus the physical representation would be an immortal human with magic paths, and strat move 0. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, Sphynxes are big, I didn't really like their representation much either (I prefer the Glyph and Fountains, even the Monolith is okay)

But I think it's because of their big noses. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif And while the Sphynxes are big, mountains and volcanoes are bigger.

Worship of a Volcano is all good. But I think the physical representation (Like a Giant but covered in flame) that leaps out of the crater when threatened would be... easier to handle in my mind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Saber Cherry]

New magic site:
Cliff of Legend. "Jump to test your faith in God"
Level: Air 2

Entering the site gives the commander and all his followers a 50% chance of becoming sacred, and a 50% chance of instant death... modified by the local dominion strength or luck scale, possibly. Only non-flying units can enter. Sacred units always survive.


The Forge of Masamune. "Enter to Reforge your Weapons"
Level: Earth 3

Earth mages may enter the site with troops. This gives the troops permanent "Weapons of Sharpness", though it only alters 1 unit per Earth level per turn.


The Sealed Mine
Level: Astral 2

This gold mine was immensly productive... until a shaft went a bit too deep, unsealing the temple of an extinct subterranian race, honoring long-forgotten gods. The race and their gods may rest, but whatever caused their demise still lurks within... and so it was sealed by powerful human mages in the ancient past.
Once discovered and unsealed, it produces 120 gold per turn, increases unrest by 10, and increases the local magic scale by 2. But periodically, horrors - or worse - will venture out...

-Cherry

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arralen:
Now we set a "base growth" and a "maximum population factor". This means the pop may grow with a growth/death scale of "0" with diminishing returns as soon as the actual number exceeds the standard size, until the numbers is the "pop factor" times the "standard pop size", when growth stops.

So a growth +3 will get you people faster, but not more in the (very) long run - pop will not grow endlessly.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep! Sort of like... oh... Master of Orion or Stars! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif That would make the game's population dynamics much more palatable to me=)

And you'll need "Death 1" to stop man from "being fruitful and rapidly multiplying" .. think this is much more realistic, and might even work better with the current game mechanics<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly. The devs must be pretty religious... in Dominions people can't even reproduce without a God's influence http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

P.S. Would you mind making your equation 2 or 3 lines instead of 1? It makes the screen scroll horizontally as is=)

-Cherry

[ January 14, 2004, 06:02: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[void]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
New magic site:
Cliff of Legend. "Jump to test your faith in God"
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">/bud http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Just a side note.

There are plenty of historical and religous references of polythestic gods that are related to 'misfortune' or bad luck that people gave an offering to keep them at bay (or even just spirits).

We have a Lady of Fortune, why not a Lady of Misfortune? (For the D&D Forgotten Realms crew, Black Bess type)

I know its kind of crazy with our current standings of bad events, but maybe the Mistress of Misfortune would be something that could be looked into http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
We have a Lady of Fortune, why not a Lady of Misfortune?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As long as it was stealthy... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[void]

The Farm of Onion. "Fragrant, Sweet, Delicious and...atishooooooo!"
Level: Air 2

Entering the site gives the commander and all his followers a 50% chance heal they disease.
15% his troops will plagued by "Fright" -- Morale-4.(oh,not a battle fright...we may call it 'onion fright' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )
This site also provides 50 food supplies.

[ January 14, 2004, 06:56: Message edited by: void ]

[Saber Cherry]

New Magic Site:
Library of Elemental Magic
"Enter to Study Magic"
Level: Fire 3 (Ideally, L-3 in any elemental path)

Any mage may enter. Every turn studying gives a slight chance of raising the mage's level in each elemental path, equal to 2.5/(empowerment cost). So, for example, a 0-Earth 1-Air 2-Fire 3-Water mage studying would have (each turn) a 5% chance of boosting Earth by 1, 8.3% for Air, 5.6% chance for Fire, and 4.2% for Water, and gain roughly .23 magic skill per turn. A theoretical level 4,4,4,4 mage would advance at a much slower .13/turn, or about 7.5 turns per advance (he'd have much better things to do).


New Magic Site:
Library of Sorcery
"Enter to Study Magic"
Level: Death 3 (Ideally, L-3 in any elemental path)

Any mage may enter. Every turn studying gives a slight chance of raising the mage's level in each sorcery path, equal to 2.5/(empowerment cost). So, for example, a 0-Astral 1-Nature 2-Death 3-Blood mage studying would have (each turn) a 5% chance of boosting Astral by 1, 8.3% for Nature, 5.6% chance for Death, and 4.2% for Blood, and gain roughly .23 magic skill per turn. A theoretical level 4,4,4,4 mage would advance at a much slower .13/turn, or about 7.5 turns per advance (he'd have much better things to do).


New Magic Site:
Great Library
Level: Astral 0

Provides a free lab.
Decreases unrest by 5.

Mages flock to the great library to peruse the unique tomes. Any mage researching in this province gets a +3 research bonus, independant of the drain scale. However, not all ancient secrets are meant to be learned, and there is a slight risk (8%) of becoming horror-marked while studying... Also, mages like their peace and quiet, and have been known to turn local agitators into frogs, which reduces unrest somewhat.

[MythicalMino]

Saber...have you got these magic sites already done up? If so, where can i get them?

Thanks

Chris

[Saber Cherry]

Sorry, no site modding yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

This thread is just a compilation of what I plan to add when it is possible. However:

1) Some of it will never be possible unless the stuff is explicitly supported in the game code, at which point it really wouldn't be a 3rd party mod anymore.
2) Illwinter is more than welcome to snag anything in this thread and add it (or support for it) to Dominions II http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

-Cherry

P.S. More alterations:

Satyrs get 2 natural protection.

Celestial Warriors changed from AAS to AWS.

Full Scale Mail gets +1 def (to -2). It's REALLY bad otherwise.
TC Full Leather Armor units get Full Linen Armor. Stats:
name=Full_Leather_Armor aprot=6 def=-1 enc=1 res=3
name=Full_Linen_Armor aprot=6 enc=1 res=4 new=1

Vanheim Fay Boar made sacred. Does anyone actually use them? There's no reason they should demand so much gold=)

Lorica Segmentata increased from 10 resources to 11 resources.

Ctis Falchioneer given ambidextrous 3, not 2.

Thoughts:
Should Ulm be given +1 strength?
Should Ulm Sappers get +1 HP?

[ January 16, 2004, 20:14: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

Celestial Warriors changed from AAS to AWS.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Three paths not possible.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Saber Cherry:

Celestial Warriors changed from AAS to AWS.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Three paths not possible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Awww=( Maybe I should give Celestial Masters 2 randoms... or a random and an elemental random... and reduce water by 1. I'm not really sure why they have water anyway.

[Kristoffer O]

The Celestial Masters are based upon the taoistic T'ien Shih (celestial masters), leaders of the taoistic cult during certain times. An important concept in taoism is wu wei (inaction/not doing).

Water being yielding and changing is the closest representation of wu wei I could come up with.

Also water, according to Lao Tzu, is 'of all things most yielding and can overwhelm [rock] which is of all things most hard' (43)

Uhm, why not just change the 2 Air Req to 2 Water? As that is the closest representation you could find, and the Astral is "Celestial"?

Or maybe change it to "Holy 3" ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This would limit it *Only* to CM's, no pretenders or anything could summon the Soldiers.

Just a few thoughts.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
Uhm, why not just change the 2 Air Req to 2 Water? As that is the closest representation you could find, and the Astral is "Celestial"?

Or maybe change it to "Holy 3" ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This would limit it *Only* to CM's, no pretenders or anything could summon the Soldiers.

Just a few thoughts. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt holy can be a requirement...
Anyway- I think I'll change it to 1 air, 1 astral. I would go 1 air, 2 water, but I think that would force water gems to be used when casting.

Additional change:

Vanheim: All Vanheim troops get 25% cold resistance. They should have learned how to dress warmly, and evolved higher metabolisms, and so forth...

Atlantis:
Additional unit, "Shark Warrior".
Base: Atlantian, Weapon: Sharktooth Mace, Equipment: Sharkskin Armor, Turtle Shell Shield

Sharktooth Mace: A mace carved from the jawbone of a large shark, retaining the rows of razor-sharp teeth.
dam=5 att=1 res=3 (no poison damage)

Sharkskin Hauberk: A hauberk made from the rough hide of a large shark.
aprot=5 enc=1 res=3

Machaka: Added "Machaka Raider".
Base unit: Machakan Raider (Same stats as a Machakan, except: stealthy, 13 base AP, 11 morale, 11 gold)
Equipment: Spear, Shortbow, Hide Shield

Added "Raiding Party Leader"
Base Unit: Same as Machaka Raider, but 25 gold, 10 leadership, and +1 att, def, mrl, and stealthy 5.
Equipment: Same as Raider.

Details:

C:\Projects\Java\Dominions>java Unit at.shark.warrior mac.raider mac.raiding.par
ty.leader

New Unit:
AT Shark Warrior (Base creature: Atlantian)

HP: 12 Str: 11
Prot: 9 Att: 10
Mrl: 10 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Weapons: Sharktooth Mace
Items: Sharkskin Hauberk, Turtle Shell Shield

Gold: 10 Res: 7

*********************************

New Unit:
MAC Raider (Base creature: MAC Raider)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 2 Att: 10
Mrl: 11 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Stealthy 0

Weapons: Spear, Short Bow
Items: Hide Shield

Gold: 11 Res: 5

*********************************

New Unit:
MAC Raiding Party Leader (Base creature: MAC Raiding Party Leader)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 2 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Stealthy 5

Weapons: Spear, Short Bow
Items: Hide Shield

Gold: 25 Res: 5

*********************************

C:\Projects\Java\Dominions>java Weapon Sharktooth.mace

Weapon 'Sharktooth Mace'
dam=5, hits=1, att=1, length=1, hands=1, res=3
new=1


C:\Projects\Java\Dominions>java Item sharkskin.cuirass sharkskin.hauberk full.sh
arkskin.armor

Item 'Sharkskin Cuirass'
aprot=4, res=2
new=1

Item 'Sharkskin Hauberk'
aprot=5, enc=1, res=3
new=1

Item 'Full Sharkskin Armor'
aprot=7, def=-1, enc=2, res=5
new=1

P.S.

Unarmored satyrs: Need to be cheaper. I'll adjust all satyr costs - maybe 7 gold minimum. Harpies may need cheapening too, but probably not.

[ January 18, 2004, 17:58: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Saber Cherry]

New Theme:

"Caelian Ice Age"
Polar bears, sabertooth cats, and killer whales (underwater only - summoning spell). Possibly Snow Golems (special Caelum spell). Caelum's affinity would change from air to water, and the archers would be given ice arrows.

New Capitol special site, The Evergrowing Glacier: Water Mage may Enter to Summon Ice Elementals (size 3).
New Capitol special site, Ice Cave: Ice Drake may be recuited here.

-Cherry

[Wauthan]

Summoning Icedrakes and elementals sounds pretty tough. Maybe if the mages ran a risk of being attacked by something nasty?

Perhaps you could make a Caelum Version of R'lyeh summoning gate? The evercold portal could summon a variety of cold theme creatures with a chance of the mage getting attacked or getting diseased (catching a cold?). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

And changing Air to Water will allow them to enter water provinces a lot sooner. Something to keep in mind perhaps.

I want more animal summoning spells.
Claws of winter, 2 nature 1 water 1 air: Summons cold theme beasties.
Waters Call: 3 water 1 nature: Summons water animals like whales, sharks and squids.
Fangs of the Desert, 2 nature 1 earth 1 fire: Summons the likes of snakes, scorpions, camels and vultures.

Perhaps it's because I'm a biologist but an army of animals is too cool to ignore. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Saber Cherry]

Announcing...

ICE AGE MOD

Yaay!!!

Current races:

1) Caelian Ice Age (below). Forced Cold+3

2) Ice Age Man (Man theme)
Iron has yet to be invented. Man uses armors of wood, leather, and fur, and weapons of wood and stone. Forced Cold+1

3) Ice Age Neanderthals (Ulm theme)
The strong and durable Ulmish ancestors went to battle wearing incredibly heavy stone-platemail armors. Forced Cold+1

4) Ice Age Saurians (Ctis theme)
I'm hoping you can guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Forced Heat 0 or less (but still coldblooded).


Armors to be used for Man and Ulm:
(Possibly, the laminated wood will be restricted to Ice Age "Asia", whatever that will be named)

name=Oak_Shield aprot=2 def=2 enc=1 hands=1 shield=1 res=2 new=1
//A heavy shield of solid oak.
name=Laminated_Wood_Shield aprot=2 def=2 hands=1 shield=1 res=4 new=1
//A lightweight shield made of many layers of thind wood sheets.
name=Pumice_Shield aprot=0 def=1 hands=1 shield=1 res=1 fireproof=25 new=1
//Pumice is highly fire resistant, but very weak and brittle.
//Shields carved from pumice can protect against arrows, slings, and firey breath, but not heavy melee weapons.
name=Mica_Shield aprot=2 def=2 hands=1 shield=1 res=5 new=1
//When available in large enough sheets, the pliability and laminar nature of mica makes it ideal for shields.
//However, it is rare to find large enough pieces.


//*** Helms ***

//Mundane
name=Wood_Helmet aprot=1 res=1 new=1
//Wooden helmets are carved from a single block, and usually made of softwood.
name=Jade_Helmet aprot=2 def=-1 enc=1 res=4 new=1
//Jade is used for helmets, as it carves more readily than flint, though it is not as strong.

//*** Body Armor ***

//Hides
name=Furs aprot=4 def=-1 enc=1 res=1
name=Leather_Cuirass aprot=3 res=1
name=Leather_Hauberk aprot=4 res=2
name=Full_Leather_Armor aprot=6 def=-1 enc=1 res=3


//Wood
name=Maple_Breastplate aprot=5 def=-1 res=2 new=1
name=Laminated_Wood_Platemail_Cuirass aprot=4 res=4 new=1
name=Laminated_Wood_Platemail_Hauberk aprot=6 def=-1 enc=6 res=3 new=1
name=Laminated_Wood_Platemail_Armor aprot=8 def=-2 enc=1 res=8 new=1
//The latter 3 are platemails made of laminated wooden plates, sewn together with silk or twine.
//These armors are very lightweight, but their bulk impedes mobility.
//Their laminar construction makes them stronger and less flammable than ordinary wood.
//Creating the many-layered laminar plates is quite time-consuming.

//Stone
name=Flint_Platemail_Cuirass aprot=9 def=-1 enc=2 res=12 new=1
name=Flint_Platemail_Hauberk aprot=11 def=-2 enc=4 res=15 new=1
name=Flint_Platemail_Armor aprot=14 def=-4 enc=5 res=19 new=1
//Flint armors are carved and chipped into crude plates, pierced, and sewn together with twine.
//Stone lacks tensile strength and is more brittle than other materials, so despite its low density,
//the requisite thickness of the plates makes stone armors exceedingly heavy.
//Assembling the armor from plates is fairly simple...
//but mining, chipping, carving, and smoothing make the creation of such armors very tedious.

Comments?

-Cherry

[Wauthan]

Stoneplate armour? Laminated wood? Now you're pushing my suspension of disbelief. If they're iceage wouldn't they use simpler technology for their armor? Just give them various furs and skins from monsters instead.

By the way, monsters should be a lot more scary for the primeval inhabitants of Dominions. Most of the independant forces could be switched to Beasts and the likes. Population should be scarcer as well.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Wauthan:
Stoneplate armour? Laminated wood? Now you're pushing my suspension of disbelief. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, I'll stay with the more realistic winged flying humans that wear Ice armor and call thunder down from the heavens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

It's a fantasy mod, not a historic one - the independants will use simpler stuff. No metals, stone plate mail, or laminar wood for them.

Well if it's the stone age. Don't put in the 'plate' part of your equipment. "Crafted Stone Moomoo" would be more more indicitive of craftmanship in the Ice Age.

[Wauthan]

Hehe, well you sort of misunderstood me. I meant that making such armor means that they are not exactly on stoneage level of technology and it sort of looses it's prehistory feel.

Making worthwhile armor of such brittle and bulky materials would be a challenge even for the tools of today. And your mod shows that they are well on par with steel armor. But perhaps it's in comparison with the weapons of the time? One could of course jump in and say "it's magic materials" in a fantasy setting but it's sort of stretching it.

Armor made out of skins, furs and bones don't offer nearly the same protection but they are much lighter and would be fast enough to produce to equip a small army.

I'm sorry I brought this up. It's your mod after all and I should know better then to comment on its setting.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Wauthan:
I'm sorry I brought this up. It's your mod after all and I should know better then to comment on its setting. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, please, don't feel that way=) I'll probably tone down the stone stats. But if you ever go to a museum with a jade exhibit, check it out - the stuff they did with jade is amazing. Chains, for example... wow.

By the way, I decided to make a new Ice Age thread (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=001006). Anyway, I agree that stone plate armor and prehistoric pre-bronze societies making high-quality laminated wood are pretty unrealistic... but I think they're more realistic than coral hauberks and heat-radiating Abysians. Because they actually COULD exist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Moreover, wood laminate armor was used in "Magician: Apprentice / Master" and stone armor was used in Chrono Trigger, so both have proper fantasy credentials=)

However... I'd love an injection of realism... so if you want to pick a nation or two, go for it! Pangaea might be a good choice=)

-Cherry

[ January 19, 2004, 20:44: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

I was planning on a Mod based around the Tsurani actually. But was waiting for a 'full' set of mod tools before I do it. I'd rather not make half a mod now and make a whole mod later, when they actually include the tools in order to make it happen.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
I was planning on a Mod based around the Tsurani actually. But was waiting for a 'full' set of mod tools before I do it. I'd rather not make half a mod now and make a whole mod later, when they actually include the tools in order to make it happen. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A tsunami (http://tsunamichan.keenspace.com/) mod? I suppose that would work...

Hah, Tsurani. Aliens of Kelewan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Afraid of horses. Riding Needra and wearing brightly colored armor based on their house and clan and political party.

Black Robes galore!

[Saber Cherry]

Oh THEM!!! That's right. They remind me of Mictlan.

Now that I think about it, I thought about Dominions an awful lot while reading those books. Of course Mictlan had not been invented yet, but it's not a very good parallel anyway. And Dominions doesn't really have elves or dwarves as major components. I guess Feist's elves are close to Dominions Tuatha... and the central, crumbling kingdom was very reminescent of Ermor.

[ January 20, 2004, 04:49: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Cherry, roll me out a new list of your Rising Sun theme units. I'd like to critique them. And you know you like a good logic lashing!

[Saber Cherry]

I don't think they've changed a lot since Last time, but:

Edit: Oh, I DID adjust some of the gold costs that were too low. Like the monks.

New Unit:
RS Peasant (Base creature: RS Peasant)

HP: 7 Str: 7
Prot: 0 Att: 6
Mrl: 6 Def: 5
Mrst: 9 Prec: 9
Enc: 7 AP: 6

Weapons: Kama
Items: Straw Hat

Gold: 3 Res: 1

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Militia (Base creature: RS Militia)

HP: 8 Str: 9
Prot: 4 Att: 8
Mrl: 7 Def: 8
Mrst: 9 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Weapons: Te Yari
Items: Hachi, Leather Cuirass

Gold: 6 Res: 4

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug Nunchaku (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 7 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Nunchaku, Nunchaku
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin Thug Wakizashi (Base creature: RS Ronin Thug)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 7 Att: 11
Mrl: 9 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Wakizashi, Tanto
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 6 Res: 1

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Ronin (Base creature: RS Ronin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 8 Res: 4

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Ashigaru (Base creature: RS Ashigaru)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 7 Att: 10
Mrl: 9 Def: 9
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Hachi, Tatami Do

Gold: 9 Res: 9

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Archer (Base creature: RS Samurai Archer)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 8 Att: 10
Mrl: 10 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 11

Weapons: Wakizashi, Yumi
Items: Hachi, Mougami Do

Gold: 10 Res: 14

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Yari Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 10
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Su Yari
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 14

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Light Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 21

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Nodachi Samurai (Base creature: RS Light Samurai)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 10
Enc: 5 AP: 10

Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Kabuto, Haramaki Do

Gold: 12 Res: 24

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 10
Mrl: 11 Def: 12
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 6 AP: 9

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 29

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 10
Prot: 14 Att: 10
Mrl: 11 Def: 9
Mrst: 10 Prec: 9
Enc: 6 AP: 9

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 13 Res: 25

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 10
Mrl: 12 Def: 11
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Katana
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 14 Res: 34

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Heavy Naginata Samurai (Base creature: RS Heavy Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 10
Mrl: 12 Def: 8
Mrst: 10 Prec: 8
Enc: 7 AP: 8

Weapons: Naginata
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 14 Res: 30

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Elite Samurai (Base creature: RS Elite Samurai)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 14 Att: 11
Mrl: 13 Def: 12
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 6 AP: 10

Ambidextrous 3

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Nuinobe Do

Gold: 16 Res: 29

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Cavalry (Base creature: RS Samurai Cavalry)

HP: 13 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 14
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 20

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Hoof
Items: Wakizashi, Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 42

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Horse Archer (Base creature: RS Horse Archer)

HP: 12 Str: 11
Prot: 10 Att: 11
Mrl: 11 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 4 AP: 24

Mounted

Weapons: Te Yari, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 25 Res: 14

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Blind Monk (Base creature: RS Blind Monk)

HP: 9 Str: 10
Prot: 11 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 16
Mrst: 14 Prec: 4
Enc: 3 AP: 8

Sacred

Weapons: Iron Fist, Iron Fist, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 32 Res: 12

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 13
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Knife Hand, Nerve Strike, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 22 Res: 3

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Bo (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 22 Res: 3

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Sai (Base creature: RS Monk)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 17
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Sai, Sai, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 22 Res: 6

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja (Base creature: RS Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 12 Def: 16
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Stealthy 20, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Sai, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 20 Res: 10

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Monk Commander (Base creature: RS Monk Commander)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 5 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred, Stealthy 0, Ambidextrous 3

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 50 Res: 1

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinto Master (Base creature: RS Shinto Master)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 1 Att: 11
Mrl: 14 Def: 15
Mrst: 15 Prec: 10
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 3
Weapons: Bo, Kick
Items: Robe

Gold: 110 Res: 1

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Samurai Commander (Base creature: RS Samurai Commander)

HP: 12 Str: 10
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 13 Def: 11
Mrst: 11 Prec: 11
Enc: 7 AP: 9

Ambidextrous 3

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 30 Res: 34

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Mounted Commander (Base creature: RS Mounted Commander)

HP: 13 Str: 10
Prot: 10 Att: 12
Mrl: 13 Def: 16
Mrst: 11 Prec: 12
Enc: 4 AP: 26

Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Daikyu, Hoof
Items: Wakizashi, Hachi, Haramaki Do

Gold: 50 Res: 23

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Daimyo (Base creature: RS Daimyo)

HP: 14 Str: 11
Prot: 17 Att: 12
Mrl: 16 Def: 16
Mrst: 11 Prec: 8
Enc: 5 AP: 22

Ambidextrous 3, Mounted

Weapons: Katana, Wakizashi, Hoof
Items: Kabuto, Yukino****a Do

Gold: 100 Res: 42

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Sword Saint (Base creature: RS Sword Saint)

HP: 12 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 15
Mrl: 15 Def: 15
Mrst: 13 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Sacred

Magic: Holy 2
Weapons: Nodachi
Items: Robe

Gold: 60 Res: 11

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Geisha (Base creature: RS Geisha)

HP: 9 Str: 9
Prot: 0 Att: 9
Mrl: 12 Def: 7
Mrst: 11 Prec: 10
Enc: 4 AP: 10

Seductress, Stealthy 40

Weapons: Tessen, Kansashi

Gold: 75 Res: 1

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Shinobi (Base creature: RS Shinobi)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 11
Mrl: 10 Def: 13
Mrst: 10 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 13

Spy, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Tanto, Blowgun
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 35 Res: 9

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Assassin (Base creature: RS Ninja Assassin)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 12 Def: 13
Mrst: 11 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 13

Assassin, Stealthy 25, Ambidextrous 2

Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 50 Res: 8

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame (Base creature: RS Ninja of the Sacred Flame)

HP: 11 Str: 11
Prot: 3 Att: 14
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 14 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Resistances:

Fire: 100 Cold: 0
Shock: 0 Poison: 0

Assassin, Sacred, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2

Magic: Fire 2
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Enchanted Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 130 Res: 8

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Death Ninja (Base creature: RS Death Ninja)

HP: 10 Str: 10
Prot: 3 Att: 12
Mrl: 13 Def: 13
Mrst: 12 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 30, Ambidextrous 2, Fear -4

Magic: Death 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Poison Dagger, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 80 Res: 8

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Ninja Master (Base creature: RS Ninja Master)

HP: 10 Str: 11
Prot: 3 Att: 13
Mrl: 14 Def: 14
Mrst: 13 Prec: 11
Enc: 3 AP: 12

Assassin, Stealthy 35, Ambidextrous 2

Magic: Fire 1, Random 1
Weapons: Ninja to, Ninja to, Shuriken
Items: Ninja Garb, Kote

Gold: 120 Res: 11

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Wise Man (Base creature: RS Wise Man)

HP: 7 Str: 8
Prot: 0 Att: 8
Mrl: 10 Def: 6
Mrst: 16 Prec: 9
Enc: 5 AP: 8

Amphibian 2

Magic: Water 2, Nature 1, Random 2
Weapons: Fist

Gold: 220 Res: 1

*********************************

New Unit:
RS Himura Battosai (Base creature: RS Himura Battosai)

HP: 11 Str: 12
Prot: 1 Att: 19
Mrl: 18 Def: 18
Mrst: 13 Prec: 10
Enc: 2 AP: 42

Hero, Assassin, Stealthy 20, Air Shield 50
Magic Quickness, Quickness 75

Weapons: Battosai no Katana
Items: Robe, Godlike Speed

*********************************


Weapons:

Weapon 'Blowgun'
dam=-5, hits=1, pierce=50, fatiguedam=50, doesFatigueDam=1, prec=2, ammo=5, rng=10, res=1
new=1

Weapon 'Daikyu'
dam=12, hits=1, prec=1, ammo=12, rng=40, strNotAddedPhysical=1, res=2
new=1

Weapon 'Shuriken'
dam=-2, hits=1, pierce=50, poisondam=5, prec=1, ammo=5, rng=5, res=1
new=1

Weapon 'Enchanted Shuriken'
dam=2, hits=1, pierce=50, magic=1, prec=2, ammo=5, rng=5, undeadDamageBonus=100, demonDamageBonus=100, res=1
new=1

Weapon 'Yumi'
dam=11, hits=1, prec=1, ammo=12, rng=35, strNotAddedPhysical=1, res=2
new=1

Weapon 'Thunder Breath'
hits=1, pierce=100, doesPhysicalDam=-1, shockdam=12, doesShockDam=1, magic=1, aoe=1, ammo=5, rng=9999, strNotAddedShock=1
new=1

Weapon 'Dominate'
dam=999, hits=1, att=10, pierce=100, magic=1, mrnegates=1, mrpenalty=4, mindlessDamageBonus=-100
new=1

Weapon 'Dragon Tail'
dam=2, hits=1, att=-4, length=6
new=1

Weapon 'Freeze'
hits=1, length=6, pierce=100, doesPhysicalDam=-1, colddam=4, doesColdDam=1, magic=1, aoe=1, strNotAddedCold=1
new=1

Weapon 'Lava Punch'
dam=-2, hits=1, hands=1, magic=1, flaming=12
new=1

Weapon 'Knife Hand'
dam=3, hits=1, att=2, def=1, hands=1, res=1
new=1

Weapon 'Nerve Strike'
dam=-2, hits=1, att=-2, def=1, hands=1, fatiguedam=100, doesFatigueDam=1, demonDamageBonus=-100, magicbeingDamageBonus=-100, onlyHurtsLiving=1
new=1

Weapon 'Iron Fist'
dam=-2, hits=2, att=3, def=1, hands=1, pierce=50, res=5
new=1

Weapon 'Suffocate'
hits=2, att=10, pierce=100, fatiguedam=30, doesFatigueDam=1, doesPhysicalDam=-1, aoe=1, onlyHurtsLiving=1
new=1

Weapon 'Huge Stone Club'
dam=14, hits=1, att=-1, def=-1, length=4, hands=1
new=1

Weapon 'Sharktooth Mace'
dam=5, hits=1, att=1, length=1, hands=1, res=3
new=1

Weapon 'Su Yari'
dam=4, hits=1, att=1, length=5, hands=2, res=4
new=1

Weapon 'Te Yari'
dam=4, hits=1, length=4, hands=1, res=2
new=1

Weapon 'Wakizashi'
dam=5, hits=1, def=2, length=1, hands=1, res=4
new=1

Weapon 'Battosai no Katana'
dam=7, hits=2, att=2, def=2, length=2, hands=2, pierce=50
new=1

Weapon 'Tanto'
dam=2, hits=1, att=1, hands=1, res=1
new=1

Weapon 'Tessen'
dam=4, hits=1, att=-1, def=-1, hands=1, res=1
new=1

Weapon 'Sai'
dam=2, hits=1, att=-1, def=3, hands=1, res=2
new=1

Weapon 'Naginata'
dam=8, hits=1, att=1, length=5, hands=2, res=7
new=1

Weapon 'Ninja to'
dam=5, hits=1, att=2, length=1, hands=1, res=3
new=1

Weapon 'Nodachi'
dam=7, hits=1, att=3, def=1, length=3, hands=2, pierce=50, res=11
new=1

Weapon 'Nunchaku'
dam=2, hits=2, att=1, length=1, hands=1, res=1
new=1

Weapon 'Katana'
dam=7, hits=1, att=1, def=1, length=2, hands=1, res=7
new=1

Weapon 'Kama'
dam=4, hits=1, def=-1, length=1, hands=1, res=1
new=1

Weapon 'Kansashi'
dam=3, hits=1, hands=1
new=1

Weapon 'Bo'
dam=2, hits=1, def=4, length=4, hands=2, res=1
new=1


Items:

Item 'Straw Hat'
enc=1
new=1

Item 'Hachi'
aprot=1, res=1
new=1

Item 'Kabuto'
aprot=2, res=4
new=1

Item 'Robe'
aprot=1
new=1

Item 'Ninja Garb'
aprot=2, res=2
stealthy=10, new=1

Item 'Tatami Do'
aprot=6, def=-1, enc=1, res=4
new=1

Item 'Mougami Do'
aprot=7, enc=1, res=7
new=1

Item 'Haramaki Do'
aprot=9, def=-1, enc=2, res=9
new=1

Item 'Nuinobe Do'
aprot=12, def=-2, enc=3, res=14
new=1

Item 'Yukino****a Do'
aprot=15, def=-3, enc=4, res=19
new=1

Item 'Wakizashi'
def=2, hands=1, res=4
new=1

Item 'Kote'
aprot=1, def=2, res=2
new=1

Item 'Godlike Speed'
magic=1
magicQuickness=1, new=1, airshield=50

(considered body armor - replacing it would be detrimental)

[ January 21, 2004, 06:10: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Put in some leadership values for the Commanders. Also I noticed Nerve Strike damage does 100 to Demons and Magic Beings? Is that resisted or damage?

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
Put in some leadership values for the Commanders. Also I noticed Nerve Strike damage does 100 to Demons and Magic Beings? Is that resisted or damage? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I JUST put a "commander" tag in the sim so only Vanheim commanders have leadership values yet. I'll get around to it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The damage bonus is actually "-100" meaning negative 100% for demons and magic, and also it won't damage things that are not alive. So nerve strike does 100 fatigue damage, but only does the damage if physical damage is dealt (like with poison). The damage is strength-2 so armored units will be safe from nerve strikes, but it will generally knock out anyone without enough armor.

In summary: Nerve strike only works on living, non-magical non-demonic low-armor units, but it annihiliates them.

[ January 21, 2004, 06:20: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

There are also ... 22 normal units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Maybe you can combine a few. Also are Ronin the RS equivilant of Gladiators? 1 shot wonders?

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Zen:
There are also ... 22 normal units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Maybe you can combine a few. Also are Ronin the RS equivilant of Gladiators? 1 shot wonders? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep=)

[Saber Cherry]

New CherryMod ideas

Note that a lot of these may not ever be possible, and some might be decided against anyway;)

Changes:

Lifelong Protection cost becomes 10 slaves, and it summons 1 imp per turn, not 2.
Soul Contract will remain basically the same, but will summon a slightly weaker Version of the devil. Stats yet to be determined.

Possible Changes:

Blood nations will all get cheap mages with 1 blood, or their cheapest mage will be given 1 blood and made marginally more expensive. Van, Jotun, and Abysia are still most effective bloodhunting with scouts, which is just wrong.

Vanheim may get a unit with an additional blood level. It currently cannot even forge brazen vessels without a blood pretender.


New Spells:

Restless Herds? Stampede? Something like that.
Nature Ritual, farmland & plains only. Summons a herd of bison (size 3 berserking tramplers, gore, hoof) to attack the province. If they win, it becomes independant.

Red Tide
Nature+Water Ritual, ocean only. Temporarily moves death scale +3 (from whatever it was), increases unrest (+10), kills 5% of the population, and does a very weak poison (str. 1) attack against the local units. This shouldn't cause many deaths unless there is a big army: about 6% of non-poison-immune, 10-HP units will be killed. However, it will cause quite a few afflictions.

Plankton Bloom
Nature+Water, battlefield, underwater only.
Similar to Red Tide in concept, causes explosive growth of toxic plankton. This makes an area 1+ toxic cloud (2 poison damage per turn in the cloud) Lasting 3 rounds.

Jellyfish Swarm
Water, battlefield summon, underwater only. Costs 1 gem. Summons a bunch of small, slow, weak, highly toxic jellyfish with paralyzing poison and long tentacles.

Bloodletting
water-2, blood-1, AOE 3+, fatigue 50, MR saves easily.
Affects living units only. Does nothing, but once an affected unit is wounded by a physical strike, it will lose 1 HP per turn for the rest of the battle... and inevitably die if not regenerating.


Holy Spells:

Faith Armor
Level-4 Holy, area 5, sacred units only.
Gives units "Faith Armor", protection equal to the province's dominion strength, for the rest of the battle. The unit will only get "Faith Armor" if it is better than their current total armor protection (good for flagellants, not good for wardens).

Holy Armor
Level-3 Holy, area 1, range 5, any units.
Blesses the affected units' armor to ward off hostile weapons and spells. The unit gains +1 armor protection and +1 MR. ONLY affects units that are wearing armor (not flagellants, riderless spiders, void summons, etc).


New items:

Cerebral Accelerator (helmet, con-6, Blood-1 Astral-1).
ENC 8, DEF -4, MR -8, cursed
Doubles a mage's total research output, or allows a non-mage commander to research like a mage (2 rp). There is a 15% chance every turn that the mage will become feebleminded, and a smaller (5% each) chance of death or of going insane and attacking the province (as a neutral).

New Creatures:

Boy, these will be a lot of work to draw. I have not even though up stats yet.

Aquatics (some will be mindless or stupid, magically-controlled summons)

Snow Crab
Stone Crab
Hermit Crab (amphibious)
Copper Crab (shockproof)
Sand Crab (amphibious)
Giant Oyster (immobile, makes pearls)
Jellyfish (paralyzing poison)
Leviathan
Stingray
Green Eel (Bite and shock damage)
Abyssal Horror
Abyssal Lurker
Spawn of the Deep

Swamp:
Venus Flytrap (needs a better name...)
Crocodile
Anaconda

Mammals:
Sabertooth Tiger
Polar Bear (cold resist 100)
Arctic Wolf (cold resist 75)
Bison
Elk
Dire Wolf
White Stag (Animal Awe)

Golems:
Snow Golem
Coral Golem
Moss Monster
Glass Mantis (armor-piercing)

Magical:
Gaian Warriors (probably a nature-astral summon)