"War of the Ring" thread

[Keir Maxwell]

Hi all,

I started work on a LotR mod a couple of nights back and the issues involved are huge.

My intention at present (open to change) is to basically hack the existing races to make the mod as compatibility with other mods is fairly irrelevent.

At present I'm working on Morder as it is the most difficult. The first key design question is how to represent orcs/uruks and the best idea I have had so far is to see if its possible to hack the Desert Tomb Ctis so that instead of summoning undead you breed orcs.

I am not planning on including the quest to destroy the ring in the initial mod as, while probably do-able, the added game balence question are somewhat overwhelming and likely to produce a poor product unless given the consideration necessary. Basically Gandalf will have taken Frodo and the Ring to Rivendell rather than going to see Saruman. Elrond hides the ring with enchantments and they prepare for the upcoming war. The full mod with quest can follow.

In terms of magic I'm primarily looking at priestly/unholy powers plus extra starting spells as appropriate - mainly strategic like the ability to summon an orc raiding party in a distant province. The rest of the magic system (research, site searching etc) will be left out as much as is possible.

Sauron will have an income of death gems to represent the "Will of Sauron" which he will have to choose how to spend providing alot of the strategic options for Mordor.

I'm fairly comfortable doing graphical changes, creating new images (like an eye banner) etc but I'm not strong on scripting/programming so I will be needing alot of help from those eager. Working out unit equipment and stats is something I am very well placed to having done the same for Middle Earth in a number of different formats.

A couple of people have offered to help so far - Liga and MStavros and this is a great start.

I have a few nice maps including one that arrived in the mail the other day from as an ad from NZ post (the advantage of being NZ right now re LotR). However most of the maps I have will require a reasonable amount of work editing so if anyone has a particularily appropriate map let me know.

I would like to stress that this is a big project and one I cannot guareentee to complete or do justice to alone. I am happy to make all my work available to everyone and hope that one way or another we end up with a good mod regardless of who actually pulls it all together - I would like to but I'm conscious of real life pressures and don't want to build false expectations.

Mordor troop stats to follow.

Cheers

Keir

[st.patrik]

For a map I suggest you look here (http://www.ititches.com/middleearth/)

Great looking map - only issue is that it has quite a bit of text. But I suspect that the map-maker, Chris Guerette, might be able/willing to work with you on getting a clean copy.

There's also a B&W Version which the map above is based on which has no names here (http://www.taylorcustom.com/localinks/mearth/mearthmap.html)

[UNIVAC]

I think this one is better

nice big map (http://www.webpersonal.net/cyberpunk/warmap.jpg)

I have also a suggestion for races.When i was planning to implement a full game based on LOTR, I was inspired in pen&paper pbm game.It had the following races:

# Woodmen
# Northmen
# Éothraim
# Arthedain
# Cardolan
# North Gondor
# South Gondor
# Dwarves
# Sindar Elves
# Noldor Elves
# WitchKing
# Dragon Lord (2nd Nazgul)
# Dog Lord (3rd Nazgul)
# Cloud Lord (4th Nazgul)
# Blind Sorcerer (5th Nazgul)
# Ice Lord (6th Nazgul)
# Quiet Avenger (7th Nazgul)
# Fire Lord (8th Nazgul)
# Long Rider (9th Nazgul)
# Dark Liutenants
# Corsairs
# Haradwaith
# Dunlendings
# Rhudaur
# Easterlings

Maybe you can avoid using the Nazguls as factions, and substitue them for Sauron and Saruman...but maybe you need some good/evil balance.Its hard to imagine Noldors fighting Gondor :-)
Anyway this list can be useful.

[Keir Maxwell]

Gotta love dom players - you guys are great.

Thanks

Keir

[Saber Cherry]

Ooooh... this looks like fun! I can't wait=)

[Teraswaerto]

Just make sure the Arthedain faction has Hobbit archers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Keir! What do you need?! I can't code or help with anything of actual use, but LoTR gave us our modern fantasay; it deserves a Mod.

I can't wait until you try to figure out a strategic answer of how to get Frodo to 'sneak' into Mount Doom with 20,000 Patrolling units.

[UNIVAC]

Originally posted by Zen:
Keir! What do you need?! I can't code or help with anything of actual use, but LoTR gave us our modern fantasay; it deserves a Mod.

I can't wait until you try to figure out a strategic answer of how to get Frodo to 'sneak' into Mount Doom with 20,000 Patrolling units. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Come on, you only have to read the book to know how http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:

I am not planning on including the quest to destroy the ring in the initial mod<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

But strategically how are you going to accomplish it?

It has to be a vital strategy eventually (Yes not in the beginning)

Maybe a better Idea would be to not let you control any of the plotline heroes or notable figures but instead have them as events.

So your pretender is "Joe the Second-in-Command of Sauron" who actually handles the militaristic strategy. Creation, formation, behavior and day-to-day fighting of the "War of the Ring"

Give some props to the underappreciated blue collar slobs of the War. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit; I reread my above statement and thought I'd clarity, since it sounds like good idea for a mod even if it's not used here.

Have scripted events that have impacts on certain nations on certain turn paramaters (Don't be specific or people will play countdown exactly, which would lose some of the 'feel').

Easy Example: The "Fords of Isen Event" put up a nice block of text in the event (because it never gets old) and have the event fire between turn 20-30 (or whatever, don't announce it though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif during that event Player of Nation: Hobbit gets a Morale Boost (or Decrease) of +1 within their Dominion, Nation: Elves of Rivendale have an uprising of Lesser (or maybe "Mortal") Ringwraiths in a random Province on the River of Isen (So you don't know where it's coming from and make it like 4 or 6 provinces or something). Nation Sauron: Owns the ringwraiths (maybe you can script them but you can't equip them or something so you can add your strategy to the battle; but can't 'win' based on some uber hero stats) and Nation: Elves of Rivendale has some random commanders placed there along with the NPCs. Have the battle Last a certain number of turns (Set a limit) then have the "Flood". In that time Elves try to kill as many Ringwraiths as possible and the Ringwraiths try to kill as many elves as possible (and maybe some hobbits) and the ones that survive return to the hunt while the dead ones return to Sauron and he gets some sort of prize or detriment, the same with the Elves (Gems or a hero or whatever).

Now that was a complex event; but it had all of the elements of a "Pivotal" or "Nation Enhancing/Storytelling/Change of Multiple Nations" type of effects, which most of the plot line portions will have.

Imagine the type of event that is the Strider arriving in Gondor with the Dead and all it's complexities?

I know it wouldn't be easy, but it would be fun.

[ December 14, 2003, 12:23: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Well Shelobs Lair can be done as a seperate piece of map. A string of provinces not visually connected to the main map but with a #neighbor connection at certain points (just each end?). And of course Frodo, Sam and Gollum all have sneak.

I keep thinking... Im sure its been thought out but I dont understand why Ctis instead of Ermor. Changing a few of the Ermor units into Mordor units would seem easier. Of course Im not sure if some of the undead arent used elsewhere that undead pop up. Wouldnt want some nation using death gems and getting Orcs. I guess that would need testing

[ December 14, 2003, 14:08: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Kristoffer O]

Replace all undeads with snaga and other lowly orcs that do not cost gold, nor eat and use the ashen empire. This way orcs would pop up everywere in Mordor. Uruk, elite orcs and trolls could still cost money and be recruitable. Unholy priests could be replaced by orc commanders able to 'reanimate'/recruit orcs. The need for unburied corpses might seem a bit strange though. Cannibalism?

C'tis is not necessarily the best choice as it is the default theme that is altered with a mod. Thus you wouldn't have access to theme specific spells. On the other hand you can give a nation spells in the map file.

Strikes me that this applies to the ashen empire as well. Bothersome. The ashen dominion is not available i believe.

Hmm, it might be after all. You can still choose themes when you have modded a nation. Altering units and name and using ashen theme should do it as long a you don't choose to play with other themes.

[UNIVAC]

Originally posted by Zen:

Maybe a better Idea would be to not let you control any of the plotline heroes or notable figures but instead have them as events.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is another approach, yes.But this way you dont let the players to change the history.Main chars cant die, or events cant be avoided (what if gandalf dies in first turns? what about the moria event? events can be conditional?).Is not so easy, turning history in events, you limit in some way players interaction with it, and the capacity to change it.We have to think if we really want this to happen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Well yes; it doesn't.

Maybe that would be a different mod. I didn't know if the Mod was just fighting (ala Dom2 style) with the heroes and notable figures of each race/unit type etc so it doesn't matter if Gandalf gets hit by Wind Ride turn 10 to a Rohan province and killed (and never returns); because the Rohan demanded 50 Water Gems to fight a war because Gondor needed that one good plains/river province that had low provicinal defense that was by his capital.

Is this the intention or type?

Because I know even if I'm playing Hobbits; and the Elves of Rivendale start attacking, or gets too close to victory (Whatever the conditions are) I don't care about our relations and longstanding friendship and I'm going to hammer you into the floor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

No?

[UNIVAC]

Sure, but if the victory conditions are the destruction of the ring and the defeat of the evil factions (for the "good" team,of course),then it should not make much sense good factions fighting each other (although still possible to do it).
I still dont know if the events can be conditional depending on game factors or are time scheduled.Can anybody enlighten me? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[ December 14, 2003, 15:54: Message edited by: UNIVAC ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
C'tis is not necessarily the best choice as it is the default theme that is altered with a mod. Thus you wouldn't have access to theme specific spells. On the other hand you can give a nation spells in the map file.

Strikes me that this applies to the ashen empire as well. Bothersome. The ashen dominion is not available i believe.

Hmm, it might be after all. You can still choose themes when you have modded a nation. Altering units and name and using ashen theme should do it as long a you don't choose to play with other themes. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Themes can be selected in the map commands. But might not apply unless its AI. Someone could test that now.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Replace all undeads with snaga and other lowly orcs that do not cost gold, nor eat and use the ashen empire. This way orcs would pop up everywere in Mordor. Uruk, elite orcs and trolls could still cost money and be recruitable. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excellent! Thanks Kristoffer.

The only reason I was looking at Desert Tombs is I don't know Ermor but if they are the way to got then I'll go that way.

I was thinking Saurons dominion was going to be fairly destructive so Ermor is good, (though perhpas to full on) but how does this impact on a gold economy inside Mordor? My intention was to have most of Mordor a wasteland with little or no population and as Sauropns dominion spread the Midfdle Earth becomes cloaked in darkness and ruin - ie everyone starts dieing off excep[t orcs who keep being breed. This being the case it would seem to make sense to have Uruks and Trolls summonable rather than buyable.

By limiting intial placement of Saurons temples and providing alternative sources of dominion Sauorons holdings in Harad, Khand and amongst the Easterlings could avoid the worst impact of Saurons dominion.

I must sit down and have a play with the Ashen Emnpire.

Thanks again Kristoffer.

Cheers

Keir

Altering units and name and using ashen theme should do it as long a you don't choose to play with other themes. [/QB][/QUOTE]

[Nerfix]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
I was thinking Saurons dominion was going to be fairly destructive so Ermor is good, (though perhpas to full on) but how does this impact on a gold economy inside Mordor?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Soul Gate has a less destructive Dominion, and you could use money producing magic sites to reduce the economical impact.

[ December 14, 2003, 21:53: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Ok some progress has been made.

There are many tricky design decisions which will shape the game and thats what I'm working on at present. Here is what I'm coming up with.

Two sides each of three players.

Evil

1. Sauron - Castles/forts in Barad-dur, Minas Morgul, Morannon, Dol Gulder, Umbar (Corsairs), and Near Harad (Haradrim).

2. King of the Mountain Goblins - Castles/forts in Mt Gundabad, Moria, Sea of Rhun (Easterlings).

3. Saruman - Isengard

Good guys

1. Gondor/Rohan - Minis Tirith, Dol Amroth, Pelargir, Helms Deep, Edoras.

2. Elrond/Galadrial/Thranduil - Rivendel, Lothlorien, Mirkwood.

3. Dain - Lonely Mountain/Dale, Iron hills.

I have grouped peoples so that those that fought together in the War of the Ring may do so. thus Rohan is with Gondor so that they may fight alongside each other and Harad and Mordor likewise.

It would be possible to do a much more free for all scenario but having decided to leave the quest out for the moment I don't want to give up on too much more of the specific charachter of the books.

I'm working away on units and if anyone compiles a list of equipment I would love to see it.

I would like to have items such as orc mail, light orc mail, crude orc mail, full orc mail, dwarf mail, elvish longbows etc and I assumming this is do-able.

One task which is avaliable for any keen soul is starting work on a master list of charachters, and their items, worked out in the format of the mod files. This could then be worked on and the characters cut and pasted into the appropriate place.

I'm not going away on holiday and should get the opportunity to get quite a bit done in the next month. I will organise a friend to get a web page up for me to post files at for ease of communication/access.

Cheers

Keir

[ December 15, 2003, 03:10: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Keir Maxwell]

re the quest to destroy the Ring.

I'm sorry but I'm going to dodge questions on this for now. I have many, many ideas, but I fear that writing them done and discussing them would take up the time I should spend on working on step one - the military game. Once that works the issue of quest will be vastly more do-able.

However I will make one point - the key to it all is the will of Sauron (death gem income) and the different pressures on Saurons attention. Given no distractiosn he will toast the Hobbit and take the Ring but if distracted . . .

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

LI Idea for the mod.

Grade all LI as a size 2 troop.

If I understand things right this means that only 1 can fit in a square and smaller troops (size 1 HI/MI) can move through. If there are no size 2 tramplers (perhaps no size 2 troops other than LI) in the mod what problems would this create other than?

LI not being able to interpenetrate LI is the obvious answer but its still probably an advantage on not having a LI role.

I had a flash and thought "hey I can make all the Orc sprites a bit bigger and improve the detail." Then I realised this would mean redoing the rest of the sprites I used and the cloud of insanity passed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Cheers

Keir

[PvK]

It might make the LI easier to hit with missiles and spells than they "should" be. Otherwise, it seems like a reasonable idea.

PvK

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by PvK:
It might make the LI easier to hit with missiles and spells than they "should" be. Otherwise, it seems like a reasonable idea.

PvK <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was thinking it would make them both harder and easier to hit by spreading them out over a greater area and reducing the number in any given target square to 1. However I'm not really up on how the targeting works for missiles and spells so I may well be wrong.

I would prefer to reduce the vunerability of LI to missile fire than increase it - that would not be good.

Cheers

Keir

[Pocus]

some misc points:

*There is no possibilites as of now to script events. You can script starting positions, but thats it.

*Online encyclopedia on Middle earth:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/

*According to many sources, authoritative, and from ICE modules too, the sea of Nurn is somehow fertile, and populated either by Humans or Orcs. To see Mordor as a complete wasteland is a false view, IMHO.
"The name given to the southern regions of Mordor, more fertile than Gorgoroth in the north, in which the great inland sea of Núrnen lay. "

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Pocus:

*According to many sources, authoritative, and from ICE modules too, the sea of Nurn is somehow fertile, and populated either by Humans or Orcs. To see Mordor as a complete wasteland is a false view, IMHO.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No question - Nurn is farmed by the "Slaves of Mordor" - can't remember the source. The way I intend to make that possible is through alternate sources of dominion which prevent the spread of the worst of Saurons dominion beyond the core area of Mordor. This is also why I don't want to have a full Ermor dominion for Sauron as the effect on population would be far too drastic for areas like Nurn and Khand.

The ICE modules are an interesting source of information and I have access to the bulk - if not all of them. They have, by necessity, made up a great deal. Some of which I intend to use as it will add flavour while other parts I will ommit as they don't fit the time of the War of the Ring so well - most ICE modules are based earlier. For example the terms for Gondorian military inspired by earlier Numenorean and Arnorian practice (Roquen etc) are all very cute but it is better to use the exact terms from the book even if they are less fanciful. On the other hand some of their names for Easterling tribes will be great to use as there is no other source of information.

I am somewhat cautious of using secondary material as some of it is very questionable. The key is the three books, with appendices, and using the same langauge as used there and working to create something of the feel.

Cheers

Keir

[ December 20, 2003, 09:13: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Gandalf Parker]

There are 17 nations which can be altered (I wonder if a mod file hits a limit the way the other files did)

Im getting an impression that Ermor has become the Mordor nation. If more units but not quite "same army" units are needed then possibly another nation such as Ctis can be modified and declared ally to Ermor/Mordor. The wont share an army but they wont attack each other. So possibly that area you were discussing could be setup with "evil men" or whatever.

Ive seen a list here of the various "sides" in this conflict. But what I havent seen and rather expected was a breakdown of what dominions nations would fit those sides.

I know that a nation can be totally rewritten but it might help avoid some rewrite if we got kindof close with a nation whose units and attitudes and style of play seemed to fit.

Saruman would be squeezed into Arcos? Pythium for Easterlings? Marignon for Gondor?
Tien chin is Rohan? Vanheim are elves? Caelum might work for elves since they make pretty good use of bow and spells in combat,or easterlings since the elephants wuold play right. Matchaka for goblins? Abysia for dwarves or Ulm?

Also of interest is that apparently you can change the independents that show up and they will still show up randomly as the race you chose. The trolls are probably fine as they are, and the hoburgs. Change something that shows up only occassionally into Ents? Woodsmen would show up in forests but they dont attack right. Hvy Infantry show up too much, same with Barbs. Raptors maybe would work. They do charge to attack (in a way) and show up rarely in random placement. The big treelords (maybe toned down abit) with lesser entlings as the troop units?

Anyway, just tossing stuff in the pot and stirring. Carry on.

[Pocus]

well said Keir. For what its worth I rely on ICE when infos are not available from Master Tolkien http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , thinking naively that they try their best to not stray from the writing if possible.

Do you have the modules dealing with Khand, Far Harad, etc. Thats mostly data constructed by ICE, but still you can grab from them names & places.

[jowe01]

Any news on the progress over christmas? I am very much looking forward to this one.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by jowe01:
Any news on the progress over christmas? I am very much looking forward to this one. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sorry to say but I'm suffering from patch watching. When I heard the patch was going to out before christmas I put away my text files. Since then its always been a case of the patch is coming soon (not meaning to complain as I understand there are valid reasons for these things) and so I've kept hanging off for the patch with the mod tools - I'm not that up on the whole scripting/programming side anymore so the thought of what might be an easier interface is very appealing. Hopefully the patch with mod tools will be any day now but sadly much of my holiday time is gone. Still seeing the Return of the King was a big boost and I'm looking forward to making some progress.

I did spend the down time usefully though as I played alot of dom2 and have a better feel for the game now.

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

If anyone has a preference on the map I use please speak now. The links to the maps I'm choosing between can be found early in this thread.

The choice is between a very tidy, somewhat cutsy, map in light colors and a somewhat roughy scanned map in the old map style with light browns. I lean towards the older looking map but worry it won't look so good once the interface is over the top while the more colorful map might suit the dom interface better. Looking at the map of Britain gives you an idea of what I'm talking about.

If you have an opinion speak now or forever hold your peace.

Cheers

Keir

While I dearly love the old map (I actually have one of the fold out ones from an old hardback copy)...

I hate Brittan's map look. I can never seem to tell what type of enviroment a province is so I know what to expect.

I vote tidy and neat for playability while my soul says "Remember Helm's Deep!"

[Keir Maxwell]

Goto:
http://www.taylorcustom.com/localinks/mearth/mearthmap.html

The map with no names:
http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~cbernd/pdf/middleEarth03_ltr_noNames.pdf

Clean, easy to work with, and looking the most likely. I'll probably tone the black of the mountains down.

cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Things are going well with adapting Ashen Empire Ermor to Mordor. The amount of differnet creatures that turn up due to your dominion makes getting a varied bunch of orcs easy.

One issue that has come up is that what with Ashen Empire getting no castles with supply its pretty essential that Orcs are rated as not needing to eat. This is a bit sad given the wonderful orc eating scene in the second movie - "I'm hungry, I haven't had nothing to eat for but maggoty bread for three stinking days". Still its not hard to justify as orcs eating habits are a large part of Saurons destructive dominion and if they can always eat each other *shrugs* its ok.

Cheers

Keir.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
One issue that has come up is that what with Ashen Empire getting no castles with supply its pretty essential that Orcs are rated as not needing to eat. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Chuckwagon" unit. 40 gold, 1 strat move, produces 25 supplies. Similar to Vanheim's Boar, but way cheaper because an Orc can live on maggoty bread for days. The icon could come from Civilization / MoM pioneers. Why not give something like that to all nations, actually?

Possibly, a "Corpse-eater" ability could be added... a corpse could supply maybe 2 such units per turn. And when corpses run out, they turn to the living...

-Cherry

I was under the impression that most of the orcs just ate the dead (and living).

This wouldn't cause much of a supply issue. Maybe you can make them lose a certain amount of units if they are over supply as they cannabalize themselves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Keir Maxwell]

Like the suppply wagon idea and this could be very important for the War of The Ring.

Now that I'm underway I realise the logical way to do it is create a seperate mod for each nation and worry about how it all fits together for the War of the Ring Scenario once all the nations are up and running. So that means first up I'll be effectively creating a somewhat timeless/abstract middle earth beatem up. Tolkien has done such a good job of the map and mordors dominion being what it is it should play reasonably sensibly.

The big question I'm wondering right now is wether there is any way to point an edited unit at the .tga of an existing unit in the game? For example convert "Knight of the Unholy Sepulchre" into a Troll and use the existing troll .tga without going having to capturing on screen the image and making a .tga. Individually its not a big job creating new .tga files but when you have to do it for alot of units it would be nice to find a short cut.

Cheers

Keir

Can you just point the nation from one unit to another unit without adjusting anything?

If not that would be icky.

Also my advise would be not to start with Mordor, as they are probably the most work and start with someone smaller or more straightforward so your Modding skills will be up to par when you get to the big enchilada. Like maybe Gondor, or Rohan.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Zen:
Can you just point the nation from one unit to another unit without adjusting anything?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Something like a #swap command? So that all references to unit 123 in the game would use unit 321 instead? That might be nice.

by the way, does anyone have the new count after the patch? We went from 1010 units to...

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Zen:

Also my advise would be not to start with Mordor, as they are probably the most work <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Mordor mod is close to being ready for me to test - other than the graphics - so its not proving to bad. While the graphics will take a bit its the area I have more expertise in and easy access to help for what I can't do. In the mean time the orcs will look like skeletons.

The hard part about the Mordor mod is mainly conceptual and Kristoffers excellent advice to use Ashen Empire Ermor as the base plus all the time I have spent thinking on it has seems to have cracked this part.

Cheers

Keir

[Kristoffer O]

There is one problem with my idea.

You can summon orcs in battles (Raise skeletons).

Changing the theme to shadow gate might be a solution, but there are fewer spirits than corporeal undead I believe).

Banning the use of the spell another idea (that is hard to implement as the AI would like it). Patch 2.07 will enable spell modding and allows you to disable spells.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
by the way, does anyone have the new count after the patch? We went from 1010 units to... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The dev-Version count is 1085.

I believe the 2.06 count is 1040 or so.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
There is one problem with my idea.

You can summon orcs in battles (Raise skeletons).

Changing the theme to shadow gate might be a solution, but there are fewer spirits than corporeal undead I believe). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...or Carrion Woods. Carrion Beasts are not available to anyone else.

Or you could use units with "Call Allies" ability, and change them to Orc Chieftains of various Orc clans. "Crossbreeding" could be the national Mordor spell (giving a variety of orky, gobliny things), and all research could be disabled...

[ January 14, 2004, 22:13: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
There is one problem with my idea.

You can summon orcs in battles (Raise skeletons).
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not so worried about that. My problem looks somewhat bigger - you can't mod themes can you?

Here am I finishing the .dm file for a Mordor mod of Ashen Empire Ermor when it suddenly occurred to me that I have read you can't mod themes and there is nothing I can see to point the mod at the theme rather than the main nation.

Err, aah . . .help?

While you are at Kristoffer I can't see anything on leadership.

cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

*bump*

Illwinter could you please clarify the modding themes issue.

Vheers

Keir

[Kristoffer O]

We missed leadership. Next patch.

Regarding themes: change the units in a theme is fully possible. In the map file you can force the player to play with the theme IIRC.

A more direct way of adding and changing themes will probably come in the nex patch.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

Regarding themes: change the units in a theme is fully possible. In the map file you can force the player to play with the theme IIRC.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excellent. Most of what I have done is mod units which the Ashen Empire generates so this should still work. Phew - thanks.

With the #clear command not working I'll wo't be finishing before the next patch. There is still heaps I can do so its not acutally a big deal. Its been very satisfying just getting a mod to work and then getting to play with it. From humble beginings . . . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

cheers

Keir

[Merry Jolkar]

Gandalf recommended that I take a look at this thread because I am considering setting up a humans vs. AI game in Middle Earth, with the A.I. playing Sauron's armies. Looking through the thread, this is a player vs. player mod. Has anyone tried setting it up as a players vs. A.I.?

Thanks, Merry

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Merry Jolkar:
Gandalf recommended that I take a look at this thread because I am considering setting up a humans vs. AI game in Middle Earth, with the A.I. playing Sauron's armies. Looking through the thread, this is a player vs. player mod. Has anyone tried setting it up as a players vs. A.I.?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Once the mod is created it will change the nations to match those in Middle Earth. Whether each nation is played by humans or by computer is up to the person making a new game with the mod loaded I believe.

[ April 22, 2004, 03:05: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
We missed leadership. Next patch.

Regarding themes: change the units in a theme is fully possible. In the map file you can force the player to play with the theme IIRC.

A more direct way of adding and changing themes will probably come in the nex patch. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is this still going to be added? When? In "the next patch"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It isn't that important, but would be nice.

[Kristoffer O]

Themes was not as easy to change as I thought. I'm not sure what JK's opinion is, but he said it would be a bit of a bother.

[Cheezeninja]

Since im fairly new to the forum and this is the first time i've seen this thread i just want to say it looks awesome and i cant wait for the mod.

It seems that Pangea carrion woods would be awesome for Isenguard.. as Saruman did the majority of creative crossbreeding with orcs. Although im not quite sure how Blood Slaves and Saruman go together.

I think an awesome way to run the whole ring/frodo thing would be to somehow make it so that You can only have Sauron as a corporeal pretender when you have the one ring in your possession. You could place Sauron with some other orcs already in a province with superior Good force on the first turn, causing the death of Sauron and the aquirement of the ring by the forces of good. Perhaps the only commander present could be a certain hobbit... I have absolutely no idea what goes into modding, but it would work out well if the good side started with the ring, Sauron was a monster SC, and you couldnt call him back unless you re-obtained the ring. Give the Nezgul Assassination so they can go after hobbits with rings, and make them from one of the units that have a specific number you can summon, and re-summon when they die.
Wait! Ok, hard wire the one ring to a hobbit, make it horror mark him, and change the horrors into Nezgul... and then if Sauron has an inkling where the hobbit is he can cast Send Nezgul. I suppose you could make the ring a Unique Artifact that does some really good AND bad stuff. There has to be some reason for the good player to take it out of their laboratory, maybe it could have a permanent gem income, be cursed, and cause horror marking. Then when the Nezgul kill the hobbit it can be reforged with a large number of death gems... representing the effort of getting it back to mordor and giving the forces of good a chance to try and re-forge (find) it first. What happens if 2 teams attempt to forge a unique artifact on the same turn?


I also think Mordor should start out with the ability to scry somehow to represent the eye of sauron.

Again i have no idea if its possible to mod any of these things into the game, im just throwing out ideas. This email ended up changing from a statement of anticipation to a long rambling post. I hope some of my ideas helped at least a little.

[ April 23, 2004, 17:05: Message edited by: Cheezeninja ]

[JaydedOne]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Themes was not as easy to change as I thought. I'm not sure what JK's opinion is, but he said it would be a bit of a bother. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here's something I don't get -- aside from obviously coded effects specific to themes (like destructive domain), don't you pretty much replicating the creation of a theme every time you mod a nation? In theory, I could, given enough typing and use of Photoshop, remake Last of the Tuatha for Man as a mod if IW decided tomorrow it shouldn't exist anymore. I couldn't force anyone to take certain scales (although it could be recommended in the design doc) and I couldn't set up a design point price (which, admittedly, might be a shortcoming if trying to create better-than-average themes which required balancing) but I could alter heroes, change out selectable units, offer different starting sites, etc.

Is there some other way to end-around theme creation by basically setting up mod commands to force certain scales or design point costs (perhaps just increasing cost for all Pretenders for that mod nation), effectively jury-rigging themes even if the mod name itself doesn't appear as a "selectable" theme?

What other issues am I forgetting? Are any of these ideas workable?

[Gateway103]

Perhaps one can make Sauron a nation-specific immobile pretedner with only 1 misc slot, and give this nation (probably ermor) a special transformation spell castable only by Sauron with The Ring.

Say perhaps Sauron is the only one with 8 Death magic (restrict death gem to Mordor only?), and he'll need the ring to give him +2 Death to be able to cast the transformation spell.

Problem is that you have to make sure he can't empower himself or boost his death level via items, which entail item and site editing. Or if possible, edit the cost to empower him in death to 999 gems or greater, which effectively negates the possibility (don't think this is possible right now).

Although that doesn't limit empowering of other mages... And this would only work for human player... I doubt the AI will give the Ring to Sauron if it can get it...

Just some not very useful thoughts... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

-Gateway103

[gladestrider]

Interesting discussion. A big thanks to whoever bumped it up.

For what it's worth, I did this:

(1) Took the ME map that was announced on this forum Last month.

(2) Modded the map to support two players: Gondor/Iron Hills/Rivendell and Mordor/Isengard/North Mirkwood. I had originally planned to do a 6-player mod with those 6 nations, but I play mostly SP so I haven't been motivated.

I have a handful (not all) of the characters assigned to various starting points. Shelob is in her spot, as is Treebeard. I also put in Smaug and the Balrog, just for fun. Hmm, The Watcher in the Lake (at the back door to Moria) is there, plus the Necromancers in Dol-Guldor (I think that's what it's called).

(3) I modded the nations of Man and Ermor to Gondor and Mordor (respectively), rebuilt their recruitable unit lists to include elves, dwarves, and men for Gondor and Uruk-hai, Orcs (and wargs), and Trolls for Mordor. All of the units are existing units that have been modded, as opposed to units with new graphics (I didn't want to bother with artwork yet.)

I intended to make Sauron the creature (Moloch? I can't remember) that looks like a big flame and mod it to make it immobile, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

The Ringwraiths are all granted via the map file--they are not recruitable, but they are immortal. Frankly, they're turning out to be dirty bastards, so some tuning is in order there.

Note: Nothing is more refreshing that capturing a province with an army of hobbits.

The units need a lot of tuning, but it's moving along. If anyone ever does any artwork (even if it's just banners), I would appreciate it if they'd share.

Please keep the ideas flowing!

PS. JK or K, I would really like a way to override the #poptype recruiting lists for a province. In other words, I'd like to clear out the #poptype list and build my own, so I can put Ents in Fanghorn, Elves in Lorien, Rohirrim in Rohan, etc., like this:

#clearpoptype
#addreccom "Goblin Warg Chief"
#addrecunit "Goblin Warg Rider"
#addrecunit "Goblin Arrow Fodder"

As it is, the "fortress recruit list" for each nation is huge and I have to exercise discipline to not recruit them where they shouldn't be (Captains of Gondor in the Iron Hills, Elves in Gondor, Uruk-Hai in Mirkwood, etc.)

gs

[HotNifeThruButr]

Nice, ambitious mod

Anyways, the head is Baphomet

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Miguel Duran:
Here's something I don't get -- aside from obviously coded effects specific to themes (like destructive domain), don't you pretty much replicating the creation of a theme every time you mod a nation? In theory, I could, given enough typing and use of Photoshop, remake Last of the Tuatha for Man as a mod if IW decided tomorrow it shouldn't exist anymore. I couldn't force anyone to take certain scales (although it could be recommended in the design doc) and I couldn't set up a design point price (which, admittedly, might be a shortcoming if trying to create better-than-average themes which required balancing) but I could alter heroes, change out selectable units, offer different starting sites, etc.

Is there some other way to end-around theme creation by basically setting up mod commands to force certain scales or design point costs (perhaps just increasing cost for all Pretenders for that mod nation), effectively jury-rigging themes even if the mod name itself doesn't appear as a "selectable" theme?

What other issues am I forgetting? Are any of these ideas workable? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are correct. A mod is much like replicating a theme. What people would like (theme modding) is the possibility to make a theme that is not replacing the default nation. Currently everyone knows that you are playing a mod. This is of course only a problem in MP games.

If you are making a scenario you can fix scales of a particular nation in the map file.

[Endoperez]

How much does it cost to empower someone from Death-8 to, say, Death-10? Or D-11? If it is insane amounts of death gems, it is almost impossible.

Random thoughts:
What effects would The Ring give to its wielder? Horror Marked is not very good, although that could simulate the attacks of RingWraiths quite well... They wouldn't be the same ones, though.
Those weapons should be cause disease, BTW, not decay. And Rivendell should have some healers.

One big problem is the fact that Ring can be destroyed - after that it could be forged again, and that is not what we want. One solution would be to make it need awesome amounts of Death magic, 10 or 12 or something. Then someone, maybe one of the Elves, would have that much magic and a forge-bonus of 100. No-one in Ermor would be able to forge it without empowering a lot.

If all Death spells were unaccesiible by research, good nations could find Death sites and would convert "the evil power" to do good under their will. Mordor would start with the spells they would be able to use... Only Sauron should be able to cast their better spells.

Some ideas my tired mind came up with. Ignore them if you don't like them, but I would like to get some comments.

[Taqwus]

Empowerment cost is 50 gems/slaves to get level 1, 30 + (15 * (current_level-1)) thereafter.
Hence, to empower from level 8 to level 9 costs 30 + 7*15 = 135, then it's 150 for level 10, and 165 for level 11.

With Death magic, you should note that boosters exist for every slot except feet.
The most powerful death weapon is the 40-gem 1-hd unique Sceptre for +3 death; unique and non-unique 2-hd staves provide 1. A Skull Cap boosts by 1 for 20 gems. A Robe of the Archmage boosts all paths incl death by 1 for something like 80 blood slaves and a horror mark. Misc items that boost include rings of sorcery and wizardry (+1 each), and the Big Black Book of Secrets (Death and Blood Magic for Dummies, +1 each).

[Gateway103]

Yeah, but Sauron is an eye, I don't see him haveing any slot except maybe a misc. slot to hold the Ring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[edit: I was mistaken about the empowerment cost]

-Gateway103

[ April 25, 2004, 19:30: Message edited by: Gateway103 ]

[limbo]

hello there!
this is something i`ve been waiting for. a Lotr-mod.
here is a link to civ3 forum, a thread i have been following for nearly a year (or 2). it`s a lotr mod for civ3. i believe that you will find lots of usefull information of units and nations from there. believe me when i tell you, that those guys have done lots of research.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96409

i hope the link works.
btw, can you script item so that it would be lost in the province where carrier were slain? and then some unfortunate gobyer would find it again? like the time that isildur (was it isildur?) fell i the river, and years after smeagul found the ring.

-limbo

edit: i took a second look to dates.. is this mod still active?

[Truper]

The mod never was active, to my knowledge. Keir disappeared from these Boards many months ago, and without completing the mod.

There is always a chance that a magic item will be found by a commander on the victorious side after a battle, but you cannot ensure that it will be found.

Yes, it was Isildur that lost the Ring.

[PvK]

Gateway103 said:
Yeah, but Sauron is an eye, I don't see him haveing any slot except maybe a misc. slot to hold the Ring &lt;img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /&gt;
...



It's not that Sauron _is_ an eye, it's just very powerful magically and the spell effect was mostly what was shown in the film, and is his symbol. See for example:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/sauron.gif

Also if you want to see it in the recent film series, watch the very first battle scene in the first film. The giant guy wiping out dozens of good guys with every sweep of his sword would be Sauron... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

PvK

[deccan]

But it in the Third Age, I think Sauron is more or less physically "diffused", sort of like an ethereal, malignant presence than a physical combat monster.

[Vicious Love]

Gollum mentions Sauron torturing him with nine fingers. Think there might be mention of Sauron having corporeal form around that time elsewhere. Shall sniff about.

[Vicious Love]

Ding! Gandalf sez: "Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and secretly explored his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again."

Further, Tolkien sez: "It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, that might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book."

Thanks to some pedantic purist at minastirith.com for digging this latter quote up in my stead.