Blood?

[Keir Maxwell]

Blood magic was the big boogyman in dom1 with stories abounding of armies of dozens of Ice Devils. I never encountered this (MP games I was in ended too early) but I found plenty of scope for doing nasty things with blood even if it was just the contracts, which you don't have to do seperate research for, and multiple armies with half a dozen Ice Devils were not hard to come by. I'm glad that things have been toned down but always believed that rebalencing required improving early blood magic and that has not happened - the reverse with the weakening of contracts. Both high level (summons) and low level (contracts) blood magic has been weakened. Blood was only overpowered late game in dom1 and you had to survive to get there.

I really enjoyed blood magic in dom1 but find it very unappealing in dom2. Sure you can get some good results but the cost? I don't even think about it seriously with Pangaea as the price would be far too high to be worth channeling the resources from army building and conquest. When I have gone into blood with Abysia its been a case of ho hum these contracts sure are expensive and what exactly is the really useful summoning that I'm devoting so much time and effort to? No Pazzazu, only one Illearth, Ice Devils were never optimal for Abysia and are less so now (but still the most appealing), Fallen Angels and Arch Angels are seriously yawn material considering how little new they offer and how much work goes into geting them. Hmm lets see I could invest vast amounts of resource to get mages who can do what my existing ones can. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Sure you can turn them into supercombatents but that has its own costs in terms of gems and forging time and they are only ok at it. Doesn't compare to being able to build Niefel Giants from turn1 and have my mages seperate. I can't honestly say to you that its worth bothering with blood as Abysia until late in the game (which may never come) as from my tests of it probably isn't worth the pain in the period of the game when most things are decided.

Low level blood battle magic is fairly weak by nature - blood spells tend to cost blood slaves which can't be provided early in a reliable manner (cost of ferrying slaves, hunting for slaves . . .). Low level blood summons are unappealing due to the mage time required to summon them. Contracts are not what the used to be.

I have read reports of single player blood experiments which sounded good but I'm not convinced these have much bearing on MP as MP demands one build an empire not sit on onces butt collecting blood slaves early. Sure you can get some nasty results latter in the game but thats true of all paths of magic and others provide goodies early and don't require the huge expenditure in time and effort to get the blood slaves.

Bloods big thing remains how many blood slaves you can get and its true that you can get alot. It costs you a heap of gold and time in which you could be pummeling your opponent into submission or they could be pummelling you. Sure its the big bonus of blood that you can put in lots of effort and get a heap of slaves but its not enough by itself. In the end slow strategies need something special or they just can't compete with the value of doing the obvious.

Maybe I'm missing something but for me the fun has been taken out of blood and I have found blood largely a waste of time in dom2 - better returns elsewhere. As someone who really enjoyed blood in Dom1 its sad to see how low it seems to have fallen.

I realise that many people will have done impressive things with blood magic playing single player in Dom2 - single player gives you time to explore viscous late game approaches. If thats all blood has to offer then thats sad for me.

Please Illwinter reconsider allowing more low level blood spells where you get more then one devil per casting. This would bring blood into things early for Mictlan and not long after for an Abysian player so inclined - as it should be. I also think the devil summoning contract need to be made cheaper and possibly a starting ritual for Abysia. I miss my devils - I really miss my devils. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

cheers

Keir

[ December 27, 2003, 06:38: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Teraswaerto]

Lifelong protections for Slayers is the main attraction in getting some early blood slaves with Abysia. Other than that it doesn't seem to be worth it.

[apoger]

Hordes from Hell.

Blood magic is worth it just for this spell.

[Jasper]

Blood magic does take a while to get going, but seems well worth it to me. As Alex points out Hordes from Hell seems quite good, and the bigger summons still make very effective Super Combatants.

The biggest blow IMHO against blood magic is the brutal power of paralyze. I haven't played around with it much, but judging from other's reports it makes spending a bunch on a single unit a mistake, unless you're sure you won't face Astral magic in battle.

Pythium w/ blood magic on the Pretender seems like it would be quite powerfull. Pythium is effective to begin with, and add to that Super Combatants backed by Paralyze to counter opposing Super Combatants, and Magic Duel dominance to counter opposing Paralyzers.

[Gandalf Parker]

Hellbind Heart. One of my Favorites. A double-shammy. Remove a major commander from them causing all of that commanders troops to flee the field. AND add a commander to you, with all his equipment/gems. Adding a seasoned Caelum commander to Jotunheim really touches up an army. Or Ulm snagging an Arcos mage.

Safer if some with something like "Wind Ride".
Extra bonuses if it can be done by an assassin.
Also can be used for trading units between allies.

[ December 27, 2003, 14:53: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Truper]

Sigh. Ice Devils sure aren't what they used to be. Ironic MP story:

I was playing Vanheim, and the big nasty power in the game was Pythium. I thought Blood might be my trump card to even things up a bit. One of the maps has a 4 province sea - I was on one side and Pythium was on the other. I thought taking the sea would not only give me some much-needed income, but provide considerable flexibility in where I could strike. I remebered from Dom1 that one ID could deal with any number of Tritons properly equipped. So I prepared his kit: Wraith Sword, Chainmail of Displacement, and Amulet of Antimagic. I contracted with another player to get a snake ring (2nd sigh - sometime in the 40s and I still had no one with a random in nature). So I finally got all that and the 55 slaves together, summoned the bad boy... and he had no hand slots! No Wraith Sword for him. He managed to take the 1st sea province I sent him into anyway, but lost an eye doing so - never would have happened could he but wield the sword. He took one other sea province, but died trying to take the 3rd - though in between, he did help me kill a Queen of Elemental Air, so I did get some good use out of him.

Next, I thought I'd try a Succubus. She was loads of fun to use, but never seduced a single commander, preferring always to simply kill them. I'm guessing from Kristoffer's comments in another thread, my experience in this game, and a little single player experience, that Succubi will refuse to seduce mages, and that their taste inclines to "leaders". Ah well. At least she made a good recipient for the Wraith Sword I'd forged.

A bit later, I decided to go for another Ice Devil. This one came with the usual 3 in Water, but also 2 in Astral - not much use against Pythium. I never even dared to send him out in what little remained of the game - he became a very expensive researcher.

Ice Devils sure aren't what they used to be...

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
Hordes from Hell.

Blood magic is worth it just for this spell. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've heard you say this a couple of times but I really have to ask why? Lvl 5 spell for a bunch of crappy imps (and imps are crap) and one devil for 30 blood slaves and a level 4 blood mage - what is the big deal? Sure you can cast them all over the place but I don't think it is worth the mnassive expenditure that is establishing a blood economy for Hordes of Hell - they are useful but not that good.

I have spent half a game being harassed by people using rituals to summon monsters in my "unprotected zones" and I have never found it that hard to deal with - decent level of defenses plus a few extra troops in strategically placed provinces you don't much want to lose and castles + a few patrallers in provinces that really matter. It has never seemed to me that I'm expending anything like the effort in fighting off harrassing rituals that the casters is spending casting them. Sure you can probably use the rituals more effectively than they have been used against me and I have had success using them but only significant success vs an unwary opponent.

What am I missing about Hordes from Hell?

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Truper:
Sigh. Ice Devils sure aren't what they used to be. Ironic MP story:

summoned the bad boy... and he had no hand slots! No Wraith Sword for him.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Noooooooooooooooooooooo!

[warning rant mode ahead]

It would seem that the Dom1 players who called for the nerfing of blood have got their wish. Great.

Blood used to be fun, real fun - now its supposed to be worth it for Hordes from Hell???? Give me a break.

Sure you can do things with high level blood but in order to do so you have to channel resources that could be spent on expansion (which has a very high rate of return) and I question that its worth it. But most of all where is the fun in this? Take something that was really interesting and enjoyable and turn it into custard - yay!

Ice Devils have no hand slots? That is is so sad. No Devils to play with, no Ice Devils to look forward to, no Pazzazu to aim at just Horde from Hell and some silly fire magic devils who you don't really need. Aaaaaaaarrgggh!

*Gurggle Gurggle* - the sound of blood going down the drain.

Keir

[Graeme Dice]

Ice Devils have no hand slots? That is is so sad.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have you actually ever looked at the seven different Ice Devils that you can receive? Nycator has two ice fists, and thus can't wield any other weapons. One of them summons free frost fiends, another is an unholy 3 priest. One has weaker physical stats but also has astral 2, which is very useful against anyone that isn't an astral king. The fifth has much better leadership abilities than the others. Number six has a hell sword and stinger built in, and is therefore immune to heat from the get go. The seventh is a fairly standard big attacker with a paralyzing stinger and some other weapon built in.

[apoger]

>Sure you can do things with high level blood but in order to do so you have to channel resources that could be spent on expansion

And how is that different from all the rest of the magic schools?


>Ice Devils have no hand slots?

Only one is missing it's hands. The others are fine.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
>Sure you can do things with high level blood but in order to do so you have to channel resources that could be spent on expansion

And how is that different from all the rest of the magic schools?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Other schools get useful combat spells costing no gems which can be used early in the game.

Research used for other schools of magic is shared to a significant degree so that conjuration doesn't just get you fire spells.

The quantity of investment in getting other schools of magic up and running us much, much lower than blood.

The hit done to Pangaea to research eagle eyes to enhance their starting spell panic is minor but still distracts from expansion. Its probably worth it. Abysia starts with the spell Flare which used by an Anathament Dragon will give you a handy boost early - though you have to invest in the more expensive Dragon to do so. These are the sorts of querstions you face with other scholls of magic. Blood you don't even look at early due to the high cost of setup. In return it needs to be more powerful down the track not just Hordes from Hell powerful.

Maybe its the way I play the game and have seen other PBEM games played - fast. In a brutal world of pretenders striving for Asdcension I find things develop quick and late game doesn't necesserily come. The vast majority of PBEM games I have been in have ended in the mid game. As I'm not sure I'll have significant blood capability by that time I question the value of blood.

cheers

Keir

[apoger]

You need to keep in mind which nations are built to use blood magic.

Abysia
-the Demonbred can use Blood Boil at reaserch-1 for a no-slave armor negating attack.
-Demonbred have exatly the right skill to cast Bind Devil.
-the Warlocks are tailor made to cast Hordes form hell.
-Hunting is made easy by the cheap Warlock Apprentice.


Mictlan
-Has blood-1 mages for easy/cheap hunting
-Starts with bind fiend and bind spine devil pre-researched
-Can upgrade national mages for easy access to many big blood summons


Pangaea
-Cross Breeding is cool.
-Awaken Dark Vines now very cheap for what you get.


Jotunheim
-Skratti have the correct skills to cast Bind Frost Fiend, and can be empowered to cast Bind Ice Devil.
-Illwinter is custom made for some serious Jotuheim domination.


Marignon [Diabolical Faith]
-Starts with Bind Harlequin, which isn't the greatest, but it's not bad.
-Has cheap blood-1 mage for easy/cheap hunting
-Like Abysia can use Blood Boil for battle.
-Like Abysia has the right skills for Bind Devil.


Vanheim
-Is a very minor blood nation... but I guess the Van could empower to be able to cast Bind Storm Demon.


Everyone else
-Isn't a blood nation and should need to spend some effort to garner power from a list that isn't natural for them.


You also must keep in mind that blood hunting is an economy that the player can control and cultivate. This is very powerful compared to gold and gems/sites which are limited in nature.


I'm actually happy to see blood magic reduced to the level it's at. In fact I still think it's a bit too potent due to the players ability to control the investment into the blood economy. Well that's my opinion, for what it's worth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ice Devils have no hand slots? That is is so sad.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have you actually ever looked at the seven different Ice Devils that you can receive? . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Obviously not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif thanks for posting the details.

The reason I haven't summoned lots of big blood badies in Dom2 is simple - the game has reached the decided phase in my test games before I can get the big bad blood summons. I've played blood with Mictlan, Abysia, Jotun and Pangaea under Dom2. Only Abysia got to use its blood meaningfully before the game was resolved. When I have played Abysia, Jotun and Pangaea and ignored the blood I have done better than when I used it - much better. I used blood alot in dom1 and I miss it. Sure it will still be fun for people who play a slower paced game but for me its looking bleak.

What I would like to see is the ability to build demonic armies. Dom2 IMO is not about super combatents its about armies - much more than dom1. For blood to have its "rightful" place in such an order you need to be able to build up serious numbers of lesser devils for your demonic hordes. I have had a strong urge to use Spine Devils since I first looked at blood magic and its an itch I would love to able to scratch.

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:

Abysia
-the Demonbred can use Blood Boil at reaserch-1 for a no-slave armor negating attack.
-Demonbred have exatly the right skill to cast Bind Devil.
-the Warlocks are tailor made to cast Hordes form hell.
-Hunting is made easy by the cheap Warlock Apprentice.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And I get better results by ignoring blood with Abysia. I'll still use it if the game goes on along time but otherwise not.

The blood boil point is good but bind devil is not a good spell.


Mictlan
-Has blood-1 mages for easy/cheap hunting
-Starts with bind fiend and bind spine devil pre-researched
-Can upgrade national mages for easy access to many big blood summons<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And is the worst race in the game.


Pangaea
-Cross Breeding is cool.
-Awaken Dark Vines now very cheap for what you get. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pandemonaics cost 320gps and they are your blood mage - makes searching for blood slaves a killer in an incredibly gold greedy race. Again I pass on blood when using Pangaea.


Jotunheim
-Skratti have the correct skills to cast Bind Frost Fiend, and can be empowered to cast Bind Ice Devil.
-Illwinter is custom made for some serious Jotuheim domination.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Skratti are expensive so that your blood searching is very pricey. I still use blood with Jotun but thats because I like it so much thematically - I'm not sure its worth the trouble in most games.


Marignon [Diabolical Faith]
-Starts with Bind Harlequin, which isn't the greatest, but it's not bad.
-Has cheap blood-1 mage for easy/cheap hunting
-Like Abysia can use Blood Boil for battle.
-Like Abysia has the right skills for Bind Devil.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't tried this race and till now have taken your word on it - you described it as weak didn't you?

Vanheim
-Is a very minor blood nation... but I guess the Van could empower to be able to cast Bind Storm Demon.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Alex you are doing your utmost not to get the point it would seem - Vanheim has to pay for a blood pick on its Van Jarls and in general gets nothing for it. Blood is the biggest problem with the Van.


I'm actually happy to see blood magic reduced to the level it's at. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As the greatest critic of blood I'm not suprised you are happy you got what you campaigned long and hard for. Your response to the dom2 demo was that blood was still overpowered!? For me its a case of goodbye to alot of cool features.

Sort of ironic that they finally made blood searching not a micro-management nightmare and instead of this making blood all the joy I had hoped for I find myself wondering wether its worth bothering at all now.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

>And I get better results by ignoring blood with Abysia. I'll still use it if the game goes on along time but otherwise not.

I find Abysia weak without blood magic. It's the only thing that keeps Abysia competitive, in my opinion.


>The blood boil point is good but bind devil is not a good spell.

I've had a lot of success with it, don't dismiss it so fast. Although much of the reason why it works is combined with the efficiency of the Demonbred mage. If I get up the gumption I'll write up a description of the technique I use.


>Mictlan
>>And is the worst race in the game.

Due to it's lack of good troops, not due to impotent blood magic.



>Pangaea
>Pandemonaics cost 320gps and they are your blood mage - makes searching for blood slaves a killer in an incredibly gold greedy race. Again I pass on blood when using Pangaea.

When I use Pangaea I blood hunt with scouts on the side and only make Pandemoniacs as needed for summoning.


>Jotunheim
>>Skratti are expensive so that your blood searching is very pricey. I still use blood with Jotun but thats because I like it so much thematically - I'm not sure its worth the trouble in most games.

Again I hunt with scouts and use Skratti as summoners.


>Marignon [Diabolical Faith]
>>you described it as weak didn't you?

Due to the turmoil scale not due to blood magic.


>Vanheim
>>Alex you are doing your utmost not to get the point it would seem - Vanheim has to pay for a blood pick on its Van Jarls and in general gets nothing for it. Blood is the biggest problem with the Van.

I'd love to see the Van lose the blood skill and be made cheaper. I agree that it's one skill too many for the character.


>I'm not suprised you are happy you got what you campaigned long and hard for. Your response to the dom2 demo was that blood was still overpowered!? For me its a case of goodbye to alot of cool features.

What features are you concerned about? The major change to the potency of the big blood summons was the spell paralyze (which affects more than just the blood summons). The summons are still there, just a bit different.

[apoger]

>What am I missing about Hordes from Hell?

I was reviewing this thread and just caught this and it's worth answering.

HfH is outstanding for a varitety of reasons.

While the imps are weak, they do hit twice, they have a high defense, and since they are small they often gain bonuses from making multiple attacks versus their targets. I wouldn't stack them up one on one versus elite heavy troops, but I would consider them to be fairly good light troops.

Keep in mind that they don't eat, and as such you can stack up an unlimited number.

They have no upkeep, so having a bunch hanging out doesn't hurt you.

They fly, and as such can exploit fast movement and province jumping.

They can be summoned anywhere. The potency of being able to drop troops exactly where needed (including on enemy provinces) should never be underestimated.

The Devil leader is pretty strong. Not pretender or big blood summons strong, but not bad either. Since it's a leader it has item slots, and it can be pumped up fairly significantly.

It's not at all hard to work up enough blood magic to summon two HfH per turn. That's 2 devils and 50 imps. More than enough to blow through a lightly defended province. It's easy to say that you don't mind losing provinces, and that they can be recovered, but it's not a happy situation. When the "war" begins the HfH player can drop 50 imps into your rear. Losing gold and gems is never happy. Next turn another 50 pop up in a percieved weak spot, meanwhile the first 50 fly up to three provinces away. Third turn 50 more show up while the first two manuver. This is a very slippery slope! It's hard to maintain a war while this sort of nonsense is grabbing your provinces and only getting worse and worse. It's very hard to regain the inititive once this starts happening. In fact every time I can recall this being reversed on me it involved my enemy sending in potent Gateway counterattacks, a tactic that is no longer available in Dom2. I'm not saying that it's invincible. What I'm saying is that HfH is effective and not easily dismissed.

Beyond this I often use HfH to snag rear forts from players. Often the forts in the "rear" are almost empty. I like dropping as many HfH on the forts as possible. This often leads to a swift capture before my enemy can respond. At the very least, it gets their attention!

On a similar note, HfH are great for stacking up the "numbers" needed to break down fort walls. Plus once the walls are breached, having troops that can fly over the walls during battle can *really* make life easier during the assault.

I like Hordes from Hell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[alexti]

Originally posted by apoger:

>Jotunheim
>>Skratti are expensive so that your blood searching is very pricey. I still use blood with Jotun but thats because I like it so much thematically - I'm not sure its worth the trouble in most games.

Again I hunt with scouts and use Skratti as summoners.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry to intrude, how hunting using scout comapres to hunting using vaetti hags? Blood-0 vs Blood-1 (later with dousing rod). What is expected ratio of blood slaves captured? Of course, hags have a drawback that on average you only get one blood hag out of 4. But considering, that death-hags can provide some support on the battle field, nature-hags are needed to forge simple supply and morale items, and any hag is pretty cheap researcher.

[apoger]

>how hunting using scout comapres to hunting using vaetti hags

Scouts don't do nearly as well, however they cost only 20 gold each. How many slaves depends a lot on the unrest and size of the province. Furthermore there is a lot of variance when hunting. Scouts will often bring in zero, and other times will get a bunch. It's not uncommon to have twenty scouts working a province and get a result of 15 misses,7,5,2,1,1. Sometimes it's less and sometimes more. The trick is that it's "gem" income that is cultivated by the player. Hammering a province with some scouts in order to generate some "magic currency" is well worth it (IMHO) if you have the gold to spare and can stomach the micromanagment.

I find that 8-10K population provinces seem to get me the best results. More testing would be needed to confirm.

As for hags... I'd send in the blood-1 hags and add in scouts if/when the situation allowed. Work the blood magic on the side, don't let it kill your expansion.

[alexti]

Originally posted by apoger:
>how hunting using scout comapres to hunting using vaetti hags

Scouts don't do nearly as well, however they cost only 20 gold each. How many slaves depends a lot on the unrest and size of the province. Furthermore there is a lot of variance when hunting. Scouts will often bring in zero, and other times will get a bunch. It's not uncommon to have twenty scouts working a province and get a result of 15 misses,7,5,2,1,1. Sometimes it's less and sometimes more. The trick is that it's "gem" income that is cultivated by the player. Hammering a province with some scouts in order to generate some "magic currency" is well worth it (IMHO) if you have the gold to spare and can stomach the micromanagment.

I find that 8-10K population provinces seem to get me the best results. More testing would be needed to confirm.

As for hags... I'd send in the blood-1 hags and add in scouts if/when the situation allowed. Work the blood magic on the side, don't let it kill your expansion. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the explanation, I was making blood hunting responsibility of those blood-hags, considering that it's better use for them than to research, but now I should try to add some scouts as well. And I also find that 8-10K population is about optimal (bigger provinces usually have better use and in smaller ones it's hard to catch decent amount of slaves).

[Keir Maxwell]

I'll have to give scout hunting a try. It seems very odd/not right but if its the way to go then I guess. I certainly can't make sense out of blood hunting with Pandemoniacs in a competitive environment and with the heightened research cost of Sanguine Dousing Rods an approach that
doesn't use them, has to be worth a go.

If Blood is balenced because you can get a decent economy with scouts then thats not the way its was intended and it doesn't seem at all right to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

I do get your point about Alex the HfH is good but considering the scale of investment and how long it takes to get a return I would like some return early in the process. I want some stepping stones along the way to help build a demonic army as HfH doth not a cake make. Would two spine devils for twice the price or so really be a problem? Spells like this could give the impatient yet bloodthirsty, such as myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif , something to enjoy and make it worth the while building up to higher blood magic in short games.

Re Abysia.

Abysia's main strength IMO is its infantry - especially true for the alternate theme. Its fire magic is mediocre with the exception of the high level whammies. I found that when using blood mages for blood hunting I had to delay the hunt a significant while or risk strangling early speed. I find the early speed of development with Abysia to be reasonably good but only if I focus everything on developing - ie cash in fire gems, buy a Anathement Dragon for your main army, get another castle in a resource rich spot (this is really important if you don't get a nice starting spot) and churn out HI which fry the enemy and are virtually immune ot bows. Great stuff as the games go on.

I didn't think the old Abysia with the Moloch and Devils from early was overpowered early and if they had just restricted who gets the Molochs and kept the devil producing it would have been so much more fun. The early Devils were fun - heaps of fun. It was the old high level blood summons and army of scouts with SDRS searching that were obscene.

Paralyse certainly hurts SC based approaches but blood isn't really SC based for Abysia IMO. So far HfH seems to be the main canidate for what blood is about for Abysia and once I have finished slaughtering my way to acension with Pangaea (who rock!) I'll crank up an Abysia race using scouts for blood hunting and focusing on HfH.

Cheers

Keir

[Endoperez]

I had this strange idea few days ago, that doesn't leave me alone. If Maenads gather around Panii, why Pandemoniacs don't get free troops? I know there is a lot of differences, but they could do something with their corrupted magics...

And then the thought caught me: instead of getting maenads, they get blood slaves! Of course, one per turn would be maximum, or maybe too much. Maybe they just should have increased change of finding slaves when hunting, or when hunting in a province with Panii/maenads, but something would be better than nothing. You get blood slaves by money even without this, but with this you are not forced to use scouts (this might be too god if you used them nonetheless)... I have no idea what this would do for balance. And the battle spells should be looked at too, as Pandemoniacs could cast them more often.

Please tell me, is this any good? And what do you think about the work needed to implement it? Ice Devils got free gems in Dom1, so that shouldn't be too hard... But what about the other things?

[apoger]

>I'll have to give scout hunting a try. It seems very odd/not right

It's entirely possible that it's more effective than IW would really want. That's one of the reasons I have brought it up.


>Would two spine devils for twice the price or so really be a problem?

I'm totally on board for making Versions of the spells that summon more than one demon at a time. Frankly I'd like to see this for Vine Men/Ogres and Trolls(no kings) as well.


>I found that when using blood mages for blood hunting I had to delay the hunt a significant while or risk strangling early speed.

Absolutely. Early expansion must be done in order to fuel the blood ramp-up later. Same goes for other magics as well. Now that the elemental summons are weakened (compared to Dom1) there is no very early game magic to rush for. This changes the magic dynamic a lot. Better to expand first, then power down on magic work once things are a bit more secure.


>I find the early speed of development with Abysia to be reasonably good but only if I focus everything on developing - ie cash in fire gems, buy a Anathement Dragon for your main army, get another castle in a resource rich spot (this is really important if you don't get a nice starting spot) and churn out HI which fry the enemy and are virtually immune ot bows.

For Abyisa, I agree that cashing in gems and making at least one more fort is an early priority. At least for my play style.


>I didn't think the old Abysia with the Moloch and Devils from early was overpowered early and if they had just restricted who gets the Molochs and kept the devil producing it would have been so much more fun. The early Devils were fun - heaps of fun.

Agreed. The Moloch got slammed. Loss of devils and a higher cost. It's much weaker than the Dom1 Version. Players asked for *more* gods that had such abilities, instead IW chose to kill the <create> effects. IHMO, a bad choice.


>Paralyse certainly hurts SC based approaches but blood isn't really SC based for Abysia IMO. So far HfH seems to be the main canidate for what blood is about for Abysia and once I have finished slaughtering my way to acension with Pangaea (who rock!) I'll crank up an Abysia race using scouts for blood hunting and focusing on HfH.

When I play Abysia I push for the following magics:

Fire: Incinerate (needs Phoenix Power), Flaming Arrows

Astral: Paralyze, Soul Slay (needs Banner/Light of the northern Star)

Blood: Hordes for Hell

[apoger]

>instead of getting maenads, they get blood slaves!

I wouldn't mind at all if Pandemoniacs attracted a blood slave or two, particularly if it also required turmoil scale.

Good suggestion.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by apoger:
>instead of getting maenads, they get blood slaves!

I wouldn't mind at all if Pandemoniacs attracted a blood slave or two, particularly if it also required turmoil scale.

Good suggestion. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this might require yet another Version though. DIfferent than the no-maenad and the create-vine-things Versions

Also as to the "old gods" I havent checked but if Illwinter held to form they are still around in the monster database, just not used. A new Version would have been made. That means its available for assigning it to yourself or more interestingly to the AI's to use.

For now that would be done with a .map file but soon they will be available as MOD units which would be cool since that effect would be hard to add. MOD means you could use it as a base and change the picture or add other features

[ December 29, 2003, 14:21: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Endoperez:

And then the thought caught me: instead of getting maenads, they get blood slaves! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great thought. Lured by the hypnotic attraction of the corrupt Pan the beautful lass gave herself up to the trance and before she knew it she was on the Altar in a role quite different to the one she had imagined.

cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:
Early expansion must be done in order to fuel the blood ramp-up later. Same goes for other magics as well. Now that the elemental summons are weakened (compared to Dom1) there is no very early game magic to rush for. This changes the magic dynamic a lot. Better to expand first, then power down on magic work once things are a bit more secure.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">National spells have become alot more significant. Panic and Terror being two spells I have usd alot in Dom2. Eagle Eyes is my most commen early spell target and a pretender can often knock that off quickly. For Ctis Raise Dead is still something to keep a serious eye. In general I agree that it was Seasonal Spirits that defined early magic use/abuse in Dom1 and in Dom2 there is no comparable must have early. However there are still a range of useful spells to go for and oddities such as Anathament Salamanders with eyes of aiming casting fireball or air mages with lightning bolts or Astral with its various nasty low level battle spells. Its not hard at all to knock off a moderate level of magic if you are not using your pretender as a SC early and get a useful dish of magic to play with early in the non-blood paths. Sometimes it makes a big difference but mostly its the national spells that I have made a big difference with early.

Cheers

Keir

[Saber Cherry]

Blood Solution

Yay! I got it!

Blood empowerment could be cheaper than other empowerments. I've thought a Dousing Rod should be usable by any mage, not just blood mages. But if not... then since mortals are much more tuned to raw blood energy than other forms of magical energy, why not make blood empowerment much cheaper? Like... say... half price, or a straight 15 slave reduction for every level, or maybe 30 slaves instead of 50 slaves for level-1 blood.

I've also found it nearly impossible to start a blood program soon enough to have it affect the game, even with a large investment, which is sad.

Or... to keep the game more thematic... simply giving all blood races a cheap blood mage would solve the problem... which is, of course, that blood is too slow to make a difference except in long games, and that being a "blood nation" does not really help.

-Cherry

[Jasper]

IMHO this isn't a solution, but makes the situation worse. Why should it be easier for everyone to get into blood magic? It's already pretty easy, considering how cost effective blood hunting with scouts is.

It doesn't take much effort to start summoning Ice Devils, which are effective. Hordes from Hell is even easier to get.

[ December 30, 2003, 10:05: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Jasper:
IMHO this isn't a solution, but makes the situation worse. Why should it be easier for everyone to get into blood magic? It's already pretty easy, considering how cost effective blood hunting with scouts is.

It doesn't take much effort to start summoning Ice Devils, which are effective. Hordes from Hell is even easier to get. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's the rant about Horde from Hell? I saw it mentioned as being such a strong spell, but from what I've seen so far, Imps are pretty lousy, and it doesn't look like 25 of them will do much damage to even a low defense Province. Is it really worth the 30 slaves?

(Caveat: I'm mostly playing SP, with lowish AIs - if the spell becomes especially useful vs human opponents or higher AI levels, I wouldn't know)

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
It doesn't take much effort to start summoning Ice Devils, which are effective. Hordes from Hell is even easier to get. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This just doesn't fit my experiance Jasper. I find it takes alot of effort and as Saber says the game is generally fundamenally over by the time the goodies start to pour out. Hmm lets see I've pretty much won the game now but my Ice Devils have finally arrived. If I had never bothered I could have won it well back. This is how I'm finding it SP. Still I have to give Alex's scout hunting a good try. Not looking forward to it due to the micro-management.

cheers

Keir

[Truper]

This just doesn't fit my experiance Jasper. I find it takes alot of effort and as Saber says the game is generally fundamenally over by the time the goodies start to pour out. Hmm lets see I've pretty much won the game now but my Ice Devils have finally arrived. If I had never bothered I could have won it well back <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm curious about this. What maps are you playing, vs how many opponents, and when is the game "fundamentally over"? I've had great fun with blood magic, and I use it because I do think its fun. Its also not so large an investment, depending on how you work it, so I'm also puzzled by the if I'd never bothered I could have won well back part.

[PvK]

I think it has a lot to do with skill level and play style. Keir talks about playing each nation several times, etc. He's an extremely experienced player. I've been putting most of my free gaming time into Doms I and Doms II for months, and the two games of Doms II I've actually finished of Doms II, ended because the AI wiped me off the map. In the other game, I think I may likely win, but I am still finding it rather challenging (and extremely enjoyable) and I'm having a lot of fun with the blood magic, which is seeming useful and worthwhile. I find that a single blood-1 hunter who now has 3 +1 blood items on him, producing about 9 blood slaves per turn from a 40,000 population province with 60-70% taxes keeping the unrest more or less constant without patrolling, and still providing a good gold income.

It's true I'm focusing more on having fun than trying to maximize my competetiveness, so I don't mean to contest that Blood might not be very efficient compared to other choices, especially for short/small competetive games with humans. Seems like one could generate a whole ton of blood income though if one really focused on that, though.

PvK

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Jasper:
It doesn't take much effort to start summoning Ice Devils, which are effective. Hordes from Hell is even easier to get. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This just doesn't fit my experiance Jasper. I find it takes alot of effort and as Saber says the game is generally fundamenally over by the time the goodies start to pour out. Hmm lets see I've pretty much won the game now but my Ice Devils have finally arrived. If I had never bothered I could have won it well back. This is how I'm finding it SP. Still I have to give Alex's scout hunting a good try. Not looking forward to it due to the micro-management.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not my experience in multiplayer at all. Admitedly this is all from Dom 1, but Ice Devils aren't much harder to summon now. A Pretender or national mages able to summon Ice Devils only requires Blood 5, Construction 4, Alteration 2, and an easily attainable amount of resources.

The Last game I was in was essentially over before turn 60, and saw dozens of equipped Ice Devils, plus Pazazu, etc. This game was far from over before Ice Devils arrived, and they had a definite impact upon it.

I can easily see all Ice Devils being summoned in a competitive game, with the possible exception that the power of Paralyze may scare people away from the strategy.

The tone and setting of the MP is based in the first 15 turns of the game. Then adaptation of that tone and manipulation of the setting are what wins MP games (of moderate size, I'm not talking the largest maps with 17 players, these are more complex to make a statement that bold).

Super-combatants in my opinion while valuable early are not *as* valuable late. Mobility is stronger than strength in this instance and this is where Ice Devils and any other supercombatants are useful. They are usually very mobile and hard to pin down as well as take out with magic if they are built properly.

By and large it is the early supercombatants that provide the initial resource boost that allows you to mold the game in whichever way you are planning. As well as determining if you are an ally, enemy, target, or not worth the cost to fight at that particular time.

This is where astrally potent races excel as they can place a few units (commanders) in provinces or clean up provinces taken by the enemy that can handle and eliminate alot of the high mobility supercombatants.

[Keir Maxwell]

Playing the AI's I find I get to the stage in a game when its cleanup time. Before this is a period in which you are not quite sure if your opponnets will suprise you but then it becomes clear you have got the game won as your armies reach killer status - tight and unbeatable by anything on the board. I like the game to end about this point so at present I'm playing on the non wrap around desert eye with 656 as the dominion total for victory. I had the total at 700 but this actually makes it harder for an AI to steal a win - seeing how many temples they build they have a real shot at beating me even if I would win in the long term. I reach the dom target sometime between turn 40-50 generally. The Last 5-10 turns are often a bit of a chore (I have an extremely taxing other life) as things are generally pretty clear and its only errors to watch out for.

Sure I could play on bigger maps and have longer games and I'm sure thats where blood shines - just my shoulder gives up and my head starts to ache real bad. So I go shorter games.

Jasper I suspect your Dom1 experiance is not as relevant as you might think. In Dom1 I could get Ice Devils on turn 8-9 using a Caelum race focused to the purpose. It's just not the same in Dom2. First there is less money, then there is dousing rods at con4 and only useable by blood mages creating a need for heaps more money, then there is the extra research ofg getting to blood5 instead of 4, then there is the changes to patrolling discouraging you from using a blood7-9 Fountain of Blood to hunt in your home province - that really slows things down.

I find in Dom2 I have to focus more on the basics - army building - and less on the magic. Sure over time the magic kicks in but not as fast. There are alot of different reasons for this from less gold early to decline in the power of Seasonal Spirits.

Of course I accept this is all but speculation and I'm trying hard to prove myself wrong and do some real damage with blood. I appealed because I was getting stuck and I needed some fresh idea's. I'm quite excited about trying out my new Mictlan design with powerful dominion and FoB. I've got the start working but the mid game is really tough and human players would eat me. Mass Protection is what I think the race will turn around not blood. Magic3 for getting to Mass protection relatively early and a starting Dom of 10 for lots of sun Warriors and its looking alot rosier.

Cheers

Keir

[Jasper]

I realize full well that it takes more effort to get to Ice Devils in Dom 2 than in Dom 1, but this merely tones down this most broken of Dom 1 strategies into something more reasonable.

Sure, you'll see less Ice Devils, but I hardly expect to see none -- researching a path to 5 and getting 55 blood slaves just isn't that hard. I doubt you can still get them on turn 8, but you can get them by turn 20 without undue effort.

If Ice Devils end up being unviable, it will be due to fear of Paralyzation.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
you can get them by turn 20 without undue effort.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would rephrase that to you might be able to get them by turn 20 with much effort. To get Ice Devils by t.20 has proved too much for me so far. Sure I haven't tried ditching development to get them but then its not worth it to do so. I'll have a whirl with my new Mictlan race today and see when I can get them by.

My present Mictlan race has done very well and could have got Ice Devil by t.33 if I hadn't had to side track to deal with the Burden of Time.

Comparing Ice Devils in Dom2 to Dom1 is not accurate. The ID's have changed from uber powerful to hard to get and vunerable. Oh and someone else can always beat you to them so you may only get a couple.

cheers

Keir

Cheers

Keir

[General Tacticus]

Let see, researching Blood 5 should cost 300 rp, a good research pretender can easily do that by turn 20 if he does very little else.

Now, you need to have 55 blood slave by turn 20. No problem. But what you really need is to have an income of 55 blood slaves, say at the very least every two turns, with enough over to still spread your dominion. That means, I would say, about 10 mictlan priests (let's use Mictlan) on permanent blood hunt, by turn 20. Plus a way to bring the slaves back, either labs or scouts on carrier duty. (I assume you are not blood hunting in your capital, which is your main source of gold)

I would put that setup at 1000 gold minimum, plus half the commander recruiting capability of your capital. As a rough guess, you have been spending 20% of your gold income on the setup. You would be hard pressed to do some serious site searching at the same time, so no gold from alchemy. And you still have to expand, without your pretender...

Yes, it looks like it can be done, on paper. Still, that 20% of your income will be missed elsewhere : for building additional fortress, province defense, even plain old armies... You also need more priest on sacrifice duties. Not to mention the fact that your good research pretender has cost you a lot of points, so your scales are not that good.

I haven't tried ice devils, so I cannot say how good they are, but would you say 1 Ice devil every two turns is worth investing 20% of your income for the crucial 20 first turns ?

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by General Tacticus:
Let see, researching Blood 5 should cost 300 rp, a good research pretender can easily do that by turn 20 if he does very little else.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I may be wrong but my understanding of how you make a blood economy work includes Sanguine Dousing rods and I certainly wouldn't miss out on early Jade Knives with Mictlan - these make a huge difference. So realistically you have to research con4 first. Build dousing rods with your early blood, empower someone to water3 if your pretender doesn't have it, and summon the Ice Devil and then equip the Ice Devils. Uneqquiped Ice Devils in a heat dominon are not that strong - work best for Jotun and Caelum.

Ice Devils are not strong enough that you can afford to cripple the rest of your development to get them. They must come out of a natural developing race or else you will be meat. My 8-9th turn ICe Devils with Caelum in Dom1 was not a strong race. It was just really cool. My powerful races in Dom1 using Ice Devils didn't get them up and runing till around turn 20 so its going to be a struggle in Dom2 to beat this - I'll give a whirl now and let you know how I go.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

>I may be wrong but my understanding of how you make a blood economy work includes Sanguine Dousing rods and I certainly wouldn't miss out on early Jade Knives with Mictlan - these make a huge difference. So realistically you have to research con4 first.

I never use SDR's in Dom2.
I see little point to Jade Knives unless I'm having extreme dominion scale issues, which has rarely been the case.

If I was planning on doing Con-4 and blood hunting, I'd skip the ID's and concentrate on Soul Contracts and Lifelong Protections. That way there would be some synergy to my plans.

[ January 05, 2004, 22:05: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
So realistically you have to research con4 first. Build dousing rods with your early blood, empower someone to water3 if your pretender doesn't have it, and summon the Ice Devil and then equip the Ice Devils.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What level of construction does the water bracelet require? That and two blood boosting items is what is required for the water mages to summon ice devils.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:

I never use SDR's in Dom2. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know and I do mean to give it a try MM and all. However its sort of like basing a race design around the Blood of human guys with a two handed weapon and shield - its probably not going to be around long and IMO shouldn't be. Going on what Illwinter said they intended people to blood hunt with blood mages. Since you have done such a good job pointing out that this is not how its turned out I'm assumming they will fix this and so, I hope, building a blood economy around blood mages with SDR's will be of more long term learning value.

I see little point to Jade Knives unless I'm having extreme dominion scale issues, which has rarely been the case.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like them heaps. Even with dom6 they put me at the top of the dominion curve and as my SP games are decided by dominon, and it takes along time to undermine well established dominion, I like them.

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
What level of construction does the water bracelet require? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is a water3 booster at con4 and a water2 booster at con6. Empowerment is ok for me - its just mean searching with a water mage early and I like to start my searching programme early.

Anyway must stop reading Posts and crank the Fountain of Blood.

I'm really enjoying making progress with Mictlan.

Cheers

Keir

[Bowlingballhead]

As a GREAT fan of blood magic, I promise you that none of the 'boss' demons are so tremendously powerful in combat. They're more useful for leading other demons around, or because they can summon for free.

Demon knights, on the other hand, darned near rule the battlefield. Hard to dispel, stats equivilant to practically anything that can be bought, fear to disperse most of the enemies that can beat them... very, very fine units. And can they conquer independents? Mow them down like WHEAT. Not perfect, of course, nothing is.

How you run blood magic depends a lot on what race you are. I find Mictlan tough, personally. Their troops are so feeble, it's hard to make those early conquests so vital to getting your blood economy going. And if you pick a Mictlan god (haven't tried Mictlan with a regular god, don't know if it's consistent to them) you have to funnel a huge number of blood slaves into maintaining even minimal dominion.

One thing baffles me. I was under the impression it was patrolling and not the blood hunt itself that lowered population. Yet when I drop tax rates down to zero in a hunted province so I don't have to bother with patrollers, I still lose population! Anybody understand that? I was under the impression lowering taxes would cause growth.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by General Tacticus:
Yes, it looks like it can be done, on paper. Still, that 20% of your income will be missed elsewhere : for building additional fortress, province defense, even plain old armies... You also need more priest on sacrifice duties. Not to mention the fact that your good research pretender has cost you a lot of points, so your scales are not that good.

I haven't tried ice devils, so I cannot say how good they are, but would you say 1 Ice devil every two turns is worth investing 20% of your income for the crucial 20 first turns ? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the investment cost is actually less, with more of it coming towards the end and less during expansion. In particular scouts are cheap and effective blood hunters.

Well equipped Ice Devils were quite powerfull in Dom 1, and the only thing I've seen significantly change in Dom 2 is Paralyze. With a Wraith Sword and Regeneration Ring they wade through conventional armies. Quickness plus their cold bonus gives them high enough stats to deal with other tough combatants.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
I know and I do mean to give it a try MM and all. However its sort of like basing a race design around the Blood of human guys with a two handed weapon and shield - its probably not going to be around long and IMO shouldn't be. Going on what Illwinter said they intended people to blood hunt with blood mages. Since you have done such a good job pointing out that this is not how its turned out I'm assumming they will fix this and so, I hope, building a blood economy around blood mages with SDR's will be of more long term learning value.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This may be the crux of our disagreement. If scouts weren't so good at hunting summoning Ice Devils would be a much bigger investment.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
As a GREAT fan of blood magic, I promise you that none of the 'boss' demons are so tremendously powerful in combat. They're more useful for leading other demons around, or because they can summon for free. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you seriously suggesting that Super Combatants are ineffective?! I have seen and done otherwise, and from what I've read my exerience is common.

I have gotten an Ice Devil with a Wraith Sword and Boots of Flight by turn 16. Then turn 17 Alteration 2.

It is more than possible with some nations; and it isn't that disruptive to your economy as you need your economy to build the slaves and research needed.

The primary issue is you need a nation that is naturally strong and has significant surviviability in their normal units.

They key is not to overexpand. Though personally I don't like putting all my eggs into one type of basket http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Which is what you are doing, however that Ice Devil crippled 1 opponent and allowed me to be much larger and stronger than any of the other players by turn 25.

[Keir Maxwell]

Just knocked off an Ice Devil by turn 20 doing it via construction. Got Nycator who can't take weapons and is extremely sensitive to temperature - not good for Mictlan.

Did it affect my development? Hugely. I got hammered - but I got an Ice Devil.

Skipping construction I could go significantly quicker but to what affect? Not an efficient option for Mictlan with their heat dominion - more a Caelum/Jotun thing with their cold Dominion. Ice Devils are not *that* good unless you are a cold nation. Geting them t.8-9 with Caelum in dom1 was freak show material - Caelum was vastly more powerful played conventionally.

I think for Mictlan if you want to go blood early its as Alex suggested - Contracts utilsing your con research and then I'd follow up with a bit of conj, then alt6 for Mass Protection. I hate watching my guys get trashed by real troops. Going con2 then alt6 is what I'll try next and then see how the blood is looking.

One thing I would say - Mictlan can sure get alot of slaves! The Mictlan Priest is pretty amazing as a blood searcher with an SDR and with magic3 the research flies. I'm not so sure SDR's are redundant. At least not for Mictlan with their ultra cheap blood mage.

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
This may be the crux of our disagreement. If scouts weren't so good at hunting summoning Ice Devils would be a much bigger investment. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So from that may I take it that you agree that early blood could do with a boost (perhaps more multi-summons) when Illwinter fix the glich making scouts good blood hunters?

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
As a GREAT fan of blood magic, I promise you that none of the 'boss' demons are so tremendously powerful in combat. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you seriously suggesting that Super Combatants are ineffective?! I have seen and done otherwise, and from what I've read my exerience is common. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think his comment was about SC's in general but "boss" demons.

In Dom1 Ice Devils and Illearths were great SC's but the others weren't really set up for SC. In Dom2 with only 1 Illearth and 7 Ice devils its not exactly a huge pool of SC's to go after - especially if other players are also looking at demons.

Cheers

Keir

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
So from that may I take it that you agree that early blood could do with a boost (perhaps more multi-summons) when Illwinter fix the glich making scouts good blood hunters?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've always thought the low level summons needed a boost, although I actually think the blood ones are better than many of the lower level Conjurations. I'd vote for lowering the cost of things like Cave Drakes slightly, and doubling the cost/output of the low level demon summons.

However, I don't think it's a glitch that scouts are good blood hunters, as they've always been that way (worse with dousing rods). I'm not sure whether/how to rebalance them, as most of the races with blood magic rely upon them to get anything out of it. Besides, IMHO Scouts themeatically make sense for the job.

One thought is to only allow blood mages to hunt for slaves -- or anyone with a dousing rod. This makes more sense to me thematically, but is a very drastic change.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
I don't think his comment was about SC's in general but "boss" demons.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMHO there is no way to avoid the comparison, as the big demons make the best Super Combatants, with the occasional exception of Pretenders.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Zen:
I have gotten an Ice Devil with a Wraith Sword and Boots of Flight by turn 16. Then turn 17 Alteration 2.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's pretty scary! I'd hate to run into such a nation without access to Paralyze. Were you using Jotunheim?

No I used Arco. So I had access to Paralyze as well. Arco is probably my top pick for survivable units with the combination of high hit point Elephants, high protection and shield using Hypsists (for 2 movement with elephants) and a priestess for heal.

I used my pretender (3 Turns) and a scout population to field the slaves and my cheap researchers were mystics.

Another bonus is that Arco doesn't need to use it's mage base to expand like others (for quickness, raise skeletons, etc) to expand as they are powerful later as opposed to right away.

Another one that worked very well was C'tis I had a IDevil at turn 20, then 21 I got the sword and boots (this is my favored way to equip an ID for owning provinces) as well as my alteration. I also had Enchantment 3. So by and large, it can be done if you really force yourself. But I've found more to my liking, casting 2 Hordes from Hell, as it allows multiple armies nearly as effective as the ID as well as patrol force.

I'd have to play with it more; but it does come with certain costs and isn't for every race.

I never played the Dom1 ID rush; but this is perfectly acceptable timing for me to have or fight against an ID. Turn 10 would be hard, but nearing 20 it's more copeable.

[Bowlingballhead]

And yes, I'm saying SCs are not all that. They were the first direction I moved in - I love building magic items. Then I learned the hard way that any decently large army will mow a SC down, if by no other process than statistical probability. Wounds, the chance of running into ugly spells - a SC strategy is no better than any other. And Ice Devils? I've looked them over. Good stats. If you want to go the SC direction, they're as good as anybody else for the job, I suppose. Don't come crying to me when a bunch of knights lance your killer demon to death and you have to rebuild, though.

Now, there is ONE thing here that might change my mind. Up until today I had never heard of this 'using scouts to blood hunt' thing. If there's a trick to make blood slaves much more accessable, especially to traditionally non-blood races, the balance of power shifts towards demons considerably by sheer ease of access. After all, the *potential* for blood slave income and efficiency as a source of magic is tremendous, but in my experience it's always taken too long to get going unless you're a blood magic race - and if you are, you're generally magically restricted enough that making good uber-equipment is hard.

So by all means, convince me. Tell me this blood slave reaping trick.

Although I still might just stick to demon knights. They're tremendously efficient themselves.

[Keir Maxwell]

Jasper I read what Illwinter siad on what they were trying to do with blood and in my opinion the scout thing is a major gliche. Thats why Alex made a big deal of pointing it out - so they could correct it. With scouts blood hunting its back to anyone having access to blood.

I have been playing blood hard for the Last few days, I have summoned Ice Devils, Arch Devils, Fallen Angels and every sort of little blood summon and my honest opinion is that blood is the worst path of magic. I have done worse in the games I have used blood than using Tien Ch'i Barbarian Kingdoms. I do better with Mictlan when I largely ignore blood and go for mass protection instead.

In PBEM I aim to play in games with a high level of experiance and the pace is generally fast and cut throat. This is not a style question but a survival question. In this sort of game I think blood is crap. Playing SP, for me, blood is crap because I do so much better when I ignore it. So for me blood is crap and thats very sad.

I think people got carried away on the whole anti-blood thing in Dom1 and there was alot of miss information around about what the problem was - many seem to think the blood SC's in Dom1 are simply overpowered as opposed to overpresent. My experiance using fuly equipped ID's is that they are very expensive and somewhat vunerable - and that was before paralyse.

Jasper have you played blood much? Your comments about blood SC's are just so wrong. Sure Ice Devils and Illearth are good SC's - thats one Illearth and some of the 7 ID's. The other big demonic summonings are not great for the job. In general ID's are nowhere near as good as people think. I used them as suggested in Dom1 and lost them. I learnt and used them in packs after that. A good army (including mages generally) will crush a small number of fully equipped SC's in my experiance. And this isn't even taking paralyse into account.

SC's have fallen along way in Dom2 and I suspect that even if you could still summon theorericaly unlimited numbers of ID's it wouldn't be a problem in practice. Blood used to be the mid/late game SC path but now mid/late game SC's are vastly weaker and blood is much weaker. The combined affect is under impressive.

When is blood good then? On a big map, in a slow paced game, using the dodgy (MM intensive) scout hunting trick.

I have tried really hard to make blood work. In the process I have managed to make Mictlan work ok but I still haven't got blood to work. Blood the only thing worse than Mictlan? Nah Abysia using blood is still better than Mictlan.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Just had a minor break through - easy research. I'll be playing with this for the next period as in general I find mundane approaches overpowered in Dom2 - see thread on subject.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

>many seem to think the blood SC's in Dom1 are simply overpowered as opposed to overpresent.


No, they were very overpowered, although it wasn't just the ID's, it was the ID's in conjunction with easy hunting and the Blood Fountain.


>My experiance using fuly equipped ID's is that they are very expensive and somewhat vunerable - and that was before paralyse.

In Dom1... they kicked butt every which way. There was no downside.


>In general ID's are nowhere near as good as people think.

Obviously, but you must be missing something.


>I used them as suggested in Dom1 and lost them.

Nobody said they were invincible, just too powerful for the costs.


>I learnt and used them in packs after that.

In Dom1? Where you equiping them well? They should only be sent in packs if naked.


>A good army (including mages generally) will crush a small number of fully equipped SC's in my experiance. And this isn't even taking paralyse into account.

In Dom1? You'd better cross your fingers on those mages. Good luck on massing enough before the ID's showed up. That was the issue.

In Dom2, things are MUCH more sane. The Blood Fountain is no longer absurd, SDR's are weaker, and the ID more expensive. I would never want to go back to the Dom1 path of blood, as it was crazy overpowered.


>Blood used to be the mid/late game SC path but now mid/late game SC's are vastly weaker and blood is much weaker. The combined affect is under impressive.

In Dom1 it wasn't mid/late game at all. Often there would be ID's roaming about before turn ten.

In Dom2 they have been relagated to later in the game. Rightly so. All the summonable supercombatant "chassis" should be relegated to the mid game at the earliest.


>When is blood good then? On a big map, in a slow paced game, using the dodgy (MM intensive) scout hunting trick.


Playing on small maps has biased your impressions. Play in longer games and you'll get an idea of why high level magics including blood are critical.

[Truper]

ID anecdote:

I was using a fairly buffed ID (Wraith Sword, Rainbow Armor, Boots of Quickness IIRC) in its vaunted "take provinces by itself" role. I used it to take a couple provinces from C'tis, and then it withstood a counter-attack or two. I then noted that another attack by the Lizards got it, so I watched the battle to see what did him in. Turns out the army that did it had one squad of Manikins. The ID took them out a 2 per round, but the rest were able to hit him enough to put him to sleep.

I am of the opinion that SCs are fun, but I think I'd ignore them if I were trying to maximize my efficiency, rather than my fun quotient http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Blood magic as a whole is nearly useless in a small map or short game. That is more of a production war.

Where it really shines is the mid to late game. As should be seen.

[Jasper]

Alex's opinion mirrors mine exactly, so I won't repeat it. IMHO several of the people who don't think Ice Devils are effective are misusing them (trying to take on large mage backed armies alone) or misequipping them (missing regeneration rings or antimagic amulets). These details make all the difference.

In response to Keir, no I haven't played Ice Devils competitively myself, but I have faced them. Without paralyzation it was not so easy to fight them as people suggest. Large mage backed armies are fairly easy for IDs to avoid -- but cost more than IDs and are less mobile. Such armies are also severely curtailed once Murdering Winter is in use.

[Jasper]

I guess what I'm getting at is that IMHO IDs were clearly the most powerfull tactic in Dom 1, and the burden of proof IMHO is heavily upon those who would claim they're ineffective in Dom 2.

More expensive? Less Effective? Sure. Ineffective? IMHO hardly.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Jasper:
I guess what I'm getting at is that IMHO IDs were clearly the most powerfull tactic in Dom 1, <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As you never used them competetively this is a strange claim and I think its wrong - Air elementals made ID's look tame. Seasonal spirits could end the game before you could get enough ID's to do much. ID's were only good with magic items and that takes time to get. Seasonal spirits and air elementals were absolute massacre material and affected play far more than ID's in my experiance. Seasonal Spirits defined dom1 play for me.

Alex I have a fairly good idea how to use ID's in dom1 and have used them just as you say (I was following your advice) and early on I followed your and others advice that they were insanely poweful and you only needed one to kill an enemy army/conquer a province - only it didn't work. After losing my first 4 in PBEM I used them in packs and they kicked butt. I think there was a good degree of sensationalism about ID's based on peoples very real and horrible experiances facing 4+ in one army. I have never found single SC's to be a signifcant threat to a main army. They are more use raiding and even then can die to bad luck. Just having two makes it a heap safer.

You posted your ideas on what a killer SC was Alex and people wrote back saying they tried it and did ok for awhile and then got unlucky. I tried your ideas in Dom1 Alex and kept losing the pretender. I remember one idea you had for a quick start using the Earth Mother and some black plate. I tried and and she died relatively early. I have always though you must be a dedicated, and skilled, gambler with your love of SC's. As the game goes on it becomes easier and easier to get unlucky and I'm not prepared to take that risk. I tried and others tried against me and I am convinced its not worth the all your eggs in one basket risk involved. Give your opponent a heap of threats and targets is my approach and was in dom1. Its just alot more flexible.

As for having plenty of mages in armies I generally did this in Dom1 - HI are gold cheap mages are resource cheap. Basis of much dominions play. I remember being told how nasty Lammashta's are just before an opponent tried them on me and guess what - they got bLasted off the battle field and only did damage when he found my scout - damage to him. A well balenced army in Dom1 or 2 is the best thing and ss the game goes on that can include multiple SC's. If you want you can run around with single ultra expensively equipped SC's but opponents I have played doing this have mainly been gifting me magic items though they often take a few provinces before I nail them. I got to kill an equiped Moloch twice in one game and helped equipped my ID's from the loot.

Sure Blood is good in a longer MM intensive game suited to those younger, or with more stamina or whatever it takes, than me. However I miss blood. It used to be useable from very early and I wish it still was. Sure this is my experiance and others playing slower games have a different experiance.

You pay for those blood skills even if you don't get any use out of them. What I want is to be able to get use out of blood playing Dom the way I do. This is a natural enough desire to want to get to make the most of my bag of toys.

Cheers

Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by apoger:

>A good army (including mages generally) will crush a small number of fully equipped SC's in my experiance. And this isn't even taking paralyse into account.

In Dom1? You'd better cross your fingers on those mages. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No I gave them protection. Sure the cost was significant but not crushing and they only need the protective items vs other nations so you can use them fairly safely vs indies until the magic itmes arrive

I played the ID's before turn 10 races in Dom1 and they were nowhere near as powerful as the other races I played. Its just not worth the expense until you can equip the ID's so you need to get your gem income going by searching etc. Same as the mages need to get protection but in the meanwhile the mages are still great helping conquering indies and don't need protective items for this.

I'll just repeat the point in my other post - want Dom1 fast monstrosities then look no furhur than Seasonal spirits and Air elemntals. ID's didn't compete in that role - however later they rocked.

The big problem with ID's in Dom1 was not the power of 1 ID but the power of 1 ID a turn - and that was achievable by about turn 20. That is why I stress the issue of quantity.

Cheers

Keir

[apoger]

>Air elementals
>Seasonal spirits

These certainly were two other very potent Dom1 paths. Both got ripped to shreds in Dom2, so what is your complaint in relation to ID's in Dom2.

All three strong strategies got nerfed. I don't see what you are complaining about.


>could end the game before you could get enough ID's to do much.

Not in my experience.


>ID's were only good with magic items and that takes time to get.


They were good without items... just BETTER with.


>Alex I have a fairly good idea how to use ID's in dom1 and have used them just as you say (I was following your advice) and early on I followed your and others advice that they were insanely poweful and you only needed one to kill an enemy army/conquer a province - only it didn't work.


If you didn't get ID's to work then you were doing something wrong (in Dom1). I'm sorry, you can complain until blue in the face, but it won't make them any less abusive in Dom1, nor will you convince people to make them cheaper in Dom2. Feel free to try, but you're just spinning your wheels.


>After losing my first 4 in PBEM I used them in packs and they kicked butt.


If you were losing ID's often, then you either had outragously bad luck, were putting them into bad battles, or were under equipping them.


>I think there was a good degree of sensationalism about ID's based on peoples very real and horrible experiances facing 4+ in one army.

The bad experiences with them went well beyond that.


>I have never found single SC's to be a signifcant threat to a main army.

"Main Army"? As in what? The biggest enemy stack including mages? Of course you don't send the ID after that. Use some common sense.


>They are more use raiding

BINGO!


>and even then can die to bad luck.

As can most anything.


>You posted your ideas on what a killer SC was


Actually I have never posted any "killer SC's", I have only posted SC ideas to help others get started or gain some insight into how to make their own.


>and people wrote back saying they tried it and did ok for awhile and then got unlucky.

Some. What do you expect? I never said that supercombatants were invincible. In fact I have gone out of my way to help people deal with them.


>I tried your ideas in Dom1 Alex and kept losing the pretender.

You lost a pretender! Shocking!

Seriously Keir, I'm pretty clear when describing my suggestions. Did I say "Do this and your pretender will be invincible"? Or was it more like "Try this and it will aid your initial expansion"?


>I remember one idea you had for a quick start using the Earth Mother and some black plate. I tried and and she died relatively early.

Try again. I never suggested black plate. It would fatigue the Great Mother too much, which is already an issue for her. The Great Mother doesn't need armor since she can cast ironskin or invulnerability.


>I have always though you must be a dedicated, and skilled, gambler with your love of SC's.

In Dom1 there was no gamble.
In Dom2 there is more danger, but it's still worthwhile.


>I tried and others tried against me and I am convinced its not worth the all your eggs in one basket risk involved.

I never put all my eggs in one basket. SC's are just one of many tools.


>Give your opponent a heap of threats and targets is my approach and was in dom1. Its just alot more flexible.

Hrm... you mean something along the lines of flying 7 ID's into my enemies territory?

I assure you that my play style is all about the "heap of threats".


>I remember being told how nasty Lammashta's are just before an opponent tried them on me and guess what - they got bLasted off the battle field and only did damage when he found my scout - damage to him.

I'm not sure why you are mentioning this... however Lammashta's are tricky to use. Sometimes they can be used to tremendous effect. Other times not. If I were you I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly.


>If you want you can run around with single ultra expensively equipped SC's but opponents I have played doing this have mainly been gifting me magic items though they often take a few provinces before I nail them.

Have I or anyone else every suggested that anyone set-up a "single ultra expensively equipped SC"?

You are reading more into what has been written than was there.


>What I want is to be able to get use out of blood playing Dom the way I do.


While I have no issue with players making suggestions, you can't expect Illwinter to alter the game just to accomodate a playing style that is near unique to you.

I suggest that you wait for the mod software, and make yourself a "Blood magic works fast, so I can play quick games abusing that one facet of the game" mod.

[Bowlingballhead]

I just want to say: Truper, I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
As you never used them competetively this is a strange claim and I think its wrong - Air elementals made ID's look tame. Seasonal spirits could end the game before you could get enough ID's to do much. ID's were only good with magic items and that takes time to get. Seasonal spirits and air elementals were absolute massacre material and affected play far more than ID's in my experiance. Seasonal Spirits defined dom1 play for me.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both air elementals and seasonal spirits had easy and effective counters if you were prepared. In my experience they weren't even in the same league as IDs, which didn't really have a powerfull and cost effective counter.

IMHO Air elementals and Seasonals were in practice only really nasty against new players who hadn't considered their effectiveness. Their window of effectiveness was brief, whereas Ice Devils were effective for the rest of the game.

Moreover, equipped Ice Devils were only a few turns slower than Seasonals due to ramping research totals. IMHO your claim about "the game being over" before IDs is exaggeration. Equipped Ice Devils cost roughly as much as two castings of Summer Lions, and would mop the floor with them -- plus they could lead, cast spells, and generate gems. Well worth waiting a bit for IMHO.

[Truper]

Originally posted by Jasper:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
I just want to say: Truper, I couldn't have put it better myself. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMHO it's worth pointing out that Truper lost in his example because he made several mistakes. He had the wrong equipment on his Ice Devil for the task, and sat still for several turns while his opponent brought in an appropriate counter.

In particular Wraith Swords don't work against 0 encumberance undead, Ice Devils can cast Quickness without needing 10 gems for boots, and one can expect the possibility of Mandragoras from C'tis and prepare with higher MR.

Even still it looks to me like he lost due to bad luck, as his Magic Resistance and defense should have been high enough to be mostly immune to Sleep Vines. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMHO its worth pointing out that Bowlingballhead was probably referring to "I am of the opinion that SCs are fun, but I think I'd ignore them if I were trying to maximize my efficiency, rather than my fun quotient" when he said that he couldn't have put it better.

Wraith Swords work particularly well against the various sorts of lizards C'tis could be expected to, and did, send along with its Manakins. Having boots saves a round (or half a round depending on how you look at it) and 20 fatigue, both of which are valuable if the ID does happen to face the 0 encumberence undead before anything else. Rainbow Armor increases magic resistance, as well as providing reinvigoration, and so is quite valuable preparation if facing sleep vines.

The only real point to the anecdote was to provide an example of the many cheap and effective counters to large and expensive monsters which abound in Dominions.

[ January 08, 2004, 14:58: Message edited by: Truper ]

[Jasper]

You could have done better than the situation you described. For example seizing rather than yielding the initiative, skipping the Boots of Quickness, having an Antimagic Amulet, a Regeneration Ring, and/or a Luck Pendent. Facing C'tis I'd also consider replacing the Wraith Sword with some one handed weapon and either a Vine|Char|Luck shield.

Everyone makes mistakes, no big deal, but IMHO subpar play doesn't make for a good example of the (supposed) weakness of Super Combatants, nor does it support your opinion that SCs are not efficient.

As a side note, casting quickness costs an Ice Devil much less than 20 fatigue, and is well worth the 10 gem savings. Winged or Messenger Boots are much better for IDs than Quickness boots.

[ January 09, 2004, 02:17: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Bowlingballhead:
I just want to say: Truper, I couldn't have put it better myself. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMHO it's worth pointing out that Truper lost in his example because he made several mistakes. He had the wrong equipment on his Ice Devil for the task, and sat still for several turns while his opponent brought in an appropriate counter.

In particular Wraith Swords don't work against 0 encumberance undead, Ice Devils can cast Quickness without needing 10 gems for boots, and one can expect the possibility of Mandragoras from C'tis and prepare with higher MR.

Even still it looks to me like he lost due to bad luck, as his Magic Resistance and defense should have been high enough to be mostly immune to Sleep Vines.

Keir,

I think you need to try them more in an MP situation instead of test-runs. Things take on a totally different light when dealing with living, breathing opponents. A 10 turn test run is all I'd ever take any credibility to tests, as it gives you a shaping of whatever strategy/tactic you're using more often than not tainted by MP experiance. After turn 10 most of what can be conjectured is hypothetical and dependant on circumstance(s) so it's irrelevant to make broad generalizations until you have quite a few games under your belt. Which with this game is more difficult than your standard twitch game. Especially since you'd have to play a single nation repeatedly against a diverse swath of opponents.

Scout blood hunting is the only issue I think needs to be addressed. Whether it was intended or not; I'd prefer to know. Because it seems that the 'added benefit of blood magic' nations don't have any sort of edge with it. the scouts ease of getting slaves and low requirements for getting the 'good' blood spells (HfH and ID's) lets any race early (if they have mages or find some) or later use blood magic just as effectively. Maybe an added bonus to searching for an entire nation (Like Mictlan or Pangaea) could represent some sort of difference.

[Jasper]

I like the idea of varrying the effectiveness of most units blood hunting according to the controlling faction!

A similar thought is to varry the effectivess of hunters depending on the power of blood mages present. So mundane units couldn't find slaves without blood mage present to tell them where to look, and hunting efficiency would increase (but taper off) as more/more-powerfull blood mages are added.

This way nations with access to blood mages would have an advantage, without hard coding it. It would also give you some reason to recruit blood mages beyond the few needed to summon demons.

[Windreaper]

Ok, I suppose I could add my two cents here since the topic is sort of close to my heart.

First, I seriously dislike trampling supercombatants mainly due to fatigue issues. They're just too darn easy to lose. Also, high mr and some reinvigoration are a must with any supercombatant, wraith sword or not. Boots of the messenger is especially good for ice devil since he doesn't really need the slot for anything else. Getting hit by sleep/stellar cascades/sleep vines and such can otherwise really ruin your day. Antimagic amulet is bare minimum mr boost you should get. I'd consider starshine skullcap mandatory, however.

As people mentioned before, supercombatants should be used with an army because they're just too easy to lose - spells like wind ride and mind hunt, for example, can put hurt to single commanders no matter who they are. Also, with an army you usually have access to Relief which really helps to keep your SC alive.

EQ I use with Ice Devils.

Weapons: wraith sword, blood thorn (low dmg but allows for a shield)
Shields: Not a big issue since they're nowadays downgraded but with blood thorn I'd probably use the lucky coin/lead shield (vine shield and eye shield are also good for special occasions).
Helmets: spirit helmet, horror helmet, starshine skullcap (again, depending on how much mr I need, usually the latter) expensive gemwise 99,9% of the time, however). Fire helmet and wraith crown are also ok if you're _really_ swimming in gems.
Armor: elemental hauberk, rainbow armor, hydra skin armor or alternatively shadow cloak/bless shirt if you got no prot issues or invulnerability cloak if you got absolutely no other uses for gems :PP
Boots: boots of the messenger, flying boots (again, unless I'm using rainbow armor I often get the messenger boots)
Misc: regen ring, antimagic amulet, luck pendant (all these are pretty standard, if I get regen through hydra skin, for example I replace regen ring with luck pendant but consider the first two mandatory unless the SC already regens).

EDIT: decided to add example ID for early game (all items const 4)

Weapon: wraith sword
Helmet: horror helm
Armor: elemental hauberk
Boots: boots of the messenger
Misc1: regen ring
Misc2: antimagic amulet

The result is a bit weak in the mr department (22) but otoh it got full elemental immunity, high prot and some reinvigoration to fend of extra fatigue from the hauberk. Later in the game you should really try to upgrade him to stand up to nasty summons and such.

Later game ID:

Weapon: blood thorn
Shield: lucky coin
Armor: elemental hauberk
Helmet: starshine skullcap
Boots: boots of the messenger
Misc1: regen ring
Misc2: antimagic amulet

mr is slightly higher. Use of shield increased prot and defence and introduced luck with only a slight reduction in damage. If facing magic-heavy nations you could consider exchanging either the armor or shield for the mr Versions (lead shield, rainbow armor).

[ January 09, 2004, 05:32: Message edited by: Windreaper ]

[Jasper]

Good example! Interesting that you consider the Starshine Skullcap mandatory, although with the new power of Paralyze I can begin to see why.

IMHO you can still use Ice Devils solo for raiding or taking on small forces (just not full armies). The trick is to move lots of scouts with them, which you then unstealth as chaff.

Now if only we could draw Wendigo into the discussion... I'd love to hear his thoughts on Super Combatants, especially in Dom 2.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
EQ I use with Ice Devils.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agree on every point, except the Messenger boots. Flying is an awesome ability to get on Ice devils (more for strategical than tactical reasons). I was fond of starshine skullcaps and rainbow armors for my SCs in Doms 1.

An idea that might be worth trying: give your IDs Bone armors (those with builtin Soul Vortex) - they're expensive but as long as there's a living creature in the vicinity you've got fatigue recovery even if unconscious. And that might win you a battle even if paralyzed.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
As people mentioned before, supercombatants should be used with an army because they're just too easy to lose - spells like wind ride and mind hunt, for example, can put hurt to single commanders no matter who they are. Also, with an army you usually have access to Relief which really helps to keep your SC alive.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agree.

Interesting post - must study it at my leasure.

On the SC topic I've been having fun with Utgard Jotun Herses and Jarls and high nature (10) and some fire(4). What I like about it is you can try out heaps of different arrangements of magic items. Seems to work alright and having a big number of cheap weak to medium SC's means less vunerability to nasty spells. I'm enjoying this approach more than the limited SC angle of blood. Still a bit of tweaking to go but a race with a heap of SC's (even if they aren't flash) gives much of the pleasure of old SC races.

Are Jotun Herses the SC's of the future? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Cheers

Keir

[Windreaper]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Windreaper:
EQ I use with Ice Devils.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agree on every point, except the Messenger boots. Flying is an awesome ability to get on Ice devils (more for strategical than tactical reasons). I was fond of starshine skullcaps and rainbow armors for my SCs in Doms 1.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I see your point there and to quote myself:
"Boots: boots of the messenger, flying boots (again, unless I'm using rainbow armor I often get the messenger boots)"

Still, getting nailed by a single quickened arch seraph casting orb lightning kind of sucks so I'd take survivability over strategic mobility in this case. It's a matter of taste however. Rainbow Armor/Flying Shoes might be better if you wish to take part in smaller combats with less mage power in play.

Jasper: Good point, you just don't want to unstealth your scouts. If they happen to get attacked and you lose a scout the whole army retreats, ugh. Never tried it this way so I'm not 100% sure of this, however. OTOH, you could always keep some mock troops with your ID to prevent this from happening.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
I see your point there and to quote myself:
"Boots: boots of the messenger, flying boots (again, unless I'm using rainbow armor I often get the messenger boots)"<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes I've seen that line, but myself I'll stick to flying boots in most cases even with no rainbow armor. I couldn't pass on the fact that flying IDs can strike wherever I want within a 3-provinces radius, and limiting your opponent's ability to predict your next move so drastically is invaluable. In a sense this unpredictability improves the ID's survavibility, while maximizing his efficiency at the same time (on the contrary a non-flying IDs isn't assured to fight every turn, and may often miss opportunities to cause the most damage to your enemy).

Still, getting nailed by a single quickened arch seraph casting orb lightning kind of sucks so I'd take survivability over strategic mobility in this case.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't see how boots of the messenger would help better than flying boots in this scenario. When you fly you can always hit something, and regain hit points and fatigue from it. Although if I knew I had to fight Caelum, I'd just fly away to a lab, equip shock resistance gear, and be back to fight 2 turns later.

It's a matter of taste however. Rainbow Armor/Flying Shoes might be better if you wish to take part in smaller combats with less mage power in play.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Everyone is allowed his own opinion and I respect yours. I prefer to use IDs as raiders, and flying is essential to me. Now of course I could use the trampling winged armor with boots of the messenger. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The part I like about the flying boots is you can send out your ID out only partially equipped (without the Elemental Hauberk for example) with flying boots as you choose provinces that have less likely of a chance of getting attacked by anything except provencial defenses. Hurting your opponent faster or while you don't have as many gems as you need. Then when you get your new equipment forged you can just jump back to a lab like Nagot said and equip him. Also I have alot more success with killing retreating armies by boxing in provinces with IDs.

Even with Starshine Cap, Lead Shield, and AMA the poor guy will still get hit by spells, especially if the casters have any sort of penetration. That's why I think that Windreaper considers the cap *required* because it is basically a 'free slot' with MR on it.

[ January 09, 2004, 21:11: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
Jasper: Good point, you just don't want to unstealth your scouts. If they happen to get attacked and you lose a scout the whole army retreats, ugh. Never tried it this way so I'm not 100% sure of this, however. OTOH, you could always keep some mock troops with your ID to prevent this from happening. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Stealthy targets don't get hit by spells like Wind Ride, and so you must unstealth your scouts for them to work as chaff. Stealth is a very nice ability for a raiding Super Combatant to have!

You do have to be a bit carefull, for as you allude this scout tactic is vulnerable to teleport attacks (before you leave the scouts), especially if your retreat provinces are simultaneosly cut. Still, this is less of a risk than Wind Ride.

[ January 10, 2004, 05:22: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Jasper]

My main knock against the Starshine Skullcap and to an extent even Winged Boots is that they aren't strictly neccesary, yet significantly increase the IDs cost. Then again, you can't mass produce IDs as you could in Dom 1, so it makes more sense to stack a few extra items on.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Jasper:
My main knock against the Starshine Skullcap and to an extent even Winged Boots is that they aren't strictly neccesary, yet significantly increase the IDs cost.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In Doms 1 I didn't give skullcaps to every ID I summoned, but I tried my best to give them flying boots. 5 air gems is not a significant increase in cost, I'd even say it's the reverse: if you want to use a mass ID strategy efficiently, you'd better make sure these 30 blood slaves pay for themselves each turn - and that means flying. As I pointed out, a non-flying ID may not seen combat as often as a flying one, to me a lost ID turn is 30 slaves idling for nothing. When I used mass IDs in Doms 1, almost all had flying boots, some had amulets of AM or pendants of luck, a few had wraith swords and/or rings of regeneration, only the picked best had extra stuff like rainbow/elemental armors or starshine skullcaps.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
In Doms 1 I didn't give skullcaps to every ID I summoned, but I tried my best to give them flying boots. 5 air gems is not a significant increase in cost, I'd even say it's the reverse: <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed. The amount of time you spend fighting as a powerful flyer is worth the extra air cost. I always had a really soft spot for Wraith Swords as well and the old amulet of luck is cheap and very effective. It was always hard to know where to stop.

cheers

Keir