Alexander's ever-expanding Tome of Knowledge

[apoger]

As I play Dom2 I discover all sorts of interesting and fun techniques.
I keep telling myself that I should do some essays on these subjects, but I never seem to get around to it. The sheer number of things I have to say are absolutely daunting, and every time I start I end up burning out.

What I've decided to do is make a thread on this forum (you're reading it) and every time I have somthing to spew, I'll just jot it down there. It might not be as complete or as in-depth as it could be, but at least I'll get some of my thoughts into a place where they won't disappear, and where other players can view them.

Some of these ideas are serious strategies and tactics. Others are just fun.
Please feel free to comment, or add in your own ideas. However if you want to explore a topic in detail, please start a new thread. Use common sense.

In the meantime I'll just deposit my thoughts here when I have the time and inclination.


-Alex Poger http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[apoger]

New Classifications


A while back I coined the term Supercombatant as a description of super high power units. Over time players have started to use this term in ways that are different than the initial meaning. This has caused some frustrating conversations, and subsequent confusion. Simply put, the Dominions community needs more naming conventions so players can communicate with more precision.

Many players have started using the term Supercombatant for almost anything larger than heavy infantry. That isn't very useful since the scope of units that are more potent than heavy infantry is fairly large. As such I am now suggesting two new classifications, and redescribing the term Supercombatant.


THUG

Simply put a thug goes out and beats things up and has a reasonable chance of surviving. Thugs don't beat up high power armies, and they aren't meant to be invincible. They are meant to be cheap and efficient ways of applying a beat down.

Some examples of thugs would be:
Neifelheim Giant
Hydra
Wyrm (no/little magic)
Vanjarl - with magic weapon and casting mistform
Jotun Herse - with a few choice magic items
Troll
Lava Warrior
Knight

As you can see there is a hefty power scale fluctuation even in the thug classification. However these guys are not Supercombatants and that is what I am trying to make clear.


SLAYER

A Slayer is a unit that has been cultivated to be powerful enough to wreck conventional armies. This is really a specialized sub-class of supercombatant. The Slayer is built with cost cutting in mind, to make it as cheap as possible and still be able to disperse conventional forces. Slayers are not meant to deal with mages or magic creatures. They are used primarily as an early game expansion aid, and as attack/defense while player nations aren't fielding much magic. During the late game when potent magic is available, Slayers are usually relegated to raiding duty.


Some examples of slayers would be:

Manticore
Astral magic - 6
On entering battle it casts, Body Etheral, Personal Luck, Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, and then attacks.

Heliophagus
Wraith Sword, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Pendent of Luck, Ring of Regeneration


SUPERCOMBATANT

Supercombatants are built in an attempt to walk onto a battlefield alone and clean house versus any opposition. The potency/penetration of the spell Paralyze has made life a bit tough on Supercombatants and players of Dom2 are using more thugs and slayers than they did in Dom1. Still it's fun to use them, and they can still be effective. Just keep in mind that they are very powerful, but not invincible.


An example of a supercombatant would be:

Nataraja
Earth magic - 4
Air magic - 2
Nature magic - 3
Wraith Sword, Faithful, Charcoal Shield, Starshine Skullcap, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Anti-Magic amulet.
On entering battle it casts, Invulnerability, Mist Form, Personal Regeneration, Elemental Fortitude, and then attacks

[apoger]

"HIT N' RUN" GOLEM

The Golem is mindless and has astral skill, making it a prime candidate for the spell Astral Tempest.

The Golem will need +2 astral skill. I usually use a starshine skullcap and a crystal coin, but other items or empowerment will work fine.

Cast Ritual of Returning so your Golem doesn't get hurt. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Place Golem at rear of battlefield.

Teleport into an enemy army (living armies, obviously).

Upon entering combat cast Astral Tempest - Body Ethereal - Personal Luck - Astral Shield - Twist Fate - then "cast spells". Make sure you have at least 4 pearls on the Golem for the castings.

This should get you about 3-7 turns of bLasting versus the enemy army. The more troops in the army the more damage will get done!

As soon as the Golem takes a hit, the Ritual of Returning will send it back to the capital.

Rinse, lather, repeat.


If the enemy has flying troops they may tag the Golem fast and send him home. Avoid that army.
If the enemy has a strong astral mage ready to Magic Duel, it's possible to lose the Golem.
Other than that this is a tactic that is hard to stop, and will make your enemies pull their hair out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[apoger]

SPIDERMAN SPIDERMAN DOES WHATEVER A SPIDER CAN


The Machakan Black Sorcerer is one interesting mage!

Enter combat, cast Summon Earth Power, Invulnerability and Fire Shield, then attack.

As soon as the Black Sorcerer takes a hit, he turns into a hunter spider (pretty big!).
What's even more impressive is that the spider keeps the extra protection and fire shield!

This is more than enough to single handedly beat down weaker independents. Not bad in other circumstances as well.

The Machakan Sorceress can pull a similar but slightly less impressive stunt, but at her lower cost is still well worth the expense.

If your Black Sorcerer comes with a lucky level of astral, might as well add in Body Ethereal and Personal Luck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[apoger]

SUPERCHARGED ABYSIAN WARLOCKS

For this trick you will need 8 astral mages to act as communion slaves. Warlock apprentices will do, but if you find cheaper ones go for it.

You will also need 1+ Warlocks.

Have the 8 slaves cast communion slave.

Have your Warlocks cast; Communion Master, Power of the Spheres, have one cast Light of the Northern Star (or carry a Banner of the North Star).

At this point the Warlocks will have Blood-7 Astral-7 Random-5
If you are willing to cast Hellpower (it horror marks your mages and attracts horrors) you can bring the Warlocks up to Blood-9 Astral-9 Random-7

This is all without magic items or empowerment.

Is it worthwhile to go through the hefty effort to get this effect?
That depends on you games circumstances. Just keep in mind that it's a potential tool in the toolbox.

[apoger]

FLYING DWARVEN THUGS


One tactic that I use extensively in multiplayer is getting small raiding forces behind the front lines and harrassing my enemy.

One of my favorite ways to do this is with "Flying Dwarven Thugs".
There are numerous ways to raid, but I find the sheer absudity of this method to be entertaining.

Play Ulm.

Make Master Smiths.

Arm them with Winged Shoes and a pair of Axes of Sharpness. If possible I also make them a Pendent of Luck. Yes the shoes and pendent take effort to develop. It's worth it.

Fly them into enemy territory against lightly defended provinces.

Upon arrival, have the dwarf cast Summon Earth Power, Invulnerability and Fire Shield. Then dive in for some two axe action! This should be enough to crack the low province defense that most players use.

If you know that the province defense is pumped, add in more dwarves.

For large battles have a squad of these guys in the back, power up, and attack the rear. Very few players anticipate a squad of dangerous flyers from Ulm.


I don't know what it is, but the idea of a super-armored flaming dwarf dropping out of the sky and going to town on surprised defenders is enough to make me smile for hours. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[apoger]

POISON AND THE DEAD

Undead troops and poison generating effects go togeher like peanut butter and chocolate.
After all, the undead are immune to the poison that would normally make life hard on your own living troops.

The basic technique is to clog up the battlefield with the unliving and then expose the enemy to various poison effects.

Most commonly death mages use reanimations and nature mages use vine men/ogres. For those with both skills try manikins/mandragoras.

If playing C'tis place poison slingers behind the undead.

If you have nature mages cast Breath of the Dragon or Poison Cloud.

If you have creatures that exude clouds of poison (hydra/bog beast) then mix them in with the undead near the front.

If you have nature/water mages (Jade Amazons. Sometimes Man, C'tis, Pangaea) then consider casting Foul Vapors. This spell will strike the whole battlefield with poison clousds. Make sure your mages are posion immune first!


This is best used when applied too a large/living enemy army. Delay with the undead, kill with the poison. With a bit of skill/luck this sort of engagement can cause horrific losses to the opponent.

[apoger]

GIRLFRIENDS FROM HELL


Sometimes I find myeslf in a dire situation and have a few death mages to spare. It is during those times that I consider the very risky tactic of using the spell Summon Lammashtas.

Each casting gets you two Lammashtas. They are ethereal, hard to hit, and carry wraith swords. These are some scary women!

The spell description says that they will probably not attack the caster at the start of the battle. This is a load of hooey. They will disembowel your mages first chance they get. Anytime you use this spell it's a suicide mission. Count on it.

If you are just sending in mages, give them one death gem and cast. The girls will slay your mages and then go to work on the enemy. Each Lammashta seems tough enough to kill about 5-20 infantry. A lot depends on the quality of the opposition and if they have magic.

The Lammashtas are not under your control and go back from whence they came at the battles end.

If you can put your mages inside packs of junk troops, it's possible to get a second casting while hoping that the troops will delay the Lammashtas for the turn needed. Possible and hope being the key words here. If you attempt a second casting your death-3 mages will need another gem, and death-2 mages will need two more.

I have tried sending in mages casting Lammashtas at the front of my army with real troops holding in the rear. The idea being that perhaps the girls will become involved with the advancing enemy and soften things up for my troops . I've had about as many disasters as I've had successes with this. Use it at your own risk.

I always keep this tactic in mind when I find "raptor" provinces that produce Harab Seraphs. Since these are flying death-2 mages, I can use them as a fast reaction suicide squad. It's not the cheapest defense (by a longshot) but it's saved my bacon a few times.

[apoger]

FOLLOWING THE LIGHT


Anytime I have many astral mages on the battlefield I always try to have a character holding a Banner of the Northern Star, or I have a mage cast Light of the Northern Star. Either way all my astral mages get an extra point of astral skill.

Extra skill means that astral spells cause less fatigue, and that means more casting. Yummy.

Also this is often important in order to get easy access to better quality spells.
With the "light" in effect:
Astral-1 mages can cast Paralyze
Astral-2 mages can cast Soul Slay
Astral-3 mages can cast Enslave Mind

This also enables Marignons Grand Masters to cast Astral Fires.

[apoger]

FEEL THE BURN

Fire magic in Dom2 is fairly weak. Many of the fun sounding spells just don't hit often, and it's very hard to use fire magic during rain or a storm (which many nations bring to battle). There are very few fire spells that I find worthwhile, however there is one worth writing about... Incinerate!


Why do I like incinerate?
1 - Precision 100
2 - 18 damage
3 - Armor Negating

That's enough to blow away most conventional troops in a shot. It hits and it hurts! That's my kind of spell.

As long as your enemies aren't fire immune, incinerate is a great way to guarantee that you mages hand out a beating.
If your mages are fire-2, have them cast Phoenix Power first in order to bring them up to the skill level needed. In fact always use Phoenix Power as it will lower the fatigue for more skilled mages.
Line up a bunch of fire mages and it's a vertible "Firing Squad".
It's not as flashy as some other spells, but the fact that you're drilling in armor negating damage with precision is a wonderful thing.


Note: Also check out the magic item Rod of the Phoenix. This item allows any commander to cast (you guessed it) incinerate! The 20 fire gem cost seems high, but I assure you that it's a great effect. Don't think of it as a rod, think of it as a sniper rifle. Give it to a low encumberance commander and flame away!

[apoger]

CHILLING

Everything I said about incinerate pretty much goes for the spell Frozen Heart as well.

This is the cold Version of incinerate. It does less damage, however it has less fatigue cost and requires much less skill.

You only need water-1 for frozen heart!

This is a great way to make any water-1 mage very useful.

Playing Atlantis? Those Initiates of the Deep are Frozen Heart casters for a mere 60 gold!

Playing Caelum and your enemy has lightning protection? Show them that you have another way to make them cry.

Hey! Any mage that can cast Frozen Heart can also cast quickness. Why not spread the pain even faster?

Yes getting to Alteration-6 is a pain... but it's worth it.

[apoger]

THE ARCHERS BEST FRIEND


The only offensive fire spell besides incinerate that I really like is Flaming Arrows.

It takes a gem, and researching Enchantment-4 might not be very synergistic with your other needs, however this is a fantastic way to crank up your damage potential.

This makes any archers/crossbows you have into death dealing machines. They'll carve swaths straight through armored enemy ranks.

Your enemies will stare dumbfounded as they mumble "I just got my *** kicked... by shortbow".

If you are playing Abysia, Marignon, Machaka, or Mictlan I suggest that you consider making a research beeline for this spell. Yes, this spell also works on sling bullets and javelins.

Be careful of enemies using storms, as this will ruin your day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[apoger]

SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIENDS


As always I'm on the lookout for techniques that allow me to raid behind enemy lines.
One of my favorite tricks is to send in mages that cast summoning spells. I call these mages "Summons Raiders".

The best Summons Raiders get deep into enemy territory. Usually this is done by spell or by flying. Once in a blue moon I use stealthers.

Some of the classic Summons Raiders are:

Harab Searpahs : Flying in and casting Raise Skeletons
High Seraphs : Flying in (or Cloud Trapezing) and summoning Air Elementals
Demonbred : Flying in and summoning Fire Elementals
Arch Theurgs : Teleporting in (or Cloud Trapezing) and summoning Air Elementals
Crones : Cloud Trapeze in and summoning Air Elementals and/or casting Howl

This is hardly a comprehesive list. Many mages that have astral-2 can be given a Starshine Skull cap for teleporting, and any mage that can do summons can be given winged boots for flight.

If you expect missile fire from the troops you are engaging, make sure your closest mage can take an arrow (or two) or you risk a rout.

Most summonings are harder in Dom2 than in Dom1, but this method of fast land grabbing is still worthwhile even if it costs gems and endangers mages. Polish up this technique and you'll be deadly in multiplayer.

[apoger]

DEMONBREEDING


Abysia has hard choices to make in choosing it's magic paths. One of the paths that I am fond of utilizes the Demonbred mages.

First play Abysia in whatever way you find to be best for your style.
Add in the Demonbred strategy as lightly or as heavily as you feel the game warrents.

Make 5-10 Warlock Apprentices.
Have them do your research. First do whatever needs to be researched to help your god. Then research any combat spells you intend to use, if any. Then research blood to level 3.

Once you have done the research send the blood mages out to 7-12K population provinces. Lower the taxes to 0% and start hunting for blood slaves. Only place about 5 hunters per province. If unrest gets out of hand, either patrol the province with troops, or rotate the hunters to a fresh province (crop rotation). As long as unrest is low, the blood income should be pretty good.

If you have the gold, make labs in the hunting provinces for easy slave pooling. If you can't afford labs, then make a scout (or three) and have them run around moving the slaves.

Always consider making ordinary scouts and adding them to the blood hunt. They don't do very well, but they are dirt cheap and will provide a reasonable amount of slaves considering the cost.


From this point on make Demonbred mages at the capital.

The Demonbred have the correct skill to cast Bind Devil. They also have the command skill to lead devils, and can fly. This makes them perfect devil squad leaders.

Have the Demonbred start binding devils. If you run dry on slaves have them aid in the hunt.

Devil production should ramp up fairly fast. There is however a few turns where you have some mages, some demonbred, some devils, and you wonder why exactly are you doing this. After a while (about the time you are making 7-10 devils per turn) you will suddenly find that you have some serious devil power.

At this point much will depend on the circumstances of the game. If nothing pressing is happening you can continue building up demonbred and devils. If it's time to fight, send out some demonbred leading packs of devils.

If you have been reading these strategies you will have already seen that I am an advocate of raiding my enemies. Devil squads are awesome raiders. Once production gets going you will be able to send out a demonbred with 10+ devils every turn. Shotgun these squads all over your enemies territory. Then concentrate them for big fights and fort assaults. The mobility and strike power is very impressive.

Many players out there will compare this with other blood strategies, and rightly so.
The Devil Squad strategy is similar to the summoning of Hordes from Hell. I find the Hordes are a bit slower to get started and are a bit weaker. On the other hand the Hordes can be summoned anywhere. Plus they have greater numbers, which has benefits.

This strategy can also be compared to pumping out devils via the creation of Soul Contracts (as I'll discuss shortly). The contract route is a better investment over the long haul, but is weak at the start. The Devil Squad strategy provides firepower early, but is not a growing investment. Even though both techniques involve pumping out devils, they are effectively different paths.

One of the major distictions of the Devil Squad strategy is that the Demonbred act as a fast reaction force while the blood machine is ramping up. Remember the Demonbred fly, have slaves, and devils. If there is any trouble they can fly right out with whatever devils you have. The Demonbred can be very effective on the battlefield by casting Summon Imp. If you have done the research they may also be able to summon fire elementals or cast incinerate.

The Demonbred are expensive mages, however they are very flexible and mobile. The Devil Squads become explosive in the mid game. It's not uncommon for me to lash out with 5-15 squads at once. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I not saying this is an ultimate strategy, but it is a strong one that can get good results. Try it.

Frankly, I just love flying the devils around.

[apoger]

DEVILS O' RAMA


For everyone else that wants devils but who don't get Demonbred mages... there is my old friend the Soul Contract.

Do whatever blood hunting that works for your nation.

You will need a blood-5 mage and Construction-2 to make Soul Contracts.
It is a cursed item and it will horror mark the character you give it to.
Your goal is to get at least one if not more contacts made per turn.

The contracts produce one devil every turn.
Each contract costs 80 blood slaves.
Devils have a summoning cost of 7 slaves, so effectively it takes 11 turns for the contract to "pay off". After that it is effectively an income of 7 slaves per turn (in the form of a devil). It takes a while for the production to really take off. During this wait time you will have spent resource and won't have reaped benefits. This is the dangerous time for the Soul Contract strategy. It's a bit of a long term investment. If you can afford the time to ramp up for the payoff it is awesome. If you need power fast, convert your slaves into something that will get you power faster. Consider things with care when making long term plans.

Also keep in mind that you must have blood or death mages to lead the devils. This can be difficult for some nations to cultivate.

On the other hand, if you do manage to crank out a bunch of contracts and have the leadership... you will have a never ending stream of very potent troops. That can't be bad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

You might consider forging a Dwarven Hammer. This will allow you to make the contracts at a reduced cost. Don't ask me how a hammer helps make a blood soaked piece of parchment. It just does. Don't go crazy trying to get a hammer if it's hard for your nation. It's more important to expand your economy and work the blood magic. But if you can squeeze it in... get one.

Strangely Ulm has a major advantage when working this strategy. The master smiths start with a forge bonus, and can increase it further with a dwarven hammer.

Also consider that many players like using the Prince of Death pretender with Ulm. A POD with some Ulmish armor can be used as an early game Thug. The POD also is a flyer and can lead many devils. A shard of syngery for Ulm? You be the judge.

[apoger]

THE PERFECT STORM


This is one of the most abusive combo's in the game. It takes a bit of effort but it's worth it for the brutal effect.

Research Evocation-6 and Enchantment-4.

Locate and enemy army that you want dead...

Take two Air-3 mages.
Give one 3 air gems and the other 2.
Give both rings of Tamed Lightning.

Cloud Trapeze the mages to the enemy army. They arrive in the magic phase before the army can move.

Mage 1 casts Wrathful Skies.
Mage 2 casts Storm.

With no other nonsense this will often expose the enemy army to 3-4 turns of armor negating lightning strikes. The mages will eventually get smacked, but the damage done will be tremendous.

Afraid of flyers getting to the mages before Storms goes off?
Then get rid of mage 2. Research Construction-4 and make a Staff of Storms.
Send in one mage with the SOS and 3 gems (you can get away with 2 sometimes, but don't risk it).
Have that mage cast Wrathful Skies (then mistform and mirror image if you can).

What's that you say? Don't want to lose mages at all? Ok, just send in more air mages and have them cast air elementals. The air elementals will clog the enemy advance and will expose them to further rounds of lightning strikes.

Unless the enemy army can lightning proof itself, this technique will savage them.


If you don't have air-3 mages you can take a Titan pretender with a bunch of air skill. Pile on some magic items to beef the Titan up into a serious combat threat. Trapeze, Storm, Wrath, [defensive spells], and then either fight or cast orb lightnings. The Titan starts lightning proof, and can easily be cultivated into a instant army buster.


During the days of Dom1 I made quite a fuss about this combo being unfair, and I asked Illwinter to increase costs to fix it. Nothing has changed. I beg you guys to limit the distance on cloud trapeze, or make the SOS unique, and definitely raise the cost of wrathful skies! It's really not fun to be on the recieving end of this technique. Not at all...


PS- How long did you think I could go without complaining about something? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[apoger]

ATTACK OF THE CRONES


This is an expansion of the "Perfect Storm" from the Last post.

Play the nation of Man, and make Crone mages.

Add Snake Rings to all mages.

Wait for a Crone that comes with water skill.

Reserach Enchantment-5.

Do the attack just like "The Perfect Storm" from the Last post.

On entering battle send the the water crone also, and have her cast Foul Vapors.

Now the enemy will have to deal with a battlefield full of poison on top of the lightning.

What do you think the odds are that your enemy will be immune to both?
Probably pretty low.

[apoger]

LIZARDS GONE WILD!


Like C'tis? So do I.

Make lots of Elite Warriors and beat down some enemies.

As you expand research Alteration-6, Enchantment-6, and Thumaturgy-5.
Yes that's mucho magic, but it really sets you up nice.

Make 8+ Shaman (cheap, and make good researchers in a magic dominion).

Upon starting a battle;
Have 4 Shaman cast Communion Slave.
Have 4+ Shaman cast Communion Master.
Now the masters have Nature-3 and Astral-3 (not bad for cheapie lizards!).
Have the masters cast Growing Fury (Lizards Go Wild!) and Mass Protection (Wild Lizards need extra protection).
Have one master cast Relief x5.
Any extra masters can cast Paralyze or Soul Slay.

If you add in many extra masters, make sure you add in another slave (or two) and more Relief casters. Put on an extra Relief caster if fighting in the cold.

The Communion/Relief combo will keep the mages casting and the troops fighting (even in the cold). The beserk/protected warriors will kick butt, and the astral spells can take care of bigger opponents.


Don't like C'tis? You can do the same stunt with the Seithkona of Jotunhiem (Giants Gone wild! Goblins Gone Wild!). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

How about a comment on
THIEVES?

Blood magic 2 allows for Hellbind Heart. Other spells along the same line are possible.

Spells which summon commanders to you exist such as Wind Ride. Or giving the Black Heart to sneaky mages so they can become assassins.

You steal an enemy commander, get commanders you wouldnt normally have access to, get equip that the other guy spent gems on, and you leave large chunks of his army leaderless. Leaderless armys will rout from things like Call of the Wild or Call of the Winds, or even just a lone scout (a really funny sight)

If an assassin uses such a spell the newly converted commander will then attack his own troops in a fresh battle following the successful "assassination". Rinse-and-repeat until you snag the Last commander in a province and you will own that province no matter how large an army was there when the assassin walked in. Pick up some new blood slaves and sneak away to the next target.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
DEVILS O' RAMA

For everyone else that wants devils but who don't get Demonbred mages...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're writing Diabolists and Goetic Masters off too easily. Give them flying boots and you can use exactly the same tactic with Marignon/Diabolical Faith, except you can add some cheap Harlequins to the mix too.

An incentive to pick a Pretender with some air magic on your pretender, besides finding air sites and forging boots of flying, is the dreaded xbows/Flaming Arrows/Wind Guide combo.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
LIZARDS GONE WILD!<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've found Falchioneers to be also effective with that kind of berserk strategies, and they're cheaper, do more damage (7+7 vs 8+3), and have better prot and defense. On the minus side, Falchioneers are supposed to be ambidextrous, but their attack rating is only 8x2 with falchions.

[apoger]

>DEVILS O' RAMA

>>You're writing Diabolists and Goetic Masters off too easily. Give them flying boots and you can use exactly the same tactic with Marignon/Diabolical Faith, except you can add some cheap Harlequins to the mix too.


I am not a fan of the Goetic Masters.

Marignon [Diabolic Faith] requires Heat +1 and Turmoil +1, which is a mighty heavy economic hit.

The Goetic Masters require those Winged Shoes to fly, and that means they aren't nearly as available as a fast response to whatever you may need responding to.

Also the Goetic Masters can only command 10 Devils, while the Demonbred can command 35. This makes a huge difference.

If I was playing Marignon [Diabolic Faith] I would probably stick with using Hordes from Hell and skip on devils.

[apoger]

>LIZARDS GONE WILD!
>>I've found Falchioneers to be also effective

The Falchioneers are good troops, but I have found the Elite Warriors to be better even at the higher gold cost.

#1 The trident is a length 4 weapon, which will provide extra defense in the form of repels much more often than the length 2 falchion.

#2 They have a 12 morale as opposed to the flachioneers 10. That's a huge difference, particularly for C'tis, who has no other troops with good morale.

#3 The higher attack skill is absolutely critical. In practice I find that the Elite Warriors simply deal damage on a much more consistent basis.

#4 The lower resource cost means that I can generate more troops. When playing C'tis I often find that numbers are the key to victory, and the production limitations are often a tighter constraint than the gold costs.

#5 I have tried games using both troops, and while this is certainly nothing more than anecdotal evidence, I have found that the Elite Warriors appear to out perform the Falchioneers in practice.


On the other hand I'm open to input on potential ways that the falchioneers may be abused. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ January 11, 2004, 17:49: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Windreaper]

Doh, what's the point of morale since your army is going berserk anywy. Besides, Mass Protection is most useful to guys with low natural prot and plenty of armor on top of that (heh, pan satyrs go up to prot 19 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ). Actually neither of the two are really armor kings and have pretty good natural prot too, but you're forgetting the fact that berserking gives a nice boost to the falchioneers' attack skill. I'd thus go for two high strength attacks but as with most of the stuff in the game it's a matter of preference.

As for those army bLasting strategies. I usually try to have quick response fliers (harpies, spring hawks, even ordinary hawks will do) with my armies to counter teleporting mages. Defender gets the first turn so the attacking mages are swarmed right from the very first combat round. Even if they manage to survive the harpy/whatever attack the combat AI tends to make their personal survival a preference thus leading into spells like shock wave/melee attacks :/. In other words, I wouldn't be sending in anyone smaller than a golem using teleport/cloud trapeze as they don't allow for a bodyguard.

The poison strategy, however, is very effective. Pangaea, Man, Miasma C'tis and Serpent cult Pythium can all easily pull it off. Just research conj 3, const 2, alteration 1, ench 5 (or alternatively evocation 4/5 for the poison spells, I prefer enchantment since it takes you near Relief, too). Have a good screen of vine ogres and cast quickness, poison resistance, foul vapors, (cast spells/whatever) and enjoy. Actually, vine ogres are also fantastic at dealing with illithids and such if you include some cheap fodder for the illithids to bLast at. Otoh their mr of 5 gets them owned by all kinds of control spells so this is naturally not an endgame strategy.

Other than that, I agree with most of the stuff you say, especially concerning incinerate (if I go for evocation it's usually for spells like stream of life/nether darts for nations like jotunheim or anyone with access to lamia queens - cast eagle eyes and bLast away w/ nethers). Actually, alteration and enchantment are pretty high on my research list every time (Relief, Mass Protection, Mass Regeneration, Battle Fortune, Doom etc...)

[Teleolurian]

Hrm. I've been building falchioneers all this time because of the 2xFalchion and the lower cost. Thanks Alex, maybe I should reconsider my entire C'tis strategy.

Placing your poison units behind your undead is fun. Especially when you've got a Saurolich + Amulets of Vengeance + (other fun explodeys) up front. Thematically, I feel that the commander of the lizardmen should stand in front of his rapacious hordes, gesturing appropriately as they swarm past him. He's both immortal and boomy, so what can it hurt? Maybe I should get him some winged boots.

This thread is great! Keep it going!

[ January 11, 2004, 17:41: Message edited by: Teleolurian ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
I am not a fan of the Goetic Masters.

Marignon [Diabolic Faith] requires Heat +1 and Turmoil +1, which is a mighty heavy economic hit.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh so it's not really Gothic Masters you dislike, but the Diabolical Faith theme.

I fully agree with you on the econ concerns but it's completely besides the point. The theme exists and can be played and should be played. And if you don't use Goetic Masters when you play Diabolical Faith I'd say you're looking for trouble.

The Goetic Masters require those Winged Shoes to fly, and that means they aren't nearly as available as a fast response to whatever you may need responding to.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If by fast you mean 'reaction time', you just have to have a pair of boots ready, and the problem disappears. If you mean 'early in the game', even Abysia will have to struggle to summon 35 Devils before turn 20 so the limited undead leadership isn't really a concern. And Marignon can push for Construction 4 for the boots while summoning Harlequins (no Blood research needed). So the need for a Constr-4 item is far from enough to invalidate the Devil-o-Rama strategy for Marignon/DF. And it still can be used reasonably fast using Harlequins. 10 Harlequins won't achieve anything by themselves, but once you reach Blood 3 you have amassed a small force that can be added to your newly summoned Devils, while Abysia will have to spent 35 mage-turns after completing Blood 3.

Also the Goetic Masters can only command 10 Devils, while the Demonbred can command 35. This makes a huge difference.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not in my book. When 10 Devils is enough, then 10 Devils is enough. When it's not, Goetic Masters that come with a random in Blood or Death can lead 15 or 30 Devils, and that should be enough. Other Goethic Masters can lead Devils and Wyverns if your air pretender was lucky finding sites. Or you can find Harab Seraphs or death independent mages to lead your Devils. The possibilities are numerous.

If I was playing Marignon [Diabolic Faith] I would probably stick with using Hordes from Hell and skip on devils.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Even if you notice an Harab Seraph province close to your capital? What's changed then? You've got the Devils (and Harlequins if you want your strike force faster), the flying death mage to lead them, and the cheap blood harvesters. If it works for Abysia, it has to work for Marignon.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
The Falchioneers are good troops, but I have found the Elite Warriors to be better even at the higher gold cost.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agree, especially after Mass Protection - but when you're gold limited with resource aplenty, as is often the case even with all econ scales maxed, the cheaper cost of the Falchioneers or Swamp Guards comes handy.

#1 The trident is a length 4 weapon, which will provide extra defense in the form of repels much more often than the length 2 falchion.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my tests the trident's length didn't prevent the EW to be hit as often as the Falchioneers, because of their worse defence. And anyway, I count on my Falchioneers being repelled to activate their berserk rage, I usually consider shorter weapons to be well suited to berserkers.

#2 They have a 12 morale as opposed to the flachioneers 10. That's a huge difference, particularly for C'tis, who has no other troops with good morale.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a huge difference _early_, that's why I count on EWs more. But I have yet to see a squad of Falchioneers under Touch of Madness or Growing Fury rout. And I always have berserk support for them, I stick to EWs if I can't get that support.

#3 The higher attack skill is absolutely critical. In practice I find that the Elite Warriors simply deal damage on a much more consistent basis.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The low attack rating is indeed my only real concern with Falchioneers. I agree in most cases EWs gets the edge when it comes to dealing damage. I've found Falchioneers to be superior vs Jotun spearmen, Minotaurs or Lava Warriors though - typically big targets with low def.

#4 The lower resource cost means that I can generate more troops. When playing C'tis I often find that numbers are the key to victory, and the production limitations are often a tighter constraint than the gold costs.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But you can really only amass numbers of EWs if you neglect recruiting mages, that's an efficient strategy but it has its drawbacks. If you want to recruit a Shaman or Sauromancer every turn or close, gold runs low fast. But OTOH you can use Falchioneers with Touch of Madness fairly early, and Falchioneers are better survivors than EWs. Using that approach works quite well after after an initial Javelin/EW rush.

#5 I have tried games using both troops, and while this is certainly nothing more than anecdotal evidence, I have found that the Elite Warriors appear to out perform the Falchioneers in practice.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on what you're up against, or even the game settings. Against some targets, slightly smaller numbers of berserked Falchioneers will do the job as well as EWs, with less casualties. EWs work better vs high defense troops, with few or no missile support. At least that's my experience.

On the other hand I'm open to input on potential ways that the falchioneers may be abused. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, berserking them vs an army of shortbows is the only one I can think of. I like to use Einheres vs shortbows, and crazed Falchioneers aren't very different.

[Truper]

Wonderful stuff Alex. Some things you mentioned I'd thought of, but others, like Flying Dwarven Thugs, I'd never have come up with in a million years. Just *reading* about those guys put a smile on my face http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Wauthan]

Great fun to read and really interesting ideas. You sure seem to know this game well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Sadly I have little to contribute myself but I've noticed two oddities when playing against some friends.

THE LEFT HAND OF AN EMPEROR HOLDS THE DAGGER UNSEEN

Most people seem to become blinded by the idea of fielding enormous armies. Rows upon rows of warriors in shining armour. Their swords held high in honor of their lord, gleaming in the sun like a bountiful harvest of steel. The strength of an empire made physical form. Impressive yes?

It would be well worth keeping that nice sight intact would it not? Mountains of gold spent. Years of preparation. So why risk it when you do not have to?

Cut of the head and the body dies, as the saying goes. Ten assassins can do more harm than army one thousand strong. Fifty assassins can change the course of the war entirely. One hundred assassins and your enemies will throw themselves at your feet, begging for mercy from your unseen might.

Creating an assassin "guild" in a province that is out of the way and mostly worthless is always a good investment. Add a mage with no other buisness then the steady construction of cheap but dangerous tools like Dragon Helms, Skull Talismans or Snake Rings. Assassins are cheap when compared to most commanders and expendable. It's a lot of micromanagement at times but five Groups of ten assassins can create an endless migraine for your opponent and tie up a lot of resources that would otherwise be used against you.

SUMMONED UNITS DON'T HAVE UNIONS

What's better than a loyal soldier ready to give up his life for your empire? One that doesn't ask for a salary. Summoned units, save Trolls who are all members the Bridge Squatters Union, don't have a gold upkeep. The Monthly Ritual command is not to be ignored. Having a mobile provincial defence is quite worth it's cost in gems. And some summons even summon their own units! Remember that the next time you think about purchasing that new regiment of shiny knights.

[apoger]

EVERYONE LOVES DRAGONS


In Dom1 Dragon pretenders were mediocre at best. It came a great (and welcome) surprise that they are dramatically better in Dom2. Part of this is becuase they now keep all but 2 levels of magic skill while in dragon form, and part is due to the new bless effects.

Even without improvement the dragons are "Thugs". They can be sent into many independent provinces alone and can beat down the locals. This does risk afflictions, but it's great for getting a fast start on the game.

As for my thoughts on the specific dragons;


RED DRAGON

Adding fire skill adds attack strength to it's melee ability, making this dragin even more thuggy than the others.

Fast research to Enchantment-1 provides the red dragon with Fire Shield, which further improves its early game ability.

Fire-9 provides the excellent bless effects of +3 attack and flaming weapons. This is a very synergistic effect (hit more, and hit harder) and is my favorite blessing.

For late game insanity have the red dragon with fire-9 (7 in dragon form) engage enemy armies and have it cast Heat from Hell and Fire Storm. You'll need a bunch of gems for the castings, but it's possible to incinerate whole armies this way.


BLUE DRAGON

Early research provides Quickness and Breath of Winter, which make the dragon much more formidable.

Water-9 provides the bless effect of +4 defense and "50% quickness". Not bad at all.

In the midgame the spell Grip of Winter might help deal with large forces. This is not as dangerous as the red dragon, but the reserach will be done ages earlier.


GREEN DRAGON

Reasonable research provides Personal Regeneration and Elemental Fortitude. Not bad, but not as thuggy as the other dragons.

Nature-9 provides the bless effect of Beserk +3 and Regeneration. This is an awsome set of effects and is well worth considering.

In fact if you are looking for a low cost pretender solution taking Nature-4 is a good way to go. This keeps the dragon cheap, and provides Beserk +1, which is a major boon for the sacred troops since it solves morale issues.

There are many late game nature spells that are nice, but most involve boosting troops rather than allowing the dragon extra power. That's not a bad thing, but nature mages aren't hard to find and I expect more from the pretender.

The only way to stretch the green dragon in the late game is to get it a level of water skill. That way it can cast Foul Vapors at the start of a battle.

While the green dragon lacks some of the personal power of the other two, it's ability to augment troops should be kept in mind.

[ January 12, 2004, 19:15: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Saber Cherry]

I added Ctis's normal units and ran a little test. This is what I got:

Deathmatch Power Ratings for 10000 rounds:

CT Militia ------------------ Wins: 7.1% Power: 109 Overall: 223
CT Light Inf ---------------- Wins: 35.7% Power: 636 Overall: 692
CT City Guard --------------- Wins: 59.8% Power: 1341 Overall: 1243
CT Heavy Inf ---------------- Wins: 67.3% Power: 1703 Overall: 1577
CT Falchioneer -------------- Wins: 47.8% Power: 936 Overall: 913
CT Slave Warrior ------------ Wins: 38.9% Power: 708 Overall: 732
CT Elite Warrior ------------ Wins: 57.3% Power: 1243 Overall: 1116
CT Runner ------------------- Wins: 27.8% Power: 471 Overall: 541
CT Swamp Guard -------------- Wins: 81.5% Power: 3011 Overall: 2275
CT Serpent Dancer ----------- Wins: 76.2% Power: 2359 Overall: 1657
CT Sacred Serpent ----------- Wins: 50.6% Power: 1019 Overall: 1000

Average --------------------- Wins: 49.9% Power: 1230 Overall: 1088
Median ---------------------- Wins: 50.6% Power: 1019 Overall: 1000
...........

Gauntlet Power Ratings for 10000 rounds:

CT Militia ------------------ Wins: 21.8% Power: 358 Overall: 560
CT Light Inf ---------------- Wins: 44.2% Power: 837 Overall: 913
CT City Guard --------------- Wins: 56.2% Power: 1203 Overall: 1134
CT Heavy Inf ---------------- Wins: 59.4% Power: 1326 Overall: 1201
CT Falchioneer -------------- Wins: 49.2% Power: 977 Overall: 1000
CT Slave Warrior ------------ Wins: 45.4% Power: 870 Overall: 933
CT Elite Warrior ------------ Wins: 55.9% Power: 1193 Overall: 1133
CT Runner ------------------- Wins: 38.0% Power: 687 Overall: 809
CT Swamp Guard -------------- Wins: 66.0% Power: 1629 Overall: 1354
CT Serpent Dancer ----------- Wins: 66.4% Power: 1653 Overall: 1378
CT Sacred Serpent ----------- Wins: 47.4% Power: 925 Overall: 972

Average --------------------- Wins: 50.0% Power: 1059 Overall: 1035
Median ---------------------- Wins: 49.2% Power: 977 Overall: 1000


As far as I can tell, Falchioneers are simply no darn good because their ambidextrity was set too low - I'd give them 3, minimum. They don't hit enough.

I also added hit rate, evade rate, and repel rate statistics. For example:


'CT Elite Warrior' versus 'CT Falchioneer' in 40000 bouts.

~ Attacker's Deathmatch Statistics ~

Score: ---------------------- 576
Wins: ----------------------- 57.68%
Losses: --------------------- 42.33%
Kills per battle: ----------- .58
Kills per round: ------------ .32
Deaths per battle: ---------- .43
Life expectancy (rounds): --- 3.80
Life expectancy (battles): -- 2.09
Avg. Rounds Elapsed: -------- 1.82
Avg. Rounds to Win: --------- 1.86
Avg. Rounds to Lose: -------- 1.77
Hit Rate: ------------------- 66.97%
Evade Rate: ----------------- 41.75%
Repel Rate: ----------------- 41.19%
Damage done per swing: ------ 3.81
Damage done per hit: -------- 5.69
Damage taken per hit: ------- 8.26
Hit damage taken per life: -- 22.38
Total damage taken per life: 22.91

The repel rate people had it right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif 41% repels is pretty severe. In the reverse case (not shown), the Falchioneer gets a 7% repel rate because of his lousy attack, and because the Elite Warrior has much higher morale. Repels and long weapons are very important to Ctis because of their low morale.

These stats are only for Ctis against Ctis, and thus a bit misleading. But I don't think Falchioneers hold up well to Swamp Guard / City Guard / Elites.

Sacred Serpents, on the other hand, are bad, bad bad. Except for the standard - I'd only use them for morale. I think they should be given poison immunity... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Regarding the usefulness of 10 devils -

They don't rout. The only time I had trouble with Devils in Doms I was when they got hit by Control Dead, and that doesn't affect Devils anymore. In Dom II I have not used them yet (harder to get into blood) but the sim indicates they are worth 7 heavy infantry... and that's without the heat effect. A squad of 10 devils should annihilate most standing armies... In Doms I, I even liked to use them against Ermor, since Banishment doesn't bother them much, so they were safe from friendly fire.

[ January 12, 2004, 05:39: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Windreaper]

I think that pretty much anyone knows that Elite Warriors/Swamp Guard are superior to other C'tis infantry (especially falchioneers who pretty much suck unboosted, imo). But what we are discussing is Alex's Growing Fury -scenario. So, in other words both parties would be berserking so mrl and repelling wouldn't be _such_ big issues plus the falchioneers would get the needed boost to their attack skill. Considering that they're cheaper goldwise I'd really appreciate if someone ran the simulation with these changes.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Windreaper:
But what we are discussing is Alex's Growing Fury -scenario. So, in other words both parties would be berserking so mrl and repelling wouldn't be _such_ big issues plus the falchioneers would get the needed boost to their attack skill.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm... morale changes. Attack does not, since magical berserks give berserk level 0. Thus, they would no longer be repelled, but they'd still miss a lot.

I reran it with morale maxxed for all units:

Deathmatch Power Ratings for 10000 rounds:

CT Militia ------------------ Wins: 6.4% Power: 99 Overall: 191
CT Light Inf ---------------- Wins: 32.7% Power: 570 Overall: 588
CT City Guard --------------- Wins: 56.4% Power: 1209 Overall: 1080
CT Heavy Inf ---------------- Wins: 64.4% Power: 1549 Overall: 1341
CT Falchioneer -------------- Wins: 54.0% Power: 1125 Overall: 987
CT Slave Warrior ------------ Wins: 37.3% Power: 671 Overall: 652
CT Elite Warrior ------------ Wins: 55.2% Power: 1166 Overall: 1000
CT Runner ------------------- Wins: 27.4% Power: 463 Overall: 494
CT Swamp Guard -------------- Wins: 87.7% Power: 4421 Overall: 2947
CT Serpent Dancer ----------- Wins: 73.5% Power: 2120 Overall: 1461
CT Sacred Serpent ----------- Wins: 55.1% Power: 1164 Overall: 1045

Average --------------------- Wins: 50.0% Power: 1323 Overall: 1071
Median ---------------------- Wins: 55.1% Power: 1164 Overall: 1000
...........

Gauntlet Power Ratings for 10000 rounds:

CT Militia ------------------ Wins: 20.6% Power: 337 Overall: 506
CT Light Inf ---------------- Wins: 42.5% Power: 794 Overall: 828
CT City Guard --------------- Wins: 54.9% Power: 1157 Overall: 1039
CT Heavy Inf ---------------- Wins: 58.5% Power: 1289 Overall: 1107
CT Falchioneer -------------- Wins: 52.8% Power: 1087 Overall: 1000
CT Slave Warrior ------------ Wins: 43.8% Power: 827 Overall: 848
CT Elite Warrior ------------ Wins: 54.7% Power: 1150 Overall: 1040
CT Runner ------------------- Wins: 37.4% Power: 672 Overall: 747
CT Swamp Guard -------------- Wins: 70.2% Power: 1876 Overall: 1386
CT Serpent Dancer ----------- Wins: 64.8% Power: 1570 Overall: 1254
CT Sacred Serpent ----------- Wins: 49.9% Power: 997 Overall: 952

Average --------------------- Wins: 49.9% Power: 1068 Overall: 973
Median ---------------------- Wins: 52.8% Power: 1087 Overall: 1000

Not much different - both Falchion units improve a bit. Spear and Trident units drop slightly. But still, City Guard beats Elite Warriors and Falchioneers, plus is more durable (prot=14) and arrow-resistant (shield). And cheaper in gold then either of them (midway in resources).

Here's the new 1-on-1:

'CT Elite Warrior' versus 'CT Falchioneer' in 40000 bouts.

~ Attacker's Deathmatch Statistics ~

Score: ---------------------- 468
Wins: ----------------------- 46.86%
Losses: --------------------- 53.15%
Kills per battle: ----------- .47
Kills per round: ------------ .31
Deaths per battle: ---------- .54
Life expectancy (rounds): --- 2.44
Life expectancy (battles): -- 1.57
Avg. Rounds Elapsed: -------- 1.57
Avg. Rounds to Win: --------- 1.58
Avg. Rounds to Lose: -------- 1.55
Hit Rate: ------------------- 66.63%
Evade Rate: ----------------- 40.98%
Damage done per swing: ------ 3.66
Damage done per hit: -------- 5.49
Damage taken per hit: ------- 8.26
Hit damage taken per life: -- 20.98
Total damage taken per life: 21.48

Note that statistics are not shown if they are 0% (in this case, repels, ties, timeouts, and poison deaths).

[Humer]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
'CT Elite Warrior' versus 'CT Falchioneer' in 40000 bouts. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hm, who hit who first? I.e. Did the EW or F get her attacks in first? There's a good probability that this means game'n'match in these kind of statistics.

Can the tests be run like F vs. EW?

- Humer

[Saber Cherry]

Actually, I have it flip a coin before each battle to see who goes first. With an average battle Lasting 1.57 rounds, going first is very important=) This way each goes first about half the time. In a real (Dominions) battle you never know who will get the first hit.

In other words, the results are always symmetric, though some results (like repel rate) only apply to the attacker, and you have to run the reverse battle for it to show up. But win% becomes lose%, and hit% becomes evade%, etc.

[ January 12, 2004, 08:12: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

I'm pretty surprised you didn't throw in the "Way too many skeletons" for the C'tis.

Since Sauromancers have 1 Nature, 3 Death, 1 Random they can chain summon undead. You can even have 1 use relief with a nature stick and the random in Nature. If you don't have your Communion lizards ready.

Or the Eagle Eye, Shadow Bolt which hoses everything but undead in a bad way, especially SCs.

Or the ever fun Rigor Mortis/Relief fest.

C'tis has alot of goodies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[apoger]

>I'm pretty surprised you didn't throw in the "Way too many skeletons" for the C'tis.

>C'tis has alot of goodies.


Heh, I'll get to it. I have about 200 more topics to get to eventually. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[apoger]

>But still, City Guard beats Elite Warriors and Falchioneers, plus is more durable (prot=14) and arrow-resistant (shield). And cheaper in gold then either of them (midway in resources).


This is why you must be careful with the combat program. The City Guard really isn't a very good unit in practice.

#1 Their weapon doesn't do enough damage versus heavy armor, which many players will choose.

#2 The 9 morale is a disaster until you have Growing Fury.

Most players would be better off massing C'tis light infantry, which look horrible under the stats, but have javalins and have an easier time with morale do to large numbers (from low production costs).

[Nagot Gick Fel]

A SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT (was: THE REAL WRATHFUL SKIES)

Vanjarls have godly defence and a builtin Mirror Image, and thus are rarely hit. You can use that feature to your advantage to use an effect similar to Wrathful Skies, except this one kills things much faster if you have half a dozen Vanjarls in the battle. And you only need to research Evocation 2 to use it - for Shock Wave, a close-range (therefore high precision) AoE armor-negating spell that can kill a fair number of troops each round.

Script your Vanjarls like this:
(Resist Lightning)(attack one turn)(Shock Wave)x3(cast spells)

If you have researched Alteration 3 you can insert (Mistform) at the beginning of the list, and don't forget (Air Shield) if you see missilemen.

If you have researched Construction 4, you can forge a Staff of Storms and use the cheaper Vanherses instead, just remember to start with (Summon Storm Power). Or you can have a Vanjarl to cast the Storm spell.

Also, remember both Vanjarls and Vanherses are sacred, so always have one bless the others, it will at least boost their morale. If your god provides bless effects, then all the better - although nature blessing doesn't really fit in that strategy.

A pack on Vanjarls/herses sneaking near your border can setup deadly ambushes for approaching enemy armies. All Vans have a strategic move of 3 and thus can react to unexpected threats in very short time.

Even Vanjarls aren't invulnerable, so a pack of Vanjarls/herses operating deep in enemy territory may be lost if any of them is slain. So it's always a good idea to have an extra Vanjarl or 2 sneaking nearby to claim lightly defended provinces at the same moment your main group attacks, so if things go bad your Vanjarls/herses have a place to retreat to. Or use Cloud Trapeze once you learned it.

Giving Main gauches to your Vanjarls/herses will improve their defense to stratospheric levels, and high defense is a key component for this strat to work. Vanjarls are expensive, and Main gauches are cheap, so build some.

Once you learn Orb Lightning, you can have Vanjarls with MGoPs use the Shock Wave routine, while unequipped Vanherses fire Orb Lighnings from behind. Once you learn Wrathful Skies, use it for even more damage.

A few Vanjarls/herses can wreak a lot of havoc with the low-level Shock Wave, so don't be afraid to hunt down big armies and don't lose time with the small fry.

[ January 12, 2004, 16:16: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[apoger]

>THE REAL WRATHFUL SKIES

This is an outstanding way to use Vanjarls as thugs.

However the title is somewhat misleading, this isn't a really a replacement for Wrathful Skies.

[mr.white]

I really like Arch devils. They can fly straight out of the box. They do pretty well in regular combat if you give them the usual protective gear like Robe of Shadows, luck item etc. But what makes them great is that they are tough units able to cast Flame Eruption and not die the next turn. That spell can really rack up the kills against regular units.

The research cost is high(Blood 6, Construction at least 4, Evocation 6) but not insane.

Haven't tried it in a serious game, but I think it's worth a shot.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
>THE REAL WRATHFUL SKIES

...the title is somewhat misleading, this isn't a really a replacement for Wrathful Skies. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree, but English isn't my native language and you're way better than me to find cute titles. Just think of one and I'll edit the post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Truper]

Might I suggest... A SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT

[apoger]

Originally posted by Truper:
Might I suggest... A SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Outstanding! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Wauthan]

A shocking development eh? I thought that since they are Vanir and oughto be the Last once who remember the asir it should be called...

REMEMBRANCE OF THORS HAMMER! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Very interesting tactics by the way. Now why didn't I think of that? Huff! I'm too lazy for this game.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

TOO MUCH MAGIC DOWNWARD SPIRAL OF NO RETURN (edit: new title) (edited again)

This is really an endgame trick as it relies on a high-level spell, and is best used if you have access to many other high-level spells. It is also extremely expensive to setup (both in gems and items, which also cost gems) but when you can make it work it can lead to really hilarious results. Plus it rarely works twice, so it's not very useful as a workable strategy - but as I said, it's lots of fun and you should try it at least once.

The key spell is Vortex of Returning, you get it at Thaumaturgy 7. There are many ways to use VoR but I'll concentrate on (what I think is) the most deadly one.

The second key spell is - actually there are 3 of them: Summon Lammashas, Call Lesser Horror, and Call Horror.

Note this trick relies a lot on the fact that most of the mages accompanying enemy armies will spend their first round "powering up" with spells that don't directly threaten you - eg, Quickness, Communion Master/Slave, Power of the Spheres, Summon XXX Power, etc... But when you've used the trick once on them, they'll try to adapt to cope with the threat - so try to hit hard on the first attempt!

What you need:

- a fair number of teleporting/trapezing mages who can summon those "unfriendly" allies: Lammashtas and/or Horrors. Abysian Warlocks, Grand Thaumaturgs, Harab Elders, Hangadrotts, Moon Mages or Galdermen with a random in death and Skull Staves, are examples of this.

- a few teleporting/trapezing mages who can cast damaging enchantments that cover the whole battlefield. Eg, powerful astral mages can cast Astral Tempest, or if you lack astral power you can have some of your mages cast Communion Slave and follow with Astral Tempest, but you'll have to give a Crystal Matrix to your mage. Trapezing mages can of course cast Wrathful Skies. If you find an Jade Amazon sorceress with a pick in astral or air, you can give her the stuff she needs to teleport or trapeze in and cast Foul Vapors. The possibilities are virtually endless.

- finally, at the bottom of the mage list, there's your VoR caster. Make sure he casts Last, and give him every piece of equipment he needs to survive. If he dies, your other mages might be in serious trouble. You can script an extra mage with VoR to minimize the risks.

The only real threat your mages will face is missile fire and fliers. But you can counter that with air shielding gear, a Staff of Storms, and a few Wraith Crowns (for the undead meatshields). The Wraith Crowns are expensive but are only needed if you notice fliers in your target - beware of spells like Howl, though.

Still, this trick is best used if you add a Master Enslaver in your hunting pack. Imagine this scenario:

0 - you teleport your mage pack on top of the main enemy army.

round 1, enemy phase - the enemy mages power-up or cast battle enchantments that will take effect only 1 round later, the enemy infantry and cavalry charges, the enemy archers fire but fail to hit your air-shielded/lucky mages, the enemy fliers are engaging your undead bodyguards.

round 1, your phase - most of your own mages summon Lammashtas and/or Horrors, some may cast Communion Slave to help the Crystal Matrix bearers, some cast Foul Vapors or Wrathful Skies or Astral Tempest or whatever, a couple mages can Curse and Horror Mark the enemy Titan pretender, your Master Enslaver converts half the enemy army, and the VoR caster sends everyone back to safety, including your new recruits.

round 1, "ally" phase - the Lammashtas/Horrors engage the depleted enemy army, preferably the horror marked units. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

round 2+ - well, do I need to say more? Enjoy the replay! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Final note: the Horror Harmonica (with boots of Quickness) is a great tool to use with Vortex of Returning.

[ January 13, 2004, 04:22: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Truper]

For this one you might consider... THE VORTEX OF NO RETURN

You might want to put it as the "TOO MUCH MAGIC DOWNWARD SPIRAL"

Edit: Btw I call Truper "THE JAVA TROOPER"

[ January 13, 2004, 03:55: Message edited by: Zen ]

DIE FOR YOUR COUNTRY!

This is for later games when you're massively outnumbered by undead and want a cheap and effective way of dealing with masses of them.

Use this with any Astral/Fire mages

Before Battle have your mages cast Inner Fire.

First Spell in Battle, cast Phoenix Pyre (or Phoenix Power depending on where you place your mages).

Send the mages in for close combat (or fly if you are T'ien Ch'i to the back row)

FIREWORKS!

The Phoenix Pyre will hit any type of creature, while the Inner Sun burst will fry all low hp undead (Up to Longdead Horsemen and sometimes banes) and possibly higher end, depending on their MR.

The Pyre up and are ready to die for their country again, and take out a few boneys in the process.

They can do this until they run out of fatigue then death will be final, but 2 or 3 of these guys can take out huge numbers of those pesky undead, even if they have Antimagic on them.

Try it with Sacred Troops with a high Earth Blessing, some reinvigoration items, or Relief, for fun.

Beauty of this is you can send them in close to cast up close and personal banishments (which cost 0 Fatigue) while they blow the britches off of those who come to kill them.

[ January 13, 2004, 08:24: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:
DIE FOR YOUR COUNTRY!

This is for later games when you're massively outnumbered by undead and want a cheap and effective way of dealing with masses of them.

Nations this is easiest and most useful for: Abysia, Marignon, Mictlan, T'ien Ch'i.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, if this is for later games and you're Abysia, you can also use Alex's "Supercharged Abysian Warlock" routine to good effect - a Solar Brilliance will come handy in that scenario ;-)

These work well to teleport into back undead provinces, since commanders don't use food and most undead provinces don't have much supply.

[ January 13, 2004, 08:38: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Lots of entertaining stuff!

My favourite C'tis unit is Serpent Dancers. With a water9 blessing you can really cause havoc with these guys. Haven't tried fire9 with them yet but it could be interesting.

You can support Serpent Dancers with City Guard as Arrow catchers. City Guard may not be much good vs real troops but they have a strat move of 2, prot 14 and will do fine in the early expansion in a support role on hold and attack. Later they do better than you would think in BIG units to compensate for low morale and they do have good MR's. As they play such a light role in expansion you get alot of veterans with a decent def and they have a spear for repelling - its not their job to win the battle.

One of the things I really like about this approach is how light casulties are during expansion if you get it right. This means you get a really good ramping up of military strenght.

The other key advantage is that the cost work well together. With the Serent Dancers costing 20gps 5 res and the CG costing 10gps and 13 res its easy to build up a mixed army fast.

The Shamans are great fun with 50% quickness. If you can abuse them normally . . . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Alex will you be putting out a text/word copy of your Tome?

Cheers

Keir

[ January 15, 2004, 06:37: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[apoger]

This thread is the copy of the tome! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I intend to add a few stratagies to it every week. This game will be dead and forgotten before I run out of material.

[Wauthan]

THE HOLY BOLTS OF MARIGNON

A strategy so fiendish that its use has been Banned by Carmong the Cardinal of Marignon himself, under the pain of torturous death. It is still allowed to be used the holy wars against heretic faiths of course.

Take virtue pretender. Take air magic 10. Build three*10 crossbowmen. One on fire archers and two on fire closest. Build a group of Knights of the Chalise and put them in the front on hold and attack closest. Get a Friar to bless them.

The Knights are plenty tough so why waste such a high bless effect on them? Well since they are now nigh impervious to missile fire you can fire at will right into melee with your crossbows without fear of friendly casualities. They are also shock resistant so the Virtue pretender can idly toss chained lightning about.

My opponent had his archers on rearmost, cavalery, archers and closest. Putting a single knight in the far back flank solved two of these problems and attrition on the crossbows was not very severe at all.

I devastated the AI in this way using only five knights in the front, and five*10 crossbowmen. Almost looked like musketeer based wars are not so far off in Dominions 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This strategy can of course be used in different variations for the two other strong missile nations Man and T'ien Ch'i. Trouble is that their holy units don't have the staying power of Knights of the Chalice for the same investment in gold.

[General Tacticus]

re: THE HOLY BOLTS OF MARIGNON

I often use a (weaker) Version with Ulm : find yourself a province with nice and cheap shortbows. Build as many as you can, and fill the sky with arrows, while your nice big super-heavy infantry holds the line. Arrows just bounce off your infantry, but the enemy will take quite nice casualties...

[Taqwus]

Regarding Phoenix Pyre abuse, this might be very cheap and nasty with Communicants considering that the Phoenix Pyre, cast by a fire/astral mage, should also affect them too. It might be cheap enough to set up some bizarre chain-reactions just for kicks...

[Pocus]

IN THE SHADOWS WE WALK:

This is the standard operating procedure for nations which have an easy access to body etheral. The aim is to toughten quite a lot some choice units with BE. You dont need awesome units, good ones are sufficient.

Have a mage on BE thrice.

I) In front of him, put 3 Groups of 2 units on hold& attack (yes in the same square, the front one, see below). During battle, they will be placed by the dom2 tac engine with one unit in the square you requested, and one in the south-west square (below the mage, if you follow me). This give you a total of 6 units in 2 squares.

II) In his square put 2 Groups of 1 unit.

Overall you have 3 squares filled, each with 3 units (8 combatting, 1 mage). The hold&attack will make your combattants move on the third round. The mage will cast BE during the first three rounds, on each of the 3 squares. He will commences on his square, has the value is the highest (thus protecting him ASAP).

This lead to 8 etheralized units attacking on round 3.
This formation can be repeated for several mages,depending on mage availability and toughness of opposition. Against indep, you can generally win a battle at 1 against 3 w/o too much problem.

A further interest is that your small Groups prevent you from a total rout. Groups will rout one by one, when some soldiers are wounded. On high end units, like paladins or knights they will rout if direly wounded, and this is what you want : each wounded retreat, thus preventing the loss of the unit.

By the way, for cavalry, adapt the formation, as they are size 3. You can BE 5 cavalry for each mage, put one horseman in each square.

Yes, it asks for some micromanaging http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

edit : typos.

[ January 17, 2004, 07:35: Message edited by: Pocus ]

[void]

DEADLY SWARM

create GE Haunted forest first.
most ppl(93%) will not go to dispel it(view here: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000999#000001 )

put a nature mage into combat. Nature 1 is enough,more levels more better.
give she some emerald---you can only give one.
have she cast "swarm" in the battle.
yes, a nature 1 mage + 1 emerald..what will happen? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

it's not a scheme of attacking,but a good tactics for defending(only effective in your dominions).

[ January 27, 2004, 02:43: Message edited by: void ]

[Tuna-Fish]

Originally posted by apoger:
EVERYONE LOVES DRAGONS

BLUE DRAGON

Early research provides Quickness and Breath of Winter, which make the dragon much more formidable.

Water-9 provides the bless effect of +4 defense and "50% quickness". Not bad at all.

In the midgame the spell Grip of Winter might help deal with large forces. This is not as dangerous as the red dragon, but the reserach will be done ages earlier.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Water-9 caster also has a very nice spell that can deal massive damage versus both normal armies and big creatures and cannot be resisted. What is it? Falling Frost!

It has area = 5+ AND damage 18+. When cast by a water-9 mage, it deals damage to an area of 11 and does enough damage to kill all normal troops and severely wound all better ones. And unlike most water/fire spells, it just cannot be resisted with anything but high protection.

I mainly use it with the Jotunheim Son of Niefel, who can easily power himself up a level or two with robe of the sea and sea king's goblet. W-11 falling frost tested against heavies of ulm, nothing survived the first bLast and it has the area of 13.

Instant damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Graeme Dice]

AS YOUR LIFE GOES DOWN THE DRAIN.

THis is a strategy that is only really useful with the nations that have easy access to death 3 and death 4 mages. The nations that can reach death 3 fairly easily include:
C'Tis: Sauromancers(Default/Tombs) and 1/8 Marshmasters(Miasma)
Ermor: 1/8 Grand Thaumaturgs(Broken Empire), Dusk Elders(Ashen Empire/Soul Gate)
Jotunheim: 1/16 Gygia(Iron Woods, Niefelheim), 1/4 Norna(Utgard)
Vanheim: Hangadrott(Helheim)

Any nation that can reach death 3 can also summon a mound fiend for 28 gems, which is a death 3 and unholy 3 mage. This is very expensive in gems however, and you may be better off using them otherwise.

What this strategy involves is the alteration 5 spell "Drain Life". This is a range 25, precision 100, 14+ unresistable damage, armor negating spell requiring a death skill of 4 that both heals and removes fatigue from the caster when cast on a living target. Drain life will damage any creature, but will not provide healing or fatigue reduction against non-living creatures. To reach death 4 costs only ten gems for a skull staff for the above nations, so it is a very good investment.

This synergizes very well with quickness, as the mage will get tired only if they face an army almost exclusively of undead. The mages are also usually smart enough to start raising skeletons (enchantment 3) to protecct themselves and overwhelm the enemy. The AI will then alter its spellcasting to use drain life when its fatigue reaches high levels, and go back to summoning more undead, or casting high level spells such as banefire or cloud of death.

[Pocus]

By the way, where is Alex? Not seen since more than a month...

[JaydedOne]

Just thought I'd bump this thread as it's been a month and I consider it one of the more useful/imaginative compilations out there for players looking to pick up a few new tricks.

I'd add some of my own, but I'm afraid I have to admit to not having had the time or experience to be anywhere near this creative yet.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

SACRIFICIAL LAMBS

(Actually I haven't tried this - yet. But I think it should work).

(1) deploy a bunch of communicants in the front line.

(2) have a communion master with blood magic cast Blood Vengeance. The more communion slaves, the better. Theoretically a +4 communion (ie, at least 16 slaves) should allow even a blood-1 mage to cast a level 6 Blood Vengeance. Anything but the most resilient troops should annihilate themselves on your communicants.

[Gateway103]

Curious, if enemy casts Wrathful Sky, or any non-directly damaging spells, Blood Vengenence won't work would it? Similarly, if they have high MR, BV doesn't work too well either I think...

And isn't BV Blood 9 spell? So you also need to bring a bit of blood slaves in addition to communicants.

-Gateway103

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Gateway103:
Curious, if enemy casts Wrathful Sky, or any non-directly damaging spells, Blood Vengenence won't work would it?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would think that it would, since the wrathful skies depends on the caster still being alive, so it's tied to them.

Similarly, if they have high MR, BV doesn't work too well either I think...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the point of using many communicants to boost the blood level of the caster so that it's more difficult to resist the effects of the blood vengeance.

And isn't BV Blood 9 spell? So you also need to bring a bit of blood slaves in addition to communicants.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You'd only need 1 blood slave to have it effect all the communion slaves.

[Yossar]

Does high level blood magic make blood vengeance harder to resist? I tried casting it with a Blood-5 caster and still got Blood Vengeance +0.

[st.patrik]

Time to add a humble addition to this august thread.

This isn't a new strategy, but something fun to do with THE PERFECT STORM.

People in the past have complained about the unique item 'sandals of the crane' - saying that they cannot conceive of a use for it. Well it seems to me that the sandals of the crane and the perfect storm go together like hand and glove. The problem with the perfect storm is that sooner or later the opposing troops are going to get to you - especially if you're facing fast-moving units. Equip your death dealing commander with the sandals of the crane and a couple of items to give high protection/defense and then sit back and enjoy the show, as the opposing army runs first one way and then the other, trying to catch up with your teleporting mage; meanwhile the wrathful skies is slowly (or not so slowly) destroying his army. Since the effect of the sandals of the crane is automatic, your handy-dandy mage can cast other things, either to speed the killing process, or to buff him or herself.

I tried this with a Virtue pretender equipped with a robe of invulnerability and said sandals, and the result was quite pleasing, although I'm sure that it would work with a crone as well.

needless to say this would also work with foul vapours, or any other damaging battlefield enchantment. one hint though - load up on reinvigoration items

[Pocus]

FORWARD, MARCH:

Not a combos per se, but something rather interesting to know:

The common behavior for troops with melee and missile weapons (ex legionaries) are to use them as infantry, and order them to hold&attack or attack closest.
It results often in the troop engaging the enemy, and firing a volley of pilum in a suboptimal manner (sometime they dont, sometime only the Last line fire, etc.)

Now use them as archers. Order your legionaries, or javelin thrower to fire. Just that, fire.
What will happen? If they have ammo and an enemy in range, they fire. Each time. Its a great improvement compared to the standard behavior.
If they dont have enemy in range, or dont have any more javelins, they move to close and engage the enemy. For archers it is somehow problematic, for legionaries, its what you want.

So try this order, you will see that you get far more pilums and javelins thrown, and they still act as infantry after.

As I said, a very small trick...

[archaeolept]

time to bump this classic. I checked who was Online, and it indicates what threads they are currently reading, and two were reading this thread...

[Vicious Love]

FLAMING EXPLOITS

Ingredients:


Thaumaturgy 1 OR Blood 1 OR COnstruction 4(Or was it 6?), Alteration 7, Conjuration I forget how much and am too lazy to check

1. One or more mages with (Astral OR Blood OR Communion Matrix) AND Fire

2. A billion communicants. Scouts or thugs with matrices will do, but astral/blood mages will likely be feebleminded ere the battle is through.

Optional ingredients include a relief-casting nature mage, Medallions of Vengeance and Inner Sun rituals, and a communion master capable of casting Breath of Winter, Soul Vortex, Invulnerability, Mistform, Mirror Image, and so on, and so forth. But especially BoW and Soul Vortex.
Sandals of the Crane on the communion master would be a beautiful, if potentially catastrophic, addition.


Instructions:


Script mage/s to Communion/Sabbath Master(Or give 'em matrices, to save precious time and queue depth), Phoenix Pyre, Summon Earthpower(Reinvigoration 4!), Fire Shield(Or Phoenix Power, then Fire Shield), Blink, then either cast spells or attack, depending on lifespan and number of communicants, and on whether a nature mage casting relief/communion master casting Reinvigoration is present*.
Spectate.
Avoid confrontation with 0 encumbrance, cold-, fire-, and Soul Vortex-immune foes.**



* Hold on, would this WORK? Would ALL communion slaves recover 100 fatigue?
Also, are there any spells beside this and Summon Earthpower which reinvigorate the caster?

** This strategy has never been tested, and may well be bollocks.

[Jarkko]

apoger said:
"HIT N' RUN" GOLEM
-snip-
Cast Ritual of Returning so your Golem doesn't get hurt.
-snip-
Upon entering combat cast Astral Tempest - Body Ethereal - Personal Luck - Astral Shield - Twist Fate - then "cast spells".


Could somebody please elaborate to this n00b why it is better to cast Twist Fate (which negates first hit but doesn't do anything else useful if I am correct) and not go directly for "Cast spells"? If I understand it right the first hit going through will teleport the Golem back. If there is somebody able to hit the Golem, wouldn't it be most likely that somebody has either several attacks or friends along, so twist fate doesn't actually give a round more of spell-casting? Or are there some close-range spells one should hope the Golem casts by waiting one round (ie casting Twist Fate first = delays the bLasting for one turn)?

[Wendigo]

Jarkko said:
(ie casting Twist Fate first = delays the bLasting for one turn)?



The bLasting is being done with Astral tempest, any further spells by the Golem afterwards are just extra, but you want to prolong your battlefield bLasting for as long as possible:

Without Twist fate the golem would teleport to the capitol as soon as it suffers any damage, with Twist fate (assuming Twist fate triggers before Ritual of returning) you might gain some extra rounds of Astral tempest damage to the whole enemy force.

[Jarkko]

Wendigo said:
The bLasting is being done with Astral tempest


Ok, thank's for the clarification http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Jack Simth]

Vicious Love said:
** This strategy has never been tested, and may well be bollocks.

The strat can work (haven't tested the blood reinvig addition at all), but it can have some issues:
1) a great many of the critters most easily used for communion slaves are NOT immune to soul vortex, and so tend to die of fratricide from each other's vortices.
2) Many of the critters most commonly used for communion slaves are cheap (and therefore have little health) and so die of fratricide when their copy of Pheonix Pyre goes off - killing attackers, sure, but also killing any other communion slaves that are nearby. With the ordering of the Pheonix Pyre's Explosion/Random Repop, it's actually possible to lose half your communion slaves from chain fratricide in a single combat round if you are unlucky.
3) The effects of 1 and 2 can stack. If too many of your communion slaves gather too closely together, they ALL DIE.

Mind you, it can be EXTREMELY amusing to watch....

[Taqwus]

Regarding reinvig, Summon Earthpower, IIRC, is the only spell which provides constant reinvigoration. There are one-shot spells which reduce fatigue, such as Relief (which affects all friendlies, including communicants, to some degree) and Leeching Touch / Leech / Drain Life. It wouldn't surprise me too much if the draining spells went through a separate code path and didn't affect the communicants, but if it did...


Oh, and yes those chain-exploding Phoenix Pyre'd communicants can be quite a sight to behold. Especially if it was the spell-casting AI that chose Phoenix Pyre instead of it being listed in a script.


On weirdness involving communion, it might be noteworthy that at least one stock nation gets not-terribly-expensive -stealthy- astral mages -- the Star Children of R'lyeh, available at any underwater or coastal fort. They don't get other magic, however, which limits what they can do (although a stealthy Communion + Doom + Vortex of Returning might be irritating).

[alexti]

Vicious Love said:
2. A billion communicants. Scouts or thugs with matrices will do


Communicants must have magic skills (at least 1 in some magic path)

[archaeolept]

well, other than pythian commies, that is.

[alexti]

COMMUNICANTS FROM TARTAR.

This communion strategy is devised to eliminate traditional weakness of communion - fragile communicants. Only Tartarians are allowed into this elite communion.

In Tartar communion, slaves are expected to both spellcast and fight while masters will quickly go into melee.

Few Tartarians with interesting paths become communion masters or communion masters and slaves at the same time. Others become communion slaves. 2-3 slaves per master should be enough. Communion slaves are equipped with hydra skin armor and boots of messenger. Other items are intended to maximize battle their melee potential. One of masters should have crystal shield, they should be able to cast quickness, fire and lightning protection, hell power, earth power, mistform, invunerability, personal luck, astral shield, astral weapon, mirror image, soul vortex, breath of winter, fire shield and resist magic. Someone (preferrably slave) should be able to cast other useful spells: doom, darkness, wrathful skies and any other batlefield-wide destructive spells.

Important points:
- every slave is expected to get +3 in every magic path (crystal shield + hell power) and +4 in earth, therefore they should start their script on hold, so that they don't start casting until empowerment.
- masters should be equipped to provide uncovered resistances.
- every masters should be scripted to attack after casting buffs (they're the main danger for the slaves).
- Tartarians should be placed so that the slaves are close together and in the front of masters and other troops (except, maybe, some fodder) This is necessary, because the slaves won't rush into the fight and they will only go to melee if the enemies comes into the range. Apparently, they will not advance to get within the spell range either.

Expected slave stats:
HP - 200 and growing...
regeneration - 40 per turn
Att/Def - in mid twenties
MR - 30-35
protection - 30.
resistance to pretty much everything resistable

Weapons:
breath of winter, fire shield, soul vortex, astral shield + melee weapon.

Edited: Clarified how to get slaves to fight.

[deccan]

Do communion slaves fight? Don't they just stand around doing nothing?

[alexti]

Communicants can do something useful if they're not exhausted by their masters, Fatigue should be less than &lt; 100. That's why masters must be scripted to buff and attack.

Communicants won't rush into melee, but if the enemy comes within the range they will fight him (that's why I suggest positioning communicants in the front).

Oops, Peter Ebbesen's post I was replying to has disappeared... I guess he's realized how I scripted them. Though his point about hydra skin is probably valid. Regeneration shows on stats and master will cast personal regeneration (usually mages wouldn't cast spell which wouldn't work), but with the soul vortex and life draining weapons it's hard to say if regeneration works. My guess would be that it probably doesn't work, which makes my strategy vulnerably to the army of undead with a lot of wither bones spellcasters. I wonder if any healing spells would work on undead Tartarians. If regeneration doesn't work hydra skin should probably be replaced with rainbow armor.

I've attached replay of the battle. It's not perfectly setup (suboptimal equipment and the spell sequence could probably be better), but it demonstrates the strategy well (password is "fire")

[Peter Ebbesen]

alexti said:
Oops, Peter Ebbesen's post I was replying to has disappeared... I guess he's realized how I scripted them.



Yes, sorry about that. I wrote a long post, then realised that I was dead wrong under the right circumstances, i.e. slaves placed right in the line of fire. I still think Hydra Skin Armour is a poor choice due to fatigue issues, but that does not invalidate your strategy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You might want to add to your original post the point about how the slaves get activated and actually fight. Since many people use communion slaves in the rear row, the most common experience is that they do nothing at all no matter how you script them.

[alexti]

Peter Ebbesen said:

alexti said:
Oops, Peter Ebbesen's post I was replying to has disappeared... I guess he's realized how I scripted them.



Yes, sorry about that. I wrote a long post, then realised that I was dead wrong under the right circumstances, i.e. slaves placed right in the line of fire. I still think Hydra Skin Armour is a poor choice due to fatigue issues, but that does not invalidate your strategy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Fatigue management needs to be tailored to the custom situation. If the enemy has a lot of living troops fatigue problem doesn't exist due to soul vortex and life-draining weapons. With masters going into melee the usual fatigue issues of communion disappear, so slaves suffer fatigue only from their own spells. There're several ways to deal with situation: have a slave scripted to relief (uncertain after round 5), minimize encumbrance, wear reinvigortion items (rainbow armor is a primary candidate to replace hydra skin),script slaves to 5 spells and attack. It is also possible to ignore the problem. Without masters casting, slaves only need to deal with their own fatigue, which starts to restore after it gets over 100. With Tartarian staying power and multiple aura effects, falling unconcious for few turns may not be a big deal, especially when different slaves use different strategies. And the only reason for hydra skin was to provide regeneration vs non-resistable damage, so if it doesn't work it should not be used.


Peter Ebbesen said:
You might want to add to your original post the point about how the slaves get activated and actually fight. Since many people use communion slaves in the rear row, the most common experience is that they do nothing at all no matter how you script them.


Thanks, I've added explanation about that to my original post.

Actually, I think placing communion slaves in the back is impractical in many regular communions as well. Spellcasting slaves can add quite a bit of firepower, so in many situations I'd place them to have enemies within the range of spells I'd like to use.

[Zooko]

Regarding "we walk in shadows": I don't understand the point of putting three Groups of two units each in the square directly in front of the mage. Why not instead do the thing that you want done: a squad of two units in the same square as the mage, a squad of three units in the square in front of the mage, and a squad of three units in the square south of the mage?

Or for that matter, why not just make a squad of 8 units and put it right on top of the mage?

[Wendigo]

Zooko said:
Regarding "we walk in shadows": I don't understand the point of putting three Groups of two units each in the square directly in front of the mage. Why not instead do the thing that you want done: a squad of two units in the same square as the mage, a squad of three units in the square in front of the mage, and a squad of three units in the square south of the mage?

Or for that matter, why not just make a squad of 8 units and put it right on top of the mage?




Both your suggestion &amp; Pocus are valid, yet for different targets.

Body ethereal is area 1 (1 square), thus you can etherealize Groups of 3x size2 infantry as you suggest, or Groups of 2x size3 horse, such as knights.

A different issue is whether to group everybody together or use small Groups. Both options have advantages &amp; disadvantages (higher morale for a big group, but also higher loses &amp; when you fail a check everybody is gone, which might result in an army rout).
One further reason in favour of using small Groups as Pocus suggests is that you have more control over battlefield placement (which is important to get everybody etherealized), when you stick a bunch of leaders in the same place as a unit (say, 3 mages &amp; 24 troopers) they do not always end in the exact center, and if they are not well placed some of the soldiers might be out of range. Using multiple small units increases the micromanagement exponentially however.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Wendigo said:
when you stick a bunch of leaders in the same place as a unit (say, 3 mages &amp; 24 troopers) they do not always end in the exact center



True, the trick is not dumping the leaders on the same square. Try this:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>

+-------------------+
| +---+ |
| | | |
| +---+ |
| +---+ |
| | | |
| +---+ |
| +---+ |
| | | |
| +---+ |
+-------------------+

</pre><hr />

Big square = 24 Inf squad
Small squares = 1 etherealizer each

Always worked for me so far.

[Edit: for this to work, each leader must be at least 1 tile away from the battlefield edges]