patch 2.06 out

[johan osterman]

In case you haven't visited the shrapnel front page, the patch 2.06 is out. Make sure all players participating in MP's update the same turn or the host will crash.

[Wauthan]

Thanks for the tip. My only bookmark is this forum so I would propably have been clueless until the Posts started mentioning the patch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Pocus]

thanks a lot!!!

copy of the readme :

New Features / Game Balance Changes:

Modding possible for monsters, nations and scales.
New theme for Marignon, Conquerors of the Sea.
New theme for Ulm, Black Forest.
Master password.
Two new gods, Divine Glyph and Carrion Dragon.
(Mis)fortune affects event frequency with 5% per step.
Order/Turmoil affects event frequency with 5% per step.
New Divine Titles.
New magic sites.
Pressing 'I' on unit info shows monster/weapon/armor numbers.
Fires of the Faith is more powerful against enemy dominions.
Num Pad can be used to enter numbers too.
Symbol for recuperation.
Map screen speedup.
Three new independent sea provinces.
Bonus resources for the difficult AIs now depends on the game richness setting.
Master Alchemist -> 50 DP
Black Bone -> pirate captain
Improved cheat detection
Pangaea has different start units.
New environment variables for maps and mods directories (DOM2_MAPS & DOM2_MODS).
Can now hold 5 times as many maps.
Added one more resolution setting.
New Sauromancer for desert tombs nature-> fire
Warning before deleting server game.
Fatal error Messages are sent to stderr.
Queen of the Lake can no longer summon allies.



Bug Fixes:

Bug left the highest resolutions permanently greyed out.
Crystal Heart never expired.
It was possible to appoint the god as prophet.
Some afflictions couldn't heal when recalling god.
Fires from Afar affected too many targets.
-p works properly now.
Send Horror works properly now.
Fire susceptibility wasn't displayed correctly.
Fixed temp file error with long (>500) temp dir path.
One Comander of Ulm, strat move 1 -> 2.
Error message if old Dominions I file is present in maps folder.
When casting wish you didn't see what you typed.
Niefelheim could recruit Gygjas in underwater forts.
Fixed minor network memory leak.
Serpent King snake form was sacred.
Knight of avalon, hoof -> alicorn.
Arch Censor doesn't eat any longer.
Twin spear has serpent kryss stats, fixed.
No more random hill forts in the sea.
No longer possible to drown mercs by recruiting then in underwater provinces.
Incorrect stealth value was displayed sometimes.
Couldn't be immune to bog beast poison.
Arcane Domination is now an alteration spell.
Carrion Reanimation didn't work correctly.
Raven Feast didn't bring any death gems.
Some humanbreds had wrong equipment and movement rate.
It was possible to bid a negative amount of money on mercs, fixed.
Revenant no longer eats.
Sharks had too many item slots.
Dancing Trident resulted in attack skill reduction.
Naga had wrong path cost.
Fixed an error when changing victory condition.
Fixed potential memory screw up.
Some popups were wrong when under siege.
Routed unit has -4 def after combat, fixed.
Black Sorcerer doesn't change back if hit by global, fixed.
New Era Pan had wrong weapon.
Many typos corrected

[Pocus]

does the AI logic has been improved in some ways? (thinking mostly of more castles and less light units)

That means that Order 1 -5% Events, Turmoil 1 +5 Events.

And Fortune, Misfortune affect +5% per scale.

So now if you take Order 3, Misfortune 3, you will even out to the standard.

While if you take Turmoil 3, Fortune 3, you will have 30% Increase in events, with 80% of the time them being good.

Whether or not this 'balances' out Order/Turmoil we'll have to see. I didn't see anything about changing the weight of the events, but I actually haven't seen a bad event with Order/Misfortune 3 yet with Black Forest, but that may be because of the fortune tellers.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Pocus:
does the AI logic has been improved in some ways? (thinking mostly of more castles and less light units) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, but the resource boost on high difficulty should result in a greater proportion heavily armored and hometown units when those difficulties are used.

[ January 12, 2004, 13:53: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[Pocus]

ok, I hope that I will get an excruciatingly (sp?) painful and slow death from the hands of impossible AI in the game I just launched http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Jasper]

Damn. Now I'll get nothing done all week. ;-(

[Endoperez]

Are the demos in the Shrapnel's site 2.02 or 2.06? Will they be updated? If yes, when are Version 2.06 demos coming out?

[apoger]

Questions now that I have looked at the patch:

#1 Ulm [Black Forest] produces death gems and has an undead troop. Yet has no death mage. Only one mage with blood-1 (undead leadership-5). I get the feeling there is supposed to be a death mage, otherwise how are we supposed to use the death gems or lead the ghoul troops? Am I missing something?

#2 In the MOD tools - Is there a way to allow units to create/summon allies? Or produce gems?

#3 In the MOD tools - Is there a way to add/remove the "allies in combat" ability? Lets say for example (heh...) I wanted to take the free imps away from the Moloch.

#4 In the MOD tools - I see how I can edit a nation. What if I wanted to leave the nation, but add a theme? Can we make or even edit themes?

#5 In the MOD tools - If I wanted to do work on pretender units, how would I designate the costs of magic paths (such as: Fire:3 Air:2 costs 30 to start a new path).

[apoger]

Oh yeah..

#6 In the MOD tools - I see a command to clear national heros, but how do I add in/designate new ones?

[Johan K]

1. They start with a blood/death spell to summon a vampire count. Otherwise use the blood mages, you can go quite far with 5 ghoul guardians.

2. If it's not in the modding manual then those abilities have been forgotten. Next patch!

3. Use the #clear command and then add the abilities you want him to retain.

4. No

5. That's for the next patch.

6. Not possible yet

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Johan K:
[QB] 1. They start with a blood/death spell to summon a vampire count. Otherwise use the blood mages, you can go quite far with 5 ghoul guardians.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Sanguine Heritage spell has no description available when you look under the casting information.

[apoger]

Thanks for the fast reply.

>1. They start with a blood/death spell to summon a vampire count.


The Vamp Count requires Blood-3 and Death-3 plus 44 slaves. That's a pretty steep cost for a nation that has Blood-1 and Death-0. Basically you must cultivate your pretender as a blood/death mage to use this aspect of the theme. You probably should have given players some clue about this in the description. I'd never have figured it out myself.

There is still no real way to use the death gems. Until you get a random pick in death or use the pretender.

I'm not too keen on giving nations abilities, but not the mages to use them.


>Otherwise use the blood mages, you can go quite far with 5 ghoul guardians.


Not if I have to hire a mage to lead every 5 of them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif


>3. Use the #clear command and then add the abilities you want him to retain.

Except we have no commands to add those types of abilities back in...


>4. No

No ability to affect/create themes?

That's a MODing disaster as the themes are a large portion of the game.

In fact this forces me to muck with the nations main theme, which is something I really wanted to avoid.

I do not want to be forced to remove a main nation just to add in a mod. This defeats the whole point of modding, which is to ADD to a game.


[gigantic sigh] Until mods don't subtract main themes, and until the battle replay speed is fixed, I'm going to stay out of Modding. This isn't some sort of threat. It's just too frustrating to have almost what you need, but not quite enough. When the MOD tools are up to spec, I'll do a massive and fun MOD. Until then I'm watching from the sidelines.

[ January 12, 2004, 15:34: Message edited by: apoger ]

[licker]

Since I didn't see it mentioned in Pocus's post...

Any word on the renaming (or tagging) of commanders? I thought that the devs were looking into this a while back.

[Pocus]

lets keep things positive. I too am a bit disappointed by the unability to add themes, but I think it would be rather harsh to greet a patch from our prefered devs with only frowned faces.

So despite the fact that the patch is not the bringer of all that we waited for, congrats!! I'm sure that a new one will be out before March http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by apoger:
Oh yeah..

#6 In the MOD tools - I see a command to clear national heros, but how do I add in/designate new ones? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If the national heroes are specific to nation you are swapping out then possibly the mod file can alter the old ones to what you wanted? Kludgy but might work.

[apoger]

>lets keep things positive.

I'll be the first one standing up and applauding when it's done right.

Until then I'll call it like I see it.

[apoger]

>If the national heroes are specific to nation you are swapping out then possibly the mod file can alter the old ones to what you wanted? Kludgy but might work.


Yeah, but this change will propagate down to the nations other themes, which may not be appropriate.

This is why I'm out until I can work with the themes rather than cutting into the main nation.

[Teraswaerto]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by apoger:
Oh yeah..

#6 In the MOD tools - I see a command to clear national heros, but how do I add in/designate new ones? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If the national heroes are specific to nation you are swapping out then possibly the mod file can alter the old ones to what you wanted? Kludgy but might work. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Isn't it so that we can only create new units, but not modify old ones?

[ January 12, 2004, 15:55: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[Johan K]

Originally posted by apoger:

I do not want to be forced to remove a main nation just to add in a mod. This defeats the whole point of modding, which is to ADD to a game.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is very easy to enable/disable a mod. So you won't remove anything from the game by making a modified pythium. Just enable that mod when you want that variety of pythium. And I believe the point of modding is to modify the game.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by apoger:
#3 In the MOD tools - Is there a way to add/remove the "allies in combat" ability? Lets say for example (heh...) I wanted to take the free imps away from the Moloch.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To remove then the #clear would work though its the long way around.

To add.....
The old unused units that has summons are still in there. Maybe using somethng like the number for the old Lord of Night. You should be able to change him without affecting the new one.

edit: Wait, new thought. it might take editing the unit he summons. That would affect all Fiends of Darkness in the game. Is there an old unit which summons a unit which is also an old unit? Not sure if Im explaining that correctly. Might have to look for myself.... I wish there was a way to see unit number in use. There are a bunch of wolves but its a pain to figure out which unit number is actually the one being summoned.

Edit Again: THEY DID. Kewl. Bring up the unit and hit Shft-I

[johan osterman]

It isn't listed among the changes but there is also a new lvl 3 priests spell: smite demon.

[apoger]

>So you won't remove anything from the game by making a modified pythium. Just enable that mod when you want that variety of pythium.


A bunch of players get together and want to play. They decide to use the "apoger" mod.
This mod offers an alternate theme for every nation.
No player will then have access to ANY standard nation since they have all be replaced by my mod.


What I want, and I don't think this is out of line is;


A bunch of players get together and want to play.
They decide to use the "apoger" mod.
This mod offers an alternate theme for every nation.
The players that choose to utilize one of my new themes simply takes it from the theme menu when making their nation.
Players that don't want to use one of the extra themes just ignore it and play what they want.


This is a HUGE difference.

[Teraswaerto]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
It isn't listed among the changes but there is also a new lvl 3 priests spell: smite demon. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont't see it in the priest spell list.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by johan osterman:
It isn't listed among the changes but there is also a new lvl 3 priests spell: smite demon. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont't see it in the priest spell list. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I saw it there just an hour ago, if by priest spell list you mean the spells selectable as a battle spell order. It is after the others in the list.

[ January 12, 2004, 16:52: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[SurvivalistMerc]

Are the scale effects now modable? Because I am in a long hard solo game with order 3 misfortune 3 and I will probably get slammed to heck if I use the patch in that game.

On the other hand I'm also in a MP game that will probably require me to patch.

[Kristoffer O]

>Originally posted by apoger:
>You probably should have given players some clue about this in the description. I'd never have figured it out myself.

Rrright you are!

>There is still no real way to use the death gems. Until you get a random pick in death or use the pretender.

>I'm not too keen on giving nations abilities, but not the mages to use them.

My intention was not to give them abilities but to give them death gems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

>>Otherwise use the blood mages, you can go quite far with 5 ghoul guardians.

>Not if I have to hire a mage to lead every 5 of them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Vs independents they are awesome even if led by a powerful mage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by apoger:
>So you won't remove anything from the game by making a modified pythium. Just enable that mod when you want that variety of pythium.


A bunch of players get together and want to play. They decide to use the "apoger" mod.
This mod offers an alternate theme for every nation.
No player will then have access to ANY standard nation since they have all be replaced by my mod.


What I want, and I don't think this is out of line is;


A bunch of players get together and want to play.
They decide to use the "apoger" mod.
This mod offers an alternate theme for every nation.
The players that choose to utilize one of my new themes simply takes it from the theme menu when making their nation.
Players that don't want to use one of the extra themes just ignore it and play what they want.


This is a HUGE difference. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just make several APOGER MODs. A general one for scales and one for each nation to mod. The secrecy is lost, but you can at least choose which nations to mod.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
Are the scale effects now modable? Because I am in a long hard solo game with order 3 misfortune 3 and I will probably get slammed to heck if I use the patch in that game.

On the other hand I'm also in a MP game that will probably require me to patch. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Scales are moddable so if you want to keep the scale effects of 2.02 in MP games you must make a '2.02-scale-mod'. Not sure if mods can be activated in games that have already begun though.

[Teraswaerto]

Is there a way to enforce scales in a mod similar to a theme? Like make it mandatory to have +3 scale magic to with the modded nation?

Is the ability to edit or create new magic sites planned to be included?

[ January 13, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[Teraswaerto]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by johan osterman:
It isn't listed among the changes but there is also a new lvl 3 priests spell: smite demon. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont't see it in the priest spell list. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I saw it there just an hour ago, if by priest spell list you mean the spells selectable as a battle spell order. It is after the others in the list. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apparently it's only available in games created with 2.06.

[SurvivalistMerc]

Kristoffer,

Thanks for the prompt response.

If I patch, will a game begun in 2.02 keep the scales of 2.02, which is what I think most folks would like, or will it "update" the scales automatically with no way to reverse the update, which is what I understand your comments to indicate is what will happen?

Thanks.

[Saber Cherry]

Concerning Smite Demon,

It says "Magic Resistance Negates". Is there any penetration bonus? With the normal penetration of 11, smiting a mere imp (MR=13) would only work 37% of the time, and a devil (MR=17) would be 14%... and this from expensive level 3 priests! I would think a penetration of 15 would be minimal, and 16 or 17 about right, considering that demons tend to have very high magic resistance...

[ January 12, 2004, 17:23: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[ywl]

Turning Ulm into a stealthy, undead nations...

Somebody must have a sick sense of humour http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ...

[apoger]

>Just make several APOGER MODs. A general one for scales and one for each nation to mod. The secrecy is lost, but you can at least choose which nations to mod.


C'mon, when Illwinter makes a new theme it does not replace the main theme, it's simply an option that's selectable. Why make mods ridiculously clunky when you already have a method of adding in content?

Until we have the ability to add/edit/remove any theme, the mod tools are nothing more than a kludge (IMHO).

[Saber Cherry]

A couple bugs...

Marignon:

1) Missionaries can go over seas without taking units, but are not stealthy! I think they're supposed to be stealthy, because otherwise they are worse than priests (cost 60).

2) Marignon's ocean theme starts with a Friar commander, which is unavailable - should be a captain.

3) "Chartmaker" spelled "Cartmaker" in description.

4) Not a bug, but... they no longer have a cheap commander unit! Cheapest commander has cost 75, more expensive even than Abysia, Rlyeh, and Jotunheim. (P.S. I suggest a "Retired Sea Dog" - his sailing days are over but his pension is too small, so he comes out of retirement to use his commanding presence, though he stays on land only. Starts with 2 random afflictions, usually "lost an eye" and "limp").

Ulm:

1) Commander is shown with a sword & shield, but equipped with a pike and shield (3 hands).

2) Master Alchemist cannot do alchemy without magic picks. Seems a bit odd... =) (P.S. At 50 points, I'd expect him to start with 1 magic level, like the 55 point human mages. Fire or earth would be thematic for an alchemist.)

-Cherry

[ January 12, 2004, 18:01: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Concerning Smite Demon,

It says "Magic Resistance Negates". Is there any penetration bonus? With the normal penetration of 11, smiting a mere imp (MR=13) would only work 37% of the time, and a devil (MR=17) would be 14%... and this from expensive level 3 priests! I would think a penetration of 15 would be minimal, and 16 or 17 about right, considering that demons tend to have very high magic resistance... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Penetration on the level you suggest with the spells 15 armor negating damage and 100 precision would be a bit much, I think. As it is it is worse than dom1 banishment used to be againt imps but better than banishment against small numbers of powerful demons.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by apoger:

C'mon, when Illwinter makes a new theme it does not replace the main theme, it's simply an option that's selectable. Why make mods ridiculously clunky when you already have a method of adding in content?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because our way of adding it is WAY more clunky than the stuff you have. Adding a new theme requires me to make sprites and add them in one file, statistics in one file, magic in another, the units for the theme in one place, colours in another place, etc.

You have everything in one text file. Therefore the current solution. It might very well be changed without too much difficulties.

Neither of us at Illwinter have ever played modded games, so we're quite new to the concept. This is the first try. I like it, but it can be improved.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
Kristoffer,

Thanks for the prompt response.

If I patch, will a game begun in 2.02 keep the scales of 2.02, which is what I think most folks would like, or will it "update" the scales automatically with no way to reverse the update, which is what I understand your comments to indicate is what will happen?

Thanks. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the scales will be "updated".

[PrinzMegaherz]

Thanks to Illwinter for recuperation!

Now I love my White Bull even more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[SurvivalistMerc]

Thanks, Kristoffer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PhilD]

Originally posted by apoger:
>So you won't remove anything from the game by making a modified pythium. Just enable that mod when you want that variety of pythium.


A bunch of players get together and want to play. They decide to use the "apoger" mod.
This mod offers an alternate theme for every nation.
No player will then have access to ANY standard nation since they have all be replaced by my mod.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So maybe each mod, individually, shouldn't make too big changes - maybe you need an apoger-Abysia mod, and an apoger-Ulm, etc, plus maybe apoger-basic. Make each individual mod be activable separately from each other, and each player can choose whether he wants his own mod or not for the special theme.

I agree that it would be better to ALSO have the ability to add themes, but I believe the current setup will still let you do things. And will encourage modularity, which is a good thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PvK]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Concerning Smite Demon,

It says "Magic Resistance Negates". Is there any penetration bonus? With the normal penetration of 11, smiting a mere imp (MR=13) would only work 37% of the time, and a devil (MR=17) would be 14%... and this from expensive level 3 priests! I would think a penetration of 15 would be minimal, and 16 or 17 about right, considering that demons tend to have very high magic resistance... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Penetration on the level you suggest with the spells 15 armor negating damage and 100 precision would be a bit much, I think. As it is it is worse than dom1 banishment used to be againt imps but better than banishment against small numbers of powerful demons. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Johan. If (even level-3) priests had a very effective anti-demon spell, it'd be overly hard on demons, which already take a lot to get. Seems to me it's good if demons remain hard to get rid of - seems "thematic" for demons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif and good for balance.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by apoger:
...
C'mon, when Illwinter makes a new theme it does not replace the main theme, it's simply an option that's selectable. Why make mods ridiculously clunky when you already have a method of adding in content?

Until we have the ability to add/edit/remove any theme, the mod tools are nothing more than a kludge (IMHO). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From IW's earlier comments on what'd be in the first patch, I only expected a kludge for the new mod tools. It's their first step into moddability. Good to point out what else we'd like and expect, and I agree with your points in that way. I just wouldn't expect more for the first mod patch, and don't think we should give them a hard time about it.

PvK

[Gandalf Parker]

Just my humble opinion but I consider themes to be internal to the game. I dont especially like the idea of Users crossing that line. For purposes of quality assurance I would rather that themes stay in the area of Illwinter, and Mods be user territory (not saying Illwinter cant do a few).
If things can be done to make mods more capable toward theme abilitys thats ok but I like having them easily recognizeable as seperate things.

[apoger]

>Neither of us at Illwinter have ever played modded games, so we're quite new to the concept. This is the first try. I like it, but it can be improved.

I can accept that.

Kudos on a first try, and here's hoping that there will be improvements.

I'll just have to wait for those improvements before messing with the nations, which I was looking forward to doing. In the meantime I'll see if I can do a general mod involving the universal modifiers.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by apoger:
I'll just have to wait for those improvements before messing with the nations, which I was looking forward to doing. In the meantime I'll see if I can do a general mod involving the universal modifiers. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why not mess with nations. I can't imagine that it will be difficult to change a nation mod into a theme mod when it becomes available.

[PrinzMegaherz]

I'm curious, if everybody can chose his own mod to use in a multiplayer game, what should stop me to create some uber kickass nation?

Or did I get this wrong?

[SurvivalistMerc]

Prinz,

I think in MP all players must agree on the mod or you will end up with default theme sent from the hosted computer.

I think very few mods will end up being used in MP by folks who want to have a real chance at winning because they will have to have passed a rough balance test.

[Kristoffer O]

You must use the same mods in MP. If all agrees to enable 'Alexmod - Ulm' amd disable 'Alexmod - Marignon' the host can start a game with these mods.

The hosting computer is what really matters. If you try to play a modded game with a different mod on the client computer you will have either corrupted turns or false information i believe.

[Arryn]

Minor gripe: Pre-patch the arrow keys would auto-repeat when held down. Now they do not. This is one "fix" we could have done without methinks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Minor gripe: Pre-patch the arrow keys would auto-repeat when held down. Now they do not. This is one "fix" we could have done without methinks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They work for me...

[Keir Maxwell]

I seem to be having more problems with the Shrapnel web site as I can't get the patch download to show - I have had odd problems like this with it before. I've tried deleting all my offline content but all I can see on the dom2 download page is the different demo options and the SDL library. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

If someone could email me the patch that would be great - my provider is not concerned with attachments.

Cheers

Keir

[ January 12, 2004, 20:23: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Jasper]

Try getting it from Avault:
http://avault.com/pcrl/patches_temp.asp?patch=dominions2

[ January 12, 2004, 20:31: Message edited by: Jasper ]

[Saber Cherry]

New 2.06 bug: You can recruit while under siege. The gold you spend is used. But the units mysteriously never show up. Where do they go? I'm looking in my recycle bin...

I was testing luck, and Pythium (only scale: misfortune 3) got attacked by knights on turn 8, who took the capitol (defense: 30, plus initial troops patrolling). Ouch! With no way to recruit, they're out of the game for good. I don't know if troop should be recruitable under siege or not, but the gold shouldn't be used if they don't show up.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
I've tried deleting all my offline content but all I can see on the dom2 download page is the different demo options and the SDL library. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It has to be in your Cache.
http://wkti.listenerpoints.com/wkti/techhelp/ie_clearCache.html

But having my own server has some advantages so if you want to use this to snag the Windows update feel free.
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/dompatch206.exe

[Gandalf Parker]

Black Forest, Hoburg and Trollheim

I think these are perfect. Black Forest is great to play with and a definate good choice for a theme. Hoburg and Trollheim are very interesting but not really theme material. Much better as mods. Thank You Illwinter.

I think Black Forest has replaced my favorite "sneaking armies" choices of Pangea and Man(Tuatha)

[ceremony]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
New 2.06 bug: You can recruit while under siege. The gold you spend is used. But the units mysteriously never show up. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This was true in v 2.02 as well.

[Saber Cherry]

New 2.06 bug: The deepest cave in the province can be found twice. I suggest the second one be called "The Second-Deepest Cave In The Province" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Keir Maxwell]

Downloading now. Thanks guys!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Cheers

Keir

[Kristoffer O]

I believe you get the gold back, but I'm not certain.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
I believe you get the gold back, but I'm not certain. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. I spent all my gold on Hydra Hatchlings (3000 stored up) and it all disappeared, along with the queue.

[Saber Cherry]

2.06 Undocumented Features:

1) Pillage Bonus now has an icon!

(as an aside - I thought Barbarian Lords were suppose to count as +25 men, but they just get a +5 bonus, same as Chiefs)

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Arryn:
Minor gripe: Pre-patch the arrow keys would auto-repeat when held down. Now they do not. This is one "fix" we could have done without methinks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They work for me... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They're working again as they should. Very odd though. All I did was exit the game and come back in ...

[HJ]

Fire susceptibility seems inconsistent. All liches, bog mummy, and mummies reanimated from HoF get it, but not mummies reanimated by Amon Hotep or Desert Tombs units (which are also mummified).

[Sammual]

Originally posted by apoger:
>So you won't remove anything from the game by making a modified pythium. Just enable that mod when you want that variety of pythium.


A bunch of players get together and want to play. They decide to use the "apoger" mod.
This mod offers an alternate theme for every nation.
No player will then have access to ANY standard nation since they have all be replaced by my mod.


What I want, and I don't think this is out of line is;


A bunch of players get together and want to play.
They decide to use the "apoger" mod.
This mod offers an alternate theme for every nation.
The players that choose to utilize one of my new themes simply takes it from the theme menu when making their nation.
Players that don't want to use one of the extra themes just ignore it and play what they want.


This is a HUGE difference. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can have any number of mods affecting a game. Keep each mod to one nation so they player of that nation can choose if he wants to use that mod or not.

Sammual

[Sammual]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
New 2.06 bug: You can recruit while under siege. The gold you spend is used. But the units mysteriously never show up. Where do they go? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It has always been this way for me.

Sammual

Yay, Carrion Woods is playable now!

Sorta.

I'll reserve the rest of my judgement as I play through it more. More than worth the wait. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Keir Maxwell]

I haven't had a chance to look at the new features in full but I do have a few questions.

1. Is there any plan to change the way orders work allowing some sort of fire and attack, or firing on the hold part of "hold and attack" or while not otherwise engaged on guard commander?

My concern is Tien Chi Cavalry - particularily Barbarian Kingdoms. Is it intended that at any battle you either use them as lancers of archers or is there a way of getting around this I have been unable to discover?

Mictlan - is there any plans to improve Mictlan?

While I have achieved moderate success with Mictlan it was after many, many abysmal failures and was harder to achieve than dramatic success is with most other races. Part of what kept me trying was the hope that Mictlan would be patched and my cunning idea's would become more viable. If Mictlan (read Barbarian Kingdoms and Spring and Autumn) is finished as is it would be good to know so I can stop waiting and hoping.

I find it hard to celebrate the arrival of new themes when we already have alot of new themes/nations and some of them seem to be badly in need of work. I lost alot of my designs to this patch and I'm not sure that I have gained many new possibilities. My two favourite nations remain bottom dwellers who struggle to utilise their thematic advantages (the two Tien Chi themes) and dual bless effect races have been slaughtered.

Oh well I guess its time to take a break from playing anyway and put some serious work into the "War of the Rings" mod.

Thanks for the mod capability - I do really appreciate what you given us with this.

cheers

Keir

[General Tacticus]

Yes ! Thank you !

(Mis)fortune affects event frequency with 5% per step.
Order/Turmoil affects event frequency with 5% per step. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, I can see that this reduces the influence of order on event frequency. But how does (Mis)fortune affects event frequency ? Does +1 Fortune gives +5% or -5% ? And +1 Misfortune ?

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
I lost alot of my designs to this patch and I'm not sure that I have gained many new possibilities. My two favourite nations remain bottom dwellers who struggle to utilise their thematic advantages (the two Tien Chi themes) and dual bless effect races have been slaughtered.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What are you talking about? What has been done to weaken those nations/themes, and how was dual blessing weakened?

[Keir Maxwell]

Saber:

My first reaction to dom2 was to build lots of pretenders with over the top magic - two 9's being commen. Someone else described the two 9 combo as dual bless effects races and I picked up the name.

Obviously paying for two 9's is really hard and you end up with really bad dominion scales. However you didn't suffer too much because order3 misfortune3 still gives you the money you need and safety from bad events - being so dependant on your home province makes the thought of flood really horrible. I can't imagine I will be playing order3/misfortune3 as its roughly the same as it was in dom1 and that was brutal. Basically its 120 design points gone from a very tight race design that is already playing with most scales at -3.

Sure you can now play order0/misfortune0. Its scary in terms of events and only the best of the races will cope with the loss of income as the start can be hard with that little gold.

At the bottom line its a cost benifit thing and its just looking alot more tempting to play with a 9 or 10 and maybe one 4. Still Neifel dual bless might be able to get by - now that I know the Woodsmen work well the race is alot more versatile. I'm not ruling out other posibilites reshaping but a large body of my previously successful designs are history.

Many races will have been reshaped or trashed by this patch and the more radical designs will suffer worst. Sort of inevitable once it became clear that the order3/misfortune3 combo was so powerful.

C'est La Vie - I had lots fun with extravegent bless effects while the opportunity existed.

As for the Tien Chi themes nothing has been done to them specifically (the problem) but in general they have become a bit stronger as while turmoil/luck races haven't got better order races have got worse. While this is good the problems with them remain.

I have done okish (ie not anything like one of the more powerful races) with BK but thats by relying on the foot arhers and spearmen not the barbarian horse the race should be defined by - and you are left a bit hanging as the game goes on and your early armies become redundant. I believe the horse need the ability to fire and attack to be used efficiently and at present they are a bit of a mockery of the Xiongnu they represent.

Spring and Autumn was weaker than BK in my tests (in threads on the subject others had similar experiances) and the chariot mounted commanders with nothing to support them are very frustrating. Spring and Autumn China had large bodies of charging chariots according to ancients rules so why be so miserly on them in a fantasy?

Cheers

Keir

[ January 13, 2004, 03:58: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

This only means that you can no longer ignore one scale while reaping the rewards of another.

I don't feel this is particularly weakening, but I've never been a fan for making some ugly monstrosity of a pretender with 90% of my points into him.

Even taking a 9 Path pretender sometimes makes me cring and wonder where I'm scraping the points up from. So that's more of a personal bias and I don't fault Keir's thinking for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

IMHO it makes for just as many options, just not as 'complete' in the mindset of some of the players (If I'm doing a blessing, I might as well go hog wild!)

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Zen:
Even taking a 9 Path pretender sometimes makes me cring and wonder where I'm scraping the points up from. So that's more of a personal bias and I don't fault Keir's thinking for it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What one 9? Pah - thats nothing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

It is one of those head first things and once you get you feet wet it looks different - sorta upside down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . When I find myself with really strong scales I start to worry if I'm not being a bit to cautious/old fashioned. Dom1 is dead long live dom2!

Cheers

Keir

[Kristoffer O]

>Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
>I haven't had a chance to look at the new features in full but I do have a few questions.

>1. Is there any plan to change the way orders work allowing some sort of fire and attack, or firing on the hold part of "hold and attack" or while not otherwise engaged on guard commander?

Plans exist.

>My concern is Tien Chi Cavalry - particularily Barbarian Kingdoms. Is it intended that at any battle you either use them as lancers of archers or is there a way of getting around this I have been unable to discover?

>Mictlan - is there any plans to improve Mictlan?

Considerations, yes.

>While I have achieved moderate success with Mictlan it was after many, many abysmal failures and was harder to achieve than dramatic success is with most other races. Part of what kept me trying was the hope that Mictlan would be patched and my cunning idea's would become more viable. If Mictlan (read Barbarian Kingdoms and Spring and Autumn) is finished as is it would be good to know so I can stop waiting and hoping.

Keep hoping http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

>I find it hard to celebrate the arrival of new themes when we already have alot of new themes/nations and some of them seem to be badly in need of work. I lost alot of my designs to this patch and I'm not sure that I have gained many new possibilities. My two favourite nations remain bottom dwellers who struggle to utilise their thematic advantages (the two Tien Chi themes) and dual bless effect races have been slaughtered.

Dual bless effect races slaughtered?

>Oh well I guess its time to take a break from playing anyway and put some serious work into the "War of the Rings" mod.

Good!

>Thanks for the mod capability - I do really appreciate what you given us with this.

Yore welcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Pocus]

a note about the patch and the changes done or not done... I was thinking that some of the weakest themes would get a little boost. There was a good amount of discussion regarding blood of humans for example, and it was in the end rather obvious that it lacked a bit compared to standard Abysia. That just a top of my head, but Return of the Raptor comes close. Themes add fun, but should somehow be on par - power speaking - with the main theme, or they will be restricted to single players play, where optimization is not of the upmost importance.

Whats more, tweaking a theme reckoned as slightly weak can be done in a matter of seconds. If you want a quick fix for blood of humans, *while* staying on the safe side of not giving him too much power, just add 25 design points when you take it. There is absolutly no chance it comes overpowered with that (in fact it should get 50 points, as you loose one heat scale with some additional capabilities).

I hope it will makes in the second patch. Do you maintain a master list of changes?

Thanks for your time.

I think a little more disturbing would be creating themes that are drastically more powerful as opposed to the normal themes (Read: Conq of the Sea with the Royal Navigators (2 Air, 2 Astral, 1 Random) ?! and the Chartmaker Communion Slaves as opposed to normal, Fires of Faith, or Diabolic Faith Marginon)

I need more time to look at it, but I'd hope they would do more balacing towards making the themes 'evenish'

[ January 13, 2004, 10:29: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Pocus]

Standard Marignon also had the infamous Knights of the Chalice, which are rather nice when etheralized (add a bless effect as the cherry on the pie). Also Astral fire is a really tough spell. All in all nothing strike me as unbalanced when you compare CotS / Marignon.

Ulm BF is really good and funny, except that the Vampire Count can be recruited too early.

What bother me more is the previous themes which were not tweaked despite hundred if not dozen of billions (what, I exagerate?) Posts about them. Desert Tombs, Blood of Humans, Return of the Raptor...

[apoger]

>What bother me more is the previous themes which were not tweaked despite hundred if not dozen of billions (what, I exagerate?) Posts about them. Desert Tombs, Blood of Humans, Return of the Raptor...


Would be less of an issue if the mod tools allowed access to themes...

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

- CotS costs 25 more points
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, Fires of Faith costs 50 Points and Diabolical Faith costs 0. Diabolical Faith has forced Turmoil.


- CotS lost most of its ability to generate extra early income through alchemy<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1/4 the Ability to be exact. And Fire gems are worth what 15 gold? (Without items that is). So a net loss of 45 Gold per turn (if you always alchemize.

What you get is 2 Air, +1 Astral for that 45 Gold. Air has quite a few uses with summons/spells. And astral is good for forging, but yes probably an overall 'weaker'. Which is fine.

- Lost the wonderful flaming crossbows (Wind Guide is not nearly as effective, besides it's easier for the other Marignon themes to find air-1 mages to cast Wind Guide, it's much harder for CotS to find fire-2 mages for Flaming Arrows)<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, Royal Navigators have 1 random, getting 1 Earth is fairly easy and then you can make a Crystal Matrix, throw that on a High (or normal) Inquisitor ... You don't lose anything. Most of the time you are running a communion anyway and throwing in an Inquisitor isn't alot of work. It doesn't have the 'instant' access. But I use Flaming Xbows just as much as before. What you do lose is the ability to cast very many rituals like Fires from Afar or Summer Lions (if you wished.

- Diabolical Faith has access to Mind Duel-proof communion. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, which is one good thing it has in it's favor. It has quite a bit against it though (while still being fun, I admit).

- (minor point, but still) Air/astral is a bit redundant: Teleport/Cloud Trapeze on the same unit. Can't really see a synergy in air+astral. At least fire+astral gave Astral Fires. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I enjoy the synergy between Air and Astral for the fact of Orb Lightning, Paralyze, Astral Healing, Antimagic, Stellar Cascades, etc.

With the Chartmaker being 90 gold vs a Witch Hunter 150 gold he's a cheap communion slave. Also base Marignon it costs 270 to try to get a Random pick while 200 with CotS.

Combine that with the fact they can quickstrike over water and IMO I feel they are much more versatile and adaptable than Base, Fires of Faith, and unless the Harliquin or Turmoil is tweaked with Diabolic Faith.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

- (minor point, but still) Air/astral is a bit redundant: Teleport/Cloud Trapeze on the same unit. Can't really see a synergy in air+astral. At least fire+astral gave Astral Fires. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Air and astral magic is necessary in navigation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
>Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
>1. Is there any plan to change the way orders work allowing some sort of fire and attack, or firing on the hold part of "hold and attack" or while not otherwise engaged on guard commander?

Plans exist.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yay!!! Double Yay!!!

And the best bit of this is that if you had come through with this change in the patch I doubt I could have resisted trying it out where as now I have no desire to play Tien Chi again until patched so I can concentrate on the modding I should be doing.

cheers

Keir

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Pocus:

What bother me more is the previous themes which were not tweaked despite hundred if not dozen of billions (what, I exagerate?) Posts about them. Desert Tombs, Blood of Humans, Return of the Raptor... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sloppyness on my part. Haven't thought much on Blood of Humans lately.

I do not get the impression that Desert tombs is considered a major problem. True, there has been some discussions and it is possibly strong, but I havn't heard very much complaints compared to the BoH theme.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by apoger:
>What bother me more is the previous themes which were not tweaked despite hundred if not dozen of billions (what, I exagerate?) Posts about them. Desert Tombs, Blood of Humans, Return of the Raptor...


Would be less of an issue if the mod tools allowed access to themes... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You never give up, do you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ January 13, 2004, 20:32: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

- (minor point, but still) Air/astral is a bit redundant: Teleport/Cloud Trapeze on the same unit. Can't really see a synergy in air+astral. At least fire+astral gave Astral Fires. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Air and astral magic is necessary in navigation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, I didn't complain at all - just wanted to point out the reasons that make me think Conquerors of the Sea isn't _drastically_ superior to the Marignon main theme.

Kristoffer,

I think he main reason you don't hear much about Desert Tombs is it is still semi-decent because of the base strength of the entire Nation (C'tis).

With the new change of having fire instead of nature for the Desert Tombs Sauromancers who knows. I personally like Nature quite a bit for them, but this way they are assured to be able to cast Banefire (which is nice but high on the research chain). Though you still do have Shamans.

[apoger]

>You never give up, do you

Nope, and while I'm at it, how about taking a poke at some questions from earlier that have been buried by other Posts... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


Three questions involving luck and modding.

#1 Luck scale changes the frequency of events. Right now by 5% per level of scale. I have seen people state that this means that misfortune raises the chances of events and luck supresses. Is this correct? Or is this 5% a positive modifier in both directions? If it isn't a positive modifier in both directions, is there anyway to mod the scale so it can be?


#2 Luck scales currently affect quantity and quality of events. Some players have suggested adding economic modifiers to luck. I'd like to do some experimenting with such ideas (and other scale effects that are non-standard). Is there anyway to do this? Or are we locked into what the scales affect, and only have the ability to wiggle the percentages?


#3 The mod tools seems to allow the adjustment of scales via overall numbers that get applied across the board. It has been suggested that it might be good to have the scales ramp up in effect, I.E. instead of Order being a 7% adjustment per level of scale, possibly make it +7% for +1, +12% for +2, and +17 for +3. I am totally unsure if this is a balanced approach, however I want to know if it's even possible to experiment with.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pocus:

What bother me more is the previous themes which were not tweaked despite hundred if not dozen of billions (what, I exagerate?) Posts about them. Desert Tombs, Blood of Humans, Return of the Raptor... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sloppyness on my part. Haven't thought much on Blood of Humans lately.

I do not get the impression that Desert tombs is considered a major problem. True, there has been some discussions and it is possibly strong, but I havn't heard very much complaints compared to the BoH theme. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">its difficult to reach a concensus, even on blatant issues like Mister W. (you know the guy in head of the tiny country) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Perhaps a poll is in order, to know what people think of the themes. Thats true that DT didnt appears weak in the eye of many players, but it is mainly because themes are still fresh, and few people really tried to compares exhaustively advantages and weakness of them (it doesnt matter that much if you play SP, and few MP games have been completed also). If was done with BoH, because its a theme very easy to compare to standard Abysia. Its harder to do for themes which stray far from the standard nation.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

- CotS costs 25 more points
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True, Fires of Faith costs 50 Points and Diabolical Faith costs 0. Diabolical Faith has forced Turmoil.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both of them are weaker than standard and CotS. Wanted to point out the difference between those two here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
- CotS lost most of its ability to generate extra early income through alchemy<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">1/4 the Ability to be exact.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, it lost 3/4 (produces only 1 fire gem instead of 4). That's why I wrote 'most'.

And Fire gems are worth what 15 gold? (Without items that is). So a net loss of 45 Gold per turn (if you always alchemize.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wrote 'lost the option to...', not 'lost 45 gold'. Early it may give you an edge, typically claiming mercs for yourself.

What you get is 2 Air, +1 Astral for that 45 Gold. Air has quite a few uses with summons/spells. And astral is good for forging, but yes probably an overall 'weaker'. Which is fine.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fine yes - except it won't help you getting those early mercs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">- Lost the wonderful flaming crossbows (Wind Guide is not nearly as effective, besides it's easier for the other Marignon themes to find air-1 mages to cast Wind Guide, it's much harder for CotS to find fire-2 mages for Flaming Arrows)<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, Royal Navigators have 1 random, getting 1 Earth is fairly easy and then you can make a Crystal Matrix, throw that on a High (or normal) Inquisitor ... You don't lose anything. Most of the time you are running a communion anyway and throwing in an Inquisitor isn't alot of work. It doesn't have the 'instant' access. But I use Flaming Xbows just as much as before. What you do lose is the ability to cast very many rituals like Fires from Afar or Summer Lions (if you wished.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With Marignon my early expansion relies on mass crossbows. Thus I beeline for Enchantment 4, period. No time to lose researching construction to get these matrices, and wait for the right Navigator to forge them. I want Flaming Arrows by turn 10 or close. Later than that is too late for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> - Diabolical Faith has access to Mind Duel-proof communion. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, which is one good thing it has in it's favor. It has quite a bit against it though (while still being fun, I admit).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fun yes. And thanks to alchemy, can up its initial from ~160 to ~220, and remain competitive in the first 10 turns with the Order+3 nations - losing 4 gems in the process but with the benefits of Luck+3.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">- (minor point, but still) Air/astral is a bit redundant: Teleport/Cloud Trapeze on the same unit. Can't really see a synergy in air+astral. At least fire+astral gave Astral Fires. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I enjoy the synergy between Air and Astral for the fact of Orb Lightning, Paralyze, Astral Healing, Antimagic, Stellar Cascades, etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All of them but Orb Lightning are accessible to the standard theme. Orb Lightning doesn't require astral, so where's the synergy? Orb Lightning can be totally negated. Orb Lighning is Evocation 5 and requires only 1 air, by the time you get it it's often available by other means than expensive Navigator or Grand Masters who have better things to than cast level-1 spells. The list of independent mages who can give your air-1 for less than 200 gold is quite impressive. Astral Fires OTOH is hard to resist and not as readily available as Orb Lightning on independent mages, and with Marignon I like to have this spell readily available to deal with certains threats.

With the Chartmaker being 90 gold vs a Witch Hunter 150 gold he's a cheap communion slave. Also base Marignon it costs 270 to try to get a Random pick while 200 with CotS.

Combine that with the fact they can quickstrike over water and IMO I feel they are much more versatile and adaptable than Base, Fires of Faith, and unless the Harliquin or Turmoil is tweaked with Diabolic Faith. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, communion and seafaring are nice to have, but I doubt they'll help you expand as fast as Flaming Arrows. Conqueror is a good theme, as good as the main theme. But you failed to convince me it's _DRASTICALLY_ superior to the main theme - and that's all I wanted to point out.

[Edit: typos]

[ January 13, 2004, 21:28: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Kristoffer O]

>Three questions involving luck and modding.

>#1 Luck scale changes the frequency of events. Right now by 5% per level of scale. I have seen people state that this means that misfortune raises the chances of events and luck supresses. Is this correct? Or is this 5% a positive modifier in both directions? If it isn't a positive modifier in both directions, is there anyway to mod the scale so it can be?

Positive in both directions. Misfortune increases chances of bad events as do fortune.

>#2 Luck scales currently affect quantity and quality of events. Some players have suggested adding economic modifiers to luck. I'd like to do some experimenting with such ideas (and other scale effects that are non-standard). Is there anyway to do this? Or are we locked into what the scales affect, and only have the ability to wiggle the percentages?

Currently wiggling only.

>#3 The mod tools seems to allow the adjustment of scales via overall numbers that get applied across the board. It has been suggested that it might be good to have the scales ramp up in effect, I.E. instead of Order being a 7% adjustment per level of scale, possibly make it +7% for +1, +12% for +2, and +17 for +3. I am totally unsure if this is a balanced approach, however I want to know if it's even possible to experiment with.

Not currently. In the prehistoric age (1997) scales costed 10 for the first step, 20 for thesecond and 30 for the third (or perhaps it was the effects, I do not remember). I think we were concerned that a progressive cost would make people go for -3 and never use -1 scales. Progressive costs in one direction might have some merits and do exist in some games where you choose attributes.

3/4 Yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I worded it wrong.

Stellar Fires is nice don't get me wrong, but I don't know if you are seeing my point, let say it more clearly.

My main point with the Air is the Communion effect with Orb Lightning. The power of casting the spell (Yes a Level 1 Spell) in a communion increases the power of the spell (Suddenly casting 3, 4, 5 lightning bolts, with a higher precision) and reduced the fatigue (so they can cast more and don't kill slaves).

Because you customarily go for something with normal Marginon doesn't mean you might not go for something else with another theme. That can be just as effective http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Instead of Enchantment 4 it might be another path.

Maybe I don't see it because its after your initial expansion and you don't initially get the spell it's usefulness is limited to only a few turns before it can be totally negated (Storm/SoS). Part of the reason I don't put all my eggs in the xbow basket.

Also you seem to be saying that the early money might be suddenly overpowering vs mercs, but I've found in my MP games, that unless you are a few select nations, you arn't going to get mercs (Ermor, Ulm for example) even if you alchemize 4 gems instead of 1. (That is for the most part, the people I play with bid on mercs and know their usefulness, they don't forget like others may)

This isn't saying it doesn't happen, but when I think "I'm alchemizing" it's not for mercs as much as it is for cash I'm going to use.

Saying Drastically may be a bit much, getting quite a bit while only losing very little (Sacred units)

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:

My main point with the Air is the Communion effect with Orb Lightning.

The power of casting the spell (Yes a Level 1 Spell) in a communion increases the power of the spell (Suddenly casting 3, 4, 5 lightning bolts, with a higher precision) and reduced the fatigue (so they can cast more and don't kill slaves).<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, got the synergy part http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Still, I'm far from convinced that 1 Royal Navigator casting level-4 Orb Lightning with 4 Chartmaker slaves to support him is better than 1 level-2 OL + 4 level-1 OL. That's an extra round spent on communion, and 2 less bolts. Add 4 more slaves, and you have 5 bolts were you could have 9 - and it only gets worse as you add more slaves who could cast these OL themselves. OL has a relatively short range and air mages get precision bonus, so your shooting is unlikely to suffer much from inaccuracy. If that's surgical precision you want, better have an extra Navigator or Chartmaker cast Wind Guide. That spell should be on your "research ASAP" list anyway. And Last, OL is a low-fatigue spell, so fatigue isn't a good reason to use a communion to reduce fatigue by a few points.

Because you customarily go for something with normal Marginon doesn't mean you might not go for something else with another theme. That can be just as effective http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Instead of Enchantment 4 it might be another path.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the crossbows are the same in both themes, and in both themes they're the best troops at your disposal for a fast early expansion. With Conquerors I could beeline for Wind Guide to good effect, for the same research cost as Flaming Arrows. Is it what I'll do with Conquerors? Almost certainly (unless I can imagine something better). Is it as effective as Flaming Arrows? Unfortunately, no. Not by a long shot.

Maybe I don't see it because its after your initial expansion and you don't initially get the spell it's usefulness is limited to only a few turns before it can be totally negated (Storm/SoS). Part of the reason I don't put all my eggs in the xbow basket.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Storm doesn't totally negate crossbow fire, it just make it very inaccurate. Flaming crossbows will still maim deep concentrations of troops to some extent. And by the time I'll see Staves of Storms, I'll have Wind Guide anyway, to partially counter Storms. Plus, only a couple nations can forge Staves of Storms as fast as Marignon can churn out crossbow armies, at least until midgame. And be assured I'll have a few other eggs in my basket at that point. That's more than enough to justify researching Enchantment 4 and recruiting crossbows.

Also you seem to be saying that the early money might be suddenly overpowering vs mercs, but I've found in my MP games, that unless you are a few select nations, you arn't going to get mercs (Ermor, Ulm for example) even if you alchemize 4 gems instead of 1. (That is for the most part, the people I play with bid on mercs and know their usefulness, they don't forget like others may)[/QB]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So what's your point? That in your games, Marignon never get mercs? Sorry, I'm a bit confused here. Mercs are great meatshields for the kind of Marignon I play, and I use them - although not only for that task.

This isn't saying it doesn't happen, but when I think "I'm alchemizing" it's not for mercs as much as it is for cash I'm going to use.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahem, you mean spending that gold on mercs isn't really "using" it? Strange. Anyway, remember I wrote something along the lines "I typically use this extra early on mercs", and I'm sure I wrote 'typically' - I can also find other uses for that extra gold, but early in the game mercs is the most common example.

Saying Drastically may be a bit much, getting quite a bit while only losing very little (Sacred units) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, 'quite a bit' vs 'very little' still sounds too much like 'drastically' to me, but let's agree to disagree. I stick to my position that the themes are fairly equal in potential, and that the main theme has an easier early game.

[Edit: typos]

[ January 13, 2004, 23:04: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Keir Maxwell]

Desert Tombs has problems? I didn't find that the case. Sure its not as good as C'tis base but not much is. I don't think themes have to be as strong as the base races as different races arn't as strong as each other. DT worked fine when I played it. Pretty darn tight really and giving up on nature for fire on Sauromancers seems appropriate as you don't need nature for supplies and in genreral the focus on the whole growing thing has declined.

Dual bless effect races again as Kristoffer still seemed all at sea on what I mean:

All the successful dual bless effect races I designed (two 9's) where order3/misfortune2-3 races. It was the only way I had found to get the points for the magic and keep enough gold to pay for expensive sacred troops. In my opinion this is not a realistic option anymore so its back to square one and the only one of my dual bless effect races that I'm fairly confident will still work ok is Jotun. Most people felt that two 9's was hopeless in the first place so my opinion is not a conservative one.

cheers

Keir

[ January 13, 2004, 23:58: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Zen:
I think a little more disturbing would be creating themes that are drastically more powerful as opposed to the normal themes (Read: Conq of the Sea with the Royal Navigators (2 Air, 2 Astral, 1 Random) ?! and the Chartmaker Communion Slaves as opposed to normal, Fires of Faith, or Diabolic Faith Marginon)

I need more time to look at it, but I'd hope they would do more balacing towards making the themes 'evenish' <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I need to look at it more myself, but I think that 'drastically' is a bit exagerated:

- CotS costs 25 more points

- CotS lost most of its ability to generate extra early income through alchemy

- Lost the wonderful flaming crossbows (Wind Guide is not nearly as effective, besides it's easier for the other Marignon themes to find air-1 mages to cast Wind Guide, it's much harder for CotS to find fire-2 mages for Flaming Arrows)

- Diabolical Faith has access to Mind Duel-proof communion.

- (minor point, but still) Air/astral is a bit redundant: Teleport/Cloud Trapeze on the same unit. Can't really see a synergy in air+astral. At least fire+astral gave Astral Fires.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
Desert Tombs has problems? I didn't find that the case. Sure its not as good as C'tis base but not much is. I don't think themes have to be as strong as the base races as different races arn't as strong as each other. DT worked fine when I played it.
Keir <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I prefer to have themes very close, if not on par, with the base race. Otherwise diversity will be lessened in multiplayer. You can do fine with a race which is weaker than an other, but its not a proof that nothing should be done.

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
All the successful dual bless effect races I designed (two 9's) where order3/misfortune2-3 races. It was the only way I had found to get the points for the magic and keep enough gold to pay for expensive sacred troops. In my opinion this is not a realistic option anymore so its back to square one and the only one of my dual bless effect races that I'm fairly confident will still work ok is Jotun. Most people felt that two 9's was hopeless in the first place so my opinion is not a conservative one.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Caelum, Abyssia, and Machaka all have powerful holy troops and can take +3 temp. Abyssia is even semi-immune to Death. Water/Nature for Caelum, Fire/Earth for Abyssia, and Fire/Earth or Death/Nature for Machaka are doable without crippling scales. Astral/Fire is cheaper but less useful IMO. Caelum can take drain easily (cheap high-level mages and owl quills) and Machaka can too (Randoms for owl quills, and eventually skull mentors with 2 death).

I think dual-blessings are still possible, but you have to skrimp on the castle OR order OR productivity... so your capitol-only sacred should only be limited by gold OR resources, not both.

P.S. Ashen Ermor can go triple-9, a 4, and still have 9 dominion and massive research. That makes some hefty Knights of the Sepulchre...

P.P.S. I think I'll test them=)

[ January 14, 2004, 07:22: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Zen:
Kristoffer,

I think he main reason you don't hear much about Desert Tombs is it is still semi-decent because of the base strength of the entire Nation (C'tis).

With the new change of having fire instead of nature for the Desert Tombs Sauromancers who knows. I personally like Nature quite a bit for them, but this way they are assured to be able to cast Banefire (which is nice but high on the research chain). Though you still do have Shamans. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I think DT could have nicer magical versatility now. Doesn't it also give them Skeleton Archers, and with the right booster items, King of Banefires? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif And they still have Shaman for vinemen summoning.

Plus they have a use for their fire gem income, which is always nice. And fire magic always goes well with a heat scale (sauromancers have decent PREC too). A sauromancer with his random in astral or blood can lead a shaman communion too.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Caelum, Abyssia, and Machaka all have powerful holy troops and can take +3 temp. Abyssia is even semi-immune to Death. Water/Nature for Caelum, Fire/Earth for Abyssia, and Fire/Earth or Death/Nature for Machaka are doable without crippling scales. Astral/Fire is cheaper but less useful IMO. Caelum can take drain easily (cheap high-level mages and owl quills) and Machaka can too (Randoms for owl quills, and eventually skull mentors with 2 death).
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Go for it Saber - I think you are mostly wrong but I'm certainly keen to see other peoples experiance. I have tried all the things you mention except Ermor, which I don't really play, and my opinion is based on having tried these options and many, many, more. Sure you can come up with a race - but is it a decent one?

I would warn you that there are major problems involved in treating nations such as Abysia as Bless Effects nations. 1 strat move troops who can only be built in their capital make a really frustrating basis for a race as the game progresses. With Abysia its the mages you have to work on and they are so sap with their fire magic that it doesn't really seem worth it in my tests with dual bless effects but one earth9 is a goer.

In the end there is only one way to get an answer to the impact of the patch on dual bless effects races and thats to play them. I have played them extensively pre patch and IMO this catagory of races has been butchered to such a degree that we only speak of it because it was once viable. Sure you will get 1or2 two 9 races but I don't think it will be enough to talk of a Category of race designs. In truth dual bless effects races were borderline pre the patch with only the best looking like they have what it takes for MP.

I'm not really annoyed about what I've lost. Johan O. made it fairly clear awhile back that he didn't see any problem with returning to the old scales and its impact on dual bless effect designs would be minimal. While I think he was wrong in his assessment at least I knew what was coming. I didn't enjoy giving up on my main area of race design but I can cope.

Ciao

Keir
[I edited the post as it was too grumpy, I guess I'm missing my toys - Keir]

[ January 15, 2004, 00:50: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]