Improving the Arena Death Match event [Archive]

General Tacticus

January 21st, 2004, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by NTJedi:
Currently the Arena Death match really isn't worth sending anyone.I always send someone! <hr /></blockquote>Put it's not worth sending someone you care for, since (at least in my 16 Impossible AI games) he'll be up agasint an average of 2 SC pretenders, 5 souped up prophets, 2 good commanders, and assorted nobodies from smart AIs). Somehow, since I don't use SC pretenders myself, I never have anyone that has a prayer of winning, and anyway it's not really worth trying to make one. Hey, to win, I'd have to deck him out in items far better than that trident anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Gandalf Parker

January 21st, 2004, 08:42 PM

I had the Master Assassin merc when one came up. The guy was too far from my borders at the time so I sent him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Ive done the same with merc leaders that had used up all their troops.

Doesnt anyone else always keep cursed items and exploding amulets around just in case of an arena?

Thilock_Dominus

January 21st, 2004, 08:42 PM

Feel free to add ideas.... 4. A Provins as a prize (in some cases, not if there aren't any independent provins avaible)
5. Become a prophet (the commander who fought the duel)

[ January 21, 2004, 18:44: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

PrinzMegaherz

January 21st, 2004, 08:46 PM

1. the eyes of god.
2. a very powerful hero (a long forgotten master of the arena)
3. decreasing unrest (because you are so popular)

Thilock_Dominus

January 21st, 2004, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by NTJedi:
Feel free to add ideas.... Hoburg cheerleaders and pom pom dryads! <hr /></blockquote>Not without the options to recruit the Teletubbies(c) as commanders! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Taqwus

January 21st, 2004, 08:51 PM

I've prepped a Bane with a bane blade, totem shield (eye shield would be even more evil, perhaps), fever fetish and lycanthropy talisman just for the Arena at times.

SurvivalistMerc

January 21st, 2004, 09:00 PM

I sometimes send a shaman with orders to just cast curse a few times in hopes of getting an AI SC.

A couple of times I've even had the shaman win.

I've had times that I sent a guy with an eye of aiming, but even though he was slain by a commander, the other commander didn't get the eye (empty misc. slots present).

NTJedi

January 21st, 2004, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Doesnt anyone else always keep cursed items and exploding amulets around just in case of an arena? With only one unit walking away from this match the exploding amulet won't change much of the result. From what I've seen the winner usually wins from far away by casting 'animate dead' or 'soul slay' or some other powerful spell. Even if you explode and kill the other fella... there's a very very good chance that enemy wasn't going to win anyways.

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
I always send someone! WHY !?!??

The chances of winning are very slim unless you're going to risk an important SC or prophet. The AI opponents are sending their pretenders, prophets and strong necromancers... you'd be lucky to get a proper burial. Secondly the prize isn't that great... which is the reason for this topic.

The prize needs to be improved so players will have a desire to try and win.

Wauthan

January 21st, 2004, 10:24 PM

You get a decent magic item, permanent quickness enchantment is not to be ignored, and 100xp for the unit PLUS a chance to attack the AI pretenders with the commander of your choice. I always send someone to the arena with some simple magic equipment. So far I won a lot more matches than I lost and even taken out AI pretenders on a regular basis. If I use a vampire queen pretender I send her right in since she'll flatten anything except other undead.

I never send magic Users though. Just beefy fighters with good magic protection and armor.

That said I would very much like it if one would get a choice of rewards since the trident is not always the most interesting prize. Especially if your champion doesn't have any hands...

[ January 21, 2004, 20:29: Message edited by: Wauthan ]

Karacan

January 21st, 2004, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
WHY !?!??Because you get someone into the Hall Of Fame, unless it is very very late game and everyone got all the spots clustered up with their gods.

I like heroic abilities.

NTJedi

January 21st, 2004, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Wauthan:
You get a decent magic item, permanent quickness enchantment is not to be ignored,Not worth risking the LIFE of a good unit !

Originally posted by Wauthan:
PLUS a chance to attack the AI pretenders with the commander of your choice. There's no guarantee you'll even fight a pretender... you could die in the first battle. Secondly there's a good chance the pretender will die anyways... no reason to risk a good unit.
AI opponents shouldn't be sending their pretenders into the arena... hopefully one of the patches will fix this.

Originally posted by Wauthan:

I always send someone to the arena with some simple magic equipment. So far I won a lot more matches than I lost and even taken out AI pretenders on a regular basis. Try playing multiplayer

also... even if a player is able to win 75% of the time... it's still not worth risking the life of a commander and his magic items.
The prize is only one magic item and some experience.

[ January 21, 2004, 21:03: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

NTJedi

January 21st, 2004, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Karacan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by NTJedi:
WHY !?!??Because you get someone into the Hall Of Fame, unless it is very very late game and everyone got all the spots clustered up with their gods.

I like heroic abilities. <hr /></blockquote>Not worth risking the LIFE of a good unit.

January 21st, 2004, 11:09 PM

It is more than worth it in some circumstances, while not being worth it at all in others. Depends on what you consider an acceptable risk of loss for a unit.

The Death Match is like a pick and choose Assassination attempt. If you win you even get a prize.

Whether or not people think it's 'worth it' doesn't really matter, especially since there are so many different playstyles and perspectives about what is worth losing or their chance to win.

The best bet is to take it for what it is; and not for what you want it to be. Then gauge the results.

One thing I would like is the trident to make a unit Sacred if not otherwise. The Champion of the God in the Death Tournament would be sacred to a nation that won. He'd be a hero and revered across the land. Of course, Pretenders couldn't use that particular effect. Another good idea would be to change his "Title" to "the Champion" or "the Terminator!" or something similiar. Like how a prophet is changed.

[ January 21, 2004, 21:26: Message edited by: Zen ]

SurvivalistMerc

January 21st, 2004, 11:16 PM

I like Zen's perspective. And that's pretty much what I do. I will 75% chance send someone. Because quickness is very valuable, even for a mage.

The arena will sometimes even tell you the magic picks of your opposing pretenders. Not a bad thing at all.

I'm starting to wonder what folks do in MP.

Wauthan

January 21st, 2004, 11:35 PM

I'm starting to wonder how others play MP as well. Must be a hell of a close battle if you can't afford sending a mere warrior commander (no more than say 80 gp?) to the arena. If he dies then my opponent sent something even worse and lost use of that unit for one turn. If I win I get a better commander.

I don't think it's a big deal. Doesn't really have any impact on the game, save if people send their pretenders to duke it out. Perhaps I've got a bit of a carefree side. I usually don't play to win, just to have fun. Though I seem to win by endurance any way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif This game takes quite a lot of time and people get bored quick when someone seems to get an unbreakable upper hand.

In some games we all sent out pretenders with top gear into the arena in a sort of pokemon olympics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

NTJedi

January 22nd, 2004, 09:57 PM

Sending someone to the arena... means that unit has to be equipped to win otherwise you're just marching a unit to his death.
No matter how well a unit has been equipped an opponent may have a unit or pretender which is more powerful and wins. (especially during MP)

Thus the amount of equipment spent on sending a unit into the arena is usually not worth the value of the prize.
(prize= trident and experience)

The arena event would be LOTS more tempting and interesting if the prize included gold and/or gems and/or something else. Hopefully the next patch will make the arena event more worthwhile to attend.

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:

The arena will sometimes even tell you the magic picks of your opposing pretenders. Not a bad thing at all.
Whether or not you send someone to the arena any player is able to watch the battles and view the stats of pretenders and other units in the arena. Hopefully the patch will make the arena event more worthwhile to attend.

[ January 22, 2004, 19:57: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Lord Hammer

January 23rd, 2004, 02:29 AM

I agree that there must be a better reward for the risk involved. I almost always send my Pretender, or lately my Prophet, and may skip a match or two until i have good items. I always research construction first in every game no matter what race i'm playing and have only lost once http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . My suggestions are as follows...
1) A Blessed/Sacred Trident
2) A new level for Pretender or Prophet (priestly)
3) A giant shrubbery http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

velk

January 23rd, 2004, 02:45 AM

For a really easy to implement suggestion - how about the champion's trident gets an extra affect of having 1 gladiator melee unit show up per turn.

It makes sense from the point of view of them coming to learn from the greatest fighter in the world.

Alternatively have the trident give experience to troops in the province, or troops that are under command of it's owner...

Saber Cherry

January 23rd, 2004, 09:06 AM

I think you should get a pony...

And again, I think there should be a prelim round, where entrants have to beat a gladiator to enter the competition proper. Otherwise nasty people send one-shot booby-trapped assassins...

January 23rd, 2004, 09:15 AM

Alright. I'm trying to understand the argument of "Much more reward for the risk"

You get a weapon and can't change it out yes. But winning the Event gets you.

Quickness (the best 'ability' out there)
and 4 Stars of Experience (if they started with none) and a good percentage of the time a place in the HoF (if they were not in it already) so a HoF ability.

That is +4 Att, +4 Def, +4 Prec ...

I don't know if I want an event that has a reward so good that if I don't throw my pretender at it, that I have drastically weakened my position. As it is, the winner can pick an already decent supercombatant and put him in the Arena and have him come out even better and potentially much harder to kill.

If he had Sacred, or Always Blessed (like a Prophet) even better, but I don't think a big pile of gems or gold would be an answer for it.

General Tacticus

January 23rd, 2004, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
Alright. I'm trying to understand the argument of "Much more reward for the risk"

You get a weapon and can't change it out yes. But winning the Event gets you.

Quickness (the best 'ability' out there)
and 4 Stars of Experience (if they started with none) and a good percentage of the time a place in the HoF (if they were not in it already) so a HoF ability.

That is +4 Att, +4 Def, +4 Prec ...

I don't know if I want an event that has a reward so good that if I don't throw my pretender at it, that I have drastically weakened my position. As it is, the winner can pick an already decent supercombatant and put him in the Arena and have him come out even better and potentially much harder to kill.

If he had Sacred, or Always Blessed (like a Prophet) even better, but I don't think a big pile of gems or gold would be an answer for it. Well, for a start, that weapon is stuck on your commander, and replaces anything he might already have. It also forces you to go into the next arena.

But the real reason I never send anyone is that to win, you have to beat the AI's favorite SC. And I play at impossible, which means they have had extra design points to build them, and there are 16 of them to beat. Believe me, nothing short of a very well designed SC (or a very, very lucky, tough prophet that gets only fight against banishable pretenders) is going to win against them, and usually I don't have one on hand (I don't use SC pretenders). Even if I did, he'd have to be decked in something as good or better than the trident, and he could make xp (and kills) quite easily with no risk on the battlefields....
Anyway, I don't even have to send him to see most of the AIs SC die : there can be only one winner http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Of course, that's solo play against 16 impossible AI's. I am sure MP play against two human opponents (or easy AIs) is far different.

I send the best (unequipped) commander I can spare. Usually the nation equivalent of a Knight, who can sometimes get the drop against a powering up SC and kill him. But I have never come even close to winning.

The reward is good, yes. But to have a fair chance of winning I have to risk a lot more. The reward is just nor worth it...

Wendigo

January 23rd, 2004, 11:42 AM

I always send someone to the Arena, and I am talking multiplayer here.

The Arena is one of those small details in the game that add to the fun & immersion, it doesn't need any boosting with game-wining rewards.

General Tacticus

January 23rd, 2004, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Wendigo:
I always send someone to the Arena, and I am talking multiplayer here.

The Arena is one of those small details in the game that add to the fun & immersion, it doesn't need any boosting with game-wining rewards. I try to send at least a scout. I always look at the battle replays. I cheer while the AIs lose their pretenders stupidly.
But there is a problem when the human players are not even trying to win, only (sometimes) to curse/horror mark the AI. Either the AI must learn to reevaluate the reward (and stop sending pretenders when the mortality rate is around 80% for them in the Arena), or the reward must be boosted so the one that does survive really gets a leg up. Right now, for me, the Arena is a "Watch 3 AI pretenders die, laughing all the while" event.
One problem is that the prize must
- not be completely unbalancing when won on turn 3
- have any kind of worth on turn 40, when I'm already forging artifacts at a large discount...

I think that :
- Pretenders should be Banned from the Arena. Gods, or would-be Gods, have no business slugging it out for the amusement of mortals. And defeat would be far too embarassing for them to risk.
- The prize should bear some relation to the level of opposition, and the advancement of the game. For example, a gold prize equal to the gold value of every unit that was defeated in the arena (or part of that value), and/or the winner's choice of three magical items that belonged to the defeated ones, to be sent directly to the lab...

I agree that the arena adds dimension. It probably works fine in multiplayer (although in 17 mp game there will be a lot of competition and only one winner, but the same prize). But in SP, it's just a AI trap, and not because the player always win; in fact, he never does...

[ January 23, 2004, 10:35: Message edited by: General Tacticus ]

January 23rd, 2004, 01:18 PM

In reality the games I play don't Last much longer than 60+ turns. It's a rare game that Lasts beyond this, even in MP.

So the most I usually see this event is 2 or 3 times. At each stage in the game, that the trident is availiable there is always a reason for someone in my army to have that trident and experiance and possible ousting of someone out of the HoF.

It must just be my 'non SP' mentality as far as the event. While I enjoy them, I don't want the event to have such a dramatic impact on the game in multiple ways. It's enough for me that whoever wins gets unit enhancements as such.

Though it may be that you could upgrade the Trident as the tourny progresses. Have it gain a "On Hit" ability as the game progresses. I wouldn't mind the top end Trident having Life Drain. I'm sure someone would throw good units at the opportunity to have a Quickness, Lifedraining weapon especially late in the game.

Saxon

January 23rd, 2004, 03:08 PM

There is one more reward factor that has not been discussed. If you win, you deny the prize to your opponents. The value of this does depend on how you value the prize in the first place, but if you can stop one of your opponents getting an All Star and ensure you get it instead, it is value added.

Certain races are better suited to this than others. Jotun and Vanheim seem to make a mash out of me.

Does anyone know what happens if you use the bodyguard ring or if you have units on guard commander? It would be a bug if it allowed them in, but it might be worth checking.

General Tacticus

January 23rd, 2004, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Saxon:
There is one more reward factor that has not been discussed. If you win, you deny the prize to your opponents. They do a fine job denying it to each other : after all, only one in 16 win it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The value of this does depend on how you value the prize in the first place, but if you can stop one of your opponents getting an All Star and ensure you get it instead, it is value added.Ah, but I can't !! Against impossible AIs, the only way I can see to win it would be to make a SC pretender of my own, spend a few turns decking him in good magic items, and anyway he won't get the special ability from the hall of fame, and he stands a good chance of losing...
Of course, in MP, the problem is different, since I am not up against rabid AIs recklessly sending their steroid-enhanced pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Certain races are better suited to this than others. Jotun and Vanheim seem to make a mash out of me.Yes, on the rare occasion when a pretender does not win, a prophet from Jotunheim, Vanheim or Man is usually the winner

Does anyone know what happens if you use the bodyguard ring or if you have units on guard commander? It would be a bug if it allowed them in, but it might be worth checking. It doesn't work...

NTJedi

January 23rd, 2004, 07:33 PM

Yes the trident and experience are nice... but certainly not worth risking the life of a good commander.

Hopefully gems and/or gold and/or one of the other suggestions listed previously will be added to the reward of the arena.

Think of the long term events of attending 5 death match arenas. Even if you win 3 times... it means that you had 2 good commanders die! Having a good commander die is not worth the price of that trident... something more needs to be added to the arena prize.

mivayan

January 23rd, 2004, 09:12 PM

I had fun in the arena with living ermor, a 3astral/2 death grand thaumaturg casting raise skeletins, later paralyze and soul slay as well. Won the arena a few times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I have no idea how well the arena works in multiplayer though.

Norfleet

January 24th, 2004, 02:08 AM

Don't think of it as a deathmatch. Think of it as a free assassination attempt, where you can send any unit of your choice to attempt to assassinate a random enemy unit. You don't even need an assassin-capable unit, and your opponent doesn't get the benefit of any bodyguards. Against the AI, I don't see the deathmatch tournament as a place to get an unremovable trident or some experience and fame: I see it as a shot at assassinating some pretenders, prophets, and a few random nobodies.

Norfleet

January 24th, 2004, 02:10 AM

mivayan

January 24th, 2004, 04:07 AM

I've been wondering....if both units in a deathmatch die, who wins? Does it end in a draw? Or does the next combatant fight the now- deceased "winner", winning by default when his opponent begins dead? In one of the first fights in the arena both ai combatants died, the second from poison or something similar. They were both dropped from the tournament.

Saxon

January 24th, 2004, 10:14 AM

think one of the earlier people said it best. It depends on each game. I do not play impossible and I rarely play with more than four enemies. For me, it is not as hard to win and the chance that the winner will use it on me is very real. In a huge game at a high level, it is tough to win and is unlikely to bother you afterwards.

The game is played different ways by different people, so each part of it will have a different impact on each person. To judge a part based upon your own style may not give a balanced view of how it is viewed by all players. Your view is still valid, but it may not represent “the truth.”

My idea for a change would go the other way from many of the other suggestions. Instead of a huge prize to make it tempting, place a penalty on those who do not enter! “Gee Bilbo, I guess Gandolf isn’t as tough as we thought, he is afraid to take on the bad guys.” “Yes Sam, you are right. Why are we busting our butts to get the Ring to Mt. Doom when the big guy is slacking off? Let’s go back to the Prancing Pony and have a beer!”

Maybe a big jump in unrest for those who do not enter with smaller penalties for those who fight and lose. After all, everyone is bummed when your team is knocked out of the first round.

Gateway103

January 27th, 2004, 09:07 AM

Here is a spin-off thought,

How about a random or annual event where you can host an tournament for your own people?

Here is how it might work.
- you get a notice about the possibility of hosting such a tournament.

- the catch is that you need to pay gold & gem. You may also get to choose how big a tournament and what kind of tournament to host, which affects how much gold & gem you need to pay, perhaps even the type of participants allowed.

- the participants will mostly be your own leaders, the Pretender can't participate. You can send up to 4 of them (or some other number depending on the size of tournament you decided to pay for)

- in addition to your participants, up to 4 other independent leaders (not to be confused with Bogus and other scripted ones) of types that are recruitable anyway on the map will also participate (again, depend on how much resources you pay to "invite" them.) Their skill level will also depends on the type and size of tournament (can't really expect a powerful mage to come to your little "show" in your backyard)

- the participants don't fight each other, but against generated "target" (one of the reasons you pay gold & gem) that may or may not retaliate and/or rout. In the case of non-retaliating target, they may have such high HPs (and non-routabl) that failure to destroy them in 40 turns will result in participant routing and thus lose.

- Alternate thought, to prevent your units from dying, could make all targets non-routable, non-retaliating constructs, but may force the kind of weapons/attacks allowed (e.g. "Archery" section may allow all leaders to participate, but they are momentarily given a kind of bow and have the "Fire" override command assainged to them)

- winning participants are cycled to next "battle" where they face harder targets. do this for a number of times depending on the event you choose to host.

- Alternate thought 2, instead of losing and be disqualified, perhaps leaders can be assigned winning points on the # of targets they destroyed in battle round. But this would require a bit mroe extra coding work. So you tally all the points to determine the final winner.

- any participants suriving all the rounds are declared winners, and gain extra exps. (different scheme than Alternate thought 2)

- regardless of winning or losing, all participants gain extra exp just for participating.

- the best part, you may get to keep some or all of the participating independent leaders. The chance may depend on how well your leaders performed (a "wow! I sure can learn something from them" inspiration effect perhaps), the type of events you hosted (how big/impressive it is, which also mostly affect the quantity & quality of independent participants), and some other things. Should an independent participant be willing to join, he/she/it will ask for a price depending on their qualities and if they won or not. If you opt to pay, the paid leaders became yours permanently and appear in your capitol the next turn.

Anyway, this is a very rough idea to creates a spin-off event that more players may find interesting/fun/useful (getting a mage not in your national path and not recruitable can be really beneficial).

Hope you guys like the idea.

-Gateway103

General Tacticus

January 27th, 2004, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by Saxon:
think one of the earlier people said it best. It depends on each game. I do not play impossible and I rarely play with more than four enemies. For me, it is not as hard to win and the chance that the winner will use it on me is very real. In a huge game at a high level, it is tough to win and is unlikely to bother you afterwards.You're right ! I usually play impossible, but recently tried a huge map with easy opponents - I was testing stuff. The Arena Deathmatch comes up, and the AI didn't send anything better than an unequipped prophet... So the risk is vastly dependant on the difficulty level.
And of course versus 4 opponents you'll have only 2 or 3 match to win, against 17 you'll often have 6 or more...

The game is played different ways by different people, so each part of it will have a different impact on each person. To judge a part based upon your own style may not give a balanced view of how it is viewed by all players. Your view is still valid, but it may not represent “the truth.”
How true... I still say the reward should scale up with the number of competitors. But I must accept, I suppose, that against Impossible AIs it's impossible to win in the Arena...

My idea for a change would go the other way from many of the other suggestions. Instead of a huge prize to make it tempting, place a penalty on those who do not enter! “Gee Bilbo, I guess Gandolf isn’t as tough as we thought, he is afraid to take on the bad guys.” “Yes Sam, you are right. Why are we busting our butts to get the Ring to Mt. Doom when the big guy is slacking off? Let’s go back to the Prancing Pony and have a beer!”

Maybe a big jump in unrest for those who do not enter with smaller penalties for those who fight and lose. After all, everyone is bummed when your team is knocked out of the first round. There I must disagree. Bad enough that I have no chance of winning, but I really see no reason why there should be a big jump of unrest in my 50 province Empire just because some nobody is hosting a competition somewhere with a prize far inferior to what I forge each turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Hey, I have 10 unique artifacts gathering dust in my lab, not to mention a few jade knives if somebody is unhappy, who cares about that stupid trident ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Now that I think of it, I also have (finally) somebody who has a chance of winning. Plus the 16 AIs are now 11, one of which is mising a Pretender. Bring it on ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Lord_Devi

January 27th, 2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by rabelais:
is it just me or does an m look like rn if you don't look too carefully at it? Must be my monitor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif Hah, no it's not just your monitor =) I thought I saw the same thing.. hehe.. maybe we're just dirty people tho http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ~

[ January 27, 2004, 16:14: Message edited by: Lord_Devi ]

Catquiet

January 28th, 2004, 09:44 AM

In addition to improving the prize, you could attack the problem from another direction as well.

1. Each nation can choose a National Champion the same way they choose a Prophet. The Champions get Standard (+10), Recuperation, and Sacred. All National Champions must fight whenever the Arena event comes up.

2. All fighters entering the Arena auto-berserk (+1)

3. Prize is a Cursed misc. object Heart of a Champion that gives 30 morale and 5 reinvigoration.

[ January 28, 2004, 07:46: Message edited by: Catquiet ]

NTJedi

January 28th, 2004, 09:24 PM

Hopefully the developers can give us a clue if the prize will be enhanced for the Arena Death Match event in the next patch.

Right now it's not worth risking the life of a good commander for the prize.

Gateway103

January 30th, 2004, 06:46 PM

Should I take the lack of reply to my idea as a sign that people aren't interested?

-Gateway103

freykin

January 30th, 2004, 09:09 PM

Gateway: I personally think your idea is cool. I like little extras like that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

NTJedi

January 30th, 2004, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Gateway103:
Should I take the lack of reply to my idea as a sign that people aren't interested?

-Gateway103 Your idea would be nice and sounds interesting too... but I believe it would be more difficult to program into the game.

Certainly the arena death match event needs something more then that one trident and slice of experience.

NTJedi

May 25th, 2004, 03:04 AM

I know another patch is being developed... and it may be the Last patch so I'm bumping this topic.

Even a simple reward for winning the death match like 200 gold and +2 for each gem type would greatly encourage every human player to send someone.

HotNifeThruButr

May 25th, 2004, 03:25 AM

While I agree with Saber Cherry in that you should always send someone, just in case the comps (in all their mechanic glory) all send Eunuchs, friars, those dismounted undead kings, and scouts, I find it unprofitable to have someone prepped in case there's ever an arena match. I once bought a Lord Warden and had him train for years at a site just to never see the arena event again. I've just wasted a turn where I could build a witch and get extra research.

It'd be cool if you learn about the deathmatch 2 turns before it happens.

Norfleet

May 25th, 2004, 04:13 AM

Wait, Saber Cherry's alive? I thought he was killed in some sort of horrifically gruesome accident some months ago. Certainly I haven't seen him anywhere, unless you're referring to the Longdead Saber Cherry in the bottom of this ancient thread.

HotNifeThruButr

May 25th, 2004, 04:33 AM

he/she/it was actually raised as a Bane Lord. I mean, who could kick that much *** and become Longdead after death?

Cainehill

May 25th, 2004, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Hopefully the developers can give us a clue if the prize will be enhanced for the Arena Death Match event in the next patch.

Right now it's not worth risking the life of a good commander for the prize. But, especially against human players, it's worth risking a friar, a sage, an onyx priestess or some such. I've had at least one of each of those win (sometimes by default) against humans.

Zapmeister

May 25th, 2004, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Wait, Saber Cherry's alive?
I don't doubt that Saber Cherry is still alive, but it's quite possible that she has effectively given up Dominions. The Last time I looked, she was still active on the SEIV forum, but her Last post here was on April 1.

guybrush threepwood

May 25th, 2004, 04:45 PM

A simple way to make the deatchmatch slightly more relevant in the long run, might be to make the powers of the trident become dependent on the number of past deathmatches.

So first time: 200% quickness.
Second time: 200% quickness + 5 reinvig.
third time: 200% quickness + 5 reinvig + standard (+15).

And so on (those are just examples of course).

NTJedi

May 25th, 2004, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Cainehill:
...especially against human players, it's worth risking a friar, a sage, an onyx priestess or some such. I've had at least one of each of those win (sometimes by default) against humans. If you're playing against only 3 human players then sending someone can look promising. If you're playing against 8 other human opponents and 6 computer opponents sending someone is suicidal/wasteful and the prize is definitely not worth it.

Also look at the long-term results of sending people into the death match. A simple game of 4 humans and 5 computer opponents.

Lets say some miracle happens and you win 30% of the matches. Then after 10 death matches you've lost 7 commanders... now how valuable does that trident and experience boost look now ?

Everyone should look at the long-term effects of how many times they have won and lost in death matches. Right now the death match should have a much bigger prize for risking the life of a good commander.

Cheezeninja

May 25th, 2004, 08:04 PM

In the game im currently playing i didnt send anyone to the first couple (its a 16 ai impossible game) but when the third one came around, and i was playing mictlan, i had an extra ice devil sitting around (that i could summon again for a few blood slaves) i decided to send him in with a hell sword. I didnt win, but i came damn close. I like to send someone just so i can try and kill the souped up ai pretender that usually wins, i dont think the opportunity to kill a pretender should ever be passed up.

NTJedi

May 25th, 2004, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Cheezeninja:
I like to send someone just so i can try and kill the souped up ai pretender that usually wins, i dont think the opportunity to kill a pretender should ever be passed up. The pretender(s) already have a very good chance of dying because they're fighting strong prophets and necromancers. Secondly everyone in the death match is dying except for one, sometimes they all die. Whether its a bane lord or ice devil... I have more use for them alive then dead... and sending them against 15 AI impossible computer opponents in the death match has almost a 100% guaranteed death sentence.

Kristoffer O

May 25th, 2004, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
... and it may be the Last patch ...
Are you sitting on some kind of knowledge I'm not privy to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

NTJedi

May 25th, 2004, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by NTJedi:
... and it may be the Last patch ...
Are you sitting on some kind of knowledge I'm not privy to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>I have no idea whether or not the next patch is the Last... that's why I said "may be the Last patch".
I also don't recall seeing a date or deadline for how long patches will be provided.

NTJedi

May 25th, 2004, 11:35 PM

Especially for multiplayer there are only three results for the Arena Death Match:

1st Place: Some Experience and the Trident
2nd Place: You get nothing no change
Last Place: You lose the commander you sent

To get second place is easy... just don't goto the death match arena. In a game where 10 human players are playing let 8 of your opponents send a commander to death... while you take 2nd place and not send anyone !!

Another idea came to mind is that the prize should be increased based on the number of players in a game. Example: 50 gold prize per player which goes to the deathmatch. 10 commanders attending means the reward is 500 gold... and worth risking a good commander.

[ May 25, 2004, 22:45: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

rabelais

May 26th, 2004, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Catquiet:
In addition to improving the prize, you could attack the problem from another direction as well.

1. Each nation can choose a National Champion the same way they choose a Prophet. The Champions get Standard (+10), Recuperation, and Sacred. All National Champions must fight whenever the Arena event comes up.

2. All fighters entering the Arena auto-berserk (+1)

3. Prize is a Cursed misc. object Heart of a Champion that gives 30 morale and 5 reinvigoration. This is brilliant.

Please consider implementing something like this.

A monetary reward for the winner dependent on the number of entrants might also be a good idea if the above is regarded by the devs as too elaborate.

Would the champion have a 6 turn hiatus, when killed, as with a prophet?

Rabe the Bloodthirsty

Norfleet

May 26th, 2004, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
1st Place: Some Experience and the Trident
2nd Place: You get nothing no change
Last Place: You lose the commander you sent
Actually, there's an outcome better than 2nd place, possibly even better than 1st: You curse the crapola out of some hapless schmuck's contender, which may have been his pretender, and lose possibly your commander, which may even be intentional if you then unload some choice items on the hapless sod, or even nothing. It's entirely possible to gain a positive outcome while deliberately playing to lose.

NTJedi

May 26th, 2004, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Actually, there's an outcome better than 2nd place, possibly even better than 1st: You curse the crapola out of some hapless schmuck's contender, which may have been his pretender, and lose possibly your commander, which may even be intentional if you then unload some choice items on the hapless sod, or even nothing. It's entirely possible to gain a positive outcome while deliberately playing to lose. In a game of few human players it may be worthwhile to send a cheap scout with a totem shield... but thats sacrificing an entire totem shield for a single curse on an opponent which has a good chance of dying anyways.
In a death match of 12 players the chances of your commander meeting the the winning commander are pretty slim. The chances of meeting a pretender sent by a human player are even more rare.