Ashikaga Shogunate mod v1.01 [Archive]

Potatoman

January 27th, 2004, 02:18 AM

Version 1.01 of my Japanese themed Dominions II mod, the Ashikaga Shogunate, is now complete and ready for download! It replaces the basic nation of Tien'Chi with a feudal shogunate of warriors based on the Ashikaga, or Warring States, era of Japanese history. Version 1.01 of the mod includes 14 completely new units with hand crafted .tga sprites, full (though somewhat rough, in places) unit and nation descriptions and appropriate flags and banners.

Version 2.00, which will be released very quickly after Illwinter makes the improved mod tools availible, will feature national heroes, the ability for ninja to preform assassinations, thematic custom armor and weapons, more realistic leadership values on national commanders (poor Taisho Daimyo, only can lead 25 men!), balance tweaks, unique commander names, and national startic spells & related summon units (Oni).

If you have any suggestions on things you'd like to see in v2.00 or balance improvements that would make things more fun, feel free to post them here in this thread.

v1.01 of this mod uses unit numbers 2400-2414.

It can be downloaded from my website here (http://students.washington.edu/torgo/ashikaga.zip).

Enjoy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

undead dolphin hacker

January 27th, 2004, 03:04 AM

Looks cool! I might wait on Version 2.00, though... the core game is still too compelling for me to give up on!

Graeme Dice

January 27th, 2004, 03:45 AM

First off, I really like the graphics, they fit the units very well. I also like the ideas behind the mod.

I'll just make some quick suggestions as I see the balance issues that might arise here.

An initial gem income of 8 puts them above Pythium's 7, and above everyone else's 5.

The bowmen should probably only have a composite bow, or long bow, not a great bow, as I can't see a human being able to pull a draw that would be well over 100 pounds. Of course, they have very large resource costs, so you can't have too many of them, and they aren't particularly accurate either.

The mundane units look to be priced about right in terms of resources and gold cost. They will be very vulnerable, but not too likely to break with lots of standards thrown in.

The Yamabushi monk is clearly superior to the swordsman, as it costs only 2 gold more, only 5 resources vs. 15, has a morale of 15, is sacred to allow it's morale to go up to 18, has two more points of protection, and is immune to both fire and frost. The cost of the unit should probably be increased, as it will likely be better than swordsman in any given situation. You also might want to give them improved defense instead of natural protection, but I'm not sure of any thematic arguments here.

The Genin are likely underpriced, as any unit they hit with the bane dagger is guaranteed to die. It should probably be poison instead of decay. You might want to rethink giving them such a large siege bonus, as it would be easy to have dozens in an army, and no walls would stay up more than a turn. The only other unit with such a siege bonus is the Ulmish Siege Engineer, even Ulm's sappers only count double in sieges. The stealth +25 also means that it won't be found by most patrols.

The Mahotsukai master is expensive, but looks like he could be useful. The immunity to fire and ice might require the cost to be boosted a bit, but I'm not sure what the standard gold breakpoints are for most mages. The adept is likely priced appropriately. The Senin Master is quite inexpensive considering that it has two nature, compared to the 1 nature of Druid's and Arcoscephalian priestess at the same cost and priest power. The Jonin looks good at about the same price as a Vanheim leader, but should probably only have poison daggers instead of the very deadly bane daggers. Chunin seem to be too inexpensive for the same reasons that Genin are too inexpensive. They have similar stats to the elite units in the game, but don't cost the same. The resource costs probably need to be increased to take into account the bane weapons.

Arryn

January 27th, 2004, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
The bowmen should probably only have a composite bow, or long bow, not a great bow, as I can't see a human being able to pull a draw that would be well over 100 pounds.Graeme is correct. To be period-accurate, it should be the longbow.

The Yamabushi monk is clearly superior to the swordsman, as it costs only 2 gold more, only 5 resources vs. 15, has a morale of 15, is sacred to allow it's morale to go up to 18, has two more points of protection, and is immune to both fire and frost. The cost of the unit should probably be increased, as it will likely be better than swordsman in any given situation. You also might want to give them improved defense instead of natural protection, but I'm not sure of any thematic arguments here.Again I agree with Graeme. To be "thematically proper", they should have improved defense, not protection. Protection is damage resistance (armor). Defense is damage-avoidance (nimbleness and training).

I also agree with Graeme's other points for various unit costs, etc. You've done fine work with the mod, Potato. Tweak it a bit as suggested by Graeme and it'll be GREAT.

MythicalMino

January 27th, 2004, 04:21 AM

ok....only one question.....are there samurai?????

if there is....then you will be my favorite person in the entire world.....

Potatoman

January 27th, 2004, 04:25 AM

Yes, the game balance portion of the mod is the single area least tested; I have only played through a single game using the most recent v1.01.

Your comments are logical and for the most part I agree with your reasoning, so I have made the following changes and uploaded v1.02, which is availible through the same link.

Changelist:
1). Yamabushi Monk's prot is reduced, price raised.
2). Samurai Bowman changed to use composite bow for balance reasons, despite the thematic inaccuracy- Daikyu were often described as "great war bows" and were very large. This will be changed again when equipment modding becomes possible.
3). Genin and Chunin now fight with poison daggers. The siege engineer skill is not possible to mod in yet, but the flavor text has been changed.
4). Jonin's resource cost has increased but his stats and attack remain unchanged. His expense is great, and compared to similarly priced Vans he lacks protection, priestly power, weapon length, and is extremely vulnerable to projectiles. Cheap ranged units like archers or slingers decimate Groups of Genin and Jonin with suprising ease.
5). Chunin's "fist" attack removed and his cost has been greatly increased.
6). Inital gem income reduced.
7). Senin Master's magic is reduced, and his cost is increased.

Ashikaga Shogunate v1.02 (http://students.washington.edu/torgo/ashikaga.zip)

[ January 27, 2004, 02:36: Message edited by: Potatoman ]

MythicalMino

January 27th, 2004, 04:41 AM

when i install this mod...do i just install it to the "mod" folder? my next game will be with this nation i think....

Graeme Dice

January 27th, 2004, 04:45 AM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
1). Yamabushi Monk's prot is reduced, price raised.This one looks a bit better now. He's fragile with only 7 protection, but is workable now. You might want to compare his stats to Mictlan's jaguar warriors to get an idea of the cost he should be.

2). Samurai Bowman changed to use composite bow for balance reasons, despite the thematic inaccuracy- Daikyu were often described as "great war bows" and were very large. This will be changed again when equipment modding becomes possible.Consider that a long bow could be 6 feet long though, and is made out of hardwood that I'm not sure is available in Japan.

3). Genin and Chunin now fight with poison daggers. The siege engineer skill is not possible to mod in yet, but the flavor text has been changed.They still have a bane dagger. You might want to give the Genin two poison daggers and ambidexterity 3 if possible.

4). Jonin's resource cost has increased but his stats and attack remain unchanged. His expense is great, and compared to similarly priced Vans he lacks protection, priestly power, weapon length, and is extremely vulnerable to projectiles. Cheap ranged units like archers or slingers decimate Groups of Genin and Jonin with suprising ease.I haven't played much with Vanheim, so I'm not really up to speed on their units, and was going from memory. I had forgotten about their priest abilities.

Arryn

January 27th, 2004, 04:48 AM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Samurai Bowman changed to use composite bow for balance reasons, despite the thematic inaccuracy- Daikyu were often described as "great war bows" and were very large. This will be changed again when equipment modding becomes possible.That's fine for now. Thanks.

FYI, if you want to see a good example of the Daikyu in action, watch The Last Samurai (Tom Cruise). While obviously not set in the Shogunate period, the employment of the bow by both mounted and dismounted samurai is pretty well done in the movie.

Arryn

January 27th, 2004, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Consider that a long bow could be 6 feet long though, and is made out of hardwood that I'm not sure is available in Japan.The most notable (and common) hardwood in Japan is/was the cherry tree. Check out the following link: Official Japanese Hardwood Trees (http://www.geosymbols.org/plants/trees/world/japan/hardwoods/index.php)

I think you'll be surprised at the diversity.

Potatoman

January 27th, 2004, 05:00 AM

The bane dagger bug has been fixed. It was hiding below #forestsurvival and escaped notice. Now fixed.

Once modding fire and cold resistance values below 100% becomes posible nobody will have 100% immunity. Also keep in mind that the quarterstaff, while great for attack & defense modifiers, does only 3 damage- half of even a standard broad sword. Yamabushi Monk looks great on paper, but he won't even be able to injure armored elite troops.

Graeme Dice

January 27th, 2004, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Also keep in mind that the quarterstaff, while great for attack & defense modifiers, does only 3 damage- half of even a standard broad sword. Yamabushi Monk looks great on paper, but he won't even be able to injure armored elite troops.That's what a fire-9 blessing is for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Kristoffer O

January 27th, 2004, 10:11 AM

The Great Bow was intended for trolls and exceptional heroes (Fang, one of the troll heroes, used it before he got a lightning bow), but there is currently no one that uses it in the game.

Pocus

January 27th, 2004, 12:29 PM

the graphisms of your mod are excellent. I will wait for the next patch though.

congratulations, very nice work.

tka

January 27th, 2004, 03:56 PM

Awesome work! Really enjoyed reading those unit descriptions. Nice graphics also.

Thanks!

Uh-Nu-Buh

January 27th, 2004, 04:37 PM

Japanese Bows are over 7 feet in length. Historically, they are the largest in the world. They are laminated composite recurves, made of bamboo wood and natural resins. They are labelled according to how many people it took to string them: 7 man bow, 4 man bow.... The tales of the warring states give the impression of their power being akin to siege engines, with great archers destroying ships by puncturing their hulls. The bow is peculiarly suited to mounted combat as well, since it is asymmetric, with 2/3'rds of the bow above the grip, and only 1/3'rd below, it is very manouverable from the saddle. They have dozens of war arrows, each producing a different effect. One howls thru the air producing terror in the enemy, another whistles as it destroys evil spirits, another has an indented curve that allows it to catch and cut ropes/strings, fire arrows were common. Just as with an English longbowman, it takes years and years to train a Japanese bowman.

I suggest that these bowmen be powerful, but expensive. Japanese footsoldiers were essentially draftees. Inexpensive, poorly equipped, and fodder. Samurai were often well-equipped (they routinely looted the dead), well-trained, and deadly. I suggest that the commander samurai be very powerful att/def/armor/weapon, but that the regular samurai come in low/med/high with corresponding stats--and the high being much more expensive than the low. I suggest that bowmen only come in one Category--high. The bow was the weapon of the aristocracy.

Potatoman

January 27th, 2004, 10:27 PM

I have decided to hold off on releasing more changes until the next Dominions II patch comes out, but work continues on the mod.
Thanks for all your compliments and criticisms, they are very helpful.

Also, a note to Illwinter: a banner is included in the setup, but it has an odd name. The file is samurai.tga and it extracts to the /ashikaga directory by default.

PvK

January 28th, 2004, 03:42 AM

It would be good if they replaced someone besides Tien'Chi, so you wouldn't lose an Asian nation when playing Japan. Though, with present modding tool limits, this may make the most sense for now.

PvK

Tune

January 28th, 2004, 08:15 AM

Hello.

I'm creating Japanese mod, too, and unit's name of a part in your mod is the same by chance.
(e.g. Ashigaru Spearman, Samurai Commander, Yamabushi Monk.. )
May I keep creating mod by using these names ?

Potatoman

January 28th, 2004, 09:19 AM

All the names and titles of the units are historical in origin, and as such are not owned by anybody. So yes, do whatever you want with your mod.

Tune

January 28th, 2004, 10:53 AM

Thanks.

I was surprised, because class of units chosen from the history was a like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
(But, I didn't think of using Falchion for the substitution of Katana. Good Idea. )
I will make Japanese mod which is close to the Fantasy.

Cheers,

Arryn

January 29th, 2004, 04:14 AM

I'm playing Ashikaga on the Orania map with 14 difficult AIs (indies at 5). So far so good. I just captured the Marignon mausoleum (on turn 12). Marignon's home was only 3 provinces away, so they were pretty well doomed. Ulm is 5 away, so they're next. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It's a great deal of fun playing with these historical type units, but compared to my Favorites of Jotun or R'lyeh, it's definitely slower going.

Here are a few early observations:
 The starting troops in the army lacks a scout. I don't think it would hurt play balance to give players one to begin with. The Jotuns begin with a giant scout, 8 giants, and a giant commander. By comparison, the Ashikaga starting force is much weaker. You may want to consider increasing the number of samurai to 18-20 from the current 15. The yamabushi monk moves 2/11 while ashigaru and samurai move 2/12. The monk, being lightly encumbered and highly trained, should move somewhat faster than the armored troops, 2/13 at least, and preferably 2/14-2/15. By the same token, the ashigaru should be slower (lack of training) and thus move only 2/10. The samurai bowmen should move at least 2/11, if not the same (2/12) as the other samurai. The senin master only moves 1/9. The strategic move should be 2. Only moving 1 doesn't make much sense given what the guy is wearing and his familiarity with living outdoors and being close to nature (unless he wastes time stopping frequently to smell the wildflowers). Also, the text description mentions them "wandering in the mountains", yet they have forest, not mountain survival. The average Jotun giant costs about the same as two samurai, but is worth the rough equivalent of three samurai in battle. I don't know if there's anything you can do about that (ie: making the samurai tougher and/or deadlier, or lowering their cost) without messing things up in relation to other nations. I just wanted to point it out. Any chance that you can get Unwise to make one of his custom shields for Ashikaga in place of the normal Dom-style flag? There are likely dozens of suitable mon (japanese clan symbols) that can be used as the design on the shield.

Potatoman

January 29th, 2004, 04:52 AM

In more recent Versions I have been fiddling with the mod balance again. The starting army lacks a scout because, for some reason, the command to add #startscout "Scout" appears to not work. Putting in the unit # doesn't work either. So, if anyone knows how to get this to work, spill the beans. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

After having a group of 23+ Samurai wiped out to the Last man by 11 Pangea Revelers (cheap berserking satyrs) I also have decided that they were underpowered. At the moment I'm experimenting with raising their attack up to 13 and seeing how that works. So far the beef seems to be doing about what I want: heavy casualties on both sides when serious battles start. Bowman precision was also increased to 12, as a 15 resource archer with 10 precison would be pretty bad.

The movement discrepancies are a good catch. I'll probably change that. About Unwise flags, I don't know. It would be awesome if he did want to make a flag for Ashikaga but I'm wouldn't expect him to, especially when the mod is essentially unfinished.

[ January 29, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: Potatoman ]

Graeme Dice

January 29th, 2004, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
At the moment I'm experimenting with raising their attack up to 13 and seeing how that works. So far the beef seems to be doing about what I want: heavy casualties on both sides when serious battles start. Bowman precision was also increased to 12, as a 15 resource archer with 10 precison would be pretty bad.Just remember when adjusting costs that improving a unit's stats from the basic 10 all around increases their gold cost, but the equipment is resources. Precision 12 archers typically cost 12 gold(Man's longbows, Black Forest rangers).

Arryn

January 29th, 2004, 05:16 AM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
After having a group of 23+ Samurai wiped out to the Last man by 11 Pangea Revelers (cheap berserking satyrs) I also have decided that they were underpowered. At the moment I'm experimenting with raising their attack up to 13 and seeing how that works. So far the beef seems to be doing about what I want: heavy casualties on both sides when serious battles start. Bowman precision was also increased to 12, as a 15 resource archer with 10 precison would be pretty bad.Ouch on your samurais. At least they died honorably. heh

I'm finding that the genin are by far more cost-effective than samurai in terms of what they accomplish in combat (due to poison, fast move, etc.) and their higher survival rate. Nevermind their ability to sneak around, or reduce a castle quickly. Simply awesome. Thus I've switched to churning genin out rather than samurai. Also, since it's easier to increase gold than resources, you can build more genin than samurai, which is a bonus feature.

I've built no archers, so I can't comment on them.

Jasper

January 29th, 2004, 06:34 AM

LordArioch

January 29th, 2004, 06:44 AM

I didn't play this mod for too long, but I'd say samurai archers need more cost over normal samurai. Paying 5 gold for composite bows on all your core army troops makes for some deadly arrow volleys. Just keep in mind that a samurai archer is almost as good as a samurai + an archer, maybe even better. I seemed to have pretty good sucess with my samurai archers.

Potatoman

January 29th, 2004, 07:31 AM

The Samurai Archers only cost 3 more gold a pop than normal samurai, but they have reduced attack and defense (especially after standard Samurai were boosted.) I think that the change leaves archers in a support role and still allows the player to amass enough to do some good as pure archers.

I think something that many people may be missing is that Samurai are very vulnerable troops. Without shields and a prot. value significantly less than even standard heavy infantry it is very easy for them to meet death on the battlefield. If you look at other races standard HI, like the Arco Hypaspist, you will see the difference is essentially 4 less protection and no shield to defend against range- this is a very big disadvantage. In order to make them worthy, they must either a) cost less than their adversaries or b) make up for it by having high att, def, or str values.
I'm wary about attribute pumping because there really isn't any way to justify a nonmagical recruit fighter having superhuman strength or skill- 13 is as high as is plausible for foot soldier samurai. Thus, I feel the Samurai's low cost and high stats (13 av, 12 dv, 11 str, 16 gold) are more a counterbalance to his vulnerability on the battlefield (Ashikaga has access to air magic for SoS, but it is expensive) than an unbalancing factor.
In short, this is my excuse for not making him much more expensive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Genin, on the other hand, are comparable to mini-Vans. They now cost 40 gold.

Arryn

January 29th, 2004, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by LordArioch:
I didn't play this mod for too long, but I'd say samurai archers need more cost over normal samurai. Paying 5 gold for composite bows on all your core army troops makes for some deadly arrow volleys. Just keep in mind that a samurai archer is almost as good as a samurai + an archer, maybe even better. I seemed to have pretty good sucess with my samurai archers. Personally, if I'm going to spend that much gold & resources, I'd rather have the troops use their swords, which are more effective than arrows in the same quantity, considering how hard it is to hit foes with missiles. And given that preference, I may as well save the bit of gold (or not so small a bit as it adds up over time) and buy the plain samurai. Bows only seem to work decently against enemies with virtually no armor, and those same enemies hack up rather nicely, assuming said weak enemies don't rout (which is the likeliest result).

Arryn

January 29th, 2004, 07:46 AM

I've noticed that the names given to commanders with this mod don't seem to correspond to chinese, much less japanese, names. Not having played T'ien Ch'i (of any flavor) I don't know if this naming convention is normal for the underlying nation. I had been under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that each nation in Dom had its own names list that the game uses to randomly select from. At least the names I've seen for the many games I've played as Jotunheim and R'lyeh do not have those two nations use any of the same names (so naturally I assume that other nations likewise have their own lists).

LordArioch

January 29th, 2004, 07:57 AM

Admittedly bows don't do much against better armored troops, but driving away the fodder and even lightly armored but dangerous units such as elephants, etc. is very useful. The archers do have somewhat lower stats, but IMO, not enough to counteract the power of their bows. The recent boosting of other samurai stats might make them more competative, but since I think you boosted the prec of the archers to 12 as well, they still seem very close in overall usefulness.

Graeme Dice

January 29th, 2004, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by LordArioch:
The archers do have somewhat lower stats, but IMO, not enough to counteract the power of their bows.The extremely high resource cost of the Samurai archers is enough of a limit on their usefulness. To make them have a different resource or gold cost than other units with similar capabilities you must have a particularly good reason.

January 29th, 2004, 08:09 AM

Hrm. I only have one comment so far until the Mod tools are released.

The Genin and other Ninjas are slightly hard to look at. I don't know if it's just me or not; but the neon green and dark purplish just seem 'off'.

On the other hand, I like the the Mahotsukai coloring and sprite very much http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Arryn

January 29th, 2004, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
I think something that many people may be missing is that Samurai are very vulnerable troops. Without shields and a prot. value significantly less than even standard heavy infantry it is very easy for them to meet death on the battlefield. If you look at other races standard HI, like the Arco Hypaspist, you will see the difference is essentially 4 less protection and no shield to defend against range- this is a very big disadvantage. In order to make them worthy, they must either a) cost less than their adversaries or b) make up for it by having high att, def, or str values.
I'm wary about attribute pumping because there really isn't any way to justify a nonmagical recruit fighter having superhuman strength or skill- 13 is as high as is plausible for foot soldier samurai. Thus, I feel the Samurai's low cost and high stats (13 av, 12 dv, 11 str, 16 gold) are more a counterbalance to his vulnerability on the battlefield (Ashikaga has access to air magic for SoS, but it is expensive) than an unbalancing factor.
In short, this is my excuse for not making him much more expensive. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Genin, on the other hand, are comparable to mini-Vans. They now cost 40 gold. In v1.02, the samurai is 13 gold, and the archer is 15, a difference of 2. If you have raised the cost of the "plain" samurai to 16, that just makes the cost-effectiveness of the samurai even less attractive (IMO). They are already weaker than comparable HI, as you have pointed out. The Arco Hypaspist is much better protected, and has both 1 higher strength and morale. The 3 resources extra that the Hypaspist costs are cheap compared to the +4 protection they have.

The samurai should have some trait that makes them unique and offsets other nation's HI. One thing that is notable about samurai is the bushido code. Routing would be highly dishonorable, so it should be fairly rare. Hence I suggest the following ...
(based upon stats for the samurai in v1.02)
 Increase strength of all samurai to 11. Increase morale of basic samurai to 15 (this will make them one notch better than genin). Increase morale of aoi to 16. Increase morale of samurai commander to 17. Increase morale of taisho daimyo to 18. Lower cost of basic samurai to 14. Lower resources of basic samurai to 13. Adjust the costs/resources of other samurai as appropriate relative to the revised basic samurai. Other stats for the samurai are fine as is.In addition to the above list, if you raise the defense of the samurai from the current 10 to the value of 12 which it seems you are using in your own tests, then I suggest setting the basic price at 16.

With regards to Genin, setting their cost at 40 gold is fine, but they cost too many resources at 9, given the equipment they have. A more reasonable value is 4 or 5.

[ January 29, 2004, 06:41: Message edited by: Arryn ]

PDF

January 29th, 2004, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
It would be good if they replaced someone besides Tien'Chi, so you wouldn't lose an Asian nation when playing Japan. Though, with present modding tool limits, this may make the most sense for now.

PvK The way the mod has been done (new units, no reuse of existing ones) you can change it to replace any other nation easily.
Just change the "#selectnation 15" line to whatever other nation number you want (see modding guides for the list).
Cool, isn't it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Arryn

January 29th, 2004, 08:05 PM

Latest observation:

When Ashikaga units are paralyzed (by illithid Mind BLasts), instead of the unit graphic becoming "grayed out", the transparent background of the sprite is replaced by black. It's very odd-looking to see these 2-D vertical black squares with samurai images embedded within them littering the battlefield. It ruins the whole illusion of the sprite (a 2-D object in reality) being thought of as a 3-D object.

Just thought you might want to know this in case there's anything you can do about it.

Osium

January 29th, 2004, 08:06 PM

The bow the Japanese used is called the "Yumi", it was a fairly unique bow in that the hand grip was about 1/3 of the way up the bow itself. This allowed for a large powerful bow to be fired from horse back. For all intents and purposes it is an assymetrical longbow designed for mounted soldier use.

It was also a very tall bow by most standards some over 200cm tall, the draw on the bow for a strong man was around 18 kilo's whatever that is in pounds, but due to its akward shape I imagine that accounts for the reputed difficulty in drawing.

Japanese archers also often used frog crotch arrows, basically an arrow head in the shape of a V so they'd look something like this. These were cutting and slashing arrows.

###--------<

The purpose of this arrow was to cut the straps of the bamboo armor that was commonly worn, they also used standard AP arrowheads as well.

Firing the Yumi was almost an artform. I've heard that a proper Yumi when fired should actually almost spin out of the holders hand so that bow is pointed towards the archer after the arrow is released. I assume this is due to its assymetrical design.

The Yumi was every bit as important to the Samurai as the sword was, and it is an arrow that a Samurai broke in half when he swore an oath of allegiance.

Perhaps a mounted horse archer with high precision would fit into this theme?

Potatoman

January 29th, 2004, 09:01 PM

Names: Yeah I noticed too. Don't know how to change them though, so nothing I can do at this point.

Sorry the Ninjas don't look as good as some of the other sprites, they were definately the hardest to make. Trying to make a thin man dressed in a tight black suit look good at 32x32 pixels against a light brown background was a much bigger challenge than I anticipated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Some of the early incarnations of the Ninja were quite startlingly ugly. This is one of the reasons they have glamour in combat- so you can't see them very well. The green knife is from back when they all used bane blades (this is also why their resource cost is relatively high).

About the paralyzation problem- I don't know what the cause is. Does the same thing happen with the user created units of other mods?

Arryn

January 29th, 2004, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Names: Yeah I noticed too. Don't know how to change them though, so nothing I can do at this point.I'm just playing the game, enjoying your mod, and reporting things as I spot them. Given the current state of the game's mod capabilities, it doesn't surprise me when you say that nothing can be done. We can only hope that the next patch will address these issues.
This is one of the reasons they have glamour in combat- so you can't see them very well. The green knife is from back when they all used bane blades (this is also why their resource cost is relatively high).That's a, ahem, sneaky way to, ah, dodge problems in drawing ninja sprites. (Sorry for being pun-ny, couldn't resist.) You didn't comment on my suggestions for "balancing" the samurai or reducing the resource cost of the genin. Eh?
About the paralyzation problem- I don't know what the cause is. Does the same thing happen with the user created units of other mods? Yours is the only mod (of the half-dozen I use at present) that creates new sprites. Perhaps another player, or IW, can shed light on this foul darkness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Once again I wish to say that you've done a wonderful job with the mod. The sprite graphics for the various samurai and casters are a joy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PvK

January 29th, 2004, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
... The way the mod has been done (new units, no reuse of existing ones) you can change it to replace any other nation easily.
Just change the "#selectnation 15" line to whatever other nation number you want (see modding guides for the list).
Cool, isn't it ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Ah, super! And yes, extremely cool! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

PvK

Graeme Dice

January 29th, 2004, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Osium:
It was also a very tall bow by most standards some over 200cm tall, the draw on the bow for a strong man was around 18 kilo's whatever that is in pounds, but due to its akward shape I imagine that accounts for the reputed difficulty in drawing.That draw seems a bit low, as it's around 40 pounds, while a modern composite bow will be 60-80 and longbows were supposed to be over 100 in some cases.

Kristoffer O

January 29th, 2004, 10:04 PM

Hi

I have made a jpg banner and moved the Ashikaga mod to complete mods. Is the 1.02 the latest Version?

Nice work!

Arryn

January 29th, 2004, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
That draw seems a bit low, as it's around 40 pounds, while a modern composite bow will be 60-80 and longbows were supposed to be over 100 in some cases.Taken from the following web page: Kyudo: Japanese Archery (http://www.negia.net/~pdarden/kyudo/)

(begin quoted text)
---
From history I would have to say that the average draw has become much less than it used to be. During the war of the Heike (the middle ages) one master archer sunk two boats with one shot of his massive bow. In those days bows were measured by how many men were required to string it, the average being a three man bow, this monster that sunk two boats being a seven man bow! The old Kyujutsu training was much more rigorous than the modern, with several hundred arrows being shot each day. A good day at the dojo now would be forty arrows, with most students quitting at around twenty or thirty. I myself pull a 13.5 kilogram bow, which is very light. My wrists are weak. The most powerful bow I have heard of being used with any regularity in the modern age is a 42 kilogram bow. My master uses several different bows, but his regular practice bow is 18 kg I believe.

All students, no matter which instructor or school, will shoot the same design of Japanese bow which is little changed from the twelfth century. Traditionally made of hardwoods laminated front and back with bamboo the Japanese bow is one of the longest in the world, usually over seven feet in length. It is a natural double recurve bow with the arrow nocked one third of the way from the bottom and the bow actually rotating in the hand at release approx. 270 degrees. The unique design of the bow requires that the bow actually be torqued or twisted in full draw to make the arrow fly straight.
---
(end quoted text)

Provided FYI, for those that are curious about the subject matter.

What I find interesting myself is the high pull strength of these old bows, given that they were never designed to punch through plate or tightly-woven chain steel, as were the western bows of the same era.

Potatoman may need to significantly revise (upwards) the damage of the archers in his mod, as well as increase their gold cost. I also agree with Osium that the mod should definitely include mounted archers.

[ January 29, 2004, 20:32: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Saber Cherry

January 29th, 2004, 10:34 PM

Thanks for the link! I put it with my other Dominions links, right next to this armor guide (http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/0.Katchu.html).

Osium

January 30th, 2004, 02:02 AM

I believe the reason why the pull was around 40 pounds, was due to the fact the grip for the bow was located 1/3 of the way up. This means that significant poundage is going to exert a fair ammount of torque on your wrist to draw the bow and fire it accurately.

A good point was made, the arrows the japanese used were designed not for punching through thick metal armors, but for cutting bambo armor/lamenated armor or punching through it which is significantly less difficult to penetrate than something made of metal. This may also be a reason why the draw is seemingly lower than other bows of equal size, note I am going by modern useage of the bow. In fuedal times the bows very likely were strung more tightly but I still do not think in combat where volume of arrows is required you would want a bow strung THAT tightly simply due to the pressures exerted on the wrists because of its assymetrical design.

[ January 30, 2004, 00:06: Message edited by: Osium ]

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 04:28 AM

I've noticed a significant omission in the .dm file for the mod:

The mounted units lack the #mounted command signifying they are mounted troops. I found this out when I saw that my Daimyo had a foot slot, and mounted commanders aren't supposed to have feet slots. You will also need to adjust the base enc for both units upwards to a value of 5 (currently they are set to a value of 1), as per the mod instructions (section 6.29 of the doc), in order for the units to have the correct enc values.

I edited the Version of the mod that I'm playing with to test all the suggestions I've been making, along with those that Potatoman was making himself, and so far they seem to make things considerably more balanced, at least as far as my present engagement with Ulm (currently on turn 23). I'm an impatient gal and I didn't want to wait for the next mod Version. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

My genin are a fair counter to Ulms HI. The samurai pin them in place from the front and the ninjas hit the HI from the rear, while other ninjas go after enemy archers. Ulm counters my ninjas by shredding them with missile fire as they move. Ninjas are remarkably vulnerable to archery, which really shouldn't be surprising. Given that the ninjas now cost almost 3x a samurai (in gold), you definitely feel the loss of each one. Which should discourage folks from just making ninjas when they should instead build "combined arms" forces.

Potatoman

January 30th, 2004, 04:52 AM

Nice catch on the mounted units. I don't know how I missed it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks for all the resources on Kyudo, very interesting stuff. Version 2.00 will see a more historically accurate representation of the Samurai Archer, with higher cost and attributes to reflect his elite background.

Thanks for putting the mod up on Illwinter, Kristoffer. 1.02 is the currently the latest Version availible to download, though Version 2.0 is almost ready for when the next level of modding tools are released.

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Nice catch on the mounted units.Thanks!

Here's another one for you, also on the mounted units. Both units need the following command added/changed (it's missing for the Daimyo): #weapon "Hoof" 56

Without specifying the number '56', the attack will be with the default unshod hoof (which is nbr 55) doing zero base damage. With 56, the base damage is 10 (see table #3 in the doc). Quite a difference.

By the way, in the changes I've made to your mod that I'm playing with, I've replaced the lance of the samurai horseman with a composite bow. Two reasons: (1) AFAIK, the lance (in its western form) was not used in Japan (if you really feel the need, then use a "long spear", which the Japanese did have), and (2) the mod needs a mounted samurai archer. I don't see the need for two separate mounted troops, so I just gave a bow to the existing one. Besides, again AFAIK, all mounted samurai had bows anyway. (Well, most samurai, period, used bows. But that's quibbling.)

With regards to the use of the lance or spear by mounted warriors, the traditional employment of cavalry in Japan was to harry the foe from the flanks with archery, and/or with quick dashes culminating in slashing attacks, with the cavalry breaking off to reform and repeat. The terrain in Japan, as well as the lack of a need to punch through heavy steel plate, more or less precluded the use of lancer-style thrusts up the middle to drive wedges into the midst of foes. The lack of the lance is also why the Japanese did not develop the anti-lancer weapon known as the pike. Lack of plate armor is also (in large part) why Japan did not develop firearms. If the weapons you have are good enough to defeat the armor of your opponents, you do not need to spend valuable resources (time, money, intellect) on making better weapons. Well, that's more than enough lecturing for one post.

Thanks for all the resources on Kyudo, very interesting stuff.My pleasure.

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
Both units need the following command added/changed (it's missing for the Daimyo): #weapon "Hoof" 56Footnote: something about this command appears to be bugged. When I examine the units, the damage is still shown as '0' rather than '10' as the docs say it should. Unless the docs are wrong ...

Saber Cherry

January 30th, 2004, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arryn:
Both units need the following command added/changed (it's missing for the Daimyo): #weapon "Hoof" 56Footnote: something about this command appears to be bugged. When I examine the units, the damage is still shown as '0' rather than '10' as the docs say it should. Unless the docs are wrong ... <hr /></blockquote>There are two hooves, an "animal hoof" and a "mount hoof". You want #55, the mount hoof. Check the sticky equipment stat list, it's pretty good about such things.

But I think you just specify the number OR the name, not both, so be careful about that.

EDIT: Except it looks list the list is wrong; I'll change it. You do in fact want #56. Anyway, I think the problem is that you're double-specifying; just use 56, not 56 and "hoof".

[ January 30, 2004, 07:38: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Osium

January 30th, 2004, 12:23 PM

The most common weapon of fuedal japan was without question the spear called the Yari. Samurai used it sometimes, but it was the weapon of the masses. Other weapons that might be considered would be naginata and its variations. I believe there was a variant of the naginata used by cavalry, essentially a short blade on spear, perhaps a halberd might be able to represent this?

The Sohei also used the naginata, im not sure what the best weapon to represent a naginata would be, it is obviously a reach weapon with tremendous damage potential.

A Brief History of the Naginata, shamelessly taken from a shogun totalwar forum.

The Naginata is a weapon with a rich history, utilized and refined from the Nara Period (710-784 A.D.) to today. Employed initially by the Bushi, it later found itself the specific weapon of the Sohei or Buddhist monks. It is the school of the spear and, as such, is a shafted weapon. The length of its oval shaft varied, from 5' to 8', depending on battle conditions and personal requests. The most striking feature, however, was the blade; it could be anywhere from 10 inches to more than 2 feet, and was sharpened on a single side, fashioned in the manner of either Sakizori or Uchizori. As with most shafted weapons, it was most devastating when utilizing sweeping, circular motions. However, thrusts with the blade and also the heavy ishizuki on the butt end were acceptable tactical alternatives.

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Anyway, I think the problem is that you're double-specifying; just use 56, not 56 and "hoof". That's precisely what was wrong (double-spec). Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
A little remark also : encumbrance amongst the munted units in the mod is uneven, Daimyo has 1 and Horse Samurai 3.
Mod guidelines suggest a 5 for mounted troops : is this change a design decision ? I doubt it was. He's already said that he'd overlooked the #mounted command, which changes the way enc is calculated. I expect that the 'proper' value of 5 is what you'll see in v2.00.

Pocus

January 30th, 2004, 03:43 PM

I mostly have problems with the cost of the 2 big mages and apprentice. They are too cheap by 15 to 20%, in my opinion.

The race is really cool looking, and have a nice background though.

Adept

January 30th, 2004, 04:10 PM

On the subject of Nipponiese bows:

The bows are large and impressive looking, but that doesn't make them superior to european longbows.

As has been mentioned here, the japaniese bow wasn't expected to pierce a samurai's breastplate.

The Welsh longbow, on the other hand, was the bane and terror of knights, and european bodkin arrows did punch through heavier armour than the japaniese ever used.

The japaniese samurai culture didn't evolve in the same surroundings than european warfare. Samurai sword-art is graceful and their archery and artform. This doesn't make them superior to their european counterparts.

Longbows are a pretty good representation for samurai archers, even though their penetration power propably is too high.

Light armour and high attack skill (not that much defence) and high speed would seem a good modelling for samurai swordsmen.

Naginata and the spear of course are also traditional samurai weapons. Good against mounted opponents, especially the naginata.

Potatoman

January 30th, 2004, 08:08 PM

Pocus, can you explain why they should be more expensive? In terms of magic paths, 7 for 310 and 4 for 200 is actually a pretty poor cost/magic ratio when you compare it standard mages of the other nations.

Mahotsukai Master: 7 magic levels, 310 gold. High Stats, sacred.
Mahotsukai Adept: 4 levels, 200 gold. High stats, sacred.

Compare to a sampling of other national mages:
[LIST] Jotun Skratti: 5 magic levels, 250 gold, giant level hp, very high stats.
Dwarven Smith: 4 levels, 180 gold. High stats, smithing bonus?
Arco Mystic: 5 levels, 180 gold. Low stats.
Theurg: 180 gold, 5.5 levels (counting priest levels as half). Standard stats. Sacred.
Arch Theurg: 380 gold, 9 levels. High stats. Sacred.
Marshmaster (C'tis miasma): 280 gold, 7 levels. Low stats.
Royal Navigator (Marignon CotS): 200 gold, 5 levels.
Pan: 350 gold, 6 magic paths, attracts maenads, giant level hp, recuperation, high stats.
Crone of Avalon: 230 gold, 6 paths. Low stats, sacred.

I was actually considering lowering the prices for Ashikaga's mages by 10-30 gold.

The encumberance slip has been noted and changed along with the hooves and #mounted problems.

[ January 30, 2004, 18:11: Message edited by: Potatoman ]

January 30th, 2004, 08:37 PM

It also depends on the strength of the mages in the nation itself, are they capital only and so on.

The mages I feel are about where they need to be for what they bring to the nation (2 in 3 Paths and a random, thus they are great searchers, have good path picks.

Sacred Mages also take special consideration because of Blessing Effects.

Saber Cherry

January 30th, 2004, 08:51 PM

Sacred mages have half upkeep, and should generally cost about 70% more than a similar non-sacred mage, IMO. Mages with higher levels in fewer paths should also cost more than mages with lower levels in many paths, for the same number of total levels. That's one reason I consider Celestial Masters overpriced, even though they are sacred; they are spread too thin to be useful in any path. If they had 2 linked randoms it might be OK.

Uh-Nu-Buh

January 30th, 2004, 09:06 PM

Two things about the Japanese longbow and Armor threads:

1. The armor was much better than many are giving it credit for. It was mostly composite laminate--very lightweight and very very strong. This stuff was easily the equal of heavy chainmail--with less encumbrance. Definitely not the equal of plate or full plate though.

2. The world's longest bows also had the world's longest arrows. This means that a 42KG draw (~100 lbs) would propel the arrow for longer than an equivalent English Longbow--so it actually had higher velocities, could travel longer distances, and hit harder.

I'd also like to clear up the ideas people have as to the awkwardness of the bow--nope, not awkward. The asymmetrical location of the grip makes it easy to use, even when mounted. Additionally, the reason the bow rotates around the wrist is because the bow is slightly off kilter to counter bow-arrow torque and provide higher accuracy. A good release will rotate the bow around the wrist.

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Sacred mages have half upkeep, and should generally cost about 70% more than a similar non-sacred mage, IMO.70%?!! Why? Sacred can be useful, but not so much so to almost double the cost of the unit. Also, a lot of players will use their mages primarily as researchers and this would severely hamper trying to build up a strong research base quickly. At 200/310 gold, the Ashikaga mages are already quite pricey. I'm not saying they aren't worth the 200/310, just that they aren't worth more than that. IMO.

January 30th, 2004, 09:14 PM

You don't use your most expensive mages to research, you use your cheapest mages for research. The ninjas work just fine for research and can switch to battle duty when needed, you'll only build the mages when you need a battlefield or ritual presence.

Sacred is a large consideration. I don't know if 70% is the right number, but it is definitely a factor.

Uh-Nu-Buh

January 30th, 2004, 09:16 PM

Japanese Monsters you might want to incorporate:

Oki--giant hill-troll types. They eat humans. Big and dumb.

Tengu--big nosed goblins. Very big egoes. Small, not powerful, but high morale.

Kappa--amphibious frog people, nature/water magicians. High culture.

Fox-Men--shape shifting nature spirits, tricksters, magicians. Powerful and dangerous.

Crazy Women--like bansidhees, crazy women had long hair, screamed and wailed, and were evil spirits of death and jealousy.

Shinto Spirits--wide and varied nature spirits. Mountains, stones, trees, rivers, kind've like elementals. Powerful but remote.

Lone Buddhist Magician--very powerful mages in stories. Wide variety of magics, but whatever they specialize in they are good at (3'rd or 4'th level random magic type?). Always alone, without other commanders or troops--don't know if this can be done.

Saber Cherry

January 30th, 2004, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
70%?!! Why? Sacred can be useful, but not so much so to almost double the cost of the unit. Yes, actually, it is that useful. How long do your mages Last? Mine tend to Last 20 turns or so, average, I estimate. Let's compare two 100 gold mages, with level-2 water magic. One scared, one non-sacred.

Normal: Total cost after 20 turns is 233 gold.
Sacred: Total cost after 20 turns is 166 gold.

So the sacred one is much cheaper, and gets whatever bless benefits you may have (possibly reinvigoration, air shield, life after death, quickness...). Much cheaper and potentially much better!

On the other hand, giving a 70% cost hike to sacred mages:

Sacred, 70% more expensive: 283 gold after 20 turns.

That makes the sacred mage only 22% more expensive after 20 turns. With automatic quickness, air shield + shock resistance, or reinvigoration + 4 protection, a sacred mage is worth far more than 22% extra.

For research, 70% is a bit overpriced, of course - the breakeven point is 70 turns, which is too long. A 60% premium gives a 45-turn breakeven point, which might be a little more fair, considering the normal game length. But generally, as Zen mentioned, it is the cheapest mages that are used for research.

Making mages sacred without increasing the price more than a trivial amount gives the nation a huge advantage, unless the mages are inherently worthless (like Celestial Masters).

Osium

January 30th, 2004, 09:49 PM

If I gave the impression that the Yumi was inferior in any way shape or form to a european or middle eastern bow that was not my intention.

I also did not mean "akward" in the way most people think. Not ever firing one, but knowing a little bit about physics it is hard to believe that drawing this bow back did not put unequal pressures on the wrist.

The Yumi is probably the most versatile bow of the era, allowing the user to fire in many different stances and positions. Firing a long bow while crouched was certainly not an option, but was very possible with a Yumi.

Any discussion on armor would probably be futile. The fact is the armor the japanese used changed so dramatically, from iron, laminated scale, to bamboo and then back heavy iron/steel european style clam breast plates. The later functional japanese armor was bullet proof for the era (breast piece was), as matchlock arqubusiers were being used during the period by some armies.

I suppose this means, depending on the era, you could have them lightly armored, medium armored or moderate to heavily armored ;p

Pocus

January 30th, 2004, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by Potatoman:
Pocus, can you explain why they should be more expensive? In terms of magic paths, 7 for 310 and 4 for 200 is actually a pretty poor cost/magic ratio when you compare it standard mages of the other nations.

Mahotsukai Master: 7 magic levels, 310 gold. High Stats, sacred.
Mahotsukai Adept: 4 levels, 200 gold. High stats, sacred.
It stems from their ice & fire immunity. Even more powerful with a bodyguard of Yamabushi monk which happens to be double-immune too (handy!). No friendly fire from area spells cast, ability of fighting under a firestorm (or just wait for your enemy to turn into cinder), immunity to the not uncommon murdering winter (and the rarer Flames for the sky) which is an equalizer against mages (one of the sole method of countering armies of 50+ mages of an enemy). I also note that they have a very good precision (13) compared to Abysia mages (7) which dont suffer from friendly fire, but are useless for evocation magic. Not yours, by far.
I strongly suggest you reduce to 50% their resistance, its too abusable really.

You failed to compare them to a mage with a fire immunity : the warlock, 270 gp, NOT holy, and 6 paths. Or the Grand Master, No immunities, 270 gp, Holy, 6 paths. Your is better, hands down!

secondary subject : Holy cost compared to non holy would be at +50% I would say.

(Its constructive critic, I dont intend to turn down your very good mod.)

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Yes, actually, it is that useful. How long do your mages Last? Mine tend to Last 20 turns or so, average, I estimate. Let's compare two 100 gold mages, with level-2 water magic. One scared, one non-sacred.

Normal: Total cost after 20 turns is 233 gold.
Sacred: Total cost after 20 turns is 166 gold.

So the sacred one is much cheaper, and gets whatever bless benefits you may have (possibly reinvigoration, air shield, life after death, quickness...). Much cheaper and potentially much better!

For research, 70% is a bit overpriced, of course - the breakeven point is 70 turns, which is too long. A 60% premium gives a 45-turn breakeven point, which might be a little more fair, considering the normal game length. But generally, as Zen mentioned, it is the cheapest mages that are used for research.As always, Cherry, a well-reasoned reply. Thanks. It's much clearer now. I also liked the typo "one scared". I do actually have a mage with Battle Fright. heh

BTW, my mages Last well past turn 50 as I keep them researching and making items prior to that. I rarely send theme mages into combat. I use summons with magic skill for that. I also play on the Orania map, with indies at 5-7, so I have more time to develop.

With regards to using the cheap mages for research, I don't. Not until I can hire sages. The only theme mages I buy are the best ones. Each player has their own style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Saber Cherry

January 30th, 2004, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
With regards to using the cheap mages for research, I don't. Not until I can hire sages. The only theme mages I buy are the best ones. Each player has their own style. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Actually, same here, since I always take drain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif But I'm anomalous, I think. And even drained cheap mages are good researchers once they hit level-1 and get an owl quill and skull mentor...

Which reminds me of a new magic item I'm going to add, the "Cerebral Accelerator". A helm, it doubles a mage's total research output... BUT AT WHAT COST??? Bwahahahaha!!!!

Edit. Note: I got the idea from Vernor Vinge's "A Deepness in the Sky", in which a virus is specially bred to infect people with a specialized form of autism, for use as intelligent slaves, or "thinking computers".

[ January 30, 2004, 20:24: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

January 30th, 2004, 10:33 PM

I'd hate to see your army when you play with Pythium or Pangaea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

While it's not an 'only' thing. You can use whatever you want for researchers, you shouldn't be lowering the cost or not adjusting it to it's appropriate level because of research unless that is the nations only mage then it could be a factor. You shouldn't base a nations research only on it's top mage, even if people want to play that way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Potatoman:
Mahotsukai Master: 7 magic levels, 310 gold. High Stats, sacred.
Mahotsukai Adept: 4 levels, 200 gold. High stats, sacred.
I strongly suggest you reduce to 50% their resistance, its too abusable really.

secondary subject : Holy cost compared to non holy would be at +50% I would say.<hr /></blockquote>With resists lowered to 50% for fire & ice, what would you set as their cost? I'm thinking of 475 & 300, respectively.

BTW, great point about the abuse of using the monks as bodyguards for the mages.

Arryn

January 30th, 2004, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Actually, same here, since I always take drain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif But I'm anomalous, I think. And even drained cheap mages are good researchers once they hit level-1 and get an owl quill and skull mentor...I take drain-1 too. For me, it's usually skulls and lanterns. I tend to find more imperative uses for my air gems.

Zen has his style, and you and I have ours. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

January 30th, 2004, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Which reminds me of a new magic item I'm going to add, the "Cerebral Accelerator". A helm, it doubles a mage's total research output... BUT AT WHAT COST??? Bwahahahaha!!!!
Just have them get Feeblemind and Mute (so they are worthless for anything) and make the item cursed (This would be great for R'lyeh, Squiddies just having 'brain food' sitting around feeding them psychic energy).

Reminds me of Stephen King's the Tommyknockers with the dog ;P

Kristoffer O

January 31st, 2004, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:

2. The world's longest bows also had the world's longest arrows. This means that a 42KG draw (~100 lbs) would propel the arrow for longer than an equivalent English Longbow--so it actually had higher velocities, could travel longer distances, and hit harder.

Welsh - tall men - long arms - long draws possible.
Japanese - short men - short arms - short draws possible
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 30, 2004, 22:43: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Arryn

January 31st, 2004, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Japanese - short men - short arms - short draws possibleSigh. And the stereotyped myth continues ...

Kristoffer O

January 31st, 2004, 01:15 AM

Sorry, I also like the unconventional hull penetrating myths better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

johan osterman

January 31st, 2004, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Japanese - short men - short arms - short draws possibleSigh. And the stereotyped myth continues ... <hr /></blockquote>We know what the japanese look like, they are small blue gnome like people living in mushrooms.

Arryn

January 31st, 2004, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
We know what the japanese look like, they are small blue gnome like people living in mushrooms. Gah! Too much anime! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I'll bet the WW2 Japanese fighter pilots, who had to be 6' tall or better, must come as a surprise to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

(Yes, I spend many hours a week watching the History Channel -- when I'm not playing Dom 2.)

Kristoffer O

January 31st, 2004, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johan osterman:
We know what the japanese look like, they are small blue gnome like people living in mushrooms. Gah! Too much anime! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

I'll bet the WW2 Japanese fighter pilots, who had to be 6' tall or better, must come as a surprise to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

(Yes, I spend many hours a week watching the History Channel -- when I'm not playing Dom 2.) <hr /></blockquote>Swedes are at least 7' so I'm not bothered.

Lord_Devi

January 31st, 2004, 01:52 AM

I'll bet the WW2 Japanese fighter pilots, who had to be 6' tall or better, must come as a surprise to you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

(Yes, I spend many hours a week watching the History Channel -- when I'm not playing Dom 2.) That's complete crap http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif The japanese couldn't suit up thier ENTIRE air force with 6 foot tall Japenese. Don't believe everything you see on TV - It's possible though that maybe there was some sort of special unit maybe using some foreign design - or something.. that merely required different pilot dimensions. I mean really, other than the size of the cockpit(which were designed by japs), there's no reason to have tall pilots.

Arryn

January 31st, 2004, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Swedes are at least 7' so I'm not bothered. Aren't Swedes under 9' considered runts? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

BTW, is that 7' the height or size of ego? Or both? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Uh-Nu-Buh

January 31st, 2004, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Welsh - tall men - long arms - long draws possible.
Japanese - short men - short arms - short draws possible
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Well, I believe the height remark space is actually true. I lived in Japan for years, and the older the generation the shorter the people. According to statistics, the average height of a Japanese man was 5'4" before WWII, and it has steadily gone up ever since. One theory is better nourishment, another is the interracial mingling with Americans and Europeans that has increasingly taken place.

As for the Short Draw, that is not correct. The arrows are extra long, with the space between teh bow and the bow-string at the nocking point to be relatively narrow. The arrow is drawn back behind the ear, whereas with a European-style bow the arrow is drawn back to the cheek. The string keeps contact, and keeps pushing the arrow, for a longer distance, thus keeping the acceleration going for a longer time, thus giving the arrow a higher launching velocity. v=a*t. This is why the arrow is so effective at hitting small targets at over 120 meters. 100 meters is the regular distance event that even beginners participate in. 120 is the special seated event at Sanjusangendo temple. Long distance events will send arrows (fairly accurately) up to 300 meters. Fairly accurately meaning elephant sized targets--not eye-sockets.

It's a great bow, but just to put it in perspective, modern compound bows are much more powerful and accurate--unless you are talking about the mythological bows of the Heike era.

Uh-Nu-Buh

January 31st, 2004, 02:31 AM

Japanese Magic Items

Heike Bow -- the 7 man bow that sank ships. Make it do double strength damage?

Grass Sword -- this is one of the three gifts of the Sun Goddess to the Imperial Line. It is a very powerful sword. Not much is known of it, other than it cuts enemies down as if they were grass. Multiple enemies hit each time it is swung?

Sun Mirror -- this is a charm device. It is another of the three gifts of the Sun Goddess. Everyone who views it is under the power of the wielder.

Brass Bell -- demons, spirits, conjured troops are banished by it's sound.

Kappa Cup -- the commander with this can take his troops under water.

Arryn

January 31st, 2004, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by Lord_Devi:
That's complete crap http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif The japanese couldn't suit up thier ENTIRE air force with 6 foot tall Japenese. Don't believe everything you see on TV - It's possible though that maybe there was some sort of special unit maybe using some foreign design - or something.. that merely required different pilot dimensions. I mean really, other than the size of the cockpit(which were designed by japs), there's no reason to have tall pilots. I'll dissect your "rebuttal" sentence by sentence:

1. No crap. Check it out for yourself. It's easy enough to do. When you have a documented counter, then come back to me and tell me I'm full of it. Otherwise, be civil and mind your tongue.

2. I never said their whole air force. I said fighter pilots. Ever heard of the "Zero"? (The A6M, to be precise.)

3a. Newsreel footage, shot by the Japanese themselves, along with veterans who are still alive today.

3b. The Japanese did not use foreign designs. At least not until after 1943 or so, and then it was their own heavily-modified (improved) Versions of the German jet and rocket fighters. It's a little appreciated fact in the West that the Japanese had the world's most advanced air force in 1941, even over the Germans.

4. Sure there is. Pride. The Nazi SS originally only accepted tall, blonde, blue-eyed (etc) recruits (from "pedigreed" families). As the war progressed, they had to lower the standards -- a lot. The Japanese wanting tall pilots had to do with the logic of politics rather than the logic of engineering or combat.

Arryn

January 31st, 2004, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
I lived in Japan for years, and the older the generation the shorter the people. According to statistics, the average height of a Japanese man was 5'4" before WWIITrue, but misleading. Averages do not mean anything when taken in an inappropriate context. The average American male height is 5'10", yet there are 7'6" basketball players, and any BB player under about 6'9" is considered short. A population average is meaningless when discussing special Groups. Japanese fighter pilots were elites. There were considered, at the time, modern samurai.

With regards to medieval samurai, also bear in mind that nobles ate better than commoners, and had better housing, health care (such as it was), and bloodlines. The average peasant in Europe or Japan was short, but the nobles often were not. There are plenty of tall medieval suits of armor in museums. Someone had to fit in them when they were made ...

Arryn

January 31st, 2004, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
Kappa Cup -- the commander with this can take his troops under water. Sounds just like Sea King's Goblet ...

PDF

January 31st, 2004, 02:46 AM

A little remark also : encumbrance amongst the munted units in the mod is uneven, Daimyo has 1 and Horse Samurai 3.
Mod guidelines suggest a 5 for mounted troops : is this change a design decision ?

Pocus

January 31st, 2004, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Potatoman:
Mahotsukai Master: 7 magic levels, 310 gold. High Stats, sacred.
Mahotsukai Adept: 4 levels, 200 gold. High stats, sacred.
I strongly suggest you reduce to 50% their resistance, its too abusable really.

secondary subject : Holy cost compared to non holy would be at +50% I would say.<hr /></blockquote>With resists lowered to 50% for fire & ice, what would you set as their cost? I'm thinking of 475 & 300, respectively.

BTW, great point about the abuse of using the monks as bodyguards for the mages. <hr /></blockquote>they are sacred but are not priests, so no need to increase by the whole 50%, in my opinion. IF you reduce their resistance to 50%, something around +70 gp for the master, and +40 gp for the apprentice would seem right, but here too we will need some time to get the right feeling about them. I suspect the high accuracy is a tremendous advantage, combined with their quickness from spell and holy quickness (dunno if it stacks in fact). They can transform themselves into sharpshooters on steroids http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Osium

January 31st, 2004, 09:16 AM

I don't know if it is correct to say the Japanese airforce was the most advanced in the world in 1941.

I mean, the Zero was a good plane when compared to the clunkers the Americans were using. The german me109 for all its glory is about as highly over-rated as the Zero.

Once the Americans got some planes that could climb and handle somewhat decently the advantage in manueverability the Zero enjoyed was gone, as was the aura of invincibilty of the Zero. The Zero became a death trap for its pilots who were sitting ducks for faster American planes that simply climbed away from the Zero only to turn and strafe them.

In 1941 I would say the British had the "best" fighters in the world.

The Zero was the most manueverable plane of the time, but it was like flying a card board box, no pilot protection, no armor for the tanks. When they got hit they went down.

Lets compare and contrast the Hurricane and the ME-109.

Armament, the 109 wins hands down. Manueverability, technically the ME-109 was more manueverable, however due to being a difficult plane to handle very few German pilots ever pushed the plane to its limit. This afforded the Hurricane a win in the overall manueverability due to the fact that an average British/Canadian or American pilot in a Hurricane could get more out of the plane than a German in a 109. The Hurricane also had better cockpit visibility and a higher top speed. However because it used a carborator it had a tendancy to choke out in high G dives, whereas the 109 used fuel injection which defeated that flaw in the Hurricane. The 109 also had a tiny fuel capacity and no ability to carry external drop tanks if memory serves.

In the end most people agree the Hurricane was the best early war fighter in all theaters due to a WIDE range of things.

Liken the Hurricane to a Leopard, and the Zero to a cheetah. Highly specialized versus a more well rounded package. The hurricane was around the entire war and was one of the top fighters throughout the war, the Zero on the other hand went the way of most specialists in evolution, extinction. It was replaced by faster, heavier armored better climbing planes eventually. The Zero was used throughout the war, but it was by no means the top plane in the Japanese airforce by wars end.

However, if you mean the fact that the Japanese were the first to really key on the Aircraft Carrier as the key to naval combat and aerial power projection then you are dead on and sorry for my tangent ;p

Kristoffer O

January 31st, 2004, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
they are sacred but are not priests, so no need to increase by the whole 50%, in my opinion. IF you reduce their resistance to 50%, something around +70 gp for the master, and +40 gp for the apprentice would seem right, but here too we will need some time to get the right feeling about them. I suspect the high accuracy is a tremendous advantage, combined with their quickness from spell and holy quickness (dunno if it stacks in fact). They can transform themselves into sharpshooters on steroids http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Some days ago I expanded the modding guidelines (http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/modinstructions.html) . Mage costs and resources will be added.

Arryn

January 31st, 2004, 12:19 PM

Potatoman,

I have created, using GIMP, a .tga "flag" icon with an authentic japanese clan mon, in the same color of the mod's normal banner, but using one of Unwise's white kite shields as the background. Wasn't quite as hard as I originally thought it'd be. The mon image could probably use a bit of touch-up work by someone who's better with paint programs than I, but it's serviceable for now. Please let me know if you'd like me to send it to you. I can also send you my modified Version of the mod's .dm file, if you'd like to see the changes I've been playing with in my game. (I'm on turn 33 now, having wiped out Ulm a couple of turns ago after a series of bloody battles.) The file also includes numerous typo edits and such.

The great thing about the Dom 2 mod system is that you can apply a change to a mod like this and have it take effect without having to start a new game. All you need to do is exit the game and reload.

Cheers!

Pocus

January 31st, 2004, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pocus:
they are sacred but are not priests, so no need to increase by the whole 50%, in my opinion. IF you reduce their resistance to 50%, something around +70 gp for the master, and +40 gp for the apprentice would seem right, but here too we will need some time to get the right feeling about them. I suspect the high accuracy is a tremendous advantage, combined with their quickness from spell and holy quickness (dunno if it stacks in fact). They can transform themselves into sharpshooters on steroids http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Some days ago I expanded the modding guidelines (http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/modinstructions.html) . Mage costs and resources will be added. <hr /></blockquote>haha, at least the proof that Caelum High Seraph are largelly underpriced. They should cost at least 250 gp, and add to this flying and frost immune. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Arryn

January 31st, 2004, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by Pocus:
IF you reduce their resistance to 50%BTW, I just noticed in the modding doc that in 2.06, regardless of the resist % that you set, it will give you 100%. So we must wait for patch 2.07+ before the ashikaga mages can have only 50% resist. Until then I suppose people will try to abuse them. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Potatoman

January 31st, 2004, 11:49 PM

Arryn is correct, modding resistances under 100% is not possible in 2.06. I commented a few pages ago that the nobody would be totally immune to fire or cold when it was possible to do that. Resistances of all the Monks will be about 50-75% for the next Version.

I'm slightly incredulous about the steep cost increase for sacred units, especially when standard Dominions nations give sacred status on to otherwise decent units for practicaly no cost increase- just look at High seraph, any Theurg, or Masters of The Way. Both Mahotsukai Master and Adept have lost their sacred status, and their costs have been reduced.

Arryn: awesome. Sure, send them to my e-mail at popkon_thepotatoman@yahoo.com, and I'll take a look. If the flag is nice it'll be included as an option in the next Version.

The fastest way to test changes in a mod is to set up two games, one with the mod and one without. Loading the unmodded game, exiting to the main menu, then resuming the mod game forces Dominions 2 to re-load all the mod information from the source files.

Work continues on the mod. At the moment, National heroes and summons are under construction. Unfortunately, heroes cannot be renamed and their magic skills cannot be cleared (though the other skills can, in fact, be wiped by creating a new monster using their #.) Anyone found a way around this?

[ January 31, 2004, 22:00: Message edited by: Potatoman ]

Graeme Dice

February 1st, 2004, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
haha, at least the proof that Caelum High Seraph are largelly underpriced. They should cost at least 250 gp, and add to this flying and frost immune.If you're going to double the cost of High seraphs then you had better also make the Caelum military useful beyond attacking light infantry and militia independents.

Uh-Nu-Buh

February 1st, 2004, 02:57 AM

Medieval Armor Sizes

This page shows several suits of European armor from the middle ages, average height is 6' solid:

http://www.artlex.com/ArtLex/a/armsarmor.html

This page shows several suits of Japanese armor. All the armor from before 1920 is below 5'6" in height. The armor from 1940 and since grows larger in size. The one complete set from the middle ages is 4'8".

http://www.jcollector.com/directory/Japanese:Armor_and_Sword:Armor.html

My earlier remark about height was not meant to be a part of the fighter pilot thread. I know very little about zeros and the pilots who flew them. I do know something about Japanese literature, and I can say that the short stories and novels published during and early after WWII all spoke of the Americans as Giants.

Pocus

February 1st, 2004, 11:09 AM

hehe, you never saw a group of Temple Guards in icy weather? They mow down nearly any other mundane unit, and I dont even speak of their magic weapon, rather handy against etheralness...

Caelum units are fine, because they have to be a compensation for flying, which is a very big pain in the rear for any nation fighting them. It gives them the most valuable ability of 'forking' several objectives, that is the capability of having many targets of interest in range, thus hardening considerably the task of the defencer.

In a previous pbem I fought a Caelian player during 40 turns, and it was not a pleasure, all your provinces are in range of any of his armies!

Kristoffer O

February 1st, 2004, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Pocus:
haha, at least the proof that Caelum High Seraph are largelly underpriced. They should cost at least 250 gp, and add to this flying and frost immune. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Haha! They are supposed to be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PrinzMegaherz

February 1st, 2004, 12:34 PM

If it comes to heroes, I would like to see Lone Wulf - Assassin with son from that old B-movie Shogun Assassin http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . Make him an Assassin, give him multiple attacks (for the the boy in his cart), give him very high attack and defense values but low protection.

Anyways, your mod is great. Keep it up!

[ February 01, 2004, 10:34: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

Daynarr

February 6th, 2004, 09:16 PM

Any news about this mod? New updates or something?

It's great mod btw. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Potatoman

February 6th, 2004, 09:48 PM

Thanks, Daynarr. Actually, v2.0 of the mod is as done as I can make it right now without improved modding tools, so I'm really just waiting for the next patch to release Version 2.

So far Version 2 allows 21 units total (7 more than v1.02) including national heroes, a national summoning tech tree of Tengu & Oni, and some extra balancing on existing units (much of it was suggested in this thread).

Scott Hebert

February 6th, 2004, 10:54 PM

A little history lesson for people.. (not towards Potatoman, who I'm sure knows all of this)

The time period that Potatoman has based his mod on, the Sengoku Jidai (in English, the Warring States Period), Lasted for about 100 years, from the 1480s to 1600. In most people's minds, the Sengoku Jidai is even more closely associated with the Last part of that time period, with the 3 Great Unifiers of Nobunaga, Toyotomi, and Ieyasu.

Most of the suggestions you are giving Potatoman, regarding such things as the bow, mounted troops vs. unmounted troops, etc., are historically inaccurate. While it is true that in earlier times the samurai was a mounted archer (say, at the end of the Heian period where the Heike Monogatari (the Tale of the Heike) is situated, by the latter parts of the Sengoku Jidai period, the samurai was a foot soldier, much more akin to the Kurosawa film Versions. While the debate about mounts and bows is interesting, I'm afraid it doesn't really impinge on Potatoman's mod, historically. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

For a good cinematic representative of Sengoku Jidai samurai, Ran is a good example. I think this is the feel, at least militarily, that Potatoman is trying to capture in his mod.

Regarding the bow specifically, it really is intereting. There is the daikyu, the asymmetric bow mainly meant to be used from horseback. That is the bow that most here have been discussing. However, there are mentions earlier of something called the o-yumi, or great bow. The funny thing is that no actual remains of it have been found. Apparently, it was a huge crossbow used as a siege engine that Japan imported from China after the Taika Reforms of 645. Basically, it sounds like a ballista to me.

Having taken 3 Japanese history courses Last quarter, and graduating with a degree in Japanese at the end of it, tends to fill your head with some of the most interesting trivia. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Bayushi Tasogare
Japanese 'Buff'

Arralen

February 9th, 2004, 08:46 PM

One suggestion of undoubtable historically correctness:

There wasn't, and isn't, a word as "hara-kiri".
It was "invented" by americans who didn't get another word right, can't remember which one though.
It is shurely possible to google for the whole story.

Ritual self-disembodyment (sp?) was and is called "seppuku".

Given that you did this rather avoidable mistake, I wonder how well-researched everything else is?

edited: spelling error - shame on me!

[ February 09, 2004, 19:29: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Arryn

February 9th, 2004, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Arralen:
One suggestion of undoubtable historically correctness:

There wasn't, and isn't, a word as "hara-kiri".
It was "invented" by americans who didn't get another word right, can't remember which one though.
It is shurely possible to google for the whole story.

Ritual self-disembodyment (sp?) was and is called "seppuko".

Given that you did this rather avoidable mistake, I wonder how well-researched everything else is? He also has the short sword misnamed. The correct name is "wakizashi".

I'm sure that if we go through his mod with a very critical eye we'll find other quirks. Rather than nitpick textual inaccuracies, I think it's more productive to evaluate the units themselves, and the gameplay of the mod as a whole.

Still, if you feel that perfect text is most important, you are certainly entitled to that view. However, it is *my* view that you can, and should, be somewhat less confrontational in presenting your findings than to use a statement such as "Given that you did this rather avoidable mistake, I wonder how well-researched everything else is?" It's rude.

Scott Hebert

February 9th, 2004, 09:23 PM

The term is actually 'seppuku'. That was the ritual suicide by self-disembowelment of samurai, yes. 'Hara-kiri' literally means 'stomach-cut' and is an accepted though not strictly accurate equivalent, true.

If the 'well researched' thing was meant towards me, I don't recall using the term 'hara-kiri' anywhere in my post, and I can only say that my information is as current as I could have it 2 months ago when I was taking my classes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Bayushi Tasogare

Potatoman

February 9th, 2004, 09:31 PM

As far as I can tell from googling, Hara-Kiri is an english construction of the words Abdomen (hara) and the verb to cut (kiri) which has become prevalent pretty much everywhere. Hara-Kiri and Seuppuku both refer to the same ritual suicide ceremony, often dual-listed together under the same heading in a dictionary.

Regardless, I'm not attempting strict historical accuracy. None of the standard Dominions races are made to flawlessly represent ancient civilizations, and I'm not trying for perfection in that regard either. The O-Ban great guard, for example, were created after the unification but are recruitable units in the mod. Likewise Tengu, Oni and Yurei are only myths and their inclusion would be historicaly inaccurate, yet they are summonable.