Seeking map or need advice on making it [Archive]

diamondspider

January 30th, 2004, 05:28 PM

I'm looking for a map for PBEM with the following traits:

1) 2 player and about 35 provinces,
2) land only,
3) starting locations limited to perhaps 4, all of which are carefully chosen to be "fair" for two player e.g. not cramped in a corner or in the center.

The idea is to make a map that is good for beginners, like me, to practice on without the complexities involved in water and without the long turn cycles often required when many players are involved: aka a newbie map http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I sort of suspect that this map doesn't exist, or at least I haven't been able to find it.

Assuming it hasn't already been done, any suggestions of where I could find an appropriate base graphic, or any other tips or suggestions on how I might best go about creating such a map would be much appreciated!

[ January 30, 2004, 16:13: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

diamondspider

January 30th, 2004, 06:56 PM

OK, I have the map scanned in and understand the map editor tool.

I'm stuck on how to indicate the locations of the territories in the map tga file.

[ January 30, 2004, 16:56: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Targa

January 30th, 2004, 06:59 PM

Do you have pure white 1-pixel dots where each capitol is supposed to be (and no pure white anywhere else on the map)?

I've asked in another thread if anyone knows if the built-in prog works well, and if someone could explain how to use it, since there are no instructions at all, but no responses.

Basically it goes like this: You make/get a tga map. Make sure it has no white pixels. Draw province borders in your paint prog, and 1-pixel pure white dots where the capitols are supposed to be. Load it in the Dom2 map editor and every capitol should have a white flag on it. Then you have to start assigning stuff...somehow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I've tried clicking, and get an arrow from the current province to the one I clicked on (no idea what that's supposed to mean). Tried right-clicking to change the active province (that doesn't work). No idea....

[ January 30, 2004, 17:02: Message edited by: Targa ]

diamondspider

January 30th, 2004, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Targa:
Do you have pure white 1-pixel dots where each capitol is supposed to be (and no pure white anywhere else on the map)?

I've asked in another thread if anyone knows if the built-in prog works well, and if someone could explain how to use it, since there are no instructions at all, but no responses.

Basically it goes like this: You make/get a tga map. Make sure it has no white pixels. Draw province borders in your paint prog, and 1-pixel pure white dots where the capitols are supposed to be. Load it in the Dom2 map editor and every capitol should have a white flag on it. Then you have to start assigning stuff...somehow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I've tried clicking, and get an arrow from the current province to the one I clicked on (no idea what that's supposed to mean). Tried right-clicking to change the active province (that doesn't work). No idea.... HA! Thanks, that is pretty simple. I saw the white dots on the maps but thought there was more to it than that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks again!

P.S. the arrows show where you can move to and you can Ctrl-click to remove an arrow.

[ January 30, 2004, 17:19: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Gandalf Parker

January 30th, 2004, 07:08 PM

I could easily whip out 50 or so with DomMap that you could pick from. But even if it does look like it offers you a balanced game you might want to lock in the starting provinces.

diamondspider

January 30th, 2004, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I could easily whip out 50 or so with DomMap that you could pick from. But even if it does look like it offers you a balanced game you might want to lock in the starting provinces. Yup, I love that "No Start" feature. I'm sure I can create a few per side that are fair. I think that if they are each exactly one off of all edges and are surrounded by the same number of types of provinces plus having the large provinces only in the center that it should be very fair.

Also, no starting on fresh water and I'll probably start the players on large, mountain, just to givem a jump-start http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Any other ideas to add?

Gandalf Parker

January 30th, 2004, 07:35 PM

Most maps will hit a limit if you do #nostart. Those are best for marking off a large map with certain provinces which would suck as a starting capital, such as a 1-province island.

Better to use #start and pick a bunch of locations. The game will make sure that all players start in one of those spots. Makes for a shorter list.

diamondspider

January 30th, 2004, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Most maps will hit a limit if you do #nostart. Those are best for marking off a large map with certain provinces which would suck as a starting capital, such as a 1-province island.

Better to use #start and pick a bunch of locations. The game will make sure that all players start in one of those spots. Makes for a shorter list. Nice idea! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks again...

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 12:26 AM

Wow, that was easy: all done!

Thanks again for your help, guys. I'll post it tomorrow.

[ January 30, 2004, 22:36: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Targa

January 31st, 2004, 01:13 AM

Already?!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif If you can make a map that quickly, I'm throwing in the towel! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This is all I've gotten done in a day and a half so far:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ January 30, 2004, 23:21: Message edited by: Targa ]

Kristoffer O

January 31st, 2004, 01:30 AM

Splendid!

I feel my spirits rise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Already?!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif If you can make a map that quickly, I'm throwing in the towel! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This is all I've gotten done in a day and a half so far:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Hehehe... Well, being a computer professional for 22 years helps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I found a GREAT map that was given by a fan of D&D to the public domain via Wizards of the Coast.

Only thing now is that it needs balance testing meaning I get to play it 10 or 20 times http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Final count is 39 provinces, all land.

Maybe someone can help me test it tomorrow.

P.S. Your map looks great! I like it a lot.

I might try to use my Campaign Cartographer too and see how that works. Pretty cool program, that.

[ January 30, 2004, 23:44: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Targa

January 31st, 2004, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Splendid!

I feel my spirits rise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Yes, I finally downloaded and installed GIMP, just so I could change the format of the xcf mapstuff pics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I'm following your excellent examples....or trying to, at least. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Johan K

January 31st, 2004, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by diamondspider:
1) Can't find a list of site numbers. Sunray has a great list posted of the sites available but I need the associated numbers!

2) #start is a nice command, but it seems that the starting postions aren't random if it is used. I need confirmation on Gandalf's statement that if I use #nostart 37 times that it will cause a problem. If there is no way to randomize between 2 starting locations it will sink this map idea!? 1. You can use the name instead, like "volcano"

2. The nostart limit was for old Dominions I. There is no limit in Dominions II.

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 03:10 PM

Gandalf Parker

January 31st, 2004, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Johan K:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by diamondspider:
1) Can't find a list of site numbers. Sunray has a great list posted of the sites available but I need the associated numbers!

2) #start is a nice command, but it seems that the starting postions aren't random if it is used. I need confirmation on Gandalf's statement that if I use #nostart 37 times that it will cause a problem. If there is no way to randomize between 2 starting locations it will sink this map idea!? 1. You can use the name instead, like "volcano"

2. The nostart limit was for old Dominions I. There is no limit in Dominions II. <hr /></blockquote>Yes I have an old memory and sometimes its hard to kep 1 and 2 straight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As I remember it, not only could you use the name but you HAD to use it. A problem for me. By any chance did Dom2 change that? Are numbers now useable with sites?

And if I read the MapEdit correct I thought #start was used to set a possible starting position and #specstart was used to lock a nation to one starting position. Doesnt #start randomize the assignments? Great on the no limit but the old almost-programmer in me wouild want to use whichever one creates the shortest list. If its shorter to mark the nostarts then I would do that. If its shorter to mark the starts then that seems a good idea (my maps take forever to come up anyway so any little bit helps)

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Yes I have an old memory and sometimes its hard to kep 1 and 2 straight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As I remember it, not only could you use the name but you HAD to use it. A problem for me. By any chance did Dom2 change that? Are numbers now useable with sites?

And if I read the MapEdit correct I thought #start was used to set a possible starting position and #specstart was used to lock a nation to one starting position. Doesnt #start randomize the assignments? Great on the no limit but the old almost-programmer in me wouild want to use whichever one creates the shortest list. If its shorter to mark the nostarts then I would do that. If its shorter to mark the starts then that seems a good idea (my maps take forever to come up anyway so any little bit helps) Yup, you MUST use the name of the site. That was just misreading the docs on my part.

I tried #start and unless I flipped 7 heads in a row, it doesn't appear to be random. [would be nice to get confirmation on this, of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ]

Fortunately using #nostart is fairly easy although time consuming and bug-prone since it is easy to forget to click one of the boxes.

Still, most people seem to prefer random games so this shouldn't be a huge issue.

I'm uploading the map now and would love any feedback, suggestions and such on my first effort when (and if) they choose to deem it worthy and post it..

I plan on testing it for several weeks since I'm trying to use asymmetrical balance and that is very hard to achieve. Eventually I'd like to have it so that a strong player who was going to be assigned a random god would have no preference for which of the 2 placements they got dealt.

The goals of the map have expanded to the following uses:

1) Good for new players to practice on since there are no complexities of water and games are relatively short compared with the many larger maps,

2) A balanced game that feels a bit more "chess like" by removing most of the starting luck but still allowing the main *feel* of luck that is part of Dom2 by not overdoing the hard placement of creatures, sites, etc..

3) A game that is small enough to finish in a 3 hourish time-span so nice for a network play session. I wanted it to be just big enough to get some nice strong magic going but not so big as to take longer than one session usually allows time for.

4) For PBEM use, it might be a nice way for newer players to practice via email without worrying about spending weeks in a large game that has long turn cycles and/or getting embarassed about newbie skills.

[ January 31, 2004, 15:07: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Targa

January 31st, 2004, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by diamondspider:
OK, map is done but I am having two final problems:

1) Can't find a list of site numbers. Sunray has a great list posted of the sites available but I need the associated numbers!

2) #start is a nice command, but it seems that the starting postions aren't random if it is used. I need confirmation on Gandalf's statement that if I use #nostart 37 times that it will cause a problem. If there is no way to randomize between 2 starting locations it will sink this map idea!? Umm...to limit starting locations to 4 (as you stated originally), I think you could just use #start <province number> in 4 provinces on one side of the map, and the same for 4 on the opposite side. In a 2-player game, the computer should place you on opposite sides of the map, in one of the 4 provinces listed as #start locations.?

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Targa:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by diamondspider:
OK, map is done but I am having two final problems:

1) Can't find a list of site numbers. Sunray has a great list posted of the sites available but I need the associated numbers!

2) #start is a nice command, but it seems that the starting postions aren't random if it is used. I need confirmation on Gandalf's statement that if I use #nostart 37 times that it will cause a problem. If there is no way to randomize between 2 starting locations it will sink this map idea!? Umm...to limit starting locations to 4 (as you stated originally), I think you could just use #start <province number> in 4 provinces on one side of the map, and the same for 4 on the opposite side. In a 2-player game, the computer should place you on opposite sides of the map, in one of the 4 provinces listed as #start locations.? <hr /></blockquote>-I went with 2 locations as there wasn't enough room to have 4.

-It SEEMS that #start places the human in the same place every time. Not sure with 2 humans as I haven't tested it MP yet. I'd certainly want it random though and it works perfectly with #nostart.

Targa

January 31st, 2004, 06:46 PM

Where did you upload the map to?

P.S. If anyone's interested, I updated the web image to show the (slow) progress I've been makng:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

[ January 31, 2004, 17:55: Message edited by: Targa ]

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Targa:
Where did you upload the map to? Sent it to Kriss, hopefully he'll post it soon on Illwinter.

It needs a lot of testing for balance purposes and I'll send in a new Version in a few weeks.

Any helpful testers would be appreciated.

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Targa:

P.S. If anyone's interested, I updated the web image to show the (slow) progress I've been makng:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg Wow, that is looking really great!

Are you going to let the sea races go up that river?

Looks like a map I'd really like to try http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gandalf Parker

January 31st, 2004, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by diamondspider:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Targa:
Where did you upload the map to? Sent it to Kriss, hopefully he'll post it soon on Illwinter.

It needs a lot of testing for balance purposes and I'll send in a new Version in a few weeks.

Any helpful testers would be appreciated. <hr /></blockquote>I dont think Illwinter likes to put up anything not considered finished. If you want to send it to me I can post it so you have a link to refer to here.

Gandalf Parker
-- to email me change the Parker to @community.net

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I dont think Illwinter likes to put up anything not considered finished. If you want to send it to me I can post it so you have a link to refer to here.

Gandalf Parker
-- to email me change the Parker to @community.net Actually, they even have a section for incomplete stuff.

In any case, here it comes!

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 09:57 PM

Here is the link that Gandalf so kindly provided http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Talis.rar

Again, this Version IS DONE. The only change in the next Version will be tweaking to try and make the two sides as perfectly balanced as I can. Since that task is impossible, it probably won't be too different http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 31, 2004, 19:58: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Targa

January 31st, 2004, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by diamondspider:
Wow, that is looking really great!

Are you going to let the sea races go up that river?

Looks like a map I'd really like to try http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Thanks for the encouragement! As Gandalf like's to say..."people don't know how to pay for free stuff anymore". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif A little positive feedback goes a long way! Not sure about letting sea races go upriver. The provinces will be designated as "river" though. Does that make them able to traverse it?

Good timing too, as I came here to make a post and ask if I should continue with this map, or is no one interested in it. Thanks again.

EDIT: Or are you saying I should make the sea and the lakes #neighbors, so you could jump upriver?

[ January 31, 2004, 19:59: Message edited by: Targa ]

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Targa:

...Or are you saying I should make the sea and the lakes #neighbors, so you could jump upriver? Matter of taste, but I would. Otherwise the sea people wouldn't have much access to inland areas at all.

Yeah, I think you map is looking very professional and "offical".

Targa

January 31st, 2004, 10:05 PM

Wow, nice map! Is there any way you can send me the pic without the province borders on it so I can try to rip the mountain grafix out? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Gandalf Parker

January 31st, 2004, 10:06 PM

Targa and DiamondSpider,
Both of your maps look great. DS what did you use to make yours?

As far as I know "river" just does things like affect resources and events (flooding requires access to water). I dont think a province can actually be both land and water as far as movement.

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Targa and DiamondSpider,
Both of your maps look great. DS what did you use to make yours?

As far as I know "river" just does things like affect resources and events (flooding requires access to water). I dont think a province can actually be both land and water as far as movement. Thanks! I didn't make the graphics, I found them posted on the Wizards of the Coast website as a public domain fan map and liked the look of it.

I also own Campaign Cartographer that can make similar maps, but they do take a long time to make with it as it is a flexible but rough tool.

On the other point, he could give the sea creatures access to the inner water areas just by linking the final sea zone at the delta with the lake!

I think that would be nifty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

diamondspider

January 31st, 2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Targa:
Wow, nice map! Is there any way you can send me the pic without the province borders on it so I can try to rip the mountain grafix out? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Yup, I can, need an email addy, or you can get it from the WotC site which might be a few seconds faster http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm a big fan of WotC even though I don't like D&D much (at least not for the Last 10 years).

Hopefully no one will mind this cross-link:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mapofweek/Dec03_Bonus_map_5_150_dpi_fd9h.jpg

[ January 31, 2004, 20:14: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

diamondspider

February 1st, 2004, 02:13 AM

OK, map is done but I am having two final problems:

1) Can't find a list of site numbers. Sunray has a great list posted of the sites available but I need the associated numbers!

2) #start is a nice command, but it seems that the starting postions aren't random if it is used. I need confirmation on Gandalf's statement that if I use #nostart 37 times that it will cause a problem. If there is no way to randomize between 2 starting locations it will sink this map idea!?

diamondspider

February 1st, 2004, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
.... But even if it does look like it offers you a balanced game you might want to lock in the starting provinces. You ended-up being exactly correct about this. In a map this small it was too hard to go for more than 1 starting province each otherwise the balance got wacked.

Good call.

Targa

February 1st, 2004, 05:54 PM

Update on the slow progress on the new map. The borders aren't carved in stone yet, I was just getting a feel for it. May make the provinces smaller in order to fit a large number of them on the map. Decided to go with a different style of borders rather than being heavy-handed with them.

http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

BTW, this is a horizontal wrap-around map. Currently, I think I have something like 56 layers in Photoshop. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 01, 2004, 15:56: Message edited by: Targa ]

diamondspider

February 1st, 2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Targa:
Update on the slow progress on the new map. The borders aren't carved in stone yet, I was just getting a feel for it. May make the provinces smaller in order to fit a large number of them on the map. Decided to go with a different style of borders rather than being heavy-handed with them.

http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

BTW, this is a horizontal wrap-around map. Best looking map I've every seen pratically. Very realistic on the "natural" feel.

I found that making the provinces bigger worked fine as they are about 2x bigger than "standard" on my map, but it plays great (I actually prefer a more spacious feel).

I don't personally like wrap-around, but obviously that is nothing more than preference. In some ways it is more fair, but it seems unrealistic (be a pretty small planet to be able to walk across it in a year or two http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) and it is nice to have edges as defensive strategies become more viable.

I love the idea of sea races to be able to make it up into the fresh water. Were you planning on supporting that?

[ February 01, 2004, 16:00: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Gandalf Parker

February 1st, 2004, 06:38 PM

That Wizards link was great. Walking thru their archives was interesting also.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mw/20040101a

If we can get some more map images to get cut-n-paste icons from it would help. And Im still holding out for finding some old RPG game with a random map generator in almost the same style.

diamondspider

February 1st, 2004, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
That Wizards link was great. Walking thru their archives was interesting also.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mw/20040101a

If we can get some more map images to get cut-n-paste icons from it would help. And Im still holding out for finding some old RPG game with a random map generator in almost the same style. Yeah, and the Campaign Cartographer site has LOTS more. The only problem is that there might be issues with using the Cartographer maps is that they reserve copyright on the individual images. Doubt they'd care though.

My only problem with a random map generator is, well obviously, that it is random.

I've designed about 60 maps for my campaigns over the years, and they are a lot of work to make look realistic. I'd hate to think that a program could ever come close http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PhilD

February 1st, 2004, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by diamondspider:

My only problem with a random map generator is, well obviously, that it is random.

I've designed about 60 maps for my campaigns over the years, and they are a lot of work to make look realistic. I'd hate to think that a program could ever come close http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif No questions here, the typical random generator does a very simple job (there are people out there who do a reasonably good job of writing programs that create "realistic" planets, but a night's quick search didn't reveal any that made them available for free on top of that). But what a random generator can do, is provide you with an endless list of possible maps. Hand-made maps can look great, but they're a lot of work, and require dedicated people with some talent.

I believe there's room for both. Plus, if we managed to make the random generators more user-friendly, it might become a help to the "hand" map designers.

diamondspider

February 1st, 2004, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by PhilD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by diamondspider:

My only problem with a random map generator is, well obviously, that it is random.

I've designed about 60 maps for my campaigns over the years, and they are a lot of work to make look realistic. I'd hate to think that a program could ever come close http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif No questions here, the typical random generator does a very simple job (there are people out there who do a reasonably good job of writing programs that create "realistic" planets, but a night's quick search didn't reveal any that made them available for free on top of that). But what a random generator can do, is provide you with an endless list of possible maps. Hand-made maps can look great, but they're a lot of work, and require dedicated people with some talent.

I believe there's room for both. Plus, if we managed to make the random generators more user-friendly, it might become a help to the "hand" map designers. <hr /></blockquote>Yup... Just personal preference. I've always been a sucker for eye-candy and I'd much prefer to play a map that looked great to one that didn't; even if the one that didn't was tactically superior for the most part.

However, I totally agree that since everyone isn't that way, there is room for both http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

For those who can't draw, or don't have time to do full maps, yet want to make them, another solution is to keep an archive of 10-20 maps that don't have lines marking them yet and to use one tga to make many Dom2 maps.

For example, the one Targa is working on, if he'd keep one without marks on it, could be used to create several cool different feels e.g. wraparound, no sea, lots of sea, big provinces, small provinces, etc. etc.. Same goes for that one that was by a D&D fan that I used.

[ February 01, 2004, 17:21: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Targa

February 1st, 2004, 07:58 PM

To reply w/o quoting (too lazy):

Thanks for the comment on how good it's looking! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Actually, I was thinking of making several Versions, since I'm putting so much time and effort into it. I can make one where sea-races can "swim upriver" (ie: all water provinces border each other), I can make one non-wraparound, another wraparound, etc... I decided on the wraparound because being on or near an edge gives a player an unfair advantage over those who start somewhere in the middle. Though even with a non-wrap Version I'll likely be using the #nostart option.

As for random map generators...that's what created the base map that I'm using. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yes, I'm also trying to collect cut-and-paste map icons. My goal is to eventually be able to provide the community with:

1) A wide variety of pastable map icons.
2) A "coastline" random map generator. (well, not myself, but Phil and Gandalf).
3) A tutorial + Photoshop tutorial explaining the whole process from start to finish.

What I did was to run DomMap until I saw a landmass/watermass shape I liked, then saved the random seed number from it. Changed the command-line switches to slightly alter the appearance until I got what I wanted. Used Photoshop to delete all the color information, province borders, and capitol dots (just saving the outlines of land/water). I have 1600x1200 "beige cloth" and "blue cloth" files that I use for the backgrounds. Working with layers in Photoshop makes it relatively easy.

Oh, and as far as province size goes...I would like to keep them small enough to make a map suitable for a large number of players, but may also make a Version with larger provinces for fewer players. If anyone has any requests (as far as how many players) I'd be happy to add them to my to-do list. Are alot of people still playing Aran map? Need more 2-4 player maps? Smaller maps would, of course, be faster to make. Hmm...that's an idea...

[ February 01, 2004, 18:40: Message edited by: Targa ]

diamondspider

February 2nd, 2004, 12:25 AM

Yes, I'm a big fan of smaller maps.

Why?

1) it is a pain in the neck finding many people who will actually stay around for a game requiring 10+ hours of time,

2) after about turn 40, the micromanagement can get pretty painful in this game, how much more fun is it really to have a few huge spells but spend so much time twiddling with troops?

3) this game, I find, can be very exciting when played on small maps with fewer players, so why hassle with 1 and 2 above when a few players, faster cycles, and less micromanagement is not only possible, but very fun in its own right.

So, long story short, yes, I request a smaller Version (or simply larger territory areas) of your excellent map!

P.S. as a little aside, I just got done playing a 1v1 game on a 39 province map. On turn 18 I got near the enemy capital (played by another human in a network game) and we managed to crash the game due to him having about 20 skeleton summoning C'tis mages. In my mind, this shows that smaller maps are more reasonable since it is currently so easy to exceed the army max and crash the game.

[ February 01, 2004, 22:41: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Gandalf Parker

February 2nd, 2004, 01:41 AM

Just add to the discussion..
Here are some examples of the 3 map-making scripts in GIMP
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp1.jpg
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp2.jpg
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp3.jpg

GIMP is a powerful free paint program used by many programmers (including the developers of Dom2). These scripts generate random maps. Changing the settings is easy. Changing the color pattern is possible but it involves playing with the palette. Creating a gradient palette which it does make fairly easy after you play with it abit. I could switch to automatically creating these instead of the DomMap stuff except these dont fill my needs. Im not patient enough to add the rest.

GIMP does have layers capability and edging tools which I think could be used to trace borders around major color areas. Then it would just be dividing the areas that are still too big, and adding the white pixel to each. I offer this option to you people to play with because its heading in the wrong direction for me at the moment.

[ February 01, 2004, 23:41: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

diamondspider

February 2nd, 2004, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Just add to the discussion..
Here are some examples of the 3 map-making scripts in GIMP
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp1.jpg
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp2.jpg
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp3.jpg

GIMP is a powerful free paint program used by many programmers (including the developers of Dom2). These scripts generate random maps. Changing the settings is easy. Changing the color pattern is possible but it involves playing with the palette. Creating a gradient palette which it does make fairly easy after you play with it abit. I could switch to automatically creating these instead of the DomMap stuff except these dont fill my needs. Im not patient enough to add the rest.

GIMP does have layers capability and edging tools which I think could be used to trace borders around major color areas. Then it would just be dividing the areas that are still too big, and adding the white pixel to each. I offer this option to you people to play with because its heading in the wrong direction for me at the moment. Wow, that is really impressive. Particularly the first two.

Certainly a lot easier than hand drawing all of that coastline! (I've done it so I know!).

Anyway, yes, I have GIMP and might just try that stuff out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks Gandalf!

Targa

February 2nd, 2004, 02:35 AM

Wow, very interesting fractal on this one:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp2.jpg

I love the way it came out looking like a topo map. With enough experimentation....who knows how good they might be "right out of the box", so-to-speak.

Gandalf Parker

February 2nd, 2004, 04:44 AM

OK I played with that generator abit. Made a new Version of its palette adding some mountain colors on the end. Played with the numbers. Anyway it didnt take long to get this...
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp4.jpg

PhilD

February 2nd, 2004, 08:29 AM

diamondspider

February 2nd, 2004, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
OK I played with that generator abit. Made a new Version of its palette adding some mountain colors on the end. Played with the numbers. Anyway it didnt take long to get this...
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/projects/gimp4.jpg That is a pretty nice base. In my own mind, it completes about 15% of the work though.

Very nice start, but the inner terrain is always time consuming if you want a "professional" look.

STILL, the coastline is always a real boring pain to do and isn't nearly as fun as the terrain, so it is a GREAT thing to automate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Whatever Targa did to get him map looking like that will probably be needed in any case. I like his idea of having a tutorial on how he did it.

Maybe he has ideas on how to tweak the automated process to cut out a step or two?

[ February 02, 2004, 14:45: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

Targa

February 2nd, 2004, 05:40 PM

Maybe he has ideas on how to tweak the automated process to cut out a step or two Not really. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The only thing that I can think of that would be of any use to the Dom community as of this moment would be for someone to figure out how to compile Phil's DomMap2 to run in an MS Windows environment.

Whatever Targa did to get him map looking like that will probably be needed in any case. I like his idea of having a tutorial on how he did it.Well, that's kinda like comparing apples and oranges. Unless someone were to code a very complex and powerful program, you'll never get maps that look like Aran from an automatic map generator. So as for "whatever I did to get my map looking like that", it's alot of tedious work by hand, and only "needed" if you want the map to look similar to the maps that came with the game. Phil and Gandalf's priorities are geared more toward Dommap and auto-generation, which doesn't lend itself to the "hand-drawn" look. Gandalf has mentioned (IIRC) that he's been generating random maps in the hopes that people will use them as a base for their own customization/artwork.

Gandalf and I have discussed the possibility of me supplying him with some command-line switches for DomMap2, and he running off a batch of random maps, but we need to coordinate "machine time", since he has other things going on. I sorta left that conversation in limbo...I guess I could get back to it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

As for a tutorial, I'm not sure how many Photoshop Users there are here, and if there are, how many would be willing to go through the time-consuming process of mapmaking. If there's enough of a demand for it, I'll write one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Gandalf Parker

February 2nd, 2004, 08:35 PM

OK its not an auto-run yet but check out the 02Feb files here
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/junk/

I have the script making those referr to them as "blanks". There is actually a .tga and a .map file for each with all the #terrain and #neighbor commands. There are still some randoms being done such as how many provinces and how much water but those could be locked down to absolute numbers if you wanted. Is this what you guys had in mind?

[ February 02, 2004, 18:36: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Targa

February 2nd, 2004, 09:21 PM

Alot of those look really good as templates! It looks like you may need to tweak the 'shore cost', as a few of them have land province borders bleeding into the sea. Also (using the first pic as an example), I'd experiment with ruggedness between 1.4 - 1.7 or so...enough to eliminate the hundreds of tiny islands, as it would be very difficult to work with otherwise. But yeah....those are looking really good!

That's basically what I've been doing with DomMap. Running off a bunch of pics similar to those until I see a shape I like. Of course, yours are so much better to work with, since they can be way larger than 800x599, and have the corresponding .map files that work with Dom2. I haven't been playing with province numbers, since I've been doing the borders by hand. I've found that no matter what setting I used, DomMap would always end up giving me some province shapes I disliked. Although now that I think about it, since the capitals are what counts, the borders can be made "flexible".

Once I get a map I like the looks of, I copy the seed from the map file, paste it into a batch file, and adjust the other parameters to tweak it.
Here's my "base" switches:
-d 0 -pl 15 -nl 260 -tc 900 -sa 2 -ns 25 -ss 55 -wl 30 -ls 25 -r 1.7

Those get varied a bunch when I get a shape I like though.

The only thing that I see that would need to be modified (other than sprucing up the map with graphics) is that the map file generated by DomMap2 also has terrain info, doesn't it? For example, the pics at the bottom of that page, with the different colors on the land, are showing plains, mountains, etc... If you start with a "basic blank" (all brown) like the top ones, you'd have to add terrain info thru Dom2 map editor (not that that's a big deal).

[ February 02, 2004, 19:26: Message edited by: Targa ]

PhilD

February 2nd, 2004, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by Targa:

Once I get a map I like the looks of, I copy the seed from the map file, paste it into a batch file, and adjust the other parameters to tweak it.
Here's my "base" switches:
-d 0 -pl 15 -nl 260 -tc 900 -sa 2 -ns 25 -ss 55 -wl 30 -ls 25 -r 1.7
OK, since I cannot help you get the "new and somewhat improved" dommap to run on your machine, I ran it with your switches for 3 1600x1200 maps; the results are here (http://duchon.philippe.free.fr/dom2/Targa/) .

If you want more, you can email me at (duchon) dot (philippe) at (free) dot (fr)

Gandalf Parker

February 2nd, 2004, 10:34 PM

Targa,
The ones I run come from a basic program that runs ALL the parameters as randoms. If there are one or two on my list that seem "perfect" I can quote the variables that were used.

Do you want a nightly run to put a dozen or so into your directory on my machine?

Targa

February 2nd, 2004, 10:44 PM

Phil: Awesome! I saved map #3, which I really like the looks of. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Your mod of DomMap must have changed something other than map size and .map files, because when I use the same seed with DomMap 1 it gives me a totally different picture.

Gandalf: As I mention above, the 2 progs generate diff maps even w/same seed, so giving me the variables wouldn't allow me to generate anything similar-looking. If you could do a nightly run, I can download any I like, which would be awesome. Could you set it up so it uses the same file names every day, overwriting yesterdays files? That way I won't have to delete any, and your hard drive won't fill up.

Gandalf Parker

February 2nd, 2004, 11:01 PM

Targa,
Would you rather have the multi-colored ones like PhilD did? The advantage would be that the .map would have different terrains matching what the tga did. Or is it easier to all one color (which color?)

Targa

February 2nd, 2004, 11:29 PM

Easier to have it all one color, brown is fine. I'll have to edit the terrain data anyway, otherwise I'd be limited in where I could place mountains, forests, etc.

Gandalf Parker

February 3rd, 2004, 12:22 AM

Just to tease you all.. (or maybe Kris will see it)
http://terraform.sourceforge.net/tf_screens.html
Unfortunately I dont run GUI stuff on my linux

PhilD

February 3rd, 2004, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Phil: Awesome! I saved map #3, which I really like the looks of. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Your mod of DomMap must have changed something other than map size and .map files, because when I use the same seed with DomMap 1 it gives me a totally different picture.
Actually, since dom2 reads the map bottom to top while dom1 does the reverse (for province numbers), one thing I did was reverse the output map.

Now, if the output of both dommap Versions don't look like mirror images of each other, then it's probably an effect of different random generators. I didn't change much in the map generator itself, only the .map output (and the maximum terrain size, but that was nothing)

Targa

February 3rd, 2004, 01:12 AM

Here's the latest update on the map-making project for those of you who are following this (yes, that includes you lurkers...I know you're out there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). I know it doesn't look like I've gotten very far, but it's painstaking work, and I'm a perfectionist (1600x1200 map and I push pixels...heh). Currently about 56 layers:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

I've added "Giant Forest" with a stonehenge-type thingy in the upper-left. Not sure if I'm going to keep the winter forest up there or not. More mountains, province borders, shading, some green hills in the middle, "Crescent Woods" on the mid-right, a bunch of shading, etc.

Phil: Nope, they were totally different, so I guess something's changed in the generator.

Gandalf: Sweet! Did you check out the gallery? There's some potential in that prog.

Gandalf Parker

February 3rd, 2004, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Gandalf: Sweet! Did you check out the gallery? There's some potential in that prog. One thing I liked is that you could make a map like we are using, save it, and then let it do its fancy realistic 3D view to it for making a fancy web-post. But unless I want to put up another linux box I wont be able to use it.

[ February 02, 2004, 23:40: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Mokurai

February 3rd, 2004, 07:29 AM

Just want to publicly encourage Targa on his map efforts. I'd really like to get my hands on a layered PSD with your icons. . . I've made a few maps but have given up because I can't get them looking right. Your file would be a big help.

Gandalf Parker

February 3rd, 2004, 04:59 PM

I located some images for variations in trees. Making a "Stamp" or "brush" out of these should help some people.
http://tubes.ominix.com/art/foliage/index.html
The same site did have some nice waterfall stuff for a unique site.
Still looking for somewhere with lots of images of small well-drawn mountains or river.

[ February 03, 2004, 15:00: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Targa

February 3rd, 2004, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I located some images for variations in trees. Making a "Stamp" or "brush" out of these should help some people.
http://tubes.ominix.com/art/foliage/index.html
The same site did have some nice waterfall stuff for a unique site.
Still looking for somewhere with lots of images of small well-drawn mountains or river. Nice site! I like this image for a new pretender:
http://tubes.ominix.com/art/characters/dragons/dragon-skeleton-01.png

I saved at least a dozen of those tree and plant pictures. I'll be adding some to my "mapstuff" file for sure. Thanks for finding that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mokurai: I'm working on making a complete "mapstuff" file (though no doubt it will continue to grow ever larger). I'm also working on a mapmaking tutorial for photoshop. In the mean time, I'm sending you the mapstuff I already have that's ready for public consumption. And I very much appreciate the encouragement! As GP is fond of saying, "People don't know how to pay for free stuff anymore." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Excellent example of how that's done.

diamondspider

February 3rd, 2004, 10:50 PM

I'll be busy for a few days here but have not lost my interest in map making!

I'll also reiterate my support and request for Targa's great looking map!

Vger

February 3rd, 2004, 11:27 PM

Hi,

I just wanted to add my support for Targa's and Gandalf's efforts. I'm really blown away by what Terraform can do. Is there any way to create a map file from the end result without doing it by hand? Those are lovely graphics that would really look sharp while playing.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

Gandalf Parker

February 4th, 2004, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Vger:
I just wanted to add my support for Targa's and Gandalf's efforts. I'm really blown away by what Terraform can do. Is there any way to create a map file from the end result without doing it by hand? Those are lovely graphics that would really look sharp while playing.
Is there anything we can rip out to a template file so we can use them to cut-n-paste on home made maps?

The terminology in this game is confusing. What did you want to do to a terragen map? Add provinces and capitals? Create the .map file with the correct terrain and neighbor commands? I kindof wish the .map files had an extension of .mmp or something we would know what we mean when we say map

[ February 03, 2004, 22:38: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Targa

February 4th, 2004, 03:09 AM

I was able to put in a bit more work on the map today, and updated the webmap:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

Bottom half looks like it's getting there, although I keep finding myself making changes and tweaks. Re-painted all the mountains today due to the fact that I saw a picture of something Kristoffer drew and it made mine look like crap. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Added, erased, etc... (not gonna get into a long description this time. I'll let the pic speak for itself). Not really happy with the results I'm getting, but at least it will be playable. To top it off, my pen tablet is being fickle the Last couple of days.

Originally posted by Vger:
I just wanted to add my support for Targa's and Gandalf's efforts. Much appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Psitticine

February 4th, 2004, 04:54 AM

I played with using one of Gandalf's GIMP-script maps in 3D max. I used it as a displacement map to "bump up" a plane for some topography. It worked fairly well, especially after I put some height-controlled textures on it to make the lowest parts water and snow-cap the highest, but the way I converted it to what I needed left too many artifacts.

Gandalf, can you generate one that uses just grayscale to represent height data? I was curious what might come out of it if I took something like that and made a real effort with it in Max instead of just goofing around for 10 minutes.

Having a nice 3D fly-over would be a great way to show off a map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ February 04, 2004, 02:55: Message edited by: Psitticine ]

Gandalf Parker

February 4th, 2004, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
Gandalf, can you generate one that uses just grayscale to represent height data? I was curious what might come out of it if I took something like that and made a real effort with it in Max instead of just goofing around for 10 minutes. Not sure I follow. You mean doing a GIMP render with just a gray palette? I could try that.

Psitticine

February 4th, 2004, 05:06 AM

Pretty much. I'd have to play with it and see if any other special settings would be useful. The more of a spread in the colors, the better. Pure white and pure black and all shades in between. That gives a much more gradiated landscape.

I did something like this once for a project and it came out rather well. What I need to do here is alter things so that the texture is mapped in more than one (blended) layer. That shouldn't be any kind of big deal though, even if I just end up nesting textures.

Once I get it right, though, it won't take any more than popping a new map in place to "raise" a new 3D image.

I'm not sure it'll be of fantastic value to anyone, but it'll be fun to play with and I'll be happy to share the results. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Just thinking out loud here . . . I may eventually experiment with something that'd spawn trees as part of a particle system at designated areas on the map. That might require a seperate map being painted but that, again, shouldn't take much. Just slap a new layer on over the altitude map and paint in pure white where you want forest. Replace the underlayer with black then set up the script to spawn according to that. Hmm . . .

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 01:19 AM

Quick update to the map:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

Currently at 88 layers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I've already had several Messages to the effect, "Not enough system resources, close any open programs and retry" when attempting to multitask with Photoshop having the map loaded.

I'm hoping to have it finished in about a week, but don't hold me to that. I think the next one will be a nice small 2-4 player map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gandalf Parker

February 5th, 2004, 01:33 AM

Seeing some interesting things there. That line of cliffs in the upper right will be uncrossable? Nice.

You might have to do a few merges in order to free up some ram. I thought my machine was more than enough for anything until I started playing with GIMP

Argitoth

February 5th, 2004, 01:43 AM

Targa, if it's going to be a wraparound map, you will need to change some of the map to make it look normal as a wraparaound.

Also, if it's not going to be wraparound, you can't have that big lake just cut off like that, although it doesn't really matter. just making suggestions for improvement.

Edit: or is it an ocean?

[ February 04, 2004, 23:50: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Quick update to the map:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg This map is gorgeous! I can hardly wait to see the end result ...

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Seeing some interesting things there. That line of cliffs in the upper right will be uncrossable? Nice.

You might have to do a few merges in order to free up some ram. I thought my machine was more than enough for anything until I started playing with GIMP Yeah, I spoke with Kristoffer about the possibility of making some cliffs/rifts/and plateau's and he helped me out a bit. Hopefully there'll be more in the next map. You're right about merging layers, which I dislike doing because it limits the tweaking...that said, I should merge a bunch that I think are done, then save the file under a different name so I have the original just in case. Thanks.

Originally posted by Argitoth:
Targa, if it's going to be a wraparound map, you will need to change some of the map to make it look normal as a wraparaound.

Also, if it's not going to be wraparound, you can't have that big lake just cut off like that, although it doesn't really matter. just making suggestions for improvement.

Edit: or is it an ocean?
It's an ocean/sea. As for wrap/non-wrap, the graphics near the edges are on separate layers, so they're easily hidden/removed in order to modify it to be a wraparound. First Version will be non-wrap though. The wrap Version will only wrap horizontally, so the water at the bottom won't matter.

Arryn: Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm not fishing for compliments, but as everyone knows, positive feedback is the fuel that keeps the fire burning for those who are working on mods, maps, guides, etc... I imagine that if no one showed any interest, this project would die off rather quickly.

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Seeing some interesting things there. That line of cliffs in the upper right will be uncrossable?Actually, all of the mountain ranges will be uncrossable (the very long vertical one in the middle has a gap in the center). This is to create choke points and limit access. Do you think this would be a mistake?

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Arryn: Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm not fishing for compliments, but as everyone knows, positive feedback is the fuel that keeps the fire burning for those who are working on mods, maps, guides, etc... I imagine that if no one showed any interest, this project would die off rather quickly.A bit of appreciation can't hurt, and can go a long ways towards making tedious tasks more bearable.

I prefer large, wrap-around maps like Orania. But a large non-wrap map would be just fine provided it is suitably interesting. No offense intended towards Tiltowait, but I prefer maps of the style that IW (and now you too) make. However pretty, or unusual, those 3rd-party maps on the IW site may be, they strike me as too amateurish (excepting the world map, of course), not to mention hard on the eyes. BTW, horizontal wrap is fine. We can assume there are 'poles', if we need a justification.

One comment that I have is that it seems you are creating large-sized provinces, as compared to a map like Orania. Do you have a ballpark estimate for the total number of land and sea provinces this map will have?

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 02:52 AM

Also, what's everyone's opinion about the spread and combination of mountain/forest/fertile plains/wasteland? Am I not putting in enough "money spots"? I keep finding myself not being happy with the "barren" provinces, and wanting to stick something in them. I'm concerned about the distribution of fertile lands....too much, not enough, wrong places? I can't tell you how many times I've loaded Aran.tga for a comparison. Believe it or not, I have even measured how many pixels wide and high each province is in comparison to those on Aran.

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 03:01 AM

It appears that you have more barren coastal area than a map like Orania. Most of Orania's coastal provinces have some sort of green (farmland, woods, river mouth). Also, the map appears to lack any frozen land.

February 5th, 2004, 03:01 AM

I am in favor of chokepoints. I'd say the distribution should be 1 Fertile Province for every 5 provinces or so.

Also since this is a large map and more than likely going to be used for 17 Nations. You can divide everything by 17 to find a balance of barren, forest, mountain, river, and farmland provinces. I did notice the prevelence of barren land, but maybe it's just because there is not alot of green. Perhaps you could make or IW has a 'waving wheat field' icon you could put in a few provinces.

And yes, it looks terrific. Maybe you could even place a tower icon on the edge of a chokepoint so it's more visual.

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:

One comment that I have is that it seems you are creating large-sized provinces, as compared to a map like Orania. Do you have a ballpark estimate for the total number of land and sea provinces this map will have? Well, to be honest I haven't really looked at Orania until just now. That map is quite a bit larger (2400x1800) while mine is 1600x1200. The smallest province on there is 68x86, and the largest is 324x172. Mine has (so far) 64x71 and 206x102. As you can see, I'm pretty close on the small, and smaller on the large. The larger map (Orania) makes the provinces appear smaller. As of now my map has about 100 outlined provinces, and roughly 1/3 of the map yet to do....so 130-140 would be a guess for land. Not sure about water. I've been told to keep the water province number fairly low (if you look at Orania and Aran, the water provinces are very large compared to the land provinces).

OTOH, I am keeping the "province borders" layer separate, so they are very flexible. Multiple Versions is not out of the question.

EDIT
Orignially posted by Zen:
I did notice the prevelence of barren land, but maybe it's just because there is not alot of green.Yes and no. It looks more barren because of the way it's drawn, but yes, it still lacks enough fertile land. Aran only has about 14 fertile provinces, and quite a bit of empty ones. Orania seems to have a bunch more fertile around the edges, but many barren ones in the middle. I'll do the math as you suggest...that'll make it alot easier to determine if I have enough or not.

Originally posted by Arryn (above):
how many players (average) do you estimate your map will accommodate?That's a question you'll have to ask someone with more experience than I have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 05, 2004, 01:34: Message edited by: Targa ]

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
That map is quite a bit larger (2400x1800) while mine is 1600x1200.

The larger map (Orania) makes the provinces appear smaller. As of now my map has about 100 outlined provinces, and roughly 1/3 of the map yet to do....so 130-140 would be a guess for land.Good point about Orania being a much larger map overall. Being a relative noob at Dom, how many players (average) do you estimate your map will accommodate?

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 03:47 AM

See my post below for some answers, I edited it. Something else I wanted to mention though. One of the difficulties I've been having is placement of fertile lands. Using Orania as an example, the majority is by the water's edge and along the rivers, while inland is barren. While this looks realistic, it creates a problem for anyone unlucky enough to start the game somewhere in the middle, and those people starting by the water have a cash advantage right off the bat. So would you say that it's better to go with an "evenly distributed" look? Should I make all the fertile lands #nostart, as well as all the provinces bordering the edges of the map?

February 5th, 2004, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
See my post below for some answers, I edited it. Something else I wanted to mention though. One of the difficulties I've been having is placement of fertile lands. Using Orania as an example, the majority is by the water's edge and along the rivers, while inland is barren. While this looks realistic, it creates a problem for anyone unlucky enough to start the game somewhere in the middle, and those people starting by the water have a cash advantage right off the bat.That is in part of the game, position plays alot of how the game is played by any particular nation. You have enough rivers that you can place a fertile province pretty much where you'd like. If you happen to get an area that seems lacking in both mountain, forest and riverland areas, make it a high chokepoint area so there is some benefit for it. (You could also place already visible sites in these provinces to try to make up for the discrepency)

So would you say that it's better to go with an "evenly distributed" look? Should I make all the fertile lands #nostart, as well as all the provinces bordering the edges of the map? You should place all the borders as #nostart, with the exception of the water provinces near the edge (this will allow water nations have some space to not get invaded instantly by a land province to their capital).

I would prefer the semi-realistic look while being balanced as far as if an area doesn't have fertile provinces they have something else that could make up for it.

[ February 05, 2004, 01:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

Gandalf Parker

February 5th, 2004, 04:00 AM

There is no real good "average number of players". It would be simpler to talk in provinces per player. Its a lesson I learned in trying to get feedback from players about what maps sizes they wanted.

If a map will support every nation gaining only 5 provinces before having no choice but to go to war, then you are looking at 75 land and 10 water provinces. See where this is going? Saying a map will support 6 players doesnt mean much unless you add whether this means you idea of support is 5, 10, 25 provinces each before forcing a war.

As to terrains, Im kindof bugged if the terrain is grouped so "logically" that that there are large rambling areas of forest, desert, swamp, mountain. OK visually that makes sense but it creates maps where one persons start is surrounded by desert provinces and another surrounded by farmland. I would rather see smaller scatterings so that everyone is next to a few different types of terrain.

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 04:13 AM

As to Zen's "waving wheat field" to make up for the barren look, does this look any better, or is it too "busy" now?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat.jpg

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
As to Zen's "waving wheat field" to make up for the barren look, does this look any better, or is it too "busy" now?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat.jpg It would look better if the "wheat" icon placements conformed to the darker shadings within those provinces. Alternatively, if you shaded the area beneath the wheat in the same color/tone as the wheat and then smoothed/blended that into the rest of the province's barren tone. A lot more work, of course.

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 04:36 AM

Like so?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat2.jpg

February 5th, 2004, 04:38 AM

Maybe you can bunch them together a little more and add a green background to take a look at it? Or at least some portions. I don't know whether or not it would work but it's at least a thought.

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Like so?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat2.jpg Better. But can you extend the area of shading beneath the wheat so that the "pockets" of them merge together?

With regards to Zen's suggestion, it might look better if you shrank the size of the wheat icons and, as Zen said, bunch more of them together. I think my biggest gripe is that the wheat icons are slightly largish.

[ February 05, 2004, 02:45: Message edited by: Arryn ]

February 5th, 2004, 04:49 AM

Also Targa, if it's too much work don't worry about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It was just an idea to create the image of 'fertility'.

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 04:56 AM

Just out of curiosity, does this "texturized" Version appeal to anyone? Or would you rather have the original "flat cloth" look?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat3.jpg

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
Also Targa, if it's too much work don't worry about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Ignore Zen. Work, darn you, work! (sound of cracking whip) Slacker! What's taking you so long? People working for free just isn't what it used to be ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Gandalf Parker

February 5th, 2004, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Just out of curiosity, does this "texturized" Version appeal to anyone? Or would you rather have the original "flat cloth" look?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat3.jpg I like that. Looks good. Not bare dirt but subtle plant work. Keep in mind that the castle, temples, flags will all appear on top of these. What you are working on is beautiful but while the game is in play they are basically background.

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 05:03 AM

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 05:27 AM

Well, in closing for the night I'll just let you be the judge. Here's a comparison shot of a section of my map, and a section or Orania (barren areas):
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/compare.html

I don't think I'm going to get carried away trying to spruce it up. One of the difficulties I find myself facing is that I don't want to leave any provinces with nothing in them other than a slight bit of shading, but I have to keep telling myself that I can't fill every province with eye candy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Arryn

February 5th, 2004, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Here's a comparison shot of a section of my map, and a section or Orania (barren areas)Yours is easier on the eyes, and prettier. G'night. Sweet dreams ...

diamondspider

February 5th, 2004, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Targa:
Well, in closing for the night I'll just let you be the judge. Here's a comparison shot of a section of my map, and a section or Orania (barren areas):
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/compare.html

I don't think I'm going to get carried away trying to spruce it up. One of the difficulties I find myself facing is that I don't want to leave any provinces with nothing in them other than a slight bit of shading, but I have to keep telling myself that I can't fill every province with eye candy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I don't mind some plain looking areas. Looks cleaner to me.

Gandalf Parker

February 5th, 2004, 04:11 PM

Can we see the comparison as it would look in the game? With flag, castle, temple, army square, neighboring grey flags.

Its up to you. If you want it playable, or prettier on the download screen. As a proud artist maybe a prettier more artistic map is a better choice.

[ February 05, 2004, 14:12: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Can we see the comparison as it would look in the game? With flag, castle, temple, army square, neighboring grey flags. That would require saving a copy to tga format, addidng capital white dots, creating a map file, then loading it up and taking a screenshot...so don't hold your breath. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gandalf Parker

February 5th, 2004, 05:14 PM

Or I could do a screen capture from a game and paste transparent on your image.

Latest Version of my Dom2 Daily Random Maps
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/RandomMaps/thumbnails.html
This one can be done with MUCH less drain on the system. The dail files such as 04Feb19.tga and 04Feb19.map will be put into TodayMap19.zip which means I dont have to regenerate all the web pages each day. Just the views. I might later be able to get it back to the thumbnail view going to a full screen (jpg) view with a link going to the download zip.

[ February 05, 2004, 16:17: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 06:22 PM

OK, I've had several cups of coffee now and can think semi-straight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif What, exactly, are you asking? If I interpret this correctly....I'd say the following:

If for whatever reason my map ends up looking shabby in-game (poor contrast, too bright/dark, artistic style mismatch, etc..) then there's not much I can do about it. I'll finish the map and let the players decide. I'm not going to scrap 100+ hours of work at this point and start over.

Its up to you. If you want it playable, or prettier on the download screen. Can't it be both?

Gandalf Parker

February 5th, 2004, 06:55 PM

Didnt mean to turn you off. I think your map is great and you should definetly continue.

I also think some players would rather have dull fast-loading maps since its basicaly background and some dont look at that just as some people turn off the music and all the animations. Dull fast maps are easy to do so I dont think you should be swayed that direction. Others can take care of that (like me). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 07:41 PM

No problem, I wasn't turned off. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The problem with internet communication is that you can't see and interpret body language, tone, attitude, etc... Makes for easy misunderstandings. I know you well enough to know there was no ill intent behind that.

On another note, does anyone know how Dom2 calculates province richness? I see in the map editor and docs that you can assign multiple values to a single province. ie:

Province A is assigned "farm"
Province B is assigned "farm" and "rivers"
Province C is assigned "farm" and "forest"
Province D is assigned "farm" and "mountains" etc...

How do these affect cash production of the provinces? Does "A" produce more money than the rest? What does designating it as "rivers" do? I know that the terrain types will affect movement rates and the chance of finding a magic site, but unsure of how it affects money (other than that the designation of "small" vs. "large" will have an effect). If I have a province that looks like this:

http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/province.jpg

It's meant to be a farm province with mountains around it to limit access (the mountains are impassable). Will making it farm + mountains reduce income?

Targa

February 5th, 2004, 11:11 PM

Today's sneak preview:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

February 5th, 2004, 11:19 PM

Now that I like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I was hunting around for a graphic where I wanted to give you an idea, and I think I found one. I'll send it to you shortly. It was on the "Waving grain" thing.

Edit; You might want to taper off the rivers on the southwestern edge. They are kind of blunt and doesn't look like they just 'fade' into the woods.

Just a suggestion.

[ February 05, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: Zen ]

Gandalf Parker

February 5th, 2004, 11:40 PM

Wow rivers run deep. Decided to go with water-nation access? The Whirlpool is interesting. What did you have in mind there? Uncrossable chokepoint?

[ February 05, 2004, 21:40: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

diamondspider

February 5th, 2004, 11:40 PM

Originally posted by Targa:
Today's sneak preview:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg Very sweet 3D effect on the water!

Best map ever http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Kristoffer O

February 5th, 2004, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Targa:

On another note, does anyone know how Dom2 calculates province richness? I see in the map editor and docs that you can assign multiple values to a single province. ie:

Province A is assigned "farm"
Province B is assigned "farm" and "rivers"
Province C is assigned "farm" and "forest"
Province D is assigned "farm" and "mountains" etc...

How do these affect cash production of the provinces? Does "A" produce more money than the rest? What does designating it as "rivers" do? I know that the terrain types will affect movement rates and the chance of finding a magic site, but unsure of how it affects money (other than that the designation of "small" vs. "large" will have an effect). If I have a province that looks like this:

http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/province.jpg

It's meant to be a farm province with mountains around it to limit access (the mountains are impassable). Will making it farm + mountains reduce income? Farms have higher populations. Most other terrains lower pops. Pop gives income. Large have higher pops. Small lower pops. Rivers have higher income , but can be flooded. Farms have lower res. Mountains and forests higher res.

Farm+mountains=not very high pop. Quite high res. Do not remember specifics. It is a random value based upon terrains and size IIRC.

Targa

February 6th, 2004, 12:17 AM

If I had to guess, looks like ~140 land provinces (for anyone interested). Also, if you look on the far-right-top edge, that's a pic of the real stonehenge. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Zen: Yeah, saw that (river). Actually, the map doesn't look like this at all. I saved it, then added the 3-D effect and anti-aliasing and made a copy for the web site. I can't do 3-D until Last, but I wanted to post an attention-getter since that may be the Last update before it's finished. Will tweak that bot-left river.

Water nation access: Should I put that to a vote? Connect sea provinces to the inland lakes (via swimming upriver)? Opinions welcome. Dunno what's up with the whirlpool, it just appeared by itself... hehe, J/K. I think the water looks too boring so I pasted that in there while experimenting. I need to add wave/whitecap grafix somehow.

Kris and DS: Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Edit:
I have yet to play R'lyeh or Atlantis, so I'm definitely gonna need feedback on that question.

[ February 05, 2004, 22:28: Message edited by: Targa ]

Arryn

February 6th, 2004, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Water nation access: Should I put that to a vote? Connect sea provinces to the inland lakes (via swimming upriver)?Yes. And yes!

February 6th, 2004, 12:32 AM

Everything that connects within one river. Should work. But you should also note that it does cause Atlantis and R'lyeh to have a more defined advantage the more provinces they have access to from one point. In order to limit that a little you might want to change the size of the river province so they take up a little more space along the river.

Gandalf Parker

February 6th, 2004, 12:38 AM

You cant really make a province both water and land. Either it will be water access or it will be land access. The only way to do it AFAIK would be to do a #neighbor link from the sea to the lake. It would be an instantaneus trip.

I always thought the water nations were pretty powerful already.

Arryn

February 6th, 2004, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I always thought the water nations were pretty powerful already. I don't know about Atlantis, but I must admit R'lyeh can be pretty powerful, in spite of illithid's drawbacks as discussed in other threads.

Targa

February 6th, 2004, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
You cant really make a province both water and land. Either it will be water access or it will be land access. The only way to do it AFAIK would be to do a #neighbor link from the sea to the lake. It would be an instantaneus trip.

I always thought the water nations were pretty powerful already. That's what I had in mind. I made a quick drawing here:

http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap2.jpg

That shows approximately what I'm thinking (if I were to do it), regarding how the #neighbors would be. The other option, of course, is to just let R'lyeh/Atlantis start somewhere in the sea and have to hike overland to gain access to the lakes.

Saber Cherry

February 6th, 2004, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Today's sneak preview:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg The 3D effect is nice. But, I have two suggestions...

1) Reduce the intensity. Looks like the lakes all have 20-meter cliffs...

2) What would it look like if you removed (or blurred) the cloth-effect from the water? Hmm, maybe I'll try it and tell you=)

...like this:

http://www.geocities.com/saber_marionette_cherry/webmap2.jpg

(The lake near the skull)

Note that you cannot click on the link, you have to right-click and download to view it, for some reason.

[ February 05, 2004, 23:41: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Targa

February 6th, 2004, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
The 3D effect is nice. But, I have two suggestions...

1) Reduce the intensity. Looks like the lakes all have 20-meter cliffs...Yeah, I know. Didn't spend any time playing around with it. Pic below is probably more like the end result will be. Thanks.

2) What would it look like if you removed (or blurred) the cloth-effect from the water? Hmm, maybe I'll try it and tell you=)Well, I could get rid of the cloth texture and just replace it with water, like this:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/watermap.jpg

Not sure if that's what ppl would want tho, since I'm sorta following the originals as a guide. Then ppl will complain that the land looks like cloth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Arryn

February 6th, 2004, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Well, I could get rid of the cloth texture and just replace it with water, like this:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/watermap.jpg

Not sure if that's what ppl would want tho, since I'm sorta following the originals as a guide. Then ppl will complain that the land looks like cloth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Speaking for myself, I think this is the best-looking example you've shown thus far.

Gandalf Parker

February 6th, 2004, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
[QUOTE]Well, I could get rid of the cloth texture and just replace it with water, like this:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/watermap.jpg

Not sure if that's what ppl would want tho, since I'm sorta following the originals as a guide. Then ppl will complain that the land looks like cloth. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I like it. I think water is supposed to look smooth and ground shouldnt.

Saber Cherry

February 6th, 2004, 03:54 AM

I think it looks good like that, too. What tools / filters did you use to get that effect?

Targa

February 6th, 2004, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
I think it looks good like that, too. What tools / filters did you use to get that effect? I must be hallucinating...there was a post by GP answering that a little while ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Anyways, this map project is officially dead unless I can figure out why Dom2 dislikes it. Ran -dd switch, and got about 500 lines that all kept saying the same thing:
LoadBigMap targa.tga ()
loading map ./maps/targa.tga
tga2rgba32 alphamode 0 tgatype 3202 tgaadr130613288 dstadr138346536 tgalen7680539
w1600 h1200
FindCapitals
155 capitals found
FindNbors (hl155)
gooddist=180341.000000
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 1 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 1 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 1 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
prov 2 and 0 are nbors (not unanimous)
....

Kept going until I had to force Windows to shut the game down. I checked the map about 5 times, and the only pure white are the 1-pixel capital dots. Saved in uncompressed tga. Tried both 24 and 32 bit.

February 6th, 2004, 05:34 AM

Maybe the game doesn't like your borders. Without a clear defining line it doesn't think the provinces are seperate?

Targa

February 6th, 2004, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
Maybe the game doesn't like your borders. Without a clear defining line it doesn't think the provinces are seperate? Thought about that, but if you look at Aran and Orania, the water province borders aren't even solid and completely enclosing the provinces. I thought (and this is what I've read here in the forums), province borders are merely for human convenience, and all the game looks for are the white dots. I can't even explain why it appears to be trying to find neighbors, since you're supposed to set that manually. "Guess neighbors" doesn't come into play until you select it in the map editor.

EDIT: Saber Cherry's all unit view uses a totally black map with 2 white dots, now that I think about it, so it's not borders.

[ February 06, 2004, 03:46: Message edited by: Targa ]

Saber Cherry

February 6th, 2004, 06:12 AM

Yeah, the game only cares about white dots, and does not understand anything else. Are you trying to load the map with a .map file, or trying to run a map editor?

BTW, the first province should be 1, not 0... can you post your .map file contents?

Targa

February 6th, 2004, 06:34 AM

There isn't any .map file. I'm just trying to load the .tga into Dom's map editor.

It appears that there's a map editor bug related to the placement of the white dots. I moved a few around and came up with a different error.

Edit: As you can see below from my printout, it finds the 155 capitals w/o a problem. Then it gets caught in an infinite loop while trying to figure out who's neighboring who. So the 155 white dots are there, and being seen. I pasted sections of my map to a new file, and they can be loaded. But not very many. If I had to guess (and I may be way off base here), I'd almost say that there has to be a certain number of pixels both horizontally and vertically between white pixels. If they're....say, within 2 rows horizontally or 2 columns vertically, the game locks up.

[ February 06, 2004, 04:47: Message edited by: Targa ]

Gandalf Parker

February 6th, 2004, 04:02 PM

I thought maybe there was a problem with an array size on its comparisons. Maybe moving the dots so that not so many appear on the same vertical or horizontal line clears the problem up. That or maybe it prefers them on the same grid-line. I suppose a test might be possible of both gridded capital dots and completely ungridded ones.

Targa

February 6th, 2004, 04:30 PM

Unwise: That's not it, thanks for the suggestion though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I already tried that, making the map very dark, but it still wouldn't work. That gave me an idea though...which I'm going to test right now. I suspect Gandalf is closer to the truth...brb, will edit with the results. Meanwhile I'm sending the map to JK to look at.

Edit:
OK, I copied the dots to a pure black map and it still locks up, so it's a problem with the placement of the dots. It's not a problem with the edges (like being too close), as I just erased all capitals within about 100 or more pixels of the edges...

Edit+
Alright, it appears to be a coding bug related to where the dots are. Here's what I did: Took the black map with the dots on it and copied only the top half to a new file. That locked up the game. I copied half of the half to a new file, game loaded it fine, so I figure "Aha! The problem is in that other 1/4 of the map...right?" Went back to Photoshop and selected inverse, to copy the opposite half....and Dom loaded it fine! So it took both halves, but not the whole. Looking at the division between the halves reveals that there are not dots even remotely close to the border.

And just to be thorough, I went thru the pic and deleted any capitals that were on the same horizontal or vertical lines, which doesn't help.

On the brighter side: I can now get away from Photoshop and actually play the game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ February 06, 2004, 16:13: Message edited by: Targa ]

Targa

February 7th, 2004, 01:49 AM

Being extremely bummed out that the map editor choked on my map, I decided to throw together a small map so I would feel better.

E-mailed to Illwinter, should be appearing there in a day or two. Here's a picture:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/cot.jpg

Desc:

Clash of the Titans
41 provinces, 5 of which are sea.
2 player only. Fixed starting positions. No water races.

I've temporarily put it up for download here:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/cot.zip

If anyone feels like playing it. Enjoy.

Gandalf Parker

February 7th, 2004, 01:54 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
E-mailed to Illwinter, should be appearing there in a day or two. Here's a picture:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/cot.jpg
Very nice. Thank you. There does seem to be a desire out there for few-player maps.

Do you want to setup something for a nightly randomizing on the .map file such as the Miirunst map has?

Ive got your blanks running on automatic now. Is that of any use? Should the variables be tweaked? I was thinking that making the .sh files into .txt would be you could view them thru the browser. WOuld that help?

Targa

February 7th, 2004, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Do you want to setup something for a nightly randomizing on the .map file such as the Miirunst map has?AFAIK Miirunst is a map you can d/l from Illwinter. I've seen you mention this randomizing in a diff thread, but have no clue what you're talking about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (keep in mind that I've played about a dozen games, all on easy AI and Aran map) Haven't had time for anything else. I don't think I've played once since I started the map.

Ive got your blanks running on automatic now. Is that of any use? Should the variables be tweaked? I was thinking that making the .sh files into .txt would be you could view them thru the browser. Would that help? I can see the .sh files fine. Just had to tell Windows to use Wordpad to open them. I think the way you have it setup is fine the way it is. The only downside is having to load each large pic individually rather than having a thumbnail page, but that's no biggie. Can't do much until JK figures out what's wrong with the map editor. If that turns out to be a huge project for him, then there's no point in starting on other maps.

Although CoT map is working now, the editor choked on it also. I had to remove all the capitals and play around with positioning in order to keep Dom from locking up. Now that I see how time-consuming it is to use the map editor, I'm not even sure I want to do that with large maps. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I may have to pass that burden to a friend of mine.

Unwise

February 7th, 2004, 02:26 AM

I had a similar problem when putzing around with my first map. I solved it thus:

If you're using photoshop, use the color/hue option to slightly darken all the layers except for the one containing your dots (if you don't have a layer just for the dots, make one).

The theory is that there are several white pixels very close to one another that is confusing the routine. By darkening the "eye candy" layers an infintesimal amount, you disqualify these from consideration.

Buzzbomb

February 7th, 2004, 02:33 AM

Nice work Targa, please dont get discouraged, your making beautiful maps. Why dont ya play some and take a break from map making for a few days, play some games to remember what your making them for. Id hate to see you give up.

Gandalf Parker

February 7th, 2004, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Do you want to setup something for a nightly randomizing on the .map file such as the Miirunst map has?AFAIK Miirunst is a map you can d/l from Illwinter. I've seen you mention this randomizing in a diff thread, but have no clue what you're talking about. <hr /></blockquote>In this directory are two that are nightly randomized..
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion/Dominions2/
The Poke_Eye.map uses the eye.tga for a very.. different.. type of game.
The MiirunstX.map uses the Miirsunst.tga for the same type of extreme play. Both are re-rolled every day.

The only downside is having to load each large pic individually rather than having a thumbnail page, but that's no biggie. There is an index image.
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/blanks/00_index.jpg
It just isnt in a nice web-page so you can click on one of the images to get to the file. If you look at the index each morning you should get a quick idea if any of the maps seem worthy of grabbing. Every day a new batch.

Targa

February 7th, 2004, 04:34 AM

Ah, I see. Well, I think that's a bit ahead of my current skill level. If you think people will have a use for it (using the CoT map w/randomized .map file) then feel free to do so. Anything I make and post is Dom community property as far as I'm concerned.

Must have missed seeing that index pic. That's perfect, thanks.

[ February 07, 2004, 02:35: Message edited by: Targa ]

Arralen

February 7th, 2004, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Targa:
Can't do much until JK figures out what's wrong with the map editor. If that turns out to be a huge project for him, then there's no point in starting on other maps.Use the .map file from another map, clear the neighbour commands and other specific stuff. The new map with from your .tga will load up fine in the editor then. Declare neighbours using the editor. Tedious, but should work ok with small maps.

Targa

February 7th, 2004, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Arralen:
Use the .map file from another map...Just thought of this myself. Gonna give it a try now.

CoT is on Illwinter now, so I removed it from GP's machine. Find it here:
http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/maps.html

Edit: Yep, all I had to do was rename aran.map to my map and it loaded up fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 08, 2004, 04:02: Message edited by: Targa ]

Targa

February 8th, 2004, 06:24 AM

Quick update for those following this thread. Map's done. Got it loaded in the editor by using a blank .map file. All neighbors, done. Nostarts, specials, done. All that's left for tomorrow is to set poptypes for various provinces. Not sure how carried away I'll get with that. I'm guessing that unless something unexpected happens, I'll need some beta-tester volunteers by tomorrow night.

Edit: Quick poll:
Again, here's the preview of the map:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

I'm considering adding recruits so land-based players can enter the water. IIRC, Shambler Reef only allows you to recruit grunts, so you'd need a water mage as a commander. This kinda stinks, since they can only take 1 grunt for every level of water magic (ugh, what a waste). Alternatively, ppl can forge magic stuff to enable them to enter the water with their troops.

Or, If I add #poptype 57, you can recruit from that province the amphibious Shambler, Atlantan Spearmen, and a Shambler Chief. So which way to go? Or use both? How many sites? 1 by each large lake too much? Thoughts?

[ February 08, 2004, 04:38: Message edited by: Targa ]

Arryn

February 8th, 2004, 06:26 AM

Yea!!

Gandalf Parker

February 8th, 2004, 03:08 PM

you can set the population of a coastal region to those Icthy guys. They have land/water commander/troops. But somehow the game seems to put them around pretty well so play test might show it not to be a concern.

But again I dont think water needs boosted. Its a tactical decision. If I see that water is very strategic on a map I will often design for it. If not water nations then Vanheim, or Marignon that ship theme, or Jotun with Water Cult.

Targa

February 8th, 2004, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
you can set the population of a coastal region to those Icthy guys. They have land/water commander/troops. "Icthy guys"? Don't see anything in the docs as a poptype that looks like that.

But again I dont think water needs boosted. You mean that I shouldn't be adding a way for land-based troops to recruit amphibious units? Just let the game decide if it wants to put anything in? If I did that, and someone decided to play as or against R'lyeh or Atlantis, land-based armies would have to forge water-breathing items. You think that's enough?

Gandalf Parker

February 8th, 2004, 06:20 PM

How odd. I dont see a number for them either. But they do show up and are an independent race. I would ask Illwinter about that.

As for water-boosting, yes it might take water breathing equip but thats not hard to get in water or air paths. And many natons have ways of entering the water. Water mages, death mages (for undead troops), the water cult theme, the sea-farer nations (marignon, vanheim). There are also quite a few pretender choices that make water an option. If a player feels the water is going to be important then its not hard to build for it without being a water nation.

Targa

February 8th, 2004, 07:16 PM

Yep. I'm getting the gut feeling (early guess) that ppl will vote to let the players deal with it, and not have me add specific recruitment sites. I want to take a sec to thank you (and everyone who has responded) for your constant feedback. Though I may be able to make a map look halfway decent, I'm still limited in my knowledge of gameplay, and I value the opinions of those with more experience.

Edit:
Ugh, looks like I've underestimated castle/temple size and placement. As seen here:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/castle_temple_size.jpg

They've been placed on top of and across the river. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Gah. Once you change the dot placement, Dom2 renumbers all the provinces, since province number is based on location in X/Y axis....which means all the neighbors and stuff will be whacked out. Back to the drawing board. Guess I'll have to calculate pixel dimensions/placement and save it for future map-making reference.

Edit2:
Aha! Thank you Illwinter for making #defaultmapzoom option! Fixed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 08, 2004, 18:44: Message edited by: Targa ]

PhilD

February 10th, 2004, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by Targa:

Edit2:
Aha! Thank you Illwinter for making #defaultmapzoom option! Fixed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Does #defaultmapzoom work now? I tried playing with it a bit before the 2.06 patch, and didn't notice a difference - how does it work?

Targa

February 10th, 2004, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by PhilD:
Does #defaultmapzoom work now? I tried playing with it a bit before the 2.06 patch, and didn't notice a difference - how does it work? Well, logically you might think that #defaultmapzoom means when a player loads the map, it starts at a specific zoom in/out level. Nope. It sets the "relative zoom" of sprites on the map. Saved me alot of work!

Take a look at this sample picture:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/borders.jpg

These are two identical screenshots. As you can see, in the one on the left, the castle/temple combo is slightly larger than the green square. On the right, they're about the size of the smaller blue square. The left one is #defaultmapzoom 1.0, the right, 2.0. The larger the number you use, the "farther away" you appear to be (hence, smaller). So at 2.0 you can have very small provinces and the buildings still fit.

Edit: Just realized that after fixing some minor problems with the .map file I forgot to add that in the release Version! Oops. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 09, 2004, 23:37: Message edited by: Targa ]

Psitticine

February 10th, 2004, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
How odd. I dont see a number for them either. But they do show up and are an independent race. I would ask Illwinter about that.Ichithids . . . Ichitids . . . something like that. My brain isn't recalling the exact name right now.

They definitely exist though. Little blue and pink fellers! There's a few scattered about in the opening picture for the Feb. Computer Games article on the game, actually.

Taqwus

February 10th, 2004, 05:28 PM

Icthyids?

Tiltowait

February 10th, 2004, 10:12 PM

Once you change the dot placement, Dom2 renumbers all the provinces, since province number is based on location in X/Y axis.
It scans from left to right, bottom to top, so if you just move the capital horizontal you have a little wiggle room (and still keep your numbering order)

Too many times I've had to do this myself, its the worst when you make neighboors for 100+ provinces and find one of your capitals is missing.

BTW, really nice maps! I dont have the paitence to place all the little trees and mountains but I wish I did!

Gandalf Parker

August 22nd, 2004, 12:15 PM

I thought Id dig up one of the old Posts on map making to try and spur some new growth there.

You can get "blank" maps that have been randomly generated at either my site www.dom2minions.com (http://www.dom2minions.com) or from Leifs site at http://home.Online.no/~rmoldskr/Dominions/Random_Maps/dominion_maps.html
His are done by the same generator program but a smoothing/blurring routine was added to make them less ugly. That can be done with the ugly maps at my site also (I just havent gotten it automated as part of the generation process) ask about it if you want to do that

Graphics for the maps have been provided by Illwinter but its kindof a bare collection. There are some great sites to get add-ons including David Gervais tiles that he made for some other games but which will help us out (he has given permission for it)
http://pousse.rapiere.free.fr/tome/index.htm