Debate and Duel (D&D)

[Argitoth]

Edit: Changed the thread name. THIS IS NOT just about my disintegration strategy. I want to see some duels taking place here. I'm also always looking for a good duel.

Arrite, this is a debate and duel thread. You say something "arguitive" and then you duel on Dominions 2 to prove your point.

So here I go, explaining what I know so far about my disintegration strategy. The following is what I've learned through experience.

What is easily defeated?
1. Super Combatants
2. Strong units which come in few amounts
3. Independant Provinces
4. Province defence

Weaknesses
1. Archers/Crossbow Infantry
2. Fodder
3. Caelum Flying Units
4. Hawk summons
5. Fires from Afar
6. Magic Resistance
7. Destroying castle walls

Fixes
1. Spread fodder all over the battlefield and cast Raise Skeletons
2. Guard mages with fodder and cast Raise Skeletons
3. No fix yet
4. Fodder
5. Fodder
6. Numerous mages can take anything down. My +3 magic scale helps a lot.
7. Fodder

Weaknesses based on gameplay luck
1. Being attacked before turn 20
2. Upkeep
3. Trying to secure/hold provinces
4. The strategy requires expanding as fast as possible.

Fixes
1. None
2. None
3. Destroy my own provinces with tax while taking the enemies' provinces and doing the same thing. (That leads to major income problems)
4. None


Also what I do to be protected from fodder and arrows, I have lots of shamans casting Body Etheral and Luck on my mages.

[ February 03, 2004, 17:13: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[licker]

It'd help me at least if I had any clue what your disintegration strategy was...

And no, I'm not going to play you Online to find out, I don't have the time (or interest really) for that right now.

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by licker:
It'd help me at least if I had any clue what your disintegration strategy was...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Basically I mass produce Shamans and C'tis mages and reaserch disintegration and raise skeletons. I also reacherch other stuff like Communion Slave/Master, sometimes mass protection, etc.

If you really feel I'm an arrogant bragger, please feel free to put me in my place with a good duel, it's what I made this thread for. I'm going to safely say (for now until you put me in my place) Caelum is my only weakness.

[ February 03, 2004, 18:14: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Sounds like the disintegration wand and skull talisman that I like to put on my assassins

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Sounds like the disintegration wand and skull talisman that I like to put on my assassins <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">eh, not exactly... what is a disintegration wand??? DUEL TIME!! Prove to me a disintegration wand exists before I destroy your nation, lol!!!

[Kristoffer O]

I can take you on. Let me just make a Kristoffer-is-master-patch that allows me to make cheap disintegration wands, but not you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
I can take you on. Let me just make a Kristoffer-is-master-patch that allows me to make cheap disintegration wands, but not you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wonder what it would be like to verse and win against a programmer of the game. Although, I might refuse a "Kristoffer-is-master-patch".

[ February 03, 2004, 21:31: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[Argitoth]

Wait this thread isn't going as I planned.

... Ill post a duel request later this week. Someone needs to put me in my PLACE.

[ February 03, 2004, 21:33: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[diamondspider]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
I can take you on. Let me just make a Kristoffer-is-master-patch that allows me to make cheap disintegration wands, but not you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wonder what it would be like to verse and win against a programmer of the game. Although, I might refuse a "Kristoffer-is-master-patch". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My friend beat the guy who designed Diplomacy at his own game. Certainly made him proud.

As for Kristoffer's "master patch" I doubt he'd need that to win http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

@ Argitoth: don't get too cocky! I almost beat you with a ridiculous "dominion rush" strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If that sort of absurdity can get you down to 1 Dominion in 1 province in 25 turns, I'd not toot my horn too much yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ February 03, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: diamondspider ]

[PvK]

Sounds like Argitoth and diamondspider need to fight it out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[cihset]

Fight fight fight!!!!

[diamondspider]

Originally posted by PvK:
Sounds like Argitoth and diamondspider need to fight it out! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We already did! Funny game, I almost Dominion killed him between turn 25-30 but he came back and I ended-up resigning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Was fun, but I didn't find his "secret technique" to be all that strong really. LOTS of counters to it, although it seemed perfectly reasonable.

[Argitoth]

Remember everyone, 8 dominion is not THAT easily overcome unless you do something stupid like forget to ressurect your pretender, thats what I did in my DiamondSpider game.


ALSO!!!! Don't think there are lots of counters for my strategy, in a 1v1 I only use what I need to counter YOUR strategy. If it's a 4v4 it's a bit more tough for me because now I have two different strategies at once.

Ok, so there are lots of counters. BUT!!! I have come up with numerous counter-counters!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ February 04, 2004, 00:00: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
ALSO!!!! Don't think there are lots of counters for my strategy, in a 1v1 I only use what I need to counter YOUR strategy. If it's a 4v4 it's a bit more tough for me because now I have two different strategies at once.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How about a Black Forest Ulm using vampire counts to raise skeletons and cast disintegration, with rangers behind them and ghoul guardians out front? Add a member of the second tier to cast antimagic. A fortune tellers with nature for astral healing, and if really late game one with death for nether bolts.

[Argitoth]

That won't work!

Ulm can't reaserch for beans, there's no way he's getting disintegration, not to mention the scales Ulm needs to survive...

+3 order and +3 production.

There's just no way...


See, now it's duel time if you want to prove your point.

[ February 04, 2004, 01:48: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
Ulm can't reaserch for beans, there's no way he's getting disintegration, not to mention the scales Ulm needs to survive...

+3 order and +3 production.

There's just no way...

See, now it's duel time if you want to prove your point.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm perfectly willing to try it out. Just let me know where to find you.

[Argitoth]

Lol, perfect. We can duel on a friday night or sometime saturday. I'm busy with school monday through friday. Sound good to you?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
Lol, perfect. We can duel on a friday night or sometime saturday. I'm busy with school monday through friday. Sound good to you?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. Sounds good.

[Argitoth]

We need other "D&D" players too. Find your undefeatable strategy and start debating.

I don't want this thread to remain centered on my strategy.

[Argitoth]

CALLING GRAEME DICE!!

Yo, We might have to do this on sunday. You availible?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
We need other "D&D" players too. Find your undefeatable strategy and start debating.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd be happy to just play a game, but people these days are such weenies with incredibly short attention spans. Can't even get people who can concentrate for more than about 2 hours straight, let alone 20. I remember in the old days, it was no problem finding people who could concentrate on something for 30 hours straight, and there was something WRONG with you if you couldn't easily do 20. Nowadays, you're lucky if you can get somebody who's attention span is longer than 20 minutes. Bah.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Nowadays, you're lucky if you can get somebody who's attention span is longer than 20 minutes. Bah. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try talking to Zen then. He and I had no trouble playing a game (with 2 others as well) Last night for a couple of hours (until someone won) and then Zen and I chatted for a few more hours after that.

The real problem is that we have too many twitch gamers who think TBS is just really slow RTS. No thinking, no subtlety, no elegance. Just build hordes and throw them at someone. Bah.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
CALLING GRAEME DICE!!

Yo, We might have to do this on sunday. You availible? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. I'll need to see if I can get AIM to work again. What's your contact info?

[Argitoth]

You should get Trillian


AIM: Argitoth
ICQ: 169752168
MSN: Argitoth@hotmail.com
Yahoo: Argitoth

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Arryn:
The real problem is that we have too many twitch gamers who think TBS is just really slow RTS. No thinking, no subtlety, no elegance. Just build hordes and throw them at someone. Bah. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bah, indeed. I recently had the displeasure of making such an acquaintance. He *SAID* he liked strategy games. Then he complained the game was too slow and there wasn't any action! 5 turns later, he'd lost about 5 provinces to random events, and I hadn't even lifted a finger to actually attack him yet. Then on the moment one of the other players attacked him while he was complaining *I* wasn't attacking him, he quit the game.

What a baby.

Then I find out from the person who invited him over in the first place that this person is, in fact, a Starcraft weenie. BAH!

[ February 08, 2004, 00:07: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Argitoth]

Unimportant post.... Just read the above.

[ February 09, 2004, 04:06: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[Norfleet]

Any noteworthy disintegrations?

[Argitoth]

About disintegration... I casted it a few times and it did nothing. I was going to assassinate his commanders with disintegration but my assassins died when they retreated during assassinations. That is a bug, so I gave up on assassinations after that.

[ February 09, 2004, 04:08: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

It's not a bug. It's a game parameter. You can't retreat from an assassination attempt. I believe it's intentional.

[Argitoth]

Graeme Won... damn... The battle took around 8 hours to finish. I gave up by turn 66 after my pretender died from an unknown cause casting Stygian Paths. (He didn't die from the spell)

I was making 31 death gems a turn after casting Well of Misery.

Graeme... he had some really evil plans. He started causing lots of unrest. I was able to contain it for a little while Until I got massive spam "UNREST YOU IDIOT DO SOMETHIUNG ABOUT IT"... I couldn't do anything.

He started casting Hordes from Hell. I finally got Well of Misery and began casting Ghost Riders and Arouse Hunger like crazy. It didn't seem to do anything but Graeme said, "Ahhh. I was finding them to be very annoying."

I casted Plague on his home province just to try it out. I could have casted it a lot more times. Only after the end of the game did Graeme tell me his home province went to 9000 population after my only casting of the spell. I gotta cast that more often!

Really exciting game, but I got tired that his Vampire Queen pretender ran away from my pretender instead of fighting to HER death. Yes, she would have permanently died if she didn't run.

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/ArgitothDies.JPG
This shot was taken in the heroes list. My pretender died right after casting Stygian Path.

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/StygianPaths.JPG
This is the news confirming my pretender and all his units safely went through.

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/thebattle.JPG
This is the battle. My pretender is nowhere to be seen. Note: He is resistant to cold. Another note: I made the wights start in the front while my pretender stayed a bit more in back. Another another note: I checked the message from the battle and there were no commanders included.

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/Unrest.JPG
Daaaamn.... look at all the unrest http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/research.bmp
My knowledge is absolute! Supreme! I know all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

http://www.azbanjo.com/argitoth/Pictures/Island66.JPG
End-game look of Urgaia.

[ February 09, 2004, 04:45: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Zen:
It's not a bug. It's a game parameter. You can't retreat from an assassination attempt. I believe it's intentional. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I retreated from my assassination attempt. I scripted "Disintegrate, Retreat" so if they were found, they would retreat in the province closest province (which I owned). It DID work that way until I actually tried assassinating. My assassins used the disintegrate and retreat script and died even though you are not supposed to be able to retreat AND even if you did retreat, you could have gotten to a home province.

[ February 09, 2004, 03:44: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Well obviously it's your fault. You can't retreat from an assassination attempt. Next time don't script your mages to Retreat when you plan on assassinations.

[Graeme Dice]

This was definetly a good game. I was sure that Argitoth was going to attack me early on, while I had the territorial advantage, but he had the magic advantage. I had spent my first ten turns building wolfherders to use as patrollers, and it took a very long time to catch up in the research race. My capitol also got hit with the plague event around turn 50, but since I wasn't relying on it for troops I didn't worry too much about it. It finished off with 9000 population.

I was also very worried when he made it to level 9 conjuration, cast well of misery, then proceded to drop a lot of ghost riders and arouse hunger all over my territory. Thankfully, my blood slave income was good enough to cast hordes from hell on every turn to retake the provinces. I also reached level 9 conjuration just shortly thereafter, and was able to also cast ghost riders. I chose to cast in on the same provinces every turn however, to drive unrest up as quickly as possible. Once I had enchantment 9 also researched, I took my entire group of 20 illuminated ones and sent them into Argitoth's home provinces to cause unrest. The plan was originally to have them wait there until my nether bolters arrived and then to use them as communion slaves, but they worked well just by themselves.

I eventually had to cast dispel twice on his Well of Misery, and burnt up over 100 nature gems and 40 death gems to make sure it went away.

Manifestation is a decent assasination spell for BF Ulm, as the vampire counts are often tough enough to deal with the ashen angel.

Anyways, the links below are to some pictures describing various parts of the end game.
My Pretender: Desmerelda the Vampire Queen (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/Desmerelda.jpg)
The Army Graph (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/army.jpg)
Most of those troops were Wolves (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/army_of_wolves.jpg)

The Home Guard (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/Ulm.jpg)
Vampire Counts: Decent Mages, Great Harassers (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/Vampire.jpg)
This province will be down to 5K population in few turns from now. (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/blood_hunting.jpg)
Dominion Graph (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/dominion.jpg)
Forts Graph: How I managed to eventually catch up in research. (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/forts.jpg)

Gem Income Graph (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/gem_income.jpg)
My leftover gems (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/gems.jpg)
Ghouls: The Ultimate Castle Defense (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/ghouls.jpg)
The Hall of Fame (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/heroes.jpg)
Bifrons: The ultimate rapid attack unit. (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/ice_devil_one.jpg)
Gaap: Rapid Attack unit Two (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/ice_devil_three.jpg)

Nycator also arrived, but didn't survive a run -in with several skeleton raising Sauromancers as I hadn't yet made him a regen ring.
The Income Graph: Well of Misery's effect is clearly visible here. (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/income.jpg)
Magical Resources Left after Two Dispels (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/magic.jpg)
The Overall Research Graph (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/research_graph.jpg)

My Overall Research at the end. (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/research.jpg)

And finally, the strategy that won me the game.
Spies (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/spies_1.jpg)
More Spies (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/spies_2.jpg)
Even More Spies (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/spies_3.jpg)

And an overview of the final strategic situation:
Overview (http://homepage.usask.ca/~gdd851/Pictures/overview.jpg)

As a final word, give Argitoth a break people. he plays very well, and runs several hosted games without any major problems.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Any noteworthy disintegrations?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A few. He got some of my vampire counts before I gave them amulets of antimagic.

[mjlaufgr]

great AAR, both of you! I love stuff like this. You'll get him next time, Argitoth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mark

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by mjlaufgr:
great AAR, both of you! I love stuff like this.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What is AAR?


Originally posted by mjlaufgr:
You'll get him next time, Argitoth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm really not up for another 8 hour game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Edit: OMG!!! I THINK I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MY PRETENDER!!! What if he died because the dominion was too high in the province he was attacking? THAT MIGHT BE IT!

Edit: Thanks, mjlaufgr!

[ February 09, 2004, 04:50: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

After Action Report.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
Edit: OMG!!! I THINK I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MY PRETENDER!!! What if he died because the dominion was too high in the province he was attacking? THAT MIGHT BE IT! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did he have a never healing wound? If so, then that could be it.

[Osium]

Zen, I think you misunderstood what Argitoth was saying.

He said, he had his assasins scripted to retreat after the first cast as a precaution to being discovered not as part of the assasination attempt. Thats the reason why he had them scripted to retreat. Im unclear as to his complaint about the retreating on assasinations attempts. Ive never tried to script it, maybe his units attempted to retreat but since they can't they just stood there?

Obviously this is an instance of being "too clever for your own good". So what exactly happened? Did they just stand around and die? Did they rout off the map and auto die like mercs?

I can see where he is coming from. Since units CAN'T actually retreat from a battle, successfully or otherwise in an assasination attempt one would think that such an order would be disregarded. It appears as though they had some other unforseen reaction to retreating on an assasination attempt which I am curious to hear about ;p

On the other hand, im not sure this would have totally defeated his strategy, he could have simply gone into micro mode and adjusted his scripts whenever he attempted to assasinate. If they were active set them to attack. If they are passive set them to attack and retreat.

[Argitoth]

Lost an Eye, Weakened, Crippled, Feeble Minded.

I don't think it would matter if he had a never-healing would because my pretender got it once before, but overtime healed himself.

I don't think so. You can't retreat from an assassination. So in effect you have to when you try to "assasinate" someone place the command on the global screen. So while you can and probably should use "retreat" for patrolling forces to get you into position. As soon as you are in a province that you want to assassinate and give the command, you can't retreat from your assasination attempt so you would change the script.

It's a choice of either one way or the other. You can either take the chance of assassinating first but being discovered by patrollers and more than likely killed, or being discovered by patrollers first and escaping before you can do your assassination attempt.

If I was in such a position and I gave the Assassination command, I'd switch my script away from Retreat because you are not allowed to retreat from a assassination either initiated by you or another player.

[Osium]

I agree with you. I'd do the same thing. Im just wondering what exactly happens IF you try to retreat in an assasination attempt. Do you flee the battle and auto die ala mercs? Do you just stand around doing nothing? If thats the case, he probably didn't expect that to happen. He expected them to disregard an impossible order and fight on however. It wasn't the end of the world for his assasinations he just had to micro it out, but apparently he didn't want to do that ;p

[Arryn]

Retreat from assassination is 100% fatal. The unit will be 'retreated', and then killed (offscreen). That's the way the game is coded. I saw this happen (once) to one of my preaching priests in a SP game.

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Osium:
Did they rout off the map and auto die like mercs?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Routed, but didn't die like mercs.

Originally posted by Osium:
im not sure this would have totally defeated his strategy<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Three assassination attempts per turn WOULD be very helpful, but after I spent 10 gems for the skull staff for each assassin, I kinda just said, "Bleh, nevermind".

You 'retreat' and you die from the attempt. So in effect you *could* program an assassination in Argitoth's case to be Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Retreat.

And if you kill them before you retreat, you win. If you don't you die.

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Retreat from assassination is 100% fatal. The unit will be 'retreated', and then killed (offscreen). That's the way the game is coded. I saw this happen (once) to one of my preaching priests in a SP game. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Remember now, my assassins retreated multiple times after being found since I had a province for them to retreat into, but during assassinations, the game wasn't coded for retreating into home provinces, so my assassins just died.

[Norfleet]

Actually, microing the assassins to do that won't work: What if they assassinate somebody, and are discovered on the same turn? Then they'll perform their assassination properly, since they have the right orders, but then try to "assassinate" an entire army.....and be killed.

It's a no-win situation, unless you're using assassins that can cast returning, in which case you can script them for "Disintegrate, Returning", in which case they'll always fire a disintegrate, then vanish.

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
...you can script them for "Disintegrate, Returning", in which case they'll always fire a disintegrate, then vanish. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh... heh... then everytime I assassinated someone, my assassin would automatically end up in my home province and I'd have to sneak ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL... etc etc.... the way back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[gibson]

Nice AAR...I like pictures http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Though I'd recommend reading, or at least skimming this guide (http://www.r1ch.net/img-formats/) so that your pictures are sharp and crisp and maybe even smaller next time!

One of these days I'm going to try a multiplayer game...they sound like so much fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[Arryn]

Life is tough. Then you die. Or you can simply die sooner and avoid all the unpleasant living. heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by Zen:
You 'retreat' and you die from the attempt. So in effect you *could* program an assassination in Argitoth's case to be Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Disentigrate, Retreat.

And if you kill them before you retreat, you win. If you don't you die. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">oh oh, that's another thing. I could have coded a few disintegrations before retreating, but I only coded one disintegrate and retreat. Since disintegration's range is very limited my assassin would summon skeletons (because there was no availible target for the spell) and then retreat. So I guess a few disintegrations would work, the only problem is that it increases the chance of dieing when found mostly because of archers and other ranged attacks.

[Arryn]

Everything in Dominions is about choices and trade-offs. You really do need to get used to the fact that you will never find the 'optimal' solution it seems you are seeking.

Place first order to "Attack One Turn" then Disentigrates, then Retreat. That should get you in range.

[Osium]

Essentially they auto die like Mercs ;p Its simply a technicality if they explode in a plume of blood on the screen, or you have to simulate it in your mind off screen ;p

So like me, he probably wasn't aware they did that and when he found out they did it was a little deflating, he had built up a fair bit towards this and it fell flat.

Live and learn ;p

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Osium:
Essentially they auto die like Mercs ;p Its simply a technicality if they explode in a plume of blood on the screen, or you have to simulate it in your mind off screen ;p<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since the unit is guaranteed to die if they retreat, scripted retreat orders should probably be ignored in this case.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Osium:
So like me, he probably wasn't aware they did that and when he found out they did it was a little deflating, he had built up a fair bit towards this and it fell flat.

Live and learn ;p <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is why I think there is merit to the idea of trying basic strategies out in SP, first, if for no other reason than to get a better handle on the way the game works. Once you understand game mechanics to a reasonable degree (the word 'reasonable' and the value of 'degree' being subject to debate), then one will be better prepared to try things out on much-less-predictable humans in MP.

Personally, I prefer to try to avoid making what are often silly mistakes where others can see them. I'm sure I'll make plenty of other mistakes in full view of the world, so there's no need for me to make it worse by being underprepared.

[Osium]

I agree. If a unit cannot retreat and live they should not retreat period scripted or otherwise, and if they are scripted they ignore the order much like they will ignore the order to cast a specific spell if the target is out of range. I mean if you're encircled or trapped you're not gonna try and run away. Maybe a feature we can wish for in the future?

[Arryn]

The no-retreat on assassinations is deliberate. I seriously doubt that it will be changed. Nor should it be, IMO, since it's also realistic. Lastly, and most importantly, being allowed to retreat would significantly disbalance this aspect of the game.

I don't know if it would unbalance the game, but it would make assassins much more survivable. Unless of course they give the Move and Patrol order to armies moving into opponents terrain. Thus nulling the effect of the retreat.

I'm torn on that particular debate because I like assassins, but I don't want them to be a standard fare and make the nations with them suddenly much more powerful while the ones without, would have a significant disadvantage.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Osium:
I agree. If a unit cannot retreat and live they should not retreat period scripted or otherwise, and if they are scripted they ignore the order much like they will ignore the order to cast a specific spell if the target is out of range. I mean if you're encircled or trapped you're not gonna try and run away. Maybe a feature we can wish for in the future? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That'd make for a very interesting motivational feature, if units that cannot retreat and live become unbreakable. It'd also make for an interesting application of the Art of War, where it states that when you surround an army, that you should leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard.

Nothing would drive this point in harder than discovering that your opponent will no longer break when he has nowhere to run. And you could then apply the Cortez strategy: When Cortez arrived in the Americas, he burned the boats so that they couldn't retreat: The men were thus more motivated.

[cihset]

Originally posted by Argitoth:
Graeme Won... damn... The battle took around 8 hours to finish. I gave up by turn 66 after my pretender died from an unknown cause casting Stygian Paths. (He didn't die from the spell) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly that has happened to my pretender also, I was playing C'tis, war of Orania scenario. Had a Lord of the Gates pretender, ridiculously powerful with All paths around tenish and Death at 15 (due to some wishing). I was happily moving around with stygian paths or so I thought. The second throw my Pretender went missing, just like yours. In the message it said that noone got missing in the stygian path spell, but my pretender didn't arrive at the destination and the Icon in the message list (next to the message 'Osiris has cast Stygian Path') there was a question mark, not the picture of my pretender.
Which concurs that he has somehow died that turn.

I first thought I was just terribly unlucky to have my pretender the only one vanishing in a 400+ army that moved in the spell, but now when I see that it has happened to Argitoth too, I'm beginning to suspect that something is fishy about this.
Especially since the spell says that everything went fine, noone has been lost.

The spell needs a lookover since I sure as h-ck wont use it if the casting mage has an insane increased risk of getting killed in the casting of the spell.

[Targa]

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Let's say I send my prophet to my southern borders to preach, because an enemy dominion is creeping in. My main army is "up north", fighting Nation X, so I set my prophet to "retreat" on the off chance that my southern neighbor decides to invade. That way he'll retreat into one of my provinces, and I can march him back north while turning my army south. He's preaching away, when suddenly an assassin jumps out from behind a tree. Naturally, he follows his scripted orders to retreat, which he does, and apparently escapes without a scratch. But since "retreating during an assassination attempt" is "illegal" according to the game code, he will then be summarily executed off-screen?

If that's the case, then that makes absolutely no sense. I agree that scripted retreat orders should be ignored by the game code during assassination attempts.

[Argitoth]

Originally posted by cihset:
The spell needs a lookover since I sure as h-ck wont use it if the casting mage has an insane increased risk of getting killed in the casting of the spell. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The mage should be the LEAST likely to die.

#1. He has the knowledge of the underworld
#2. He's the only one leading the army
#3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif whatever...

[LordArioch]

IIRC, retreat orders should not be executed by either side during assasinations, but due to a bug, both sides can currently retreat and die.

Still, as it is I find it helps assasains. I've lost my pretender because he was scripted to retreat.

[Osium]

Arryn, I don't think you can consider retreating while on an assasination attempt a basic strategy let alone a strategy in the context it was given. It's not even in the same catergory, the retreat order he scripted was NOT intended for assasination attempts, it was to evade patrols. It is what I like to call an "undocumented game mechanic" in this case it should be called a "contradictory game mechanic". It clearly states, it is not possible to retreat in an assasination attempt when one reads the ingame tips. The only strategic significance I can see to retreating while assasinating, is if you know your opponant likes to script casters to retreat, and try to assasinate them for the free retreat kill.

To me when something says not possible it means not possible. Not "well its possible but you will die so don't have it scripted!" As has been previously pointed it, it appears it is a bug and in future patches we can hope it will be corrected so that retreat scripted orders will be ignored in such events.

Saying "go practice more noob" is such a holier than thou attitude. If something doesn't work the way it should work, as documented, the blame shouldn't be put on the player because he didn't test his strategies enough, blame may be attributed for not adapting to a failed strategy, but not attributed because it failed, especially give the circumstances. If I tested all my strategies before I played a multiplayer game i'd never play a multiplayer game. I'd be too busy seeing if it was feasible within the game engine despite ingame documentation claiming one thing or another. As I said you roll with the punches, sometimes they work sometimes they don't, no real need for you to launch into the whole "test your strats before you play stop crying" thing. To highlight the point. Unless you've actually TRIED to retreat from an assasination attempt, or had a commander/mage/priest scripted to retreat and have an assasination attempt on them, you would never know the unit does retreat and dies doing so. It would never dawn on me to say "you know I wonder if its broken, maybe I CAN retreat from assasinations attempts" /me giggles in anticipation of a major exploitation ;p

Granted, the ingame tip is vague when compared to a spell stating "casting x for y gems results in z summons" it seems to be plenty clear cut when you actually read the tip. As such no fault can be attributed to him for not experiencing that particular mechanic untill that game. This is an extremely deep game. If people with more experience in certain aspects of the game told other people with less in those aspects to go learn more before they play again... Well this wouldn't be a very enjoyable community would it?

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Argitoth:
Edit: OMG!!! I THINK I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MY PRETENDER!!! What if he died because the dominion was too high in the province he was attacking? THAT MIGHT BE IT! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did he have a never healing wound? If so, then that could be it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Everyone moving on stygian paths will get a small wound (an) by toxic fumes and harrowing ghosts. Unfortunately there is a bug in the text message. The caster was not added when lost soldiers were counted (thanks for making us notice).

[cihset]

Aha! I did replay the turn ten times, trying to do things differently.

My pretender is a Lord of the gates (Here he is in all his glory) (http://bart.sm.luth.se/~cihset-7/osiris.gif)
Turn 1 : I Stygian Path to ermor capital, he dies in the void.
Turn 2 : I stygian path to my capital, he dies in the void.
turn 3 : I stygian path to one of my provinces (with positive dominion) with no castle, he dies in the void.
turn 4 - 8 : I try different approaches with shutting down dominions to check if there is a random generator problem. (he dies in the void)
turn 9 : I stygian path to my capitol WITHOUT any troops. He survives and arrive unharmed in capital.
Turn 10 : I stygian path with removing a quarter of the undead troops and he dies in the void.

What theese few unscientific tests makes me belive is that if the army is big enough, the caster will be slayed regardless of other factors when travelling with stygian path.

Now this is only a theory, could also have something to do with the horrormark, or that the army is mainly undead and the caster is not, and hence he get all the damage the army should have gotten from the poison or whatnot.

What I am convinced of though is that the spell isn't supposed to work as it does in my current game (which I saved for anyone to look into here (http://bart.sm.luth.se/~cihset-7/war_of_orania.zip) )

[Arryn]

Originally posted by cihset:
Now this is only a theory, could also have something to do with the horrormark<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My wild-*** guess suspicion is that it's the horror mark at fault. But if that's true, then it's another undocumented 'feature'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Otherwise, it's looking very much like a bug ...

Try repeating the #9 test several more times to see if the success is consistent. Also try a set using just living troops, and another set with just a few undead. You are closing in on the problem, but you need more data points.

[ February 10, 2004, 13:30: Message edited by: Arryn ]

[cihset]

Originally posted by Arryn:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by cihset:
Now this is only a theory, could also have something to do with the horrormark<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My wild-*** guess suspicion is that it's the horror mark at fault. But if that's true, then it's another undocumented 'feature'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Otherwise, it's looking very much like a bug ...

Try repeating the #9 test several more times to see if the success is consistent. Also try a set using just living troops, and another set with just a few undead. You are closing in on the problem, but you need more data points. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I did also do further test with #9, and after repeating 1-8 (without troops) he hasn't died a single time in the void by the stygian path.

Now I did it with live troops, and no undead troops. I did wish for some militias and got an army of 265 militia under Osiris' command. Now, when repeating #1-8 above, he died every single time in the void, with the usual message 'The journey through the realm of death wwnt unexpectedly well. No one was lost' (observe the wwnt spelling error)
As a finale, I did a Last stygian path with no troops and he arrived unharmed in the capital.
Furthermore, I have not ever seen another message than the 'The journey through the realm of death wwnt unexpectedly well. No one was lost' when casting Stygian path.

In conclusion, don't use Stygian Path, unless you have a very small group of troops, otherwise you will loose your spellcaster. I wonder if it had anything to do with that the commander was left out of the casualty report from the spell that Kristoffer mentioned earlier?

[ February 10, 2004, 17:51: Message edited by: cihset ]

[Norfleet]

I wonder if Stygian Paths randomly kills your commander, or piles poison damage on him? Maybe you should try it with poison immune commanders, such as snake-ringing them, or using undead commanders?

[cihset]

Obviously it didn't 'randomly' kill my pretender, since he died 18 of 18 times when trying to travel with first undead troops, then later milita. But when travelling alone, he survived everytime. Observe that while he travelled with troops, noone else got hurt or killed while travelling.

[Kristoffer O]

It certainly looks bugged. Thanks for your dedicated debugging initiative.

[Kristoffer O]

Bug fixed. All damages were dealt to the commanding officer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Bug fixed. All damages were dealt to the commanding officer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ouch, no wonder! The more troops, the more damage the commander took. Ick. I'm sure this will relieve many players.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Osium:
Saying "go practice more noob" is such a holier than thou attitude.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To accuse me of this means you missed the intent of my posting -- completely. Sports teams do something called "practice", where they try out ideas, techniques, tactics, etc. to see how they may work, or how well they are able to achieve certain goals, before they face real competition in match against another team. Do you follow the analogy thus far? SP = practice, MP = real. My opinion, and it's just that, an opinion, which I clearly stated as such in my post, was that there is merit to practicing. Unless you happen to enjoy rude surprises. Some people do. I don't happen to be one of them, which I also pointed out in that post that seems to have offended you.

You took the post personally, which wasn't intended, solely because I happened to quote text of yours as a preface to the point I was trying to convey. I apologize for this, as the post was not intended as an attack.

Unless you've actually TRIED to retreat from an assasination attempt, or had a commander/mage/priest scripted to retreat and have an assasination attempt on them, you would never know the unit does retreat and dies doing so. It would never dawn on me to say "you know I wonder if its broken, maybe I CAN retreat from assasinations attempts"<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my case, I was routinely giving retreat orders to my lone priests preaching in PD-only defended provinces near one of the AIs. An AI got annoyed at this and decided to assassinate my priest. I learned how the mechanic actually works by watching the replay. It's what the replays are for, IMO. To learn how the game resolves your orders. Of course, they are fun to watch, too. Sometimes (often) you learn that orders you thought were okay are anything but that. Which is why I no longer script retreat orders to units that are not engaging in battle in the coming month. But I would not have known this had I not been trying various things in my SP games. In the blitz MP games I've been involved in (all two of them, so I'm no expert by far) I do not have the luxury of being able to examine, in detail, what happens each turn in battle as I run the risk of not completing a turn in time. It happened once, in my first MP game, when I spent too much time looking over a replay. Since the game does not keep a running timer on-screen of how much time you have left in your turn.

Another thing you can do in SP that you cannot in MP is to save the game and re-run a turn many times, giving different combat orders in the same battle (such as a fortress assault, which will tend to have the same AI forces each iteration), to observe the results. This is how I've been learning where best to position my units on the battlefield, and what spells tend to work better than others. By eliminating the variable of what an opponent is throwing at me, I know that a different result is less likely to be chance and more likely to be the result of a change in my tactics. It's a variation on the concept of the battle simulator that Cherry has.

To sum up, I view SP as a learning tool. You certainly don't have to use it, any more than it is necessary to read the manual before playing a game. But using the tools at your disposal, like reading a manual, will make playing easier, and perhaps more enjoyable.

[cihset]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Argitoth:
Edit: OMG!!! I THINK I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO MY PRETENDER!!! What if he died because the dominion was too high in the province he was attacking? THAT MIGHT BE IT! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did he have a never healing wound? If so, then that could be it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Everyone moving on stygian paths will get a small wound (an) by toxic fumes and harrowing ghosts. Unfortunately there is a bug in the text message. The caster was not added when lost soldiers were counted (thanks for making us notice). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure there are nothing else wrong with the spell??

I just lost my same pretender to another stygian path, noone else were lost in the process.

(had the command of 400+ undead and some scorpions)
I'll check and see if I always will loose him when travelling to the same and other provinces (I backuped the turn)

[ February 10, 2004, 12:40: Message edited by: cihset ]