Black Company Mod

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I've been working on The Black Company Mod ever since 2.08 came out. I am close to releasing the first beta. This mod is loosely based on the fine fantasy series by Glen Cook. I have tried to make the units a bit more expensive than they should be, except the basic infantry.

At this point I'd like any feedback people might have before I release the mod to the general public. E.g. units I should have added, obvious changes, etc. So far I have:

Black Infantry--basic, cheap, foot soldiers. Lightly armored but well armed--and able to throw two javelins at a time.

Black Captains--healers, leaders, warriors with a smattering of battle magic. Black Captains continually study history to learn strategems and craft. They exude confidence and morale. Expensive units.

Forvalaka--expensive, powerful, were-leopards. Faster than water mages on acid, regenerate, no armor, 4 clawed whirlwind attacks. Patron is the Shapechanger.

Limper Infantry--expensive, super-heavy infantry. Slow like their patron, but extremely dangerous infighters.

Boomers--mages taught one spell, and one spell only: fire ball. Artillery units, expensive, no armor, low hit points. Patron is The Howler.

The Taken--powerful immortal battlemages. Extremely expensive. Also unholy priests level 3. Very good leaders of men and magical beings.

The Limper--hero unit, immensely powerful Taken. The Limper was once a pretender god himself, but through vicious physical and spiritual torture, plus overwhelming magical assault and unbreakable oaths, he was subverted to the will of the Empire. A poor leader, but he retains his terrifying presence, and his unspeakable black arts are as puissant as ever. Heavily armored, tough and indefatigable. Maniacally insane. Fire/Death 8/1. Unholy 3.

The Howler--hero unit, immensely powerful Taken. The Howler was also once a pretender. A flying unit, his howls fill the enemy with fear. Air/Fire 4/4. Unholy 3.

The Shapechanger--hero unit, immensely powerful Taken. Once a pretender, now a slave to the Empire. The Shapechanger was at one time an incredibly powerful nature mage who specialised in shape changing, but is now unable to control his?/her? shape any longer--and is constantly continually writhing between humanoid forms. A great general, and a powerful warrior him/herself. Nature 1. Unholy 3.

[Leif_-]

You'll need a shaman / hedge-wizard class - and One-Eye and Goblin as national heroes.

[rabelais]

I like the Hedge Wizard idea, does well with Ulm's device oriented weak mages.

I think the Lady and SoulCatcher need Awe,

and if you put the Dominator in... well, damn! ...makes the PoD look like the Avon Lady.

Foraklava should have decent natural protection....

Murgen might come with an Astral Window ability.

Sounds like fun,

Rabe the Stone Soldier

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I think I was trying to wrap the leaders up into one tidy package, making the Black Captain be both hedge wizard and Leader. I will add a hedge wizard that is fire 1 and random 1.

As far as The Lady and Soulcatcher--The Lady would be one of the Pretenders, as would The Dominator. I am unsure of how to do new pretenders. Soulcatcher, otoh, is too subtle to do well. I was thinking of doing her as a mage-succubus type, with her units being succubi as well. That would simulate "taking" in that she and her minions could turn enemy leaders.... Maybe make them stealthy and assassins, and during assassinations turn the enemy leaders? And very expensive....

One Eye and Goblin are problems in and of themselves. They are extremely powerful hedge wizards that keep their power under wraps so as not to draw the attenton of the Taken--they don't want to be taken themselves. They are also very subtle. And adding them would mean even more Hero units, in an already hero top-heavy mod!! Maybe that would be a good thing.

[Bowlingballhead]

Ack! A Black Company-inspired mod WITHOUT Soulcatcher? A travesty! An absolute, utter, complete travesty.

She's a hero with lots of astral magic, and probably death thrown in there, too. Give her the Abboleth's 'enslave soul' attack. To make her faithful to the book you'd have to throw in regen and immortal, but you're starting to talk about something really ridiculously nasty now. At least there's no reason to give her physical stats above those of a common soldier.

Of course, when you try to make a cult-favorite like Black Company, somebody's bound to disagree with your interpretation. No help for it.

[Coffeedragon]

As you get the Heroes for free, won´t this Mod be vastly over-powerful? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

[Bossemanden]

Maybe force Luck -1 to ensure that hero units arrive slowly...and that bad things happen (or the Rebel).

[Catquiet]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Coffeedragon:
As you get the Heroes for free, won´t this Mod be vastly over-powerful? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any mod that tries to be faithful to the heroes (and Villains, if you can tell the difference) of the Black Company will be vastly powerful per definition.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you should split it into two nations. One for the Black Company : good troops and good heroes. One for the Empire : average troops and amazing heroes.

They weren't always on the same side.

[Bossemanden]

Originally posted by Catquiet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Coffeedragon:
As you get the Heroes for free, won´t this Mod be vastly over-powerful? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any mod that tries to be faithful to the heroes (and Villains, if you can tell the difference) of the Black Company will be vastly powerful per definition.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you should split it into two nations. One for the Black Company : good troops and good heroes. One for the Empire : average troops and amazing heroes.

They weren't always on the same side. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now that sounds as an idea.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Catquiet:
Maybe you should split it into two nations. One for the Black Company : good troops and good heroes. One for the Empire : average troops and amazing heroes.

They weren't always on the same side. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would be neat - even neater as themes.

Basic nation: The Lady's Empire.
Theme#2: Black Company [For Empire]
Theme#3: Black Company [Vs. Empire]

.....But that is a hell of a lot of extra work. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

The reason I started this mod was twofold--I love the Black Company series and would like to play it in Dominions, and I have some ideas about play balancing that I wanted to mess around with. Some of these ideas are:

1. making a more powerful unit that costs mis-proportionately more than other units to start with, but has less cost over time, e.g. in supplies. Take the Limper Infantry as the main example of this. 1.5X heavy infantry, costs 2X a heavy infantry, but still only eats 1/unit of supply per month.

2. making units more powerful not through strength or hits, but through endurance and morale. Again, the Limper Infantry is my example. Sure, they have great armor also, but the main difference between neutral hvy inf and them is the Mor 15 vs 10, and Enc 1 vs 3. In fact, they are very similar to Ulm Hvy Inf, except for the morale and endurance--and the fact that they cost more.

3. I also wanted to experiment with a top-heavy empire in a way. The primary foot-soldier of the Empire isn't important in this Mod. In the book each unit was vastly different, coming from different absorbed kingdoms, armed and armored completely differently and sporting different tactics and strategies. But the big wins/losses were almost always due to the heroes. I was hoping to emulate this with a kind of generic foot-soldier. I did kick around the idea of making 4-6 vastly different basic units, but that would take away from the flavor of the Empire. Instead, I have a generic infantry, 4 vastly different vastly expensive elite units, 2 great leaders, and 4 ultra powerful heroes that you might or might might not get. In a +2 luck, you should get one hero every 20 turns, which should make up for the slow military growth this expensive mod requires. That, and the fact that an army of 50 will eat 50 supplies/month, yet be as powerful as an army of ~75. An army travels on its stomach, and I am making powerful stomachs.

I am still kicking around the idea of Soulcatcher as a unit that charms/dominates enemy commanders, with her patron unit as a stealthy assassin charmer/dominator (as in when the BC took Whisper).

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Anybody want to make some icons for me? I am not visually artistic. So far, I have borrowed other units' icons....

Black Infantry--light infantry
Limper Infantry--super heavy infantry
Forvalaka--were-leopard
Boomer--battlemages, fire ball throwers
Shapechanger--hero
Howler--hero on flying carpet
Limper--hero, battlemage, soldier

I also need a theme banner.

Thanks!

[Peter Ebbesen]

Enc 1 vs 3 is no real difference to Heavy Infantry - fights need to Last for a long, long, time for encumbrance on infantry to be important. Morale 15 vs 10, on the other hand, is an enormous difference. 15 is what the countries with highest morale get for their best (usually sacred) troops. If the Limper infantry only cost twice as much as regular heavy infantry in gold, they are probably underpriced.

(Well, I may have misunderstood you, but from your description it sounded as if your Limper Infantry would be about as strong as Ulm Guardians and with about the same movement allowance, but with higher morale and possibly higher magic resistance - while costing approximately the same.)

Anyhow, looking forwards to what you come up with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I hadn't considered the Guardians. When I look at their stats, they look very similar. Hmmmm. I was comparing them to Ulm Inf 3, which I consider to be very heavy infantry.

Compared to Ulm Guardians, they have very similar stats. +1 Morale, +1 St, -1 Hp, -2 Armor, etc. Cost is similar as well.

I may need to differentiate them a bit. Thanks!

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Coffeedragon:
As you get the Heroes for free, won´t this Mod be vastly over-powerful? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any mod that tries to be faithful to the heroes (and Villains, if you can tell the difference) of the Black Company will be vastly powerful per definition.

Just need to add the Dominator as a pretender with a standard attack of, hmm. Master Enslave to be thematic (and possibly the corresponding Astral Magic to survive the fatigue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ), and it should be done. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Nah, that is one good reason for leaving the Dominator out of the pretender selection.

[Teraswaerto]

Having powerful heroes isn't necessarily a balance problem. You need luck to get them & luck as a scale is kinda weak. I doubt anyone would claim Tien Chi to be overpowered since they have immortal heroes with good magics and special abilities.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
Having powerful heroes isn't necessarily a balance problem. You need luck to get them & luck as a scale is kinda weak. I doubt anyone would claim Tien Chi to be overpowered since they have immortal heroes with good magics and special abilities. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ahem. The immortal hero units proposed for the Black Company mod are incredibly more powerful than the weaklings T'ien C'hi gets. Reread the first post. We are talking hero units with magic skills usually only seen on pretender gods (8/1, 4/4), and, if they are to be anywhere near faithful to the Black Company novels, very high hitpoints, defense, and protection as well. And possibly regeneration.

Basically, it corresponds to giving the player 0-3 extra non-customisable pretender gods through luck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

And then there are the RECRUITABLE immortal Taken mages (good magic, high leadership, high hitpoints &etc) with 3 unholy priest levels as well. They may not be able to fly like Spring and Autumn's Celestial Master, but that is most likely the only area where T'ien C'hi can beat them.

[Bossemanden]

I think the recruitable Taken should be changed to a theme-specific summons spell ala vampire count for Ulm Black Forest. The reasoning is that the Taken cant be bought but must be Taken through magical means.

Maybe prereq: Death 3 and Astral 3 (based on the description of the Taking of Whisper in the first book).
Cost should be in the order of 40-50 gems of either Death or Astral gems.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I am not convinced Taken are disproportionate to the mod as a whole. There are no good researchers in this mod. That means that even with powerful magic Users, you don't get powerful spells. Early game, you are scrambling to stay alive vs. the faster starters. Mid-game you have a few ok spells like flare and fire-spark, but although the high precision makes these spells more puissant than normal, they are still low level spells. Late-game, you are really hurting due to the lack of research. Everyone else is going to be doing the big powerful spells, while the Black Empire will still be doing low to mid level spells--just a lot more of them.

I'm glad you brought up Niefel Jarls. I was trying to come up with a cross between them and Wraith Lords. I think I succeeded! I might have to raise their cost a slight amount, and I might lower their priestly power, but otherwise I think I got it right. I hope to release the module to the public sometime this week with the largest of the play balance issues worked out (so I don't embarrass myself too much). At that time you can try it out and let me know!

Right now, in one game, I am in turn 30, no heroes yet, but half and half Black Captains and Taken as commanders. I am finding the Forvalaka to be overly powerful. The Limper Infantry is about right on, now that I have increased their armor and cost. The Black Infantry has surprised me with its efficacy. Despite their low Pro of 6, they seem to really kick butt. A small screen of Limper Infantry and a large number of Black Infantry really seems to do the trick.

Strategically, the Limper Infantry is a problem. Their movement of 1/7 means getting them to the fight is hard work. Once they get there however, they do the job.

The Forvalaka move 3/30, and they are a pleasure to use. Their Pro of 5 means they die fairly quickly, which is good since they are inhumanly powerful infighters. Sorta like magical berserkers. I am going to scale their attacks back a bit as they seem too dangerous. Archers should pincushion them, but haven't run into many of those. Knights and heavy cav should also be efficacious with their lances.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
[QB] I am not convinced Taken are disproportionate to the mod as a whole. There are no good researchers in this mod. That means that even with powerful magic Users, you don't get powerful spells.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it means that you will rely on sages or other independents for your research just like everybody else, who do not have good researchers as part of their national theme.

Good and cheap researchers in the national theme is not a prerequisite for good research. It can certainly makes things easier, but it is seldom required.


Early game, you are scrambling to stay alive vs. the faster starters. Mid-game you have a few ok spells like flare and fire-spark, but although the high precision makes these spells more puissant than normal, they are still low level spells. Late-game, you are really hurting due to the lack of research. Everyone else is going to be doing the big powerful spells, while the Black Empire will still be doing low to mid level spells--just a lot more of them.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As stated above, I really don't think this will be the case. I think you will quite likely have found one or several sites with sages or other indigineous mages within the first 10-20 rounds, after which you have been producing at least one researcher each round.

Assuming you do not have a rainbow-mage/researcher as a pretender in the first place, and have gone for conjuration magic in order to be able to conjure up researchers for gems. (So many excellent choices)


I'm glad you brought up Niefel Jarls. I was trying to come up with a cross between them and Wraith Lords. I think I succeeded! I might have to raise their cost a slight amount, and I might lower their priestly power, but otherwise I think I got it right. I hope to release the module to the public sometime this week with the largest of the play balance issues worked out (so I don't embarrass myself too much). At that time you can try it out and let me know!
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, what more can one ask? All the previous nitpicking is to a large degree based on guesses based on your comments. It will be nice to see the actuality. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I must say that 300 gold immortal mages with high armour, hitpoints, morale, magic resitance, precision, AND magic paths does seem a bit over the top and open to REAL abuse, but let us see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Teraswaerto]

I though only "Soulcatcher" would be immortal, or are all the heroes immortal? Anyway, how was the skill level of fire 8 determined? I haven't read the books in question, but in Dom having 3 in one path makes one a "master" of that path, and a King of Elemental Fire has 4, and that's as high as it gets except on a pretender.

The Jotun hero Angerboda has something like 3 astral, 3 death, 3 blood and 2 nature, so having 4/4 isn't that huge. The 3 unholy doesn't make much difference, since it isn't synergistic with anything. If the hero spends his/her time raising the dead all his/her other powers are wasted.

If they're all immortal it's a bit trickier, I admit.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I modeled my recruitable Taken off of Wraith Lords: immortal, undead, mage-generals. Stats as of now:

hp 30, st 15, enc 0, att 13, def 13, prec 13, mr 15, mor 15, fear 1, regen 10, gcost 300, fire/unholy 4/3, standard 20, immortal, undead. Expertleader, okmagicleader, goodundeadleader.

A big difference tween WL and Taken are Taken are not Ethereal, but have better armor (black steel full plate, helmet, shield). Taken have a mace, while WL have Bane Blades. WL have more hits. Taken have unholy 3--which is a big change, and one I am observing the effects of.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

You make a lot of good points, but I'll just address two of them.

The first is relying on luck for research. Yep. Good point. With luck you can get your research going, only 20 turns or so behind your neighbors. And it might be more than 20 turns, as this is a slow-out-of-the-gate nation....

The second point I'd like to address:

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
I must say that 300 gold immortal mages with high armour, hitpoints, morale, magic resitance, precision, AND magic paths does seem a bit over the top and open to REAL abuse, but let us see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [/QB]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hard to refute! However, I'd still say that Niefel Jarls are far more powerful. Breakdown

NJ Taken Analysis
sz 5 2 no trample for T
hp 72 30 NJ can take more dg
pro 15 26 T have heavy armor
mor 15 15 tie
mr 18 15 NJ win self confidence
enc 4 0 T are undead
st 25 15 Big win to NJ
att 12 13 Slight edge to T
def 16 13 Makes up for the armor?
prec 12 13 Slight edge to T
mv 3/14 2/14 Strategic edge to NJ

NJ has quickness for X2 spells/attacks, huge ice cloud, an extra trample attack, fire 3, and is sacred (sacred increases cost by 50%).

T has minimum regen, is immortal, fire 4, and unholy 3. It has been argued that the unholy 3 is no help, and in the test games it hasn't. The T's armor may be too heavy; it certainly adds fatigue to their spell casting, providing a real boundary there.

I'd say that the NJ beats out the Taken overall, and that if it wasn't sacred it would cost about 375 gold and 40 res. The Taken's cost of 350 gold and 35 res seems in line--or slightly high.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

All the heroes are immortal, as are all the recruitable Taken. 4 heroes. The recruitable Taken are roughly equivalent to Wraith Lords. I may have to scale them down a bit, or make them more expensive, but I am watching that in my sample games.

I made some major additions Last night: Soulcatcher and her Soul Gatherer stealthy assassin minions. I haven't had a chance yet to try them out, but they could add a few layers of complexity to the mod.

Right now, you play and play and you hope and you hope for one of those heroes to pop up. Until at least one does, you are at a severe disadvantage compared to the other nations. Or at least that is how it appears to me so far. It could be that a different style of play would do better.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
I modeled my recruitable Taken off of Wraith Lords: immortal, undead, mage-generals. Stats as of now:

hp 30, st 15, enc 0, att 13, def 13, prec 13, mr 15, mor 15, fear 1, regen 10, gcost 300, fire/unholy 4/3, standard 20, immortal, undead. Expertleader, okmagicleader, goodundeadleader.

A big difference tween WL and Taken are Taken are not Ethereal, but have better armor (black steel full plate, helmet, shield). Taken have a mace, while WL have Bane Blades. WL have more hits. Taken have unholy 3--which is a big change, and one I am observing the effects of. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Another big difference would be the regen 10 on the Taken, and the fact that they only cost 300 gold as opposed to the 40 death gems [and one turn action from a good death leader] you need for Wraith Lords.

Niefel Jarls, the most individually powerful recruitable leaders at this time, cost 500 gold - and while they have twice the hitpoints of your Taken, they are neither immortal nor do they regenerate.

Double the cost to 600d, or set it to 666d as that seems appropriate to their level of strength http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

At a mere 300d, I could see myself buying almost exclusively Taken, equipping them with Dragon Helmet/Fire Scale to give them protection from fire, a reinvigoration item or two, and orders to bLast away. Hey, they have precision 13, which is unheard off in fire mages elsewhere, so why not use it to the fullest. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 22, 2004, 13:15: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:

The first is relying on luck for research. Yep. Good point. With luck you can get your research going, only 20 turns or so behind your neighbors. And it might be more than 20 turns, as this is a slow-out-of-the-gate nation....
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or it might be 2 turns, if you have a good pretender capable of rapidly taking out a few independent provinces, or you might have a magic-heavy pretender able to research quickly to construction 2 for quills. I freely admit that relying on independent researchers is a risk, but in my experience you are almost always guaranteed to run across some sort of independents with magic skills, so it is an acceptable risk.


The second point I'd like to address:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
I must say that 300 gold immortal mages with high armour, hitpoints, morale, magic resitance, precision, AND magic paths does seem a bit over the top and open to REAL abuse, but let us see. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hard to refute! However, I'd still say that Niefel Jarls are far more powerful. Breakdown

NJ Taken Analysis
sz 5 2 no trample for T
hp 72 30 NJ can take more dg
pro 15 26 T have heavy armor
mor 15 15 tie
mr 18 15 NJ win self confidence
enc 4 0 T are undead
st 25 15 Big win to NJ
att 12 13 Slight edge to T
def 16 13 Makes up for the armor?
prec 12 13 Slight edge to T
mv 3/14 2/14 Strategic edge to NJ

NJ has quickness for X2 spells/attacks, huge ice cloud, an extra trample attack, fire 3, and is sacred (sacred increases cost by 50%).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Decreases (which is your point), not increases, and the NJ cannot trample, but I am nitpicking here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


T has minimum regen, is immortal, fire 4, and unholy 3. It has been argued that the unholy 3 is no help, and in the test games it hasn't. The T's armor may be too heavy; it certainly adds fatigue to their spell casting, providing a real boundary there.

I'd say that the NJ beats out the Taken overall, and that if it wasn't sacred it would cost about 375 gold and 40 res. The Taken's cost of 350 gold and 35 res seems in line--or slightly high. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And I would still say that Fire 4 beats water 3/death 2 on the battlefield most days (well, except against fire resistant creatures). I tend to discount the strength on a NJ, as he is never intended to be in close combat, and the strategic movement of 3 is seldom useful except when flying. (At which time it is very useful, of course)

I don't think defense 16 vs 13 makes up for protection 15 vs 26 - but that is mainly because the greatest physical threat to NJ's are arrows and bolts rather than melee. On the other hand, the NJ's have shields, which help immensely against archery, and I don't know if your Taken have.

The sacred vs. non-sacred is a very good point. I thought your Taken were sacred as well, but apparently I am mistaken.

As for regeneration, you stated earlier that it was regen(10). In my experience, that is not minimal regeneration, but extremely useful regeneration, especially when a unit is already very hard to damage. With a protection of approximately 26 (modified by whatever equipment you choose to put on the Taken to reduce encumbrance while maintaining protection), it will take a lot of work to do even ten points of damage per round.

The sticking point to me remains the immortality. It is the thing that both wards your commanders against long-term afflictions, means that you are very likely to have them around for a long, long, time, no matter what the enemy throws against you (with correspondingly high survivability in the hall of fame), AND means that you can use a bunch of good commanders in suicidal defense actions, knowing they are ready to fight again next round.

As far as I remember, only one other recruitable unit has immortality (the Vanaheim Fay boar), and immortality, being one of the rarest modifiers, and one of the few that cannot be picked up elsewhere is priced accordingly: The Fay boar costs 120 gold.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Other expensive commanders in the near price range of 350 gold for comparison purposes:

NON-SACRED: Machacka Black Sorceror (250), Jotun Skratti and Gygja (250), Abysian Warlock (260), R'lyeh Starspawn (280), Atlantian King of the Deep (290), Pangaean Pandaemoniac (320) and Pan (350)

SACRED: Vanaheim Vanadrott (380), Pythium Arch Theurh (380), Man Tuatha Lord (390), Michtlan High Priest of the Sun (390), Vanaheim Hangadrott (400), Abysian Anathamant Dragon (400), Niefel Jarl (500)

[ February 23, 2004, 09:05: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[E. Albright]

I for one feel that all of this frivolous discussion regarding play balance for the Taken has led us away from far more troubling shortcomings in this mod.

Such as the absence of Toadkiller Dog. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Bossemanden]

Originally posted by E. Albright:
I for one feel that all of this frivolous discussion regarding play balance for the Taken has led us away from far more troubling shortcomings in this mod.

Such as the absence of Toadkiller Dog. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Nah the biggest play-balance issue is that the mod has as far as I can see not been made publicly accessible yet. All other considerations are minor in this respect and should be relegated to a later Version. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit: In other words: When will we see it?

[ February 23, 2004, 18:37: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

[moodgiesanta]

I have absolutely no idea what the Black Company is, but this still sounds very interesting.

[Bossemanden]

Its a series of books by Glen Cook.
Here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812521390/qid=1077569608/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_11_1/026-7734352-9106847) is a link to the first book. I´ve only finished the third at the moment, but they are very good.

Essentially the Black Company is a mercenary company. Theres nothing "Good" and nothing "Evil", but then again, maybe thats not quite true.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Peter et al--some darn good points. Four (counter) points:

1. Toadkiller Dog. Ok, it's going in as a hero. Tonight!

2. Regeneration 10 means regeneration of 10%, not 10 points. This means a Taken will regenerate 4 pnts/round of combat.

3. The immortality thing is valid. I *think* that they are only immortal inside their dominion, however. I'll test that. If they are immortal outside their domain, I might remove it and increase their regeneration to 20% instead.

4. Mod will be available at the end of this week. Look for it Thursday or Friday. I am finishing up an n'th game (first one to end-game) and working on minor play-balancing issues--ok, and some major ones as well. The Boomers are hard to make just right; and the Forvalaka look pretty weak compared to Werewolves, so I need to beef them up and make them much more expensive. I also just reread the first book, and need to redo the Limper and Shapeshifter--make the first less physically powerful, and the second more physically powerful.

One of the problems with the mod right now is the extremely primitive graphics I have employed. I am lacking in visual artistry. Meaning the .tga files are butt-ugly, but functional.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
3. The immortality thing is valid. I *think* that they are only immortal inside their dominion, however. I'll test that. If they are immortal outside their domain, I might remove it and increase their regeneration to 20% instead.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Immortality is an extremely valuable statistic, even though it only applies in your own domain. It makes the units ideal defenders, as they need not worry about any losses and can attack turn after turn, gaining HOF points just for dying. When you look at how much a fay boar costs compared to its statistics, you'd need to make an immortal mage with decent stats significantly more expensive than a Niefel Jarl. This is very true if they have good built in equipment as then it doesn't cost any gems to re-equip them.

[Kapnkirk]

For those of you new to the Black Company in the U.S., click here (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812521390/qid=1077599095/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-9164260-9068954). Easily my favorite book series. Cook's world is gritty and real. Not sterile or squeeky-clean like some.

Great Mod idea! I'm really looking forward to this one!

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
When you look at how much a fay boar costs compared to its statistics, ...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">WAY too much, IMO. But mainly because they are weak. High upkeep on a boar is strange, too.

BTW, you (UNB) might find the combat sim useful for balance-testing the mod; it's much faster than doing it in-game. It can import mod (.dm) files, though I never really documented that feature.

The command is (assuming your mod is in black_company.dm):

java Converter black_company.dm

The output is creatures_black_company.txt and unittypes_black_company.txt, the contents of which you can copy to creatures.txt and unittypes.txt in the data folder.

It only rips the basic stuff right now (not ethereality, elemental resistances, and etc), but it saves some time. Maybe I'll finish that functionality tomorrow (add regen, awe, etc).

-Cherry

[ February 24, 2004, 07:25: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Thanks Cherry!

[velk]

I am forced to point out that the taken are dominated mages, they are neither undead nor immortal.

Even the most immortal-like of the lot of them, the limper, does not escape even remotely unscathed from his apparent deaths.

I know some things can't be modded at the moment, but I think a life-after-death type effect could be good for that.

On a related note, the howler should probably have a forge bonus given his tendencies toward magic carpet construction.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Good points Velk. The Taken are not undead, nor immortal, but they are undying and so close to immortal that even when they were defeated 400 years before the beginning of the first book, they were imprisoned instead of killed/destroyed.

If there is no way to kill them, then they are de facto, and for the purposes of the game, immortal....

However, I have finally agreed with Peter and the others who have argued that immortality throws the game balance off, and changed it so the regular Taken units are a little tougher but no longer immortal. They are more along the lines of Bane Lords now, instead of Wraiths. Essentially Bane Lords with some magic levels, and regeneration. The hero Taken like the Limper are still immortal, as they should be; but in the interests of play-balance I have relieved them of much of their armor. It's more thematic this way anyways!

Toadkiller dog, otoh, is darn near indestructible, but not immortal. And he likes to use arms as play-toys.

I am still making changes, but planning on making a play-balance Version available Thursday or Friday.

After all this talk, I hope nobody is disappointed....

[Kozi]

One thing though. Its 'Shapeshifter', not Shapechanger. You could consider adding a special magic item to represent his staff, that superthin elongated female form. No idea what it does, though.

And don't forget the other taken:

The Faceless Man - Hey, no icon needed!
Moonbiter - Immensely Strong
NightCrawler - Had some good infantry, remember Queens Bridge...
Stormbringer -
The Hanged Man -
One other who I cannot remember.

[Kozi]

Oh, and if Toadkiller Dog goes in, you gotta add Tracker. Can you make him a moron if Toadkiller Dog (Got to use his whole name!) is not in the same territory? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

He'd also need his special bow & arrows...

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I sent the mod to Illwinter as an Incomplete or Not Serious Mod. Hopefully they will post it for download soon.

Recent Changes:
--no more enlistable Taken
--got rid of Soulgatherers
--national summonings: Behemoth, Wraith Lord
--5 hero Taken Units
--Toadkiller Dog is not yet working
--new unit Black General (toned down Generic Taken)
--new unit Witch Men, powerful in their breadth, wise and experienced, spiteful and cruel, rainbow mages with curse shields (Goblin, One Eye, Silent, Tom Tom, etc.)
--Limper Infantry made more expensive
--decreased most units' armor, including the Taken heroes
--I finally got the Boomers right, I think

I have to thank everyone for their input. I added/changed a lot because you guys made so much sense. Hopefully I'll get a lot more suggestions with the Mod finally released.

Ideas for the next Version:
--national summons succubus
--new weapon poisoned crossbows
--new weapon poisoned short swords
--new unit Black Skirmisher with poisoned crossbows, poisoned short swords, and chain mail.

Thanks!

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

The Black Company Mod is available for download. It is blackempire.zip

[Sindai]

Moonbiter - Immensely Strong<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was Bonegnasher. Moonbiter died before Cook gave any real distinguishing characteristics about him, IIRC.

[ February 27, 2004, 00:32: Message edited by: Sindai ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Thumbs up for the nice work. Still a lot of work to be done, but you are obviously getting there.

Since the Black General is now described as being basically a more powerful Black Captain, he should probably no longer be marked as undead.

The Black Witch is definitely underpriced at 200 gold. With 8 magic picks, FAWEDDN?, 15 MR, 10 basic precision, 10/10/10 st/at/def, and a built in Shield of the Accursed that gives her a basic 16 def, 4 prot (+earth bonus) she is the most accomplished magician that can be recruited in any race bar none. No one else even gets close.

Going by the modding guidelines (http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/modinstructions.html), we notice that her basic stats probably makes for a 40g (no leadership, but all her stats are above average), with the Shield of the Accursed, a greater magic item, boosting it by at least, say, 40g. (I would tend to put it much higher, but that might be overreacting, but it is a VERY nice item)

Regarding magic, there is 1/8 chance that she will have 3D and 5 L1 paths, 5/8 chance that she will have 2D, a second L2 path, and 4 L1 paths, and 2/8 chance that she will have 2D and 6 L1 paths. The modding guidelines provide some useful pointers for magic cost:

Avg. Magic Cost: 1/8 * (150+20+4*10) + 5/8 * (90+60+4*10) + 2/8 * (90+20+4*10) = 182.5

So, a better price for her skills would probably be 260g (~40+40+182.5)

----------

As expected, the Taken heroes are powerful beyond belief, but then, we knew that. Their power just about guarantees that this mod is for SP only. They are, in fact, more powerful than most pretender gods, being comparable in power to a Prince of Darkness given immortality, regeneration, and morale boosting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I am not sure which one is the most powerful one, though.

The Shapeshifter? Extremely high regeneration and hitpoints, exceptionally good skills, fire 2, nature 2, unholy 4, immortal, and fear(9)!

The Limper? Fire 6, Death 2, Unholy 4, standard(20), regenerating, immortal, a base precision of 15!? and fear(16)

The Howler? Air 4, Fire 4, Unholy 4, standard(20), regenerating, immortal, flying, good stats and HP, AND FEAR(19)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Bossemanden]

On the other hand the Limper-infantry, while powerfull is so slow as to be basically stationary. Played a game with the Black Empire (which I lost..curse them R´lyeh bastards) and I found that only by placing the Limper-inf at the extreme front (along with the reanimated fodder) and all others on hold and attack somewhere behind, could I get any real use out of these brutes.
They´ll probably do nice in a Thermopylae-style battle though.

Eventually I played with mostly Black inf and Forvalaka units. Backed up by a Black General, sometimes a Black Witch and/or Hero units.

Never got the Limper

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Peter--you just about read my mind. I have already made a lot of the adjustments you mention. Not the ones to The Taken, but I will ponder those (compared to the Tien Chi heroes, they don't look so bad. One of those suckers has 7 magic levels, a lot more HP, and flies....) I took unholy away from Everyone. It was nice for atmosphere, but it did nothing. Now I have no holy, unholy units at all. Much better--thematically, and truer to the books. Ermor will be a battle royale. Gotta find those neutral sages and priests early.

I took out most of the death magic, except on the Black Witches. "Battle" magic seems to be the theme. I will also tone down the fear effects; espec wrt the Taken.

Good comments on the Black Witches. I will revisit them. I will post the new Version of the mod tomorrow or Monday I think.

I have added two new units and one new commander. Very thematic. Stealthy assasins with new weapons: 1 shot, short range, poisoned crossbows; and poisoned short swords. First unit is Black Skirmishers. They are an elite anti-monster unit. Heavily armed, heavily armored, they exist to take care of magical beasties and sorcerors. Then there is the super elite Version: Black Takers. These super-troopers work under the new commander: the Black Sargent. The Black Sargent is a poor leader, stealthy, assassin. He leads small bands of Black Takers on assassination missions. These bands use pxbows, psswords, and full leather armor in order to be stealthy yet have a kick.

I am still working on the national summonings. Anybody have a clue?

[ February 29, 2004, 00:02: Message edited by: Uh-Nu-Buh ]

[Bossemanden]

Regarding national summons.
I still feel that my proposal regarding "normal" Taken as national summons bears thinking about.
In the books there was a clear qualitative difference between the "old" Taken (the Hero units) and your everyday two for a penny Taken. The new ones were under more direct control (Lady could "withdraw" their Taken status) and were generally both less powerfull and less skilled (Not or at least less true with Whisper).

A national Taken summons ala the Vampire count for Ulm Black Forest would be my proposal.

[ February 29, 2004, 00:35: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
Peter--you just about read my mind. I have already made a lot of the adjustments you mention. Not the ones to The Taken, but I will ponder those (compared to the Tien Chi heroes, they don't look so bad. One of those suckers has 7 magic levels, a lot more HP, and flies....)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Erhhmm. The immortal T'ien C'hi hero with most hitpoints has 11, that hardly qualifies as more hitpoints than the 50-80 hitpoint Taken. Of course, the T'ien C'hi hero does not regenerate, have a fear aura, or inspire morale either, and his precision is WAY lower than the outrageous base 15 you have used for several Taken. You will have to come up with better than that if you want to convince me, in the face of all evidence, that the Taken are not the most powerful units in the game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

...And there is a hell of a difference between FAWWSSS, which is max level 3 in a path, and AAAAFFFF and FFFFFFDD. Generally speaking, a mage is much more powerful from having high levels in single paths than low in multiple. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif



I took unholy away from Everyone. It was nice for atmosphere, but it did nothing. Now I have no holy, unholy units at all. Much better--thematically, and truer to the books.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds good!

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Originally posted by Bossemanden:
Regarding national summons.
I still feel that my proposal regarding "normal" Taken as national summons bears thinking about.
.
.
.
A national Taken summons ala the Vampire count for Ulm Black Forest would be my proposal. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree. One of the reasons I got rid of recruitable Taken was your idea and arguments. In fact, this is one of the two current national summons that I am trying to make happen. Right now, I have Summon Wraith Lord as a national summons; but, when I can get this stuff working, I intend to have "Awaken Undead Black General" which will be an experienced Black General who is still in the Dominator's mound.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Peter, I have only played Tien Chi once, but it was only a week ago. I hate to think I am whatever that thing is, the thing where you forget stuff all the time.

Anyways, I really thought that one hero had 110, not 11 hit points.... Oh well, I'm sure you are right. Ok, the Taken are Powerful!!! I was originally going for Tartarian Gates type units, then I thought--nah, that's too powerful, I will scale them back to super wraith lords. Heh heh.... This mod is supposed to be top-heavy for two reasons, my ideas on supplies, and to be true to the books. I keep nibbling away at these guys. Keep hitting me in the noggin with your points until they sink in.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
Peter, I have only played Tien Chi once, but it was only a week ago. I hate to think I am whatever that thing is, the thing where you forget stuff all the time.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am sure I had it on the tip of my... Whaddya call it.. thing in the mouth... Not teeth... A moment ago. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


Anyways, I really thought that one hero had 110, not 11 hit points.... Oh well, I'm sure you are right. Ok, the Taken are Powerful!!! I was originally going for Tartarian Gates type units, then I thought--nah, that's too powerful, I will scale them back to super wraith lords. Heh heh.... This mod is supposed to be top-heavy for two reasons, my ideas on supplies, and to be true to the books. I keep nibbling away at these guys. Keep hitting me in the noggin with your points until they sink in. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, so long as nobody plays MP with it, but it is just for fun and giggles, there is little reason to scale down the Taken. If you go by the books, they ARE more powerful than most pretender gods in Dominions 2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It is only if you want your mod to be used competitively that you should really attempt to scale it down.

[ February 29, 2004, 03:11: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[Kristoffer O]

I'm not sure of your intentions. If it's SP then it's OK, but if it's MP I reccomend taking a look at the following easily missed fact:

Black infantry has two javelins. This is very powerful at normal gold/resource cost. You could make new light javelins with lower dmg and give them two to represent a higher rate of fire.

Just got a hilarious picture in my mind. Imagine an olympics game champion with one spear in each hand running a couple of yards and throwing them at the same time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

Just got a hilarious picture in my mind. Imagine an olympics game champion with one spear in each hand running a couple of yards and throwing them at the same time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps give them precision 2?

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I do want this to be an MP nation. The Taken are slowly sliding into DomII acceptability. I compare them to Wraith Lords, Tartarian Gates dead pretenders, and Tarasques and do not find them that bad. It is part of this nation for them to have small numbers of very powerful units, just as some nations depend on masses and masses of incredibly cheap weak units (e.g. Ermor). I don't mind if it turns out they are the most powerful Heroes in the game, and in the top two tiers of the most powerful units. It is still possible for the mod to be balanced, the way it was designed.

Javelins cost res=1 I believe. This is in line with the cost of Black Infantry. Their armor is worse than militia, they have no shields, they get torn to shreds by missile fire, or even militia up close. They are pretty weak units really, with the one saving grace of two Javelins. I like the idea of scaling their damage back. I will look into a new Version of the Javelin. I see them going into battle with two slender javelins in one hand, and throwing them into the thick of battle. This is a weak unit, with the one saving grace of an oomph at the very beginning of most battles.

What do you guys think of the forvalaka and boomers?

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
I do want this to be an MP nation. The Taken are slowly sliding into DomII acceptability. I compare them to Wraith Lords,
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Okay, check the stats of the Taken again, will you? Wraith Lords have NOTHING on these guys - and Wraith Lords require Conjuration 7 and 40 deah gems, whereas a nation with luck 3 has a decent chance of getting a Taken within 10-15 rounds - and might get it on round 2.


Tartarian Gates dead pretenders, and Tarasques and do not find them that bad.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Conjuration 9. Not seen before round 25-30 (and usually only much later), and that is only if you go straight for conjuration with a magic heavy nation, and have mages specifically boosted to meet the path requirements or have researched construction as well.

[lonewolf]

I like the mod's flavour.

That said, I have a leetle wishlist:

1) The icons need transparent backgrounds; dark or very pale units are ok, but coloured backgrounds make it difficult to count troops - and look awful on the battlefield.

2) Lighter infantry grunts with only one javelin, weaker armour and appallingly cheap: the BC books have lots of 'fake Black Company' soldiers around to take the heat, get killed, etc... they don't have to be very tough - they only need black cloaks... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif maybe even camp followers (like slave units) to act as cannon fodder.

3) Still feel uneasy with forvalaka armies... If they were to be an assassin alternative to scouts (with berserk?), I'd feel better.

4) I got Soulcatcher on turn 2 as someone prophesied earlier. Hmmm. Still reasonably susceptible to missile fire, and hence balanced. But she looks like a Black Witch! Argh, could you please give her a nice dark background at least?

Thanks for giving it such a good try. I'm looking forward to Version 2... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by autolycus:

4) I got Soulcatcher on turn 2 as someone prophesied earlier. Hmmm. Still reasonably susceptible to missile fire, and hence balanced.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">....until you give here a L2 construction Shield of Valor, Robe of Missile Protection, or Amulet of Missile Protection http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (Probably go for the Shield. Any Black Witch can make such one)

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

Got a lot of changes porposed in the Last day or so. I'm going to apply them and get the new Version uploaded. Some of the changes

--witch doctor: costs more, shld of accursed-->totem shield.
--fear for all units dampened
--new stealth units
--forvalaka made a stealth unit
--assorted others

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I sent Illwinter the new Version of the Black Empire Mod. It should be in the Incomplete section, due to the graphics, soon. Some of the Major Changes:

2 new infantry units
forvalaka made stealthy assassins
1 new leader unit
1 new hero unit, Bonegnasher
3 new weapons
the Taken have been pared down in numerous ways:
--up to 2/3rd hit points gone
--some magic levels gone
--unholy priest powers gone
--armour reduced drastically
Black Witches cost more

Additionally, lots of small changes made for game balance--more or less ST, ATT, Cost in gold and resources, etc.

Enjoy!

[Kristoffer O]

It's up, but the zip has the same name so you wont noyice the difference unless you play it.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I will change the name of the Mod filename to reflect the Version, starting with the next upload. The next Version should be 1.0 (e.g. blackempirev1.zip). It should have compliant graphics, a mobile infantry unit, working national spells, and whatever changes people convince me need making.

It was mentioned a while back that the Mod could use a cheap militia type unit. That if the Black Infantry had it's javelins taken away and some lesser armor it would be extremely cheap and imitate the masses of faceless foreign and local troops that die in all the battles in the books. I thought about this, and decided that these foreign and local militia are already a part of the game via the independant militia and lt infantry that are available almost immediately from most conquered provinces. It struck me as redundant to add them.... I didn't want you to think I was ignoring the idea. I really did think about it. Thanks!

[liga]

Is that mod still downloadable ? Which name ?

Liga

[vigabrand]

might be kinda late now, but the second generation taken (i.e. whisper) could have been an option, they'd fill the gap between goblin/one eye/silent and the real taken. Don't forget the Shadowmasters too. All this Black Company talk brings a tear to my eye. For all you D&D players, the Black Company campaign world is set to be released this fall, I think by Green Ronin Games.

vig

[Cheezeninja]

hrmmm... how do you make more national heroes without simply replacing other ones? I can't find a tag that makes a unit a national hero, are you just using nations that have alot of hero's due to special dominions?