Caelum questions, both themes. [Archive]

fahdiz

March 2nd, 2004, 07:07 PM

I have to admit, I'm entranced by Caelum.

I think I'm starting to get the hang of how to use their armies more effectively - I've been having decent success having my archers fire at the closest enemy while having a gaggle of regular troops hold and then attack rearmost. And the distance from which they can attack provinces (and the fact that they can fly over tough provinces altogether, to head for a juicier target) is very, very nice.

However, I am sort of at a loss as to how to capitalize on Caelum's strengths mid-to-late game. Caelum's fighters are not physically very strong, nor well-protected in more temperate climates, nor is their morale high. Their only sacred non-commander units don't fly, and the Return of the Raptors theme doesn't even get Temple Guards...so obviously bless strategies are out of the question. Wingless, for a capitol-only unit, are worse than worthless.

With other nations, I'll occasionally stack higher-morale units in each squad to help with the morale checks...but with Caelum's low-morale regulars, and without good sacred units, this doesn't work very well - at least not in my limited experience.

Summons via the Conjuration path might work well, but those require relatively early research to get decent ones - and it's difficult to get researching when your SC pretender is out helping the weak Caelum armies eke out small victories. Wind Guide is outstanding, but with Storm Generals you are severely limited as to the number of Blizzard Warriors/standard archers you can bring to the party, if you want them to be at *all* protected by a line or two of foot troops on hold...so the benefit tends to be negated somewhat.

I have noticed that my success tends to be better with the Lady of Fortune than with other pretenders, but I still have some trouble taking even small provinces due to retreats (which, with flying units, are *immediate*) and to the low squad-size capabilities of Storm Generals (who I love, but dearly wish had the ability to take 50 troops rather than 25 with them at the start).

How do other Caelum players overcome Caelum's weaknesses and capitalize on their strengths? I think they're my favorite nation thus far (in terms of theme, and in the *theory* of how their armies should work) but I have some serious long-term viability problems using them.

Peter Ebbesen

March 2nd, 2004, 07:30 PM

Mammoths are your friends.

fahdiz

March 2nd, 2004, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
Mammoths are your friends. Mammoths are nice, but:

(1) Their morale is bloody awful, so they rout and mow down my paper-thin archers, and;
(2) Having even one of them under your commander negates your ability to attack faraway provinces at will.

Coincidentally, (2) is also the reason I don't field a whole lot of Temple Guards...aside from the fact that they are enormously expensive resource-wise for what they do, they take away my entire advantage of surprise and being able to pick and choose indie provinces to attack.

Do you find that Mammoths make up for Caelum's shortcomings in the mid-to-late game as well, or do you really only find them useful during early expansion?

Zurai

March 2nd, 2004, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Wingless, for a capitol-only unit, are worse than worthless. Check the morale on Wingless.

With other nations, I'll occasionally stack higher-morale units in each squad to help with the morale checks...but with Caelum's low-morale regulars, and without good sacred units, this doesn't work very well - at least not in my limited experience.Wingless + Mammoth.

How do other Caelum players overcome Caelum's weaknesses and capitalize on their strengths? I think they're my favorite nation thus far (in terms of theme, and in the *theory* of how their armies should work) but I have some serious long-term viability problems using them. Don't use fliers exclusively. That's just a losing proposition - as you've pointed out, they're too fragile. Add ground based units such as Mammoth + Wingless squads (I do a 1:2 ratio, usually 5 mammoths 10 wingless), independant archers, and screens of temple guards. Use pure flier units to harrass the enemy while your ground pounders attack the front lines.

I don't get your complaint about not being able to research; Caelum has the absolute cheapest high level mages in the game. High Seraphim are only 175 gold! Buy them! Lots of them! If you took a magic scale, just use the lower ones for researching, they're even more cost effective.

Gandalf Parker

March 2nd, 2004, 07:49 PM

If you are trying to use only Caelum troops then mid-late game will be bad for you. Learn to use the independents you can make. Add knights, barbarian chiefs, javelineers. Especially when you are outside the cold of your dominion.

SPeaking of which.. You have sneaky 3-lvl priests who can travel easily (flying). Learn to use them. Keep a ring of them hidden just outside the edges of your empire. PUSH the dominion.

Caelums advantage in mid-late game is having a great support/supply system. You can quickly reinforce troops, gems, magic items, slaves not to mention priests and mages.

The AI of Caelum is an irritant with its use of "Call of the Wind". You should be able to be a better, smarter irritant.

[ March 02, 2004, 17:50: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

March 2nd, 2004, 08:06 PM

Hum, I consider Caelum to be one of the best nations out there.

They have access to very synergetic paths, (Water and Air). Mammoth and Wingless go well with Storm/Mist/Arrow Fend.

You use your fliers as harrassers and raiders. Taking out provincea and driving up unrest, while crippling economy.

Mid game you should be using heavy summons in order to suppliment your armies (Sea Trolls, Spring Hawks).

Last but not least, always take Heart of Winter with your dominion with base Caelum, as you fight much better with Cold 3 enviroment. It is also a good idea to use Wolven Winter for large battles (multiple casts will drive down the temperature of a province).

Edit; Usually my initial armies start out with 3 Mammoths, 11 Wingless. Then I add in another Mammoth for every 4 Wingless and try to keep them at that ratio. I rarely have those types of squads break even taking heavy wingless losses, or losing a mammoth or two.

[ March 02, 2004, 18:16: Message edited by: Zen ]

fahdiz

March 2nd, 2004, 08:23 PM

Thanks for the replies, folks!

I wasn't so much complaining (although it certainly could have appeared that way, now that I reread my initial post) as I was saying "what am I doing wrong?"

Clearly, my thought that I was supposed to use my flyers as my "main army" was incorrect, and thanks to everyone who pointed out that Wingless and Mammoths make a mighty nice combo. I had neglected to notice the Wingless' sky-high morale.

A question, given your strategies listed below - do you usually build SC pretenders for Caelum, or more research/forging/summoning-oriented pretenders? It sounds like you might be able to do either, based on the use of Wingless/Mammoths and fliers as raiders & harassment.

Thank you all again for the advice - keep it coming if you have other interesting ideas to share! I really do appreciate it.

March 2nd, 2004, 08:32 PM

There are lots of ways to go with Caelum, due to their variety of strengths.

With only summons availiable to make into decent combatants, one common way is to focus on blood (since ID's make such great combatants).

Since Caelum is one of the few nations with access to a Natarajah, they are a common SC (especially since you already have Air and Water items covered for forging).

An important factor for using Caelum is getting a Wizard's Tower, if you plan on using alot of Iceclads (why wouldn't you?). So you can throw up towers quick and effectively every few provinces in order to churn them out. They gather easy and are easy to reinforce.

Norfleet

March 2nd, 2004, 08:51 PM

If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item. Combined with his already mediocre base encumberance of 3, your own cold 3 dominion will quickly put him face down in the dirt without cold resist.

fahdiz

March 2nd, 2004, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item. Combined with his already mediocre base encumberance of 3, your own cold 3 dominion will quickly put him face down in the dirt without cold resist. Good tip, thank you. Luckily I can get a Ring of Frost cranked out with my first mage. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 02, 2004, 20:28: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

fahdiz

March 2nd, 2004, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
There are lots of ways to go with Caelum, due to their variety of strengths.

With only summons availiable to make into decent combatants, one common way is to focus on blood (since ID's make such great combatants).

Since Caelum is one of the few nations with access to a Natarajah, they are a common SC (especially since you already have Air and Water items covered for forging).

An important factor for using Caelum is getting a Wizard's Tower, if you plan on using alot of Iceclads (why wouldn't you?). So you can throw up towers quick and effectively every few provinces in order to churn them out. They gather easy and are easy to reinforce. Great, Zen - thanks for the advice. Now off to the testing board... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

fahdiz

March 3rd, 2004, 12:15 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
With only summons availiable to make into decent combatants, one common way is to focus on blood (since ID's make such great combatants).Zen, do you tend to go Blood with the Return of the Raptors theme as well, or just with base Caelum? The differences in theme are very subtle (but significant), and I would think that RotR would go more with battlefield summons (because of the Harab Seraphs' Death/Earth levels) than with ritual summons. But I'm not sure, since I'm still learning soooo much about this game on a daily basis (only had the full Version since mid-February)...how do you usually build an RotR pretender?

By the way, I again want to thank everybody who has posted in this thread so far...I started a little "test scenario" based on this information at lunchtime and was very impressed with the difference! Kudos to you all for helping out a newbie like me, who can stare something in the face and still not realize exactly what's going on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 02, 2004, 23:01: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

March 3rd, 2004, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Zen, do you tend to go Blood with the Return of the Raptors theme as well, or just with base Caelum? The differences in theme are very subtle (but significant), and I would think that RotR would go more with battlefield summons (because of the Harab Seraphs' Death/Earth levels) than with ritual summons.To be quite honest, I dislike the RotR theme instensely. Other than losing the very powerful High Seraph, what you gain in the Harab Elder is little. You lose Seraphine but the Harab Elder isn't even standard able to cast Sermon of Courage. You have good forging paths, and can cast Summon Valkaries (with a Storm and Storm Power, or an item) but you don't have any sort of random pick so you're very locked into what you can do. You have access to alot of economically killing spells (blight and Hurricane) but they just don't feel good to me because of their heavy priest power loss.

The Raven Guard are good (especially if you plan on fighting outside your dominion, and cold) but I still rely on standard wingless/mammoth armies (now that temple guard are gone) and rely even more on indy HI and others with a little protection for land armies.

The basic strategy of having multiple raiding parties still stays the same; but you lose alot of magical power.

The pretender is even more important in RotR than in base Caelum, because of this. And I rely moreso on summons (especially mindless/high morale) than caleum has to, and this can leave you overall, weaker than base Caelum.

It doesn't change the playstyle of Caelum much, which in my opinion, makes for a less attractive theme since it doesn't change how you think about the nation.

For a Pretender I would look at either a VQ or a Son of Neifel for Blood type of situations, or something that would use Bane Lords, so something that can make Jade Armor and maybe astral.

[ March 03, 2004, 04:09: Message edited by: Zen ]

Graeme Dice

March 3rd, 2004, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Chazar:
- If your dominion strength is high anyway, then use your scales as well as the effect of the scales depend on the dominion strength as well: Order 2, Prod 2, Cold -3, Growth 2, Luck 1, Magic -1. Maybe Prod or Growth 3. No theme.A drain scale is a bad idea with Caelum. Mages are their strength, and they don't have access to communion.

I'm usually not sure who I am going to turn into my prophet. A mage who accompanies my front line troops? A seraphine for stealth? I think that having a prophet-strom general in raiding party is a bad idea, as my raiding parties usually wont return home...There's no reason to make a mage your prophet, since they can only cast one spell at a time anyways.

Endoperez

March 3rd, 2004, 04:24 PM

Graeme has a good point, but I don't know how big of an effect drain 1 has to the fatique costs of spells. Can anyone give some advice? I think it is something like 10% more fatique per spell cast, but that is more of a guess than anything else.

If Seraphines still have holy-3 in DomII then you should make one of them a prophet. Fanaticism is just wonderful. And having a prophet in raiding party might help if you don't have other way to get a flying priest who can cast Sermon of Courage or Fanaticism, but it is risky. Because of that, you should not send a prophet unless that raiding party is very important.

BtW, would Return of the Raptors be more interesting if they *started* the game with Call of the Winds? Or, if possible, a new spell 'Murder of Crows' that would double CotW in every way except that the birds in it would be crows? I have always liked the sound of that, and it seems thematically fitting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gandalf Parker

March 3rd, 2004, 04:44 PM

- Caelum fights well in the cold, so having a very high dominion strength (8-9) and using your pretender and prophet on the front lines to spread it seems reasonable to me.

Pros and Cons. That would be using your dominion offensively. Which is a perfectly good tactic but it does lessen your ability to use independents. There is also using your dominion defensively. Not forcing it outward but using it as a circle of powerful cold around the inner part of your empire. Slightly different tactic which allows for more use of independents.

- If your dominion strength is high anyway, then use your scales as well as the effect of the scales depend on the dominion strength as well: Order 2, Prod 2, Cold -3, Growth 2, Luck 1, Magic -1. Maybe Prod or Growth 3. No theme.

Magic -1? I think Caelum is a decent magic nation. Personally I would find it hard to play in a neg-magic domain. But again that use can depend on whether you plan to push your dominion in front of you or have it follow along behind you.

- I choose the 60-point Castle. Caelum troops are quick, so a strong fortification allows me to bring in helping troops from the outside in case of sieges, without lossing the accopanying temple/lab. (But I have to think about that wizard tower again...good point!)

For some nations the units they get, particularly commanders, can be very important. For those nations I seriously consider the 2 cheapest castles. Sometimes I need more castles to build commanders in than I need the resources pulled to one castle (I choose those when armored troops are the important item to build)

- This leaves no design points for magic, and since I need a strong front-line pretender I decided to take the Blue Dragon with no additional magic. (I agree that cold resistance is a must have for the caelum pretender!)

I know all my variations are point-costing and not much in giving any back. But just a point to consider. If you give some magic to the blue dragon (3 I think?) then you will be able to enter the water with it and cast some low-level water spells. This can be handy for getting a quick handle on some water.

True, this renders blessing useless, but my sneaky preachers serve other purposes anyway and I dont like those temple guards anyway. I'd rather build more mammoths and wingless if I want a non flying army.

Good logic.

I'm usually not sure who I am going to turn into my prophet. A mage who accompanies my front line troops? A seraphine for stealth? I think that having a prophet-strom general in raiding party is a bad idea, as my raiding parties usually wont return home...

The only reason I make a mage into a prophet is to get a single person able to do most of the site-searching that I feel is absolutely necessary. If Im not going for bless-effects then I have a bad habit of moving my prophet beyond the dominion too fast which makes his prophetness more harmful to him than good.

I dont like building non-caelum troops. As long as I manage to fight in the cold, I feel fine. Why hire other archers? Money is rarely a problem, and caelum archers require only 4 resources and are quite effective, so I dont want to build other archers. Protecting my archers is done with thos spire horn warriors.

Ahhh that supports much of your other decisions. Your logic is good on everything you are doing. Not how I would play Caelum but thats one of the great things about this game.

So far I have only battled against normal AI's, but i intend to start a game with local friends soon. What do you think, how will they beat me up?

People who like Caelum think they need to consider fire nations like Abyssia or Marignon as being their biggest worry. I find that Jotunheim gives me much more of a problem. Giants that dont mind my cold domain? On the other hand, Jotun can be a great neighbor if you ally.

fahdiz

March 3rd, 2004, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Endoperez:
BtW, would Return of the Raptors be more interesting if they *started* the game with Call of the Winds? Or, if possible, a new spell 'Murder of Crows' that would double CotW in every way except that the birds in it would be crows? I have always liked the sound of that, and it seems thematically fitting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Again, my experience is very limited...but it seems to me that the best way to make RotR more interesting is, as Zen said, to give it something which makes it more unique from the base Caelum theme and which would give you an entirely different style of play. To that effect, I would perhaps consider making Raven Guards sacred (since they are both elite and unique, it makes sense that they would be held in the highest regard by Raptor society) and also making Wingless sacred (and costing a bit more gold). Why Wingless? Because they are outcastes - and the Raptors have just returned to power after centuries of the same treatment. So they might see in Wingless an analogy of their past situation, and idealize it (and the weak shall become strong, etc.)

This would give RotR the effect of being a strong nation for bless effects (raiding parties with Fire 9? Sounds good to me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) - and I think everyone in this thread has agreed that base Caelum is not a nation one generally considers when thinking about bless strategies...so a modified RotR offers something substantially different and equally enjoyable. It would be somewhat like the flying Version of the Last of the Tuatha theme for Man. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On another note, I've tested out a number of scenarios Last night with base Caelum and have been very happy with the results. Thank you all again for your kind advice and help.

RadiantFleet

March 3rd, 2004, 05:31 PM

I'm a contrarian on Caleum. I typically play with
Dominion 7-8 Order 3 Prod 3 Growth 3 Drain 3 Cold 3
Fortified city and Vampire queen

Depending on my dominion I'll bump up the VQ to 4 death and 4 blood.

I find she does well getting you started, she's cold immune and immortal. Placing the vampires she attracts with mammoths and other caleum units really helps with the routing problems. I tend to aggressively push my dominion out using stealth preaching. I view my dominion as my most important weapon, with the cold enhancing my troops stats, keeping my pretender immortal, and hindering most other unit types. Jotheim can be a big problem, the cheap, fast, good priests tend to cancel out Ermor but Jotheim requires attacking in force to cut their supply lines. Frequently the AI chooses to place Jotheim as a retarded younger brother to Ermor, but when it chooses effect starting picks it can be quite competitive. Abysia is toast after the early game. I can kill its leaders, rendering summer lions ineffective. A mage attacking the rear, casting breath of winter can be devestating.

A big thing I find about Caleum is that you need to build, build, build. The units are cheap, you can amass huge nodal armies in your fortified cities (with give you the supplies to maintian them). An enemy attacks, you swarm him with every unit in range. Then you return to your supply base the next turn when your troops begin to starve. I usually expand my empire with an attack army composed of temple guards, ice clads for attacking the rear, and my pretender. I don't attack a province unless it has at least +1 dominion. Later in the game, I use an arch angel with the ark, and only temple guards set to hold and attack. The ark will destroy an army a hundred or more times bigger if you can stand your ground.

Anyway, some of my random ramblings on Caleum.

Arryn

March 3rd, 2004, 05:32 PM

Heh, an "Ark Angel" ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

RadiantFleet

March 3rd, 2004, 06:12 PM

Zot! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

fahdiz

March 3rd, 2004, 06:15 PM

Any comments (positive or negative, though hopefully constructive in either case http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) about my ideas for the Return of the Raptors theme?

Base Caelum appears to be a nation with a great amount of flexibility, given the very different strategies which have been mentioned in this thread already. This is great stuff; keep it coming. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

DLC

March 3rd, 2004, 06:25 PM

how do you kill abysia's leaders?
with the fire dome the mages that cast the spells die and you can't make a fire immunity ring with those picks or the standard caelum mages.

Fire summons are weak, blood summons on the other hand.

Endoperez

March 3rd, 2004, 06:32 PM

I think he meant that he can slaughter abysian mages in battle.

[ March 03, 2004, 16:33: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

ywl

March 3rd, 2004, 07:37 PM

A question: can iceclads fly in storm?

quantum_mechani

March 3rd, 2004, 07:40 PM

Speaking of Return of the Raptors, has anyone noticed they get seraphines in their PD forces? Is this a bug?

Nagot Gick Fel

March 3rd, 2004, 08:14 PM

Speaking of Seraphines, has anyone noticed how powerful Ceremonial Faith is with stealthy level 3 priests?

fahdiz

March 3rd, 2004, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by ywl:
A question: can iceclads fly in storm? A good question. I know Storm Guards and Storm Generals can, but I can fire up Dom II at lunch and test it with Iceclads.

[ March 03, 2004, 18:55: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

DLC

March 3rd, 2004, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by Endoperez:
I think he meant that he can slaughter abysian mages in battle. how? i haven't seen any good combat wind spells.

fahdiz

March 3rd, 2004, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by DLC:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Endoperez:
I think he meant that he can slaughter abysian mages in battle. how? i haven't seen any good combat wind spells. <hr /></blockquote>Well, Storm (and a couple of other air spells too, if I remember correctly) makes fire magic more difficult to use, as well as making projectiles of all kinds less accurate. So if you can take away the Abysian mages' ability to strike from afar, they can probably be taken down with flyers like Storm Generals and Storm Guards, who can fly even during a storm.

Also, rituals like Wolven Winter can be used to soften up a "hot" province before your armies even arrive, increasing Abysia's fatigue during the battle. Heck, the mage might pass out before the flyers even get there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This is just theory, though, as I haven't run into Abysia with Caelum yet.

[ March 03, 2004, 20:24: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Zurai

March 4th, 2004, 01:30 AM

Tuna-Fish

March 4th, 2004, 01:50 AM

Imo Caelum has only one, but very powerful advantage over other nations. High Seraphs.
3 air 2 water 1? Flying, and most importantly, costs only a fekking *175* in cash, they are perhaps the most powerful single mage in game, when cost is taken into account.

At their mind-bendingly low cost, you should be making hordes of them. They are one of the most effective, if not THE most effective, researchers one can buy from the start, can search for sites really quickly (althought at limited paths), can cast quickness in battle to make them even more effective, work well with storm and storm power and do a lot of nice overland spells.

As for good battle spells for caelum, first one to cast is always obviously quickness, then summon storm power (if you are fighting in storm) and then proceed with thunder strikes or orb lighnings. The spells seem weak? Remeber, after first turn you will be casting 2/turn, and your mages are really cheap, so you have lots of them. Caelian mages have one weakness though: most of the stuff can be canceled with lighning resistance, so even mechanical men can be real nasty.

As for slaughtering abysians, or anyhting else for that matter, try this once: Take a single high seraph, give him staff of storms and ring that gives lighning immunity. Then go to battle, alone or preferably with some units that have lightning immunity guarding him, and cast wrathful skies. Proceed to watch the enemy army fry, and leave your enemy wondering at the battle report where hundreds of his units died and your units show one living commander.

Will not work twice against a human though, but is guaranteed to bring any ai down every time. There are another Versions with at least fire and poison.

Chazar

March 4th, 2004, 02:51 AM

Umh, I'm pretty new to the game, but I really like Caelum (but not the awful Raptor Theme), but I still state my stratgey for Caleum here, since I would appreciate comments whether my thoughts are right or wrong:

- Caelum fights well in the cold, so having a very high dominion strength (8-9) and using your pretender and prophet on the front lines to spread it seems reasonable to me.

- If your dominion strength is high anyway, then use your scales as well as the effect of the scales depend on the dominion strength as well: Order 2, Prod 2, Cold -3, Growth 2, Luck 1, Magic -1. Maybe Prod or Growth 3. No theme.

- I choose the 60-point Castle. Caelum troops are quick, so a strong fortification allows me to bring in helping troops from the outside in case of sieges, without lossing the accopanying temple/lab. (But I have to think about that wizard tower again...good point!)

- This leaves no design points for magic, and since I need a strong front-line pretender I decided to take the Blue Dragon with no additional magic. (I agree that cold resistance is a must have for the caelum pretender!)

True, this renders blessing useless, but my sneaky preachers serve other purposes anyway and I dont like those temple guards anyway. I'd rather build more mammoths and wingless if I want a non flying army.

In addition, the mages of caelum are indeed really nice, so they must take care for item creation and spells. My Dragon's Breath and his fly ability allow a fast start and I rely on my good scales to produce more troops to compensate the lack of a useful spell casting pretender in mid or end game, so I really put my pretender in the front line in the beginning. Once he is crippled with afflictions, he just "takes care of the reinforcements", ie. sits just behind my front line to spread his dominion.

I dont know whether those extra-heros appear always or whether it depends on my luck scale set to 1, but so far I always obtained that raptor-seraphine skilled in Death-Magic which complements my magic neatly.

- If there is no underwater nation in play, I usually try to send a water 3 mage or my pretender with a mammoth to an oceanic province as early as possible. Building aquatic troops goes slowly, but its neat to build temples at your enemies coastline...

- I prioritize research in construction in order to produce owl quills (you have +3 air gems from the start) to compensate my drain scale. If I have that Death-Magic heroine and she found a death gem site so far, I will even go for that cool research boosting skull. Otherwise I go for Alteration (Mistform/GhostWolves are good to conquer underwater) or Evocation.

- I disagree with the "heart of winter"-dominon. I think those 50 points are more worth on growth, production or even order, since you can spread with sneaky preachers anyway.

I'm usually not sure who I am going to turn into my prophet. A mage who accompanies my front line troops? A seraphine for stealth? I think that having a prophet-strom general in raiding party is a bad idea, as my raiding parties usually wont return home...

I dont like building non-caelum troops. As long as I manage to fight in the cold, I feel fine. Why hire other archers? Money is rarely a problem, and caelum archers require only 4 resources and are quite effective, so I dont want to build other archers. Protecting my archers is done with thos spire horn warriors. Depending on my scouts, I use them either to stand fast and protect my archers (via guard commander, who is set on hold or fire if he has a bow already), or, if the enemy has mages or plenty of archers himself on "hold and attack archers/rear" as said before in this thread. I always adjust my army setup before each battle.

So far I have only battled against normal AI's, but i intend to start a game with local friends soon. What do you think, how will they beat me up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Endoperez

March 4th, 2004, 09:25 AM

You can destroy a human player's army multiple times, just use Wind Trapeze... Your scouts will find his armies, and he can't protect his every army... There are better strategies, though, and you might not like it if your enemy gets few Staves of Storms for himself.

Chazar

March 4th, 2004, 10:10 AM

Gosh, this is sooo interesting! I only hope my human 'enemies' dont read this thread... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

I have not really understood "storm" so far: How do I get into storms except from casting the battlefield spell storm?

I mean, sometimes there's snow (and I think i've seen rain) on the battlefield, but I always thought that this is a mere graphical nicety without effect. Did I miss something here? How do I make a weatherforecast then?

- As for RotR: I agree that Caelum should have a theme where blessing might be of more use. After all, they are angel-like beings anyway, so an entirely divine-based theme woulde be cool. And there's a lot to trade of: the cool mages, making mammoths unique to the captial, etc. But maybe I just dont know enough about the other nations.

I got the feeling that RotR was meant to give caelum a tainted, evil touch, but I think they are not evil enough...

- A question about the drain-scale: What is the big deal? I loose one research-point per mage, it increases MR by a half-point (what does a half-point mean by the way?). I'm not aware of the increased fatigue, but I recall that I've read somewhere something about that....

[ March 04, 2004, 08:21: Message edited by: Chazar ]

Endoperez

March 4th, 2004, 10:11 AM

A strategy I learned in my first Caelum mp game: those scouts can conquer any province wihtout provincial defence. I must have taken almost ten provinces in two turns, losing two scouts and a seraphine when some provinces had few defenders... Then I took the rest, got his castle, his sites, slaughtered his sages and did other small things like that. It was fun! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
If you do this, your enemy will surely buy some PD. Then you make some raiding parties and kill his PD, which would have slaughtered a scout but can't stand versus 20 Spire Horners! After that, he doesn' know what to do! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
And you want to have many fortresses, as between scouts, High Seraphs and Seraphines you just have too many places to produce commanders. Thanks for the Mausoleum hint, Gandalf! Imight actually use them again if that works...

Tuna-Fish

March 4th, 2004, 10:58 PM

Originally posted by Chazar:
I have not really understood "storm" so far: How do I get into storms except from casting the battlefield spell storm?

I mean, sometimes there's snow (and I think i've seen rain) on the battlefield, but I always thought that this is a mere graphical nicety without effect. Did I miss something here? How do I make a weatherforecast then?

- A question about the drain-scale: What is the big deal? I loose one research-point per mage, it increases MR by a half-point (what does a half-point mean by the way?). I'm not aware of the increased fatigue, but I recall that I've read somewhere something about that.... If one of your (or his/hers/its) commanders carries a staff of storms, there will be a storm.
Storm has 5 effects:
1. it halves all precision scores (air magic bonus is given afterwards, as is the bonuses given by eagle eyes and wind guide)
2. of all fired (ordinary) missiles, 50% are discarded on flight.
3. fire magic is harded to cast
4. normal flight is not possible.
5. Casting of storm power is allowed (very easy air spell that gives +1 in air magic for duration of battle)

There are better strategies, though, and you might not like it if your enemy gets few Staves of Storms for himself.
And how exactly would enemy having staff of storms hurt? I really can't figure out why.

March 4th, 2004, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by Tuna-Fish:
If one of your (or his/hers/its) commanders carries a staff of storms, there will be a storm.
Storm has 5 effects:
1. it halves all precision scores (air magic bonus is given afterwards, as is the bonuses given by eagle eyes and wind guide)
2. of all fired (ordinary) missiles, 50% are discarded on flight.
3. fire magic is harded to castHarder to cast = Double Fatigue

4. normal flight is not possible.
5. Casting of storm power is allowed (very easy air spell that gives +1 in air magic for duration of battle)
And how exactly would enemy having staff of storms hurt? I really can't figure out why. It could hurt if you had very little forces that could fight in a storm and primarily archers (Caelum archers are just as bad in storms as the rest).

Wrathful Skies + Storm is always bad unless you have Thunder Ward.

Certain summoned monsters and items give increased power during a storm.

If you don't plan on being a storm and any one of those things is counter to what your army is composed of, it can be bad for you if they have a storm.

Chazar

March 5th, 2004, 12:54 AM

Thanks for the advice on storms! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Is it generally speaking a necessity to go for construction with Caelum early on? So far I always did, but not that extensive, alteration/evocation are useful. But then again, these owl-quills might make it up again then, as I dont have too many mages around in battle in the beginning anyway...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Originally posted by Norfleet:
If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item.Ahem, I agreed with you there before, but then considering again, a high seraph can forge a "Ring of Frost" already on the second turn (provided that you dont use the Raptor theme). So the only drawback here is the lost misc-item slot, or did I miss something else? (I'm thinking about trading the blue dragon against a virtue pretender, among other changes...) Posted by fahdiz: I don't think they're supposed to be necessarily evil as much as they are desperate and rebellious.
Well, yes, but death/earth magic and no seraphines looks not that nice to me. I would just like to have a fallen-angel theme for caelum, but I'm not sure if it adds well to the other nations.

The raptor theme is just not appealing to me, but maybe shifting it more into rebellious-religious fanatics by adding more sacred troops would be real tempting choice as well, as we said here before...

[ March 04, 2004, 22:57: Message edited by: Chazar ]

fahdiz

March 5th, 2004, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by Chazar:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Posted by fahdiz: I don't think they're supposed to be necessarily evil as much as they are desperate and rebellious.
Well, yes, but death/earth magic and no seraphines looks not that nice to me. I would just like to have a fallen-angel theme for caelum, but I'm not sure if it adds well to the other nations.

The raptor theme is just not appealing to me, but maybe shifting it more into rebellious-religious fanatics by adding more sacred troops would be real tempting choice as well, as we said here before...<hr /></blockquote>Well, I didn't say they were nice, just not necessarily evil. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif "Desperately fanatic" and "embittered by being squeezed out of Caelian society for centuries" is definitely more how I saw it from reading the flavor text.

I'm becoming more and more fond of the sacred Raven Guard/sacred Wingless idea for Return of the Raptors. But I would be interested to see the opinions of the experts of the list - do you think such a change would present balance problems, or do you think there is a place for a "new RotR"? And do these changes even sound good or appropriate to you?

[ March 04, 2004, 23:11: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

March 5th, 2004, 01:39 AM

If I had to do what I say (Which is of course the hardest way to do it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'd more than likely make RotR a complete overhaul.

Change the Preference to Cold 1 or None (Depending on the points).

Remove Wingless, Remove Mammoths, Remove Spire Horn Warriors (Replaced with Raptors), Make Raven Guard Sacred. New unit Gryphon. Move one Air to Random on the Harab Elder and give him Holy 3. Starting Spell = Blight.

That would play much differently. With the removal of Cold preference but keeping the units Cold Resistance, you could take Cold if you wish; but you lose the 'free points' and makes you play quite a bit differently.

Those are just some things I was thinking for my own modifications; but hardly a general consensus.

Norfleet

March 5th, 2004, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by Chazar:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Norfleet:
If using a Nataraja SC, be warned that the Nataraja is not immune to the effects of your cold-3 dominion and will suffer large fatigue penalties when fighting in it, unless given a cold resistance item.Ahem, I agreed with you there before, but then considering again, a high seraph can forge a "Ring of Frost" already on the second turn (provided that you dont use the Raptor theme). So the only drawback here is the lost misc-item slot, or did I miss something else?<hr /></blockquote>Well, it *IS* the loss of your ONLY misc slot. There are other alternatives, though. And my intent wasn't to say that you SHOULDN'T use the Nataraja because of this, so much that you should be aware of the effect: It's particularly pronounced on the Nataraja, since he already comes with a rather poor base fatigue rating of 3. +2 for severe cold will turn it into an absolutely awful 5, so nose-down-in-the-dirt is very likely occurrence unless this is taken into account. The Virtue will be similarly affected, but her lighter base encumberance of 1 will mean that even a severe-cold penalized virtue will still have the endurance of an unaffected Nataraja, and she has two misc slots. The Blue Dragon isn't affected, but his encumberance is pretty bad anyway.

fahdiz

March 5th, 2004, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by Chazar:
- As for RotR: I agree that Caelum should have a theme where blessing might be of more use. After all, they are angel-like beings anyway, so an entirely divine-based theme woulde be cool. And there's a lot to trade of: the cool mages, making mammoths unique to the captial, etc. But maybe I just dont know enough about the other nations.

I got the feeling that RotR was meant to give caelum a tainted, evil touch, but I think they are not evil enough...I don't think they're supposed to be necessarily evil as much as they are desperate and rebellious.

fahdiz

March 5th, 2004, 03:09 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
If I had to do what I say (Which is of course the hardest way to do it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I'd more than likely make RotR a complete overhaul.

Change the Preference to Cold 1 or None (Depending on the points).

Remove Wingless, Remove Mammoths, Remove Spire Horn Warriors (Replaced with Raptors), Make Raven Guard Sacred. New unit Gryphon. Move one Air to Random on the Harab Elder and give him Holy 3. Starting Spell = Blight.

That would play much differently. With the removal of Cold preference but keeping the units Cold Resistance, you could take Cold if you wish; but you lose the 'free points' and makes you play quite a bit differently.

Those are just some things I was thinking for my own modifications; but hardly a general consensus. Would you give them Gryphon Riders like the Garnet Amazons have, or would it be just a riderless Gryphon with slightly different stats (like cold resistance, for one)?

Effectively this would turn RotR into a "groundless" nation, as Wingless + Mammoth is basically all Caelum has as far as ground troops, and RotR doesn't even get Temple Guards. Is it your intent that RotR *must* rely on independents and summons for ground forces? This would make early expansion, especially against strong indies, very difficult.

Certainly mages with Death (Harabs) give you quick and easy battlefield ground troops - but they don't pack the punch of Mammoths in any way, shape or form. Would the Gryphon replace the functionality of the Mammoth, in your mind?

March 5th, 2004, 03:19 AM

A base Gryphon. Not a rider. He is supposed to replace the Mammoth, similiar cost

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">125 Gold, XX Resources

Size 4
Hp 48 Str 21
Pro 10 Att 13
Mor 10 Def 13
MR 10 Pre 5
Enc 4 Mv 2/16

Cold Resistance 100
Animal
Flying

Claw, Bite</pre><hr /></blockquote>It would have to be balanced of course. But something that takes the place of a semi-decent unit. Could even lower the Morale more if it needed in order to simulate the low morale of the Mammoth, but flying units generally have a much greater chance to rout regardless. Have him eat horses would be fine too, +5 Supply Usage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 05, 2004, 01:21: Message edited by: Zen ]

fahdiz

March 5th, 2004, 03:28 AM

I see...so in this scenario, reanimated Skeletons/Soulless/etc. (either battlefield summons or ritual reanimations) + Gryphons = RotR's Version of Wingless + Mammoth, yes?

That would certainly force a different style of play. Having to rely on flying troops for more than just raiding, harrassment, and commander-killing would make things difficult...although the fact that you could play a bless strategy towards Raven Guards might help make up for some of the difference.

[ March 05, 2004, 01:30: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

March 5th, 2004, 03:34 AM

More or less. Just depends. Since the cost of the Harab Elder is so high, you couldn't be building much in the way of both Gryphons and Harab Elders.

You would have to rely on Storm Guards/Raven Guards + Gryphons in order to compete. The slower movement of the Gryphon wouldn't allow it quite the movement of most of Caelum troops (Letting them jump *everywhere*).

It would also force the smart use of Storm. You don't have nearly the battle power as base Caelum, since you don't have Quickness with your Orb Lighting, but lets you have a chance to get a 3rd Death (for say Terror) or a second Earth to be able to forge Earth Boots then Dwarven Hammer (something that Base Caelum has no chance for).

It is hard to fill the gap of the mammoths, as they are an incredible unit and very cost effective for use against indies and high amounts of elite units from opponents.

I'd have to be tested, but it certainly would make you think differently from base Caelum, but have the options where it is not considered 'totally useless'.

fahdiz

March 5th, 2004, 03:40 AM

Well, if you got a third Death on one of your Harab Elders you could also just scrounge up some Behemoths...and that's a heck of a Mammoth replacement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Arryn

March 5th, 2004, 06:42 AM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Well, if you got a third Death on one of your Harab EldersWhich is easily done with a Skull Staff.

Norfleet

March 5th, 2004, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
flying units generally have a much greater chance to rout regardless. Have him eat horses would be fine too, +5 Supply Usage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I haven't noticed that flying units have a tendency to rout that's greatly above that of ground units, although they are much more SUCCESSFUL at routing, as they simply disappear off the field: Perhaps the routing tendency is contributed due to the fact that many fliers are rather fragile and easily damaged, and you don't mass them quite as much because they're larger and more expensive units. Of course, it's also possible to deploy fliers in much larger squads without running into blockage problems, which helps to offset this. I haven't noticed any particularly extreme tendency of fliers to rout. It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above.

Arryn

March 5th, 2004, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above. I disagree (of course). Jotuns have better-than-average morale and tend to have decent staying power, as long as they're not massively swarmed, which would be a problem for any nation anyway.

Zurai

March 5th, 2004, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I haven't noticed any particularly extreme tendency of fliers to rout. It's far worse with Jotuns, they rout really easily due to a combination of all of the above. I very rarely see my Jotuns rout. Even their militia has 11 morale, and the other units all have at least that much, most have more. That combined with their high HP and extreme ease of routing the *enemy* by causing massive casualties means they rarely retreat, in my experience.

Norfleet

March 5th, 2004, 08:51 AM

Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm sure Arryn has run into this at some point before: Jotun militia, I've found, is notorious for its tendency to break and run from battles that it could have otherwise won. Jotuns generally are more susceptible to morale failure, despite their individually higher morale, for several reasons:

#1: Their high hitpoints mean that they frequently survive hits, which force a morale check for being injured.
#2: Their higher cost means you'll have less of them in the squad, so they don't have the same level of large-squad buffering.
#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans.
#4: Last but not least, large units running in terror are more noticeable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It's easier to gain a reputation for cowardice when all eyes are on you as you bravely run away. And when they run, they take a larger amount of fighting power with them.

So, as a general rule, given units of equal morale, say, a Jotun with morale 11, and humans with morale 11, the Jotuns are more likely to cut and run.

Zurai

March 5th, 2004, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif About all I hear about Jotun militia is that they have the best militia in the game. EDIT: And I can't believe you'd say they have a reputation for cowardice when compared to, say, Machaka or C'tis, whose militia have a reputation for running away before the fight even starts sometimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

I'm sure Arryn has run into this at some point before: Jotun militia, I've found, is notorious for its tendency to break and run from battles that it could have otherwise won.Jotunheim is my second favorite nation. I play it A LOT. It's much more common to see my 20 PD beat 60-80 attackers than it is to see them run from them (Barring fear units/spells, of course, or SC's etc that you can't depend on non-scripted solutions for).

#1: Their high hitpoints mean that they frequently survive hits, which force a morale check for being injured.Ah, I see, so dieing is preferable to living because it doesn't force a morale check. Gotcha.

#2: Their higher cost means you'll have less of them in the squad, so they don't have the same level of large-squad buffering.And their higher HP and STR means they kill more of the enemy than the enemy can kill of them. Enemies break VERY quickly when being faced with giants.

#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans.Which has nothing to do with morale.

#4: Last but not least, large units running in terror are more noticeable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It's easier to gain a reputation for cowardice when all eyes are on you as you bravely run away. And when they run, they take a larger amount of fighting power with them.I'll give you that point.

So, as a general rule, given units of equal morale, say, a Jotun with morale 11, and humans with morale 11, the Jotuns are more likely to cut and run. Not this one though. A human with morale 11 is EXACTLY as likely to run as a giant with morale 11. The giant, however, will do more damage and Last longer in a fight.

[ March 05, 2004, 07:10: Message edited by: Zurai ]

March 5th, 2004, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Zurai:

#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans. Which has nothing to do with morale.It does have something to do with morale. Since you force a morale check every time you are attacked. A square can only have up to 6 in size in it. Each attack lowers defense by 1, so there is a greater chance of an attack going through. Also each single large unit has more morale checks since more units can attack it per square. Though the primary reason that Giants seem to have poor morale (to the uninitiated) is because of their lower than average squad size which would give them a lower base morale than a similiar group of human milita (with much less survivability).

And in response to Fliers Routing, they rout much more not because of any inherent 'ability' but because of their deployment (when attacking they move in a circle around an area) which allows each and every unit to attack and be attacked (as opposed to front lines clashing). With the fragility of the units, lower average armor (even with Iceclad/SGuard) they tend to rout easier than other units of the same variety.

This is why losing a Holy3 priest by RotR is even more annoying.

[ March 05, 2004, 07:28: Message edited by: Zen ]

Liadran

March 5th, 2004, 03:20 PM

Thematically I like the way it is. Raptor ruling class and old prophecies and so on sound very nice. The distiction is quite enough at the moment (propably most of you disagree with me). Usable strategies differ well enough.

Graeme Dice

March 5th, 2004, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Liadran:
[QB]
Harab Seraph
Costs only 90 gold (10 gold less than base Caelum Seraph), 1 in earth, death and airNote that the only useful skill on the unit there is the 1 air for orb lightning. Everything else has no useful rituals, and giving a mage ironskin isn't that impressive.

Harab Elder
Costs 270 gold (compared to 175 of base Caelum), but is sacred (so has much lower upkeep than base Caelum HS). Gets 3 Air, 2 death and 1 earth and 2 holy. No randoms hurts a bit. Capital only unit.It actually doesn't have much lower upkeep, High eraphs are 11.7, Harab Elders are 9 per turn. The 1 earth is just as useless here as on the Harab Seraph.

Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme and have to rely much on their magic (and summons also).I doubt this. High seraphs are hard to beat for research.

Basically I like Raptors just the way they are, but it seems that most of the other people don't like them this way. Both Caelum themes are one my favourite themes in dom2. I'm willing to defend Raptors in a discussion here. I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.I _really_ doubt that RotR is anywhere near as effective as base Caelum. They have less magical versatility with no random picks, less research ability with harab seraphs having the same research ability as default Seraphs and only costing 10 less, and far more expensive mages. A mage that costs less than 200 can be bought one per turn from about turn 3 or 4 onwards. One that costs 270 is going to be every other turn at most. You also have far, far fewer of the harab elders than the high seraphs, since you can't build them at every fortress. Their magic skills also have little synergy. The only notable death/air skills are summon valkyries and death wind, both of which are quite high level. That plus the fact that a mage can only cast one spell at a time, no matter what skills they have, severely weakens them.

Nagot Gick Fel

March 5th, 2004, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Note that the only useful skill on the unit there is the 1 air for orb lightning. Everything else has no useful rituals, and giving a mage ironskin isn't that impressive.Ironskin is still good to have. You'll understand that the day someone casts Rain of Stones on your Seraph-heavy army.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the themeI doubt this. High seraphs are hard to beat for research.<hr /></blockquote>But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience.

Graeme Dice

March 5th, 2004, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Ironskin is still good to have. You'll understand that the day someone casts Rain of Stones on your Seraph-heavy army.[/QUOTE]

Only Vanheim, Arco, and Pythium if they get lucky, can reliably expect to be able to cast rain of stones, so you'll have to change your tactics for them. The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there. Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal. Especially when those seraphs will have likely cast mistform. Then there's also always murdering winter if we are talking about level 7 spells.

[qb]But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience. Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though, while the high seraph that you bought for the same price can also cast spring hawks, forge the air boosters and staff of storms, cast wrathful skies, etc. Plus, High seraphs are available in large numbers, unlike Harab Elders.

Chazar

March 5th, 2004, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by Liadran:
Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.
Cool, now this makes things interesting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.
Well, if you could play them in the same way, then it would be boring. I think a theme should always require a change in your strategies...

That said, I do not understand how the raptors manage so well with Cold 3, as the raptor-troops are not cold resistant, or is the encumbrance factor only important for mages and commanders?

So this forces you to drag your dominion behind rather than pushing it, doesnt it?

Nagot Gick Fel

March 5th, 2004, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Only Vanheim, Arco, and Pythium if they get lucky, can reliably expect to be able to cast rain of stones, so you'll have to change your tactics for them.Rain of Stones is an extreme exemple, there are several other ways to inflict hideous losses to a bunch of unprotected mages who would survive with just Ironskin.

The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there.That's an expensive way to protect a horde of 90 gp mages.

Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal.On that I agree. Just wanted to point out that Ironskin is still far from useless. 90 gp mages are expendable if need be, put a dozen close to the front line and try (Ironskin)(Summ. Storm Power)(Mistform)(Mirror Image)(Resist Lightning)(cast spells) someday, works wonders if you can get the timing right so the enemy troops close on your mages as soon as they've finished casting their buffs.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph...Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though<hr /></blockquote>That's another matter. The point was : "Raptors are a bit faster researchers", and you followed with "I doubt this".

Liadran

March 5th, 2004, 05:55 PM

First about research as Nagot Gick Fel said Harab Seraphs are faster researchers. If you (as is mostly done with Caelum) add Magic scale to that, then you're research is a bit faster than base Caelum can go with (base Caelum Seraph is also faster than High Seraph.

With Harab Seraphs you also get undead leadership. That's not to be forgotten with them. Also their paths are not useless if you think about the troops they are normally used with. Nagot already pointed out one good use for them. But if one says that only usefull spell is Orb Lightning then you haven't checked all the choices there is. That earth pick is very usefull for early expansion. If you go on item usage, then it's much more powerfull (they also can use Rain of Stones and also reserach it quite quickly). Ironskin as said is a very good spell (as are some others). It's not that uncommon to kill unarmoured mages.

Spring Hawks and etc rituals can be cast by Harab Elders as well as High Seraphs. For construction you can more easily get Dwarven Hammers. You only get 1 more air gem/turn, so not much more air rituals for base Caelum. Too much lighting use can backflash later in the game (can be defended against, and everyone will expect it). Storm is as effective for Raptors as for base Caelum. Quickness is missing and it takes some firepower away, but Raptors are not designed for combat lighting firepower as base Caelum is. They have more strengts elsewhere. Elders are Capital only which means that you have less of them, but Harab Seraphs used well are far from ineffective (they just are not lightning throwers). In longer games upkeep is quite important thing. Raptors have lower upkeep and it counts for quite much. Also the better aproach for no supply and no upkeep troops is an important matter. And the fact that Raptors are better at hurting enemy economy is very important.

When you start you can (with patrol) buy few Elders already. It also saves money if you consider other ways than Mammoths for early expansion.

Raptors synergy with their magic comes with their troops, not only with combat spells. Air, earth and death must all be used to their full effect. Earth can alone fix some of the flaws of Caelums' troops.

About that Dominion. Raptors can't push their dominion as effectively as base Caelum, meaning that where the figth is there most propably is not a Cold +3 province (and you don't have Wolven Winter for easy use).

Nagot Gick Fel

March 5th, 2004, 06:28 PM

Good Point about Rain of Stones, RotR itself can use it to good effect, because of Ironskin.

Otherwise I agree with Graeme and others, RotR is much weaker than vanilla. Although I'd be happy enough with it if I could get rid of the holy-2 on the Elders for, say 20 gold, and get the Seraphines back in exchange.

Zurai

March 5th, 2004, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
It does have something to do with morale.No it doesn't. A size one hobbit alone in a square gets attacked just as often as a size six pretender alone in a square. A size 4 giant with a size 1 or 2 companion isn't alone in a square.

I will say this: Jotun militia *might* rout where other militia would have *certainly* died. That's certainly true. I have never, ever heard that they have a "reputation for cowardice" though; as I said, all I have *ever* heard about Jotun militia is that they're by far the best.

March 5th, 2004, 08:44 PM

No. They don't. They get attacked less since you can put 6 hobbits in a square. And only 1 giant per square. Unless you have an attack that affects an entire square (I.E. Harvest Blade) the giant will get more attacks because each attack on a square doesn't go to the 'first unit' in the square, but is determined randomly.

This is why Vaetti and Huskarls fill the weakness of getting swarmed in Base and Utgard themes.

[ March 05, 2004, 18:47: Message edited by: Zen ]

Tuna-Fish

March 5th, 2004, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Liadran:

Too much lighting use can backflash later in the game (can be defended against, and everyone will expect it)

Can NOT be defended against. Thunder ward gives only 50% resistance nowadays, and thunder strike will happily still kill people trough it. orb lighning becomes very useless though, but a level-3 air mage is good enough with thunder strike.

March 5th, 2004, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by Liadran:
In longer games upkeep is quite important thing. Raptors have lower upkeep and it counts for quite much. Also the better aproach for no supply and no upkeep troops is an important matter. And the fact that Raptors are better at hurting enemy economy is very important. Raptors arn't specifically better at hurting enemy economy. Also upkeep is a factor for late game, but I feel more important is mage production/use. If upkeep is slightly higher and research slightly faster with Harab Seraphs than High Seraphs, but each of those High Seraphs as the game progresses becomes more functionally useful than Harab Seraphs, I would say the better is the High Seraph. Especially considering the variety of spells (from Water to Air) as well as manuverability to underwater (which RotR lacks) and that Harab Seraphs are much less of a factor in both raiding and 'fighting'.

Raptors synergy with their magic comes with their troops, not only with combat spells. Air, earth and death must all be used to their full effect. Earth can alone fix some of the flaws of Caelums' troops.A single Earth with no chance for random does not fix this flaw. It only produces a slightly more survivable mage in terms of melee, and slower fatiguing because they lack quickness.

About that Dominion. Raptors can't push their dominion as effectively as base Caelum, meaning that where the figth is there most propably is not a Cold +3 province (and you don't have Wolven Winter for easy use).And this is a detriment, since half of your units fight better in a Cold Dominion; but the other half do not. So you are trapped between being able to take advantage and being at the whim of enemy dominion. If you take a weaker dominion to save points for a pretender; you will be more easily pushed (especially since you can't preach up dominion well at all) around and your dominion countered. If you do sink the points into a high punishing dominion, your theme specific troops are at a disadvantage over base Caelum. Not to mention the economic impact of still being Cold3 Preference.

[ March 05, 2004, 19:23: Message edited by: Zen ]

Zurai

March 5th, 2004, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
No. They don't. They get attacked less since you can put 6 hobbits in a square. And only 1 giant per square.But what if there's only 1 hobbit in a square? Please for the love of God go back and read what I said. It is a VERY indirect factor on morale, one of quite a few. It is NOT a direct factor on morale in any sense of the word.

March 5th, 2004, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Zurai:
But what if there's only 1 hobbit in a square? Please for the love of God go back and read what I said. It is a VERY indirect factor on morale, one of quite a few. It is NOT a direct factor on morale in any sense of the word. I consider it direct, since the game isn't played with 1 unit vs 1 unit, but in a squad mentality.

If everything you say is only based on 1 unit specifics, then Giants are the best in no uncertain terms. But since the game is composed of assigned resources and gold on a per unit basis as well as size, then you can't simply ignore the entirety of squad size, unit size, standards and any number of things when saying "This is the best".

If your point is that morale as a system is unaffected by size thus Giants and Humans are no different based on simple number values, I don't think anyone was saying counter to this. What I do think was said is that there are alot of factors for which Giants are more prone to make morale checks than other units. Most of your argument has been 'read' and 'heard'. The reality within the game is that you have to take special consideration of Giants below a certain Squad size because of the factors of morale.

If you were *only* talking about PD, which every player pays the same cost per point of militia, then you are correct. I don't think anyone has said that Jotun PD isn't on top or near the top of the PD heap.

Zurai

March 5th, 2004, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
Most of your argument has been 'read' and 'heard'.Incorrect. NONE of my argument was "read" or "heard". ALL of my argument was in-game experience. Where the "read" and "heard" comes in is refuting Norfleet's incorrect statement "Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice?"

If you were *only* talking about PD, which every player pays the same cost per point of militia, then you are correct. I don't think anyone has said that Jotun PD isn't on top or near the top of the PD heap. Again, all my statements about Jotun PD were made to refute the extremely off-center statement from Norfleet.

March 5th, 2004, 10:45 PM

Norfleet didn't mention PD at all. Just Militia as an example based on Arryn's statement that the even the Militia have 11 Morale (Which is not entirely true, their base Morale is 10, while human militia is 8. Only the factor of home province and Domain change this).

I don't know about 'widely noted for their cowardice' but the issue that they have a tendancy to rout because of the other factors that were stated is by and large true.

[ March 05, 2004, 20:55: Message edited by: Zen ]

Liadran

March 6th, 2004, 02:19 AM

Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.

Lets first see what changes from base Caelum in RotR.

Mages:
Loses the best mage in game. Seraph costs more and is capital only. Raptors get Harab Seraph and Harab Elder.
Harab Seraph
Costs only 90 gold (10 gold less than base Caelum Seraph), 1 in earth, death and air
Harab Elder
Costs 270 gold (compared to 175 of base Caelum), but is sacred (so has much lower upkeep than base Caelum HS). Gets 3 Air, 2 death and 1 earth and 2 holy. No randoms hurts a bit. Capital only unit.

In the end Raptors lose much in water, some in air, much in randoms but they gain much in death and earth. It's must to learn how to use those magics effectively with air and their troops to compete.

Priests:
Raptors loses Seraphim (a very good priest as pointed) and gets 2 holy to their Elder. Lose much precious holy 3. Still they have access to Seraphim in PD (makes sense as Raptors are only the ruling society).

Troops:
Lose the (precious to many) only sacred unit Temple Guard. Get Raptor and the most amazing Ravens Guard. For Raptor strategies this is a very good thing. Ravens Guard used right (and Raptors can do it) is just amazing. They have the attack punch almost all of the Caelum troops miss.

Cold:
They lose some of the cold benefits.

Most of the main changes are here.

Thematically Raptors are a good theme in my opinion. Raptors coming back to rule the society through their magics (mainly death and earth here). They haven't got the cold resistance. But the people of Caelum do have it still. That's why changing the cold preference to 0 or 1 is not a good idea. Most of the people living in Caelum still prefer it and should have thier best income in cold +3. It would ruin the theme to lower it as their people still like it.

About strategies:

Raptors are not your HI country. If you prefer HI in every one of your strategies, then Raptors are not the country for you. For earlier expansion Raptors do have other keys than Mammoth/Wingless strategy. Using low level spells and archers backed up by h seraph and h elder or 2-3 h seraphs can take care of most of the independents (even knights and HI easily). Mammoth is expensive and that's why have high upkeep also. Mages can be recruited one / turn, so it's slower method, but high cost of mammoths makes that also slow.

Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme and have to rely much on their magic (and summons also). Also pretender choice is narrower than with base Caelum. You need to make sure that you can get something to raise your earth magic to get needed items and spells.

In the essence to get the best out of Raptors one can't just go with normal Caelum strategies. Getting the best out of earth and death is very important and using Raven's Guard and summons (mostly different than base Caelum) effectively.

About the changes proposed here:

Making Raven's Guard a sacred unit is ok but not necessary. I don't see Raptors as the sacred theme. They're fallen and not that sacred to me. Wingless sacred, hopely never.

Holy 3 to harab elder. This is more a death nation than a holy nation. Holy 3 is very good, but I wouldn't give it to Raptors. It would also make H Elder to cost more, which is not a good idea for Raptors. Death and summon approach makes morele a bit lesser problem so one can go with only holy 2.

One air to random with H Elder is ok. But can very well go without. That random mostly makes them more powerfull.

Starting spell can be changed, no problem. But changing it to blight or call of the wind would make Raptors weaker. Thematically many spells are good. Wind Guide is just as ok.

Removing old units (other than Temple Guard) is not thematically a good idea. Doesn't fit the theme that well to lose units that still exist in your society. Othervise wouldn't care that much to lose Spirehorns to Raptors. Mammuth and Wingless or Gryphon idead are also ok. I don't use Mammoth that much with Raptors (as it's not that needed). Losing Mammoth might make people think about other strategies. Mostly the theme should be kept in mind in my opinion (and it's also a good one).

Basically I like Raptors just the way they are, but it seems that most of the other people don't like them this way. Both Caelum themes are one my favourite themes in dom2. I'm willing to defend Raptors in a discussion here. I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

Ask (or point out) what you want and I'll try to answer back as well as possible. Got a bit long this one.

Vodalian

March 6th, 2004, 02:56 AM

What do you think, should Return of the raptors be a seraph- based society with a raptor ruling class ( as it is now ) or an entirely raptor-based society? I think the latter is a better idea, and would thematically result in a clearer distinction between base and Rotr Caelum.

DLC

March 6th, 2004, 10:43 AM

Staff of storms is overpowered, way way to overpowered, not to mention it totally kills my abysian devil factory strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Liadran

March 6th, 2004, 11:42 AM

Raptors have more options initially (because of their magic choices) to hurt enemy economy than base Caelum, the increase is not that huge, but can be significant in a dedicated economy strike.

It's true that High Seraph are much better in late game than Harab Seraphs, and that lack of water gives a disadvantage in water provinces. But the research is better and that counts for much initially.

Single pick in earth does in fact negate weapon array flaw a little. In early expansion that counts for much. Items can increase it later. Base Caelum is not that efficient in their earth approach and that gives them a flaw.

Dominion can't be forgotten. But without Hearth of Winter and Seraphines you can't push your dominion that efficiently in border provinces. That means that it's not that cold there than in your inner lands. In inner lands you don't need that cold resistance that much. But this is hard point in playing Raptors. They are definitely weaker in cold approach.

About lightning defence. Everyone will expect lightning from Caelum and keep that in mind (at least veterans). Battlefield placement, items and spells can decrease effectiveness of lighting attacks (let's forget spells over 7th level). I know that Thunder Ward gives 50% resistance. But that is a defence. It's not immunity (I never said about making it useless), but a good defence. Reducing those damages by half (especially with Orb Lightning, one of the best lighting spells) is quite important, it takes some edge away from you. It really doesn't make air-3 mage useless, but reduces their effectiveness. Never rely too much on lighting even with base Caelum, have to have other approaches in mind also.

March 6th, 2004, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Liadran:
Raptors have more options initially (because of their magic choices) to hurt enemy economy than base Caelum, the increase is not that huge, but can be significant in a dedicated economy strike.
This doesn't give you any more gems to use per turn, so I don't see it as being an 'improvement' over base which has just as good of a spell in Hurricane.

It's true that High Seraph are much better in late game than Harab Seraphs, and that lack of water gives a disadvantage in water provinces. But the research is better and that counts for much initially.This may be playstyle. It's not much more research. It's not like going from Jotun base to Jotun Niefel.

Single pick in earth does in fact negate weapon array flaw a little. In early expansion that counts for much. Items can increase it later. Base Caelum is not that efficient in their earth approach and that gives them a flaw.I assume by this you mean earth boots that you would have to empower someone to forge, then go from there? That may be an option in SP, but not in MP. And that option is still open to Base Caelum because High Seraphs come with 1Random. Ironskin is still Alteration 3, so it's not *that* early of expansion. If they started with it, I could see it.

Dominion can't be forgotten. But without Hearth of Winter and Seraphines you can't push your dominion that efficiently in border provinces. That means that it's not that cold there than in your inner lands. In inner lands you don't need that cold resistance that much. But this is hard point in playing Raptors. They are definitely weaker in cold approach.If you plan on not having a decent dominion, you are regulating a high percentage of your provinces to heavy economic penalties, since Caelum has Cold3 Preference.

About lightning defence. Everyone will expect lightning from Caelum and keep that in mind (at least veterans). Battlefield placement, items and spells can decrease effectiveness of lighting attacks (let's forget spells over 7th level). I know that Thunder Ward gives 50% resistance. But that is a defence. It's not immunity (I never said about making it useless), but a good defence. Reducing those damages by half (especially with Orb Lightning, one of the best lighting spells) is quite important, it takes some edge away from you. It really doesn't make air-3 mage useless, but reduces their effectiveness. Never rely too much on lighting even with base Caelum, have to have other approaches in mind also. Uhm. That doesn't change anything. You can expect lightning and air elemental strikes all you want. It's not going to change that advantage. As Tuna stated, Thunder Strike hammers through 50% resistance just fine and Shock Wave works great. It's not as if your normal armies (or even summoned) are suddenly lightning resistant because you expect heavy lightning use or even have the mage type (air) to keep in your main armies. With the mobility of Caelum and Cloud Trapeze and the effectiveness of Wrathful Skies and Storm (still) you will have a hard time convincing me that suddenly you are going to have a Air Mage with gems ready for Thunder Ward in every province. It also doesn't stop Phantasmal units (Wolves and Armies) with use from Air. And the Spell AI is smart enough to switch it after your scripted spells.

And if you are talking about magekiller combatants geared towards resistances, most of your opponents are smart enough to pick up at least the resistances of the nation they are up against. So it wouldn't matter if you relied on Lightning or not.

If you enjoy and feel that RotR is great, that's fantastic, but with all the minor points that they take away from the base theme are not replaced and is nowhere near as versitile and thus in my mind weaker.

[ March 06, 2004, 10:14: Message edited by: Zen ]

Liadran

March 6th, 2004, 08:05 PM

Hurricane is a good spell for hurting enemy economy, but the problem is that it's just one spell. So it just takes Air gems. Death and Earth both can inflict similar results, which covers 3 different gems. That's why you have more gems in overall to use. Also in the situation when that one gem is not to be found well you still have 2 other choices to go with.

About research High Seraph has 8 research points. Two Harab Seraphs have 10 research points together (and cost only 5 gold more). If you take positive magic scale (quite usual with Caelum) you get double the benefit. Also experience counts for double. With Magic scale +3 (and no experience) High Seraph has 11 points and 2 Harab Seraphs have 16 research points. A difference of 2-5 (without experience) is quite an important difference as it's only for 175 to 180 gold. Multiply that with other reserachers and the difference is very huge. (Base Caelum with Seraphs can do the same with 200 gold) But as said they're later use is not that good as with High Seraphs (being the best mages in game).

In this thread it was said before that Raptors have a more narrow choices for valiable pretender. It's very important to make sure that you have a pretender that has at least 2 in earth. Othervise you are giving up much strenght in earth. That can also be made with base Caelum, but in average you have 3 mages having an earth pick when you have 24 mages. And you can't count on getting those when you need them. And Ironskin is for not much use in initial expansion (also as you said Alt3 is too high early), Alt2 is enough and that you can get very quickly when you prepare your armies (and possibly your pretender). You don't need the armor for your mages early, hurting them is more important.

I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice). The problem is that you don't have Seraphim pushing your cold dominion and can't have Heart of Winter. Scales of +3 don't come that fast and that's why your borders propably don't have it. Even with a very high dominion it's hard to manage.

I'm not saying that Air 3 is not effective. It's awesomely effective in all it's variability. Lightning Strike is almost as good without 50% res or with it. And having mages ready everywhere with air gems is not good. Never ever try to do that with any race, not a good idea. I'm saying that troop placements, unit choices and etc... are easier to make against a certain overused threat than a variable threat. Relying too much on one thing has the problem of guessability and with it defences. Mostly the effect of this comes in huge battles, which are quite an important decisive factor in many wars. That little edge just might be enough.

I like RotR very much, but propably I like the base Caelum more. It's true that many minor (and major) points have been taken away, but there are replacements. You just have to look for them. Raptors are definitely much harder to play than base Caelum and needs lot's of thinking. But the strengts are there. Where does they lose their versatility in your opinion Zen?

March 6th, 2004, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Liadran:
Hurricane is a good spell for hurting enemy economy, but the problem is that it's just one spell. So it just takes Air gems. Death and Earth both can inflict similar results, which covers 3 different gems. That's why you have more gems in overall to use. Also in the situation when that one gem is not to be found well you still have 2 other choices to go with.You have to search with these other gems, and I find with base Caelum, if you are using hurricane a bit; it's because you have nothing better you can forge/summon. The same could be said with the other two gem types.

About research High Seraph has 8 research points. Two Harab Seraphs have 10 research points together (and cost only 5 gold more). If you take positive magic scale (quite usual with Caelum) you get double the benefit. Also experience counts for double. With Magic scale +3 (and no experience) High Seraph has 11 points and 2 Harab Seraphs have 16 research points. A difference of 2-5 (without experience) is quite an important difference as it's only for 175 to 180 gold. Multiply that with other reserachers and the difference is very huge. (Base Caelum with Seraphs can do the same with 200 gold) But as said they're later use is not that good as with High Seraphs (being the best mages in game).This doesn't kick in until you have 2+ Fortresses, and with the cost of High Seraphs, more than likely you are recruiting 2 a turn of those as much as you would with Harab Seraphs (unless you are buying alot of mammoths). I never said that the research wasn't slightly better than base Caelum, but as I stated before the scope less of a variable, especially considering how I play Caelum.

In this thread it was said before that Raptors have a more narrow choices for valiable pretender. It's very important to make sure that you have a pretender that has at least 2 in earth. Othervise you are giving up much strenght in earth. That can also be made with base Caelum, but in average you have 3 mages having an earth pick when you have 24 mages. And you can't count on getting those when you need them. And Ironskin is for not much use in initial expansion (also as you said Alt3 is too high early), Alt2 is enough and that you can get very quickly when you prepare your armies (and possibly your pretender). You don't need the armor for your mages early, hurting them is more important.So if you are saying there are less choices and you 'have' to take a pretender with Earth 2, you are using the Pretender to do the majority of the work with your "Earth" which base Caelum can do just as easily. I'd say a good % of base caelum games start with a Natarajah with 3 Earth. So that 1 Earth isn't all it's cracked up to be. Base Caelum with Alt 2, is about twice as effective as RotR with Alt 2. As you should note.

I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice). The problem is that you don't have Seraphim pushing your cold dominion and can't have Heart of Winter. Scales of +3 don't come that fast and that's why your borders propably don't have it. Even with a very high dominion it's hard to manage.I haven't found it to be so. Like I said though that is entirely a playstyle issue. The significant gold impact of a lower dominion may be why some of your other arguments don't seem that much of an issue.

I'm not saying that Air 3 is not effective. It's awesomely effective in all it's variability. Lightning Strike is almost as good without 50% res or with it. And having mages ready everywhere with air gems is not good. Never ever try to do that with any race, not a good idea. I'm saying that troop placements, unit choices and etc... are easier to make against a certain overused threat than a variable threat. Relying too much on one thing has the problem of guessability and with it defences. Mostly the effect of this comes in huge battles, which are quite an important decisive factor in many wars. That little edge just might be enough.That's true, but that's true of Every nation/theme in the game, so I don't see why Lightning or Caelum is singled out.

I like RotR very much, but propably I like the base Caelum more. It's true that many minor (and major) points have been taken away, but there are replacements. You just have to look for them. Raptors are definitely much harder to play than base Caelum and needs lot's of thinking. But the strengts are there. Where does they lose their versatility in your opinion Zen? They lose the High Seraph = Water.
They lose the Seraphim = All things associated with a Base 3Holy Priest. This is especially significant with nations with temperature preference or units without ways to compensate for morale (I.E. Nature magic, Standards).
They lose the Temple Guard = The one recruitable unit of Caelum that isn't fragile. Work well with Water Magic.

They gain Harab Elder, Harab Seraph = Death Magic.
Death magic is not extremely versatile, but it can be very strong. The same can be said for Blood Magic.

The gain the Raven Guard = Non-Cold Protection based flying troop. I have had tremendous success with using Storm Guards and Iceclads in normal to heat temperatures. So these, while nice, don't offer me much as my thinking has been to adapted to using the Cold and so having a unit that doesn't lose protection in a normal/heat enviroment doesn't offer a solution to the fact that High Seraphs were the portion that gave the punch to an army. If I'm not using a heavy Cold Dominion I don't get as much gold, which means I can recruit less Raven Guard, which evens out more or less to the higher resource, but less gold Iceclads. In my experience 25 Raven Guard with 3 Harab Elders are less effective as 25 Iceclads with 3 High Seraphs in a normal enviroment even though the RotR costs more.

[ March 06, 2004, 20:04: Message edited by: Zen ]

Graeme Dice

March 7th, 2004, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by Liadran:
[QB]I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice).Dominion 6 is not a high dominion. Dominion 6 is just about the bare minimum for a race with no temperature preference. 7 is a good the minimum for a race with a temperature preference, and they should really have 8 or 9.

And having mages ready everywhere with air gems is not good. Never ever try to do that with any race, not a good idea.How do you plan to catch large amounts of flying/cloud trapezing mages?

Chazar

March 8th, 2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
In my experience 25 Raven Guard with 3 Harab Elders are less effective as 25 Iceclads with 3 High Seraphs in a normal enviroment even though the RotR costs more. How do you script the mages, or is the AI clever enough for spell-picking?

Psitticine

March 8th, 2004, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
How do you plan to catch large amounts of flying/cloud trapezing mages? Butterfly net? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

fahdiz

March 8th, 2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by Psitticine:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
How do you plan to catch large amounts of flying/cloud trapezing mages? Butterfly net? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>Heh. Which reminds me...how many Caelians fit on the head of a pin? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

ywl

March 8th, 2004, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Liadran:
[QB]I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice).Dominion 6 is not a high dominion. Dominion 6 is just about the bare minimum for a race with no temperature preference. 7 is a good the minimum for a race with a temperature preference, and they should really have 8 or 9.
<hr /></blockquote>I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number?

Nagot Gick Fel

March 8th, 2004, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by ywl:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Dominion 6 is not a high dominion. Dominion 6 is just about the bare minimum for a race with no temperature preference. 7 is a good the minimum for a race with a temperature preference, and they should really have 8 or 9.
I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number? <hr /></blockquote>Personal preference or different experiences? Myself I'd put the "bare minimum" at 3 for the standard nations, with 4-6 being customary. And 5 (6-9) for the extremes like Caelum or Abysia.

Norfleet

March 8th, 2004, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by ywl:
I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number? I think his number is a concern over being Dominion-killed by a higher-dominion player using a dominion-push strategy on a small map. On a larger map, being domkilled is somewhat less imminent, and you'll have more time to boost your dominion with mad temple building, since you'll have eonugh space to do it.

Also, dominion in friendly provinces provides a percentage gain in income equal to current dominion level, IIRC, and the stronger your dominion is in the province, the faster the scales tilt towards your preferred settings.

However, I've read in the past, but never really seen proven either way that low dominion may actually spread FASTER unopposed than high dominion and carpet out over the land at low levels before higher dominion does. This is unconfirmed, but either way, high dominion is much more stubborn and difficult to uproot without concerted effort, and leaves you less susceptible to dominion-kill by preaching. IIRC, a sufficiently high dominion can be impervious to preaching by low-level priests.

Nagot Gick Fel

March 8th, 2004, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ywl:
I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number? I think his number is a concern over being Dominion-killed by a higher-dominion player using a dominion-push strategy on a small map.<hr /></blockquote>In my experience it's nigh to impossible to dominion-kill a human player with a decent empire. You have to beat this player militarily before you can cancel his dominion, not the reverse.

PhilD

March 8th, 2004, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:

However, I've read in the past, but never really seen proven either way that low dominion may actually spread FASTER unopposed than high dominion and carpet out over the land at low levels before higher dominion does. This is unconfirmed, but either way, high dominion is much more stubborn and difficult to uproot without concerted effort, and leaves you less susceptible to dominion-kill by preaching. IIRC, a sufficiently high dominion can be impervious to preaching by low-level priests. As for the resistance to preaching: if you believe ceremony's document, the higher your dominion, the harder it is to preach out.

For low dominion spreading faster: your maximum dominion acts as a "container", and your dominion will only start spreading out when that container is full. So, the higher your maximum dominion, the longer it will take for this new container to fill and start spreading further.

Of course, a higher max dominion means each dominion source (temples, pretender, prophet; I believe Priests have different mechanisms) has a better chance of actually raising/spreading dominion, but at least in the early game, your pretender and prophet should be your main source of dominion, so the "small container" effect should work better.

(Note this is just speculation, I haven't done any systematic testing to support my thoughts)

Liadran

March 9th, 2004, 12:57 PM

Took some time to answer, lines been of quite a lot.

Dominion 6 is the min I take with Raptors even in a large map. As said here before dominion can be lower in large maps and different pretenders and strategies need different amounts of Dominion. It can't be said that certain dominion is always needed in Dom2. Different strategies have different needs.

About Cloud Trapezing mages and defence. It depends very much on nation, size of the map, turn number, the need for the defence and so on to tell a one tactic I would use. Cloud Trapazing mages are very effective (for both themes).

Mostly the gems go for summoning and items, but Hurricane has it's place. Also have to say that Decay for example is better than Hurricane. But they have their uses in a well prepared and dedicated economic strike.

Have to stop now. I'll post the end a bit later.

Liadran

March 10th, 2004, 02:35 AM

No more classes to teach anymore.

I agree Zen on the point that you don't have 2 fortresses from the start and you research according to your playstyle and strategy. That's why speed is not always the most important thing. Price, later use and etc. make variables and change things around quite often. No best style out there. And yes base Caelum is initially faster in research after you have to change away from Elders for some time, which is an important point to note also.

Pretender is only for few items, harab seraphs can do the rest of the work. I know that base Caelum has an earth 3 pretender (or 2 sometimes) quite often and can do the same. The point was more in the fact that mostly you only have a few earth Users in base Caelum and can't know when you'll get them. Empowering is just too expensive. Base Caelum is more effective with Alteration 2 according to firepower (both are as good in pretender part), Raptors are better in defence (firepower counts for more initially).
But a simple spell like Armor of Achilles (alt2) gives quite much power to your troops (cuts knights like butter in the first runs).

About income. In average Raptors have propably about 5% less income than base Caelum. But you'll propably end with a little lower unit upkeep which takes some of the edge back.

Caelum's lightning approach is not any different than the approach os some other nations (though not all). The same things can be said to other nations also. It was just the point not to rely too much on one thing.

About the changes:

Seraph is still left for some water entry (water increase item needs only water 1). But you still lose most of your water access (not too much left).

Losing the 3 holy priest is bad, but death magic takes some of it back as you'll end up having (most propably) quite a lot of high morale troops. But Caelum fliers get hurt for some as they're the ones needing those boosts.

I agree with you about the dead. Not teh most versatile. Very strong if used well. Reducing enemy economy and very strong summons (and a 2 random mage as your going with conjuration most propably), which do not eat (very important for Caelum) and cost anything.

Lose Temple Guards and gain Ravens Guard. Let's face it as you say Caelum fliers are very fragile (even Iceclad). Temple Guard has the best morale, is blessable, has Iceclads armor and weapons and better stats than Iceclad. They are just damn slow and yes water is very good with them. Ravens Guard on the contrary is the best offensive unit Caelum can get. They have the best damage and 2 attacks and a move of 3 (very important when comparing to Iceclad and Storm Guard) They just lack in defence. But fliers really need more punch than defence. Giving them even more offensive punch makes them much better than Iceclads. I agree on the point that their cost is quite the same in the end (Ravens's guard is easier to get, but cost more also giving possibly the option of taking lower productivity than +3). Harab mages can help them and the effect is there. Also Harabs use more battle summons quite often (depends on base strategy). But in raiding warfare that move of 3 gives the edge, 2 is just too slow quite often in my opinion. Propably you don't use 3 elders (one or two is enough). But the strategy is determined against the opposition in hand, not overally.