Epic 2.08 Game

[Norfleet]

I'm interested in organizing a 2.08 MP game. World map, my natural favorite: Possibly Marathon-style, non-stop, but definitely at least on a regular, long-duration schedule: Certainly no less than 4-5 hours a day. I'll be playing Ermor. All other nations currently available on FCFS basis.

Anyone interested?

[navrunner]

I am game.
Either Marignon or Pythium

[Norfleet]

Hey, it's you again. Weren't you in my Last game? Looking for a rematch, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Got any time preferences?

[ March 04, 2004, 02:17: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Hey, it's you again. Weren't you in my Last game?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nav probably was. I remember his Posts on the subject. Nav's a good fellow. I played in 2 of Zen's blitz games with him.

Nav, go get 'em! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[condors]

i would be interested in getting killed again depending on the time frame

4pm-9pm est works for me not sure about anyone elses though

i would be ulm again

[dzbabi]

If you really start this, plz post a dayly Summary:)

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by vanedor:
Some folk really got too much time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And that's a bad thing? Anything worth doing is worth doing with excessive force, I always say. If you can't find and make the time to do something, clearly you don't feel it's worth doing at all. Sleep is entirely overrated, anyway. Don't you always find you wake up more tired than when you went to sleep in the first place? Isn't that really annoying? This is why I've taken to avoiding it entirely, and only do so when complete and utter mind-numbing boredom has set in.

Well, anyway, now all we need is for Mivayan to sign up again, and it'll be like Last time all over again. I bet Navrunner's itching for revenge, too.

[ March 04, 2004, 13:02: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Apep]

I would like to play too, however this would be my first mp game. If you all are willing to put up with a noob msg me. I would like to play as marignon or aros... the greek guys ^_^. I have to head out to class in about 40 mins, but I can play 5:30-10 mst today, and pretty much all day till 5:30-10 mst tommorrow.

[condors]

what are the exact settings of the game going to be? just so i know ahead of time i remember things where not what i expected Last time(not that it would have changed the game outcome even a little)

[AztraGoth]

Im game, live in CET zone but ill be able to game during the night anyway (seem like most ppl live over in N-America) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Hope to play as R'lyeh

WARNING: I´m also a noob http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Norfleet]

Settings are World map, your choice of either Torvak's shiny one or the original Illwinter, as they're compatible with each other:
Sites max, Indies 6, resources normal, rare randoms, rename enabled. This may vary if the guy who runs the server for me forgets anything.

I'll have the guy bring up the server in a few hours when I see him on.

Same place as Last game: kludgemush.com 10811.

Kickoff tomorrow ~1700 MST good for Apep? Game will then run from then to whenever the first guy is about ready to pass out, probably Condors, and then we'll just let the thing run on quickhost until the next day where we pick it up again.

That work for everyone?

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Game will then run from then to whenever the first guy is about ready to pass out, probably Condors<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because of his timezone, or because he's playing Ulm? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Because of his timezone, or because he's playing Ulm? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both. Plus he was the first to die Last game. Ulmies have no endurance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[condors]

yeah but we got the biggest hammers

[Saber Cherry]

You're not using the bugfix mod? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Oh, how I slave away for you people... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Norfleet]

There's a bugfix mod? What all does it fix?

[Saber Cherry]

Some units have incorrect natural protection, some have incorrect weapons (like the Ulm Black Forest commander), and some (like Rlyeh hybrids) were useless because they had no amdidextrity.

A lot have problems with their weapon order - most mounted units with lances, if given a magical shield, would drop their primary weapon.

These all get fixed. You can get it from Illwinter or my home page; it's quite small.

[Norfleet]

Is it a 2.08 mod?

[Saber Cherry]

It works correctly with 2.06 and 2.08.

I'd rename it to 2.081 but there are no additional changes, so...

[ March 04, 2004, 18:07: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Norfleet]

Eh. I'd use it, but something would probably go wrong. The server guy would probably forget to turn it on anyway, or something.

[Norfleet]

Okay, ladies! Server is up and now taking sign-in.

kludgemush.com 10811, as I said before. Let's these wagons in a circle!

[Apep]

Tommorow anytime sounds good, well till 1700 Mst since I have to work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . Is mostly everyone playing from North America?

[Norfleet]

Wait, so you PLAY then, or WORK then? You're confusing me now. Because that's when I was thinking we START.

[Apep]

Signed up as marignon. Will be back later to check out what is happening.

[Apep]

On march 5th i work at 5 mst- 10 PM. I am off in the morning. On March 4th (today) I have classes from 2-5 mst. After 5 PM mst for March 4th (today)I am off

[ March 04, 2004, 18:32: Message edited by: Apep ]

[Norfleet]

Grah. This may make scheduling the game somewhat more difficult, since you lack a consistent schedule. It's possible you won't be able to play as a result. What's your schedule look like for the 6th? If we postpone the kickoff to then, probably giving more people the opportunity to check it out, can you make it on a more regular schedule for the better part of the rest of the week or so?

[Apep]

Probably not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif . Between school and work im booked usually. I can do march 7th all day after 1 MST probably. And on March 6th I can do after 7pm MST. Was hoping game would be just one long session. Wait, just added this, I am usually okay for the mornings Monday wednesday and friday till 12 mst. And at night usally after 5 mst m-f unless I work or give therapy.

[ March 04, 2004, 18:38: Message edited by: Apep ]

[Norfleet]

Well, "one long session" is certainly a possibility: We did that Last game. But people started getting tired, cranky, and dropping after their first setback. Kids these days aren't what they used to be. In my day, it was nearly a given that kids would be able to outLast an old man like me, but nowadays they drop like flies, cut down by a combination of being raised in a Sloth-3 dominion and the increasingly endemic attention-span problems.

Whether or not you'll be able to attend the game, I suppose, depends on how well your schedule meshes up with anyone else's schedule.

So there's Apep's schedule. That okay with everyone, or do we push on with the more conventional after-1700, presumably when most normal day-people get back from work?

[ March 04, 2004, 18:47: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Apep]

Well whatever you decide just post the time and I will try to make it, If I cant Ill just try again next time. Thanks for trying to schedule the game for me though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I have to leave again but ill be checking Posts about 5mst today.

[mivayan]

Well, anyway, now all we need is for Mivayan to sign up again, and it'll be like Last time all over again. I bet Navrunner's itching for revenge, too. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Last time was fun, but 3 hours before first real fighting, and 9 hours or so before I started fighting ermor(you) was a bit too long for me.

Both. Plus he was the first to die Last game. Ulmies have no endurance. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Someone used fairy trod to come knocking on his door with a hundred dark vines (which after a mass protection and massive fireflies burned merrily) and a bunch of tarrasques (which regenerated more than they burned).

That was fun. for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Well, "one long session" is certainly a possibility: We did that Last game. But people started getting tired, cranky, and dropping after their first setback. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When I got my main army annihilated by your 7-in-all-magic-paths vampire queen with my reatreating commanders dying, it removed any hope of the game being over for a long long time. And I was getting a bit tired after 13 hours.

Hmm.. watching the replay I just now noticed that the vampire queen was not your pretender... how much wishing did you do in that game? Your gem income was almost silly high http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I wonder what I would have done if you spent all the gems on doom horrors...

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by mivayan:

Hmm.. watching the replay I just now noticed that the vampire queen was not your pretender... how much wishing did you do in that game? Your gem income was almost silly high http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif I wonder what I would have done if you spent all the gems on doom horrors... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I tried Doom Horrors earlier. They got wasted by Pythium. Clearly, Doom Horrors are not all they were cracked out to be, even though they totally own the AI and Indies.

[AztraGoth]

So....whats the final on the start off?

17:00(5:00 PM) MST? (Around 00:00 for me, gonna check it up)

[Saber Cherry]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I tried Doom Horrors earlier. They got wasted by Pythium. Clearly, Doom Horrors are not all they were cracked out to be, even though they totally own the AI and Indies. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Clearly? What did you send them against? They are not invincible, you know. And they are weak against afflictions, as are many units whose strength comes from their lifesteal ability. Did you give it a ring of regeneration and lucky amulet?

Note that if you're going to blow 100 pearls on a doom horror, spending 15 more gems on items is trivial. And empowering it in water (for quickness and breath of winter) or air (for mistform and mirror image) or fire (for fireshield) are virtually essential as well. A Pheonix Pyre'd 0-encumbrance life-stealing supercombattant is nearly invincible if Pheonix Pyre works. Only vulnerabilities would be... Drain Life spell and Curse.

[ March 04, 2004, 20:49: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by AztraGoth:
So....whats the final on the start off?

17:00(5:00 PM) MST? (Around 00:00 for me, gonna check it up) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, since it doesn't look like Apep will be able to make that, either....

Let's go with Condors Time: 1600 EST/1400 MST to 2100 EST/1900 MST then.

[AztraGoth]

Ok, and its still Tomorow? (Friday the 5th)

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Note that if you're going to blow 100 pearls on a doom horror, spending 15 more gems on items is trivial. And empowering it in water (for quickness and breath of winter) or air (for mistform and mirror image) or fire (for fireshield) are virtually essential as well. A Pheonix Pyre'd 0-encumbrance life-stealing supercombattant is nearly invincible if Pheonix Pyre works. Only vulnerabilities would be... Drain Life spell and Curse. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I considered those options.

Then I figured if I was gonna go totally balls-to-the-wall with expenses, I may as well go for broke. The Doom Horror project got shelved.

That, and the problem of massing doom horrors is that it basically assures that my lab is going to burn down within 3 turns! As Ermor, this is particularly painful.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by AztraGoth:
Ok, and its still Tomorow? (Friday the 5th) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Looks that way. Not everyone else has signed in yet, plus I have to go tell the server guy to pull Apep since he can't make it this round.

[Norfleet]

Okay, here's the current roll call:
Ermor: Me.
Ulm: Condors
R'lyeh: AztraGoth
Machaka: ?
Marignon: (dropped)Apep - scheduling incompatibility (better luck next time!)

Who's the mystery Machaka? Did Navrunner decide to go Machaka instead of Pyth or Marignon? Did somebody accidentally misclick, or do we have another player? I don't recall anyone calling Machaka.

[vanedor]

Some folk really got too much time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[navrunner]

I have not signed in yet, I will try to sign in as Marignon.
Hmmm . . . the server does not appear to be up.

[Norfleet]

Nuts. I'll have to crab at the server guy. It should probably be up in a few hours or so, he should be back by then.

[Norfleet]

Hmm. So if you weren't Machaka, who was? That's strange.

[Norfleet]

Okay, server should be back up, unless it crashes again. Try now.

[Norfleet]

Well, Navrunner is in as Marignon. Looking for some revenge against my undead hordes this time, eh?

We STILL don't know who the mystery Machakan is. If he doesn't announce his actual intent to be in the game sometime, I may have to drop him.

[AztraGoth]

I might not make it tonight on the game so could you kick me out in the meantime.

I got called away about 30 min ago and I dont know when ill be home http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

But if i DO make it I will join, Im not just sure yet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ March 05, 2004, 16:58: Message edited by: AztraGoth ]

[Tommo]

Sorry chaps, Machaka is me. Hope this isn't too late...

[Norfleet]

Welp, kickoff in about 3 hours and 15 minutes. We'll see if AztraGoth makes it back in before then.

[Norfleet]

Okay, so here's current roll call:

Ermor: Me.
Marignon: Navrunner
Machaka: Tommo
Ulm: Condors
R'lyeh: AztraGoth (currently dropped, may not make it in time)

We might be getting one more victim.

[Norfleet]

Okay, game launches in about 10 minutes. Any time now, the server guy will probably bang the map.

Current Roll Call:
Ermor: Me
Caelum: Tujin
Machaka: Tommo
Marignon: Navrunner
Ulm: Condors

Looks like AztraGoth couldn't make it this round, as there's been no word from him and he hasn't re-checked in.

Let the carnage begin!

[navrunner]

I am here. Not necessarily looking for revenge, I just want to help the undead rest in peace.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by navrunner:
I am here. Not necessarily looking for revenge, I just want to help the undead rest in peace. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heheh.

And we're off!

[Norfleet]

Hey, Tommo? What's the deal with the connect/disconnect thing? Connection problems?

[Tommo]

Is not accepting my password, will try recreating an unpassworded Pretender. Two secs...

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Tommo:
Is not accepting my password, will try recreating an unpassworded Pretender. Two secs... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's no-go. The game's already been created. You say you lost your password? That's no good. I'll have the server guy restart the game. This will take a few minutes. Everyone should rejoin once this is done.

[Norfleet]

Okay, game reset back to sign-in. Everyone sign in again, and this time, try not to lose your password!

[Tommo]

Am sure have the right password.... Someone might have submitted a Pretender over mine if thats possible. Will rejoin in a few mins. Sorr 'bout all this.

[Norfleet]

Yar. They ought to make it so this can't happen, and a password, either the correct one, or the master one, is required to overwrite an occupied slot, or at least it should print out the name of which human is in control so we can tell if it happens in advance.

[Norfleet]

You okay there, Tommo? Awfully long time for a turn 1 turn. Still alive there, or did you run into more technical difficulties?

[Tommo]

Can't apologise enough chaps but this time I'm getting an error saying it can't load the world map TGA file, have no idea why...

[navrunner]

You will need to download it from illwinter if you have not played on it before.

[ March 05, 2004, 20:43: Message edited by: navrunner ]

[Norfleet]

You didn't get the World map.

Get this file: Throw the .tga into your maps directory.

http://ilabws13.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/~mai03gex/world2.zip

It's the Torvakian World Map. It's compatible with the much more bloated Illwinter one, and I think it looks better, too.

[condors]

did anyone else get a stale turn?

or i just lucky, no big deal i will deal with it just wondering

[Norfleet]

Hmm. I wasn't aware it was possible to stale in a Quickhost game with no force-hosting.

[Norfleet]

Well, looks like Tommo is out for the day.

So we'll pick up again tomorrow, same time, this time without all the technical difficulties.

That good for everyone?

[navrunner]

I can start earlier since it is the weekend.

[ March 05, 2004, 23:18: Message edited by: navrunner ]

[condors]

works for me

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by navrunner:
What are we doing? Tommo took off. Do we play later? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, that looks like the plan. Guess we get to write today's AARs.

[Norfleet]

Well, here we go with day 2. Soon as everyone checks in, we can start the party.

[Norfleet]

Alrighty, 30 minutes till the officially scheduled time. Everyone ready to party?

[condors]

the waiting is the hardest part

[Norfleet]

I occupy my time in these really long turns between sessions by micromanaging everything that I might have allowed to slide slightly during regular play. Mostly those aesthetic details, like making sure the squads of my commanders are in proper order, etc.

[Norfleet]

Welp. It's time. Tommo hasn't checked in yet. He better not have gone AWOL. We'll give him about 15 minutes to show, then I'll declare him AWOL and write the server admin to bot him.

[Norfleet]

Well, it's been over 20 minutes now. Still no show. Looks like he's officially AWOL.

If nobody has any knowledge of his whereabouts, and no objections, I'll send in the bot call in 5 minutes.

[Norfleet]

And there's the buzzer. I do hereby declare that Tommo of Machaka is officially AWOL. Informing server op now.

[navrunner]

Norfleet is the winner again.

[Norfleet]

Yeah, them vampire queens are pretty mean, aren't they? You were doing pretty well in the water, but once on land, they're nearly unstoppable.

I'm curious, though: Your expansion seemed consistently sluggish throughout the game: Did Machaka entirely wall you off, even after he went AWOL and had to be botted?

[navrunner]

Yeah, The computer kept me bottled in since I was initially the path of least resistance, PD of 1 along the borders. By the time I took to the water everyone had left. So I concentrated my forces on attacking you.
How do you get the queens so high? Do you empower them in astral then start wishing?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by navrunner:
Yeah, The computer kept me bottled in since I was initially the path of least resistance, PD of 1 along the borders. By the time I took to the water everyone had left. So I concentrated my forces on attacking you.
How do you get the queens so high? Do you empower them in astral then start wishing? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup. Empower to Astral 5, wear items to total of +4 Astral to get the 9 astral needed, then start wishing. I'm surprised you weren't able to retain Dominion. Marignon is normally quite good at this. Had you been able to keep dominion in your provinces, combined with your early successes in pushing them back, I wouldn't have been able to safely deploy them. Did you take a low dominion to start? It looks that way.

[Norfleet]

One of the reasons I'm really fond of the VQ chassis is that it has a host of innate abilities plus is immortal, so it's far less likely that my 1000+ gem and 17 turn investment goes down the tubes in a lucky shot.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
[QB]Yup. Empower to Astral 5, wear items to total of +4 Astral to get the 9 astral needed, then start wishing.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm surprised that you wouldn't have used that many wishes for something more durable, since vampire queens are very low in hitpoints and are undead, so are extremely vulnerable late game. A single wither bones will kill one. For the number of gems to get a VQ to astral 5 alone you could have wished for 5 or 6 doom horrors.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I'm surprised that you wouldn't have used that many wishes for something more durable, since vampire queens are very low in hitpoints and are undead, so are extremely vulnerable late game. A single wither bones will kill one. For the number of gems to get a VQ to astral 5 alone you could have wished for 5 or 6 doom horrors. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A power-wished Vampire Queen with Gift of Health has maybe 100+ HP. That's no slouch. I favor the vampire queen because it has a huge collection of innate powers: It's innately ethereal, flying, and immortal. With innate etherealness, I don't have to cast Body Ethereal. With innate flying, I don't have to wear a flying item, or cast flight (and have it end up casting flight on my fodder instead of my SC). Since you only get 5 spells, anything that you can get innately is something you don't need to get off an item or a spell. And nothing grants immortality!

With immortality, as long as I stay within my dominion, you can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I'll just come back and pick up all my stuff. A Doom Horror, while perhaps more potent in base stats, lacks item slots, having only a measly 2-misc. As such, if I were to make such an expensive investment, I'd end up with an SC that has 1 hp, anyway, since I'd have to slap a Ritual of Returning on to protect my investment. Toughness instantly becomes irrelevant as a result. I could use throwaway, basic off-the-grill Doom Horrors, but Last game, Navrunner already demonstrated his ability to cope with those. Besides, Doom Horrors, if I try to mass produce them, have a maddening habit of causing my lab to explode, instantly grinding everything to a halt.

So, given that I'm selecting from immortal units, what's the immortal unit with the most special abilities?

That's right, Vampire Queens. You can't beat Flying+Ethereal on an immortal chassis.

[mivayan]

Such a vampire queen is fairly impossible to kill, but it does not really kill much against an army unless you cast soul drain or something. It did however cause my army to auto-rout after 50 turns which I did not plan for in the marathon game.

Did you successfully invade and wipe out your enemy Last game?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
[QB]I could use throwaway, basic off-the-grill Doom Horrors, but Last game, Navrunner already demonstrated his ability to cope with those. Besides, Doom Horrors, if I try to mass produce them, have a maddening habit of causing my lab to explode, instantly grinding everything to a halt.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I still can't imagine that you would find 10-15 or so doom horrors to be less useful than a single vampire queen, since that's the relative cost involved here.

That's right, Vampire Queens. You can't beat Flying+Ethereal on an immortal chassis.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure you can. Quickness + dust to dust, wither bones, drain life works wonders as well. Push your dominion so you only have to kill them once.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I still can't imagine that you would find 10-15 or so doom horrors to be less useful than a single vampire queen, since that's the relative cost involved here.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I ran a rather straightforward test: I started a game with two nations. On one, I produced 15 Doom Horrors. It took awhile. My lab exploded regularly. On the other, I produced the Uber-VQ.

Then I smashed them together in straight-out, head-to-head. The Vampire Queen won. I think that settles that question. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's right, Vampire Queens. You can't beat Flying+Ethereal on an immortal chassis.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure you can. Quickness + dust to dust, wither bones, drain life works wonders as well. Push your dominion so you only have to kill them once. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Navrunner did, in fact, attempt to use Wither Bones. It failed to have any appreciable effect, although it did do an excellent job mowing down fodder. It seemed like my VQ was actually IN the area affected, and went unharmed. I think it could be the combination of Etherealness, which is supposed to reduce the effectiveness of spells like Wither Bones, Mistform, Mirror Image, and Personal Luck. I lay them on pretty thick.

So the basic chassis isn't unstoppable....but can you find a BETTER one? What would you choose instead? I get flying, I get immortality, etherealness, flight, cold immunity and zero encumberance. This is on a standard 7-item slot chassis...with stealth!

Here's the list of stuff I like to have:
Mirror Image/Glamour, Mistform, Ethereal, Lucky, Flying, Quickness, low-to-no encumberance, a damage shield, immortality. Immunities are good, too.

The VQ gives me *4* of these, plus the cold, poison, and disease immunity. Some of these you simply can't get from any spells or items: No spell or item lowers a unit's encumberance, and encumberance is the severe bane of any aspiring SC, in my book: An SC needs to be like an energizer bunny: It keeps going, and going, and going. Note that any encumberance counts once quickened. An encumberance 4 unit will need no less than 8 points of reinvigoration per turn, a combination which will take at least two normal items or an artifact.

[Norfleet]

Yeah, was taking a fair number of provinces before he gave up after being unable to stop them.

And I wouldn't say they can't kill very much. With a good loadout, you're looking at an optimal 4+ kills a turn against weak opponents. Over 50 rounds of fighting, that's 200 kills. Solo. Obviously, this is against human-sized targets and not against Tarrasques, which will definitely require multiple hits to go down. I've killed pretty sizeable mobs with these. And if you can't be killed, you can keep killing until everyone is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD.