OT: Recommendations? [Archive]

fahdiz

March 9th, 2004, 08:47 PM

Well, I happened upon Dominions II by sheer chance...and now, several weeks later, I've been hooked and playing it every day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So I'm wondering if others on this forum can give me some recommendations of other relatively little-known, independently-produced/published, deep-as-heck, totally addictive games which I could try. Preferably, they'd be in a different genre than Dom II, as that's pretty much all I need on the fantasy-themed strategy/wargame front. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Any suggestions?

Teraswaerto

March 9th, 2004, 08:50 PM

The Ur-Quan Masters. A freeware remake of Star Control 2.

http://sc2.sourceforge.net/

[ March 09, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Kel

March 9th, 2004, 10:12 PM

King Of Dragon Pass

Don't recall a URL but it is probably the most *unique* style of game I have ever seen and addictive at the same time.

Not MP but an amazingly fun and unique SP game.

- Kel

fahdiz

March 9th, 2004, 10:18 PM

Thank you both! I'll be trying these out tonight, as well as several of the other demos for games published by Shrapnel (especially Space Empires IV and Coliseum).

Keep those suggestions coming, folks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 09, 2004, 20:23: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Saber Cherry

March 9th, 2004, 10:39 PM

Laser Squad Nemesis... multiplayer only, turn-based squad tactics. By the Xcom designers. I should mention that Xcom is better, but LSN is "independant" whereas Xcom was published by Microprose.

Not independant or PC-based (it's for Playstation) but I certainly recommend Xenogears, over any other game, for any system or genre. Don't confuse it with Xenosaga, which is not good.

And, of course, Stars! ...if you've never played it.

[ March 09, 2004, 20:41: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

fahdiz

March 9th, 2004, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
Laser Squad Nemesis... multiplayer only, turn-based squad tactics. By the Xcom designers. I should mention that Xcom is better, but LSN is "independant" whereas Xcom was published by Microprose.

Not independant or PC-based (it's for Playstation) but I certainly recommend Xenogears, over any other game, for any system or genre. Don't confuse it with Xenosaga, which is not good.

And, of course, Stars! ...if you've never played it. 1) I loved the XCom games (well, the first two, at least), and so I'll definitely give LSN a go.

2) I don't have a Playstation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

3) I haven't played Stars! What's it like, and where would I go to try it out?

Tals

March 10th, 2004, 12:52 AM

Stars! is a space conquest game. Turns are host based like Dominions 2 and although the two games are totally different they do somehow feel akin. Although Stars! is easier to get into but very difficult to master IMHO:)

Its pretty old hat now and no longer actively developed any further. The Devs started work on a sequel but somewhere along the way just as we were getting teasers they lost the plot and the project appears to have been shelved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif My interest in Stars! pretty much closed at that point.

Best reference for it is the multitude of web sites albeit dying that exist on the web (use Google) or in the NewsGroups

http://Groups.google.co.uk/Groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&group=rec.games.computer.stars

If memory serves me right the AI really wasn't to hot so it was much more a pbem game.

Still quite a loyal following, though nothing like a couple of years back.

Tals

alexti

March 10th, 2004, 01:15 AM

Nethack

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by alexti:
Nethack One of my all-time faves. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Bossemanden

March 10th, 2004, 01:29 AM

Well I would recomend the games in my sig. All (except Dominions II) are made by Paradox Entertainment. Another Swedish software company.

Europa Universalis 2. Play any country from 1419-1819. Rather deep diplomacy and lots of wars.

Hearts of Iron. WWII grand strategy game. More focus on war and technology, but engine is recognicable from EU2.

Victoria - An Empire under the sun. Play any country from 1836-1920. Unite Germany or Italy. Fight the Crimean war etc. Engine is developed from the former two games.

Of the three my favourite is EU2. Both the others are good as well.

Edit: Be prepared for rather steep learning curves and dont trust the manual, but seek answers from the Online FAQ or the forums. People behave much like on this forum (Thats supposed to be a positive endorsement http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

Edit2: Oh and by the way, the Pause/break button is your friend

[ March 09, 2004, 23:48: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

Taqwus

March 10th, 2004, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by Kel:
King Of Dragon Pass

Don't recall a URL but it is probably the most *unique* style of game I have ever seen and addictive at the same time.

Not MP but an amazingly fun and unique SP game.

- Kel Definitely. It's a weird cross between a role-playing game and a strategy game, without the usual micromanagement. In fact, being able to only initiate two major actions a turn prevents being bogged down in micromanagement...

Production company is A-Sharp, URL is http://www.a-sharp.com/kodp.

And remember to think like an Orlanthi, instead of min-maxing or adhering too much to modern sensibilities.

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 03:54 AM

Thanks again to everybody who posted! You folks are fantastic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I've actually read a bit about Europa Universalis 2 (I like a lot of the things Strategy First publishes, especially Kohan and Disciples II - while neither game is especially deep, they are intensely entertaining http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) and I've been itching to try it. Now I'll have to break down and do it.

Steep learning curves are not a deterrent to me. I actually love them, because I feel a sense of accomplishment when I finally learn to do something useful. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 10, 2004, 02:02: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Saber Cherry

March 10th, 2004, 04:10 AM

Stars!: http://www.crisium.com/stars/index.html

Originally posted by fahdiz:
2) I don't have a Playstation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
No problem. I bought one just so I could play Xenogears, and consider it a good bargain. PS's are cheaper now, too...

For reference, I didn't like Europa Universalis II (I was so disappointed after all the build-up). In the RTS genre, I consider Kohan (which you've played) much better. And Total Annihilation is still, IMO, the best RTS ever (especially multiplayer). If you enjoyed Kohan you should give it a spin... or Warlords Battlecry II, which is a more traditional RTS than TA or Kohan.

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
I've actually read a bit about Europa Universalis 2 (I like a lot of the things Strategy First publishes, especially Kohan and Disciples II - while neither game is especially deep, they are intensely entertaining http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) and I've been itching to try it. Now I'll have to break down and do it. EU2 should be available in the bargain bin, so try not to pay full price for it. Also be sure to check out the official EU2 forum *before* you play the game. Fair warning (and at the risk of incurring the wrath of the Paradox fanbois here) but EU2 is still, after seven patches, buggier than Dom 2 (some of the bugs are quite serious), and has a weaker AI than Dom. The game is very educational, if you're into history (I recommend buying a copy of EU1, for ~$6 in bargain bins, just for the excellent manual it has), but EU2 has a very weak and seriously-flawed AI if you're expecting any sort of challenge from the game.

A better Paradox game would be HOI with the latest CORE mod. HOI still has some fundamental AI flaws that are ingrained in the engine that no amount of modding has been able to fix, but HOI plays more "intelligently" than EU2 by far. The EU2 AI makes a lot of bad decisions (some truly stupendously stupid), and it's simply too easy to win against it.

Okay, Bosse, have at me ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 10, 2004, 02:12: Message edited by: Arryn ]

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by Saber Cherry:
For reference, I didn't like Europa Universalis II (I was so disappointed after all the build-up). In the RTS genre, I consider Kohan (which you've played) much better. And Total Annihilation is still, IMO, the best RTS ever (especially multiplayer). If you enjoyed Kohan you should give it a spin... or Warlords Battlecry II, which is a more traditional RTS than TA or Kohan. I love Kohan. Love it, love it, love it. One of my favorite RTSes - I enjoy it more than I did Total Annihilation. (Heresy, I know.) I can't wait for Kings of War.

I have and frequently play Warlords BC II. It's great! Unfortunately Warlords IV was a real letdown, coming off the greatness of Warlords III and then going years ahead to...IV. Hardly the update many thought it would be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

As far as realtime goes, in addition to Kohan, WBC II, Homeworld, and Age of Mythology, I'm somewhat a fan of the (now slightly long in the tooth) Majesty. I also really liked (and still play, on occasion) Sacrifice.

[ March 10, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
EU2 should be available in the bargain bin, so try not to pay full price for it.I try *never* to pay full price unless there are no other options. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I am a Bargain Bin Hunter of the Third Degree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thanks for your comments on the AI...I sure wish there was a demo available, so that I could see for myself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Norfleet

March 10th, 2004, 05:05 AM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
One of my favorite RTSes - I enjoy it more than I did Total Annihilation. (Heresy, I know.) I can't wait for Kings of War.Heretic! Witch! BURN HIM! BURN HIM!

Bossemanden

March 10th, 2004, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
EU2 should be available in the bargain bin, so try not to pay full price for it. Also be sure to check out the official EU2 forum *before* you play the game. Fair warning (and at the risk of incurring the wrath of the Paradox fanbois here) but EU2 is still, after seven patches, buggier than Dom 2 (some of the bugs are quite serious), and has a weaker AI than Dom. The game is very educational, if you're into history (I recommend buying a copy of EU1, for ~$6 in bargain bins, just for the excellent manual it has), but EU2 has a very weak and seriously-flawed AI if you're expecting any sort of challenge from the game.

A better Paradox game would be HOI with the latest CORE mod. HOI still has some fundamental AI flaws that are ingrained in the engine that no amount of modding has been able to fix, but HOI plays more "intelligently" than EU2 by far. The EU2 AI makes a lot of bad decisions (some truly stupendously stupid), and it's simply too easy to win against it.

Okay, Bosse, have at me ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I think that you are partially right in your criticism, but only partially. IMO the buggyness of EU2 is comparable to Dom2, though the Paradox crew has had a lot longer to fix it.

Comparing the AI for Dom2 and EU2 strikes me as unfair. Dom2 deals with disrcrete situations, that can be allowed to take unlimited calculation time. EU2 deals with fluid "real time" situations, in which limited calculation resources are available.
In HOI as in EU2 or Vicky the best results are often achieved by exploiting the fluidness of the situation (That is attacking where the enemy is weak). Often my feeling is that Im dealing with a somewhat slow human, that sometimes doesnt understand the "rules" too well.
In Dom2 you can with a high degree of probability determine beforehand where the AI will attack.
It is my belief that the Dom2 AI is much weaker than possibly the EU2 one and certainly the HOI and Vicky AI�s. What makes the Dom2 AI adequate is the simpler overall picture (turnbased vs. real time mainly) and the unlimited computing time.
On the other hand I will agree that the EU2 AI habit of stacking troops up in heaps and heaps when sieging forts is a big weakness.

In the end I see the strengths as more important and the weaknesses as less important than you do. The weaknesses are there to be sure, but there is a difference in viewpoint.

So no Im not gonna chew you out, but my conclusions differ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 06:09 AM

Originally posted by Bossemanden:
IMO the buggyness of EU2 is comparable to Dom2, though the Paradox crew has had a lot longer to fix it.Strategy First is much more interested in milking the EU engine for all the mileage they can get out of it than in having Paradox put out quality products, and/or address the fundamental bugs the engine has had for many years now. (On Sunday I was in a local Ebgames store and saw yet another, new, EU-engine game by Paradox, dealing with just France and England.) Strategy First/Paradox is to strategy gaming as Hasbro/WotC/TSR is to pen & paper gaming. Comparing the AI for Dom2 and EU2 strikes me as unfair. Dom2 deals with disrcrete situations, that can be allowed to take unlimited calculation time. EU2 deals with fluid "real time" situations, in which limited calculation resources are available.
{snip}
What makes the Dom2 AI adequate is the simpler overall picture (turnbased vs. real time mainly) and the unlimited computing time.
On the other hand I will agree that the EU2 AI habit of stacking troops up in heaps and heaps when sieging forts is a big weakness.We've debated this before and the time-slice argument simply does not hold water. If you slow down the time passage rate of EU/EU2/HOI to the slowest setting, which gives the AI plenty of time to think, it doesn't play any better than it does at normal or faster "turn" speeds. And EU2/HOI has no more provinces to deal with than Dom2 does when using very large maps. Couple with the fact that Dom2 has more complex unit interactions than EU2 does. Only HOI can approach the complexity of Dom2 unit interactions. And the HOI AI, while having more "work" to do each "turn", doesn't play "worse" than EU2, which is a simpler model. So explanations such as time available or model complexity simply do not wash for EU2. The EU-engine games simply suffer from an AI with weak internal algorithms, and no amount of excuses can alter that fact. The Dom2 engine isn't better because it has a "simpler" model. It's better because it's been coded to be better. It manages resources better, it evaluates the strategic situation better, and conducts combat better than Paradox's AI does in comparable circumstances (and yes, you can rig up comparable situations, despite EU-engined games being continuous-time).

Even more annoying in EU is not the brain-dead overstacking but the "mouse that roared" syndrome when some piddly little country will suddenly, for no discernable reason, declare war on a "superpower". I see this in Victoria too.

Peter Ebbesen

March 10th, 2004, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
We've debated this before and the time-slice argument simply does not hold water. If you slow down the time passage rate of EU/EU2/HOI to the slowest setting, which gives the AI plenty of time to think, it doesn't play any better than it does at normal or faster "turn" speeds.You seem to be deliberately missing the point.

As you probably well know, very few game AIs are written to scale their computing to the actual processor time on the target machine. Apart from the considerable efforts involved, it would lead to the AI playing differently on different computers. This is not desirable from a support point of view.

Rather, they are written such that certain algorithms are processed in a time frame that will likely not cause slow-down on the target machine at the default speed level. It is exactly the same AI algorithms that are executed whether you run slower or faster, but if your computer is below recommended specifications [or if there are particularly many units active, each having to be handled], going slower will make for a more fluid game, and likewise going faster will likely result in a more choppy game performance.

An alternative adaptive routine that adjusts to processing power is seldom used elsewhere than pathfinding (where extra nodes may not be necessary, but may present smoother movement, thus not affecting the overall game logic) or the graphics presentation.

When writing something to run in perceived real time, processing power is ALWAYS at a premium. It is simply not an option to rewrite your core algorithms to take longer time, if you are already pushing the envelope on your target machine. Otherwise you will make the game run choppy for the target customer, and that is not a smart thing to do. Writing some smarter code, yes, that can perhaps be done, but only if you do not significantly increase the number of CPU cycles it takes to compute.

And what makes this different from turn based games, then? Only one thing: the processor time that can actually be allocated to making decisions is typically larger in turn based games and, even better, TBS's typically do not have to devote a large amount of resources to graphics while doing their AI computations.

Starfighter08

March 10th, 2004, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Taqwus:
And remember to think like an Orlanthi, instead of min-maxing or adhering too much to modern sensibilities. [/QB]Agree. About KoDP and the advice how to play it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Bossemanden

March 10th, 2004, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
(On Sunday I was in a local Ebgames store and saw yet another, new, EU-engine game by Paradox, dealing with just France and England.) Strategy First/Paradox is to strategy gaming as Hasbro/WotC/TSR is to pen & paper gaming. Not correct. Two thrones is not a EU engine derivative. On the other hand, the coming Crusader kings that deals only with Europe 1066-1419 is.

And EU2/HOI has no more provinces to deal with than Dom2 does when using very large maps. Not correct. IIRC both EU2 and HOI has more than a 1000 provinces, with Victoria having significantly more. AFAIK Dom2 has a limit of 500.

Couple with the fact that Dom2 has more complex unit interactions than EU2 does. Only HOI can approach the complexity of Dom2 unit interactions. And the HOI AI, while having more "work" to do each "turn", doesn't play "worse" than EU2, which is a simpler model. So explanations such as time available or model complexity simply do not wash for EU2. The EU-engine games simply suffer from an AI with weak internal algorithms, and no amount of excuses can alter that fact. The Dom2 engine isn't better because it has a "simpler" model. It's better because it's been coded to be better. It manages resources better, it evaluates the strategic situation better, and conducts combat better than Paradox's AI does in comparable circumstances (and yes, you can rig up comparable situations, despite EU-engined games being continuous-time).
Peter has refuted this nicely. Suffice to say that I disagree with you.
Edit: (Apparently I�ll say more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) The continous time vs. turnbased introduces a higher level of complexity as well. This means that algorithms must attempt to do more with less resources, not just the same amount of work with less resources.

Even more annoying in EU is not the brain-dead overstacking but the "mouse that roared" syndrome when some piddly little country will suddenly, for no discernable reason, declare war on a "superpower". I see this in Victoria too. Correct and this is a weakness. On the other hand you might find this very same thing in Dominions as well.

[ March 10, 2004, 09:22: Message edited by: Bossemanden ]

Karacan

March 10th, 2004, 03:35 PM

Independent? Black Isle has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Interplay, to my knowledge. I loved the story of PS:T, perhaps more than any other RPG around...but I hated the combat and the lack of creation and development options for your main character.Yes, I know it's not independent. Sorry, but always when I am supposed to suggest any sort of games, Torment always creeps up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I love the way you create your character ingame actually.

Check out Avernum, if you can bear past-age graphics but value gameplay and storytelling, it's excellent. I can't wait for Blades of Avernum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Ah, yes, and I love Kohan as well... what a great little gem due to it's gameplay. Finally a RTS that rewards moderately slow skill over quick button pushing.

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Bossemanden:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arryn:
Couple with the fact that Dom2 has more complex unit interactions than EU2 does. Only HOI can approach the complexity of Dom2 unit interactions. And the HOI AI, while having more "work" to do each "turn", doesn't play "worse" than EU2, which is a simpler model. So explanations such as time available or model complexity simply do not wash for EU2. The EU-engine games simply suffer from an AI with weak internal algorithms, and no amount of excuses can alter that fact. The Dom2 engine isn't better because it has a "simpler" model. It's better because it's been coded to be better. It manages resources better, it evaluates the strategic situation better, and conducts combat better than Paradox's AI does in comparable circumstances (and yes, you can rig up comparable situations, despite EU-engined games being continuous-time).
Peter has refuted this nicely. Suffice to say that I disagree with you.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, both you and Peter ignored this particular point. I've reduced the discussion to apples-vs.-apples, comparing two games using the same engine, to illustrate my point and help you to focus on the real issue. To reiterate, EU2 has a simpler "model" than HOI (therefore less work to do in each timeslice) and yet the EU2 AI plays as a much "dumber" opponent than the HOI AI. If your argument about limitations of a continuous-time engine were valid as an excuse for the poor AI behavior, then EU2 should play a stronger game than HOI as it has more time to "think" about each choice it makes per cycle than HOI's AI does. This comparison showcases the inherent weakness of the AI algorithms itself, and not limitations imposed by the turn mechanism.

The root problem with the EU-engined games isn't *caused* by their continuous-time nature. It's more fundamental. The problem would still exist if the games were turn-based. Continuous-time just exacerbates an already weak AI.

Finally, as you have admitted, continuous-time could never justify brain-dead behavior such as massive overstacking or stupid war declarations (just to name the two most obvious flaws these games *still* have after *years* of patches). That's just bad logic. Which, as I contend, extends all the way to the core of the games.

Teraswaerto

March 10th, 2004, 04:03 PM

If you have NWN, you should try Shadowlords(1-5), and it's sequel Dreamcatcher(1-4) by Adam Miller. If you don't have NWN, you should get it just to be able to play these. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 10, 2004, 14:05: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Black Isle has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Interplay, to my knowledge.They *were*. Now Black Isle simply no longer exists. Interplay laid off the entire staff ...

Tricon

March 10th, 2004, 04:17 PM

Mmh. Most games i like to play have already been mentioned.

If graphics aren't your main concern, I would check out the underdog site www.the-underdogs.org. (http://www.the-underdogs.org.)
They have tons really good classics. If you like rpg's try Wasteland, which has still a very loyal following even though it's from 1987.

On a side note: I really enjoy EU II and Victoria, the community is pretty good , too. My recomendation: get'em play'em. The money is not wasted.

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fahdiz:
Black Isle has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Interplay, to my knowledge.They *were*. Now Black Isle simply no longer exists. Interplay laid off the entire staff ... <hr /></blockquote>Heh. I followed that sordid mess as well. Actually "Black Isle" - as a brand - still exists...it's simply no longer populated with the people who made those great CRPGs. Interplay has said that they will continue to release games under the "Black Isle" label, when they feel it's "worthy" of the distinction.

But then again, they felt Lionheart was worthy of the name...and that was the most God-awful rushed-together mess of an RPG that I've played in many a year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by Tricon:
Mmh. Most games i like to play have already been mentioned.

If graphics aren't your main concern, I would check out the underdog site www.the-underdogs.org. (http://www.the-underdogs.org.)
They have tons really good classics. If you like rpg's try Wasteland, which has still a very loyal following even though it's from 1987.

On a side note: I really enjoy EU II and Victoria, the community is pretty good , too. My recomendation: get'em play'em. The money is not wasted. I played Wasteland so much on my old 8088 that I broke the arrow keys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I guess what I'm looking for (and I suppose I should have been clearer, since I've gotten a lot of these types of responses) is not so much old classics (as I've been a computer/board/pen-and-paper gamer for a long time) but more the "relatively recently-released, unknown/unsung, unjustly ignored" types of games. I do thank you for the suggestion, though. A few years back I purchased Interplay's giant RPG collection just so I could play Wasteland again. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

On another note, I tried the King of Dragon Pass tour, the Ur-Quan Masters game, and the Star Empires IV demo Last night. I LOVED KoDP (was already a Hero Wars fan, but knew nothing about KoDP) and will probably end up plunking down for it. I enjoyed Ur-Quan (great music in the remixes, too). And SEIV was just fantastic.

The jury's still out on EU2/Victoria, it seems. There's obviously a great deal of different opinion surrounding Paradox's games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Why in the world won't they release demos, so that prospective buyers like me might have an opportunity to check them out? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ March 10, 2004, 15:05: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Heh. I followed that sordid mess as well. Actually "Black Isle" - as a brand - still exists...it's simply no longer populated with the people who made those great CRPGs. Interplay has said that they will continue to release games under the "Black Isle" label, when they feel it's "worthy" of the distinction.

But then again, they felt Lionheart was worthy of the name...and that was the most God-awful rushed-together mess of an RPG that I've played in many a year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif It's insane that they lay off the talent that made Black Isle/Interplay famous and then try to sell the Fallout license. What good is a license without the people? Who yanks the engine out of a car (leaving the car without one) before they sell the car? Idiots!

I bought Lionheart solely on the Black Isle name. My mistake.

The only top-tier developer that's still putting out consistently good games is Bioware. Everyone else is catering to the console crowd.

Tricon

March 10th, 2004, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:

It's insane that they lay off the talent that made Black Isle/Interplay famous and then try to sell the Fallout license. What good is a license without the people? Who yanks the engine out of a car (leaving the car without one) before they sell the car? Idiots!Amen. (edit: deleted rant)

[ March 10, 2004, 15:11: Message edited by: Tricon ]

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 05:19 PM

I agree completely, Arryn.

They've already soiled the good name of Fallout with the "Brotherhood of Steel" console hackfest. Personally, my feeling is that Interplay is no longer a company to be trusted.

OK, all this (previous) conversation about EU2/HoI/Victoria has got me itching to try them. Maybe I'll have to bargain-bin hunt for EU2 this weekend and simply take a chance.

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
OK, all this (previous) conversation about EU2/HoI/Victoria has got me itching to try them. Maybe I'll have to bargain-bin hunt for EU2 this weekend and simply take a chance. Despite my feelings about the lameness of the EU engine AI, I do recommend you get EU2 and HOI. I also recommend that you spend an extra 6 bucks and buy EU1 just for the EU1 manual which has some very interesting historical info in it.

With regards to HOI, my advice is to be sure you play it with the CORE mod. The basic game's AI files, OOBs, and other factors leave much to be desired. The CORE team has put in an enormous amount of effort into making the game more historically accurate, balanced, and tweaking the AI (as much as can be done) to provide some sort of challenge.

IMO, Victoria is still too buggy to be worth buying. It needs at least 1-2 more patches. A good friend of mine plays Vicky every night, has been doing so for months now, and he never has anything good to say about the game. I own the game myself and he keeps reminding me why I shouldn't play it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif He keeps playing it because he has nothing else to distract him. I've been trying to get him interested in Dom (since my BF won't play me) but he prefers games that have an economy-management aspect to them (like EU/HOI, and Civ, etc.).

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
Despite my feelings about the lameness of the EU engine AI, I do recommend you get EU2 and HOI. I also recommend that you spend an extra 6 bucks and buy EU1 just for the EU1 manual which has some very interesting historical info in it.I'm not as interested in HoI as I am in the other two, as I tend to shy away from "modern warfare" games unless they're science-fiction. World War II is an interesting period in history, but not one which I personally find very entertaining in games. The one exception to this would be Pod9's oustanding Gear Krieg miniatures wargame/pen-and-paper RPG, as it's much more of a "what-if" scenario with steampowered mecha, etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

IMO, Victoria is still too buggy to be worth buying. It needs at least 1-2 more patches. A good friend of mine plays Vicky every night, has been doing so for months now, and he never has anything good to say about the game. I own the game myself and he keeps reminding me why I shouldn't play it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Duly noted; thank you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

MythicalMino

March 10th, 2004, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:

I have and frequently play Warlords BC II. It's great! Unfortunately Warlords IV was a real letdown, coming off the greatness of Warlords III and then going years ahead to...IV. Hardly the update many thought it would be. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

What happened to Warlords IV? At one time, the game looked so incredible, then all of a sudden, it totally changed....combat was looking like a fantasy type of Total War (just the screenshots...), then one day, it just all...changed....

I bought Gangland Last nite....really like that game....I also got my hands on Warlords 4, BUT, i only bought it cause it also came with Warlords Battlecry II.

Peter Ebbesen

March 10th, 2004, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
Actually, both you and Peter ignored this particular point. I've reduced the discussion to apples-vs.-apples, comparing two games using the same engine, to illustrate my point and help you to focus on the real issue. To reiterate, EU2 has a simpler "model" than HOI (therefore less work to do in each timeslice) and yet the EU2 AI plays as a much "dumber" opponent than the HOI AI.
I did not address this point, as it was not the main focus of your argument. The focus of your argument was EU2 vs. DOMII, or RTS vs TB, and in that situation time is the real issue.

HOI (or Victoria, for that matter) vs EU2 clearly shows that given enough development time, a better AI on the same game engine can be made [what a surprise], though it has to obey the same timing restrictions as the old AI, for which we are happy as players, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the RTS-TB comparison and fundamental timing issues.

I fear we are talking past each other, here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Basically, if you stop comparing turn-based and real-time-based strategy game AIs in a "which is better" fashion, I will stop bringing up timing issues. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ March 10, 2004, 16:15: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by cpbeller:
What happened to Warlords IV? At one time, the game looked so incredible, then all of a sudden, it totally changed....combat was looking like a fantasy type of Total War (just the screenshots...), then one day, it just all...changed....I don't know, but it made me sad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

The tactical one-on-one combat system is interesting, but marred in my opinion by the absolutely hideous, cartoony graphics. The map portion of the game and the other artwork looks OK, though...

And it must be said that I am not really a graphics buff, or at least not one who values graphics over gameplay. But...wow. Warlords IV threw out many of the things which made WIII great, and introduced other things which - in my opinion - didn't add a lot of value to the mix. I was really looking forward to it, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Azlandius

March 10th, 2004, 06:42 PM

I am also new to Dom 2 and loving it! The (other) TBS I really love right now is Stardock's Galactic Civilizations. They have been making updates and adding enhancements to the game since it was released. They even have an expansion coming out in the next couple of months. It is purely SP, but the AI is very well done and can offer a challenge. Since they haven't been mentioned, I'd also point you to the first 2 Master of Orion games.

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Azlandius:
I am also new to Dom 2 and loving it! The (other) TBS I really love right now is Stardock's Galactic Civilizations. They have been making updates and adding enhancements to the game since it was released. They even have an expansion coming out in the next couple of months. It is purely SP, but the AI is very well done and can offer a challenge. Since they haven't been mentioned, I'd also point you to the first 2 Master of Orion games. Thanks! I used to play MOO2 quite a bit.

Galactic Civilizations sounds interesting...I'll have to search around a bit. Is it shareware or retail?

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Galactic Civilizations sounds interesting...I'll have to search around a bit. Is it shareware or retail? GalCiv is retail. It's an interesting game, but it's replayability is, IMO, limited, compared to MOO3 or SE4. After a few games, all your games seem to play out pretty much the same. A large part of this problem is the fact that you can only play as humans, unlike MOO3 or SE4 with their great ability to create custom races.

tinkthank

March 10th, 2004, 08:02 PM

Hello!
I'm no wargamer, nor experienced gamer at all, and have no clue about publishing houses and all, but I really really liked
Planescape Torment
Fallout (1&2)
Arcana
-- I think these were all by Bioware or Bioware related people.
I did not care for NWN at all, finding it totally superficial, and Morrowind bugged me for the same reasons.
I know none of these are the same genre as DomII, but I think you asked for that in your original post.

Bossemanden

March 10th, 2004, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Hello!
I'm no wargamer, nor experienced gamer at all, and have no clue about publishing houses and all, but I really really liked
Planescape Torment
Fallout (1&2)
Arcana
-- I think these were all by Bioware or Bioware related people.
I did not care for NWN at all, finding it totally superficial, and Morrowind bugged me for the same reasons.
I know none of these are the same genre as DomII, but I think you asked for that in your original post. Ah yes. I fondly remember Torment and the Fallouts as the best CRPG�s I�ve ever played (Possible contenders are Baldurs gate I and II). Havent heard of Arcana. Do you mean Arcanum, by Troika?

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 08:18 PM

Planescape Torment - Black Isle Studios (Interplay)
Fallout - Black Isle Studios (Interplay)
Arcanum - Troika Games (Sierra)
NWN - Bioware (Atari)

Bioware is famous for Baldur's Gate (etc.), which they developed in conjunction with Black Isle (yes, two major design studios on one project). Bioware's most recent product is Knights of the Old Republic, distributed by LucasArts.

Troika's most recent effort is the POS game Temple of Elemental Evil. OTOH, they are working on Vampire: Bloodlines, which may give me cause to forgive them for prostituting themselves with Temple.

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I know none of these are the same genre as DomII, but I think you asked for that in your original post. Yes, Dom II is pretty much the only turn-based fantasy game I'm playing these days. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Every once in a while I fire up Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic to look at the pretty graphics...and then I shut it down again and play Dom. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thanks for all your suggestions, by the way - I've played every game on that list and loved them all (except for Torment and Arcanum, which I just "liked", my enthusiasm having been tempered somewhat by combat-related issues). Great minds think alike, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

So far I've come out of this discussion with some great finds - chief among them being King of Dragon Pass, Space Empires IV, Laser Squad Nemesis (what a kick that little game is!), and Europa Universalis II. I'll be buying all four of those, for sure.

If anyone has further suggestions of current "indie" games which are labors of love rather than labors of cash, I'd still love to hear them. But these, plus Dom, should keep me going for a while. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

EDIT: By the way, I don't know how many of you were fans of the old Eon boardgame Cosmic Encounter (I used to play it like crazy, until my set got water damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ), but I found out recently that the Eon folks have gotten back together to make a fully Online Version of their classic game, with new stuff being added all the time. It's at Cosmic Encounter Online (http://www.cosmicencounter.com) if you want to check it out. Just trying to return the favor in some small way. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 10, 2004, 18:32: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Great minds think alike, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Scary ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fahdiz:
Great minds think alike, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Scary ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>Now, now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ March 10, 2004, 18:32: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
If anyone has further suggestions of current "indie" games which are labors of love rather than labors of cash, I'd still love to hear them.If you liked X-COM/TFTD/X-COM:Apoc you might want to check out UFO:Aftermath. The primary fan site (http://www.ufoaftermath.co.uk/) can link you to demos and the publisher's site. GoGamer.com carries the game, BTW, as does EBgames in their stores.

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Now, now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I only tease people I like. I think you've seen what I do to those I don't ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Bossemanden

March 10th, 2004, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
If you liked X-COM/TFTD/X-COM:Apoc you might want to check out UFO:Aftermath. The primary fan site (http://www.ufoaftermath.co.uk/) can link you to demos and the publisher's site. GoGamer.com carries the game, BTW, as does EBgames in their stores. Hmm I bougth UFO:Aftermath and it was a nice enough game, but somehow the athmosphere of the XCOM games wasnt there. Played it through once and havent touched it after.
Not really sure why I wasnt impressed. It should be a much better game than the earlier XCOM�s, but it isnt. Apoc is still my favourite XCOM game.

MythicalMino

March 10th, 2004, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cpbeller:
What happened to Warlords IV? At one time, the game looked so incredible, then all of a sudden, it totally changed....combat was looking like a fantasy type of Total War (just the screenshots...), then one day, it just all...changed....I don't know, but it made me sad. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

The tactical one-on-one combat system is interesting, but marred in my opinion by the absolutely hideous, cartoony graphics. The map portion of the game and the other artwork looks OK, though...

And it must be said that I am not really a graphics buff, or at least not one who values graphics over gameplay. But...wow. Warlords IV threw out many of the things which made WIII great, and introduced other things which - in my opinion - didn't add a lot of value to the mix. I was really looking forward to it, too. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif <hr /></blockquote>To be honest, it seems as though they try to start their next game half way through the one they are currently working on. It happened to Warlords Battlecry 2. They started on Warlords 4, and just seemed to drop support for WB2. Then, Warlords 4, before it is even really out, they seem to drop support for that, and start promoting (and focusing) on Warlords Battlecry 3.

Doesn't make much sense...but i know that it sucks. I loved Warlords Battlecry 2, but then they just seemed to STOP doing anything more with/for it. Before WB3 is done, they may start Warlords 5, then just dump WB3....

Not sure I am understanding any of it. I played Warlords IV, and I was NOT impressed. Especially in light of Dominions 2. Dom2 is THE best fantasy tbs strat game i have played. And the junk that Warlords 4 turned out to be....

Right now, I am playing a number of games....Planetside, I have Rise of Nations on my pc (waiting for the x-pack), Warlords Battlecry 2 (thinking about taking that one off though), Medieval Total War & Shogun Total War (haven't played them yet though), and thinking about putting Civ3 (w/ x-packs) back on.

Of course, Dominions 2 is on, and Space Empires 4 Gold is on there too, but I haven't played those either. Mostly just Planetside, and now Gangland.

I would recommend Gangland to just about anyone. It is pretty good, I think.

Chris

Arryn

March 10th, 2004, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Bossemanden:
Hmm I bougth UFO:Aftermath and it was a nice enough game, but somehow the athmosphere of the XCOM games wasnt there. Played it through once and havent touched it after.
Not really sure why I wasnt impressed. It should be a much better game than the earlier XCOM�s, but it isnt. Apoc is still my favourite XCOM game. Because Aftermath is missing the entire climb ladders/stairs and go inside buildings aspect that made the X-COM battles so interesting. Plus it lacks the economic side of the game. No base construction & layout. It's just research and 2D fighting. What it does, it does better. Problem is that it doesn't do as much as the orginal games did. So it leaves a lot of people unsatisified. You don't get enough of that "being in control" feeling.

Taqwus

March 10th, 2004, 09:46 PM

Oh, and perhaps I'm just being loony, but you might want to look at _Settlers of Catan_, which has board, 2-player card, and apparently, computer variants. Sometimes it's good to play in person so you can throttle the other fellow when he takes away your Bishop with a Spy, then immediately launches three Arsonists and toasts your expensive buildings.

fahdiz

March 10th, 2004, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Oh, and perhaps I'm just being loony, but you might want to look at _Settlers of Catan_, which has board, 2-player card, and apparently, computer variants. Sometimes it's good to play in person so you can throttle the other fellow when he takes away your Bishop with a Spy, then immediately launches three Arsonists and toasts your expensive buildings. Settlers of Catan is one of my wife's and my favorite board games. You people have great taste! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

AStott

March 11th, 2004, 12:31 AM

Here's one that hasn't been mentioned yet...

Uplink: http://www.introVersion.co.uk/uplink/

This is a nifty game where you are a hacker. Very interestingly done.

Kjeld

March 11th, 2004, 01:31 AM

I definitely agree with Kohan beeing a little gem. It is the only real time strategy game that "feels" like a turn by turn game. The "company" system and the clear choices to reward thinking vs. micromanagement and click fests was truely refreshing.

The best civ-like is IMHO SMAC. The game itself was a solid and classical (but well done, the whole social engineering system was nifty) civ-clone, but what I really liked in this game was the "storytelling", immersive elements. With all the voice acting and text blurbs for each technologies and buildings, and the text interludes following up the great game manual, there was a nice atmosphere of discovery, I truely felt I was unlocking the secrets of the planet.

Although the game is very, very basic (though strangely addictive) and has nowhere near the depth of even the AoW or HoMM series, I have a soft spot for the Disciples series. The graphics of disciples 2 are gorgeous, and the "dark fantasy" art is really brillant (though I dislike the main map, way too crowded, however the character portraits and combat models are awesome) : again, a very immersive experience, largely due to the art style this time.

Kel

March 11th, 2004, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by Kjeld:

The best civ-like is IMHO SMAC. SMAC was second only to MoM for 4x games to me. For non 4x strategy, I liked Sacrifice a *lot*, though it had more of a chess like quality.

- Kel

fahdiz

March 11th, 2004, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Kjeld:
Although the game is very, very basic (though strangely addictive) and has nowhere near the depth of even the AoW or HoMM series, I have a soft spot for the Disciples series. The graphics of disciples 2 are gorgeous, and the "dark fantasy" art is really brillant (though I dislike the main map, way too crowded, however the character portraits and combat models are awesome) : again, a very immersive experience, largely due to the art style this time. I couldn't agree more. It's fabulous for what it is. I always sort of likened it to a turn-based fighting game more than a strategy game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif And the artwork and models are, bar none, the slickest stuff I've seen in a strategy game to date.

fahdiz

March 11th, 2004, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by Kel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kjeld:

The best civ-like is IMHO SMAC. SMAC was second only to MoM for 4x games to me. For non 4x strategy, I liked Sacrifice a *lot*, though it had more of a chess like quality.<hr /></blockquote>http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Chess-like? Yes, I suppose...if you like playing chess at Ludicrous Speed (TM). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Sacrifice is a total gem. Fast paced and VERY fun.

Karacan

March 11th, 2004, 02:38 AM

Going the fantasy way of suggesting games:

A couple of years ago, I fell in love with the Exile-series from Spiderweb. Great immersive hack&slay-rpgs. Check out Avernum I - III, their spiritual children, but beware: They're huge. My third time playing through Avernum III, which I all but knew by heart then, took about 55 hours playing time approximately, and none of it boring.

King Of Dragonpass is *the* game for all Hero Wars and Glorantha fans, and everyone into interactive stories.

I'd suggest Planescape: Torment as probably the best computer-rpg available, but since everyone knows it (or should, at least...)... unbelievable that a company that proved that it could deliver tons of story, highly interesting characters and finally an interaction system that allows you more than the general "Yes, I would love to lick your boots"-, "Now you die scum!"- and "I'll do it, but pay me first"-answers then turned out some disappointing crap like Neverwinternights...

Those are my independent favourites. I am also an avid Morrowindplayer, but that's beside the point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Arryn

March 11th, 2004, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Ludicrous Speed (TM)From arguably the best line in that movie ...

fahdiz

March 11th, 2004, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by Karacan:
Going the fantasy way of suggesting games:

A couple of years ago, I fell in love with the Exile-series from Spiderweb. Great immersive hack&slay-rpgs. Check out Avernum I - III, their spiritual children, but beware: They're huge. My third time playing through Avernum III, which I all but knew by heart then, took about 55 hours playing time approximately, and none of it boring.I played the Exile games years ago when I had a Mac, but I never tried the Avernum "remakes". Maybe I'll give one of them a shot.

I'd suggest Planescape: Torment as probably the best computer-rpg available, but since everyone knows it (or should, at least...)... unbelievable that a company that proved that it could deliver tons of story, highly interesting characters and finally an interaction system that allows you more than the general "Yes, I would love to lick your boots"-, "Now you die scum!"- and "I'll do it, but pay me first"-answers then turned out some disappointing crap like Neverwinternights...Independent? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif Black Isle has always been a wholly owned subsidiary of Interplay, to my knowledge. I loved the story of PS:T, perhaps more than any other RPG around...but I hated the combat and the lack of creation and development options for your main character.

Those are my independent favourites. I am also an avid Morrowindplayer, but that's beside the point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I have a special love/hate relationship with Morrowind. Unlike PS:T, you have virtually limitless options at character creation, and that is a Good Thing (TM). I love its sprawling nature, its interesting storyline, and its nOnlinearity. However, melee combat in Morrowind is so bloody awful...and there are so many other little frustrations with that game. So I love it and want to throw my PC through the window, all at the same time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

rabelais

March 11th, 2004, 03:06 AM

Angband.

The deepest ... timesink... ever constructed, by man or Valar.

http://www.thangorodrim.net/

Rabe the YASD, Emeritus.

fahdiz

March 11th, 2004, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by rabelais:
Angband.

The deepest ... timesink... ever constructed, by man or Valar.

http://www.thangorodrim.net/

Rabe the YASD, Emeritus. I prefer Nethack, and its fabulous variant Slash'EM, but I've spent a good deal of time on several Angband variants as well. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ToME is just super.

By the way, I just wanted to give a special thanks to those who recommended King of Dragon Pass...what an innovative game that is! I can't wait to get the full Version. Reminds me of how badly I wanted to be able to host Turn 41 in the Dom II demo... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Does anyone else here play Coliseum? I've been having fun with that demo, as well.

Taqwus

March 11th, 2004, 05:32 AM

The _Combat Mission_ games from http://www.battlefront.com also come to mind, although they're not necessarily of that wide appeal. Meticulously scanning the 3D terrain and carefully plotting orders for every unit (individual vehicle, squad or half-squad, weapons team, gun, basically) for each minute-long phase can be daunting. But if you're at home in a community full of grogs who'll debate the frequency or utility of a Bren tripod or research TOE/OOB for specific battles or who have tables of actual penetration data of a particular AP round type from a 88mm PaK '43 against so-and-so mm of steel plate and so-and-so angle and distance, well, have at it.

KoDP is fun. Heh -- if you want to REALLY annoy the other clans, try a slavemaster approach. Say your ancestors took the Nalda Bin as thralls, choose a War clan, and in battle keep choosing "take captives" and keeping 'em. It is not good for diplomacy when you have more thralls than your own farmers in your clan, better keep amassing weaponthanes and war blessings...

Nor is it good for your economy when an enemy raid eventually gets lucky, cracks your defenses and frees all the thralls. Oops. Don't say I didn't warn you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

fahdiz

March 11th, 2004, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Taqwus:
KoDP is fun. Heh -- if you want to REALLY annoy the other clans, try a slavemaster approach. Say your ancestors took the Nalda Bin as thralls, choose a War clan, and in battle keep choosing "take captives" and keeping 'em. It is not good for diplomacy when you have more thralls than your own farmers in your clan, better keep amassing weaponthanes and war blessings...

Nor is it good for your economy when an enemy raid eventually gets lucky, cracks your defenses and frees all the thralls. Oops. Don't say I didn't warn you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif OK, I ordered KoDP this morning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I do have a question, though, for avid fans of the game - is A Sharp developing any "expansions"? Like more story events, etc? Or are there modding tools to add your own? Or is the game pretty much "finished"? Either way, I don't care - 450 random story events will keep me well-entertained, and will probably keep things random enough that it doesn't feel too similar each time you play. But it would be neat if they were actually developing some new stuff for the game...

Karacan

March 11th, 2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
OK, I ordered KoDP this morning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I do have a question, though, for avid fans of the game - is A Sharp developing any "expansions"? Like more story events, etc? Or are there modding tools to add your own? Or is the game pretty much "finished"? Unfortunately, I believe A.Sharp suffered as much from the HeroWars disaster as Greg Stafford himself - several publishers of the books went broke due to deservedly low sales, the books were released due to monetary pressure far too son, and are full of typos, confusion and lack of serious material - at least in the european area.

Any way, make sure to patch immediatley after getting your game. The shipped Version isn't much fun once you realize that there's no way of getting more sheep to upkeep your temples. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif On the other hand, maybe they ship the patched Version by now. I still have a treasured one from my Beta-days. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Oh, and don't even bother to play the "short" Version - it stops just as things are getting interesting.

Any way, I am afraid there won't be a sequel, strangely enough though that KodP received lots of praise from nearly everywhere. If someone proves me wrong, I'd be glad about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

fahdiz

March 11th, 2004, 06:00 PM

Yes, I saw that there was a patch released Last year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'll be sure to grab it.

I was looking at what happens in the "short" Version...and I was thinking the same thing. "Why would I play this when there's a LONG Version?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

As for A#, it appears that they at least haven't abandoned their website. They Last updated it in February of this year...perhaps I'll write them and see if they have any future plans for KoDP.

Kel

March 12th, 2004, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Yes, I saw that there was a patch released Last year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'll be sure to grab it.

I was looking at what happens in the "short" Version...and I was thinking the same thing. "Why would I play this when there's a LONG Version?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Note that a long game could be *extremely* long, depending on your actions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You get a choice of when you want to 'go for the gold' as they say and you can just keep chugging along for as long as you want before you decide to go for it.

Also note that events are done very subtlely and the same 'right path' for one event is often different from game to game and situation to situation...so while there are X number of events that can happen, there are more than X different paths, if that makes any sense.

- Kel

fahdiz

March 12th, 2004, 04:18 AM

Originally posted by Kel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fahdiz:
Yes, I saw that there was a patch released Last year. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'll be sure to grab it.

I was looking at what happens in the "short" Version...and I was thinking the same thing. "Why would I play this when there's a LONG Version?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
Note that a long game could be *extremely* long, depending on your actions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif You get a choice of when you want to 'go for the gold' as they say and you can just keep chugging along for as long as you want before you decide to go for it.

Also note that events are done very subtlely and the same 'right path' for one event is often different from game to game and situation to situation...so while there are X number of events that can happen, there are more than X different paths, if that makes any sense.

- Kel <hr /></blockquote>It sounds like you feel there's a lot of replayability in the game, yes?

PvK

March 12th, 2004, 04:48 AM

Hey, you people do have good taste. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also worth mentioning, IMO, are Myth: The Fallen Lords and Myth II: Soulblighter (I don't really care much for Myth III.)

Great detailed real-time tactical fantasy/medieval combat with good atmosphere, humor, and interesting tactical problems, good scenarios, and good multi-player. No RTS genre badness like having to gather resources and do construction and R&D while trying to fight. No fake-o wrong proportions of time and space.

PvK

fahdiz

March 12th, 2004, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by PvK:
Hey, you people do have good taste. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Also worth mentioning, IMO, are Myth: The Fallen Lords and Myth II: Soulblighter (I don't really care much for Myth III.)I actually did fairly decently for a while on bungie.net with Myth 1. More wins than losses, which made me happy enough. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I was *so* disappointed in Myth III. But then again, I don't know what I was expecting, given that Bungie didn't develop it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Well, since I've spent my money for the month on King of Dragon Pass, next month I'll hunt down Europa Universalis II. No bargain bin shall be left unruffled. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thanks for all the suggestions, folks!

[ March 12, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

fahdiz

March 12th, 2004, 08:37 PM

Speaking of EU2, has anyone been looking forward to Crusader Kings? I was checking it out Last night...and the fact that you'll have the ability to import your finished Crusader Kings games into EU2 so that you can continue play is a very, very cool feature.

As that also happens to be one of the most interesting periods in history (to me), I might have to add yet another game to the "wish-list". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Arryn

March 12th, 2004, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Speaking of EU2, has anyone been looking forward to Crusader Kings?After being burned by Vicky, I have no intention of giving any more of my money to Paradox until they fix the things that are wrong with their engine that they should have fixed years ago. No matter what condiments you put on it, a burger is still meat in a bun. I'd like my meat to be a bit less raw than the way Paradox is serving it ...

Teraswaerto

March 12th, 2004, 09:51 PM

Arryn

March 12th, 2004, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
Myth II is the best RTS (or RTT), hands down. Myth II was very good, but I still have a soft spot for Starcraft. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

fahdiz

March 12th, 2004, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
Myth II is the best RTS (or RTT), hands down. Myth II was very good, but I still have a soft spot for Starcraft. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <hr /></blockquote>Starcraft...I had a love/hate relationship with that game. Fun, overall, but in particular far too easy to rush, far too susceptible to uncounterable mass-cheese (superweapons) in the late game. I much prefer Dominions, where my supercombatants (and my opponents' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ) are counterable with a little bit of forward thinking.

Plus, if I saw someone type "OMG zerg rush KIKIKIKIKIKIKIIIII" one more time, I thought I was going to vomit.

Norfleet

March 12th, 2004, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Plus, if I saw someone type "OMG zerg rush KIKIKIKIKIKIKIIIII" one more time, I thought I was going to vomit. At times like that, I am thankful that this is the Internet and I cannot actually physically reach people, because if I actually *SAW* somebody type that, I'd be hard-pressed NOT to throttle him to death with my bare hands.

I should immediately begin making plans to dispose of the body in case I ever run into this.

Besides, Total Annihilation is TOTALLY superior to Starcraft in nearly every way.

fahdiz

March 12th, 2004, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Besides, Total Annihilation is TOTALLY superior to Starcraft in nearly every way. I agree.

Arryn

March 12th, 2004, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Norfleet:
Besides, Total Annihilation is TOTALLY superior to Starcraft in nearly every way. I agree. <hr /></blockquote>For the record, I never said Starcraft was the best. I just said I had a soft spot for it.

Norfleet

March 12th, 2004, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
For the record, I never said Starcraft was the best. I just said I had a soft spot for it. I have a soft spot for sharp, pointy objects, too, but I'd still rather that people not test that.

fahdiz

March 12th, 2004, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
For the record, I never said Starcraft was the best. I just said I had a soft spot for it. No, I can understand that. As a game, it had a lot going for it. The user community...and actually the community for every Blizzard game, now that I think about it...was really not so good.

Norfleet

March 12th, 2004, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
No, I can understand that. As a game, it had a lot going for it. The user community...and actually the community for every Blizzard game, now that I think about it...was really not so good. As a game, the most vivid image that sticks in my mind is a giant spacecraft being shot down by a little man with an assault rifle.

And the community of ANY Blizzard game is terrible, for one very simple reason: As a massmarket game, it'll have a massmarket community. Did I mention that 90% of such a community will be composed of smacktards?

[ March 12, 2004, 21:24: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

fahdiz

March 12th, 2004, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
And the community of ANY Blizzard game is terrible, for one very simple reason: As a massmarket game, it'll have a massmarket community. Did I mention that 90% of such a community will be composed of smacktards? I don't know...Blizzard's games (and especially their forums) seem to attract, for whatever reason, an exceptionally special kind of smacktard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Norfleet

March 13th, 2004, 12:36 AM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
I don't know...Blizzard's games (and especially their forums) seem to attract, for whatever reason, an exceptionally special kind of smacktard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Korean smacktards. Not only are they Korean, so their English is already going to suffer understandably, but they're ALSO smacktards! Even if they were speaking in KOREAN, they would STILL be incomprehensible! There's nothing worse than English-as-a-second-language smacktards.

Pillin

March 13th, 2004, 01:55 AM

Hey! I resent that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Cainehill

March 13th, 2004, 04:28 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fahdiz:
I guess what I'm looking for (and I suppose I should have been clearer, since I've gotten a lot of these types of responses) is not so much old classics (as I've been a computer/board/pen-and-paper gamer for a long time) but more the "relatively recently-released, unknown/unsung, unjustly ignored" types of games. I do thank you for the suggestion, though. [...]

I've seen people mention Nethack in this thread, but no one mentioning the Angband derivatives. (Also note: my first post here, I have no idea how quotes / Posts get formatted, so...) Nethack is a classic, with 99 ways to die just with the kitchen sink. I'm not always so sure this is a plus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

But the Angband derivatives.... Text only (meaning the graphics are only _slightly_ inferior to Dominions 2 (this is meant as a bad joke )), but the magic, weapon, monster, crypt systems... Some of the derivatives suck - for my tastes. Some of the same ones rule - for people with slightly different tastes. There's one's loosely based on Zelazny's Amber (Zangband), on McCaffrey's Pern, etc.

Some have graphics, some don't, some are infuriatingly difficult, others are more difficult *grin* and a few have settings that make things easy. Most have "Ironman" settings, to eliminate any sense of easy, and reduce a game to a matter of hours instead of weeks.

Current games - I've been disappointed in most. But the Dominions 2 demo drew me in enough that even unemployment didn't keep me from ordering it.

Past games? Master of Magic. If it weren't for the mid-to-end-game bugs (ethereal flying ships, etc), I'd still be playing it. Warlords 1 (the original map and race layout was classic / superb). Age of Wonders 2, Shadow Magic? Not so sure about that one, as you get locked into certain magic paths, which gets old.

Anyways - any new Dom2 games starting up soon? I hope to have my full copy tomorrow. (Then again, I hoped to have it Wednesday.)

Rome wasn't burnt in a day,
Cainehill

Teraswaerto

March 13th, 2004, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
Myth II is the best RTS (or RTT), hands down. Myth II was very good, but I still have a soft spot for Starcraft. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif <hr /></blockquote>I may be biased, since Myth II is the only RTS I've ever been any good at. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Still, the lack of resource gathering & unit production makes for a different, IMO much better experience. It's not about who can build new units the fastest, as games like Starcraft tend to be.

Norfleet

March 13th, 2004, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Nethack is a classic, with 99 ways to die just with the kitchen sink. I'm not always so sure this is a plus. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif See, that kind of deadliness is exactly what I aspire to when creating my own game. Already I can lay claim to the fact that back when it was actually in service as a game, we had more ways to die than any other game of that type.

Clearly, I need more ways to die. Particularly stupid ways, because watching people die stupidly is a national pasttime over on my site.

mivayan

March 13th, 2004, 06:54 PM

Sometimes I died in nethack from choking to death trying to eat a fortune cookie when really stuffed. Nethack is great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Endoperez

March 13th, 2004, 08:23 PM

As opposed to Nethack, ADOM! It's a hard game, though, and not an easy one to get hold of. But believe me, once you learn the ASCII you can read through the game! For some reason I can't stand the graphics of older Ultimas but I have no problems playing ADOM. BTW, in ADOM you can't choose to play Ironman. It is the norm, and the only possibility programmed in the game...

Wonderful game, anyway. BTW, Illwinter links to ADOM, Dungeon Crawl AND Slash'em. I have thought I should try Crawl too. Has anyone here tried it? How it compares to ADOM?

E. Albright

March 13th, 2004, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
I guess what I'm looking for (and I suppose I should have been clearer, since I've gotten a lot of these types of responses) is not so much old classics (as I've been a computer/board/pen-and-paper gamer for a long time) but more the "relatively recently-released, unknown/unsung, unjustly ignored" types of games. H'm. What do you mean by recent? I feel compelled to put in a good word for Emperor of the Fading Suns, but it's about eight (?) years old now. This seems recent to me, but my standards may be warped. Anyway, it's a lovely little Machevellian sci-fi TBS. The AI leaves a great deal to be desired (it's probably best for PBEM), and the game feels slightly unfinished (some of the intended functionality looks so wonderful that I want to cry), but what it does deliver is very, very solid. I've never found another game (well, except Merchant Prince) that allows for as much conniving political interaction. Which of course only makes me all the more mournful that it wasn't adequetely supported and/or finished. Oh, and the combat model is almost perfect. Routed units aren't quite handled right (IMO), but combined arms are done nicely.

Anyway, shortcomings aside, I'll finish my (qualified) gushing endorsement by pointing out that, despite all of its shortcomings, it's been continuously installed since I bought it...

[ March 13, 2004, 21:33: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

fahdiz

March 14th, 2004, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by Endoperez:
As opposed to Nethack, ADOM! It's a hard game, though, and not an easy one to get hold of.Bah, if not for Nethack there'd have been no ADOM. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

BTW, in ADOM you can't choose to play Ironman. It is the norm, and the only possibility programmed in the game...Same with Nethack. You die, game over.

Wonderful game, anyway. BTW, Illwinter links to ADOM, Dungeon Crawl AND Slash'em. I have thought I should try Crawl too. Has anyone here tried it? How it compares to ADOM? I've played Dungeon Crawl, and think it stacks up quite favorably to ADOM. The way it handles line-of-sight is quite brilliant, actually.

moodgiesanta

March 14th, 2004, 07:51 PM

I missed the Black Isle/Interplay bashing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Anyhow, Geneforge 1 and 2 are very good, from the dude who made Exile. Also see Avernum 3, a nice game much in the same vein of Exile.

Arcanum is very hit-or-miss. Not really an indy game, though. Arcana, on the other hand, which is as indy of a game as you can get for a console, is one of the underrated gems of the Super Nintendo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 3D dungeon romp with neat graphics and a fairly good soundtrack, for a 16-bit game. And lots of nostalgia from long ago . . .

[ June 06, 2004, 18:52: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Truper

March 14th, 2004, 08:27 PM

Hit the ol' edit post button too soon...

[ March 14, 2004, 18:31: Message edited by: Truper ]

Truper

March 14th, 2004, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by E. Albright:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fahdiz:
I guess what I'm looking for (and I suppose I should have been clearer, since I've gotten a lot of these types of responses) is not so much old classics (as I've been a computer/board/pen-and-paper gamer for a long time) but more the "relatively recently-released, unknown/unsung, unjustly ignored" types of games. H'm. What do you mean by recent? I feel compelled to put in a good word for Emperor of the Fading Suns, but it's about eight (?) years old now. This seems recent to me, but my standards may be warped. Anyway, it's a lovely little Machevellian sci-fi TBS. The AI leaves a great deal to be desired (it's probably best for PBEM), and the game feels slightly unfinished (some of the intended functionality looks so wonderful that I want to cry), but what it does deliver is very, very solid. I've never found another game (well, except Merchant Prince) that allows for as much conniving political interaction. Which of course only makes me all the more mournful that it wasn't adequetely supported and/or finished. Oh, and the combat model is almost perfect. Routed units aren't quite handled right (IMO), but combined arms are done nicely.

Anyway, shortcomings aside, I'll finish my (qualified) gushing endorsement by pointing out that, despite all of its shortcomings, it's been continuously installed since I bought it... <hr /></blockquote>Are you aware of the fan-made mods? They went a long way toward fixing some of the problems in the original EFS. If you're interested, I can probably locate the site again - it been quite a few years since I was invilved with EFS - but it sure was a great game...

fahdiz

March 15th, 2004, 04:48 PM

Well, this weekend I broke down and ordered EU2 (found it for $11 Online, couldn't find it in the bargain bins of the usual game stores I frequent)...so that'll be arriving soon. One quick question about EU2 - is it possible to mold the state religion of your nation of choice, or do you pretty much have to tow the line of recorded history?

For example: if I wanted a Catholic China or a Buddhist British Empire, could I do so in EU2?

Peter Ebbesen

March 15th, 2004, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Well, this weekend I broke down and ordered EU2 (found it for $11 Online, couldn't find it in the bargain bins of the usual game stores I frequent)...so that'll be arriving soon. One quick question about EU2 - is it possible to mold the state religion of your nation of choice, or do you pretty much have to tow the line of recorded history?

For example: if I wanted a Catholic China or a Buddhist British Empire, could I do so in EU2? No - not without modding (which is easy as all event and all save files are plain text format for easy editing).

You can change between Catholic-Protestant-Reformed Protestant at will (though you suffer a bit of turmoil when doing so), but all other religion changes have to be either scripted (e.g. all Indian nations have a chance to become Sunni muslim through events) or forced. Sunni/Shia's can force-convert each other as can Catholics-Protestants-Reformed, and everybody can force-convert the pagans... (Though it is much more profitable to conquer them and send out the missionaries)

It is possible to create weird-religion vassal states, however, by conquering a country, converting its provinces, and releasing the country as a vassal. This is not cost-effective, but can be quite fun. [A few nations have hard-coded religion when you release them, but in general a new country gets the starting religion of its capital province]

E. Albright

March 15th, 2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Truper:
Are you aware of the fan-made mods? They went a long way toward fixing some of the problems in the original EFS. If you're interested, I can probably locate the site again - it been quite a few years since I was invilved with EFS - but it sure was a great game... I'm quite aware of them, but thanks for the offer. And yes, they did do a lot for balance (I for one prefered Hyperion). Tho' in that vain, I could have done (and did do) a lot for balance in a few minutes with a text editor...

fahdiz

March 15th, 2004, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fahdiz:
Well, this weekend I broke down and ordered EU2 (found it for $11 Online, couldn't find it in the bargain bins of the usual game stores I frequent)...so that'll be arriving soon. One quick question about EU2 - is it possible to mold the state religion of your nation of choice, or do you pretty much have to tow the line of recorded history?

For example: if I wanted a Catholic China or a Buddhist British Empire, could I do so in EU2? No - not without modding (which is easy as all event and all save files are plain text format for easy editing).

You can change between Catholic-Protestant-Reformed Protestant at will (though you suffer a bit of turmoil when doing so), but all other religion changes have to be either scripted (e.g. all Indian nations have a chance to become Sunni muslim through events) or forced. Sunni/Shia's can force-convert each other as can Catholics-Protestants-Reformed, and everybody can force-convert the pagans... (Though it is much more profitable to conquer them and send out the missionaries)

It is possible to create weird-religion vassal states, however, by conquering a country, converting its provinces, and releasing the country as a vassal. This is not cost-effective, but can be quite fun. [A few nations have hard-coded religion when you release them, but in general a new country gets the starting religion of its capital province] <hr /></blockquote>Excellent. Thank you, Peter, for the valuable information. I'm also glad to hear that the game is so easily moddable...that's outstanding!

Mostly I was thinking about in-game religion changes as opposed to starting with that particular religion...(i.e. China would start out Confuscianist/Buddhist, and I would eventually turn them Catholic), so I'm glad to know it's possible to do that as well, through various in-game means.

I'm excited! In the space of just a couple of months, I've found several new (well, new to me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) games, all because of one fantastic game (Dom II).

I'm thinking the upcoming Crusader Kings is my next target. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 15, 2004, 16:41: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

Peter Ebbesen

March 15th, 2004, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by fahdiz:
Excellent. Thank you, Peter, for the valuable information. I'm also glad to hear that the game is so easily moddable...that's outstanding!
I cannot but agree. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

The first thing you should do when you get EU2 is to download the latest official patch (1.07) and then the latest public beta patch (March 2nd, 2004, available from the Paradox EU2 forum) - and be prepared to treat the manual as a work of fiction - as the game has evolved considerably over the years since its release. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

There are FAQs covering most of the important topics and a friendly user community to help you when you run into problems anyhow.

fahdiz

March 15th, 2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
The first thing you should do when you get EU2 is to download the latest official patch (1.07) and then the latest public beta patch (March 2nd, 2004, available from the Paradox EU2 forum) - and be prepared to treat the manual as a work of fiction - as the game has evolved considerably over the years since its release. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Yes, the first thing I do upon acquiring a new game is to look for the latest patches. I signed up for the Paradox forums, but it's been a week and they haven't "activated" my account yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif Luckily, I can still read Posts and download from the site.

There are FAQs covering most of the important topics and a friendly user community to help you when you run into problems anyhow. From what I've seen, lurking on the aforementioned forums for a bit, this is definitely the case. Thanks again for the recommendations. Are you going to be getting Crusader Kings?