Ctis Desert Tombs

[Minrhael]

Is this another broken theme like the Jotunheim Utgard theme, or do I just not get it? 200 points and I get one reanimating leader who even after being made prophet can only cast level 4, not 5 unholy spells? Can't recruit any other reanimating leaders that I can see, but maybe I just don't understand death in the demo, first time I've tried it.

Hopefully the full game will arrive today or tomorrow and the manual will explain all of this to me, but feel free to answer in the meantime if you'd like, I'm terribly impatient http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks!

[MCArt]

You need to summon the other leaders, which happen to be undead, through the use of death magic.

Your most powerful undead priest is a Tomb King who is Unholy-4 and costs about 23 death gems.

[ March 19, 2004, 14:03: Message edited by: MCArt ]

[archaeolept]

yeah, first time I tried the theme I had a pretender w/out any death magic...

Anyways, while I wouldn't say it's broken, I would say it needs to be revamped. A little cheaper, and maybe another unit to make up for losing the water dancers (and swamp guards?), and having the usually amazing Lizard King be so useless (since he's no use for undead), and having had the starting Terror spell nixed.

so, try it again but w/ a death magic 4+ pretender. you can get undead production ramped up reasonably quickly.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Never underestimate the power of the Tomb Wyrms once you have got a few Tomb Kings reanimating more each turn - and having a domain that is hell to intruders is not too bad either.

EDIT: Mixed up Desert Tombs (the first part) and Miasma (the second part)

A steep price to pay, though.

[ March 19, 2004, 18:06: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
Never underestimate the power of the Tomb Wyrms once you have got a few Tomb Kings reanimating more each turn - and having a domain that is hell to intruders is not too bad either.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Desert Tombs isn't really hell on intruders. You're thinking about about Miasma, which diseases anything that isn't cold-blooded. Desert Tombs is merely a minor heat+1, death+1, innately. It's not a domain of total burnination like Ermor, which causes people to starve...but even Ermor's dominion is merely unwelcoming, rather than flat out hostile, like Miasma C'tis.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
Never underestimate the power of the Tomb Wyrms once you have got a few Tomb Kings reanimating more each turn - and having a domain that is hell to intruders is not too bad either.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Desert Tombs isn't really hell on intruders. You're thinking about about Miasma, which diseases anything that isn't cold-blooded.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right you are. I was thinking of the "aarrrghhhhh-my-troops-are-diseased-and-dropping-in-front-of-my-very-eyes" feeling of Miasma. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Kel]

Pfft, you end up getting disease after your troops starve in zero pop lands anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

At least you can clean up Miasma. Pretty hard to revive a 0 pop province http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I guess a random event that moves population there and a few hundred turns with growth scales ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Desert Tombs is merely a minor heat+1, death+1, innately.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heat 2, Death 2.

It's not a domain of total burnination like Ermor, which causes people to starve...but even Ermor's dominion is merely unwelcoming, rather than flat out hostile, like Miasma C'tis.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ermor's dominion totally destroys the usefulness of a province, while Miasma is easily cleared up.

[ March 19, 2004, 19:29: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[NTJedi]

Would be nice if Desert Tombs theme allowed you to recruit at least the level_1 unholy priests.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Kel:
Pfft, you end up getting disease after your troops starve in zero pop lands anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you can bring your own food, but nothing quite abolishes that "augh my troops are dropping dead in front of my very eyes" feeling of Miasma.

[Sindai]

I never understoof how Desert Tombs could cost so much more than any other theme in the game, yet appear to have few or no significant advantages over, say, Ashen Empire or almost any other theme you can name. Other than the really weak ones.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Sindai:
I never understoof how Desert Tombs could cost so much more than any other theme in the game, yet appear to have few or no significant advantages over, say, Ashen Empire or almost any other theme you can name. Other than the really weak ones. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well... It does allow for a nation with very strong undead summons and unholy power while retaining good living troops and strong holy magic.

[NTJedi]

Based on the purpose of the theme most would trade the holy priests for unholy priests.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Based on the purpose of the theme most would trade the holy priests for unholy priests. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What is the purpose of the theme?

[NTJedi]

I was under the impression the theme focused on death magic and the undead. At the start of the game the player who has chosen the theme starts with an unholy priest... yet cannot purchase anymore. With the scale tipping towards death magic and a title of desert tombs... being able to purchase unholy priests would seem more useful. That's just my opinion tho... perhaps one of the developers could provide a better explanation.

The purpose is something that NT feels it is, as opposed to as what it was created for http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

You can purchase Unholy Priests. By summoning them. But you can also use the living with the dead. Why would the ancient priests and kings of old need gold? They serve freely the one who binds them to them by power of magic.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:37: Message edited by: Zen ]

[NTJedi]

As I mentioned it was my opinion... I'm sure we all have different views on the good and evil of each race.


Anyone with death magic and death gems can summon unholy priests... the theme would seem more unique if they could purchase them as commanders since so few themes are able to.

Zen...
What race is not able to use the living with the undead?

[ March 19, 2004, 23:47: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

With the Exception of the Mound King as a Summon (which is hardly considered national specific) only Broken Empire Ermor, Carrion Woods and DT's use living national troops as well as Reanimators for their armies.

What other nations can reanimate with their initial summons and have the option of buying and using normal troops?

Just because you can summon undead units doesn't suddenly make the nation more 'deathlike'. A good example is BK and S&A. Mostly because of the ease of free troops with reanimation is why there is special consideration.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zen:
They serve freely the one who binds them to them by power of magic. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That doesn't sound like serving freely, except in the free-of-charge sense!

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Zen:
With the Exception of the Mound King as a Summon (which is hardly considered national specific) only Broken Empire Ermor, Carrion Woods and DT's use living national troops as well as Reanimators for their armies.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All the more reason desert tombs should be able to purchase unholy priests... just my opinion.

Originally posted by Zen:

What other nations can reanimate with their initial summons and have the option of buying and using normal troops?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">With desert tombs theme being able to purchase unholy priests... I believe it would add more variety to the game. Plus it would fit the theme.

Originally posted by Zen:

Just because you can summon undead units doesn't suddenly make the nation more 'deathlike'. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well being able to summon undead units certainly doesn't make it more 'lifelike'. Death and undead usually make a good match up for most games.

My opinion being able to purchase a cheap priest to summon Ghouls isn't all that important. The only nation that can do that now is BE and that's fine by me.

How would it add more variety?

It certainly doesn't make it more lifelike. But it makes it more lifelike than one that has a Huge Popkilling dominion like CW, AE, and SG so that if you take any positive scales you are signing yourself to unefficent use of points.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Zen:
The only nation that can do that now is BE and that's fine by me. How would it add more variety?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Didn't you just answer your own question. Having more then one nation being able to do this means more variety. And it doesn't have to be a cheap unholy priest... it could be whatever the developers feel is fair.

Originally posted by Zen:
It certainly doesn't make it more lifelike. But it makes it more lifelike than one that has a Huge Popkilling dominion like CW, AE, and SG so that if you take any positive scales you are signing yourself to unefficent use of points. [/QB]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since desert tombs theme needs a death scale of 2... having unholy priests would seem more appropiate especially since the race starts with one. Why is there only one... someone had to teach him these skills. It's just an idea I believe would make the theme more useful considering it has a high cost. Perhaps they could provide both holy and unholy... but that may be too much.

If you read the theme. I know it's a stretch, reading that is. It says that the Sauromancers reanimated those priests and priest-kings that were locked away in the desert tombs. Noone needed to teach them, they are/were dead and that is where they learned how to bless and function with the undead, in the realm of the dead.

I didn't answer my questions, it doesn't add variety at all, since one other nation can do it already. You want to make the only two living -non- pop killing dominion nations exactly the same?

[Scott Hebert]

Personally, I think Desert Tombs is costed appropriately. While I can have and have had large mobs of undead with Desert Tombs, you also get very nice heavy infantry and quite a few other benefits.

Here's a similar question. Why would you take the Lord of the Gates over the Prince of Death? The Prince of Death is strictly better... except that the Lord isn't Undead, and hence doesn't have the Undead vulnerabilities.

Another benefit that C'tis enjoys is one I've seen mentioned elsewhere, in that their Longdead (if you use them) have better protection than 'human' Longdead.

Anyway, just my impressions of Desert Tombs.

I don't think it's appropriate to the cost. It's slight expensive for my taste for a theme. For the harsh economic penalties it should cost less. The "free points" can then be converted into a slightly better blessing and thus the weakness of being neither fully dependant on undead nor living troops could be nulled since their only sacred troops are undead and sacred serpents (not the best unit in the world for a blessing).

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Zen:
If you read the theme. I know it's a stretch, reading that is.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is it possible for you to post without dropping flames ?? Do you have some hidden anger which you are unable to release? Please be more civilized with your Posts.

Originally posted by Zen:

It says that the Sauromancers reanimated those priests and priest-kings that were locked away in the desert tombs. Noone needed to teach them, they are/were dead and that is where they learned how to bless and function with the undead, in the realm of the dead.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes but again there is only ONE unholy priest. Desert tombs indicates more then one... and if so where are they? The gold cost of unholy priests could be explained as excavation costs. Maybe it could be random between holy and unholy... yet that may be too powerful.

Originally posted by Zen:

I didn't answer my questions, it doesn't add variety at all, since one other nation can do it already. You want to make the only two living -non- pop killing dominion nations exactly the same? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">First it would not change the entire nation... only one theme. As of right now only one theme can purchase unholy priests... why not add a second theme which can do so. I only recommended C'TIS since the desert tomb theme seems to fit.

[ March 20, 2004, 01:29: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Excavation? I thought the Saromancers were raising them from the dead which meant a gem cost. So you could have an Excavation cost of digging them up then a gem cost of bringing them to life. Sure. But since the game can't handle that, just gem cost works for me.

[NTJedi]

It's just an idea for the desert tombs theme...

Perhaps we'll see a new theme with the upcoming patch where unholy priests can be purchased.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
It's just an idea for the desert tombs theme...

Perhaps we'll see a new theme with the upcoming patch where unholy priests can be purchased. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is one. It's called Broken Empire Ermor.

[NTJedi]

I said a new theme where unholy priests can be purchased.
If you've never played the Broken Empire theme then for you it may be new.

[ March 20, 2004, 01:46: Message edited by: NTJedi ]