Scout Bloodhunting Nerf - New Numbers? [Archive]

Norfleet

April 7th, 2004, 05:44 PM

Scout hunting was apparently nerfed in 2.11, according to the patch notes, as non-blood mages are now worse at hunting for blood slaves.

How much worse? Saber, could you maybe run the numbers again?

Gandalf Parker

April 8th, 2004, 04:21 PM

(bump)
Anyone checked this out yet?

By the way, add --scoredump to your Illwinter icon. Thats a SWEET html it creates. I think I might like it as real numbers more than the moving line thing

Stormbinder

April 8th, 2004, 05:36 PM

Yes, I would liek to know it as well. In both of my current games I am playing blood-capable races (Abyssia and Jotuns) but using scouts for bloodhunting since it is more economical. I would like to know if it is time to change my hunting habbits.

archaeolept

April 8th, 2004, 06:03 PM

I'm guessing they're now half as effective..

so, yah, time to change over to real bloodhunters. Use those scouts for what they were intended - pack mules. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 08, 2004, 17:06: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

April 9th, 2004, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by archaeolept:
I'm guessing they're now half as effective..
After 400 tests : you're right, it is 10% now.
Fortunately the *base* chance for blood mages is still 20% (+20% for each level in blood, I've not tested the SDR).
After 200 hunts with scouts I've got 19 hits and 82 slaves.
After 200 hunts with Blood 1 mages I've got 82 hits and 455 slaves...
Cheers

Norfleet

April 9th, 2004, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Sunray_be:
Fortunately the *base* chance for blood mages is still 20% (+20% for each level in blood, I've not tested the SDR).If the base chance for a blood mage finding blood slaves is 20% per level of blood, does this mean a blood-5 mage, or a blood 3 mage with an SDR, which is supposed to be +2 blood for hunting, will always find blood slaves? How does population of province affect this?

April 9th, 2004, 08:39 PM

If the base chance for a blood mage finding blood slaves is 20% per level of blood, does this mean a blood-5 mage, or a blood 3 mage with an SDR, which is supposed to be +2 blood for hunting, will always find blood slaves? How does population of province affect this? I've not tested up to level 5, but this should be 100% indeed (maybe a small "fumble" chance even for high level mages ?). Do you use 270gp Warlocks to hunt slaves, anyway ?
My tests were based on provinces with 8,000 to 12,000 pop. Slave Hunt in larger provinces or in the capital seems too dangerous (possible unrest burst) and too expensive (gold loss).

In another previous test on a 5,000 pop province I've seen that my hunters were slightly less successful (about -20% slaves). But my test was limited on this point.
Unrest above 50 seems to make slave hunt harder, and much harder above 100.

Cheers

Graeme Dice

April 9th, 2004, 08:57 PM

So, if we go by Saber Cherry's previous numbers, it now takes 8 scouts to be as effective as a single blood 1 mage with a SDR. Looks like that just about evens out the costs for most of the blood mages out there so that they are the most effective hunters.

April 10th, 2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
So, if we go by Saber Cherry's previous numbers, it now takes 8 scouts to be as effective as a single blood 1 mage with a SDR. Looks like that just about evens out the costs for most of the blood mages out there so that they are the most effective hunters. Dont forget the unrest effect. 8 scouts should make about 25 unrest points in the province. 1 mage with a rod should make about probably less than 10 points. A big difference if you take the gold loss (and the patrolers' price) into acount.
And the upkeep cost of most blood mages is halved since they are sacred (Warlock Apprentice, Pandemoniacs and Hags are an exception).
Cheers

Stormbinder

April 10th, 2004, 12:01 PM

So let's say you are playing Abyssia and using warlock apprentice (blood2 mage) for bloodhunting. How many mages (with rods) you should have per one 8K-12K province? 1? 2?

Up until now I was using 7-8 scouts per province for bloodhunting (even with blood nations) - that would allow me to have zero tax and close to zero unrest without patrolling. I don'tlike patrolling my blodhunting sites, since it kills a lot of people and patrols cost money to maintain. Is it efficient tactic or do most people patrol their bloodhunting provinces? If so how heavely?

Norfleet

April 10th, 2004, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Up until now I was using 7-8 scouts per province for bloodhunting (even with blood nations) - that would allow me to have zero tax and close to zero unrest without patrolling. I don'tlike patrolling my blodhunting sites, since it kills a lot of people and patrols cost money to maintain. Is it efficient tactic or do most people patrol their bloodhunting provinces? If so how heavely? I tend to patrol my provinces as Mictlan: Even under patrolled hunting, with growth scale, the population will get larger. One advantage is that Mictlan can patrol with slaves, which are free of upkeep and can be raised by Tribal and Priest Kings free of charge: Tribal Kings have the approximate upkeep value of a scout, being $40, but sacred. Thus Mictlan can afford to hunt without giving up tax income or paying exhorbitant sums in patrollers: I find that a ratio of two priests per full Tribal King makes a good hunting ratio for patrolled hunts.

Graeme Dice

April 10th, 2004, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
[QB]One advantage is that Mictlan can patrol with slaves, which are free of upkeep and can be raised by Tribal and Priest Kings free of charge:I believe that slaves had an upkeep of about 0.067 gold per unit. This may have changed in the latest patch, but they aren't completely free.

Norfleet

April 10th, 2004, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I believe that slaves had an upkeep of about 0.067 gold per unit. This may have changed in the latest patch, but they aren't completely free. Hmm, you're right, they do seem to have some upkeep. It's pretty inexpensive, though, since that means they're worth about $1.

Tuna-Fish

April 11th, 2004, 01:30 AM

I dont like patrolling because it will kill of the popultion of the province.

In my experience, 2 warlock apprentices with sdr in a ~10k province with 0 tax is optimum: They get 15-20 slaves a turn and unrest stays at 0. One good thing is that the income is very constant, also, the population drop is minimal and easily counterable by growth.

Also note that high dominion lowers unrest, so bloodhuntsites should have a temple. This can easily be used for blood sacrifice for abysia and mictlan to lift dominion to max very fast to minimize unrest. At higher dom levels a province can support more hunters.

Also, the blood-1 priest the blood of humans theme has seems very good for hunting with sdr: at price 100 and holy it is very cheap to maintain and it gets decent amount of slaves.

Kristoffer O

April 12th, 2004, 12:14 PM

IIRC the new numbers are:

10 + (40 x blood) %

Numbers found are as before I believe.

CayseP

April 12th, 2004, 07:11 PM

How does the size of the population enter the equation?

Kristoffer O

April 12th, 2004, 07:32 PM

No idea. JK might know.

Edit: JK's still on vacation so I made a check in the code.

Basically:
if 1d100 less than (10 + 40xblood) and 1d5000 less than population and 1d400 less than unrest

effect is d6(oe)+blood

Thus lvl 2 blood mages are probably the best deal.

[ April 12, 2004, 18:40: Message edited by: Kristoffer O ]

Graeme Dice

April 12th, 2004, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Basically:
if 1d100 less than (10 + 40xblood) and 1d5000 less than population and 1d400 less than unrest

effect is d6(oe)+blood
Thank you for the precious hard data. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Kel

April 12th, 2004, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

if 1d100 less than (10 + 40xblood) and 1d5000 less than population and 1d400 less than unrest
Was that supposed to be 1d400 *more* than unrest ?

- Kel

Yossar

April 12th, 2004, 08:46 PM

Population should be "more than" also.

Does that mean there's no difference between blood hunting a 5001 population province and a 20,000 population province?

Graeme Dice

April 12th, 2004, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Yossar:
Population should be "more than" also.That wouldn't make any sense, since that would require that 1d5000 be more than 20,000 people in a large province.

Yossar

April 12th, 2004, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yossar:
Population should be "more than" also.That wouldn't make any sense, since that would require that 1d5000 be more than 20,000 people in a large province. <hr /></blockquote>You're right. I don't know what I was thinking.

It's still interesting that size of province has no bearing on number of slaves in that formula. If that's correct I guess I'll start hunting in smaller provinces from now on.

Inigo Montoya

April 13th, 2004, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

Basically:
if 1d100 less than (10 + 40xblood) and 1d5000 less than population and 1d400 less than unrest

effect is d6(oe)+blood
Thanks for this information! Can you also enlighten us on the unrest generated per searcher?

You said the Level 2 Blood Hunter was the best deal, but wouldn't the best be a Level 1 Blood Hunter with a Sanguine Dousing Rod?

Does the Sanguine Dousing Rod's +2 to blood hunting help for the effect, i.e. number of blood slaves, or does it only help for the % chance to find slaves?

Thanks so much!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Stormbinder

April 13th, 2004, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Yossar:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yossar:
Population should be "more than" also.That wouldn't make any sense, since that would require that 1d5000 be more than 20,000 people in a large province. <hr /></blockquote>You're right. I don't know what I was thinking.

It's still interesting that size of province has no bearing on number of slaves in that formula. If that's correct I guess I'll start hunting in smaller provinces from now on. <hr /></blockquote>Actually Yossar was partly correct. According to this formula _there is_ no difference between 5001 and 20000 province. That's strange.

PDF

April 13th, 2004, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by Kel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

if 1d100 less than (10 + 40xblood) and 1d5000 less than population and 1d400 less than unrest
Was that supposed to be 1d400 *more* than unrest ?

- Kel <hr /></blockquote>It means that you have Unrest/400 chance of blowing it and find no slave... Rationale is that unrest in provinces makes hunting harder.

Looks like best hunt situation is a Blood1 mage + SDR in a low unrest 5-7k pop province http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Success near guaranteed, avg 6+ slaves/turn
OTOH a non-blood hunter (scout..) only has 10% of finding 3+ slaves, that's a 0.3 average.

Pocus

April 13th, 2004, 11:53 AM

is the SDR still counting as +2 levels for a blood mage?

Kristoffer O

April 13th, 2004, 04:05 PM

SDR +1 (since 2.06 or something).

Kristoffer O

April 13th, 2004, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
According to this formula _there is_ no difference between 5001 and 20000 province. That's strange. No, it's not strange. There is absolutely no way a strange looking man would manage to knock on every door and point an even stranger looking stick at the soon to be married daughter of the surprised farmer opening the door in a province with more than 5000 inhabitants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Peter Ebbesen

April 13th, 2004, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stormbinder:
According to this formula _there is_ no difference between 5001 and 20000 province. That's strange. No, it's not strange. There is absolutely no way a strange looking man would manage to knock on every door and point an even stranger looking stick at the soon to be married daughter of the surprised farmer opening the door in a province with more than 5000 inhabitants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>You know, there really ought to be a small risk that a bloodhunter would end up with a pitchfork in his forehead...

Chris Byler

April 13th, 2004, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stormbinder:
According to this formula _there is_ no difference between 5001 and 20000 province. That's strange. No, it's not strange. There is absolutely no way a strange looking man would manage to knock on every door and point an even stranger looking stick at the soon to be married daughter of the surprised farmer opening the door in a province with more than 5000 inhabitants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>You know, there really ought to be a small risk that a bloodhunter would end up with a pitchfork in his forehead... <hr /></blockquote>Especially if he hunts without bodyguards. You send a 9 hp, 9 str, practically unarmed (maybe a dagger) mage out to look for blood slaves and he never has to face outraged fathers or potential husbands? Now, if he brought a bodyguard of Spine Devils with him, I can understand that his efforts would be unlikely to be resisted. But otherwise, they ought to face outraged relatives fairly often (counts as an assassination attempt) and if unrest is high, full-grown lynch mobs. Except maybe if there is a strong order dominion. And, of course, there's always the possibility that your chosen victim is the next Rhianne the Heroine...

IIRC, there's even a message you can get while blood hunting in high unrest provinces that says "the hunting has become difficult and dangerous"... but it isn't true. Nobody fights back.

But it's probably a little late to introduce this without throwing off blood hunting balance. Maybe for Dominions 3.

Kristoffer O

April 13th, 2004, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Especially if he hunts without bodyguards. You send a 9 hp, 9 str, practically unarmed (maybe a dagger) mage out to look for blood slaves and he never has to face outraged fathers or potential husbands? Now, if he brought a bodyguard of Spine Devils with him, I can understand that his efforts would be unlikely to be resisted. But otherwise, they ought to face outraged relatives fairly often (counts as an assassination attempt) and if unrest is high, full-grown lynch mobs. Except maybe if there is a strong order dominion. And, of course, there's always the possibility that your chosen victim is the next Rhianne the Heroine...

IIRC, there's even a message you can get while blood hunting in high unrest provinces that says "the hunting has become difficult and dangerous"... but it isn't true. Nobody fights back.

But it's probably a little late to introduce this without throwing off blood hunting balance. Maybe for Dominions 3. Defenitively worth considering http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yossar

April 13th, 2004, 09:04 PM

I'm not sure if it's just changed recently but this thread is proving everything I've ever read about blood hunting wrong. SDR is only +1 and the ideal province is size 5000-6000. Interesting.

Kel

April 13th, 2004, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

if 1d100 less than (10 + 40xblood) and 1d5000 less than population and 1d400 less than unrest
Was that supposed to be 1d400 *more* than unrest ?

- Kel <hr /></blockquote>It means that you have Unrest/400 chance of blowing it and find no slave... Rationale is that unrest in provinces makes hunting harder.
<hr /></blockquote>Ahm, if you get slaves when [other conditions] and 1d400 is less than unrest, than you would want 401+ unrest, no ?

- Kel

[ April 13, 2004, 22:40: Message edited by: Kel ]

April 14th, 2004, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
SDR +1 (since 2.06 or something). Did you also changed the Fountain of Blood (it had +4 I believe) ?
TIA

Stormbinder

April 15th, 2004, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by Sunray_be:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
SDR +1 (since 2.06 or something). Did you also changed the Fountain of Blood (it had +4 I believe) ?
TIA <hr /></blockquote>Ok maybe I have missed it, but what is the formula for how much unrest the bloodutning cause? Is it alos indep of the province size (once province population is larger than 5000)?

And it looks like I have been wasting a lot of money in my bloodhunting efforts, simce I always tried to hunt in 8K-10K provinces, while the ideal one is around 6K. Oh well, good to know it nevertheless.

PhilD

April 15th, 2004, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Stormbinder:
According to this formula _there is_ no difference between 5001 and 20000 province. That's strange. No, it's not strange. There is absolutely no way a strange looking man would manage to knock on every door and point an even stranger looking stick at the soon to be married daughter of the surprised farmer opening the door in a province with more than 5000 inhabitants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>Sure, but that's because pointing the stick at the soon to be married daughter is rather unlikely to result in finding a blood slave. The smart hunters (or those with the SDR) look for the younger sisters... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

(OK, we've been discussing sacrificing virgin girls to summon demons for months, and still no crazies have showed up requiring this board be closed down; maybe if we mentions the slaves are most likely young children in addition, we'll have better luck http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif )

PhilD

April 15th, 2004, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
But otherwise, they ought to face outraged relatives fairly often (counts as an assassination attempt) and if unrest is high, full-grown lynch mobs. Except maybe if there is a strong order dominion. And, of course, there's always the possibility that your chosen victim is the next Rhianne the Heroine...
Hey, they're not victims. They're the chosen ones, who will soon have the privilege to spread the faith of the local god.

Remember, these people worship you. That strange-looking dude with the stick is a servant of the living god...

April 15th, 2004, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
what is the formula for how much unrest the bloodutning cause?I'd tested that for dom1
http://www.freewebs.com/sunraybe/blood.html

The unrest is quite random... 3 points on average +1/slave found.

Cheers

Kristoffer O

April 15th, 2004, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Sunray_be:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
SDR +1 (since 2.06 or something). Did you also changed the Fountain of Blood (it had +4 I believe) ?
TIA <hr /></blockquote>Don't think so.

Chris Byler

April 16th, 2004, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by PhilD:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris Byler:
But otherwise, they ought to face outraged relatives fairly often (counts as an assassination attempt) and if unrest is high, full-grown lynch mobs. Except maybe if there is a strong order dominion. And, of course, there's always the possibility that your chosen victim is the next Rhianne the Heroine...
Hey, they're not victims. They're the chosen ones, who will soon have the privilege to spread the faith of the local god.

Remember, these people worship you. That strange-looking dude with the stick is a servant of the living god... <hr /></blockquote>They don't necessarily worship you - you can hunt outside your dominion. But you're right up to a point - if this type of event is ever introduced, it should be less likely if your God has strong dominion in that province.

And if you want crazy people to show up here, I suggest casting Imprint Souls. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif What's the province number for this board?

Graeme Dice

April 16th, 2004, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
What's the province number for this board? The forum number is 74.

The_Tauren13

July 27th, 2004, 03:00 AM

.

deccan

August 5th, 2004, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by PhilD:
Hey, they're not victims. They're the chosen ones, who will soon have the privilege to spread the faith of the local god.
If they were really willing victoms, why would blood hunting increase unrest?

Anyway, wouldn't it be nice to make a sticky listing threads like this, that is, more or less definitive explanations of specific gameplay mechanics. It would sure be a great help to newbies.