Ermor themes, too strong? [Archive]

Graeme Dice

April 10th, 2004, 01:24 AM

There are several things that you must remember when dealing with the two undead themes of Ermor. The first is that they will have more troops than you. To overcome this, you must have some way of dealing with large quantities of undead with low magic resistance. This can be done by having an force of a dozen or so of the 50 gold, holy 2, independent priests. Make sure that you have a screen of high morale or unbreakable heavy troops in front of your priests to protect them.

The second thing is that you need some way to prevent your troops from starving. Nature magic is the solution here, with cauldrons of broth, endless wineskins, and summer swords. Wineskins can be built by any nature 1 mage, and should be put on scouts who will hide and just provide food for your troops.

The third thing is that you must be able to deal with the Ermorian pretender. This will likely be a Vampire Queen, as it is one of the most effective combat pretenders out there. banishment will not help you here, since a pretender will have lots of magic resistance. The way to win here is with magic. Don't just throw normal troops at it or they will all be lost on the various damage shields they have. Hopefully the pretender is not wearing an elemental armor, or your options become rather limited. If they are not immune to all elemental magic, then the best way to kill them is with armor negating spells like thunder strike, orb lightning, and incinerate. Lots of astral 2 mages set to cast paralysis can help if the SC (supercombatant) is has a magic resistance of 25 or lower, but above that your chances of success are extremely low. If the unit is immune to all elemental damage, then your best bet is to try and use death magic against it. Dust to dust, and wither bones are two spells that cause armor negating damage to undead and can be quite effective.

Graeme Dice

April 10th, 2004, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by Cohen:
Soul Gate troops are "Ethereal". So there's little chance to be struck by common weapons.Your troops have a 75% chance that their weapons will not affect the ethereal troops. Of course, their weapons only have a 54% chance of effecting your troops if you have a magic resistance of 10 on average. Use the enchantment spell antimagic, and this becomes much lower. You also only need to hit their dispossed spirits once to kill them. Magic is extremely effective against soul gate's troops, since they all have no protection, and magical effects ignore etherealness. Blade wind, for example, is brutally effective.

Yossar

April 10th, 2004, 03:06 AM

The biggest problem with Ermor is that nobody wants to attack them because:

1) You have to make a special anti-undead force that probably won't integrate all that well into an army to face more conventional opponents.

2) You need some way of supplying your troops since Ermors lands are pretty barren. This generally requires at least a Nature mage or two.

3) Your rewards for defeating Ermor are less than for defeating other nations. Provinces with no population produce no money. The 10 death gem castle is nice, though.

Ermor isn't overpowered. They have tons of units but they're all pretty weak. The problem is that nobody wants to attack them so they sometimes get a lot of time to build up. If you don't attack them early you could be in trouble.

[ April 10, 2004, 02:08: Message edited by: Yossar ]

Nagot Gick Fel

April 10th, 2004, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by Yossar:
The biggest problem with Ermor is that nobody wants to attack them because:That's a theory. In practice, Ermor is by far the nation that gets attacked the earlier. So there must be something wrong in your reasoning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Kel

April 10th, 2004, 04:18 AM

The only thing I hate about 'em, personally (and I am not experienced enough to really comment on balance with much authority) is that they get massive free design points by taking negative scales that don't affect them and then make unusually strong pretenders with it.

I mean, the other things are annoying, too, about not getting much from their territories but the pop being dead is kind of innate flavor of the nation. Of course, I think it would have been nice if ignoring certain aspects of the game (morale, supply, population, upkeep, etc.) had been spread out among more nations (like a nation where all their troops are constructs and don't need supply, an R'lyeh theme where every baseline troop had the lobo advantage, etc.), I would hate to take away too much from one of the more original nations, if that makes any sense.

- Kel

Yossar

April 10th, 2004, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yossar:
The biggest problem with Ermor is that nobody wants to attack them because:That's a theory. In practice, Ermor is by far the nation that gets attacked the earlier. So there must be something wrong in your reasoning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>Well, nobody ever wants to attack them. It's just something that someone's gotta do that gets harder and more unappealing the longer you wait.

Stormbinder

April 10th, 2004, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by Yossar:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yossar:
The biggest problem with Ermor is that nobody wants to attack them because:That's a theory. In practice, Ermor is by far the nation that gets attacked the earlier. So there must be something wrong in your reasoning http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>Well, nobody ever wants to attack them. It's just something that someone's gotta do that gets harder and more unappealing the longer you wait. <hr /></blockquote>Agreed. Although Ermor are still very powerfull, especially in the hands of expereinced Ermor player (like Norfleet for example, who likes to combine it with massive clam-hoarding tactic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

What I dislike about them is not the fact that they are unbeatable (something that they clearly are not), but the fact that when you have Ermor in game more often than not all of his neigbors have to go after them, so the game deteriorate to "every nation vs Ermor" style until Ermor is dealed with, instead of offering 17x16=272 dfferent combinations of other nations figthing each other. For me it gets old very fast.

[ April 10, 2004, 04:27: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Cohen

April 10th, 2004, 06:38 AM

So on if the real problem is an SC Pretender modify scales for Ermor ... so that Ermor won't gain any points from bad scales ...

Ermor shall have at least the same points of a commond pretender for making his own.

Norfleet

April 10th, 2004, 06:49 AM

Duncanish

April 10th, 2004, 06:54 AM

So on if the real problem is an SC Pretender modify scales for Ermor ... so that Ermor won't gain any points from bad scales ...
Personally, I think it's pretty well balanced as is. The only real reason to gang up on Ermor is to keep him in check. If not, all his provinces, which should eventually be your provinces, will be devoid of people. Nerfing the nations Pretenders wouldn't help, since the population would still die off.

Catquiet

April 10th, 2004, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by Cohen:
Don't forget the Pretender with 800-900 magic points. Speaking of magic, Ermor gets mages with narrow magic (3D + 1R) and they can't recruit their mages as quickly as other nations can.

This gives Ermor slow research compared to most other nations and low gold income means Ermor has trouble hiring independant sages to help out.

Ermor needs a magically powerful pretender to compensate for the fact that they can't put as many mages in the field as other nations.

Norfleet

April 10th, 2004, 09:50 AM

Ermor is not as strong as many would believe. Here's a breakdown of Ermor, from the perspective of an avid Ermor player:

Pros:
Receives many free troops and does not pay upkeep on them.
Defiles land, making it inhospitable to invaders - invaders will starve, or at very least, gain little for taking a depopulated province.
Does not require gold or resources to recruit troops.
Unaffected by negative scales and can spend many points on pretender and strong dominion.
Can have enormous quantities of troops.
Units do not eat - supply is never a problem - cannot starve if sieged.
Lack of gold economy combined with ubiquity of troops makes hit-and-run raiding attacks against Ermor largely meaningless.
Can besiege forts easily: Large numbers quickly tear down any defense.
Large numbers of troops spawning across empire makes fighting on multiple fronts easy and even enjoyable.
AE - Units are mindless and cannot be routed.
SG - Units are ethereal and difficult to hit normally
SG - difficult to besiege: Not mindless and can easily repair fortresses due to numbers.

Cons:
National mages are one-dimensional and not very flexible - Difficult to summon units other than more undead.
Lack of population gives poor gold/res income -Difficult to recruit independent mages, nearly impossible to recruit independent troops.
Units all share single weakness which can be specifically targetted by many spells.
Ermor cannot preach effectively: Ermorian priests are unable to preach, and recruited independent priests will lose a rank of priestly power and become unholy - ability to preach suffers accordingly.
Troops spawning in random places are difficult to gather.
AE - Units are exceptionally weak and easily killed; will dissolve without a fight if commanders are not present or slain
SG - Units suffer from ubiquitous 0 protection and are highly susceptible to magical damage.
Does not have any effective means of dealing with opposing undead that will not kill more of your own troops!

It is popularly believed that if Ermor is left uncontained, it will grow to be unstoppable. This is not inherently true, or at least more true, of Ermor: All nations, if left unchecked, will reach a point where stopping them becomes very difficult. Ermor's seemingly exponential army growth makes it seem very intimidating, but an Ermorian army is one-dimensional and can often be killed in enormous quantity without even trying: Many spells specifically target the Ermorian legion: Casting Purgatory can make your dominion nearly impenetrable as any Ermorian legion entering will take absolutely massive casualties for every turn spent in your dominion. Solar Brilliance can annihilate entire armies of undead in in a matter of rounds. Even conventional spells can be used to devastating effect: Ermor's troops are often so numerous that it is nearly impossible for even a one-eyed Abysian to fail to hit something, and they are weak enough that most spells will kill or or inflict great harm.

Assuming that you have researched the spells that will trivially allow you to dispatch even huge hordes of undead, and can employ them successfully, the only threat you face is trying to fend off attacks which can very easily come from all directions at once. However, due to the lack of variety in Ermor's magic, it is unlikely that any but a few attacks will be supported with anything other than death magic, which is very limited in what it will affect and often acts slowly.

The other threat you face is the Ermor pretender, who will likely be a very potent SC: However, if it tows chaff around, it will be subject to auto-routing when in enemy dominion, and since Ermor lacks the ability to effectively preach, especially by stealth, it has difficulty pushing dominion into areas that have strongly opposing enemy dominions: If your dominion is weak, however, you must shore it up with priests and temples, or Ermor's temple spread will quickly overwhelm yours and ruin your lands. Having many priests preaching out Ermor's dominion also has other collateral benefits on defense: Banish can erase huge tracts of undead, particularly Ashen Empire undead, with their far insuperior MR. Ermor's pretender is only really dangerous if you are fighting in Ermorian dominion, and killing it with one of many spells that work well against SCs (Drain Life, Petrify, etc.) can turn the tables if it attacks without support or loses all of its support.

In short, it is absolutely NOT necessary to form a massive coalition and turn the game into a gigantic anti-undead crusade: It is perfectly possible for most nations to take on an Ermor of relatively equal size unassisted...but it requires specific knowledge of how to best exploit Ermor's weaknesses: A straightforward, hamhanded tactic that works on the normal living races can fail disastrously against Ermor and leave you greatly weakened. Don't let yourself be goaded into a rash campaign: Act with patience and prudence, not a knee-jerk reaction of "Ermor must die!". Ermor, even well-developed, can be driven back by a methodical approach.

lonewolf

April 10th, 2004, 10:25 AM

...and that, ladies and gentlemen, must be the best summary of Ermor I've ever ever seen, lurking here.

Norfleet, why not go play something else with equal dedication and report likewise? I think it would be an excellent sequel! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Vynd

April 10th, 2004, 12:03 PM

Another thing I've been noticing about Ermor is that its gem income isn't all that impressive. It can find Death Gems easily enough, if they are out there. But it needs all the Death Gems it can get for summoning more leaders.

Beyond that, all you're going to get are the things your death 3, random 1 mages can find, and whatever you're willing to devote your pretender to searching for. Granted, your Pretender will be an excellent mage so it can probably find lots of magic sites, but that involves a lot of turns devoted to moving around and searching, when you could really use its help in fighting, researching, casting rituals, etc.

Gandalf Parker

April 10th, 2004, 02:26 PM

A nation can be as powerful as they want and still not be unbalancing to Dominions2 as a whole. It can seem unfairly balanced in one game such as Ermor vs Ulm.

But as long as Marignon is a selectable nation, Ermor is not an automatic winner. Marignon doesnt have the problem of investing in more priests than they can use later. They almost cant avoid making lots of priests. And fire magic. For as powerful as Ermor seems, Marignon is an equal in exactly the right areas. But then, Marignon has trouble going against Ulm.

So balance is achieved. Not in nation against nation (to do that would require that all pieces be equal but just with different colors like a game of chess or risk). Ermor is a threat to Ulm, while Ulm can roll over Marignon, and Marignon can bLast Ermor (rock, paper, scissors). It gets deeper than that of course with 17 nations (and another on the way) but the basis is there. Any of the nations can seem out of balance against certain nations, but have another nations seem almost ready-built to counter their best tactics. Pros and Cons.

Oh yeah, and I agree. Norfleet, that is an excellent write-up on Ermor.

[ April 10, 2004, 13:27: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Endoperez

April 10th, 2004, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
It gets deeper than that of course with 17 nations (and another on the way) but the basis is there.
Is the "new water nation" really a nation or is it "just" a new theme for Pangaea? Or are you talking about something else?

Gandalf Parker

April 10th, 2004, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Endoperez:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
It gets deeper than that of course with 17 nations (and another on the way) but the basis is there.
Is the "new water nation" really a nation or is it "just" a new theme for Pangaea? Or are you talking about something else? <hr /></blockquote>If I remember correctly Kristoffer referred to it as a 3rd water nation. Ive modified my map selection criteria (http://www.dom2minions.com/maps.shtml) to include maps which have 3 equal-sized oceans in preparation. Although of course we have no idea how long it will be before it shows up.

Chris Byler

April 10th, 2004, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Cohen:
So on if the real problem is an SC Pretender modify scales for Ermor ... so that Ermor won't gain any points from bad scales ...

Ermor shall have at least the same points of a commond pretender for making his own. A simpler solution would be to increase the cost of the undead themes (Living Ermor can't ignore bad scales), *if* they really are a problem. I don't think they are - AE/SG have large weaknesses to offset their strengths. Their main trick that's hard to counter is an undead supercombatant god, and it's possible that there should be more and/or better counters to undead supercombatant gods; but that isn't limited to dead Ermors although it may be most severe with them. (They would also be counters to undead supercombatant Wraith Centurions and Vampire Counts too, of course.) It's also very possible that the Vampire Queen and/or Lich Queen should cost more points - this would leave fewer points for their magical powers, even in the hands of an undead Ermor.

Anyway, undead Ermor can't ignore all bad scales: drain is very bad, misfortune is still bad although not as bad as for living nations. They pretty much rely on luck/magic to get a half decent gem income. They do benefit from cold (chill auras) and death (starve the living), and pretty much ignore turmoil and sloth, though.

Graeme Dice

April 10th, 2004, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
It's also very possible that the Vampire Queen and/or Lich Queen should cost more points - this would leave fewer points for their magical powers, even in the hands of an undead Ermor.I think that the Lich Queen is okay the way she is, as she doesn't have any modifiers that make her much harder to kill in melee combat.

Norfleet

April 10th, 2004, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by autolycus:
...and that, ladies and gentlemen, must be the best summary of Ermor I've ever ever seen, lurking here.

Norfleet, why not go play something else with equal dedication and report likewise? I think it would be an excellent sequel! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm very fond of Mictlan, too, but nobody's complaining Mictlan is overpowered, even though I find it to be every bit as potent as Ermor: Sun Priests with Jade Knives can very quickly demolish enemy dominion and replace it with your own.

Kel

April 10th, 2004, 06:25 PM

Nice summary.

Not sure I agree with the conclusion that you don't need to deal with Ermor immediately (whether by allying or eliminating) but that's another story.

One thing. As someone referred to, another pro might be that they are all poor amphibians and can take indie water provinces early on without forging/ichythids/etc.

- Kel

Norfleet

April 10th, 2004, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Kel:
One thing. As someone referred to, another pro might be that they are all poor amphibians and can take indie water provinces early on without forging/ichythids/etc.This is true of Soul Gate. Ashen Empire does not have this strength in full: Censors are not amphibious (although they will happily spawn in provinces with underwater fortresses and immediately drown), being that they seem to be water-soluble. Archbishops are also incapable of entering the water. Ghouls, the only non-mindless AE Ermor unit, are not amphibious either, and must be left on land.

All this means that AE Ermor is extremely susceptible to R'lyeh undersea, because all the mindbLasts will strike the relatively weak mound kings, which, due to their less than stellar MR, will quickly die and leave the forces without commanders.

SG Ermor is better at this, as all SG troops and commanders are amphibious.

In all cases, their poor amphibiousness will give underwater priests lots of time to perform their priestings, and Ermor is unable to construct castles undersea, so will not be able to hold its undersea provinces effectively unless the pretender or a recruited Indy can cast Living Castle.

Kel

April 10th, 2004, 07:01 PM

Ok, I just know that I see ermor in sea provinces earlier on where most other land nations aren't. I figured that was a pro http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

E. Albright

April 10th, 2004, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Endoperez:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
It gets deeper than that of course with 17 nations (and another on the way) but the basis is there.
Is the "new water nation" really a nation or is it "just" a new theme for Pangaea? Or are you talking about something else? <hr /></blockquote>If I remember correctly Kristoffer referred to it as a 3rd water nation. <hr /></blockquote>And if I remember correctly, even if it were "just a theme", it wouldn't be for Pangaea. I believe that Kristoffer had stated that its pre-national orgins were as an Atlantian theme...

[Indeed I do. To wit, the Kristoffer quote in question (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=000839#000007) ...]

[ April 10, 2004, 18:12: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

Despayre

April 10th, 2004, 08:50 PM

Wow norfleet, you just summed up why I play ermor all the time. Incredible analysis.

I first tried ermor to try and learn the game, and havent been able to pick a different nation since:)

Yossar

April 10th, 2004, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
All this means that AE Ermor is extremely susceptible to R'lyeh undersea, because all the mindbLasts will strike the relatively weak mound kings, which, due to their less than stellar MR, will quickly die and leave the forces without commanders.With the new way paralysis works I'm not sure that's still the case. I could be wrong but it seems a lot harder to kill stuff with mind bLast now.

Graeme Dice

April 10th, 2004, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by Yossar:
With the new way paralysis works I'm not sure that's still the case. I could be wrong but it seems a lot harder to kill stuff with mind bLast now. Mound kings only have 7 hitpoints when they are created, and a MR of 13, so it's not very hard for an Illithid force to deal with them. They only need to overcome the MR check 7 times to kill it as each mindbLast does 1 damage.

Norfleet

April 10th, 2004, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Yossar:
With the new way paralysis works I'm not sure that's still the case. I could be wrong but it seems a lot harder to kill stuff with mind bLast now. Paralysis of the Mound King is irrelevant: It doesn't matter if the mound king remains paralyzed or not: His threat value isn't because he can move around and fight. You want him dead because without him, all of the undead will become useless and automatically die.

Since the undead are mindless, all of your squidheads will concentrate their fire on the mound kings, which will likely be the primary Ermor commanders for the Ashen Empire underwater, as Archbishops and Censors are not aquatic, and Dusk Elders and Spectators are far too valuable to be squandered on such a mission, and certainly are not likely to be present in sufficient numbers to significantly alter this balance.

Graeme Dice

April 10th, 2004, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Ermor cannot preach effectively: Ermorian priests are unable to preach, and recruited independent priests will lose a rank of priestly power and become unholy - ability to preach suffers accordingly.Which brings up a question about the cradle game we're playing in. How on earth did my dominion go from positive to -9 in a particular province in one turn?

Norfleet

April 10th, 2004, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
How on earth did my dominion go from positive to -9 in a particular province in one turn? What did you have as your dominion strength, and how many temples do you have? Was anybody preaching? I'm not sure how, exactly, dominion radiates outwards from temples, if the provinces around it also contain temples and every province for several hops is max dominion...and contains more temples. I have an absolute buttload of temples....it's possible that a dominion spread check into a neighboring province simply continues to ripple outwards if the neighboring provinces cannot hold more dominion: If your dominion is poorly reinforced and you do not have many temples (and my scouts sure don't see very many temples), your dominion may not be equal to the task of fighting off a shoving match.

And I do have a lot of temples. It's not like I have much else to spend my money on.

Graeme Dice

April 10th, 2004, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
What did you have as your dominion strength, and how many temples do you have? Was anybody preaching?There were four seraphines preaching in an adjacent province, and a temple one over with dom strength 7, so it seemed really strange to me. i think that game's just about over anyways, since there's absolutely no gold anywhere on that map.

Yossar

April 10th, 2004, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yossar:
With the new way paralysis works I'm not sure that's still the case. I could be wrong but it seems a lot harder to kill stuff with mind bLast now. Mound kings only have 7 hitpoints when they are created, and a MR of 13, so it's not very hard for an Illithid force to deal with them. They only need to overcome the MR check 7 times to kill it as each mindbLast does 1 damage. <hr /></blockquote>So damage is the same? It seemed like Illithids were doing less damge now, but I have a bad memory so I could be totally wrong.

Jack Simth

April 11th, 2004, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Which brings up a question about the cradle game we're playing in. How on earth did my dominion go from positive to -9 in a particular province in one turn? I've only played the demo, but occasionally, the engine burps when it processes a turn - Once, playing Abyssa, I got a unholy-4 fire-3 devil commander off of a soul contract on the exact same turn one of my priest-4 fire-3 commanders died from a horror attacking him due to one of the soul contracts he was carrying; I only saw it happen once, but it happened.

Also, one option: It appears that pretenders, prophets, home provinces, and temples have a secondary dominion spread effect than just the area right around the pretender, prophet, home province, or temples - the "conVersion rate" - it appears to act by adding dominion, at random, to anything currently in your dominion or next to your dominion that is not at your maximum dominion. If this is so, late game, if two or more players have lots of temples and such, and a mostly peaked dominion inside their own areas of control, it could be possible that 18-19 such conVersion points could hit one border province on a single turn. That is, if the conVersion rates work like I suspect they do, which is no sure thing.

It might be a bug, might not.

Norfleet

April 11th, 2004, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
There were four seraphines preaching in an adjacent provincePreaching in an adjacent province doesn't spread dominion, because preaching only raises dominion in the current province....and if your dominion strength is at least 7, Seraphines, even preaching at a temple couldn't push you over to max dominion and result in spillover anyway.

and a temple one over with dom strength 7, so it seemed really strange to me.Going from positive to -9 is a rather sudden and dramatic shift, 'tis true. On the other hand, a lone temple alone may not be sufficient to stop a massed array of temples feeding dominion outwards.

i think that game's just about over anyways, since there's absolutely no gold anywhere on that map. Cradle does seem to be a little lacking in pure farmlands and "large" provinces. Perhaps the next time we try this map, it should be done with "rich" world option to avoid the "no gold" effect. At least there's lots of gems: Have you tried converting gems to gold by alchemy? That's where most gold I use is from.

[ April 11, 2004, 00:12: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Graeme Dice

April 11th, 2004, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Preaching in an adjacent province doesn't spread dominion, because preaching only raises dominion in the current province....and if your dominion strength is at least 7, Seraphines, even preaching at a temple couldn't push you over to max dominion and result in spillover anyway.They will prevent enemy dominion from spreading through the province they are in however. There is also some chance that even a dominion that is not at the maximum in a province will spread, which is seen most commonly in the very beginning turns.

Cradle does seem to be a little lacking in pure farmlands and "large" provinces. Perhaps the next time we try this map, it should be done with "rich" world option to avoid the "no gold" effect.I don't particularly like how the rich setting also doubles resources, so I was thinking that I would just mod the amount of gold a given population produces to double gold income only.

At least there's lots of gems: Have you tried converting gems to gold by alchemy? That's where most gold I use is from.I have been, but Caelum has a particularly hard time finding both fire and earth gems.

Norfleet

April 11th, 2004, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
They will prevent enemy dominion from spreading through the province they are in however. There is also some chance that even a dominion that is not at the maximum in a province will spread, which is seen most commonly in the very beginning turns.This is true, but the chance of a temple check attacking a neighboring province appears to be independent of the strength of dominion in the current province, except for the case where the current province is at maximum dominion strength: Then the temple has no choice BUT to attack a neighboring province.

The interesting question is how a temple check propagates out beyond the immediately neighboring province, as temples are clearly capable of spreading dominion further than a neighboring province: Perhaps there's a chance that a temple check which attacks a neighboring province instead bounces and attacks a neighbor of that neighbor: Obviously, this may be forced if the temple's neighbors are also all at full dominion, and perhaps contain temples of their own: If this is what happens, and the nation is jampacked with many temples and is at max dominion in most provinces, the dominion spread may be forced outwards like a giant tidal wave, which WOULD very much account for the overwhelming force with which it overran your own dominion, since the above profile fits my empire.

]I don't particularly like how the rich setting also doubles resources, so I was thinking that I would just mod the amount of gold a given population produces to double gold income only.Can that be done in a .map file? If it requires a full mod, the Cradle map may be fundamentally unfavorable towards gold-dependent races.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> At least there's lots of gems: Have you tried converting gems to gold by alchemy? That's where most gold I use is from.I have been, but Caelum has a particularly hard time finding both fire and earth gems. <hr /></blockquote>Caelum is also a water nation, with cheap national water mages. High Seraphs can easily roll a random in Astral, which can then jumpstart the process. Surely you can afford to simply use Acashic Record to search for those necessary fire and earth gems, since Gnome Lore and Augury are not castable by basic national mages?

Graeme Dice

April 11th, 2004, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Can that be done in a .map file? If it requires a full mod, the Cradle map may be fundamentally unfavorable towards gold-dependent races.That's a mod only change.

Caelum is also a water nation, with cheap national water mages. High Seraphs can easily roll a random in Astral, which can then jumpstart the process. Surely you can afford to simply use Acashic Record to search for those necessary fire and earth gems, since Gnome Lore and Augury are not castable by basic national mages?To get a high seraph to astral 3 takes a good 75 pearls, and then you are going to be spending a lot more pearls to search provinces that have been almost totally searched anyways. You're really better off just sending around a search team of two high seraphs of fire 1 and earth 1.

Norfleet

April 11th, 2004, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
To get a high seraph to astral 3 takes a good 75 pearls, and then you are going to be spending a lot more pearls to search provinces that have been almost totally searched anyways. You're really better off just sending around a search team of two high seraphs of fire 1 and earth 1. 75 pearls? No way. It takes 40 pearls: Take an S1 High Seraph, empower to Astral-2 at the cost of 30 pearls, and forge a Starshine. You can use him for the purpose of scanning any new provinces you take for a full search. If you can take F or E High Seraph and give him a booster, you can then easily do probings for Fire and Earth on your searched provinces as well. If the terrain around you is so apparently poor in gold, then it will be rich in resources and gems, because mountains and forests are higher-resource provinces, and wastes, swamps, mountains, and forests again are also richer in magical sites: Acashic Record is very much to your benefit on such targets.

Graeme Dice

April 11th, 2004, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
75 pearls? No way. It takes 40 pearls: Take an S1 High Seraph, empower to Astral-2 at the cost of 30 pearls, and forge a Starshine.Bah. I need to pay more attention to what I'm saying.

Acashic Record is very much to your benefit on such targets.Except of course when you've already completely searched for every other type of site (except blood).

Graeme Dice

April 11th, 2004, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Ermor is not as strong as many would believe. Here's a breakdown of Ermor, from the perspective of an avid Ermor player:You've missed their major advantage, which is that they are still balanced for the Dominions 1 economy, whereas every other nation now has half the gold production available.

It is popularly believed that if Ermor is left uncontained, it will grow to be unstoppable. This is not inherently true, or at least more true, of Ermor: All nations, if left unchecked, will reach a point where stopping them becomes very difficult.I believe that that statement is quite literally true. Ermor has absolutely no limitations on the maximum number of troops it can support, and pays no upkeep on its mages whatsoever. That alone is an incredibly massive advantage. Every other nation requires high population in many provinces to keep their troops and mage numbers high, and population only drops over time.

If your dominion is weak, however, you must shore it up with priests and temples, or Ermor's temple spread will quickly overwhelm yours and ruin your lands.This is the major problem with them. Ermor has absolutely no need for population, so once they have captured a province it becomes useless to anyone else within a few turns.

Don't let yourself be goaded into a rash campaign: Act with patience and prudence, not a knee-jerk reaction of "Ermor must die!".I think that this is poor advice. Once ghost riders comes into play, which tends to be before turn 40, you basically have no chance against an Ermorian player. This spell makes building fortreses necessary in every province with a temple, which drains gold reserves incredibly quickly.

Both population killing Ermorian themes should probably cost 200 points just to match the other reanimating themes that exist.

Teraswaerto

April 11th, 2004, 07:58 AM

Both population killing Ermorian themes should probably cost 200 points just to match the other reanimating themes that exist.

You mean Desert Tombs? I though the consensus was that DT is too expensive, and quite weak compared to, for example, base C'tis.

Graeme Dice

April 11th, 2004, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
You mean Desert Tombs? I though the consensus was that DT is too expensive, and quite weak compared to, for example, base C'tis. That comparison might be valid if Ermor had to pay upkeep on its mages and troops.

Teraswaerto

April 11th, 2004, 08:19 AM

No upkeep, sure. But no way to recruit them either. Ermor is constantly short on death gems, so whether or not needing to/being able to to summon mages and priest is an advantage isn't so clear.

Norfleet

April 11th, 2004, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
You've missed their major advantage, which is that they are still balanced for the Dominions 1 economy, whereas every other nation now has half the gold production available.I don't happen to have Dominions 1, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Besides, it is irrelevant: Ermor will always have a more ridiculously huge number of troops than a living nation: Undoing Ermor's troops cannot be accomplished by hamhandedly throwing more troops at it, and if use the correct tools for the job, losing ANY troops in a clash of conventional armies is completely optional.

I believe that that statement is quite literally true. Ermor has absolutely no limitations on the maximum number of troops it can supportIncorrect: There is a maximum number of troops that Ermor (or any nation) is allowed to have, after which Ermor will not be able to receive any more troops, and any attempts to summon better troops risks failure due to this limit.

and pays no upkeep on its mages whatsoever.This is certainly an advantage, but I don't see it as overwhelming: Other nations are perfectly capable of switching to summoned, no-upkeep mages as well.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Don't let yourself be goaded into a rash campaign: Act with patience and prudence, not a knee-jerk reaction of "Ermor must die!".I think that this is poor advice. Once ghost riders comes into play, which tends to be before turn 40, you basically have no chance against an Ermorian player. This spell makes building fortreses necessary in every province with a temple, which drains gold reserves incredibly quickly.<hr /></blockquote>Impulsive, poorly considered, knee-jerk attacks are invariably the cause of total army loss. An impulsive, badly planned rush with poor strategic support will leave you in a very awkward position if it fails horribly.

I see you've caught onto my remote temple burning strategy. Building fortresses in every province with a temple, this is basically necessary anyway: Ghost Riders is not the only remote-raiding spell, and fliers, or flying SCs, can easily maraud completely unchecked, leaving you to try to guess their next move in a giant, extremely aggravating, whack-a-mole, unless you build forts. Province defense can stop very lightweight attacks, but is generally worthless against a human player, and there is really no point to using it other than to run off scouts. Fortresses, no matter how lousy, however, do something that NO amount of PD can do: No matter HOW large the attacking army is, you will always buy yourself a minimum of one turn to respond. Furthermore, your attacker is unable to pillage the province, and the amount of savaging he can conduct merely by raising taxes to 200 is far more limited. Lastly, if your attacker is unable to breach the wall, he can't kill your army: Forts are particularly effective against lone SCs, because SCs tend to be exceedingly poor at sieging even the weakest forts, and will be forced to either bring or request backup, give up, or camp out in front of the gates until the defender can muster a suitable response and run him off.

It should also be noted that Ermor is not even the only nation capable of using remote summons, including Ghost Riders. I regularly employ the use of Ghost Riders for temple burnings as living nations as well. Forts are mandatory, and are by far a better long-term investment than troops that invariably die ineffectually, as I tend to see them do often: After all, if you can't defend your land and prevent the enemy from taking it, all you have really accomplished is clearing the indies out at your own expense so that your enemy can use the land. This is stupid: If you can't hold onto it, it's not yours, and you're just conquering it for the enemy.

Both population killing Ermorian themes should probably cost 200 points just to match the other reanimating themes that exist. CW Pan is a zero-point reanimating theme. DT C'tis costs 200, an amount many believe is far overpriced, and only seems to warrant any cost at all because it (allegedly) lacks the killer dominion that will render your lands devoid of income, and thus permits the simultaneous use of living troops, removing the one-dimensional limitation of other reanimation themes.

Yossar

April 11th, 2004, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
CW Pan is a zero-point reanimating theme.More like a 160 point theme. 200 point before the patch. Being forced to take growth in a death theme is pretty useless.

[ April 11, 2004, 08:02: Message edited by: Yossar ]

Graeme Dice

April 11th, 2004, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I don't happen to have Dominions 1, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Besides, it is irrelevant: Ermor will always have a more ridiculously huge number of troops than a living nation:No, it really isn't irrelevant. In Dominions I, a living nation player had more than twice as much gold to throw around eac and every turn than they do now. That translates into a lot more units and especially a lot more mages and priests to handle the undead.

Incorrect: There is a maximum number of troops that Ermor (or any nation) is allowed to have, after which Ermor will not be able to receive any more troops, and any attempts to summon better troops risks failure due to this limit.Yes, and we all know that every other nation can afford to have 32767 troops plus several dozen mages sitting around.

This is certainly an advantage, but I don't see it as overwhelming: Other nations are perfectly capable of switching to summoned, no-upkeep mages as well.So what, they're supposed to squander their death gems (if they can even find them affordably with their mages) empowering a mage, then summoning spectres?

I see you've caught onto my remote temple burning strategy. Building fortresses in every province with a temple, this is basically necessary anyway: Ghost Riders is not the only remote-raiding spell, and fliers, or flying SCs, can easily maraud completely unchecked, leaving you to try to guess their next move in a giant, extremely aggravating, whack-a-mole, unless you build forts.[QUOTE]

Ghost riders is the _only_ remote attack spell that comes anywhere near its power level. Army of the dead doesn't supply you with a wraith lord.

[QUOTE]Province defense can stop very lightweight attacks, but is generally worthless against a human player, and there is really no point to using it other than to run off scouts.Province defense of 10 can stop just about any remote attack spell other than ghost riders cold.

Fortresses, no matter how lousy, however, do something that NO amount of PD can do: No matter HOW large the attacking army is, you will always buy yourself a minimum of one turn to respond.And the typical fort costs 300-450 gold, which is far too expensive to build in every province other than if you plan to bore your opponents to death.

It should also be noted that Ermor is not even the only nation capable of using remote summons, including Ghost Riders. I regularly employ the use of Ghost Riders for temple burnings as living nations as well.The only other nation that has cheap access to Ghost Riders is C'Tis.

Norfleet

April 11th, 2004, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
No, it really isn't irrelevant. In Dominions I, a living nation player had more than twice as much gold to throw around eac and every turn than they do now. That translates into a lot more units and especially a lot more mages and priests to handle the undead.If you really feel it's such a problem, you can always choose to play on Rich world: That would give you your Dominions I balance back. Me, I think you're just spoiled by too much gold.

Yes, and we all know that every other nation can afford to have 32767 troops plus several dozen mages sitting around.This from the guy who claimed to have several hundred mystics and astrologers camping out in his capitol?

So what, they're supposed to squander their death gems (if they can even find them affordably with their mages) empowering a mage, then summoning spectres?If you don't HAVE any death mages, it's a little hard to do anything else with your death gems. It's not that hard to find and equip a death-1 or 2 mage with equipment needed to forge more +death items.

Province defense of 10 can stop just about any remote attack spell other than ghost riders cold.I've overrun PD 10 with Arouse Hunger, Imprint Souls, Hordes from Hell....PD is simply unable to cope. If you can't beat it with just one casting, use two or three. What are you, the AI? Do you not care if you succeed or fail? Anything worth doing is worth doing with excessive force.

And the typical fort costs 300-450 gold, which is far too expensive to build in every province other than if you plan to bore your opponents to death.[/QUOTE
When you consider how much it would cost you to maintain a standing army or PD capable of stopping the attacks that forts can, forts are a bargain! It is difficult or impossible for a typical standing army to fight off, say, 10 casting of Ghost Riders. A single fort, even the lowly 0-point watchtower, can ward off an infinite number of Ghost Riders. Even a PD of 125 cannot stop a rampaging ice devil: A single watch tower stops it cold. A fort can stop or delay enemies that no army you can muster at any reasonable, or even unreasonable, cost can.

[QUOTE]The only other nation that has cheap access to Ghost Riders is C'Tis. It's not all that difficult to get access to death-4 mages, Graeme. Once you have a D2 mage, he can forge a skullstaff and skullface, and voila, D4 mage. After all, if you have no other sources of death mages, what ELSE would you do with death gems? You need death mages to even use death gems, and nearly any nation can afford to get death gems, given that Dark Knowledge requires only a single rank of death magic, which most nations will surely roll on a random sooner or later.

Taqwus

April 11th, 2004, 06:22 PM

Anybody that can summon Lamia Queens has a decent chance of getting a Death-3 or even Death-4 queen without expending vast amounts of death gems, too.

GavinWheeler

April 11th, 2004, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
In short, it is absolutely NOT necessary to form a massive coalition and turn the game into a gigantic anti-undead crusade: It is perfectly possible for most nations to take on an Ermor of relatively equal size unassisted... Soooo... a self-confessed Ermor fan is effectively saying "no need to gang up and squash Ermor before it gets rolling, just give me twenty turns or so then all come at me one by one"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Peter Ebbesen

April 11th, 2004, 07:03 PM

Ether Gate also provides you with a rather neat death/astral/random mage as part of the bundle - but SSSSD and 90 Astral gems is a pretty steep requirement to cast it.

[ April 11, 2004, 18:11: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Graeme Dice

April 11th, 2004, 07:07 PM

If you really feel it's such a problem, you can always choose to play on Rich world: That would give you your Dominions I balance back. Me, I think you're just spoiled by too much gold.Let's take a look at the two Ermorian themes then. From Dom 1 to Dom 2 their amount of available design points dropped by 50. They also gained more survivability for their troops as banish was reduced in effectiveness. Every other nation, on the other hand, has half as much gold to use.

This from the guy who claimed to have several hundred mystics and astrologers camping out in his capitol?A hundred is different from several hundred and that type of game is hardly a good candidate for making game balance decisions. Even so, that's all I had besides summoned troops, since the upkeep was approaching 1000 gold per turn, and even the world map doesn't give you much more than that in income.

If you don't HAVE any death mages, it's a little hard to do anything else with your death gems.If you don't have any death mages, you're going to have a hard time creating one with death 2 or 3.

I've overrun PD 10 with Arouse Hunger, Imprint Souls, Hordes from Hell....PD is simply unable to cope. If you can't beat it with just one casting, use two or three.So you just happen to have a few hundred nature gems sitting around to cast multiple calls of the wilds every turn? Imprint souls is 25 astral pearls, so it's a once every two or three turns deal. Arouse hunger has nowhere near the offensive potential of ghost riders. 10 ghouls isn't quite the same potency of a force as 33 longdead horsemen and a wraith lord.

A single fort, even the lowly 0-point watchtower, can ward off an infinite number of Ghost Riders.So what, people are supposed to ignore their national troops and build pure summoned armies just so that they can have a low cost fortress?

A fort can stop or delay enemies that no army you can muster at any reasonable, or even unreasonable, cost can.And that's one of the serious balance problems. Your conventional troops should never become useless, and should always remain the most important part of your army. As it stands right now, the game just degenerates into who can build the better SC faster.

It's not all that difficult to get access to death-4 mages, Graeme. Once you have a D2 mage, he can forge a skullstaff and skullface, and voila, D4 mage.Most nations don't even have death 2 mages, so it's hardly a bargain to spend 60 gems to get a single mage capable of casting death 4 spells.

archaeolept

April 11th, 2004, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by GavinWheeler:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Norfleet:
In short, it is absolutely NOT necessary to form a massive coalition and turn the game into a gigantic anti-undead crusade: It is perfectly possible for most nations to take on an Ermor of relatively equal size unassisted... Soooo... a self-confessed Ermor fan is effectively saying "no need to gang up and squash Ermor before it gets rolling, just give me twenty turns or so then all come at me one by one"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>yup. that is exactly what he always says http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

along w/ saying that the "paralyse bug" hurt him more than it hurt others (this while he was playing SG ermor and r'lyeh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif )

Norfleet

April 11th, 2004, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by GavinWheeler:
Soooo... a self-confessed Ermor fan is effectively saying "no need to gang up and squash Ermor before it gets rolling, just give me twenty turns or so then all come at me one by one"? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif That is hardly what I am saying at all: What I am saying is that many times playing *AS* Ermor, I've run into the confused panic of other players....who rush at me willy-nilly with no sense of plan or attainable objective, and die.

This is incredibly stupid.

Sun Tzu, "Art of War"
Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical. Hence the enlightened ruler is heedful, and the good general full of caution. This is the way to keep a country at peace and an army intact.At the same time, in games I am playing AGAINST Ermor, as another nation(I've actually played more Mictlan than Ermor!), I feel no compulsion to rush. While it is true that Ermor's mass of rabble grows larger the longer I leave it alone, they are just that: A mass of meaningless rabble, usable only as cannon fodder, and easily dispatched in the hundreds if the right tactics are used. The wrong tactics, naturally, spell certain doom.

When fighting Ermor, you must always be mindful of guarding your flank: The nature of Ermor's troop-raising is such that Ermor can afford to attack in many places at once: You must be careful not to allow him to cut you off, and you must not overextend yourself into his territory, for then you will find yourself surrounded and cut off: Always be certain that your fallback position is secured from attack: If a battle goes badly against an Ermorian army, it is inevitably the case that your troop screen will be routed first: This will then result in your commanders routing: If are not able to maintain a fallback position, you will be wiped out to the Last man: If you can secure a point of retreat, you will preserve the most expensive and important component of your army: Your mages and priests.

Fighting Ermor is not like fighting other nations: Blitzing through empty provinces and beelining for his capitol or other apparently important provinces is useless. Ermor has few, if any, important provinces, and those that he values are not necessarily manifestly obvious. When you fight Ermor, you are fighting for ground, not for specific provinces. Advance slowly, cautiously, and relentlessly. Do not squander your men and material on pointless attacks.

Never act rashly: Ermor may grow more powerful with time, but so do you: Ermor's numbers are not your primary threat, merely your ticket into the hall of fame.

[ April 11, 2004, 18:42: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Norfleet

April 11th, 2004, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by archaeolept:
along w/ saying that the "paralyse bug" hurt him more than it hurt others (this while he was playing SG ermor and r'lyeh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ) Meh. The Paralyze bug is gone now, and I will be among the first to dance with joy for its loss. Yet I continue to play SG Ermor, and R'lyeh.

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Let's take a look at the two Ermorian themes then. From Dom 1 to Dom 2 their amount of available design points dropped by 50. They also gained more survivability for their troops as banish was reduced in effectiveness. Every other nation, on the other hand, has half as much gold to use.Banish seems rather effective to me. Seeing as they've upgraded the accuracy of all ranged weapons, including banish, in the new 2.11 patch, banish works much better.

Even so, that's all I had besides summoned troops, since the upkeep was approaching 1000 gold per turn, and even the world map doesn't give you much more than that in income.That's all you NEED. Why would you need hordes of rabble? They're the wrong tools for the job.

If you don't have any death mages, you're going to have a hard time creating one with death 2 or 3.You can easily get a death-1 random in many nations: That allows you to dark knowledge for gems, and you will surely wind up with a larger pile of death gems than Ermor will, because you have practically no use for them. So why NOT create some items and summons to get you some death-2+ mages? Gotta use all those death gems SOMEHOW. If you simply neglect the fact that you can find death gem sites in your territory, then you are simply willfully squandering your available natural resources.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I've overrun PD 10 with Arouse Hunger, Imprint Souls, Hordes from Hell....PD is simply unable to cope. If you can't beat it with just one casting, use two or three.So you just happen to have a few hundred nature gems sitting around to cast multiple calls of the wilds every turn?<hr /></blockquote>Call of Wild is able to easily crunch through weak PD nations with one cast. Furthermore, the wolves stick around if they win, and the werewolf you get can summon more wolves. The entire mass is also stealthy, so you can hit the target, then skulk off and try to burn neighboring temples as well. Furthermore, since the entire mess *DOES* stick around, Call of the Wild can cut off lines even when the target province contains a fort: Ghost Riders and Phantasmal Attack cannot, and are more or less totally useless against a fortified province.

Imprint souls is 25 astral pearls, so it's a once every two or three turns deal.This from the man who argues Astral Pearls are free after turn 20? It almost sounds like you don't believe that astrals are actually free....because they're not. You are right that this is a once every two or three turns deal....but timing is everything. Simply casting it willy-nilly is a useless waste. Timing, timing, timing.

Arouse hunger has nowhere near the offensive potential of ghost riders. 10 ghouls isn't quite the same potency of a force as 33 longdead horsemen and a wraith lord.No, but it isn't a level 9 spell, either, and number of ghouls increases with the power of the death mage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />A single fort, even the lowly 0-point watchtower, can ward off an infinite number of Ghost Riders.So what, people are supposed to ignore their national troops and build pure summoned armies just so that they can have a low cost fortress?<hr /></blockquote>That is definitely a perfectly valid strategy favored by several nations. There's also your wizard's tower. I used to think that the wizard's tower was immensely overpriced pointwise, but now I see that it's actually a very attractive option if you wish to continue to use your national troops AND have a quickly deployable fortress of low cost.

And that's one of the serious balance problems. Your conventional troops should never become useless, and should always remain the most important part of your army. As it stands right now, the game just degenerates into who can build the better SC faster.Bombers, tanks, infantry. The order of usage is very important to a successful blitzkrieg, and neglecting any of these makes a far less successful blitz attack. Your national troops are not obsolete, you are merely using them for the wrong purpose.

Most nations don't even have death 2 mages, so it's hardly a bargain to spend 60 gems to get a single mage capable of casting death 4 spells. Why not? Do you have something better to do with death gems, when all you can do is cast death-1, or even no, death spells at all? I suppose you could trade them to an ally who CAN, but that simply means you have somebody else to cast them for you. Otherwise, what else would you do with them? Alchemizing them into something else is not exactly the most economical deal either, particularly if with only a small initial outlay, you can afford to begin fielding your own death mages....quite possibly to the great surprise of an opponent who does not expect you to have any, let alone an entire cadre of mound kings, liches, and spectres.

[ April 11, 2004, 19:04: Message edited by: Norfleet ]