Cost per research point calculator

[guybrush threepwood]

Hi there,

I hacked together a small webpage which calculates and compares the gold cost per research point given different researchers/magic scales/number of turns.

Here it is, in the hope that someone else might find it useful:

http://hep.nbi.dk/~kittel/dom2/

Comments are very welcome, but bear in mind that I havent used any effort on the layout or stuff like that... :-)

Cheers,
Thomas

[Tuna-Fish]

REALLY interesting, thank you!

I'm suprised that there is something that is actually worse than Niefel Jarl http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Addendum:

It also seems that Niefelheim is the worst possible nation (Excluding AE and SG ermor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )for magic research in a non-drain scale... A VERY good reson to take some magic.

[ April 12, 2004, 10:34: Message edited by: Tuna-Fish ]

[CayseP]

Nice work...

[quantum_mechani]

lol, when you set it to drain 3, the witch doctor lists 'infinite' in gold cost/RP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[Thilock_Dominus]

uummmm....Ctis lies on the avarage scale. The Empoisoner do well I see...


Nice work by the way! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[archaeolept]

yeah, you should change all the "infinite" results to account for the fact that the minimum RP/turn is 1.

[Master Shake]

Does your calculator take into account upkeep? Because that makes sacred units much more efficient.

[Gandalf Parker]

Nicely done. Good work.

[Yossar]

Oh, the Warlock Apprentice is Abysia's cheapest researcher in the short-term but the Demonbred is cheaper over the long term thanks to being sacred. That never even occured to me. I've just been building Apprentices. Now I wonder if the higher upfront cost of the Apprentice is worth more than the long term savings of the Demonbred. On default Magic, it takes 20-30 turns to see it though.

Thanks a lot for this thing. At first I thought it wasn't that useful, but it really is.

[Yossar]

Originally posted by Master Shake:
Does your calculator take into account upkeep? Because that makes sacred units much more efficient. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Definitely does. Also takes into account Ulm Master Smiths being immune to drain. Pretty robust little calculator.

[guybrush threepwood]

Glad people like it - now I might actually bother with the layout of the page (at some point) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by archaeolept:
yeah, you should change all the "infinite" results to account for the fact that the minimum RP/turn is 1. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Doh, I did not know that. It should be fixed now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyway, upkeep with sacred units benefitting should be included. And I actually made this whole thing since I was also wondering about those abysian troops.

[PhilD]

Originally posted by guybrush threepwood:
Glad people like it - now I might actually bother with the layout of the page (at some point) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't! Keep it simple, there's no need for anything fancier...

I suppose experience isn't taken into account?

[Minrhael]

As the exact question I was coming to find out was bard vs sidhe champ in upkeep, thanks for the very timely table!

As an additional question though, how does the game calculate those percentages of an upkeep. i.e. on magic 3 a bard is 1.25, sidhe is 1.33. Is there any effective difference between them or do they just get counted as 1 each turn or 2 each turn or does it actually charge the extra gold every 4 turns for bard and 3 for sidhe?

This table also makes me cry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif As my beloved Tuatha I'm required to take a magic scale and I get the 47th best researcher? bah! Some "magical theme" we are. Bards were teachers and history keepers etc weren't they? (or am I just messed up through too many different books!) Give em a 1 point research bonus! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Minrhael:
As an additional question though, how does the game calculate those percentages of an upkeep. i.e. on magic 3 a bard is 1.25, sidhe is 1.33. Is there any effective difference between them or do they just get counted as 1 each turn or 2 each turn or does it actually charge the extra gold every 4 turns for bard and 3 for sidhe?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would imagine that it adds up the upkeep for all units keeping the decimal points, then just drops whatever is left at the end. I know that it does store the decimal points up to the very end though, as the devs have mentioned this.

[Yossar]

Is base Man theme missing?

[sergex]

My two favorite Neutrals aren't there, Wizard and Witch! Witch is 100 gold for 4 base research.. sacred. I forget Wizard.. been a while since I found one.

I too noticed that base Man was missing.

[PDF]

Originally posted by sergex:
My two favorite Neutrals aren't there, Wizard and Witch! Witch is 100 gold for 4 base research.. sacred. I forget Wizard.. been a while since I found one.

I too noticed that base Man was missing. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wizard is 140 for 10 research. Less interesting than a Sage, even in Drain3 environment .
However Wizards can be really good researchers for those poor nations with ultra-expensive mages (Abysia anyone ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

[guybrush threepwood]

Originally posted by PhilD:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by guybrush threepwood:
Glad people like it - now I might actually bother with the layout of the page (at some point) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't! Keep it simple, there's no need for anything fancier...

I suppose experience isn't taken into account? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok ok, I won't make it fancy then (as if I could have). I might make it html compliant though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Experience is not taken into account, but it should of course! Very good point. Does the manual mention how much xp is gained from researching? Oh well, I guess its time to RTFM...

Originally posted by Yossar:
Is base Man theme missing? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">wups... no longer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by sergex:
My two favorite Neutrals aren't there, Wizard and Witch! Witch is 100 gold for 4 base research.. sacred. I forget Wizard.. been a while since I found one.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, independents are incomplete for now. I have added the witch, and if anyone want anything else added, just tell me their stats.

I will of course add independent researchers myself as I encounter them from now on.

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Minrhael:
As an additional question though, how does the game calculate those percentages of an upkeep. i.e. on magic 3 a bard is 1.25, sidhe is 1.33. Is there any effective difference between them or do they just get counted as 1 each turn or 2 each turn or does it actually charge the extra gold every 4 turns for bard and 3 for sidhe?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would imagine that it adds up the upkeep for all units keeping the decimal points, then just drops whatever is left at the end. I know that it does store the decimal points up to the very end though, as the devs have mentioned this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hmm, good to know. Just for the record, the way I calculate upkeep is the initial cost divided by 15 (and half of that for sacred units). I keep all decimal points all the time.

[ April 13, 2004, 09:22: Message edited by: guybrush threepwood ]

[guybrush threepwood]

Originally posted by PDF:
Wizard is 140 for 10 research.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, added.

(non-sacred I assume)

[guybrush threepwood]

Ok I have looked in the manual and made a quick search here on the forum, but I am not sure I fully understand experience in the context of research.

What I gathered so far was:

Units level at 15, 50, 100, 200 & 400 xp (and no more?).

Each level gives +1 to research.

Each unit automatically gets +1 xp each round.

But does a unit not gain some "research xp" or some such in addition if it is just hanging around doing research?

Hopefully someone can clarify this so I can take experience into account in the calculations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Yossar]

Lore master 150 gold 12 research

Possibly the best Drain 3 researcher in the game

[ April 13, 2004, 10:24: Message edited by: Yossar ]

[CayseP]

Fix: The C'Tis shaman is sacred (currently it seems non-sacred and similar to the empoisoner), which helps C'Tis somewhat on a longer time scale.

[guybrush threepwood]

Originally posted by PDF:
How is maintenance cost calculated ?
In the game it's surely rounded (up or down) somewhere, to have entire figures. I've heard that it was done on a per unit basis, so that can really change the values on the long run (50-100 turns).
Anyone has the formula ? IW only ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hmmm... all I can say to this is what Graeme Dice said a few Posts ago:

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I would imagine that it adds up the upkeep for all units keeping the decimal points, then just drops whatever is left at the end. I know that it does store the decimal points up to the very end though, as the devs have mentioned this. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course, whatever method is actually used in-game is what should go into the calculator. Does anyone know for sure?

Also, I am still hoping that someone could clarify whether or not a unit gains experience for researching (in addition to the 1xp/turn that every unit apparently gets).

[Duncanish]

But does a unit not gain some "research xp" or some such in addition if it is just hanging around doing research? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't believe they do. Researchers I keep at home studying never gain levels very fast, and I've never had one go past two stars. But they do gain experience faster if they get involved in a skirmish or two.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by PDF:
How is maintenance cost calculated ?
In the game it's surely rounded (up or down) somewhere, to have entire figures. I've heard that it was done on a per unit basis, so that can really change the values on the long run (50-100 turns).
Anyone has the formula ? IW only ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's in the wish list thread that no rounding occurs till the very end.

The Wish List Thread (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=001152;p=3#000 030)

[guybrush threepwood]

Originally posted by Duncanish:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> But does a unit not gain some "research xp" or some such in addition if it is just hanging around doing research? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't believe they do. Researchers I keep at home studying never gain levels very fast, and I've never had one go past two stars. But they do gain experience faster if they get involved in a skirmish or two. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, I assume they don't then.

I have added XP into the picture now - of course assuming that the units are doing nothing but researching from the day they are created (in a real game this does not have to be so of course). The extra XP not surprisingly give an advantage to low cost/low research level researchers in the long run compared to higher cost/higher research level ones.

[Gateway103]

IIRC, all commanders (and possibly units too, never bothered to check) gain 1 XP per turn just by doing anything not XP related (i.e. not fighting, or entering war academy, and not enhanced by items). So A researcher would gain 1 XP per turn, whether she researches or not.

For example, in my long SP testing game as Atlantis, which finally ended on turn 221, all mages in my capitals were ofLevel 3 & 4, whom I know were hired in the early days to fuel my research. And since I was the only water nation, these mages never seemed battle at all (sitting home and hit books). So this seems to collaborate my memory that commanders gain 1 XP per turn at minimum, as some of these researchs would get 200+ XPs (level 4), while the rest were level 3, as observed.

Just an observation.

-Gateway103

[Chris Byler]

The research formula:

Research = Sum of all mage levels + 2 + Experience bonus +/- Sage bonus/Witchdoctor penalty +/- Scale adjustment + Item bonuses

Mage levels are all magic paths except divine and unholy. Commanders without any mage levels can't research at all. Includes bonuses from path boosting items (e.g. Earth Boots).

Experience bonus is +1 rp per star.

Sage bonus - various units have this including sages, loremasters, the Great Sage pretender, adepts of the metal orders. I think it's +3 for most of those units, but I'm not sure of the exact value. There's also a heroic research bonus, I think - I assume this works like the sage bonus, I don't know if it's cumulative with a sage's natural bonus if a sage gets the heroic research ability.

Witchdoctor penalty - I've heard that they are bad at research now but haven't played Machaka recently.

Scale adjustment - +1 RP/magic scale, -1 RP/drain scale. Ulm Master Smiths ignore drain but do benefit from magic (but Ulm pretenders are affected normally).

Item bonuses - various items give RP bonuses of different sizes.

Research can't be reduced below 0 but can be reduced to 0 (non-experienced level 1 mage in drain-3).

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Commanders without any mage levels can't research at all.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Commanders that don't list a research ability can't research. Arco Golden era philosophers have no magic ability, but can still research.

Witchdoctor penalty - I've heard that they are bad at research now but haven't played Machaka recently.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Witchdoctor's now research at a base level of 3, instead of the 5 they would normally have with three magic skills.

Research can't be reduced below 0 but can be reduced to 0 (non-experienced level 1 mage in drain-3).<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I take it you've never played a drain 3 nation. The minimum research value is 1, and never lower than that.

[ April 13, 2004, 18:24: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

[guybrush threepwood]

Originally posted by Yossar:
Lore master 150 gold 12 research

Possibly the best Drain 3 researcher in the game <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Added. (and its even the best drain 2 researcher http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

Originally posted by CayseP:
Fix: The C'Tis shaman is sacred (currently it seems non-sacred and similar to the empoisoner), which helps C'Tis somewhat on a longer time scale. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">wups. Fixed.

Hmm... maybe I should add a way to show the data I am using so its easier for people to spot my bugs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Update: The calculator now includes a link to a page which shows the unit data that is used for the calculations.

[ April 13, 2004, 13:15: Message edited by: guybrush threepwood ]

[PDF]

How is maintenance cost calculated ?
In the game it's surely rounded (up or down) somewhere, to have entire figures. I've heard that it was done on a per unit basis, so that can really change the values on the long run (50-100 turns).
Anyone has the formula ? IW only ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 13, 2004, 12:58: Message edited by: PDF ]

[Chris Byler]

Thanks for the corrections - I quickly learned not to play Drain 3 except with standard Ulm, and I forgot about the Philosophers - and for the data on Witch Doctors (who must therefore have a "sage bonus" of -2).

[guybrush threepwood]

Hi,

Just wanted to mention that I believe that the calculator (here (http://hep.nbi.dk/~kittel/dom2/)) really does every calculation in agreement with the discussions in this thread.

Also, I added a few more independents.

Cheers,
Thomas

[Arryn]

Originally posted by guybrush threepwood:
Just wanted to mention that I believe that the calculator (here (http://hep.nbi.dk/~kittel/dom2/)) really does every calculation in agreement with the discussions in this thread.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thomas, I added a link to your page from my website to make it easier for folks to find. You've done a great job on this calculator. Kudos!

[Johan K]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
It's in the wish list thread that no rounding occurs till the very end.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can cross that off then, because it works just like you want it to.

[guybrush threepwood]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Thomas, I added a link to your page from my website to make it easier for folks to find. You've done a great job on this calculator. Kudos! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif