Pretender assassin - balance?

[JaydedOne]

Here's a theoretical question for you:

Should modders even consider assigning the #assassin flag to a Pretender they create? If so, what should they consider in the balancing and about how much is it, in itself, worth? Should it only go on human-type Pretenders (like an Arch-Mage) or should it be expanded to the mid-range types as well (such as, say, a Bog Mummy or Virtue)? Can anyone make an argument as to whether the big daddy Pretenders (in terms of hps, such as titans or Sons of Niefel) could have the flag and not be grotesquely overpowered?

Discuss, please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Truper]

I don't see any reason why a pretender couldn't have the assassination ability, but on the other hand, a pretender should always have better things to do than assissinating. I'd rather have my Titan in battle, flinging lighning bolts and causing havoc, than sneaking aroung looking for a commander worth using a Titan to assassinate.

[Gandalf Parker]

Ive used assassin pretenders. It can be fun. The Lord of the Hunt with a Black Heart for instance.

[pole_shift]

The Mictlan national Pretender (the bat-like Lord of the Night, not the Smoking Mirror guy) *is* an Assassin! Few players know this.

[Vynd]

I agree with Truper for the most part. Most of the time there should be things to do with your Pretender than hiding and sneaking around, assassinating people. From time to time it might come in handy, especially if you can lure your enemy's prophet or Pretender into position for assassination. But it seems to me that most of the leaders you catch won't be all that impressive, and meanwhile you'll be missing out on the Pretender's help in research or fighting or whatever.

Since this is true, it doesn't seem like that unbalancing of a thing to let Pretenders, even powerful ones, be assassins. It would probably be more "realistic" to limit this to the physically smaller Pretenders or the ones with illusionary powers or things of that nature. It's kind of hard to imagine a Titan sneaking up and bushwhacking someone.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by pole_shift:
The Mictlan national Pretender (the bat-like Lord of the Night, not the Smoking Mirror guy) *is* an Assassin! Few players know this. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't !

[Arralen]

It isn't.
It's stealthy+10 only...

[pole_shift]

It isn't.
It's stealthy+10 only...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He *is*. Try him out. Sneak him into Neutral Province and notice you can select "Assassinate Enemy Commander" as an action. He rocks.

[ April 13, 2004, 23:52: Message edited by: pole_shift ]

[GavinWheeler]

I get the same result, using the Windows Version and patch 2.08: He does not have the 'assassin' ability icon in his description, but does get the option to assassinate. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

I would agree that using the pretender as an assassin is not really worthwhile most of the time, so would not be unbalancing.

[Vicious Love]

Soooo...does this mean the Vampire Queen should be an assassin?
Obscenely powerful or otherwise, it just seems thematically appropriate.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
Soooo...does this mean the Vampire Queen should be an assassin?
Obscenely powerful or otherwise, it just seems thematically appropriate. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Vampire Queen, and that Ghost King I believe(even worse I think), can easily become an assassin with the Black Heart. Any sneaking unit can.

[Anglachel]

Just wanted to make a triple confirmation. The Mictlan pretender, Lord of Night, CAN assassinate commanders.

[Vicious Love]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Vampire Queen, and that Ghost King I believe(even worse I think), can easily become an assassin with the Black Heart. Any sneaking unit can. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I know, I know, I'm just saying it's thematically appropriate for her to have it "out of the box". If nerfing is in order, you could always take away one of her misc slots, as in "My heart's so black I can't wear a ring, ma!"

[Saxon]

An assassin pretender does not, in my opinion, need balancing. Assassins are useful, but not unbalancing. An assassin pretender can annoy, but is unlikely to hamstring a decently prepared opponent.

As for the Vampire Queen, you can gear her up to eat entire armies, so why bother with just the commanders? That said, I agree, it does fit thematically. As such, I would argue for giving her assassination and toning down some of her other powers.

[Anglachel]

Would an assassinating pretender that flies, such as the Vampire Queen with the heart, be viable strategy at eating away at gem hoarding early? Or does being in a fortress protect them from such?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Would an assassinating pretender that flies, such as the Vampire Queen with the heart, be viable strategy at eating away at gem hoarding early? Or does being in a fortress protect them from such? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Assassinating can strike inside of a fort, yes, as long as the fort is not being sieged. Being inside of a fort is not a protection against assassination unless your fort is being besieged.

[Yossar]

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Would an assassinating pretender that flies, such as the Vampire Queen with the heart, be viable strategy at eating away at gem hoarding early? Or does being in a fortress protect them from such? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But if they're hoarding stuff in their capitol, you're not going to have many hps there and the proper bodyguards (something flying maybe) might be able to rip you up.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
Soooo...does this mean the Vampire Queen should be an assassin?
Obscenely powerful or otherwise, it just seems thematically appropriate. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does seem more reasonable. Not that Dominions2 takes inspiration from movies or literature, but vampires generally are fantastic at slaying individuals, but not army-destroyers. (Oriental Vampires in martial arts movies being an exception.)

[Edit : Then again - most vampires in books and movies aren't aspiring to Doghood.]

[ April 18, 2004, 00:05: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

[Murph]

I'm still tinkering with the idea of a Pretender assassin for the Malazan Empire mod I'm (slowly) working on. I can't see that an assassin pretender would be over-powerful, but a huge-sized assassin is a bit silly, IMO. If a Titan wants you dead, he kicks over your house and lights it on fire with lightning, he doesn't find 2 really tall buildings to hide between and then drop a chimney on you when you walk past.

Besides, it comes down to utility. A huge combat beast doesn't need to be an assassin, likewise a killer mage. But a sneaky assassin pretender would be a pain to get rid of, and surgical strikes would be easy, plus even a well-defended mage or commander would have some serious problems when a pretender swings in the window. So, stealthy preacher, almost uncatchable pretender and assassin? I don't know about anybody else, but I could find some use for that.