Suggestions to improve the Water Magic discipline

[SelfishGene]

I agree with those whom feel water magic is lacking - partly i believe because so much of that branch of magic is duplicated elsewhere and feels redundant, and spells and rituals unique to its branch are rarer, more situational, and weaker than the other branches. On the whole of course.

Another problem with water magic is how it is so uniformly spread throughout most the research trees. Most of the other disciplines have a majority in a couple of trees; Astral and Death in Thaumaturgy, Nature in Enchantment, Fire in Evocation, Earth in Construction, ect.

So what im suggesting are not changes to existing spells but actually NEW spells and rituals be added to Water, hopefully making it better rounded and more more attractive.

Of course as with every suggestion any, none, some, or all of them can be included or changed at the designers' discretion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

And please post any other suggestions or changes you would like to see if you agree that water needs improving!

Rituals

Confused Migration
Animals which normally migrate during winter months become confused and lost and cannot find their way; ducks and geese fly in cirles and deer become trapped by the ice. Hunters rejoice in their fortune.
+ 1 Growth Scale in cold provinces?

Avalanche
An avalance occurs on snow-capped mountains, destroying any temples or labs in the province in which this event occurs. Incidental damage and some casualties to townspeople.

Chthonic Wolves
Sacred Wolves of the End of Days called upon to devour the heros of humanity, these giant sized monsters radiate fear and command the respect of mortal wolves whom will follow them as if a god.

Closed Passes
Sudden blizzard accumulates so much snow that all passes are choked with ice, preventing any troops from entering or leaving the targeted province. (Might be good for mountain only). Duration depends on gems used. (maybe 10/turn or something).

Rimtustar
Awaken giant ***-kicking, nation stomping, big guy with a heart of gold. He can't help pounding the world to dust, its his job!

Lyncanthropy
Curses several units with the ability to change into werewolves if wounded (might be high level combat spell, small aoe). AAAAHHOOOO

Permafrost
Causes snowfall in lands with cold scales to freeze into solid ice, reducing the effects of difficult terrain. Movement costs only 1 point in cold provinces.

Items

Sable Coat
Beautiful and valuable coat grants cold resist and +aura.

The Icicle of Red Ryder
Enchanted Icicle that never melts gives off an cooling aura that reduces the temperature in the province it resides within. Might cause bearer to go blind in one eye, watch out!

Ok enough of that. Any better ideas?

[ April 17, 2004, 06:08: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

[HotNifeThruButr]

Water magic only benefits water races too often, so what about a spell to nail them in the ocean?

Raging Tides 7-8 water circles required, lots of water gems too, say 80: The seas of the world are stirred into a frenzy, a number of aquatic units, 20-40 in each province, become displaced and move 1 province in a random direction. If they're unable to breathe air and happen to get washed ashore, they die.

Icicle Shards 1 water circle required, no gems: it's like Flying Shards, but you have twice the projectiles at half power.

Edit: isn't there already a Rimtursur spell? Illwinter?

[ April 17, 2004, 06:47: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

[Saxon]

Nice ideas!

How about some more weather spells, perhaps linked to nature magic as well.

Driving Rain

Powerful rain lashes from the sky, flooding fields and knocking down crops. 50% gold income and supply reduction in targeted province this turn.

Gentle Rain

Kind and blessing rain caresses the land, giving substantial help to crops in your dominion. 25% gold and supply increase in all provinces with your dominion.

Mud Patches (combat)

The mage brings forth small springs from the ground, creating patches of mud which greatly slow movement. All troops entering these square lose any remaining movement this turn. Each point of magic produces one square of mud.

The Last one is aimed at those low level water mages who cast quickness and can then do nothing in battle. A little bit of mud will not change things too much, but will slow troop advances and flight. A low level mage can not do too much with this, but a high level one would mess up a field quickly.

[Teraswaerto]

No Rimmetursar awaken no matter how long Illwinter is active. It's just flavour text.

I think Water Elementals should have innate quickness and/or more defense. They are clearly the weakest elemental ATM.

[Teraswaerto]

DP

[ April 17, 2004, 08:00: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[Gateway103]

Some ideas,

Water Shield (combat spell, improved Version)
- Protect target from fire (50%), as well as 20% of all attacks will miss (imagine a cyclonic barrier of water with high pressure, capable of deflecting incoming attacks. Less effective in hot dominion 2+ (say -5% per heat scale >= 2)
- If used in cold 2+ dominion, result is an Ice Shield that protects from fire (50%), and increase Armour Protection by (4 + cold scale)

Ice Wall (ritual)
- Increase defense of fortress wall by 25 per level of cold scale, starting with cold -3, up to maximum value of fortress (so maximum of 175 in cold 3 dominion). May be casted remotely from different province

Drowning Bubbles (combat spell)
- Single target, target must make MR save or loses 15hp. Receive 2pt damage if successfully resisted. Useless on amphibians, aquatic, or undead. Can't be casted underwater.

Hail (combat spell)
- BLast a medium sized area with falling icicles. Damage is considered magical and armour piercing.

Summon Geckos (ritual)
- Summon giant size 4 Geckos with recuperation, regeneration, poison attack, poison immunity, high natural protection but low defense skills.
- Summon amount is 4+

Healing Fluid (combat spell)
- Heals 6~10+ points, plus curing poison & paralysis.

Healing Shower (combat spell)
- Heals 6~10+ points on an area of 3+, plus curing poison& paralysis.

Cleansing (ritual)
- Each casting has a 10% chance of curing the Diseased affliction, from each afflicted creature in the province. It also heals 20% base hp of every creature in the province if they are not at full health (e.g. still diseased units)

Waterway (ritual)
- Allows mages and her troops to travel from one coastal province to another. Cannot be casted in inland provinces

That's it for now. Hope you guys like these ideas.

-Gateway103

[ April 17, 2004, 18:40: Message edited by: Gateway103 ]

[Yossar]

Originally posted by Gateway103:
Water Shield (combat spell)<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except that there's already a spell called that.

[rabelais]

(cribbed from an earlier post of mine)

Water mages can take 1 troop with them for every magic level they have minus one.

(i.e. the first level sustains the mage itself.)

Items, thetis' blessing and the water cult theme are the traditional methods for keeping your favored landlubbers breathing.

IMHO the number of troops should be increased quite a bit. The water fringe benefit is weak, relative to the other paths. Even x5 or x10 wouldn't be outlandish.

Alternatively (or in addition) it could add to defense, as fire/air add to att/prec.


SCUBA Rabe

[JaydedOne]

Originally posted by rabelais:
(cribbed from an earlier post of mine)

Water mages can take 1 troop with them for every magic level they have minus one.

(i.e. the first level sustains the mage itself.)

Items, thetis' blessing and the water cult theme are the traditional methods for keeping your favored landlubbers breathing.

IMHO the number of troops should be increased quite a bit. The water fringe benefit is weak, relative to the other paths. Even x5 or x10 wouldn't be outlandish.

Alternatively (or in addition) it could add to defense, as fire/air add to att/prec.


SCUBA Rabe <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with these suggestions personally. I could see a x5 bonus, but not a x10 as that'd negate a bit too much of the advantage water races get by being water races.

The add to defense would work in the alternative, as it seems that Water's the only one of the four elemental magics that doesn't get a boost that way.

[LintMan]

I noticed that Voice of Apsu and Voice of Tiamat for some reason cannot be cast on water provinces from land (I don't know if you have to be in the water province of just underwater).

But in any case, all the other magic path's search spells work fine in water provinces remotely from land, so I'm puzzled why, - especially - water sites cannot be searched remotely in water provinces when all other paths can. Maybe for VoT, that might be reasonable since its special and covers a few magic types, but this seems an unfair penalty of VoA.

For new spells, it'd be nice if water had maybe 1-2 other useful summons, perhaps ones that weren't cold-based or water only, so that they'd be more generally useful. Maybe a big mid to high level amphibious sea creature that could be summoned on land, or something like (amphibious) water nymphs.

[JaydedOne]

A side thing that'd be very cool for water races is the equivalent of the water-breathing army items for land races. I know the ring of the fish will allow for commanders to tread on land (which makes for a happy Aboleth) but I don't know of any items that allow aquatic troops to come ashore. It sure would make those other Water summoning spells (like Call Kraken) far more palatable, particularly on maps like Inland where 90% of your fighting's on land anyway.

If there's already an item like this, just clue me in and ignore my ignorance. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Gateway103]

Originally posted by Yossar:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Gateway103:
Water Shield (combat spell)<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except that there's already a spell called that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My bad, I meant to augment the existing Water Shield with the effects I listed (I'll edit my post). Sorry if that was unclear. As it stands now, Water Shield is not as useful as say Air/Fire/Astral Shield. But giving it the property I suggested, move it up a level or two in research, and I think it would be more versatile.

-Gateway103

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by Gateway103:
Some ideas,

Water Shield (combat spell, improved Version)
- Protect target from fire (50%), as well as 20% of all attacks will miss (imagine a cyclonic barrier of water with high pressure, capable of deflecting incoming attacks. Less effective in hot dominion 2+ (say -5% per heat scale >= 2)
- If used in cold 2+ dominion, result is an Ice Shield that protects from fire (50%), and increase Armour Protection by (4 + cold scale)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Would you have it castable only under water or in land too?


Drowning Bubbles (combat spell)
- Single target, target must make MR save or loses 15hp. Receive 2pt damage if successfully resisted. Useless on amphibians, aquatic, or undead. Can't be casted underwater.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sailor's Death (3W/ Thaum 4): AreaOfEffect spell, throw mr. or die/ take heavy damage as your lungs are filled with water. No effect if resisted. Does not work on creatures that can breat water or do not need to breath.


Hail (combat spell)
- BLast a medium sized area with falling icicles. Damage is considered magical and armour piercing.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This and the Ice Wall spells are copies of existing Earth spells... I don't think your idea was to make Water Earth. Also, Earth has mud-kind of spell (Earth Bind?), so you really have to choose which ones to drop out.



Summon Geckos (ritual)
- Summon giant size 4 Geckos with recuperation, regeneration, poison attack, poison immunity, high natural protection but low defense skills.
- Summon amount is 4+
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Boosted up Bog Beasts? These just have recuperation, regeneration and high protection, and come in faster, and seemingly don't require any Nature at all even though they have many nature-only abilities... Wouldn't it be easier to mod Bog Beasts to be little stronger, and maybe change the summoning to need only one pick in Nature? That would mainly boost those nations that can get Water mages with randoms, but also anyone who winds Jade Amazons... You might not want that.



Healing Fluid (combat spell)
- Heals 6~10+ points, plus curing poison & paralysis.

Healing Shower (combat spell)
- Heals 6~10+ points on an area of 3+, plus curing poison& paralysis.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Seems to be taken from Nature (and/or Astral) magic. Check Healing Light (or Rays?), and Healing Mist(s).


Cleansing (ritual)
- Each casting has a 10% chance of curing the Diseased affliction [SNIP]
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, healings of Dominions II are restricted for nature. Anti-poisons go with nature too, although for poisoning the battlefield you need water.


Waterway (ritual)
- Allows mages and her troops to travel from one coastal province to another. Cannot be casted in inland provinces
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here is the spell that shines! I didn't really like the others (almost all are already in the game, in one way or other, or are already covered by other magics), but this is something simple yet elegant that gives land-based nations a spell they will happily pour gems into, alhtough this depends from situation. Pocket ship is better though, but everybody can't have it.

Also, if this can be cast UNDER WATER this gives the two (three?) water nations a way to move their forces quckly around. The effect is lessened by the fact that both current nations are strong in Astral, but this is still a very nice spell, IMHO.

Now, I would suggest that you check what spells exist and then post some new ideas. Your ideas were not bad, they just already exist! You said water should have some theme no other paths deal with, so make up few and send them here! I'm interestedt in reading them.

[HotNifeThruButr]

When you want to design water spells, maybe you have to ask yourself, "what does the element of water and cold represent"

While some spells in circles and schools are spread willy-nilly all over the place, you can see that some themes exist, especially in the elemental spells. Fire is tied with aggression and anger, so you see many fire spells in Evocation and none in construction. Earth is more about fortitude and creation, so it's dominant in construction and you get many unbreakable units from it. Air is most closely tied to themes of deceit and mobility, since you get illusion spells like Phantasmal Warrior, Mists of Deception, and Cloud Trapeze.

What does water represent?

Edit: I feel like The Architect, spouting a bunch of crap and nonsense that's supposed to make people try hard to figure on. Also, I'd like to say that I can't think of a thing that water and cold reflects, therefore water seems to be a scattered and weak discipline.

[ April 17, 2004, 21:18: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

[Kel]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
What does water represent?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Clams ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

- Kel

[HotNifeThruButr]

*slap* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ April 17, 2004, 21:34: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

[PvK]

I'm not convinced water is weaker than other paths at all. Sword of Swiftness and Boots of Quickness, Bottle of Living Water, and Clam of Pearls are some great items, for example. Sea Trolls and Ice Devils are quite good. Resist Fire and Cold (etc), Quickness, various other good spells. Water's defensive bless bonus is one of my Favorites for improving blessed combat unit survival.

I do like the coastal transport spell idea.

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by PvK:
I'm not convinced water is weaker than other paths at all. Sword of Swiftness and Boots of Quickness, Bottle of Living Water, and Clam of Pearls are some great items, for example. Sea Trolls and Ice Devils are quite good.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The water items are decent, but very limited. Ice devils aren't really water magic, they are blood summons, and like most of blood magic, are very useful. Sea trolls are extremely expensive for what you get out of them. A single casting of Sea King's court costs more than 55 gold per turn in upkeep. Their stats lead to them being little more than a meatshield, as they have extreme difficulty hitting elite troops.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:

Edit: I feel like The Architect, spouting a bunch of crap and nonsense that's supposed to make people try hard to figure on. Also, I'd like to say that I can't think of a thing that water and cold reflects ...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Water reflects ... light. (Think of looking at your reflection in a calm pond.) So - maybe a spell that reflects other spells, or that reflects missiles. I don't think there's any schools with a spell like this.

Give it a small chance of reflection at low levels of water skill that increases with water skill.

Another thing water represents : tranquility, fluidity, or, ahem "softness, flexibility and life giving". (That Last would be a quote from the description of T'ien C'hi's Master of the Way.)

Sure sounds like Water could be given a non-Nature healing spell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Or a ... recuperation spell, for non-combat. Maybe caster-only, takes some amount of gems to cast. Could wear off after a wound was recovered from.

Or - be castable on others, for that matter. Again, taking gems to cast, and wearing off with the death of the caster, just like almost all other spells.

Personally, I'd like the recuperation spell, to avoid all the useless gimpy Pretenders and high-cost commanders.

Or it could be given a damage reduction spell, "Water Form", that reduces damage taken by 25% or so, as water gives before a blow, softening any impact. Less powerful than Mist Form, but still pretty useful.

"Ice Castle" spell - seems silly to me that Nature mages can create an aquatic castle, but powerful Water mages can not. Only castable in cold provinces; possibly castable on land.

New summoning spells - right now, most of Water's summonings either can't leave the water, or can't go in the water. (Sea Trolls are an exception - any others?)

A spell that migrates the temperature to be colder, maybe, considering that so many of Water's spells are cold based.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
A spell that migrates the temperature to be colder, maybe, considering that so many of Water's spells are cold based. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would be wolven winter. Alteration 4, water 3, 5 gems.

[HotNifeThruButr]

If water reflects tranquility, flexibility, and etc. It seems that water would be tied to peace. What if there was a global water spell, "Tranquility," that stopped fighting for a number of turns? Every, say, 20 gems you spend on the casting extends the number for a day, but it can be dispelled by determined war mongers.

If you happened to have many more and more effective forts than your enemies, you could pump up your military and they can't stop you without a dispel.

[quantum_mechani]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
Waterway (ritual)
- Allows mages and her troops to travel from one coastal province to another. Cannot be casted in inland provinces
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here is the spell that shines! I didn't really like the others (almost all are already in the game, in one way or other, or are already covered by other magics), but this is something simple yet elegant that gives land-based nations a spell they will happily pour gems into, alhtough this depends from situation. Pocket ship is better though, but everybody can't have it.

Also, if this can be cast UNDER WATER this gives the two (three?) water nations a way to move their forces quckly around. The effect is lessened by the fact that both current nations are strong in Astral, but this is still a very nice spell, IMHO.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would like to third this excellent suggestion.

[Scott Hebert]

Something that has been hinted at earlier but doesn't _really_ exist in Dominions as of yet is reflecting things. Specifically, spells. There's blood vengeance, but that's any/all damage. You could give Water both Combat and non-Combat spells to reflect magic.

It shouldn't be simple absorption, as there is any number of spells to nullify magic (most of them Astral). And it wouldn't necessarily have to be perfect reflection; especially in Battle, just ensuring that your mage isn't the target of [insert nasty spell here] would be useful.

In a programming sense, I guess you could have it check to see if the spell is up, and then, if [check] is failed (what it needs to check, if any, is a balance factor), re-choose the target (but the target area may change).

Basically, if you refer to Fire as Aggression, than Water should be its opposite. Redirection and using its opponent's strengths should be a hallmark of Water.

What about a high-path spell that replaced the Mage's Paths with that of an enemy mage?

Just a few thoughts.

Bayushi Tasogare

[HotNifeThruButr]

If I'm supposed to get water magic to change it to a more useful path... well, doesn't it feel kinda silly?

BTW, Waterway is "fourthed"

[Taqwus]

The ability to cause a local drought (perhaps equivalent to a shift to death scale, additional supply penalty?) or cause more favorable rains (growth bonus, additional supply bonus) might seem appropriate. Water + Death also suggests some nasty globals involving well poisoning; there's no reason why poison has to remain purely within the scope of Nature.
A global that would increase income/supply in coastal provinces (lots of fish, say) would be thematic, and would serve as a nice opposite to the one that floods coastals.
A battlefield spell that countered the effects of extreme heat might also be thematic, although not especially fair unless fire got the obvious opposite.

[Saxon]

Yumm, that reflection idea is very nice. A low level spell that just pushes a spell off a bit, probably hitting someone close by would help protect the mage, but not completely nullify the spell. A medium level spell would actually bounce it straight back at the offending caster, with the precision determined by the water mages level.

I also really liked the peaceful aspect suggested. Spells that limit fighting or the recruiting of fighting units would add a new aspect to the game. It would also make the arcane domes more attractive over key recruiting centers.

Finally, I thought I would add my two cents worth. Water magic really does not hold a lot of attraction for me. It has a couple of good things, available at low levels, but distinctly seems the least desirable of the paths. A couple more spells or items (not too many) would make this a more interesting choice and avoid the risk of over balancing.

[Chris Byler]

Cutting and pasting some of my ideas from the old clams thread (now sunk into obscurity):

I'd like to see a mini Falling Frost available at a lower research level. It's a long time from Cold Bolt to Falling Frost, and other paths have already gotten several more combat options by the time FF becomes available. (Some people have since suggested that it be an area-effect Ice Strike instead, which on consideration, I like better - one of the problems with water magic is its ineffectiveness against undead, because they are immune to cold *and* Jotuns', er, Sailors' Death.)

How about a Waterspout that stays on the battlefield for a few rounds (like the Cloud spells), crushes targets and throws them around (similar to trample)? Or a Water Jet that just deals some physical damage but doesn't require another path like Geyser? Those might not work that well against supercombatants, but they'd at least help against undead or Jotun armies.

Rituals: Winter Wolves not measuring up? How about doubling the gem cost and number of wolves summoned (thus requiring fewer mages for the same wolf output)? Or how about a new water summon? Giant turtles perhaps (amphibious, size 6, very high protection, high strength bite attack)? Yetis (high hp, strength, size 3, moderate protection, cold resistant, claws+bite, you get a nice sized pack with each summon)? I think the change in seasonals was intended to move the game away from massing ethereal summons. But there's no reason that corporeal summons can't be strong and cheap enough to make a nice supplement to a conventional army.

Conceptually, sea trolls are fine, but their stats seem to not measure up.

Some have already suggested a ritual that makes all troops in a given province amphibious (either for a limited time, or permanently). Or how about a one-province Version of Thetis Blessing (spending extra gems to set the duration like Astral Window)? These could help water nations bring their aquatic troops onto land, or help a land nation invade the ocean.

Where are the items that let a commander take aquatic troops onto land? Amulet of the Fish will let Auluudh or a Nerid come out to play, but not bring Sea Serpents, War Lobsters or Crab Hybrids with them.

Passive ability: Every path of magic gives its mages some ability. Nature gives supply, fire gives leadership and attack, earth gives protection, death gives fear and undead leadership, etc. Water gives water breathing to the mage and ONE unit per level of water magic. This is, frankly, pathetic, especially on a path that is already among the weakest in most other areas. Instead, why not let a water mage bring ALL his troops underwater? Most mages have low leadership anyway, but the few who have good leadership (or +leadership items) can lead whole armies underwater. Or at least raise it to 5-10 troops (or 10 total size of troops) per level of water magic. One unit per level is horrible, even if the unit is a Crusher or similar expensive summon (of a non-water path, I don't see any water unit that would be worth bringing).


I'm not sure that all these suggestions (and those of others on this thread) should be implemented at once - it might be too much. But I think there's a clear consensus that water magic is less useful than other paths, especially against cold immune opponents (cold is the most common immunity I think, even more common than poison - and nature has *plenty* of other uses). Adding more spells and items seems to be something that Illwinter enjoys doing, and if it both adds variety to the game and improves game balance, so much the better.

[Chris Byler]

Oh, and I also like Reflect (works like Air Shield but deflects spells?) and Waterway (which, IMO, should work to/from any coastal or sea province - possibly with a restriction to prevent it becoming the new Dom I Gateway, such as destination must be friendly dominion or under friendly control).

A large area Sailors' Death might be effective too. That'll make your opponents wish they had invested in Antimagic.

A Mass Desiccation might be good too - doesn't affect inanimates but does affect cold immunes.

Also, both Desiccation and Sailors' Death seem to have excessive path requirements for their effect (Desiccation only gradually increases fatigue, Sailors' Death has moderate precision and both are negated by MR and don't affect inanimates). Why not 1 for Desiccation, 2 for Sailors' Death?

Finally, a question for Illwinter - was water magic *intended* to be nearly useless against undead, to represent its opposition to fire magic which is very strong vs. undead? Or is that just a side effect of so many water spells being cold based or not affecting inanimate targets?

[Endoperez]

Water is the path of Balance, it is the element that evens things. Water should have more spells that are the oopposites of each other. Flood and heavy storms on the other hand, then draught, then the gentle rains of spring that let the world grow again...

The rain spells tilting the scale to Growth or Death seems like a good idea to me. Maybe even a spell causing fresh, growth-abiding rains in spring and summer, crop-destroying storms on autumn and cold blizzards in winter?

Also, Water form is a nice idea. Water Elementals really need something like that! It could even increase gradually, with even 50% reduction on damage being possible. That should only be for some special summons, like Water Elementals, that would have low/no protection... 20% seems good for protectiona spell. As it works best versus high damage, it would be most useful on a strong creature fighting versus strong creature(s). Sc vs Jotuns? Or even SC vs SC!

Also, I really like how Water Elementals are Ice Elementals instead in cold provinces. Does anyone have ideas for morphing monsters?

[Wendigo]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:

Rituals: Winter Wolves not measuring up? How about doubling the gem cost and number of wolves summoned (thus requiring fewer mages for the same wolf output)? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dislike how Winter Wolves were doubly nerfed in the change from Dom I to Dom II, they have had their cost doubled (this is OK, same as the other Seasonals), but they _additionally_ lost their 'weather influenced' stats, so they have much poorer at, def & str in cold provinces.

[ April 19, 2004, 18:35: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

[Vicious Love]

Too many of these suggestions would make water too much like the other paths. The sort of battlefield mojo suggested here really sounds more like fire magic, and the overland population killers/economy disrupters are already present in plenty of other paths. Methinks we should make what water already has more powerful, rather than making all the other paths less unique and ruining water's style and the strategies associated with it in the process.
The Waterways spell is definitely fifthed, and reflection definitely fits water's symbolic aspect, though I worry about balance issues.
The water path peripheral benefit is definitely the feeblest of them all, but allowing water mages to bring 5-10 units underwater with them might ruin the water races' home court advantage, and make certain higher levels spells kinda useless. Besides, water mages can already supplement native oceanic troops with kickass aquatic summons the moment a land nation has a foothold in the sea.
I'd much rather see water mages get either a defense bonus, or something a bit more useful for non-melee mages, though I'm not entirely sure what.
If entirely new types of spell really are necessary, there's plenty that water symbolizes which isn't quite covered by the other paths, such as the adapatability/malleability/motion/fluid gooeyness evident in Quickness and in the Masters of the Way, coupled with the serenity also seen in the Masters, but not readily apparent in any actual spells.
If you positively must rip off the other paths, there're probably things that can be done with scrying that retain that watery touch, rather than being pure astral.

[PvK]

Good point, V.L..

I bet a group quickness high-level water spell that cost water gems would be an effective addition.

I think Ice fortresses are a neat idea, though they should probably only work in cold provinces.

An Ice Wall spell to block land access (and supply and gold and resources via castles) to a province might be interesting too. It would have a strength based on the number of gems put into it, and get worn down both by heat scale and by units trying to enter (using their seige ability). Might be more work for IW than it's worth, though. Maybe a Dom3 idea.

Edit: Oh, and here's an amusing idea for a combat spell that would only work (best?) in cold provinces: Snowball - a growing rolling snowball that rolls through enemy formations trampling them...

PvK

[ April 19, 2004, 20:38: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by PvK:

I bet a group quickness high-level water spell that cost water gems would be an effective addition.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is called 'quickening' alt lvl 8, area 5

[Endoperez]

I though Ice Fortress would be something like your Ice Wall idea, temporary fort that gets destroyed when sieged and/or when it melts. It could get bad with some Earth rituals though.

Very Powerful cursed magical item costing 80 water gems and giving the wielder +1 on any magic path, including those he doesn't have. If it was an armor no-one would be able to wear two of them.

Good ones, IMO, are Water Way, Watery Form, Reflection, propably some others I forgot.

Maybe water should be Random magic? That would link Water and Luck together. I can't really come up with other things than that Robe of the Rainbow, and that is just pure random. Maybe Gandalf could give us some hints?

[PvK]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by PvK:

I bet a group quickness high-level water spell that cost water gems would be an effective addition.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is called 'quickening' alt lvl 8, area 5 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds wicked, assuming it gives the +3/+3, +AP, and multiple attacks. You guys sure Water needs help? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Edit: I guess you do have to survive to Alt level 8, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

PvK

[ April 19, 2004, 21:21: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Norfleet]

One catch that everyone may be missing is that what's important here is good water RITUALS: All the combat spells in the world can't really become a large enough gem sink to make water gems useful for non-clams. Water magic has to compete on the strength of its rituals, as it already has a fair number of combat spells which tend to run the gamut from godly (quickness, quickening), to useless in most situations(water strike, water shield).

There are, however, very few worthwhile ritual spells.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Endoperez:
I though Ice Fortress would be something like your Ice Wall idea, temporary fort that gets destroyed when sieged and/or when it melts. It could get bad with some Earth rituals though. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I meant to suggest both. A fortress is an HQ and a place to hide, but can be bypassed. A wall would block all movement (except flying & magical) in and out of the province, and wouldn't serve as a fort. Water already has a ritual to freeze the surface of all water provinces, so a limited ice wall around one province might be considered reasonable.

PvK

[Slygar]

Just a quick thought. It's always seemed kind of silly to me that Air evocation spells work underwater, while water's dont. I would think it would be pretty suicidal to throw a bolt of lightning at someone underwater. But shouldn't spells like Ice Strike function there? After all, you'd just be freezing some of the surroundings and hurling it at the enemy, which would probably be easier than just generating the ball of ice out of nowhere like normal.
And no risk of electrocuting yourself either!

Note that I dont mean ALL water evocation spells, like Falling Frost and Neifel Flames would obviously be excluded, but Ice Strike, Cold Bolt, and Cold BLast should definately work underwater, I think. Also note that my assumption that Lightning Bolt, Orb Lightning, and Thunderstrike do work underwater comes from the manual, so if thats not true, dont flay me alive.

[Jondifool]

just some thoughts? trying to be inspired by the good points about uniqeness and about need for monthly rituals

I had been thinking a little on the status of light infantery as discussed here
http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=002364

couldn't water magic be a suitable candidate to improve the use and strenght on light inf.

something like changing the whole battlefield to a muddy place, where heavy inf is severly punished. But thats maybe to similar to other spells. A ritual improving the use for LIs was maybe a neat option. I tend to think of water magic as defensive and as such I think of something making defense of a provinse a little more poverfull or giving some good skirmish powers

A option was a lower upkeep spell/ritual working for LIs (or all tropps) in the one province where the spell is cast? Basicly this makes the water gems able to turn into gold when enough troops are gathered.

But forgetting about the LI talk I have been thinking that if water need some really unique and usefull monthly ritual , what about one turning water only troops into troops cabable of going on land/and in sea.

This could be done by changing the aquatic ability to amhibian or something similar.
Or it could be something like a mermaid curse , where a few troops gets a disease/ and now has to change and go on land/into the sea or loose hp. Or gets some limmited rounds to go on land in!

(this could maybe even be combined with clamps -if clamps was turned into something like the fewer fetish forced to be hold on land- but thats another topic).

well thats pretty vaque but someone might want to comment on it anyway

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Jondifool:
something like changing the whole battlefield to a muddy place, where heavy inf is severly punished. But thats maybe to similar to other spells. A ritual improving the use for LIs was maybe a neat option. I tend to think of water magic as defensive and as such I think of something making defense of a provinse a little more poverfull or giving some good skirmish powers
well thats pretty vaque but someone might want to comment on it anyway <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm. Maybe a spell that muddies the entire battlefield. Light Infantry (and militia, etc) aren't affected, but HI and Cavalry, any high armor units, take penalties. -2 to Defense, -2 to protection for anything over, say, 8 armor protection? No effect on flyers, maybe no effect on units with Swamp survival.

This would reflect military history in the effects - cavalry ruled the battlefield, armored foot also did quite well. But in rainy, muddy conditions, the unarmored opponents were able to overcome. Horses slip in the mud, everyone does - but the LI and skirmishers were able to get up quicker and stick sharp pointy objects through the chinks in the armor.

Then again - this doesn't actually fix water, nor does it fix LI - it only helps make things not-so-bad if you have both.

[ April 21, 2004, 17:29: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

[Vicious Love]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Then again - this doesn't actually fix water, nor does it fix LI - it only helps make things not-so-bad if you have both. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Agreed. Nonetheless, I second it. Furthermore, I recommend penalties be based on encumbrance, not armor. Good armor is one thing, heavy armor is... usually the same thing. Usually. I'm wondering whether base encumbrance should also be factored in. I'm inclined to say "yes", since bird boned Caelians and purely hypothetical hypermetabolic skaven can't handle their mud nearly as well as humans.
Let's not dwell on this too long, though, no need to hijack a water mojo thread with our LI propaganda.

[Baalz]

How about a water battlefield enchantment (or global?) to reduce everyone's attack skill. In general this would make battles Last longer and thus let the encumberance advantage of LI be worth more. Of course, it would also accentuate the advantage of elite units...

Water should have some more good climate changing effects like Wolven Winter. I like the idea of a Very Powerful item which shifts the scale of a province to cold. It fits the theme and is similar to some other items. How about a Drout spell that shifts a province towards death? A combination of multiple Wolven Winters and Drouts would be a worthy gem sink in a lot of situations...

[Vicious Love]

Only have 2 metric minutes to post, so I'll be brief.
How about an alteration combat spell, in 3 possible variants(Single target, large area, and Inner Sun style death curse) which can only be cast/triggered underwater, and renders the target/s aquatic? Amphibians, poor amphibians, water mages and their retinues, anyone who fails to resist would be incapable of leaving the ocean without an amulet of the fish. Stylish, appropriate, and only rasies 1 question, that of whether poor amphibians would retain their penalties for fighting underwater.
A similar spell with slightly different style could simply afflict target water mages/amphibians/aquatic units with the mermen's curse, meaning they'd have to return to water every so often, amulets of the fish nonwithstanding. If this spell had a small area effect(Meant to be used on commanders) but could be used on land based units ordinarily incapable of entering the sea, that might serve to complicate things nicely.
I actually got the idea for this curse when toying with a nature battlefield enchantment, "Circe's Caprice". Irreversible, insanely random(And affected by fortune scale) mix of Polymorph, Transformation and Cross Breeding, which affects both sides in any given battle(Including the caster, but that's what mage MR is for. Besides, the effects aren't necessarily negative). If we start grasping at straws, I can see how a, shall we say, fish-based variant of that might work, though I imagine actually coding this sort of thing could be a major headache.
The second spell could also have a blood/nature or blood/earth counterpart which binds units/commanders to a particular province, a la hamadryads, certain vampire myths, and much, much more. Not that that's on topic, or anything, I just find it cool.

Time elapsed! See ya.

[Vicious Love]

Anyone here read Planetary?

Groinshatter
Water 1, Alteration 3, precision 100, range 10, fatigue cost 40, MR easily negates. Effects include 2 armor negating damage, paralysis, and immunity to succubi. If affected, the Lord of the Hunt and Lord of Fertility are completely destroyed.

[Vicious Love]

Cue a display of idle schlongery the likes of which has not been seen since the Athens of yore. Let's breathe some life into these fora.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Vicious Love is a scary man... a very scary man.

I think I figured out what water magic means . Most of their spells are geared towards defense because they're more effective in your home turf. Many water spells are underwater only, so forget about flexibility there. Others are heavily influenced by cold domains, so they're superb with the -heim races and Caelum, but less than mediocre for those battles away from home, where your faith doesn't prevail, or worse, in Abysian/Machakan territory. Raise your hand if you see the inherent flaw in this philosophy when applied to a game about WAR and EXPANSION?

What about a high level ritual that would give your units Amphibian (NOT poor amphibian) traits? I don't feel like putting any stats, but I guess it should be alteration, and for each gem you spend, you can make 3 size worth of units amphibian.

Another ritual for water might be "Healing Spring." It's a low levelled conjuration or alteration spell that creates a healing spring in a province. The spring gives everyone in the same province Recuperation.

[Minrhael]

I like healing spring, except the low level part; wounds are supposed to be fairly difficult to get rid of, I'd make it perhaps 6th level (as opposed to 8th for Chalice or Faerie Court). A little lower in level so Water gets a boost, but high enough to keep wounds significant.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Minrhael:
I like healing spring, except the low level part; wounds are supposed to be fairly difficult to get rid of, I'd make it perhaps 6th level (as opposed to 8th for Chalice or Faerie Court). A little lower in level so Water gets a boost, but high enough to keep wounds significant. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd see it as useful it were a lower-level, perhaps somewhat expensive, say, 50W spell. By bumping it up higher level, it's starting to tread on the toes of things like GoH, the Chalice, Faerie Court, etc.

[Cainehill]

Having recently played a not-too ill-fated Atlantis for the first time, I'd like to reemphasize something others have said. Water 9 has a great blessing, sure.

But other than the blessing, there seems to be almost no reason to take water to high levels : great early low level spells, sure. A couple of good to great low to mid level forgings (in terms of Water magic needed).

Get up to the very powerful and artifact level though, and ... Water seems to have almost jack. I pushed a water-5 national mage up to water 8, finding ... nothing. (Orb of Atlantis is the highest, and it only requires W4 plus E1.)

Everything but blood researched to 8 or 9, it seems that water -should- have some good high level spells (as others do) and also at least a couple of decent powerful magic items and artifacts.

But it doesn't, but it seems like it should. The Chalice? Shouldn't that be water? A powerful artifact sword that protected its wielder and healed his wounds - originates from the Lady of the Lake in Arthurian legends.

Maybe, given what water supposedly represents - an artifact that gives access to some non-water spells?

Hmmm. A Magic Pool artifact, requiring high water magic, that gives a choice of Akashic Record or Astral Window, no gems required? Or even if it only gave a choice from the other lower level scrying spells.

Cloak or Armor of Water - an artifact armor that gives mistform (being liquid makes it similarly difficult to land a solid blow) or etherealty, and gives 50% resistance to fire, cold, and lightning, since water buffers against all of those?

There was a cup given to kings, that protected from poison - some other bonus would seem reasonable as well. Maybe reduced cost for all water summonings, or a plus to water magic?

Just a tired wolf's attempt to raise the red lantern, er, consciousness about water's woes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
But it doesn't, but it seems like it should. The Chalice? Shouldn't that be water?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The chalice is the holy grail, so astral and nature makes quite a bit of sense with how magic works in game.

[Tuna-Fish]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Having recently played a not-too ill-fated Atlantis for the first time, I'd like to reemphasize something others have said. Water 9 has a great blessing, sure.

But other than the blessing, there seems to be almost no reason to take water to high levels <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Many of water combat spells increase heavily in strenght as caster level increases. Just try falling frost at lvl-11... It's a battlefield cleaner.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Cainehill:


Everything but blood researched to 8 or 9, it seems that water -should- have some good high level spells (as others do) and also at least a couple of decent powerful magic items and artifacts.

But it doesn't, but it seems like it should. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Water does have great magic items already such as: Boots_of_Quickness, Clams(very popular), Jade_Armor, Sword_of_Swiftness,...)
I see these items listed in topics all the time


Water magic already has a great bless bonus, popular items thru forging, and 1 water allows travel into the water territories. And a spell like quickness for 1 water is awesome with any mage. Water seems fine in my opinion.

[ May 20, 2004, 16:31: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Endoperez]

Water is good at low levels, just as the bumper posted. BUT, at higher levels there is next top nothing to use that expensive Water-9 for.

Cainehill did say that there are great mid-level items that require water, and that there are nice low-to-mid level spells. But as Murdering Winter is propably the Last pure Water spell at high levels, going for Water 9 for bless effect only gets you the bless effect.

[Vicious Love]

Had a few random thoughts on the water magic path today, concluded they were just cause to resurrect this thread. Methinks these are better than my previous suggestions(Well, except Groinshatter) because, thus far, two distinct complaints have been put forth regarding the water path:
1) That water is underpowered, which is sillier than a colloquialism indicating degree of silliness via colorful allegory, and
2) That, even with the water 9 blessing, players have no reason to invest in high levels of water, as all the best spells are lower level. This latter claim is, in my opinion, truer than a spit-shined tautology on Easter.

My prior suggestions, although groin-annihilatingly good, failed to address complaint #2. I say unto you, that ends… now.

Proposition I – Hermit's Rebirth
The Spiel: People(Me) have complained that many(Not all) of the proposed high-level water spells mentioned earlier in this thread disregard both the essential style and symbolism of water, and the unique strategic/tactical niche of the water magic path. While it's true that many spells from different paths achieve relatively similar effects, I'd rather not see water magic become "Just like death, nature, & fire, only weaker". Mind you, I still think a "Miscellaneous" path would be deeply cool, but that's a story for another day.
My point being, a truly high level water spell should do something no other spell can, something potentially unbalanced, something that has the Dom 2 community in a nerf-demanding uproar. And so, at level 5 or 6(Below Ritual of Rebirth, at any rate), at path level 7 or 8, in either Thaumaturgy, Enchantment, or maybe even Alteration, we should have a water(Or possibly water/death, water/nature, or even water/astral) spell which is, at first glance, just like the Ritual of Rebirth, only better and more path-intensive. Not only will this spell resurrect a dead hero and return him to an immaculate, unembalmed state, it'll even remove all afflictions and, furthermore, all curses and horror marks, an unprecedented feat of symbolic moisture. You can even use it on a living hero, if you like. The catch? Almost purely symbolic.
You see, this spell plays on the Tao Te T'ien Chi/Heraklitus aspect of water, the paradoxical mutability/immutability, motion/stasis, formlessness/multiplicity. It also throws incorporates a frankly unnerving and entirely unintentional bit of Freudian/Jungian return to the womb. Ick. The water washes away everything, not just death and injury, but memory, identity, existence itself. It simultaneously sanctifies and empowers these notions, but that's religious paradox for ya. Point is, instead of Mu-ing the affected hero out of existence, it reduces his experience to 0, removes the effects of any empowerment, returning him to his base magic levels, removes his kill record and all those sins Marignon are all worked up about(No more Vengeance of the Dead for him) and, consequently, removes him from the hall of heroes. At least prophets remain prophets. If this now seems appallingly underpowered, there's an alternative, albeit a frighteningly exploitable one. Instead of the hero losing his deeds and legend simply because he's reduced to a quasinatal state, his legend lives on independently of him, Earthdawn Naming style. The hero retains still loses his stats, but nonetheless retains his position in the Hall of Heroes. He therefore possesses a heroic ability. But not the one he had before the rebirth. Now THAT'S what I call powerfully symbolic change. Keep in mind his new ability'd be at the same level of power as the one he had before. Quickness 300% for everyone! Explotalicious!
This spell shouldn't affect mindless heroes, as it's all about FINDING mindlessness, nor should it affect demons, which were presumably never born, have no innocence to which to return, and are too fundamentally attuned to cosmic and spiritual goals and missions to achieve the passive, zen acceptance of stuff in general which is part and parcel of this spell. Ditto for angels. I don't see why undead wouldn't be affected, in a gothy, Anne Ricey way, with the exception of immortal undead. Besides which, if you manage to get an immortal killed outside your dominion, you don't deserve her back.
Wished for Horrors shouldn't be affected, either, but that's awfully case-specific, innit?
Ooh, bit of an afterthought, shouldn't heroes with no levels in death magic affected by the death magic Ritual of Rebirth gain a level or two in death? I mean, they’ve been DEAD.

The Straight Skinny:
Research level 5 or 6
Thaumaturgy, Enchantment, or Alteration
Water 7, Water 8, or Water 7/1 Death, Nature, or possibly Astral
Gem cost: Search me. 10 or 15, like the Ritual of Rebirth, makes sense, unless you go for the Version that empowers in water or transmutes heroic abilities.
Effect: Affects a friendly unit in the Hall of Heroes, returning it to life if dead, removing afflictions, curses, horror marks, and empowered magic levels, and reducing its kills and experience to 0. One Version removes the hero from the Hall of Heroes, and strips him of his heroic ability. An exploitable alternate Version swaps his existing ability with a random alternate ability.
Does not affect demons, mindless units, or immortal undead.

Proposition II – Ghostwater Tides
The Spiel & The Straight Skinny: Not much to explain here, it's like Thetis' Blessing in reverse. All aquatic units can freely swim around on ethereal currents on land, becoming part of a clichéd surrealist schtick… THAT KILLS. Land sharks terrorizing the populace, triggerfish stealing pies off windowsills, kraken running for public office, nudibranchs just kinda nudibranching around. Level-, path-, and cost-wise, this spell should probably be just like Thetis' Blessing, though it just MIGHT necessitate a level or two of astral(The ether plus the moon and tides) or air.
Lasts until it is dispelled or replaced, a few seconds before a resounding fishy SPLAT is heard throughout the surface world. It would be nice if said fishy SPLAT could result in a month-long supply bonus.

Proposition III – Maps with more ocean provinces. Sure, it leaves Ulm in a bit of an unpleasant position, but we can't ignore the fact that, stylistically speaking, water is meant to dominate the seas, not the land. This results in water being the ultimate defensive path(Which is especially good for R'lyeh, since using Astral without ever leaving your unassailable home is a perfectly viable strategy, especially with clams providing pearls). However, no one seems to have much cause to wage war in the water until the endgame, since it takes a hell of a commitment to defeat the two water nations on their own turf. More water=more frequent use of those spells most people consider useless. Then again, this doesn't solve the problem of the best water magic being low-level. Getting back on track…

Proposition IV – Acknowledge Thing That Is Not
The Spiel: Heh. Cute name, if I say so meself. Maybe R'lyeh Should Not Be, but the Thing That Is Not is one step ahead of them, baby! It's even ahead of all those Nameless Things we've heard so much about.
This level 9 water/death, water/air or water/astral Conjuration calls into being a formless, tireless, relentless, shoeless embodiment of Nothing in Particular. More of a very abstract symbolic fusion of water and air, as suggested above, than a straightforward manifestation of water, the Thing cannot be caught, cannot be slowed, cannot be fought, cannot be reasoned with, and will kill Sarah Connor if it's the Last thing it does. It's ethereal, faster than God(Well, most god chasses, anyway), possibly mistformed or glamoured, causes fear, has insanely high defense skill and magic resistance, is a size 4 or 5 trampler, recuperates(Or simply can't get battle afflictions, curses or horrormarks), regenerates(Sloughs off the illusion that there is anything there to hurt, that is), has 0 encumbrance, and is stealthier than a greased heliophagus on a moonless night. Being both an extension of the path most closely associated with deflection and redirection and of Nothing and Nowhere(In their most approachable guise, mind you), the Thing also has Blood Vengeance(!), because hitting yourself is much, much easier than hitting an abstraction of nonexistence which happens to be able to trample you to smithereens.
It should have at least one ordinary damage causing attack, in addition to a bunch of secondary effects one tends to associate with going into hand to hand combat with The Void, such as blindness, feeblemind and Soul Slay.
It's also an assassin, and what an assassin! A massive tidal wave of nothingness too stealthy for any sentry to detect rising out of nowhere, that's enough to make any commander appreciate the surreal beauty of high-level Conjuration. Ironically enough, it also gives most commanders a deep appreciation of the merits of Being Elsewhere, even though that's technically where the Thing is.
So, what are its disads? Being nothing, it can't use magic items, not even miscellaneous ones. If at all possible, it should be made immune to empowerment and heroism. Tee hee, "immune to heroism". It might be the very best out-of-the-box pretender killing assassin conceivable, but it can never be a true SC, and abominations, tarrasques, hordes from hell, and other level 9 summons should all be substantially more cost effective against armies. In fact, terrifying as these things are in single combat, a well prepared fire or air magic wielding army can take one out with relative ease. Provided they can handle the blood vengeance.
Still, if your Bane Spiders keep failing to carry out the contract on that Vastness or Otherness, this is the Other Otherness for you. Also fun at sieges! Good luck keeping this thing out of anywhere!
Oh, and it has leadership 0, obviously enough. I mean, duh.

The Straight Skinny:
Research level 9
Conjuration
Water 8 or 9 combined with 3 or 4 levels of death, astral, or air
Gem cost: Lots. On par with abominations and tarrasques
Effect: Summons one Thing That Is Not
HP: ? Size: 4 or 5 PROTECTION: 0 MORALE: 30 MAGIC RESISTANCE: Right up there with Doom Horrors. STRENGTH: ? ATTACK: ? DEFENSE: Obscenely high. PRECISION: 7. For no reason. MOVE: 3/Faster than you ENCUMBRANCE: 0
Regenerates(?%), Trampler, Ethereal, Blood Vengeance(+?), Glamour?, Mistform?, Causes Fear(+?), Recuperation(100%), Stealthy(+30), Assassin, Need Not Eat, Mindless, Magic Being, All Survivals, Siege Bonus(+?)

Proposition V – Secret Ears
The Spiel: Fish see a lot of things. Birds and badgers and whatever see a lot more, but they're constantly squawking about it to whomever deigns to listen. Fish tell no tales. They're hiding something. But we're on to them. Secrets have power. Power is fun. This spell is like the Eyes of God, only way better. Thing is, it only works on ocean and river provinces. It's not that high-path, so it doesn't fix the lack of high-path water spells, but it sure is spiffy. If we insist on making it higher level(Though it would overlap astral a bit too much), we can give it a really limited and unreliable Strands of Arcane Power site-finding effect in friendly provinces, possibly limited to water magic sites or to level 1 or 2 sites. If this spell could be logicallt combined with Ghostwater Tides without being overpowered, that'd be supercool.
School'd be Conjuration, because of the fishies, or Thaumaturgy, because of the secrets.

The Straight Skinny: Heh, I get it, "The Straight Skinny", just like in Starship Troopers.
Research level 5. 6 or 7 for site-finding Versions.
Conjuration or Thaumaturgy
Water 5 or 6. 7 or 8 for site-finding Versions.
Gem Cost: 50
Effect: Accurate scrying info on military, income, supplies, resources, and buildings in all water and river regions, Eyes of God style patrol bonus in friendly dominion. Hardcore Version acts as limited site-finder in friendly dominion. Lasts until it is dispelled or the caster is killed. If possible, does not work while the caster is away from water.

Proposition VI – Dome of Arcane Deflection
The Spiel & The Straight Skinny: Miniscule variant of what's already been suggested. It's a dome. You extend its duration with gems. It has a 30% chance of redirecting any spell cast at it to a neighboring province, a 20% chance of redirecting it to a random province in the world, a 10% chance of redirecting it at the caster's province, or the caster if it's a commander-targeting spell.

Proposition VII – Erosion/Thoughts Like Raindrops/Name Pending
The Spiel & The Straight Skinny: It's just like Antimagic, only in reverse, at a different research level, path level, & fatigue cost, possibly under Evocation. All enemies' magic resistance drops for the duration of the battle. There is no resistance roll to prevent this. Unfortunately, this seems like yet another water/astral combo. Bad sign, that is. A very bad sign. Ah, well, what can ya do? At least they're symbolically consistent.

Proposition VIII – Theft of Reason
The Spiel: Remember Hermit's Rebirth? Like that, only in a bad way. The target reaches a profound spiritual awareness, ascending beyond our petty worldly concerns and, in the process, becomes thoroughly useless. This sounds like another water/astral combo, unless you want to reinterpret it to mean water simply washes away the commander's sanity. It's advantage(And what an advantage!) is that it is guaranteed to target commanders, and water is not a path known for precise battle magic. Its disadvantage is a higher fatigue cost than, say, Soul Slay, and less impressive results.
Those successfully affected have a 33% chance of being feebleminded, a 33% chance of being muted(Theft of speech), a 33% chance of losing commander status, and a 5% chance of actually transcending the physical plane. So, even if a target fails its resistance roll, there's a 0.77^3*0.9 chance of nothing happening. Of course, there's a 5% chance of transcendence, in which case the target is effectively dead, and cannot be resurrected by the Ritual of Rebirth, or anything else, for that matter. Including immortality. If this cannot be easily coded, I suppose the target could always be killed, muted, feebleminded, paralyzed(200), and gain the "Enlightened" or "Inanimate" battle affliction, which is harder to heal than a never healing wound and reduces EVERYTHING to 0. THAT oughta drive the point home.
Depending on how important success is, this spell is mid- to high-level.

The Straight Skinny:
Research level 5
Evocation or Thaumaturgy
Water 2 or 3, possibly Astral 1 or 2, as well
Fatigue Cost: 40 or 50 if level 3, 70 or 80 if level 2
Effect: 33% chance of "mute" affliction, 33% chance of feeblemind, 33% chance of loss of commander status,
Magic resistance negates
Does not affect mindless units

Proposition IX – The Path Confounds/The Path Yields/It's a Long, Long Road, From Which There is no Return
The Spiel & The Straight Skinny: Kinda like Theft of Reason, only as a GLOBAL. Strikes at random, independently of the caster's dominion. Painful stuff. Affects only commanders, but does so with much, much greater regularity than Wrath of God, for instance. Fortunately, those who stand to lose the most(Mages) traditionally have high magic resistance, but this spell should be a nightmare for nations such as Ulm, who would constantly need to replace rank-and-file commanders in order to move their armies around. On the bright side, they'd be able to supplement these armies with small squads of elite former commanders. Unfortunately for the caster, this affects his own commanders as well. Fortunately for the caster, as well as Pythium, Caelum, Atlantis, R'lyeh, Mictlan, Jotunheim, anyone with mages who get elemental randoms, and anyone willing to empower his favorite commanders, water mages are far less likely to be affected(Not sure how much less likely, but something along the lines of how earth makes you resistant to Wind Ride).
Effectiveness of all research, except that of water mages, is also decreased, and ritual spells and item forgings have a chance of failing(No gems are lost. Well, maybe a handful).
Surprise, surprise, this one seems like water/astral, too. I guess that's what happens when you fixate on the symbolic aspects of water. Anyway, this'd clearly be a very high level spell. It fills a strategic and thematic niche unoccupied by other magical paths, and it's very, very powerful, though perhaps not as powerful as…

Proposition X – Spell With Cool Name
The Spiel: Presumably, all life in Dom 2, with the exception of R'lyeh and Abyssia, originated in the oceans. The Sea King was kind enough to let them move out and do things their way, despite the fact that the ingrates were mooching off him at every turn, completely and utterly dependent on his water, his salt, his color blue to live full and color-coordinated lives.
He let them go and found their little kingdoms, he opened wide the vault of the First Bank of Water, he doled out water through cloud, through river, through lake, through cocktail, let it fill their fields, their blood, their waterbeds. And so, life ground on(Very anti-water expression, that, but does the Sea King mind? No, 'cause he's such a swell guy), thoroughly oblivious to just how deep in debt it was, because the Sea King is a nice guy, and never felt the urge to collect on any of the millions of years of life he's so generously let the surface world have. Then the Ascension Wars came.

The Straight Skinny:
Research level 9
Conjuration, Evocation, or maybe Enchantment
Water 9, or maybe even 10
Gem cost: Whoah, Nellie! At least as much as Utterdark or Illwinter.
Effect: All non-underwater provinces experience an unspeakably sharp drop in supplies. Even growth-3 nations should be unable to field more than the tiniest of armies without supply producing mages/items, and no death-3 nation should have more than 0 supplies in any province. Unrest rises to unmanageable heights, a la Illwinter, populations drop off like flies, a la Burden of Time, the effectiveness of bloodhunting is decreased nearly to the point of nonexistence(Dousing -3 or 4, at the very least. Can't tap the power of blood when its very substance refuses to cooperate, and everyone's spontaneously anemic).
Does not interfere with Perpetual Storm(Dry ice, anyone?), adds +1 or possibly +2 to penetration of Lure of the Deep.
Remains in effect until dispelled, the caster is killed, the province in which it was cast is captured(And the Sea King's vault opened), or everyone dehydrates
May only be cast underwater
Logically speaking, Abyssia should probably be immune to these effects, with the exception of bloodhunting. Would this be unbalancing, though? Ermor and the two underwater nations are already immune or semi-immune, after all. Either way, this spell, especially combined with Lure of the Deep and Sea of Ice, would really increase the effectiveness of the defensive tactics which suit the two underwater nations so well.

Last of all, Proposition XI – Lobstercall
The Speil & The Straight Skinny: Calls a lobster.





















Lobster sticks to magnet.

Update: Added space between body of post and "Lobster sticks to magnet", for added effect. I'm an artiste. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ June 20, 2004, 01:38: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

[Vicious Love]

Wow. Erm, my suggestion is to either skip the description of the first spell, and get right to "The Straight Skinny" for the proposed effect, or skip the first spell altogether.

Anyway, thoughts, opinions? Naturally, I don't expect any of this to actually be implemented, but the concept's kinda nice, innit? As long as we're discussing insanely high level water magic.

[Vicious Love]

Afterthought: Things That Are Not should all be named "Nothing". If a player renames one, a white-gloved hand should come out of their monitor and slap them. This should be accompanied by a hilarious sound effect, but have genuinely terrifying undertones, in a David Cronenberg sort of way.
Kinda like slipping on a banana peel and landing faceefirst in a meringue pie, except that later something kills you in your sleep.
But I digress.

[Jack Simth]

Here's a random one:

Provincial Quickening
Alteration 8
Requires 7(?) water, 1(?) nature (alternately, 7(?) water, 1(?) blood)
Costs 50(?) water gems
Causes every female in the targeted province to become pregnant and give birth virtually overnight, effecting a 50% increase in the population. However, the sudden influx of mouths to feed causes a sever disruption to society (forces scales to turmoil-3, sloth-3, death-3, and increases unrest by 200). This spell can target both friendly and enemy provinces.

Used offensively, it pretty much denies the target value from the province for a while - blood hunting doesn't work until the unrest goes down, taxes are pretty much nothing until unrest and turmoil go down, resources are pretty much nothing until unrest and sloth go down. About the only thing stuff can be gotten out of a province targetted by this spell (for a while, anyway) are the stuff from sites.

Used locally, it's a long-term investment - you set taxes to 0 and arrange for your dominion to push the scales back. After several turns, you have a province with (about) 50% more people in it than previously - which means about 50% more income and recources.

A note to those who are curious - the water and alteration choices are based on a pun; as I understand it, "quickening" is (was?) archaic English for the first time a woman felt a baby move in her womb; "Quickening" is a water spell in the alteration path, and this spell speeds things up considerably.

Oh, and a thought on the Thing That Is Not - all its attacks and offensive abilities should have "Magic Resistence Negates" (as per attacks from illusions) and "Doesn't Affect Mindless" - after all, it doesn't exist; it can't affect the universe directly - only through thinking beings that aknoweledge it.

As to making it immune to empowerment, give it a forced, permanent affliction: "FeebleMinded", but have it otherwise immune to all afflictions.

[ June 20, 2004, 02:57: Message edited by: Jack Simth ]

[Vicious Love]

Heh. Great spell idea, if I say so myself.
As for the Thing That Is Not, I came to the same conclusion you did, was dissatisfied with it and, using the power of logical bias, came to a better conclusion. I reasoned that, in IC terms, phantasm is not the same as "aggressive nothingness". One addles the mind, the other addles reality. Also, magic nothing is in many ways unlike ordinary nothing(Which can be easily resisted).
I came to these counterintuitive conclusions because I felt that making high MR offer absolute protection from the Thing will greatly diminish its effectiveness in its principal role: Cosmically unlikely superassassin. As it was never meant to rival the abomination and its ilk in other roles, this would leave the Thing underpowered.
Nonetheless, its attacks do have plenty of resistable side effects, since I simply couldn't disregard magic resistance altogether, when it's so logically appropriate.

[Vicious Love]

Just clarifying something about my proposed dome, those probabilites were meant to be results on a percentile roll, not separate checks. So 01-30=Neighboring province(Good, but not that good), 31-50=Random province(Good, bad, whatever. Fun.), 51-60=Reflection(Booyah!), 61-00=Nothing(Not the ethereal trampling assassin kind).

[Jack Simth]

Here's one:

Dream of Turmoil
Conjuration 6 (path from Voice of Tiamat, as they both deal with dreams)
Water 6, Astral 1
Gem cost: ???
This spell causes the caster to fall into a trance, and dreams of what would happen if every unit and commander in this province were to attack the targetted province. While the caster dreams true, it isn't always possible to move everyone there for the battle, and the dream Lasts too long for the caster to act on the information in time for the dream to become reality.

Mechanics: The caster casts the spell, and targets a province. The next turn, the player gets a message: a battle simulation, showing what would have happened had everyone in the province moved to the targeted province for a battle (or a message to the effect that there weren't any troops or province defense outside of any castles, if that was the case) - but it doesn't move anyone, and doesn't inflict any actual casulties or injuries - it was just a dream. Perhaps the targetted player recieves a message that the troops in that province all recieved distrubing dreams, but gets no details. An extremely good spell for scouting - although limited, as it won't give you any info on what's inside of a castle (you'd end the turn seiging the castle, if you won, not fighting the defenders).

[Endoperez]

I think 'dreams' don't need Astral component. After all, neither Voice of Tiamat or the Blood global causing demons to harass enemy commanders in their dreams need it.

BTW, I really like the Dream of Turmoil of Jack Simth (on purpose?). But giving out information about the excat strategies and troop composition of target army is too much... Numbers should be enough. Even suicide scouts won't see the spells enemy mages have been scripted to cast.

[Vicious Love]

While that really is a great idea for a spell, it
A) Doesn't really sound like a water spell, and
B) Has already been suggested a while back. The devs felt it would slow down the game/be tricky to implement/be overpowered. Or at least one of the above three, I don't recall which.

Update: Oh, and while I may have overused astral in my own suggestions, when the less tangible aspects of water woulda sufficed, I'm actually inclined to agree with Simth on the astral component in his spell.
Foretelling the future is strictly and astral sorta thing, y'see.

Updated update: Duuuude. Making the Thing That Is Not your prophet would be, like, the coolest thing ever.

[ June 20, 2004, 22:18: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

[djtool]

didn't have the time to read the whole thread so if I repeat plz don't flame me.

I'd like to see some ice evocation spells to give water mages some punch.

how about a spell that ices over the battlefield slowing movement with a possible one turn stun for walkers (to simulate falling)

a spell to increase population ( 'well of life'?)

a spell to increase defense of one/some/all units on the battlefield ('supple'?)

A spell that has a percentage chance of keeping a army from moving out of a territory for a turn ('deluge'?)

<shrug>

[Vicious Love]

Originally posted by djtool:
I'd like to see some ice evocation spells to give water mages some punch.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On phone as I type this, so being brief and ill-researched. Ice strike, falling frost, frozen heart, and more.
Water was never meant to be as useful as fire and air on a battlefield, these seem like more than enough.

a spell to increase population ( 'well of life'?)

Sounds like nature.

A spell that has a percentage chance of keeping a army from moving out of a territory for a turn ('deluge'?)
<shrug>

Me LIKE. Useful AND original.

Edit: Typo.

[ June 21, 2004, 23:46: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by djtool:
how about a spell that ices over the battlefield slowing movement with a possible one turn stun for walkers (to simulate falling)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or even something as simple as a Mud or Quicksand spell, that creates patches of mud/quicksand that slow or stop units.

[djtool]

A spell that changes x number of units into beings of water for the duration of the battle. The effect being to either inc def/greatly inc def, dec prot/or a body ethereal effect

geyser. Yeah i know there's a geyser spell but i'd like to see the water come up under the unit(s) and toss them somewhere.

summon yeti...self explanatory

[Jack Simth]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
While that really is a great idea for a spell, it
A) Doesn't really sound like a water spell, and
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure it is - see below Originally posted by Vicious Love:
B) Has already been suggested a while back. The devs felt it would slow down the game/be tricky to implement/be overpowered. Or at least one of the above three, I don't recall which.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sort of - the suggestion I recall them saying they didn't find workable was a double-run scenario - you cast the spell, give your orders, send in your turn, get the turn results back, and then change your orders for the turn, send them in AGAIN and have the turn processed and finalized - and THEN distribute it to the players who didn't cast the spell that turn - while that could, in theory, be done, it would be rediculously complex to implement and combersome to use. My suggestion could be a fairly small hack - duplicate the units/commanders involved into a temporary array, run the battle with those temporary units/commanders, throw away the temporary array (well, after packaging it up as a battle scenerio to send to the player), and report the results to the casting player.

It wouldn't be too overpowered, as any opposing commander inside of a castle is immune to being scried on in such a fashion, and the information can't be acted on immediately - sure, you can find out where the army was, and so get an idea where the army could be, but who is to say if the army has moved or not since then? Especially if you add a "Your military force in (insert province name here) has had very disturbing dreams - all on the same night." to the owner of the targetted province. Originally posted by Vicious Love:

Update: Oh, and while I may have overused astral in my own suggestions, when the less tangible aspects of water woulda sufficed, I'm actually inclined to agree with Simth on the astral component in his spell.
Foretelling the future is strictly and astral sorta thing, y'see.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Time is a river - why else would the time-warping spells (execept burden of time, which is D5) be in water? Shucks, it's even primarily an Eastern mysticism concept, which you seem to be fond of for this path. There's also the old tea-leaf forune telling which is often considered water-based in fiction (it's usually the water in the tea leaves at the bottom of the cup that's important, not the tea leaves themselves).

Originally posted by Endoperez:
[QB]
BTW, I really like the Dream of Turmoil of Jack Simth (on purpose?)[QB]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you are referring to m after i, yes. Originally posted by Endoperez:
[QB]
. But giving out information about the excat strategies and troop composition of target army is too much... Numbers should be enough. Even suicide scouts won't see the spells enemy mages have been scripted to cast.[QB]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Quite possibly.