all games everywhere are down

[archaeolept]

looks like there's some authentication problem w/ the machines needing to "phone home" in order to verify the legitimacy of their keys. perhaps the relevant illwinter server is down?

or perhaps there's a more serious bug?

started at about 2:30 EST

so far, no one can connect (not even asking for a port) to mosehansen games, kludgemush games, and zeikko's own hosted game. Anyone else have any info?

[ April 18, 2004, 18:42: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Zeikko]

There's something happening. When you try to connect to a network game, type ip/hostname nothing happens. The stars keep passing by but no port is asked.

This came up maybe 10 minutes ago, I can't even join on local network game.

I think this is occurs because of the phone home feature.

[Ragnarok-X]

Originally posted by Zeikko:
I think this is occurs because of the phone home feature. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">uh, "feature" ?

[Zeikko]

Yea, it's feature, but something has gone wrong now.

[Norfleet]

Controlled experiments strongly suggest that the Illwinter Spyware Server is partially borked: As a result, Dom2 connects, tries to get a meaningful response out of it, but nothing happens, so Dom2 hangs.

[Kristoffer O]

It is working again.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
the Illwinter Spyware Server<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes...a very small game developer, taking a *very* small step to protect themselves, their livelihood, and their increasingly popular intellectual property from piracy, is "spyware". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Give me - and Illwinter - a break.

[archaeolept]

ehh, I think calling it "spyware" is stupid.

however, if it interferes w/ the ability to play games, then that's a real issue.

[Gandalf Parker]

not a major problem if the server doesnt go down again. maybe there will be a check added to the next patch to catch down-server

[JaydedOne]

Originally posted by fahdiz:

Give me - and Illwinter - a break. [/QB]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My thoughts exactly. Personally I was impressed that the issue was resolved in an hour's time at what must've been an inconvenient hour Illwinter-time.

That said, as Arch points out, it becomes an issue if the problem continues to repeat itself. However, IW's track record leads me to give them the benny of the doubt. Somehow I think they'll make sure it's not a recurring issue.

[Yossar]

So if something were to happen in the near or distant future and the server were to go down permanently, we'd be unable to play the game multiplayer? I hope it would be fairly easy for someone to come up with a hack should that occur.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Yossar:
So if something were to happen in the near or distant future and the server were to go down permanently, we'd be unable to play the game multiplayer? I hope it would be fairly easy for someone to come up with a hack should that occur. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. Anyone can put up a server. The worst that can happen would be that if they had no backups that the server would have to be started without a CD-key file. All that would mean is that the pirates would be able to play again.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Yossar:
So if something were to happen in the near or distant future and the server were to go down permanently, we'd be unable to play the game multiplayer? I hope it would be fairly easy for someone to come up with a hack should that occur. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. Anyone can put up a server. The worst that can happen would be that if they had no backups that the server would have to be started without a CD-key file. All that would mean is that the pirates would be able to play again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Eh - if they have anything tricky in the bit of code that the callback routines talk to, it'd take a good bit of programming to come up with a hack that'd allow a new server.

For instance - a robust validation mechanism might use PK crypto. It's not just a matter of putting up a server that listens on the appropriate port.

Of course, robust crypto would be using "Brilliant Pebbles" to crack walnuts, for Dom2 validation. As is, it's not too hard to get around - but you shouldn't have to reconfigure your routing tables or reconfigure your firewalls in order to play the game.

Right now, your average bear is SOL when this happens.

[Gandalf Parker]

I didnt mean anyone ELSE putting up a server. For one thing if you could figure out how to get the game to "dial home" to a different server then you could figure out how to get it to not dial home at all. Hmmmm.... actually, come to think of it.. no never mind.

What I meant was that no matter what happens to the server it wouldnt be much for Illwinter or Shrapnel to put up another. Its not a big expense for a server like that. And even if the key file was lost it would just start over building a new one.

[Zapmeister]

Personally I was impressed that the issue was resolved in an hour's time at what must've been an inconvenient hour Illwinter-time.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Certainly. However, the fact that it happened at all must have been a major embarrassment. Checking that a connection has succeeded and taking appropriate action (allowing access, in this case) if it hasn't, is fundamental functionality in any application that does network communications.

EDIT: Hmmm, simply allowing access may be too exploitable.

[ April 19, 2004, 03:12: Message edited by: Zapmeister ]

[Member 4148]

so what happens to the game each of the following happen:
you go out of buisness?
someone else ends up with the IP address / domain name the program specifies?
10 years from now a group gets nostalgic and wants to run a multiplayer game on their ethernet?
an outside net connection is unavailable/inadviseable for a Groups network?

i guess i can see both sides - you have a popular game and want to slow pirates to get money that is rightfully yours - consumers want to play the game that they bought - a required call home cd check slows pirates but stops legit use in some circumstances
the question is: which takes priority?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Member 4148:
i guess i can see both sides - you have a popular game and want to slow pirates to get money that is rightfully yours - consumers want to play the game that they bought - a required call home cd check slows pirates but stops legit use in some circumstances the question is: which takes priority? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True enough. But then thats true of any type of protection. This is actually one of the least bothersome that they could have chosen.

But before someone inevitably says something about how such things dont stop pirating, we should point out that protections like this are 95% about stopping "casual copying" by those legit customers.

They could have gone with a 5 deep named domain site such as 1.2.3.illwinter.com than an IP with an ISP like its doing now. Of course that makes it bypassable by anyone who knows what the host file on their machine is for but it would take care of your "sometime in the future" scenario. Everything has its pros and cons.

Maybe if sales go well they can go with a multihomed server, and alternating pointers between an illwinter server and a shrapnel server.

[Zapmeister]

Maybe if sales go well they can go with a multihomed server, and alternating pointers between an illwinter server and a shrapnel server.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If 90% (just to pluck a figure out of the air) of the usage of the product critically depends on service provided by the vendor, then I think this is the least you can do. Before the sales figures come in.

[PhilD]

Does the "phone home" check mean a network game on a LAN that is otherwise unconnected to the Internet is not possible? That, if true, would be something I have a problem with.

Right now, I have an Internet connexion, and no local opponent, so only one CD key. But both might change, and on general principles, it would be a very bad practice.

I don't have a problem with the game checking the CD keys Online if the players are Online. But hanging the game if they aren't is a whole different matter...

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by PhilD:
Does the "phone home" check mean a network game on a LAN that is otherwise unconnected to the Internet is not possible? That, if true, would be something I have a problem with.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No they already said that it wont be affected by lack of phoning home.

Apparently the problem was caused by the lack of a check routine. Just guessing (from experience in such areas) Id say that it probably handles not being able to connect to the check-server at all, but didnt have a routine for when the server is there but the check program isnt running on that port. The automatic time-outs of such servers is longer than most Users are willing to wait and are very hard to set differently.

This routine will probably be tweaked in patches the same as everything else in the game. Lets not get so impatient that we force them to go buy one of the ready-made protection schemes. Im sure we would be much more unhappy with that.

[ April 19, 2004, 13:25: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[BugRoger]

My game server is running behind a firewall that blocks all outgoing ports except for the port the server listens on. I didn't notice any problems with the phone home "feature" yet.

So if Illwinters CD-check server ever shuts down it might just be enough to block that port/server.