OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.

[Cheezeninja]

Having never been made aware of Dom1, i would have to say that Dominions 2 is the first game i've ever played thats managed to insert itself into the nostalgic, megalomaniac, obsessive niche that MoM occupied for many years of my life. Age of Wonders tried but it was far to much a mainstream sell-out for money, and far too little the underground game that someone poured there heart, soul, and uncountable man-hours into. (thank you, thank you, thank you, dominion makers) I started playing MoM (Master of Magic for any who are wondering) when it was already old and i was still in junior high (i.e. 10 years ago'ish) and from that time up until i read a review in PC gamer (how i found out about Dom2) and bought Dom2 it proudly occupied the "Greatest game EVER" slot in my mind. It has now been supplanted by Dominions 2, but i figured i would make a post about it because there seem to be a few people here who also played it.

my favorite thing to do in MoM, hands down:
max out fire magic, cast armaggeddon, convert the whole world to a volcanic waste that gives me awesome magical power, nuke the AI back into the stone age and lord it over the world. > http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

my favorite tactics:
max out death magic, start with wraith, cast wraith as soon as possible, conquer independants while raising massive undead armies for yourself.

max out life magic, start with the avatar hero summon, cast it, buff him, conquer all. The original SC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

two words, undead trolls.

ahhhh memories... well i guess thats it, i understand this is a dom2 forum and not a MoM forum, call this my eulogy for MoM as it permanently gets replaced by Dom2 on my desktop.
*drumroll* *21 gun salute* *lonely bugle plays taps*
(oh.. and btw i've got an original MoM box, manual and game i obtained on ebay, so neener.)

[ June 15, 2004, 17:29: Message edited by: Zen ]

[HotNifeThruButr]

Were you playing Age of Wonders 2? That was awful, I liked the first one better.

Anyways, my favorite thing about MoM was getting my starter spearmen/swordsmen stack and to a high level and seeing them take out 4x their number in halberdiers!

[Gandalf Parker]

I still have MoM on my WinXP machine. Its been loaded thru many MANY OS changes. Anytime I see anyone mention MoM or Stars! (also still alive on my machine) I tell them they should try the Dom2 demo.

By the way, on sourceforge.net I see at least 7 projects to recreate MoM, and about that many for Stars also. (no dominions clones yet)

[Jack Simth]

It's hard to get, but there is a technique which, once successfully implemented, is completely unbeatable (and I'm NOT talking the Spell of Mastery) - You need two advantages (I may have the names wrong): Artificer and Runemaster, and one spell: Time Stop (sorcery). Runemaster reduces the cost of any arcane spell by 25%, Artificer reduces the cost of artifact forging (an arcane spell...) by 50% - with the net effect being that you can forge artifacts for 1/4 normal cost. The fun part? Recycling an artifact returns 1/2 the normal forge cost - a net gain of 2x your investment. If you can then get your effective casting skill over the maintanence cost of the Time Stop spell (200, as I recall - and each djinn in your capital boosts it by 20 - you can have 9, so you just need 21+ skill from yourself - not an issue), you cast TS, forge/recycle to get the maintenence for the TS and a backlog for summoning (and you don't have to maintain your summons during a TS - all you have to come up with is the 200 per extra turn for the TS), and conquer everyone with summons. Your opponents cannot build units, cannot cast non-combat spells, do not have any income (limiting combat spells), and YOU can keep it up indefinately. Every enemy unit you eliminate stays gone until the TS ends (barring trollish immortality - them you have to wipe out all at once), and you never need to let it end (except for the save bug - a TS doesn't work after a save/load cycle).

[Pirateiam]

Yep I also palyed MOM. Still have the graphic depiction of the wizard on top of his spire casting the spell of Mastery for the ending burned in my memory... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ohh those fond memories.

[Kel]

Sorry but MoM is still my favorite SP game of all time. Dom2 just became my favorite MP game (which is what it aimed to do, so all is good).

The dungeon/site exploration in MoM truly appealed to the gambling addict in me and I liked controlling my troops in combat. I hope they *do* recreate it with some enhancements. I haven't really liked any of the similar games half as much, mostly because they all seem to have lost MoM's depth. Except Dom2, which has plenty of depth, but I so miss my random magic site loot "You have found a sword of chaos".

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't change it, such random power spikes might not be good for MP balance, it's just fun, to me, in SP =)

- Kel

[Cheezeninja]

I happen to like the defeats that require vengeance almost as much as the victorys though. When im in a commanding position against the AI (I cut humans alot less slack) in any game I tend to ease off until they build up enough power to hand me at least a small defeat for which vengeance is required. I love finding way's to be in all-powerful positions in games but i also love the defeats along the way that get you there.

Oh and if your looking for an awesome space conquering game, I HIGHLY reccommend Galactic Civilizations, its the game Master of Orion 3 wasn't. You can find it at http://www.galciv.com
the AI in that game is ferocious, and it has a steep learning curve which is something you people seem to like in a game.

[ April 25, 2004, 04:09: Message edited by: Cheezeninja ]

[Minrhael]

Just had to add that I had kept an ancient computer around just for playing MoM, and I just gave it away Last week after deciding Dom2 was finally a sufficient replacement. Nice to have a little more room on the desk now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Cohen]

Never played MoM, but a lot AoW, one and less the second episode.

Well I enjoyed it a lot, far more than Heroes of Might and Magic (HoMM) because the gameplay is based on armies ... and sadly on SC Ruler ...

I hate SC ... armies does the fight, not single super beasts ... and this is a problem of Dom2 too.

[WraithLord]

For me MOM is still the #1 SP game.
Dominions II is a great great game, just that in SP it tends to bog down to a very slow pace in the end game.
BTW to those of you who loved MOM I recommend to check leylines

[ June 06, 2004, 18:46: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Blofeld]

One of the coolest aspects of MoM was its heroic fantasy feel. Experienced heroes with some magic stuff and spells became really uber, able to conquer cities on their own.
Spell Chaos Channels was really cool, too. nothing beats mutated fire-breathing halflings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Sadly, strategic AI sucked big time.

[rabelais]

My favorite MoM munchkinism was to max sorcery, and then get yet MORE sorcery, plus the relevant skills (concentrator? I forget, been MANY years)in the node battles.

Eventually you could cast sorcery spells at 0% cost. Free that is.

A storm drake every turn in combat... plus god knows what other abuses...forever!!!!

It was silly, but quite a powertrip...

Dom2 is better than MoM, no question.

The possibility of bug fixes alone puts it in a whole different Category. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Blessed are the developers, for they keep all of us happily nonproductive.

Plus if they ever need anything (money, shrines etc.), they have a whole string (forum?) of addicts to hit up. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif


Rabe the Strategy Sycophant

[Anglachel]

Is it possible to get a Version of Master of Magic that works for windows xp? I'll check out that site Gandalf mentions.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Halfling Slingers of doom.

They owned nearly every standard unit in the game due to their luck. I love them :-)

s it possible to get a Version of Master of Magic that works for windows xp? I'll check out that site Gandalf mentions.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If that is what you whish, here you go: Dosbox (http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/news.php?show_news=1)

Emulates a complete computer that is capable of running most of the older games... I'm using it for Mom, Dungeon MAster and Star Control, also the Last one got some graphical errors

[ April 25, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

[Cheezeninja]

Hafling slingers of Doom were awesome! Haflings were great for a giant happy food producing population, but you needed another race for wizards.

[ April 25, 2004, 19:29: Message edited by: Cheezeninja ]

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:

If that is what you whish, here you go: Dosbox (http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/news.php?show_news=1)

Emulates a complete computer that is capable of running most of the older games... I'm using it for Mom, Dungeon MAster and Star Control, also the Last one got some graphical errors <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I posted the same at ADOM newsgroup a while ago, but someone there told me that MoM works too slow with DosBox. He gave link to an AbandonLoader in return, and it runs both MoM and Betrayal at Krondor. It seems the latter one is harder to get to work...
AbandonLoader (http://www.angelfire.com/realm/zeroone/) can be downloaded from that page, but I haven't tested it myself...

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by rabelais:
My favorite MoM munchkinism was to max sorcery, and then get yet MORE sorcery, plus the relevant skills (concentrator? I forget, been MANY years)in the node battles.

Eventually you could cast sorcery spells at 0% cost. Free that is.

A storm drake every turn in combat... plus god knows what other abuses...forever!!!!<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You couldn't get Sky Drakes in combat, since they were a ritual summons, but you COULD get an INFINITE number of sky drakes, attack anything within range, and then immediately disband them to avoid paying upkeep. Nothing could survive.

You COULD, however, get an infinite quantity of battlefield summons, like air elementals and phantasmals.

And let's not forget invisible flying warships. The AI totally did not know how to cope with that, he'd just sit there as rocks fell from the sky and slaughtered his men.

[Scott Hebert]

Ah, MoM.

My favorite strategies were, in no particular order:

1. Myrran Halflings. Halflings with Adamantium kill everything dead. Missile immunity does not help you.

2. Wraith rush.

3. Torin rush.

[Pocus]

I miss the exploration aspect that was present in MoM (discovering new uncharted lands, exploring the small dungeons giving goodies for a tough fight).

I liked also the idea of the lair which released from time to time a party of neutral rampaging units.

[Anglachel]

Originally posted by Endoperez:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:

If that is what you whish, here you go: Dosbox (http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/news.php?show_news=1)

Emulates a complete computer that is capable of running most of the older games... I'm using it for Mom, Dungeon MAster and Star Control, also the Last one got some graphical errors <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I posted the same at ADOM newsgroup a while ago, but someone there told me that MoM works too slow with DosBox. He gave link to an AbandonLoader in return, and it runs both MoM and Betrayal at Krondor. It seems the latter one is harder to get to work...
AbandonLoader (http://www.angelfire.com/realm/zeroone/) can be downloaded from that page, but I haven't tested it myself... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are right about Dosbox being slow running Master of Magic but when I try to run MOM on AbandonLoader it gives me that "You must have 2700k of expanded memory" message without running the game at all. Anyone familiar with this that can help me out? Thanks for answering.

Edit: Ok, figured it out by reading the newbie guide to dosbox more closely. Running smoothly now.

[ April 25, 2004, 23:19: Message edited by: Anglachel ]

[PrinzMegaherz]

I posted the same at ADOM newsgroup a while ago, but someone there told me that MoM works too slow with DosBox. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont have any problems with MoM. Just keep adding cycles (STR + F12 if memory serves me right) until its fine.

One thing I did not like about MoM was the fact that Item creation took so very very long. Hurray for Dominions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
One thing I did not like about MoM was the fact that Item creation took so very very long. Hurray for Dominions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Item Creation took so very very long only if you were a lousy wizard making an obscenely powerful item. Of course, you could also make very nice, obscenely broken items. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Kel]

I didn't even like making them at all when I could find such nifty items in lairs and nodes !

- Kel

[FadingSuns]

MoM alone caused me to upgrade my computer. The animation for the nodes brought my 486 to a stuttering standstill. I loved the game enough to sink cash into a new system just to get that one part to run smoothly.
Dom2 might do the same for me now. I can run the battles smoothly with the 'world' hidden, but where's the fun with that? Lush battle graphics deserve to be seen!
MoM is still going to be #1 for me, at least until I start being able to stomp some races in Dom2. Gotta love the Myrror world!

[Anglachel]

Originally posted by FadingSuns:
MoM alone caused me to upgrade my computer. The animation for the nodes brought my 486 to a stuttering standstill. I loved the game enough to sink cash into a new system just to get that one part to run smoothly.
Dom2 might do the same for me now. I can run the battles smoothly with the 'world' hidden, but where's the fun with that? Lush battle graphics deserve to be seen!
MoM is still going to be #1 for me, at least until I start being able to stomp some races in Dom2. Gotta love the Myrror world! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh Wow! Your name just reminded me of a game that I really liked that I would love to find a copy of if there is one around. Empire of the Fading Sun. Flawed as it was, I loved that game and its flavor.

[PDF]

Originally posted by Anglachel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by FadingSuns:
MoM alone caused me to upgrade my computer. The animation for the nodes brought my 486 to a stuttering standstill. I loved the game enough to sink cash into a new system just to get that one part to run smoothly.
Dom2 might do the same for me now. I can run the battles smoothly with the 'world' hidden, but where's the fun with that? Lush battle graphics deserve to be seen!
MoM is still going to be #1 for me, at least until I start being able to stomp some races in Dom2. Gotta love the Myrror world! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh Wow! Your name just reminded me of a game that I really liked that I would love to find a copy of if there is one around. Empire of the Fading Sun. Flawed as it was, I loved that game and its flavor. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The mods -much better than the original- are also still floating around. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I still have everything installed, but have difficulty playing MoM and EoFS with my new Athlon2400xp rig - still in W98SE but my old mem settings with emm386 don't work anymore ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[ June 07, 2004, 14:53: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[PrinzMegaherz]

I do not like Emporer of the Fading sun. Covering whole planetary surfaces with different factory sites is annoying and in addition a logistical nightmare. The AI is much to hard and builds insane amounts of everything even on the easiest difficulty level.

By the time I got my first dreadnought the AI had several of them orbiting nearly every planet.

Well, maybe its just me, but this game is far too much work to be any fun

[Stormbinder]

MoM was great. Overall IMHO MoM model is better for SP (I love having control over my troops in battle), Dom2 model is better for MP.

It was about 10 years since I've played MoM for the Last time, and I don't have the copy anymore but I still remeber that game very kindly. And I still remeber the introduction:

"OLDMAN!!! YOU SEEK THE SPELL OF MASTERY!"

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif


Originally posted by izaqyos:
For me MOM is still the #1 SP game.
Dominions II is a great great game, just that in SP it tends to bog down to a very slow pace in the end game.
BTW to those of you who loved MOM I recommend to check leylines <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What are these leylines? I think I've heard that name before...

[ June 06, 2004, 21:07: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Karacan]

EoFS works fine for my AthlonXP on WinXP, and I still pbem it, for which it's perfect. I don't think there were many broken things with it... I absolutely loved the diplomacy model. It felt as if it really worked, even with the AI.

And, really, it's one of the perfect pbem games, despite non-simultaneous turns, because of the incredible intricate political complexities involved. Reminded me very much of Junta the boardgame, where the eternal issue was to find the one Minister of the Inerior among the players you could trust...

[spirokeat]

MoM was definately an Iconic game. I got it when it first came out and along with MOO and Chaos Overlords (if anyone recalls that) I thought they were the best turn based strats of their era's I spent literally years playing them along various themes.

My fave MoM thing at the start was racing to curse my starter troops with lycanthropy, I had these little visions of these poor spearmen in the employ of Azac the Dead but having long suffering wives who had to put up with their monthly rampages around the local area exploring, then one day they came home but were werewolves.

And I would spend literally hours doing the reload thing to ensure I got the hero I wanted on the summons. I forget what he was called as I always changed his name but he was this stealthy assassin type and I always summoned him an army of night stalkers to terrorise the country with.

I missed DoM 1, but nuff respect to the designers, DOM 2 has lived up to MoM in every way that a host of games have failed in. I only regret that you cant control battlefield combat. Though I can imagine the nightmares of coding that a good AI take.

I raise my glass to MoM.

Spirokeat

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by spirokeat:
I missed DoM 1, but nuff respect to the designers, DOM 2 has lived up to MoM in every way that a host of games have failed in. I only regret that you cant control battlefield combat. Though I can imagine the nightmares of coding that a good AI take.

I raise my glass to MoM.

Spirokeat <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cheers.

Of course I can't speak for the developers but IMHO the main problem with full control over the battlefiled in Dom2 would not be the difficulty of coding tactical AI, but that there is no way how to make such model work in MP Dom2 game. With gameturns by the end of the game taking so long as it is, it would be impossible to implement direct human control over the battles, a la AoW2 or MoM, in typical MP Dom2 game.

I would love to have such option in the SP games though. Perhaps in Dom3?... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Saarud]

Wow you guys are talking about many of my absolute favorite games since the early 90´s.

Dom2 is the best game... PERIOD.

Mom I haven't actually played in a decade or so because my disc mysteriously disappeared. But beside the exploring I remember all the different races and how they differed from eachother they were as being the most interested part of the game for me.

EFS was great using loads of house rules not to exploit any of the many bugs. But I have to agree that it is one of the best PBeM games that I have ever played. If the turns would have been simoultaneus somehow it would probably be the best.

Chaos Overlords is still on my top 5 list of favorite games. This is another excellent MP game and I've had so much fun playing this against my friends. Usually we could finish a game in one session though by the end we were all rather drunk.

Another great game not mentioned yet is Sword of Aragon. This game has it all, well almost the replaybility is not the best since the story is the same every time. Also SoA is only SP no MP. But considering the age of the game I still value this game amongst the best.

[Sheap]

Ahh Emperor of the Fading Suns. What a great game - especially using the Nova mod which I do not any longer recall the URL for.

The only problem with EFS - and it is a debilitating one - is the insane level of micromanagement required. To play it competitively was almost like a full time job.

Also played Stars@!# and MoM - MoM had too many abuses and Stars!@# was also very high on the micromanagement. DOM2 seems to avoid the MM trap which will earn it a long life on my system I think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[PDF]

Well, in fact I didn't even try, but EFS works like a charm indeed on my rig:) , I confused the tech problems with MOO I suppose http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

All the great mods are still around and Hyperion even had a new release in April ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thinking about it there is much things in common between EFS and Dom : a great number and variety of units, all very detailed, with characteristics having a big impact on the unit performances, rich strategic choices (tech in EFS vs magic iN Dom), detailed combat system, great MP, modding ability...
But yes EFS is too much micromanagement heavy, where Dom2 is just on the good side of the borderline http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Anglachel]

Originally posted by PDF:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Anglachel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by FadingSuns:
MoM alone caused me to upgrade my computer. The animation for the nodes brought my 486 to a stuttering standstill. I loved the game enough to sink cash into a new system just to get that one part to run smoothly.
Dom2 might do the same for me now. I can run the battles smoothly with the 'world' hidden, but where's the fun with that? Lush battle graphics deserve to be seen!
MoM is still going to be #1 for me, at least until I start being able to stomp some races in Dom2. Gotta love the Myrror world! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh Wow! Your name just reminded me of a game that I really liked that I would love to find a copy of if there is one around. Empire of the Fading Sun. Flawed as it was, I loved that game and its flavor. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The mods -much better than the original- are also still floating around. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I still have everything installed, but have difficulty playing MoM and EoFS with my new Athlon2400xp rig - still in W98SE but my old mem settings with emm386 don't work anymore ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the heads up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ June 07, 2004, 14:53: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[littlemute]

Originally posted by Saarud:

Chaos Overlords is still on my top 5 list of favorite games. This is another excellent MP game and I've had so much fun playing this against my friends. Usually we could finish a game in one session though by the end we were all rather drunk.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wait a sec...I played this game eons ago and it was totally panned by reviewers, isn't that the one with the competing gangs in a city? I'm curious what's good about it?

EFS was fun but got SO BOGGED DOWN with the hex/counter style and the building. They should have used provinces like Genghis Khan 2 (or of course Dom2). Also the AI didn't protect it's nobles/voting staffs, so you could drop in and take their stuff, then you make yourself the commander of the imperial fleet and take down your rivals.

I have to say I liked Master of Orion better than Master of Magic.

[Saarud]

Originally posted by littlemute:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Saarud:

Chaos Overlords is still on my top 5 list of favorite games. This is another excellent MP game and I've had so much fun playing this against my friends. Usually we could finish a game in one session though by the end we were all rather drunk.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wait a sec...I played this game eons ago and it was totally panned by reviewers, isn't that the one with the competing gangs in a city? I'm curious what's good about it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Never trust reviewers. I love Chaos Overlords just because the simplicity of the game mechanics yet you need to employ a skillfull strategy to win the game. AI is hard and does not cheat but it is playing MP this game really shines. My gaming group changed from Risk (The Boardgame) to Chaos Overlords once we understood how good it was playing MP.

The game is really more an empire building game than a gangster game. I think this might be one reason that reviwers panned it, they were expecting a game were you were dealing drugs and robbing banks and so on, instead they got a simple Empire building game with gangs as units.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Like dominions, CO had some very detailed units with their own background.

There was a gang called "Low Life Scum". Its picture was that of two heads sticking out of a pool of bile, one of them vomiting. Very disgusting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[sachmo]

MOM:

Get Nature, and then Cracks.

Build a flying unit, and attack any number of land based creatures. Cast Cracks until land based units are dead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[FadingSuns]

EotFS and MoM improved remarkibly when patched. They were good on their own, but a few patches really expanded their scope. Emperor was 100% less buggy and MoM was like a completely different game. Shows that when designers stick with their product the fans will stick with the company. Gotta love anything distributed by Shrapnel.
Voting in Emperor was one of the most ingenious twists I've seen in a game. Being forced to reward your enemies was brilliant. Stealing votes was fun too! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
When I found that "Galactic Civilizations" had a voting model I bought the game. Wished I'd saved my money. Here is an example of reviewers loving an Empire building game with slick graphics... but nothing 'under the hood'. Lord knows I tried to love it, but it just didn't happen. Dom2 hooked me right away, spelling errors and all.

[Tuskerlove]

Does anyone know how I can get Windows XP Professional to play MoM? I have a brand new MoM disc sitting in my office a thome but I can't load it on XP. I was was actually going to buy a Windows 98 computer so I could play it again.

Sorry if this is a ignorant question ~ I tried playing the game in an emulation mode but it still crashed. Any advice would be appeciated.

I've had this problem on some of my other software as well.

Try using DosBox. Some people can get XP to work for them on XP by just using the memory functions of XP for individual exes, but for myself, Dosbox is the only thing that has worked.

You can find it here

http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/news.php?show_news=1

There is a specific help area on the forums of Dosbox for MoM. It also tells you to probably use the Speed up Function in Dosbox if MoM is crawling for you.

Edit: Dosbox will also run most sound cards. So you get the old school music running in the background. A must for old fans. Also there was, at one time, a hex-balance for some things, (including settlers having water movement) to counter some of the AI stupidity.

[ June 08, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Scott Hebert]

Well, I don't know about any problems you might be having, Zen, but I'm able to run MoM on my XP Professional machine just fine. Tuskerlove, what I did was edit the properties of the magic.exe file. I run it in Win95 compatibility mode, with all memory settings set to Auto, and the HMA box under Extended Memory checked. This gets it to run, for me. Now, I don't know how to set the sound options to get it to recognize my sound card, but that's secondary.

Hope this helps. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scott

[spirokeat]

In relation to Chaos Overlords.

To be honest, I trust reviewers about as much as I trust a crack addict with my Tele. CO was a fantastic game, amazingly bug free, easy to play and get into and SHONE in MP.

As a theme style player (sandboxer?) I loved the detail on the gangs and how you had to set them up, street level gangs out causing chaos to extort you cash and your hitech merc gangs and Monk orders patrolling your borders taking out rivals and expanding terrirtory.

It was very stylish, equiping your Metal Moshers gang with shades and ghetto bLasters to cause hassle and generate cash. My fave, the Neck Kickers a melee gang that specialised in kicking people in the neck !!

Your right though, it was less about robbery etc than a conceptual representation of it via chaos and control. The rest was empire and research to keep your gangs equiped and in the game.

The one innovative thing was you could create MP games where everyone was annoymous in terms of the real player...I dont recall the exact mechanics of it, but you could play so only the server sys knew who the other players were RL. One classic game myself and housemate whos puter was next to mine, posed as 2 of the other 6 friends in the game, no one knew if it was the real people playing themselves as a ruse or one of the others imitating and which ones anyway ! was a hoot !.

Still, back to MoM, Someone mentioned the intro....how classic was that....Its still a bit of a chant amongst my friends, 'OLD MAN !!!!!! YOU SEEK !!! Etc. hehe.

Who liked the diplomacy in Moo ? it was kinda good and kinda bad at the same time at least you could attempt to divert a nation by making offerings etc which was good and you could also manipulate the higher tech races into trading **** with you.

One thing with DOM is that once you attack be it by accident as you both go for an Inde, you are at war and they single mindedly go for you.

Spiro.

[Tuskerlove]

Thanks guys - I can't wait to play it again its been too long! Unfortunately, it is going to wait a couple more days though as I'm addicted to the game I'm playing. I did d/l DosBox and I'll try it this weekend ~ thank again!

Masters of Orion II was awesome an awesome game btw!

[E. Albright]

[Edit: EFS discussion]
Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
[...] The AI is much to hard and builds insane amounts of everything even on the easiest difficulty level.

By the time I got my first dreadnought the AI had several of them orbiting nearly every planet. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bah. Torpedo bombers. Dreads are naught but high-priced artillery...

(Oh, and like Dom, difficulty affects a player's initial setup, not how the AI plays.)

[ June 10, 2004, 19:59: Message edited by: E. Albright ]

[Aetius]

Wow! My favorite games of all time in one thread, Dom II, MoM, and EFS. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Lunaticus]

Does anyone have an url for the patches for EFS?
Thanks in advance.
Lunaticus

[Gandalf Parker]

It would be best if someone uses the "private message" button, or emails you a link. If its a patch site it might be OK but a link where you can get the game is frowned on here. (it is a forum owned by a game company after all) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 11, 2004, 15:46: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Anglachel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by PDF:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Anglachel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by FadingSuns:
MoM alone caused me to upgrade my computer. The animation for the nodes brought my 486 to a stuttering standstill. I loved the game enough to sink cash into a new system just to get that one part to run smoothly.
Dom2 might do the same for me now. I can run the battles smoothly with the 'world' hidden, but where's the fun with that? Lush battle graphics deserve to be seen!
MoM is still going to be #1 for me, at least until I start being able to stomp some races in Dom2. Gotta love the Myrror world! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh Wow! Your name just reminded me of a game that I really liked that I would love to find a copy of if there is one around. Empire of the Fading Sun. Flawed as it was, I loved that game and its flavor. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The mods -much better than the original- are also still floating around. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I still have everything installed, but have difficulty playing MoM and EoFS with my new Athlon2400xp rig - still in W98SE but my old mem settings with emm386 don't work anymore ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for the heads up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have a Anthlon XP system running MOM using Abandon loader. To get around the problem with expanded memory just open up your config.sys with notepad and remove the NOEMS in the Device code line. Should work fine. If you are confused I can e-mail you the edited config.sys file. Good luck.

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
It would be best if someone uses the "private message" button, or emails you a link. If its a patch site it might be OK but a link where you can get the game is frowned on here. (it is a forum owned by a game company after all) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There has been a long debate over the issue of abandonware. (I myself actually have an old copy I purchased of MOM long ago) I make a living programming (Indusrial Automation Ladder logic PLC's) so I understand the programmers side but when a software program is no longer sold or maintained by the intellectual property owner should it be abandoned to uselesness just to preserve that property?

Let me put to you in terms how my industry deals with it. Lets say I have written a ladder logic program to operate a waste water treatment plant.
I get paid for the program and work involved. While they own the software now, they can not copy my ladder logic (ladder logic is the code format) and use it in another PLC (programmable logic controller) without my consent. Now lets go 6 years into the future. The warranty has run out, I have moved on to another job and lets say they need to upgrade there plant. Should they be allowed to make changes to my code or even use it with slight changes in a new PLC? Now personally I do not have a problem with it unnless they are somehow making money directly from my code (reselling). Recently though I have run into company's that are trying to protect this code in industrial automation much like current game and applications on PCs. Customers go bannanas though since you are hindering any future upgrades etc... It is definately an interesting debate and I think it is far from being resolved.

As for abandonware I think a similar rule should follow. If the software is completely abandoned and as long as there is not a monetary gain the programmers should be flattered that someone is trying to revive there old work. Anyway who are we kidding the fighting going on is not about protecting the programmers intellectual property, it is about protecting the publishers pocketbook (not including Shrapnel since thay seem to be a very different type of game publisher)....but that is another debate.

[ June 11, 2004, 16:32: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

[Nargel Primus]

Having a ball with the references to much enjoyed "classic" games.
MoM also had a unique side effect: my new "I don't play computer games"
girlfriend comes by for the first time and I bring up MoM on the screen.
"Give it a try" I tempt. Snerk...
Full 3-day weekend later she's still there (heh).
Am still married to Faelynn, so it worked pretty well.
One game that hasn't been mentioned that is in the same league for us grognards -
Fantasy General.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
As for abandonware I think a similar rule should follow. If the software is completely abandoned and as long as there is not a monetary gain the programmers should be flattered that someone is trying to revive there old work. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I love the debate and would be glad to debate it with you somewhere like one of my other homes (alt.hacker or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg newsGroups?). And abandonware is a great concept with many pros and cons. There are at least a couple of sites making strong efforts to stay as strict as possible (unlike the "backup" sites which are just warez sites in disquise) but it is stil technically 98% illegal.

BUT this is not newsgroup so its kindof a moot point. Its owned by a game company who does not wish to appear unprofessional. It was created to support their games. That means certain limitations do apply as to what they will seem to support on their service.

[ June 12, 2004, 13:39: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Truper]

My favorite MoM rememberence:

Summon Torin, adventure with him for a while, find/forge him some good equipment. Send him in to take the castle of the Last enemy wizard by himself.

And now the most important part. When he arrives he must intone: I am the Chosen, and you have annoyed me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pirateiam:
As for abandonware I think a similar rule should follow. If the software is completely abandoned and as long as there is not a monetary gain the programmers should be flattered that someone is trying to revive there old work. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I love the debate and would be glad to debate it with you somewhere like one of my other homes (alt.hacker or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg newsGroups?). And abandonware is a great concept with many pros and cons. There are at least a couple of sites making strong efforts to stay as strict as possible (unlike the "backup" sites which are just warez sites in disquise) but it is stil technically 98% illegal.

BUT this is not newsgroup so its kindof a moot point. Its owned by a game company who does not wish to appear unprofessional. It was created to support their games. That means certain limitations do apply as to what they will seem to support on their service. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No problem, I understand as I have said before I am a programmer so I completely see thier side of the issue in fact I still have not completely decided on which side of the debate I am on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ( I am a fence sitter) I will discuss this no more on this forum.

On a side note I see you visit the sourceforge quite alot. I am (indirectly) involved in a few projects. In fact I am playing around with an idea starting a project using Python. I do not know this language well so I figured the best way to learn is trial by fire. (The way I have learned my other Languages) Have you ever used Python? What do you think of it?

[Gandalf Parker]

I wouldnt say Im a python programmer. I know enough to make changes in someone elses code. Ive done that with C, Perl, ADA, Scheme, tons of Languages but I wouldnt say Im a programmer. (cept in BASIC or shell scripts)

[Pirateiam]

Actually I love the debate and would be glad to debate it with you somewhere like one of my other homes (alt.hacker or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg newsGroups?). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I lurk on alt.hacker and other similar news Groups just to keep my eyes open. Currently with the big upsurge of concern over homeland security some of my customers (Water Treatment Plants) want to make sure thier systems are secure since some control systems are now web based so I can log on to troubleshoot problems etc... You guys on alt.hacker are kinda like anti-crackers and just people that thirst for knowledge not really a threat. By the way I love this quote can I use it -

Come here for knowledge, go there for answers. If you don't know the difference, go to AOL.

-- Gandalf Parker

Script Kiddies! LMAO

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> Actually I love the debate and would be glad to debate it with you somewhere like one of my other homes (alt.hacker or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg newsGroups?). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I lurk on alt.hacker and other similar news Groups just to keep my eyes open. Currently with the big upsurge of concern over homeland security some of my customers (Water Treatment Plants) want to make sure thier systems are secure since some control systems are now web based so I can log on to troubleshoot problems etc... You guys on alt.hacker are kinda like anti-crackers and just people that thirst for knowledge not really a threat. {/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah its all white-hats. Almost all of them are system admins or security techs. A nice older crowd than people tend to expect (kindof like this gaming forum) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[qb]
By the way I love this quote can I use it -

Come here for knowledge, go there for answers. If you don't know the difference, go to AOL.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. I think I altered it abit later. It read "If you dont know the difference then you can just go to AOL!" which gave more of the flavor.

[Mind Elemental]

*raises his hand*

I love EFS Hyperion (and hte Fading Suns RPG) to death.

However, it suffers from the same problem that MOM does: brain-dead AI. The EFS AI never launches planetary invasions or builds good units.

Fortunately, EFS has out-of-the-box multiplayer --and hot-seat.

EFS, MOM, Stars!, and Dominions 1/the 2 demo all hooked me the moment I started playing.

[E. Albright]

Originally posted by Lunaticus:
Does anyone have an url for the patches for EFS?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">EFS Hyperion mod homepage (http://www.twarriors.com/~hyperion/hyperion.html)

EFS Nova mod homepage (http://website.lineone.net/~rwein/nova/home.htm)

[Lunaticus]

Thank you very much!

[PvK]

I'm a programmer and I rather like Python, though I've only seriously used it for one project several years ago. It's extremely flexible about what it lets you do, and it offers strong cross-platform libraries to do all kinds of things.

It's extremely good for fast prototyping, or anything where execution speed isn't critical, but development speed is desired. The cross-platform aspect is great, too.

It was quite easy to learn and use. Also since it costs nothing, it doesn't hurt to give it a try.

PvK

[Gandalf Parker]

RATS. EotFS was so recently without a publisher? Why didnt we get them signed on here?


NEWS (updated 6-8-04)
Holistic Design Inc. Signs on to (snipped)
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any others hanging out there waiting for a publisher? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 14, 2004, 19:25: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Taqwus]

Hm, I was under the impression that "Stars! Supernova" had publisher problems as well. I haven't checked their site for a long, long time however. For all I know, Mare Crisium dissolved already.

[Gandalf Parker]

Yeah but they want a publisher who will do "advances". Pay them to work on finishing it.

I do think that Stars was a wonderful game. And I would LOVE to see the new one come out, but Im not sure Id want to put MY neck out that far to see it.

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by PvK:
I'm a programmer and I rather like Python, though I've only seriously used it for one project several years ago. It's extremely flexible about what it lets you do, and it offers strong cross-platform libraries to do all kinds of things.

It's extremely good for fast prototyping, or anything where execution speed isn't critical, but development speed is desired. The cross-platform aspect is great, too.

It was quite easy to learn and use. Also since it costs nothing, it doesn't hurt to give it a try.

PvK <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The strong cross-platform libraries is what has interested me since I plan on using this ability quite liberally. I do have somewhat of a concern on execution speed. What have you experienced with execution speed. Comparable to Pascal or Perl? Do you have any references that you reccomend? My skill level I would say is moderate. I know mostly industrial automation Languages such as Ladder Logic, LISP, Pascal and Fortran. I play with C++ but I am stil self teaching myself.

[Esben Mose Hansen]

As for execution speed, there are plenty of tests out there. I random one from google is here (http://www.flat222.org/mac/bench/).

As for cross-platform and as long as you plan to distribute the executables, there are lot of choices, from C/C++ (with XP libraries) to Perl, Python and Ruby. A short breakdown:

C/C++: Nothing beats these beast for availbility of libraries; relatively hard to learn; unparalleled execution speed.

Perl/Python: The two by far most popular scripting Languages. Both offer excellent XP, large libraries, slow execution speed and fast development time. Python is "stricter" and more formal than Perl; otherwise the Languages are very similar in aim&spirit, so pick the one you like the most.

Ruby: Is relatively new. If you don't care about popularity and large libraries, this may be the ticket. It looks really, really cool but I have not yet had the pleasure.

[Sheap]

Instead of learning C or C++, I recommend stabbing yourself in the head. It will be less painful and you will probably end up with a better program. Except if you are writing specialized software like hardware device drivers or a graphics rendering engine, or if you have to maintain a program that is already written in one of these Languages, there is not any good reason to use them. They are totally obsolete.

If you do have to maintain a program already written in C or C++, see my previous advice.

[Curath]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
Halfling Slingers of doom.

They owned nearly every standard unit in the game due to their luck. I love them :-)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> s it possible to get a Version of Master of Magic that works for windows xp? I'll check out that site Gandalf mentions.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If that is what you whish, here you go: Dosbox (http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/news.php?show_news=1)

Emulates a complete computer that is capable of running most of the older games... I'm using it for Mom, Dungeon MAster and Star Control, also the Last one got some graphical errors </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apologies for this very late offtopic reply.

Why run DM and SC (the second one I assume) in DosBox?
In case you didn't know:

Dungeon Master - Return to Chaos

PC remake of DM and CSB with minor enhancements. Currently at Version 0.28 but it's quite stable (only had a couple crashes playing through DM). Also coming up is a map editor so there may be new dungeons to explore in the future.

The Ur-Quan Masters

Remake of Star Control 2. Version 0.3 so far and it's somewhat buggy.

[ June 15, 2004, 15:34: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Sheap:
They are totally obsolete.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is, of course, a totally false statement, but don't mind. Keep on spreading that FUD.

[Gandalf Parker]

Nothing is ever obsolete, nothing ever completely dies. I still get requests for cobol and pascal and dbase jobs. And for cross-compatibility I prefer BASIC. Everything has its pros and cons. The best bet is to look at those in making such a decision.

-- (sig quote)
"As a system administrator Id rather hire someone who knew 3 'dead' Languages than an expert in just one."

[ June 15, 2004, 14:36: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Sheap:
They are totally obsolete.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is, of course, a totally false statement, but don't mind. Keep on spreading that FUD. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah C++ is far from obsolete. In fact I would say 90% of game developement is written in C/C++.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
Yeah C++ is far from obsolete. In fact I would say 90% of game developement is written in C/C++. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think I might say that for 90% of the shelfware stuff. But not game development in general. I WOULD have agreed with you before I got involved actually contacting game developers to see if they wanted a publisher. I would not have been surprised to find out that 90% were done in C++ but it hasnt seemed to be that way.

Of course thats hard to say also since so much of the game tends to include 3rd party apps and librarys, many of those are written in C++.

I'd say 90% of 'I'd says' are wrong. Including this one.

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Zen:
I'd say 90% of 'I'd says' are wrong. Including this one. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excuse me great Zen. Instead of an insulting remark why not just explain what it is written in. I was only guessing not stating it was written in C++. As Gandalf stated if you are not involved in game development the appearence seems that most are developed in C++ but now from his experience he sees it differntly. Thank you Gandalf for correcting me constructively. As for Zen: for being a moderator you seem to be quite rude sometimes. I can except being corrected but I do not need your unconstructive remarks.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Zen:
I'd say 90% of 'I'd says' are wrong. Including this one. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">90% of all computer Users will say they are below average Users.
90% of all drivers will state that they are above average drivers.
90% of people asked will state that they never do the (illegal/immoral/improper) things that 90% of everyone else probably does do.

And Last but not least, 90% of Dominions 2 players state that they can quite anytime. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Pirateiam]

Takes a deep breath.....

Gandulf,
From your experience what Languages are developers using? I know alot of cross platforming is being done but is there one language used more than others?

I'd say, you should read it again, it was not some sort of insult to you. It was a statement about opinion. Including the opinion of the opinion.

As a 'programmer' of anything you should know that broad generalizations should be avoided.

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
90% of all computer Users will say they are below average Users.
90% of all drivers will state that they are above average drivers.
90% of people asked will state that they never do the (illegal/immoral/improper) things that 90% of everyone else probably does do.

And Last but not least, 90% of Dominions 2 players state that they can quite anytime. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd say 90% is a good round number, depending on the perception of those saying anything. I'd say that Gandalf is right, 90% of the time.

It's sort of like 4 out of 5 Dentist's recommend. 4 out of 5 Swedes Recommend Dominions 2!

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
From your experience what Languages are developers using? I know alot of cross platforming is being done but is there one language used more than others? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No real leaders. Alot of "engines" being created which allow games to be programmed without understanding the nuts-n-bolts of the subroutines. Lots of librarys out which allow people to program the overhead in anything they want.

If anything, Id have to say that Im seeing alot of java but thats probably a wrong impression just because so many of those are "dead ends" for me. A game that sounds great then I find out that its written as a browser game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Not very marketable.

C/C++ are probably still good recommendations for someone who wants to get into a programming "group" who wants to develop a large project. Not that its the only thing they would use but because they tend to always need a couple C'ers to maintain subroutine librarys.

There are a number of Languages where the advantage is in list handling, or fuzzy logic needed for AI. Those are becomming popular for games.

[ June 15, 2004, 16:47: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Pirateiam]

I'd say that I am 90% sure I am never saying
I'd say again on this forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I'd say that I am 90% sure I am never saying
I'd say again on this forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd say you're right!

[Esben Mose Hansen]

If you want to know what Languages are used, try visiting www.sourceforge.net (http://www.sourceforge.net) and check what the more popular projects are using. Here's the data from the 10 most active (I just picked a metric by whim). I must admit that even I am surprised by the breath of Languages used. Assembly was a definite surprise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If you're going by this sample, you should learn PHP and C++ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Java II
JavaScript II
PL/SQL I
ASP I
C# I
Cold Fusion I
PHP III
C++ III
C II
Assembly I
Python I

The projects were:
Gaim
Azureus - BitTorrent Client
ABC [Yet Another Bittorrent Client]
phpMyAdmin
eGroupWare: Enterprise Collaboration
PearPC
FileZilla
WinMerge
FCKeditor
Compiere ERP + CRM Business Solution

[Arryn]

High-performance device drivers are written in assembler, so that should not come as a surprise. Most professional game development, as well as semi-pro (unpaid) projects, is being done in C++ and a variety of tool/library-specific scripting Languages (for graphics, sound, etc.). Some amateurs have written games using MS-VB (which you'll note is missing from the list), but that language is really not suited to the task (or any truly serious work as it generates slow, bulky progs that are hard to maintain). But it's often the only language the programmers know (or own), so they use what they have (rather than be smart and learn a more advanced and truly useful language -- like C++).

Three-quarters of the Languages Mose cites are mainly used for DB connectivity or web-related scripting. Activities that are not really relevant to discussion of what are good Languages for game-related development.

The best language for cross-platform work is Java, assuming top performance is not an issue. If performance is an issue, C++ is then your best choice.

Of course, this entire topic is as likely to provoke an argument as discussing which political party can best represent the wishes of a nation. In other words, you'd do well to do your own research rather than accept what someone else says. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Statistics *always* lie. The only question is ever: for whom/what do the results favor? Only after you can answer that question can you then have any hope to derive meaningful value from any statistics ...

[Gandalf Parker]

Alot of assumptions there. As a programmer shouldnt the variables be defined first?
Games? Platforms? Cross-compatability? Programming langauge?

Based on certain pre-supposed concepts the answer can be quickly channeled into "only one obvious answer". Such as... if games refers to on-the-shelf boxed games, for computers, created by programmers who were hired to create them... If cross-compatable refers to PCs, maybe windows AND linux. If programming excludes high and low ends such as machine language, scripting Languages, development packages and engines...
then Id guess we are all on the right track for the answer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Esben Mose Hansen:
If you want to know what Languages are used, try visiting sourceforge.net and check what the more popular projects are using. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I sent him a PM with the same suggestion (to avoid giving an URL for SourceForge). And I stressed to be sure and check the real traffic.

Personally I feel that site shows ALOT of whats going on in the game development world. There are many Many MANY projects there which are listed as C/C++. But looking at the projects which have actually progressed, and even completed their projects, give a very different picture. Many of the projects seem to have chosen their language of choice based on desire and possible impressions/stereotypes of what it should be done in. I sometimes think that the automatic recommend of C/C++ for learning, doing, career, has done alot toward blowing off many projects/programmers which should have started with something else and maybe moved on to C/C++ later when they really knew why and had the motivation to accomplish it

[Esben Mose Hansen]

I think this quote from the Perl manual sums up perl, if anyone is wondering whether they should learn Perl:

Some operators return the first value in the list. Some operators return the Last value in the list. Some operators return a count of successful operations. In general, they do what you want, unless you want consistency.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not for the formally inclined http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The statistics I presented are totally useless except for fun. And as I did not make clear, I (randomly!) took the top 10 Active projects. So the Languages a listed are REALLY used, not just be some dead projects; but as the project list shows, there is not a single game among them.

I could have taken games; In that case the stats would have been

C++/C: IIIIIII
Java: IIII
Python: I
Other: I

I've lumped C++ and C as mostly they were listed together; if not C++ was listed exclusively.

Oh yeah, I looked up what project the assembly was used for. It was a PowerPC emulator .

Please remember that all this is for fun! I'm not out to get the (insert-obscure-language-here) folks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For the record, since the moon is ascending and the orbital is crossing Pluto and Sirius, I'm a C++ man today. I love the template meta-language. But next month, I'll love some other lanugage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Python, maybe. Or Ruby.