Paper, Rock, Marignon!

[Cheezeninja]

after reading Gandalf Parker's post about the balance of Dominions 2 in the Pangea new age post: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=74;t=002539 i started wondering about what the more experienced people on this board think about certain nations trumping others. Mostly this is just for my education and the education of any other new people out there. What im looking for is kinda

<race 1> beats <race 2> because:
<reason>

[Gandalf Parker]

None of them are absolute. Even my "paper, rock, Marignon" example (good catch picking up on ppaer-rock-scissor thing) isnt absolute. Ulm only does Marignon in shorter games and smaller maps. On the other hand Ermor is vastly damaged by small games and small maps. And of course the biggest factor is whether the nation is being played by a player who can really use that nation well.

It tends to work better when someone brings up a specific. Such as "what trumps Abyssia" or "what trumps Arcos"

I would like to see other peoples ideas for another Paper-Rock-Scissors though

[HotNifeThruButr]

Nobody absolutely beats anyone else. There are plenty of nations with the holy firepower to bLast Ermor to hell. Except Vanheim probably does best against killer dominions, better than even Marignon, I might add.

I'd like to add that Ulm might stand a fighting chance against Ermor if you have your Arbalests gunning for commanders, which would usually mean firing on rearmost. Better with Rangers.BTW, this is "theorycraft," if you're familiar with that term.

[velk]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I'd like to add that Ulm might stand a fighting chance against Ermor if you have your Arbalests gunning for commanders, which would usually mean firing on rearmost.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure about that actually, the motto of ashen empire is 'there's plenty more where those came from'. When you go into a fight with 500 units, expecting 70%+ losses, separating commanders just isn't as compelling as it is for other races. Especially with those particularly vexing immortal commanders.

[Kel]

I am not terribly experienced but it seems to me, that diplomacy and early expansion are the most important factors. Some nations are surely better against certain other nations and contrary to popular cliche, some nations are almost certainly just 'better', on average, than others...but starting position seems more important to me in practice.

- Kel

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I'd like to add that Ulm might stand a fighting chance against Ermor if you have your Arbalests gunning for commanders, which would usually mean firing on rearmost. Better with Rangers.BTW, this is "theorycraft," if you're familiar with that term. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The flaw with that theory is that normal units have no "Fire Rear" option.

[Anglachel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I'd like to add that Ulm might stand a fighting chance against Ermor if you have your Arbalests gunning for commanders, which would usually mean firing on rearmost. Better with Rangers.BTW, this is "theorycraft," if you're familiar with that term. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The flaw with that theory is that normal units have no "Fire Rear" option. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hrmmm, you're the guy with a lot of experience with Ermor's undead themes so perhaps you can confirm that using the "fire large creature" command would be a viable alternative if "fire rearmost" isn't an option? It seems that in Ashen Empire and Soul Gate themes that the largest creatures on the battlefield would be the commanders of the undead horde. Or does shoot largest creature order go for size over overall power? Thanks in advance for your reply.

[ April 28, 2004, 14:50: Message edited by: Anglachel ]

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Or does shoot largest creature order go for size over overall power?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire largest and attack largest target the physically largest creatures.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Hrmmm, you're the guy with a lot of experience with Ermor's undead themes so perhaps you can confirm that using the "fire large creature" command would be a viable alternative if "fire rearmost" isn't an option? It seems that in Ashen Empire and Soul Gate themes that the largest creatures on the battlefield would be the commanders of the undead horde. Or does shoot largest creature order go for size over overall power? Thanks in advance for your reply. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire Largest would target the Behemoths and Bane Lords first, since they're the physically largest opponents: All of the other Ermorian hordelings are of regular human size. Commanders of Ermorian hordes are very good at blending in: Mound Kings are nearly entirely expendable and often attack en-masse with their troops, and Tribunes are also free, although they tend to hang back and may be susceptible to flier attack....if the fliers don't become confused and wind up attacking the back of the front pack instead.

[Anglachel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Anglachel:
Or does shoot largest creature order go for size over overall power?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire largest and attack largest target the physically largest creatures. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Anglachel:
Hrmmm, you're the guy with a lot of experience with Ermor's undead themes so perhaps you can confirm that using the "fire large creature" command would be a viable alternative if "fire rearmost" isn't an option? It seems that in Ashen Empire and Soul Gate themes that the largest creatures on the battlefield would be the commanders of the undead horde. Or does shoot largest creature order go for size over overall power? Thanks in advance for your reply. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fire Largest would target the Behemoths and Bane Lords first, since they're the physically largest opponents: All of the other Ermorian hordelings are of regular human size. Commanders of Ermorian hordes are very good at blending in: Mound Kings are nearly entirely expendable and often attack en-masse with their troops, and Tribunes are also free, although they tend to hang back and may be susceptible to flier attack....if the fliers don't become confused and wind up attacking the back of the front pack instead. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok thanks for the answers guys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif One Last question. If the order is to fire on enemy archers and there are none on the battle field(abysia for instance), who will they shoot at? Will they rush into battle instead? Does the AI take over at that point?

[Karacan]

While no archers are present (or when the archers have run off), orders will revert to "fire none", which usually means firing at the closest. Unless that's in melee, and there's another unit running around.

[HotNifeThruButr]

In that case, I guess Soul Gate and Ashen Empire are horribly imbalanced.

Well here are a few with reasons.

C'tis beats Undead Ermor - Reason: Lizard Kings, Wither Bones
Pythium beats Undead Ermor - Reason: Theurgs + Quickness

Maybe that will start to give you an idea that nothing will absolutely beat another. There is one for almost every nation counter to each other nation/theme.

[Teraswaerto]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
In that case, I guess Soul Gate and Ashen Empire are horribly imbalanced. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hardly. Banishment suffices, and Soul Gate is weak against anything that bypasses etherealness too.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Don't forget to factor in the fact that they kill everyone in their dominion, so once you beat them into the ground, other armies making more fruitful conquests become bigger than you. It's also hard to get into Ermor territory in the first place because your armies would starve, unless you use Vanheim.

Or Nature Magic. Which is a big *or*. It's actually more annoying to take over a C'tis Miasma domain early in the game than it is ever to invade Ermor.

[Kel]

At first, I didn't think they were over-powered. I know what there advantages and disadvantages are, on paper but I have changed my mind after playing some more.

Every single large game I play becomes world vs. Ermor. It can be argued that they are not over-powered all day but so far...well, it is getting kind of old since every game pretty much plays out the same way.

Note, I am not asking for advice on how to beat them or saying that they are unbeatable or saying that they are the best in every situation, on every map or anything to that extreme. I am just saying that every large game with them that I have played so far (ok, barring the one where I allied with them before the game crashed) has played the same way.

I don't think it's the case but maybe everyone is just under the false notion that Ermor is over-powered and that's why it is always world vs. Ermor. Honestly, I don't care, it still causes my games to play the same http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Yes, I know, I can play smaller games and that is what I will do, I suppose.

- Kel

I really have a hard time believing that every game outside of the ones I play end up being "Everyone vs Ermor".

Reasons Why:

1.) If people think that way, they would kill Ermor first. Ermor is pathetically easy to kill if you start next to them. They don't start having the ability to deal with alot of situations until mid-late game. Even with High Powered, Dominion 10 High Magic VQ's.

2.) Soul Gate Ermor and Ashen Empire Ermor are very dominion dependant. They also have a hard time preaching out their dominion. Thus, anyone who can effectively use their dominion and doesn't sacrifice it for scales/pretender can effectively cut off Ermors ability to expand and gain free troops/gem income.

3.) Out of all the games I have played, Ermor has only won once. And is rarely in the final confrontation. Most of the time it's Pythium, Arco, Jotun, Abysia, and Caelum. For the most part, it's Abysia who is always an issue.

For those reasons, I don't believe the hype.

[Kel]

lol, you don't believe me ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Not much I can say to that, I guess.

- Kel

I can believe that every game you play it ends up that way. But I can also believe that the majority of the games you are playing you still don't exactly have the strategy you feel is strong to play with, or that you are playing with players who know their pretender/nation/theme to it's full potential. I may also believe you are playing huge maps. I can also believe that Dead Ermor is definitely the easiest to win with when you are playing those who do not understand alot of the different nuances of the game. You don't have to worry or know about quite a few of the systems of the game because they don't apply to you, so you have less to actually know, so it takes in essence less skill to kill other players of equal skill.

So, it's not that I don't believe you, but I don't believe that Ermor is overpowered by that same reasoning.

[Kel]

While I did state my opinion in one sentence, I wasn't really interesting in debating it since it has been done and I don't want to re-hash it since I don't have anything new to add to the debate on whether they are more powerful on paper. And I am not even saying that I get trounced by Ermor or that they always win the conflict. I even admitted the possibility that maybe just everyone thinks they are over-powered.

I am saying that, for whatever reason, it has caused every large map game I have played to turn into world vs. Ermor (barring the one I allied with them for a change of pace). Hype or no hype. Noobs or non noobs (and I am the former, don't think I have doubts about that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

[Kel]

Oh, and let me add that while I am a very avid player and have gotten a few games under my belt, it is by no means a statistically significant, or even large, sample http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

It could be pure coincidence. I hope so, anyway.

- Kel

[ April 30, 2004, 02:11: Message edited by: Kel ]

[Norfleet]

I like having Ermor around when I'm not Ermor. They're such a huge magnet for public ire, due to Kel's reported "everyone vs. Ermor" effect, that I can justify nearly anything in the name of "let's kill Ermor", all while pursuing my own agenda which has absolutely nothing to do with actually doing anything about Ermor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[HotNifeThruButr]

Zen, maybe it's because they have a big scare factor. All the living immediately drop their swords against each other and gang up on Ermor when it comes into play.

I believe it is the MP learning curve and nothing else. Since games take weeks if not months to play, it is much easier to say the 'greater factor is this' because people spend more of their initial time playing against a certain strategy/level until they learn to overcome it. And it takes a while to learn to counter those strategies simply because this isn't a WC3 game over in 20 minutes game.

[Norfleet]

I think that it's a combination of the factors: Ermor *DOES* have a large scare factor that tends to intimidate players: As a result, they'll often drop everything to gang up on Ermor.

Unfortunately, this tends to actually stunt their ability to learn how to ACTUALLY deal with the problem, since they come to see the dogpile manuever as their most effective solution. Then they complain that Ermor is overpowered because it requires a dogpile of everyone vs. Ermor to defeat.

[Cheezeninja]

It seems to me that Ermor both is and isnt overpowered at the same time. Ermor is very one dimensional but also very powerful in that dimension and its easy for people to see this. I've been playing dom2 for about a two months and im just now starting to get into the semi-correct usage of battle spells. Maybe thats just Ermor's flavor... they can be used well by almost anyone, they scare people alot, and the AI can't handle them well. Offsetting this is the perception people have of all these things which causes people to gang up on them.

The disadvantage of having everyone with a preconcieved notion that your top dog certainly doesnt seem worth any advantage they have.

Even when Kel says most games he play devolve into everyone vs Ermor... that doesnt mean Ermor wins often, or at all.

Quite frankly i dont want to see a game where every faction seems like a recreation of the others with a different paintjob, and i love the fact that there are factions that work in radically different ways.

[Kel]

Originally posted by Cheezeninja:

Even when Kel says most games he play devolve into everyone vs Ermor... that doesnt mean Ermor wins often, or at all. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just to make it completely clear, I am in no way saying that they normally do or do not win World vs Ermor battles.

Quite frankly i dont want to see a game where every faction seems like a recreation of the others with a different paintjob, and i love the fact that there are factions that work in radically different ways. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, see, that's kind of borrowing from my point, actually. You don't want nations to all be the same (and neither do I, then again, theother nations aren't all the same and they don't have this effect)...but it is turning all of my games into being the same (more or less). That's just as bad !

- Kel

[HotNifeThruButr]

Sure, I've got no problems with nations being dramatically different, but I think they should be based around rational concepts. Nothing like the killer dominions.

"I've got an idea! We have this theme that uses hordes of free troops! Because they're free, you don't need scales to support them, so they'll have a beefy SC Pretender ALL THE TIME! Oh, and their dominion KILLS EVERYONE, so armies can't invade without nature magic or fay boars! And when they do, the land is TOTALLY USELESS because EVERYONE'S DEAD!"

[Yossar]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I like having Ermor around when I'm not Ermor. They're such a huge magnet for public ire, due to Kel's reported "everyone vs. Ermor" effect, that I can justify nearly anything in the name of "let's kill Ermor", all while pursuing my own agenda which has absolutely nothing to do with actually doing anything about Ermor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ya, a lot of the time you can get away with saying "Don't attack me, I'm trying to get rid of Ermor" regardless of whether you actually are or not. Doesn't really work with any other nation.

I don't think Ermor is especially powerful, but with Miasma and Carrion Woods, they are among the most annoying nations to fight against.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Sure, I've got no problems with nations being dramatically different, but I think they should be based around rational concepts. Nothing like the killer dominions.

"I've got an idea! We have this theme that uses hordes of free troops! Because they're free, you don't need scales to support them, so they'll have a beefy SC Pretender ALL THE TIME! Oh, and their dominion KILLS EVERYONE, so armies can't invade without nature magic or fay boars! And when they do, the land is TOTALLY USELESS because EVERYONE'S DEAD!" <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I somehow don't think that those were the guiding concepts of Ermor's killer dominions, which are thematic in nature: Ermor is a lifeless nation composed nearly entirely of the undead. It's thematic that all of the population dies and is replaced by undead units.

The drawback being that you lose the ability to effectively produce any OTHER units, because your population is 0 and cannot support such an endeavor, and your army is entirely one-dimensional. There are so many spells and effects designed specifically to eradicate the undead that it's not funny. Practically every offensively-oriented magic path has SOMETHING for specifically wasting undead.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cheezeninja:
Maybe thats just Ermor's flavor... they can be used well by almost anyone, they scare people alot, and the AI can't handle them well. Offsetting this is the perception people have of all these things which causes people to gang up on them.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If the only drawback to Ermor's power was purely perceptual, and people would automatically lose if they failed to gang up on Ermor, then Ermor WOULD be overpowered.

This is not really the case: Well-played, any nation stands a decent chance of defeating Ermor alone. Some nations are better at doing this at different stages in the game than others. Ulm, for instance, stands a good chance at crushing AE Ermor in an early rush, provided that Ermor's pretender can be countered: However, later in the game, Ulm will falter against any flavor of dead Ermor because it is unable to easily sustain its dominion against the increasingly large hordes.

However, Ermor is very simple for even a novice player to use at a decent level of play: Most of Ermor is blunt and easy to get a handle on, and requires little of the fine nuances of other nations. Ultimately, however, Ermor proves one-dimensional. Once you get good at that dimension, you have little else available to you. Other nations have more depth, but a newbie is rarely able to perceive and plumb those depths.

As a result, the common response becomes "Gang Up On Ermor". This rather hamhanded approach, however, targets Ermor's strengths rather than its weaknesses. Thus, Ermor is quickly perceived to be overpowered because everyone pits what could very well be one of their weaknesses against Ermor's strength and attempts to overwhelm it by brute force. Unfortunately, you learn very little this way.

On the other hand, you can make this work for you, provided you do not allow Ermor to intimidate you: People will give you their gold, their gems, their provinces, and leave you alone and unmolested, so long as you profess to be fighting Ermor. Suckers.

[Cheezeninja]

Nature magic is FAR from the only way around the lack of supplies. Commanders never starve, all you really need is troops that dont eat. I've had great success in SP with Devils, but any of the lifeless troops or troops that dont need food work.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
...Ermor's killer dominions...
The drawback being that you lose the ability to effectively produce any OTHER units, because your population is 0 and cannot support such an endeavor, and your army is entirely one-dimensional. ... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It doesn't have to be entirely one-dimensional. The same units enemies can summon to survive in Ermorian dominion, can be summoned by Ermor, particularly if the Ermorian pretender is a rainbow mage who site-searches.

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Sure, I've got no problems with nations being dramatically different, but I think they should be based around rational concepts. Nothing like the killer dominions.

"I've got an idea! We have this theme that uses hordes of free troops! Because they're free, you don't need scales to support them, so they'll have a beefy SC Pretender ALL THE TIME! Oh, and their dominion KILLS EVERYONE, so armies can't invade without nature magic or fay boars! And when they do, the land is TOTALLY USELESS because EVERYONE'S DEAD!" <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Except not.

1) Ashen Ermor is quite rational. Powerful death magic begets undead.

2) Having everyone die is definitely not "free"!

3) The dominion doesn't kill everyone. As mentioned already, there are many of ways to overcome lack of supply, and the dominion doesn't kill troops, nor inconvenience leaders, or any of the many units who need not eat, or who generate supplies.

4) Unpopulated lands are far from totally useless. They can still be full of magic sites which can be more valuable than population. They also serve as obstacles to food-eating armies led by inexperienced players.

PvK

[velk]

particularly if the Ermorian pretender is a rainbow mage who site-searches. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All ashen empire pretenders are rainbow mages to some degree - what else are you going to spend the excess points on ?

[tinkthank]

A different question:

Ulm beats Marignon on small maps / shorter games?? Really? I dont understand that.

[Yossar]

Originally posted by velk:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> particularly if the Ermorian pretender is a rainbow mage who site-searches. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All ashen empire pretenders are rainbow mages to some degree - what else are you going to spend the excess points on ? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You don't have to make a rainbow Vampire Queen. VQ may by the strongest SC pretender but taking something else with a couple paths really high along with fortune and magic can be viable and will also eat up a lot of points.

[Anglachel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
On the other hand, you can make this work for you, provided you do not allow Ermor to intimidate you: People will give you their gold, their gems, their provinces, and leave you alone and unmolested, so long as you profess to be fighting Ermor. Suckers. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Rofl. Funny stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cohen:
The Ermor problem (or better, advantage) is that he can take a lot of points from scales, getting 600 points more or less (Turmoil 3, Death 3, Sloth 3, Cold 3 = 480.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">C'Tis can do nearly exactly the same thing, taking order 3, sloth 3, heat 2, and misfortune 2 with Miasma and a dominion strength of 9 or 10.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
It doesn't have to be entirely one-dimensional. The same units enemies can summon to survive in Ermorian dominion, can be summoned by Ermor, particularly if the Ermorian pretender is a rainbow mage who site-searches.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it possible for the pretender to summon other troops, but, unfortunately, the pretender is but a single mage who is usually very, very busy. This cannot begin to compete on even footing with nations that can afford to summon these same troops using their expendable national mages....and you will get little help from Ermor's nationals, as most of their skills are entirely in death magic, with but a single random on the Elders.

It's also surprisingly easy to actually work out PEACE with Ermor: Everyone hates Ermor, so Ermor will be likely to happily accept whatever friends it can get. As long as your dominion is not weak, and you are able to keep its destructive dominion out of your lands, a mutually beneficial relationship can be had. Plus you can tell everyone else that you're trying to attack Ermor and get them to give you stuff. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Kel]

Hmm, wonder if anyone will believe me when i say I was *not* trying to set off another round of Ermor strength/weakness debates ? I honestly was not trying to make a debate on that and I am not even necessarily sure myself (though I still have my own opinions on it).

In fact...even if they are somewhat over-powered, whatever you think about it, it would have less effect on games (the ones I have experienced, anyway) then the perception that they are...or whatever it is that causes the game to become World vs. Ermor (I think there are multiple reasons, actually).

In a complex, deep game with good variety, there aer inevitably going ot be balance issues, it's unavoidable and understandable. I *like* the idea that some nations work differently with certain rules. I would certainly not want to see every nation dumbed down into LI and HI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The only thing I don't like is that Ermor, in a large game, makes games play pretty similary. Frankly, other than just not playing large games, I don't even have a solution ! Yeah, shoot me, it was just a comment, should have known it would turn into an Ermor pro/con debate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Kel:
The only thing I don't like is that Ermor, in a large game, makes games play pretty similary. Frankly, other than just not playing large games, I don't even have a solution ! Yeah, shoot me, it was just a comment, should have known it would turn into an Ermor pro/con debate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Large games with Ermor game the game play similarly because everyone's gut reaction to Ermor tends to be to try and organize against them. Is it a surprise, therefore, that when half your players are banding together in mortal terror against Ermor, that the game will unfold similarly?

Not buying into the hysteria can be very profitable for you. You merely need to be aware that the hysteria will exist, and that it can be exploited for your own ends.

[Kel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Large games with Ermor game the game play similarly because everyone's gut reaction to Ermor tends to be to try and organize against them. Is it a surprise, therefore, that when half your players are banding together in mortal terror against Ermor, that the game will unfold similarly?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not a surprise at all.

That's the problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Kel:
It's not a surprise at all.

That's the problem http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Once again, I place the blame clearly on tight pants.

If your players all *WANT* to gang up on Ermor, you're going to have a gang-up on Ermor. It's purely psychological, there's absolutely no reason for this.

[Mardagg]

Wasnt the topic about Marignon...oh well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I second Kel`s opinion,or feeling,that large games more often than not tend to play quite similar,because of an huge alliance against Ermor.

I,personally,see 2 problems with the Ermor themes,that I dont like,even though I dont consider Ermor overpowered,especially not in the end game or at the very beginning,when the forces of darkness are small.

problem 1:

Ermor (AE and SG) is the nation that benefits the most from players switching to AI or dont giving orders anymore.
Large games tend to Last longer on average and cover normally all 17 nations.
This leads,naturally,to quite a few players,who cant or dont want to invest time anymore in the game.
Now,as the AI cant deal with Ermor,Ermor will be happy,if he is neighbouring such a country.

But Ermor does also benefit more from players doing nothing and not going to AI.
Ermor normally has the troops to conquer all those unprepared provinces much faster than other nations.Ermor also dont has to worry about supply,which can be important if the inactive nation is quite big,especially important if this is at the beginning of a game,where most nations dont have the environment to produce supply items,castles or summon non-eating troops.

Solution:
Make at least the AI stronger against Ermor.
As this wont be likely,this problem will most likely not be solved this way.


Problem 2:
Big games very often,too often,lead to an "all gang on Ermor situation".
This can also be sometimes frustrating for the Ermor-player -)
Just to clarify:
I have played several MP-games now,mostly large games.
When it goes to the middle game and later to the end game,I have yet to see a vanished Ermor Empire.
Whereas I have seen nearly all other nations,in one game or another,already vanished.
Especially in large games,where everyone has to plan for longterms,everyone knows,that an early attack on Ermor will severely hamper his own expansion(maybe getting gems,but no income;producing more priests/researching special spells/producing special troops which may become quite useless afterwards)compared to others who wage war against "Normal "nations or only indies.
Because of this and the fact,that the map is bigger than in smaller games(thus it is more diffult to attack Ermor earlier with more nations),its juts plain clear that Ermor will survive until everyone fears him and gangs on him.Normally this will be the case,when certain very terrific globals are put up with huge amout of extra gems and/or the Army/gem/castle graphs
grow bigger and bigger,until all nations are scared just because of the numbers.

Solutions:

-Play smaller maps,where Ermor more often gets cleaned from the map early
-Ally with Ermor.
(possible,but for some nations very difficult).
-Dont allow Ermor at all or only their main theme.
-Attack Ermor alone as soon as you see it.
(Well,depending on the situation and your nation/tactic this could prove to be suicide more often than not,especially after Ermor has established a strong position,which will be in large games with lots independents most likely the case).

Best solution:
-make their main theme stronger,so that at least sometimes one will encounter this.
I have yet to see a MP game,where Ermor uses the main theme and that makes me sad:(
This solution also would solve the first problem,i have with Ermor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
Ermor normally has the troops to conquer all those unprepared provinces much faster than other nations.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ermor actually has a troop production problem in the early game, which severely limits their early expansion.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
Solutions:

-Play smaller maps,where Ermor more often gets cleaned from the map early
-Ally with Ermor.
(possible,but for some nations very difficult).
-Dont allow Ermor at all or only their main theme.
-Attack Ermor alone as soon as you see it.
(Well,depending on the situation and your nation/tactic this could prove to be suicide more often than not,especially after Ermor has established a strong position,which will be in large games with lots independents most likely the case).<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These are all potentially valid approaches, but all still derive from one issue: That Ermor is somehow special and must be dealt with in some way immediately or the problem becomes untenable.

This is the response of hysteria. This is the fundamental reason why people like to ally against Ermor...and this is something you can play like a fiddle. Nearly any act or demand, no matter how outlandish, can be justified in the name of "attacking Ermor". People will willingly hand over tracts of territory that lance straight into the heartlands....just because you said you wanted to attack Ermor. It is entirely profitable to you to feed off of their fear, conning them out of their resources and valuables, all so you can "fight Ermor", whether you're actually going to do so or not: This can then all be diverted into your own personal agenda, which may or may not have anything to do with Ermor.

I say again: Ermor isn't the problem, player hysteria is the problem.


Best solution:
-make their main theme stronger,so that at least sometimes one will encounter this.
I have yet to see a MP game,where Ermor uses the main theme and that makes me sad:(
This solution also would solve the first problem,i have with Ermor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Broken Empire could definitely use some improvement, given that it really, well, kinda boring. It's just like all the other nations.

[Karacan]

The one reason why Ermor would still be playing in the middlegame is, for me, because I know I can likely handle them late game (unless I play Ulm, that is).

I find an Evocation-researched mass-communing Pythium, a Vastness-empowering, clam-hoarding R'lyeh or a devil-chainproducing Abysia much more scary in the middle to end-game than the thought of trudging an army of priests through inhospitable terrain. So naturally, those are prime targets I'd invest much more energy in to take out early. Even a Machaka with Flaming Arrows scares me more - but that's probably only because I lost my very first real DomII pbem against them because of underestimation on my part...

[Cohen]

The Ermor problem (or better, advantage) is that he can take a lot of points from scales, getting 600 points more or less (Turmoil 3, Death 3, Sloth 3, Cold 3 = 480. Misfortune ... up to you ... 3 would be nice, most events kills pop, but this prevent you from receiving national heroes. However from 0 to 120 additional points).

So on his pretender is almost always overpowered ... for Ashen Empire and Soul Gate.
So it would be nice in a patch to see Ermor not getting pretender design points from non-affecting bad scales. He gets only from Lucky and the Magic scale.

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Sure, I've got no problems with nations being dramatically different, but I think they should be based around rational concepts. Nothing like the killer dominions.

"I've got an idea! We have this theme that uses hordes of free troops! Because they're free, you don't need scales to support them, so they'll have a beefy SC Pretender ALL THE TIME! Oh, and their dominion KILLS EVERYONE, so armies can't invade without nature magic or fay boars! And when they do, the land is TOTALLY USELESS because EVERYONE'S DEAD!" <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In what way is pop killing dominions not a rational concept? If you are trying to point out a flaw or suggest a change your cause would benefit from presenting it in a polite way.

[ April 30, 2004, 13:02: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Cohen:
The Ermor problem (or better, advantage) is that he can take a lot of points from scales, getting 600 points more or less (Turmoil 3, Death 3, Sloth 3, Cold 3 = 480. Misfortune ... up to you ... 3 would be nice, most events kills pop, but this prevent you from receiving national heroes. However from 0 to 120 additional points).

So on his pretender is almost always overpowered ... for Ashen Empire and Soul Gate.
So it would be nice in a patch to see Ermor not getting pretender design points from non-affecting bad scales. He gets only from Lucky and the Magic scale. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Powerful does not mean overpowered. If AE or SG Ermor is overpowered it is not from the pretenders, these have been this way since dom 1 and Ermor certainly wasn't overpwered in MP then, perhaps it has become so after income reduction etc in dom 2, but the cause of any imbalance is not that their pretenders have more magic than other pretenders.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Mardagg:
Wasnt the topic about Marignon...oh well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[...]Especially in large games,where everyone has to plan for longterms,everyone knows,that an early attack on Ermor will severely hamper his own expansion(maybe getting gems,but no income;producing more priests/researching special spells/producing special troops which may become quite useless afterwards)compared to others who wage war against "Normal "nations or only indies.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Putting things back on topic with Marignon ... I'd say almost half the nations in the game at least have themes where it doesn't hurt them at all to build up the priests to fight Ermor.

Marignon : Priests who can cast Holy Pyres, who are very solid mages, or who only have Fire-1 but can cast fanaticism.

Vanheim : Priests who are mini-SCs with the right equipment, who can also cast lightning and other air spells.

Pangaea : Dryads who are stealth preachers which also have nature magic and are the nations most cost efficient researchers.

Pythium, Serpent Cult : Mage priests. Base Pythium is even better with its _huge_ combined priest / mage commanders.

Atlantis : Very beefy fairly cheap combat Consorts, and beefy fanaticism casting Coral Queens.

Abyssia : Anathemants and Demonbreds - priests with good fire magic, flying, etc.

Arcos : Priestesses with nature magic, research, and healing.

Man : Last of the Tuatha theme has great commanders with priest abilities, Sidhe and Tuatha.

C'tis : No one ever got crucified for hiring a Lizard King (Priest 4). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Caelum : Stealthy flying priestly Seraphines.

Jotunheim : Huge Jotun Herses / Godes : Sacred Priestly mini-SCs. And Neifel Giants are obscene, with their theme.

R'lyeh : Priest 3s with Sorcery _and_ a random magic pick? What's to regret building?

Mictlan : Ouch! I've never played them - but good level (P3/P4) priests, most of whom have blood, and who additionally have lvl 2 Fire, Water, Astral, or Nature magic?

T'ien C'hi : Their mages are priests. All Ermor does is get the mages into the HoF.

That's an awful lot of nations / themes that don't lose anything in the long run for having to recruit priests to combat Ermor, imo. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Mictlan : Ouch! I've never played them - but good level (P3/P4) priests, most of whom have blood, and who additionally have lvl 2 Fire, Water, Astral, or Nature magic?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All but 1 of the national commanders of Mictlan are priests. They can throw absolutely massive numbers of holy 2 priests at Ermor.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Never played Mictlan. Seems kinda boring when you need blood summons to make an effective army.

Oh, right johan osterman, I forgot about the magic sites, which are basically the most important thing in the game because who needs a mundane army when you can have a summoned one?

<==== is an angry little man http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Never played Mictlan. Seems kinda boring when you need blood summons to make an effective army.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would that be boring?

Oh, right johan osterman, I forgot about the magic sites, which are basically the most important thing in the game because who needs a mundane army when you can have a summoned one?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure what you are complaiming about. There are very few effective armies that can be built out of summoned troops only.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Well, when I played my first Mictlan game, I kept thinking to myself. Why didn't I use any other blood nation instead? The ones that have troops that can actually stand up against the enemy and compliment my demonic divisions of doom.

And on that second part, I meant that an enormous percentage of your armies can be made of summons and your nation soldiers just become support. Looked like I meant armies made completely of one type or the other, my bad.

[Teraswaerto]

Try Mictlan with a Fire 9 Moloch. Sun & Eagle warriors are quite good for their cost, and Jaguar Warriors can be build in all castles.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Are jaguar warriors sacred? I was under the impression that they weren't

[Yossar]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Are jaguar warriors sacred? I was under the impression that they weren't <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So the little icon on the unit description that says "Sacred" is just a big trick by the Ilwinter guys?

[HotNifeThruButr]

Note to self: completely and utterly destroy Yossar.

[Maltrease]

That is a good trick. I wonder how many other units have the icon but are not actually sacred.

Frankly if I was unit I would definetly paint that little icon on me. I'm sure the sacred units can demand a lot more respect out of the average peons.

I wonder if priest are sacred?? hmm...

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Are jaguar warriors sacred? I was under the impression that they weren't <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What would give you that impression? You have actually looked at the units they have?

[HotNifeThruButr]

'twas a long long time ago. I thought Marignon was the only nation with holy units everywhere, but I thought wrong, and no, you don't have to tell me that 3+ times.

Edit: I just lost 20 sages out of 26 to a barbarian attack in my library province. Never put all your eggs in one basket, or should I say nerds in one lab. I don't know why I'm posting this here, but it pissed me off and I thought I should put it SOMEWHERE.

[ May 02, 2004, 03:19: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

[Yossar]

Never put your sages in a province that doesn't have a fortress. Either move them or build one.

[Cohen]

Well, I noticed by gaming experience that all thos stats of units, are totally worthless.

Mid-Late games ruled by Pretenders, SCs and powerful mages.

Only the Last thing is included in the Nation Choose. And a little for SCs ... for National Heroes or something big you can recruit.

The game later is all "summons, spells and forging items" which are a common base for all the Nations.

Far better how to say:
Vampire Queen, AllFather, Carrion Dragon!

Or something similar...

[Gateway103]

Originally posted by Maltrease:
That is a good trick. I wonder how many other units have the icon but are not actually sacred.

Frankly if I was unit I would definetly paint that little icon on me. I'm sure the sacred units can demand a lot more respect out of the average peons.

I wonder if priest are sacred?? hmm... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Respect, yes. But you also get paid less proportionally to your hiring/build cost. Recall upkeep for sacred units is 1/30 of hiring price, and 1/15 for normal units.

So on the same cost basis, your non-sacred collegues are earning twice as much salary as you, lol.

-Gateway103

[mlepinski]

Originally posted by Cohen:
Well, I noticed by gaming experience that all thos stats of units, are totally worthless.

Mid-Late games ruled by Pretenders, SCs and powerful mages.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cohen, I'm curious what kind of games you play that would give rise to your viewpoint.

I'm willing to believe that perhaps regular units are completely obsolete by the end of a long game on a huge map, but my (somewhat limited) experience has been that top tier national units continue to be useful throughout the entire game on many maps.

- Matt L. :->

[Maltrease]

A very good point http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So maybe it would be better to be the Tower Guard with a nice coushy pension than the blessed Lava Warrior waiting to be trampled by routing elephants.

Of course with the paint you could simply pretend to be sacred when situation would benefit from it.

Originally posted by Gateway103:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Maltrease:
That is a good trick. I wonder how many other units have the icon but are not actually sacred.

Frankly if I was unit I would definetly paint that little icon on me. I'm sure the sacred units can demand a lot more respect out of the average peons.

I wonder if priest are sacred?? hmm... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Respect, yes. But you also get paid less proportionally to your hiring/build cost. Recall upkeep for sacred units is 1/30 of hiring price, and 1/15 for normal units.

So on the same cost basis, your non-sacred collegues are earning twice as much salary as you, lol.

-Gateway103 </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[ May 03, 2004, 00:06: Message edited by: Maltrease ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Maltrease:
Of course with the paint you could simply pretend to be sacred when situation would benefit from it.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but then you get reported as bugged, and people would stop recruiting you. Then you'd be COMPLETELY unemployed.

[HotNifeThruButr]

Nah, you'd be an exploit and be abused.