Possible way out of the V.Q. Problem [Archive]

Etaoin Shrdlu

May 3rd, 2004, 07:09 AM

I've been watching the Boards and a lot of posters have concluded that the Vampire Queen pretender is overpowered, to the level that one poster reported multiple nations picking that chassis. Since otherwise in this game practically everything has a (sometimess very nation-specific) counter, if people are deciding that the only way to stop a VQ is to have one yourself, this is a very serious problem. Here are a couple of solutions (these may be totally unworkable but I'm trying to help, ok?) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
1. The Switcheroo: The players are asked to design a pretender for a (randomly drawn) nation. Then after that's done, the players receive notice that they are now playing someone else's nation/pretender combo. Result: You know there's a VQ out there-- you have the receipt-- and it ain't yours. Now go beat down on your own creation. If you can... (Oh and players must design to less than say 15 design points remaining. We don't want players ending up with crippled pretenders, although the punishment would likely be getting one back... so maybe this is self-policing)

2. (simpler, don't have a name for it yet): This assumes the Game-master can look at the creations. If it is noted that two (or more) nations have selected the same chassis, all of them must redesign to a different avatar. If they match again (haven't decided if it's a problem for landing on a previously innocent one-- some nations don't have that many choices) they have to switch again. If they match a third time the still-matched players have to design each other's pretender as in #1 above.

Is this Completely Off Base, Unworkable, or Just Too Obvious?
Or something else?

Zapmeister

May 3rd, 2004, 07:14 AM

A large part of the fun of this game, for me, is designing and playing a pretender. Playing someone else's pretender would be much less fun.

The solution I've recently used is to create a house rule strictly limiting use of the VQ. If someone cheats and uses a VQ when they shouldn't, it will become very obvious very quickly.

[ May 03, 2004, 06:15: Message edited by: Zapmeister ]

Cohen

May 3rd, 2004, 07:17 AM

If you know you'll play another Nation, why not to do the pretender as weak as possible?
And perhaps you find yourself playing with a Nation you dislike, or you'ren't skilled in (especially for newbies) ...

I believe this is not realizable.

Norfleet

May 3rd, 2004, 07:28 AM

I recall Zen mentioned a switcheroo-style game.

The end result being that usually, the objective was to create the most perversely useless god combination possible, in hopes that you end up running the creation of someone less creative than you. I heard the blood-9 manticore was rather popular.

Besides, Zen says that there's no VQ problem, since VQs are clearly not optimal. It's not even really that hard to kill one, if you know what to do...and there's a lot of ways to do it.

[ May 03, 2004, 06:30: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Cohen

May 3rd, 2004, 07:36 AM

Well, I take the less cost chassis, a Crone.
Assign all scale at -3.
Oks, I've about 1000 points to spend ...

Mmmm let's click on *ready* ...

Who want to play with this Crone?

PvK

May 3rd, 2004, 09:10 AM

If lots of people choose VQ, that just means lots of people think it's powerful and/or want to try it.

If a group of players really think it's too much and wish VQ's were weaker, it's a few lines of modding to tone her down somehow. In the thread suggesting such, I think we were leaning toward simply increasing her cost or her points required for new magic paths (and/or reducing her starting paths).

PvK

Norfleet

May 3rd, 2004, 09:33 AM

Pocus

May 3rd, 2004, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I recall Zen mentioned a switcheroo-style game.

Besides, Zen says that there's no VQ problem, since VQs are clearly not optimal. It's not even really that hard to kill one, if you know what to do...and there's a lot of ways to do it. that its possible to kill reliably the VQ of an opponent doesnt means she is not unbalanced.

If I take a parallel, the German Atlantic Wall was a success. It costed far more for the allies compared to its costs (roughly 2 billions dollars) to the German. You have to take into consideration the direct cost of something, and the indirect cost too, and often the indirect cost is far more important to consider.

Graeme Dice

May 3rd, 2004, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Would be nice if you guys that object to her would try and look for "in game" solutions to your problems with the Vampire Queen rather than "out of game"(i.e. NERF HER!) ones.Why don't you provide a method for every nation to easily defeat an elemental immune VQ with full equipment, MR in the 30's, all three damage shields, five or six mirror images, mistform, luck, and protection in the 20's. Note that this has to be a solution that works _after_ she has finished her buffing spells, as you can't guarantee that she won't come without an army in front of her. It also has to be a solution that can work multiple turns in a row.

You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly.The insults make you look really mature.

If there were no "in game" solution to the Vampire Queen THEN she would need to be nerfed. From reading on this forum, this seem to NOT be the case though. Do a search and you will find Vampire Queen counter tactics galore.No, you will find tactics that are available to a few of the nations in rather special cases, and which mostly require that she be caught alone so that every spell hits her.

Graeme Dice

May 3rd, 2004, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums.Note the "Lose his entire army to one". If that's not overpowered for a naked SC, then I don't know what is.

And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.I'm calling your bull**** here Norfleet. She's immortal, and won't lose any magic paths for a death.

Cainehill

May 3rd, 2004, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Anglachel:
Yep. I repressed a sigh this morning when I read yet another topic about the Vampire Queen and how to "fix" her. Would be nice if you guys that object to her would try and look for "in game" solutions to your problems with the Vampire Queen rather than "out of game"(i.e. NERF HER!) ones. You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly. Just take a step back from the whole Vampire Queen thing and try to get some perspective. An "in game" solution would be more creative and fun to me than an "out of game" solution. If there were no "in game" solution to the Vampire Queen THEN she would need to be nerfed. From reading on this forum, this seem to NOT be the case though. Do a search and you will find Vampire Queen counter tactics galore. Anyway, this will be the first and Last time I post on this subject. Pretty tired of the perpetuation of it and don't want to add any more to it than this post. I'm not one of the "VQ Terror Squad", but actually I'd say that no there is not an ingame solution. Yes you can kill VQs. Problem is that it doesn't gain you anything. She doesn't lose magic paths. She doesn't waste 1-6 turns of the nations time as they try to call her back. It doesn't even get the VQ off your back, because the ***** flies right back! It's like you're swatting cockroaches with a sledgehammer.

In addition, you wind up wasting your time with Vampire Death Squads, which you have to build a lot of, because you can't tell where she'll strike (except you know it'll be friendly dominion for her). These VDS's aren't optimal for regular combat, so they're collecting upkeep twiddling their thumbs hoping they'll stumble across the VQ, who is probably smart enough to avoid those armies.

Frankly, the VQs are exasperating because too many people consider them the ultimate pretender (and they do have a bigger pile of goodies than any other, imo). In one game, 3 of the closest empires to me had VQs, on my borders, at once. It's nuts.

PDF

May 3rd, 2004, 03:03 PM

Funny how some people react sometimes : on the ground that a VQ is beatable they dismiss the issue of its/her unbalance.
We aren't talking of strategies against VQ, but about balance and variety in Pretenders.
That a VQ is overpowered is just obvious when you compare her to other or only look at her abilities.
If someone can claim and demonstrate "Well, my Druid ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )is as much powerful/useful than a VQ" (using same point cost)we could progress. Else competitive MP will be plagued by VQs and people of bad faith that don't see any issue with this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif ...
Let's also propose a temporary fix : ban'em http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif !

Pirateiam

May 3rd, 2004, 03:45 PM

I have said this before - If you do not believe the VQ is unbalanced then you either have never met one in a Multi-player game with someone who knows how to use them (Norfleet, Catquiet etc...)or you yourself use them most of the time. One question for those VQ Users - do you not want more of a challange?? I play multiplayer to be challanged how about you?? I think it is time to ask the developers this question. What do they think??

Daynarr

May 3rd, 2004, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
Let's also propose a temporary fix : ban'em http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ! Why ban them? Make a mod and use it in MP games.
I'm for increasing their overall and path cost.

Cohen

May 3rd, 2004, 04:26 PM

Most of the players won't use mod in MP, cause none can assure these players does the mod to advantage them or however, which is their balancing skill.

So on it's better for all us to tell there our complaints, and wait for Devs to answer there, and to change something in the next patch, if they choose to.

Teraswaerto

May 3rd, 2004, 04:39 PM

The VQ is immortal and can easily become an SC, and she's not too expensive either. It should be pretty obvious why a cheap immortal SC is overpowered.

Norfleet

May 3rd, 2004, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I'm calling your bull**** here Norfleet. She's immortal, and won't lose any magic paths for a death. So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime.

Anglachel

May 3rd, 2004, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Anglachel:
[qb]

[QUOTE]You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly.The insults make you look really mature.

<hr /></blockquote>Insult? Just thought it was merely a descriptive turn of phrase. At least that was how I meant it at any rate. Didn't realize also that you could glean maturity from one sentence posted on a board. Guess I should have written something like "You guys fuss about the Vampire Queen too much." But wait, somone might find that insulting as well and question my maturity yet again(curious that you find my maturity a subject of interest). So what is a person to do? Guess I had better not express any opinions then. They could be interpreted as insulting as well!

Seriously though,I just like the image evoked from the phrase I used. Didn't realize you found insult in such things so easily. My apologies to everybody. It's stuff like this that keeps me from posting on Boards usually. I I find this board to be exceptional in lack of taking things out of context, petty bickering, arguing for the sake of arguing, and petty, personal comments that I fail to find has any relevance on the topic at hand. But I guess there are always exceptions. Oh well, I will content myself to sitting on the sidelines and just reading the Boards. Take it easy.

JaydedOne

May 3rd, 2004, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by PDF:
Funny how some people react sometimes : on the ground that a VQ is beatable they dismiss the issue of its/her unbalance.
We aren't talking of strategies against VQ, but about balance and variety in Pretenders.Agreed. VQs are, at face value and after some experience playing them, just a little too much better than the average Pretender. Generally, if I know that there's a Pretender I'll play for 95% of the games (the other 5% being small map, difficult research or something of the like) I enter into with a certain country in MP, it's either a matter of extreme personal taste and comfort or it's a matter of that Pretender having a disproportionate advantage over its fellows.

As has been mentioned in other threads, either the VQ needs a slight power-down (loss of flight or ethereal might be enough) or a good number of other pretenders need a slight power-up.

rabelais

May 3rd, 2004, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I'm calling your bull**** here Norfleet. She's immortal, and won't lose any magic paths for a death. So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime. <hr /></blockquote>That's extremely difficult to do, with your "mad castling and temple-ing" strat.

It's broken, admit it.

You should be proud that you found a chink in the ruleset armor, but that doesn't mean it needs to be preserved. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Rabe the Large (sacrificial) Lamb.

Vynd

May 3rd, 2004, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
So get rid of the enemy dominion. You have to do that anyway. A VQ which can't leave its own dominion while you gradually chip the dominion away and move in isn't doing any harm to you. If it's not hurting you, it's not accomplishing anything. It'll have to come out to play sometime. I don't claim to be a skilled multi-player. But I don't see why eliminating your opponent's dominion is something you "have to do anyway." Surely it is better to have a province with an enemy's dominion in it than to not have the province at all, right? Especially if the enemy's dominion is something relatively benign, like high order and productivity. You won't benefit from his nice stuff, but it only hurts you to the extent that it impinges on your own dominion's benefits. Of course it would be even better if it had your dominion, but if you keep taking over the enemy's territory, building the occasional temple and whatnot on the way, then surely his dominion will start to decline. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The problem comes in when the other guys dominion is actively unpleasant. That's when you have to work hard to reduce it and restrict it, as opposed to just taking over the territory and watching the dominion gradually switch as a matter of course.

Thus, it seems to me that the argument that you can deal with the immortality of the VQ simply by doing the things you would do against any opponent seems flawed to me. Combating the dominion of the VQ requires an extra effort, making it that much harder to research, build a strong army, etc.

[ May 03, 2004, 18:36: Message edited by: Vynd ]

Etaoin Shrdlu

May 3rd, 2004, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Cohen:
If you know you'll play another Nation, why not to do the pretender as weak as possible?

Because if everyone does it, then they get a junk pretender back. I guess what I was trying for was: Make something you wouldn't mind playing as OR playing against. If the optimal solution for Switcheroo is design a WEAK pretender, then remind players that you might get it thrown back in your face-- either courtesy of someone else who had the same idea, or your own concept boomeranging on you.

And perhaps you find yourself playing with a Nation you dislike, or you'ren't skilled in (especially for newbies) ...

Part of the risk.

I believe this is not realizable. Also I haven't been around long enough to really get all that deep into things, but I see there's been quite a run of response in 12 hours, I'll have to wade through the rest and maybe modify the idea. If and when I get into an MP (is there a MP rookie league?) I want there to be a variety of designs out there, not variations on a (rather depressing) theme...
Oh and the closest I've come to anything involving clams is that when I picked that picture I'd had fish and chips for lunch that day. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

PvK

May 3rd, 2004, 07:34 PM

Originally posted by Cohen:
Most of the players won't use mod in MP, cause none can assure these players does the mod to advantage them or however, which is their balancing skill.
... The players have to use it on their end too. It's simple to see what exactly a mod does, especially a small one.

PvK

AhhhFresh

May 3rd, 2004, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by JaydedOne:
As has been mentioned in other threads, either the VQ needs a slight power-down (loss of flight or ethereal might be enough) or a good number of other pretenders need a slight power-up. Loss of ethereal would be a pretty big nerf... though I'm not saying I'm opposed to it...

It would make her near useless in the early game (unless she takes Astral)... but probably no less powerful in the mid-to-late game. The reasoning behind that statement being: ethereal+luck+armor (and Enc 0) is basically unstopable against indie troops... but ethereal is meaningless when facing other player's SC's who presumably will be equiped with magic weapons.

While that does address my major issue with her... ie that she is "uber" throughout the game, while most SC Pretenders have to "retire" to the library at some point... I'm not sure about it.

If you did that, then all the VQ lovers would just switch to GK's and then we'd encounter an uprising to nerf them.

Taqwus

May 3rd, 2004, 08:27 PM

Ghost Kings, however, are not immortal; so a Ghost King SC can pay a fairly hefty price when slain in terms of both magic loss and temporary unavailability. Nor, if memory serves, do they natively fly. They shouldn't be recklessly risked on battles at potentially suicidal odds while expanding at the expense of the local independents.

Teraswaerto

May 3rd, 2004, 08:30 PM

In Dom vampires are immortal, ethereal, and can fly. Increased cost, decreased starting dominion, increased cost to get new paths. One or more of these would do the trick.

Kel

May 3rd, 2004, 08:35 PM

Ethereal is a con-4, 2S item. Personally, I don't think it really means much at all to remove that, given her other varied and copious defenses.

- Kel

JaydedOne

May 3rd, 2004, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by Kel:
Ethereal is a con-4, 2S item. Personally, I don't think it really means much at all to remove that, given her other varied and copious defenses.

- Kel It means she doesn't get to wear Elemental Armor. That means a lot.

Vynd

May 3rd, 2004, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
In Dom vampires are immortal, ethereal, and can fly. Increased cost, decreased starting dominion, increased cost to get new paths. One or more of these would do the trick. I think that 0 encumbrance is an important part of the VQ's arsenal, too. And Drain Life as her natural weapon doesn't help matters.

Of course besides all the stuff that makes the VQ a great SC, she also starts with 1 Death 2 Blood magic. And she gets free vampires from time to time. And she's stealthy, and... But I digress.

Blitz

May 3rd, 2004, 09:59 PM

I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ.

- Norfleet
Anyone else notice that the biggest defenders of the VQ are the ones that play her in almost every game? Yes, I'm aware that you probably know more ways to deal with this nuisance than most, having spent significant time playing her.

The point you are either missing, or ignoring because adressing it would change the way you "like to play" is this: Just because you can handle something does not mean it's not overpowered when taken in the context of the game. Your arguments sound a lot like someone who is arguing that longbows are not better than slingers by pointing out the weaknesses of longbows. The frailties of longbowmen do not change the fact that they are, in every respect superior to a slinger, so much so that no Man player will ever buy a slinger.

I do not want to personally attack you Norfleet, I'm rather new here and I don't try to start flamewars... but ask yourself this. Would you use the same VQ chassis if it cost 150 points instead of 110? I suspect the answer is yes. Would you still use her if she lost a misc slot? Probably. Idealy this game should be so well balanced that losing any of her attributes would make another unit superior, this clearly isn't the case with the VQ. Losing flying won't make the lich better. Losing immortality won't make her less useful than the ghost king.

That's the problem with your favorite chassis Norfleet. She's too cheap for what she does. Immortality, Earthrealness, Flying, Life drain, Cold resistance, poison resistance, fear, regeneration, stealth. Take ANY of that away and she's still a steal at 110 points... and that my friend is the problem, not the inability of players to kill her on turn 40.

Slygar

May 3rd, 2004, 10:06 PM

I really really think the VQ needs to cost more and have a way higher path cost.

I was going to put a bunch of comparisons here, but you guys probably know what everything is anyways. Just ask yourselves which you *really* fear more: A father of serpents, a Titan, or a Cyclops (which all cost *more* than a VQ, in case you forget) or.. a VQ. Or, just open up the Lich and compare it to the VQ, which costs the same. No stealth, no etherealness, no flight, no regeneration, no free ethereal flying commander killing hippies. Oh yeah, you get -2 lesser fear instead of -4. Whee.

The fact that a VQ is killable does not make it balanced or reasonably priced. I have played using nearly all pretenders, and the VQ is definately the strongest I have found. Yes, there are ways to kill them in MP (the Ai is horrid at it) but they are still way tougher than their cost would show. I say 175 for the chassis, 60 path cost. All those goofy plans to balance it by changing it around seem kind of pointless.

Incidentally, why is the Master Lich so much crappier than the Lich? I think their stats got reversed..

[ May 03, 2004, 21:07: Message edited by: Slygar ]

AhhhFresh

May 3rd, 2004, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Ghost Kings, however, are not immortal; so a Ghost King SC can pay a fairly hefty price when slain in terms of both magic loss and temporary unavailability. Nor, if memory serves, do they natively fly. They shouldn't be recklessly risked on battles at potentially suicidal odds while expanding at the expense of the local independents. True, a VQ is superior in many respects to a GK... the main one being Immortality.

However, it wasn't really my intention to debate the merits of a Ghost King vs. a Vampire Queen... I mainly meant that they are similar in that with minimal research/forging they both can slice right through independents with nary a scratch.... and with more research/forging (ie Phoenix Pyre/Soul Vortex + Elemental Armor) they are dominant SC's in the late game who have few weaknesses.

So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King.

Blitz

May 3rd, 2004, 10:10 PM

Incidentally, why is the Master Lich so much crappier than the Lich? I think their stats got reversed.. The Master Lich is 20 points cheaper and has THREE misc slots. He's no Vampire Queen, but he's my favorite pretender.

Blitz

May 3rd, 2004, 10:19 PM

So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King. Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.

If the VQ were to vanish from existance, you would still see ghost kings out there filling the same role. The GK is a very strong chassis, it's just that most players don't think 20 points is too high a price to pay for flying, immortality, life drain, regeneration, and blood magic.

Hell, I'd pay 20 points just for the flying. The rest is just insanity.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense.

[ May 03, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: Blitz ]

AhhhFresh

May 3rd, 2004, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So if one nerfs the VQ to the point of weakness, expect to see the same template moved over to the Ghost King. Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.

If the VQ were to vanish from existance, you would still see ghost kings out there filling the same role. The GK is a very strong chassis, it's just that most players don't think 20 points is too high a price to pay for flying, immortality, life drain, regeneration, and blood magic.

Hell, I'd pay 20 points just for the flying. The rest is just insanity. <hr /></blockquote>I can't really argue with that.

rabelais

May 3rd, 2004, 10:31 PM

I think some people in the thread are missing the point.

First of all, taking ethereal away won't do *anything*. The canonical VQ has astral (4-6)

The only clearly effective thing to do is create a new counter to immortality.

Item or rule change? Whatever.

But under the current conditions VQ's are quite seriously broken, particularly for Ermor, who can make a ...

killer flying no melee fatigue AND life draining immortal regenerating (ALL while NAKED!!) SC=norisk and nofear

The lack of risk is the problem, since it creates an artificially munchkinish scenario, something games with deep balance (like this one) would tend to abhor.

Perhaps have the "immortal" god require a delay of three turns, or even a (40 priest level)callback as normal, but no path loss if death was in god's dom?

Still technically abusable, but less so.

Rabe the Van Helsing Intern

[ May 03, 2004, 21:36: Message edited by: rabelais ]

AhhhFresh

May 3rd, 2004, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by rabelais:

First of all, taking ethereal away won't do *anything*. The canonical VQ has astral (4-6)
Hmmm... yeah I guess you don't really have to fear Mind Duel as much when you're immortal. Anything that had an Astral high enough to kill it reliably would be a huge loss if you got a unlucky roll. And of course the VQ just comes back next turn.

Didn't really occur to me that immortality is a perfect work around to the vulnerability that's supposed to be inherent in Astral magic.

Though a high Astal VQ, only seems to be "uber" for Ermor... since they have a gajillion(roughly) points to spend on their pretender.

mivayan

May 3rd, 2004, 10:48 PM

A ghost king who gets a crossbow bolt in each eye on turn 4 will be much less of a danger compared to a vq in that situation.

Raising new path cost to 80 like the great mother, medusa, phoenix, dragons would not be out of line. It is a loss of 2-3 scales for many builds, and might be enough of a balance.

[ May 03, 2004, 21:53: Message edited by: mivayan ]

Cainehill

May 3rd, 2004, 10:52 PM

Someone else mentioned how other SC pretenders wind up having to retire to the laboratory after a while, while the VQ doesn't.

Why does immortality heal all wounds? I thought that was what recuperation was for. I mean - you come back from the dead instantly, AND you heal wounds?

Mythology, folk tales, all those have lots of instances of beings obtaining immortality. And finding out that immortality is a curse - living forever after a hand is crushed, an eye is lost, reduced to a suffering heap of flesh that only wishes it could die.

If the VQ and other immortals had to obtain the Chalice, the high level Nature spell, or whatnot, they might not be so unbalanced. A blind crippled armless VQ isn't so scary, now is it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(And this highlights another thing that is basically ... dubious, that way that most pretenders wind up cripples. C'mon! They're on the verge of godhood!)

Either immortality shouldn't heal wounds, or all pretenders should have a slow form of recuperation.

Edit : And of all the immortals, I'd say the VQ was still the most broken - all others have some fairly heavy weaknesses. The bog mummy and the lichs have vulnerability to fire, the Phoenix is so fragile and so limitted in item slots / melee. By contrast, the VQ has no vulnerabilities (even though vampires were commonly vulnerable to sunlight, silver, running water, and yes, fire.

Side note : Are there really supposed to be two bog mummies for Jotunheim, one immortal and the other not?

[ May 03, 2004, 22:04: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Norfleet

May 3rd, 2004, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Precicely my point. The GK is almost like a nerfed VQ. It loses the blood magic, Flying, Lifedrain, Immortality, Regeneration and is a whopping 20 points cheaper.It also has far cheaper paths: If you're not willing to screw over your scales to get the high and diverse magics needed to create a really heavyweight SC, you can go the GK route instead, and either get the same scales with higher paths, or more paths with the same scales. If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. The lifedrain is a minor matter, as the VQ loses its lifedrain when given a weapon, which you will do shortly anyway, just to prevent empty slots from picking up cursed items. The blood magic is mostly meaningless on the VQ, as blood is by far the cheapest path to empower in, and provides absolutely no benefit in combat, the main reason why you'd take a VQ: To have the best possible base chassis for building a monster SC out of it. In exchange, you basically get squat all as far as dominion strength(an unexceptional 2), and blessing bases(death/blood, neither of which are strong blessing material). You're going to have to pay for any extras yourself. While a potent defensive weapon, as an attacker, the VQ is somewhat less impressive, as immortality is gone in enemy dominion, and the chassis itself is physically frail, having a mere 23 base HP.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense. This is indeed not "equivalent" to immortality, but it's definitely a feather in the cap of somebody taking the GK route instead. Sure, it's not a substitute for immortality, but the lower chassis cost, combined with the lower path cost, will let you afford better defensive paths on top of that.

LintMan

May 3rd, 2004, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I recall Zen mentioned a switcheroo-style game.

The end result being that usually, the objective was to create the most perversely useless god combination possible, in hopes that you end up running the creation of someone less creative than you. I heard the blood-9 manticore was rather popular.How about this for a switcheroo-style game:
Everyone designs a pretender for a race, submits it, and Posts the details of their design. If there are any stinker pretender designs, people can vote that that designer has to play his own cruddy pretender. All the other (resaonable) pretenders get randomly assigned to the other players.

Also, there should be a chance that you could randomly get your own design, so if you go for a very mediocre pretender (not quite bad enough for people to stick it to you), you still have to worry about getting stuck with it.

As far as creatively bad pretender designs, my pick would be for something like an immobile "rainbow" oracle or blood fountain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Cainehill

May 3rd, 2004, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
[...] If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. [...] I don't think you would, Norfleet. Not after the first time you got feeble minded, or got some other seriously debilitating wounds (mute, blind) and realized that hey! Those inflictions aren't going away like they used to! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

I almost think you'd start playing Carrion Woods with a Carrion Dragon instead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

May 3rd, 2004, 11:47 PM

Side note : Are there really supposed to be two bog mummies for Jotunheim, one immortal and the other not? [/QUOTE]

One is a Dracolich.

Cainehill

May 3rd, 2004, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by Zen:

Side note : Are there really supposed to be two bog mummies for Jotunheim, one immortal and the other not? One is a Dracolich. [/QUOTE]

Eh... There's already a Dracolich showing up, for 50 points. A "real" Bog Mummy for 110. And a "pseudo" Bog Mummy for 100. Something is wrong if people can get a Dracolich for 50 points, or a Dracolich for 100 points.

Maltrease

May 3rd, 2004, 11:59 PM

A fairly radical idea, not directly related to the Vampire Queen but would solve the issue of it being nearly impossible to kill.

What is it was not possible to have total immunity to two opposing elements. If you are immune to fire than the best you could do is 50% cold immunity, etc.

I don't know what other elemental forces directly oppose each other but they could work in a similar way.

Cainehill

May 4th, 2004, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by Maltrease:
What is it was not possible to have total immunity to two opposing elements. If you are immune to fire than the best you could do is 50% cold immunity, etc.

I don't know what other elemental forces directly oppose each other but they could work in a similar way. Curious about that myself, since the two elemental staves are supposed to give partial resistance to each of the elements used in forging it. But I've never seen or heard of "Earth Resistance".

And I agree - right now it's way too easy to get elemental immunities. Seems like it'd be better if resistances went in 25 / 50 / 75 increments, and _only_ a few artifacts granted full immunity.

[ May 03, 2004, 23:08: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Blitz

May 4th, 2004, 12:08 AM

If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. I don't think ANYONE has a problem with the Ghost King. It's a very strong pretender base, one of the best in fact. However, anyone can see that a GK is inferior in almost every respect to a VQ, yet you would choose it over any other SC chassis.

I have to ask though... what would you put in that extra misc slot... a pendant of immortality? C'mon man. Give me a break.

Graeme Dice

May 4th, 2004, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Something is wrong if people can get a Dracolich for 50 points, or a Dracolich for 100 points. The dracolich isn't immortal, so it's priced at the same rate as the other dragons.

Norfleet

May 4th, 2004, 12:17 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
I don't think ANYONE has a problem with the Ghost King. It's a very strong pretender base, one of the best in fact. However, anyone can see that a GK is inferior in almost every respect to a VQ, yet you would choose it over any other SC chassis.That's because at the moment, the GK lives in the shadow of the VQ. It actually has many positive traits, and is in some ways superior to the VQ: If you're not interested in actually LOSING, the GK's higher defense value will keep him alive where the VQ would probably bite the dust. Sure, biting the dust is merely an irritation for a VQ, but you're still losing the battle. Immortality can't help you there, if you're losing province after province, and having your dominion replaced by enemy dominion.

The whining will surely start anew if the current crop of whiners has their way and gets a significant nerf to the VQ, when souped-up GKs start getting crammed down people's throats. The fact of the matter is that if you want a pretender tailored specifically for the express purpose of asswhailing, not for any secondary objective like blessing, or filling gaps in national magics, you're going to pick a chassis that supports this, and it's going to dispense a lot of indiscriminate justice....because that's what you paid for it to do!

rabelais

May 4th, 2004, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
It also has far cheaper paths: If you're not willing to screw over your scales to get the high and diverse magics needed to create a really heavyweight SC, you can go the GK route instead, and either get the same scales with higher paths, or more paths with the same scales. If the VQ were significantly altered, such as losing a Misc slot, I'd be dumping it in favor of the GK. The lifedrain is a minor matter, as the VQ loses its lifedrain when given a weapon, which you will do shortly anyway, just to prevent empty slots from picking up cursed items. The blood magic is mostly meaningless on the VQ, as blood is by far the cheapest path to empower in, and provides absolutely no benefit in combat, the main reason why you'd take a VQ: To have the best possible base chassis for building a monster SC out of it. In exchange, you basically get squat all as far as dominion strength(an unexceptional 2), and blessing bases(death/blood, neither of which are strong blessing material). You're going to have to pay for any extras yourself. While a potent defensive weapon, as an attacker, the VQ is somewhat less impressive, as immortality is gone in enemy dominion, and the chassis itself is physically frail, having a mere 23 base HP.Um... norfleet, with all due respect, this is a bunch of hooey.

You do not need to give the VQ items to avoid boobytraps, because she drops everything when she dies. (at no penalty to paths) Even cursed, horror marked and afflicted she can be a uber-SC with no risk. Bully for recuperation! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Scales are nigh irrelevant, except for magic and luck.

Dominion dependent HP's are bugged, and in my experience, very rarely do you avoid a bonus, unless you are jumping from negative dominion to negative dominion (something you explicitly would not do with this strat) so regen is more useful than the chassis would indicate.

The life drain sometimes works even with through items(again bugged?), and since she needn't fear curses, you would in any case be foolish to divest yourself of the ability.

The path cost difference between 20 and 40 is immaterial, since the GK cannot rival the VQ as a naked SC. It may be that any immortal chassis is abusable, which is why I recommended changes in immortality, not the VQ per se.

Ermor has the points to be munchkinish here is all that matters.

Hell they might still be able to build a munchkin SC if the path cost were 80 for the VQ ...though someone would have to run the numbers. (I'm sure you have) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It is BROKEN for ermor. I know you are fond of it, but come on.

If you can build a (near or absolutely) naked immortal SC (esp with native high dominion), and get enough income from luck/overtaxing to protect your temples... there is no reasonable strategy that will do much more than slow you down.

Meanwhile ermor can afford to be patient as magic-3 gives them excellent research.

It has been demonstrated (by you) that this is quite a plausible scenario, and something therefore needs to be changed.

Basically AFAIKT if a person can attack ALL your castles with enough strength to get the walls down in simul, then they could threaten you.

This is unlikely to be the case, as you know.

Even if you subject to a huge pile-on (as you should be) it would have to be far more coordinated than most I've seen to have an effect.

Meanwhile whoever is *trying* fruitlessly to stop you is losing developmental ground to other nations and will eventually get cannibalized.

Rinse and Repeat and. Victory is nigh inevitable, if you are patient.

If there is a legitimate counter to the ermor-naked-VQ SC... with castles to protect omnipresent temples, I'd love to hear it.

I'm a fairly clever fellow, and I can't find one that is plausible with an even remotely level playing field.

Ironically, one might stop you temporarily with a non-drainable horde, but as you are ermor, the difficultly in acquiring such is ...formidable.

edit: The GK also has a much higher defense value. Please do not try to argue that this equates to immortality or any such nonsense. This is indeed not "equivalent" to immortality, but it's definitely a feather in the cap of somebody taking the GK route instead. Sure, it's not a substitute for immortality, but the lower chassis cost, combined with the lower path cost, will let you afford better defensive paths on top of that. All you need is immortal naked SC viability, the path boost above the minimum munchkin design is unnecessary and beside the point. The synergy between immortality and dominion for ermor (who recuits troops independent of scales) is simply too great.

As I said, you should be proud you found a way to minimax break the game, but that doesn't mean it should be permitted indefinitely.

Rabe the Rebutter

[ May 03, 2004, 23:39: Message edited by: rabelais ]

Blitz

May 4th, 2004, 12:44 AM

The whining will surely start anew if the current crop of whiners has their way and gets a significant nerf to the VQ, when souped-up GKs start getting crammed down people's throats. Let me explain this to you in a different way Norfleet. In every MP game these issues come up. You, like myself have probably played a lot of these games, and we've seen this movie before. I hesitate to use a RTS example, because of the usual TBS snobbery against the "strategy for the masses clickfest" flames, but it's the best comparison I can think of.

Back when Warcraft 3 first came out there was a unit called the Demon Hunter. Given the right equipment, this unit could kill entire armies and bases all by itself. Huge heated debates raged on message Boards and a lot of the same kinds of arguments were used that we are seeing here. Good players could overcome the Demon hunter because they were skilled players, but in the end the Demon Hunter was given a HUGE nerf and you know what?

The good players were still good players, the bad players were still bad players... and the Demon Hunter, even after his huge nerf was still a great unit. You just didn't see him in every single game, and we didn't have the boredom of seeing the same unit over and over again.

That's probably what's going to happen here Norfleet. The VQ is going to get nerfed, because even with all your good arguments (sometimes I wonder why the hell you use her if she sucks so bad), it's plainly obvious to everyone that the VQ is quite a bit better than the rest of the pretenders. And you know what? You'll either keep using the weaker Version or find another strategy to keep winning.

The greatest thing about it Norfleet? Now when you kick someone's *** with a Ghost King or Carrion Dragon, they can't say squat. Know why? Because you are a good player and you'll adapt. That is... unless you can't win without your precious vampire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

From what I've heard, you seem to have a pretty good idea how this game is played. And I'm pretty sure that once the inevitable happens, you'll do just fine. So stop fighting it and just accept your nerf like a man.

PvK

May 4th, 2004, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Cainehill:
... Why does immortality heal all wounds? I thought that was what recuperation was for. I mean - you come back from the dead instantly, AND you heal wounds?

Mythology, folk tales, all those have lots of instances of beings obtaining immortality. And finding out that immortality is a curse - living forever after a hand is crushed, an eye is lost, reduced to a suffering heap of flesh that only wishes it could die.

If the VQ and other immortals had to obtain the Chalice, the high level Nature spell, or whatnot, they might not be so unbalanced. A blind crippled armless VQ isn't so scary, now is it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
There's a good point. The full-rebuild makes more sense (to me) for a Phoenix (back from the ashes), but immortality mechanics are sort of thin ground for logical considerations.

(And this highlights another thing that is basically ... dubious, that way that most pretenders wind up cripples. C'mon! They're on the verge of godhood!)
Hmm, game was developed by Norse people. Odin is more or less the head of the (pre-Christian) Norse pantheon has the "lost an eye" affliction. And I don't recall anyone bellyaching about it! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If a pretender is so great, how come he let himself get gimped? Guess his player isn't as clever as all that. I'm losing faith already! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Either immortality shouldn't heal wounds, or all pretenders should have a slow form of recuperation.
... If you want everyone to heal afflictions for whatever reason, there's a mod for that.

PvK

Etaoin Shrdlu

May 4th, 2004, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by LintMan:
How about this for a switcheroo-style game:
Everyone designs a pretender for a race, submits it, and Posts the details of their design. If there are any stinker pretender designs, people can vote that that designer has to play his own cruddy pretender. All the other (resaonable) pretenders get randomly assigned to the other players.I LIKE this one. It's better (and shorter, and more directly self-policing) than the "Double-Header Switcheroo" idea I was working on this morning... Game One with your own design, then as soon as someone gets knocked out, Game Two starts with Current Leader getting the next-to-Last-place player's nation, working inward. (with one less player-- the player knocked out of Game 1 not participating in Game 2.) Best combined finish (your nation G1, the nation you ended up with G2, your nation as it was played in G2, weighting to be determined) wins the match. The point is that players should be building pretenders they wouldn't too much fear as opponents while still being playable on their own. {Looking again at your proposal... how would it be known that the design posted was the real one actually submitted? Likely safer to have the Game Director post them...}

Also, there should be a chance that you could randomly get your own design, so if you go for a very mediocre pretender (not quite bad enough for people to stick it to you), you still have to worry about getting stuck with it.

As far as creatively bad pretender designs, my pick would be for something like an immobile "rainbow" oracle or blood fountain. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Yes, and OUCH. Uses all the points uselessly. At least it can forge things though...
Anyone have any comments on the "No Duplicate Avatars Please" concept? It's been kinda neglected... {nuts that's still a junky name for it...}

PvK

May 4th, 2004, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu:
... Anyone have any comments on the "No Duplicate Avatars Please" concept? It's been kinda neglected... {nuts that's still a junky name for it...} Sounds fine to me. I don't remember if you mentioned, but ideally a non-player would check the pretenders, so fog-of-war about your opponents isn't lost.

PvK

Anglachel

May 4th, 2004, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I see it as popular hysteria. People HEAR that the VQ is overpowered, usually because somebody loses his entire army to one and starts a *****fest on the forums. Everyone else sees, "I gotta get me one of these", and tries it. And indeed, it's very effective against anyone who has no clue how to counter, but once they meet somebody who knows how to counter it, and they don't know how to respond to it, they're going to walk away very disappointed with their no-magic VQ. Yep. I repressed a sigh this morning when I read yet another topic about the Vampire Queen and how to "fix" her. Would be nice if you guys that object to her would try and look for "in game" solutions to your problems with the Vampire Queen rather than "out of game"(i.e. NERF HER!) ones. You guys are like some puppy worrying a pooh cuddly. Just take a step back from the whole Vampire Queen thing and try to get some perspective. An "in game" solution would be more creative and fun to me than an "out of game" solution. If there were no "in game" solution to the Vampire Queen THEN she would need to be nerfed. From reading on this forum, this seem to NOT be the case though. Do a search and you will find Vampire Queen counter tactics galore. Anyway, this will be the first and Last time I post on this subject. Pretty tired of the perpetuation of it and don't want to add any more to it than this post.

Cainehill

May 4th, 2004, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cainehill:
Something is wrong if people can get a Dracolich for 50 points, or a Dracolich for 100 points. The dracolich isn't immortal, so it's priced at the same rate as the other dragons. <hr /></blockquote>But if _both_ picks are the identical Dracolich, one selection is buying it for 50 points more than the other selection.

Not to mention that the player will have thought she was getting a Bog Mummy.

Graeme Dice

May 4th, 2004, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by Cainehill:
But if _both_ picks are the identical Dracolich, one selection is buying it for 50 points more than the other selection.Only one of those bog mummies is a dracolich. That's the 50 point form, which has a bog mummy as its alternate form. The other one is the immortal bog mummy.

Gandalf Parker

May 4th, 2004, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LintMan:
How about this for a switcheroo-style game:
Everyone designs a pretender for a race, submits it, and Posts the details of their design. If there are any stinker pretender designs, people can vote that that designer has to play his own cruddy pretender. All the other (resaonable) pretenders get randomly assigned to the other players.I LIKE this one. It's better (and shorter, and more directly self-policing) <hr /></blockquote>Hmmm I better stay out of this. My pretenders are very specific toward boosting certain tactics and strategys. They are sure to be viewed as "stinkers" by most players. turning "stinkers" into a surprise is kindof the definition of my style.

Graeme Dice

May 4th, 2004, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
If you're not interested in actually LOSING, the GK's higher defense value will keep him alive where the VQ would probably bite the dust.It won't help against curse + tramplers, which will quickly render any ghost king an afflicted mess.

Stormbinder

May 4th, 2004, 02:55 AM

GK is fine Norfleet. Sure, it's a good SC, but so are many other pretenders. The most important difference between him and VQ is obviously immortality. Your argument "ok, but for VQ death is still unconvinient because you lose the battle" doesn't hold any water, and I think you know it yourself.

I was mostly staying away from this arguments, but to add my two cents:

Yes, VQ is a bit too powerfull in my opinion. Surely, it can be defeated, but that's not the point as somebody else already said here. The point is that it is significantly more powerfull than any other none-nation specific SC pretenders, and that's why there are so many of them in MP games.

It is not game-wreaking type of unbalance for me, but I certanly wouldn't mind if it would be toned down a bit, like leaving her stats the same but changing cost of additional magic pathes to 80 for example. That would make it significantly
more expensive to make standart run-off-the-mill "air2/earth3/water2" VQ.

Cainehill

May 4th, 2004, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cainehill:
But if _both_ picks are the identical Dracolich, one selection is buying it for 50 points more than the other selection.Only one of those bog mummies is a dracolich. That's the 50 point form, which has a bog mummy as its alternate form. The other one is the immortal bog mummy. <hr /></blockquote>What's the third one then?

Jotun has:

#1 Dracolich: 50 points
#2 Bog Mummy: 110 points (immortal)
#3 Bog Mummy: 100 points (not immortal)

If you're saying that #3 is also a Dracolich, how come it costs 50 points more than Dracolich #1, and why doesn't it display as "Dracolich"?

Point is, something here is broken and should be fixed. (In addition to getting the Skratti back, which is what _I_ think might be the cause of #3.)

LintMan

May 4th, 2004, 04:18 AM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LintMan:
How about this for a switcheroo-style game:
Everyone designs a pretender for a race, submits it, and Posts the details of their design. If there are any stinker pretender designs, people can vote that that designer has to play his own cruddy pretender. All the other (resaonable) pretenders get randomly assigned to the other players.I LIKE this one. It's better (and shorter, and more directly self-policing) <hr /></blockquote>Hmmm I better stay out of this. My pretenders are very specific toward boosting certain tactics and strategys. They are sure to be viewed as "stinkers" by most players. turning "stinkers" into a surprise is kindof the definition of my style. <hr /></blockquote>On the contrary! It might work out great for you: If other players thought your pretender designs were stinkers, then they'd stick them back to you, and so you'd get to play your own preferred design, while everyone else had to put up with someone else's choices.