Pretender Cowardice?

[Cainehill]

It's well known that certain pretenders run like hell as soon as their auto-comrades have routed or died - the Moloch, for instance, flees as soon as his imps have died.

But in a test I just made, the Lord of the Desert Sun kept going even after his lions bit the dust, with no other friendly units (I'd sent him solo, to check something).

Any idea why, apparently, some pretenders flee like mice, while others do not? No berserking involved (though the LotD had Nature 9, that doesn't affect him), no magic items, no immortality. Spells cast were regeneration, field shield, and then funeral dirges, after the 40 barbarians quickly ate the 4 lions and then the Lord.

[Norfleet]

I think it strongly depends on whether the monsters in question spawn as yours, or as "special monsters". For instance, the Wraith Crown seems to create "special monster" skeletons, that, when slain, merely produce a "Special monsters are routing" message, and have no effect on you. Did the LotDS produce this message when his lions bought it? If so, the Lord of the Desert Sun is a much more attractive pretender chassis, since he lacks the consummate cowardice of other "accompanied by X" chassis.

[Gateway103]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I think it strongly depends on whether the monsters in question spawn as yours, or as "special monsters". For instance, the Wraith Crown seems to create "special monster" skeletons, that, when slain, merely produce a "Special monsters are routing" message, and have no effect on you. Did the LotDS produce this message when his lions bought it? If so, the Lord of the Desert Sun is a much more attractive pretender chassis, since he lacks the consummate cowardice of other "accompanied by X" chassis. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't the Wraith Crowns just create skeletons at beginning of battle, aside from etherealness and increase undead leadership? (Launch game and check) Yes they do. Now if you mean displaying "Special monsters are routing" only after all the skeletons are slain... nope, never seem that, despite witnessing quite a few times of the Wraith Crown skeletons being wiped out, and left my Bane Lords all alone to fend for themselves (I field them solo in my SP games). Only time I have seen that message is with the Ashen Angel from Manifestion (maybe Earth Attack and Ghost Rider may yield similar things, haven't used those spells much lately).

I did notice that, on a few occasions when this happens, that my Bane Lords actually retreated (they have flying boots, so being surrounded didn't matter). Yet at other times, they kept on fighting, eventually routing the enemies. This is with 2.11 also. So I don't know what's the deal with the retreating behaviours on auto-summoned troops...

Just some observations

-Gateway103

[ May 04, 2004, 06:57: Message edited by: Gateway103 ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Gateway103:
I did notice that, on a few occasions when this happens, that my Bane Lords actually retreated (they have flying boots, so being surrounded didn't matter). Yet at other times, they kept on fighting, eventually routing the enemies. This is with 2.11 also. So I don't know what's the deal with the retreating behaviours on auto-summoned troops...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bane Lords don't have perfect morale, so they DO eventually bug out if the battle turns really ugly, but they don't seem to auto-rout as a result of the Wraith Crown skellies.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I think it strongly depends on whether the monsters in question spawn as yours, or as "special monsters". For instance, the Wraith Crown seems to create "special monster" skeletons, that, when slain, merely produce a "Special monsters are routing" message, and have no effect on you. Did the LotDS produce this message when his lions bought it? If so, the Lord of the Desert Sun is a much more attractive pretender chassis, since he lacks the consummate cowardice of other "accompanied by X" chassis. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, there was no message about routing. In three battles, all the lions died without routing. (In the third, the LotDS also died without routing. Happily, this was just a test. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

[Cainehill]

Turns out that if the lions die in battle, everything's okay and the LotDS continues fighting.

But if the lions rout instead of dying, the LotDS also routs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Norfleet]

That could explain the Wraith Crown, too. Skeletons never rout, they just die.

[PvK]

Perhaps same as Moloch imps too, since imps can rout.

PvK

[Arralen]

Wait - where's the logic?

normal troops die - normal commanders route ..

Lions die - LotDS figths on ..

Imps die - Moloch instantly retreats !!

Somehow I can't see the pattern ...

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by Arralen:
Wait - where's the logic?

normal troops die - normal commanders route ..

Lions die - LotDS figths on ..

Imps die - Moloch instantly retreats !!

Somehow I can't see the pattern ... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think the moloch would continue to fight as well- if ALL the imps died in one turn.

[Adept]

Indeed, the problem is that the pesky imps rout every time. They are much worse than useless. Has anybody tried modding the Moloch to fix this?

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Adept:
Indeed, the problem is that the pesky imps rout every time. They are much worse than useless. Has anybody tried modding the Moloch to fix this? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have a Version of the Moloch where he does not summon any imps. I'd much rather be able to give him a lifelong protection, or make him unroutable though.

[NTJedi]

I could be wrong but... if you give the Moloch one or two guard commander units won't he stick around ?

I agree what has been described in previous Posts is a bug with Moloch.

[Endoperez]

I think units guarding commander are not considered when the game checks whether all commanders are dead/routing. Useful in the case of mages/priests, but for others you would have to use H&A closest.

[Vynd]

Originally posted by NTJedi:
I could be wrong but... if you give the Moloch one or two guard commander units won't he stick around ?

I agree what has been described in previous Posts is a bug with Moloch. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Even if this works, it really cuts into the effectiveness of the Moloch since most nations don't have flying troops they can recruit to zoom around with him. Plus there's always the possibility that the guarding troops will get killed along with the imps.

On a related note, I think it is pretty annoying how having low levels of PD in your provinces makes it more difficult to defend them using your SCs. Once that one point's worth of PD routs, your SC is going to rout along with it. Unless the SC is immortal and in friendly dominion, that is.

[DeathDaemon]

Along the same lines... when I used to make massive amounts of centaur commanders decked with items, I found that just adding a couple more non-commanders made battles much more difficult to win. It was much easier to fight with commanders alone then trying to add a squad of troops that were supposed to delay the enemy enough such that the commander losses were minimal. Sure it made cmdr losses minimal... they all leave as soon as a couple of crappy guys die! They would fight to the death if alone.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by DeathDaemon:
Along the same lines... when I used to make massive amounts of centaur commanders decked with items, I found that just adding a couple more non-commanders made battles much more difficult to win. It was much easier to fight with commanders alone then trying to add a squad of troops that were supposed to delay the enemy enough such that the commander losses were minimal. Sure it made cmdr losses minimal... they all leave as soon as a couple of crappy guys die! They would fight to the death if alone. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My standard workarund with such situations is to have a single crippled soldier (movement 2) way in the back, with order to "hold and attack". By the time poor invalid gets to the battlefiled, it's all over. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Or just have few archers in the back, and make sure enemy will not get to them with your band of commanders.