VQ Counters - NO Debates

[Pirateiam]

Ok I grow tired of debating VQ balance issues. Please do not post any debates or opinions on balance issues. I only want lists and explanations of VQ counters - NO Flames. Just ideas and be somewhat specific. Please list whatever you think may work no matter how crazy. Here are a few I have been thinking about.

VQ Hit squad : 10 scouts (or best stealth unit available) with Herald Lances and 10 scouts with Justmans Crossbows (Set on fire at flying units). This squad could work behind lines and even though not kill her permanently it could harass her enough so she keeps an army with her and maybe slow down some expansion. You could add flying boots to make them more mobile.

Natahara VQ Killer: I am currently trying in SP a quickened Natahara with duel Justmans Crossbows. 2 shots per turn -set on fire at flying unit. Do not know if she will specifically pick out the VQ in a large battle. Still trying to set-up a live fire exercise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I know this does not tackle the Immortal domminion/castle building issues but I will let others look at that. Even if you have stated them earlier in post please re-state them so we can have complete list here for people to try out. Ok pour on your ideas and again Please PLease no debates.

[ May 05, 2004, 05:58: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

[Pirateiam]

I am thinking about another idea but someone needs to answer this question. Here is the scenario: Lets say you kill the VQ (in her Domain) but on the same turn begin sieging her capital. Does she rematerialize inside the capital castle, even if it is being seiged?

[rabelais]

Yes.

Teleporting in defending *armies* is possible, the pretender is no sweat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Pirateiam]

So... What you are saying if you had a Hunter team and a strike team you could possibly corner her in her capital.

Ok I have a rough idea but will have to come up with what units would be best to use. If you were to use my Hunter team to kill her then on the same turn Fly or teleport a large Undead Killing Army (heavy with priests and Herald lances) You could Kill her permantely. After being called back she comes back to the capital right? So as long as you hold the Ermor capital she possibly could be screwed. Time to fire up clash of titans map for two humans to try this out.

Does anyone have even a smaller map then Clash of Titans for testing purposes?

[ May 05, 2004, 06:24: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

[Pirateiam]

Could someone verify this. I am running some tests for VQ counters and I watched my VQ attack an independant. When I attacked I had 40 HPs but they raised all the way up to 62 by the end of the battle. Does Life Drain actually add on top of her hitpoints. I thought it just added only up to her normal full HP's.

[Norfleet]

There's basically two ways to go about the problem: Deliberately target the VQ and attempt to destroy it, or simply strike with sufficient force that the VQ is not equal to the task of defending against your attack.

If you want to deliberately kill the VQ, you have to put it down outside of its dominion, or jack the capitol. Capitol jacking is fairly straightforwards, but odds are that the VQ, as the most potent item available to the nation, will certainly try to attend. We'll cover this in the next chapter. You can attempt to kill the VQ in actual combat, which can be rather difficult, or you can try to kill it OUT of combat, which can be easier: The VQ is a physically fragile chassis without its buffing spells.

Killing it in combat can be done either by rushing, as the VQ is a poor fighter without its buffing spells up, or by targetting its weaknesses and using anti-SC spells: As undead, they're susceptible to accurate anti-undead spells like Solar Rays, which can be cast either by your mages, or by herald lancers. Drain life and petrify are other good choices: Drain life will inflict 100-precision damage upon the VQ, and fatigue it at the same time: As the VQ flies, it will invariably outrun most chaff and be in front, and thus be targetted first. Petrify instantly paralyzes any target and cannot be resisted. Once paralyzed, you can put it down with either attacks from units that can survive its damage shields, point-blank arrowing or bolting from archers, preferrably with fire arrows, or with more drain lifes.

Alternatively, you could just rush it in a dogpile of fliers: As the VQ is a flying creature, it can be specifically targetted through the use of "Attack fliers". If you are on defense, your fliers will immediately launch to attack, before the VQ has an opportunity to even cast anything: It'll have maybe 50-odd hitpoints, only a mediocre defense skill, and its only real defense will be etherealness, that you can counter with either flying, fire-9 blessed troops which will tear apart any VQ that doesn't have fire immunity, Caelumian ice lances, or brute force.

All of these methods will allow you to put a VQ down in combat at little loss: At least one of them will be available to most nations, either via summoning, boosting by items, or national troops + a bless strategy.

You may also try to kill it OUT of combat. This option may be available to you if you are attacked and your army is not adequately prepared and gets destroyed: The VQ will be sitting in enemy dominion, and can thus be killed: Fire a barrage of seeking arrows or other assassination spells that do NOT involve combats. The VQ is a fragile chassis, with a mere 23 base HP, and unless it arrived from strong enemy dominion, will not be too high above this: A hail of seeking arrows stands a good chance of putting it down for real. Even if it is armored, seeking arrows inflict armor-piercing damage. If it's wearing robes of missile protection, it won't be as susceptible to Seeking Arrows, but you can use a different spell, such as Fires from Afar, or simply compensate by using enough arrows to overwhelm even that.

The alternative strategy is that you strike only in one place, always accompanied by a kill team, either your own SC, as many pretender chassis are more physically powerful, and when also tweaked for battle, will easily defeat a VQ in single combat. If your chosen chassis flies, this will make singling out the VQ for duelling easier, as you can attack fliers yourself. If your SC has a shorter buffing sequence, you also can catch the enemy before it has finished deploying its own defenses.

Even if you constantly fight in enemy dominion, and as a result, the enemy constantly respawns, this does not matter: He will simply be defeated over and over, forced back to the capitol, and continually lose ground. Of course, once YOU control the castle, build your own temple there and wipe out his dominion, so he won't be able to annoy you there anymore. Remember: The objective of this approach is to take ground, hold it, and replace the enemy dominion with yours to assimilate the territory. If you can take his capitol in such a manner, you've put an end to the problem.

Please note: if the enemy VQ is repeatedly thrashing you without you even KILLING it, then you have far, FAR bigger problems! Your complete and utter failure to even HARM an ethereal, well-equipped SC chassis is *NOT* a problem of the VQ: The Ghost King is very much similar, has a superior base def which would make hitting it even HARDER, and if you are NOT KILLING YOUR OPPONENT, the fact that his chassis is a VQ and immortal is NOT at fault. If you can kill these kinds of SCs reliably, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality and endless respawns or not. If it respawns and comes at you again, it will die again. If you cannot kill them however, then you have bigger problems, and the fact that the enemy is immortal simply won't come into play: If the game ends with the VQ having a flawless death record, having never even USED the immortality....then YOU HAVE FAILED.

[ May 05, 2004, 07:33: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[sergex]

Well, part of your VQ strategy must involve conquering her domain. Start off with as high a domain as possible (8-10). Restless Worshipers. Sceptics, Monks, Stealthy Prophet, etc, to lower her domain in her own provinces. Preach like crazy all over the place, build juggernauts, stone idols on scouts, whatever you can do to mess up her domain.

Only then can you begin the work of ridding the world of her (for at least a couple turns). Make her route and have no provinces for her retreat to. Send in many, many seeking arrows into the province she is in. Earth Attack and send horrors.

To deal with actual combat with her? First of all, use a unit that is immune to lifetap. Undead units work well. Banelords, Wraithlords. Then gear them up, get them exp to raise their stats. Give them Astral Shields, Fire shields, Elf Banes, Mage Banes, anti-undead weapons.

There are many ways to skin the cat, but none of them come in the early game, and unless you control the domain of the game then all you are doing is trading your gems and income to make it return to its home province.

[Daynarr]

Fire 9 blessing is good counter (as mentioned by Norfleet) against VQ. Most nations have enough affordable holy troops that can be blessed to do fire damage that will ignore her etherealness and protection.

For example, Moloch is both great SC chassis and counter for VQ due to his blessing effect. You can equip with pair of armor negating/piercing weapons and, if you can afford, pendant of luck and/or boots of speed and tell him to attack fliers. He will engage VQ on turn one and should be able to kill her before she buffs her self (unless you are extremely unlucky).

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by sergex:
Well, part of your VQ strategy must involve conquering her domain. Start off with as high a domain as possible (8-10). Restless Worshipers. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Restless Worshipers may not be a good idea, since it involves Turmoil scale. Turmoil=bad for business. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Pirateiam]

Thanks guys so far for the feedback. I have a 2 human SP game set up where I am trying different tactics to Kill the VQ. So far I have had little success with Herald Lances. 10 scouts with Herald Lances did not even scratch her and I tried this 4 times. I think the flying dog pile before she is buffed is more viable.

I like the idea of jacking the capital. Can anyone give some ideas on how to jack the capital. Once you have Ermor's capital she has to come to you.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Fire 9 blessing is good counter (as mentioned by Norfleet) against VQ. Most nations have enough affordable holy troops that can be blessed to do fire damage that will ignore her etherealness and protection.

For example, Moloch is both great SC chassis and counter for VQ due to his blessing effect. You can equip with pair of armor negating/piercing weapons and, if you can afford, pendant of luck and/or boots of speed and tell him to attack fliers. He will engage VQ on turn one and should be able to kill her before she buffs her self (unless you are extremely unlucky). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So in essence, players that dont want to take a VQ in MP should use a fire 9 blessing strategy as this is the cheapest counter (the one which dont ask for half your gold and gem income just to repel the VQ)?
Dominions is in bad shape today http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Pirateiam]

Please Pocus. I only want this thread to be a list of possible counters. Debates can be done on other threads. Please no opinions just ideas.

[peasant]

Hmm, dominion push seems the most "Sun Tzu" method.

Maybe someone like Man, following a cheap temple/castle strategy?

[sergex]

A man watch tower/temple push could do well and then when you reach the VQ's dominion send in lots of monks to preach it away. That's something you can do early game.

Fire-9 Blessing with sacred units is also a good counter to pretty much every unit in the game. Can you think of a single unit that can survive many Fire-9 sacreds?

[Tuna-Fish]

Dust to dust, 22 armour negating damage with no mr roll. Hit twice and it's over. Simple?

Putting dust to dusters in one pile with fodder all around might be a good idea. Fodder should be lifeless, so no regaining strenght. Having the death squad in as far in the back is a good idea, so the only target they got is the VQ that jumps very close to them to bash their fodder, so they dont have much chances of missing. Because the VQ will most probably have luck, you need to hit at least 4 times to kill it. That's not really that hard when it's 4-5 squares away.

[Humer]

Originally posted by peasant:
Hmm, dominion push seems the most "Sun Tzu" method.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Add scouts with Stone Idols (Con-6 2E2S) to recipe and it's a bit more effective.

- Humer

[Yossar]

Originally posted by sergex:
Fire-9 Blessing with sacred units is also a good counter to pretty much every unit in the game. Can you think of a single unit that can survive many Fire-9 sacreds? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Anything fire immune?

[Daynarr]

Basically any flying commander (or pretender) or group of commanders can take out VQ if you equip them with cheap armor negating/piercing magical weapons. The whole idea is to strike at VQ on first turn before she buffs herself.

Another way is to use lots of lifeless summons (or units if you can buy them) that she can't drain. After VQ casts buffs, she will have pretty high fatigue - use that to swarm her with lifeless army. Of course, this is not doable at the very start.

Another good pretender to take out VQ is Virtue. She already comes with weapon for the job so you need only to equip her with couple of cheap items (like pendant of luck), have her attack fliers or cast mistform then to attack fliers.

[Pocus]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
Please Pocus. I only want this thread to be a list of possible counters. Debates can be done on other threads. Please no opinions just ideas. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I dont want to cripple this thread, just to point out the counter which are more theorical than anything else. If somebody says: 'look its simple, just kill the VQ dominions', then its a theorical counter. I can say: 'look you simply have to win and crush your enemy utterly', it would do the same good (or lack of) for this thread...

More generally, if I have to take into account into my god creation design plan that I can encounter a VQ, and that it forbids many choices, then it shows a significant game inbalance.

[ May 05, 2004, 11:54: Message edited by: Pocus ]

[Pirateiam]

Again thanks for the input keep it comming.

I have a game set up so I can keep trying different units against the VQ with Death 3, Water 2, earth 2, air 4, fire 2,
script - quickness, mirror image, mistform, breath of winter, ironskin.

I have been trying to find a early to midgame unit (not a god) that can reliably take a Buffed VQ down. I think I have found it and I would like your opinions. I ran this unit 10 times against her and he was 10-0 straight up, against a completely buffed VQ 4 star experienced (I held for two turns why she buffed) it was 7-3. I have not even optimized it either. This is what it was:

1 Crusher with Gift of reason
flying boots
flambeau
red pearl
BS Helmet
Anti-magic amulet

This can be optimized better and with two she would have no chance.

I am now trying some variations and also I am adding some trinkets to the VQ to test it against.

[Endoperez]

Just Man's Cross: magical crossbow (= negates etherealness) giving undead three times the normal crossbow damage. Can be put to "Fire Fliers". You do need some commanders with good aim, though, but scouts aren't too bad I think.
I haven't tested it, but IIRC it was used to counter Ice Devils in Dominions 1 where they were unlimited in number.

[Gandalf Parker]

This conversation is going well. To get the devs attention it is best to give specific examples and avoid declaring something completely broke.

As for me, Im not the type to meet a strong opponent head-on. There will always be some great god Version, but I dont look for another god to counter it. Actually there are alot of very nasty opponents in this game (try giving the AI a King of the World Doom Horror). The name of the game is dominions and that would be my strategy in this case. Avoid the one-man-army by creating many small armys. Strike by surprise in far corners and build from those spots. If the MegaKiller goes there then be ready to do the same in 2 or 3 other spots on the map. Lots of temples and cheap castles.

Some of my favorite nations would do this well. I would think Marignon would have already been considered for the same reasons they often come up in resonse to Ermor. Priests and Fire. Caelum could do damage with fast flying sneak priests.

Man and Pangaea would seem automatic also. Sneak and cheap (1/2 cost) temples. I would defeintely use magic crossbows. Knock her magic out fast.

[ May 05, 2004, 13:35: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Saxon]

Does Smite or Smite Demon, coming from powerful priests, cut through her defenses? Sorry, I have been away and have not followed the entire debate. Similarly, if she is undead, why can’t a swarm of priests take her down? Does her drain life really counter the effects of 20 priests banishing at once? Throw in some eyes of accuracy to lift the effects.

I ran a search on vq smite and vampire queen smite and got nothing, sorry if I am going over already covered ground.

Throw in some flying units to disturb her from the first turn, as well as a second wave of them who were on hold and attack. They may not kill her, but they will keep her busy and unbuffed for perhaps four turns. Having the second wave means even fairly weak units would be helpful. Also, you can buff your flying mage/crusher for two or three turns and then have them arrive to wreak havoc.

Have some crossbows up front, they should get at least two shots this way while the weak flying units annoy her. Flaming arrows could boost this. Similarly, spells like dust to dust may get through the MR if you get enough tries.

If the banishment is hitting her during this period where she is wrestling with annoying flying units, it might be a cheap and low level solution. It also works well with the dominion attacks others have mentioned. If you want to preach her out, you need lots of priests. Concentrate them at the right place and you can get her, as well as leaving a trail of provinces with friendly dominion.

Sure, it may sound like a lot of fairly weak things, but if you can stop the buffing and hit her with a number of things, she is going to have a bad day.

Also, what is the spell that summons a hoard of undead archers that fire flaming arrows? They seem suited to this task.

[PhilD]

Not an expert by any means, but Staff of Storms should keep the VQ walking all across the battlefield. If you have any kind of long-range, high-precision spells, you might get her before she comes through the (preferably undead) fodder around your mages.

The Staff of Storms is also a pretty good item by itself, so it's not like it's a wasted investment.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Tuna-Fish:
Dust to dust, 22 armour negating damage with no mr roll. Hit twice and it's over. Simple?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's nice in theory, but doesn't work in practice. Your mages refuse to cast dust to dust when there are friendly undead in the area, and are much more likely to animate dead if there aren't.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Another way is to use lots of lifeless summons (or units if you can buy them) that she can't drain. After VQ casts buffs, she will have pretty high fatigue - use that to swarm her with lifeless army. Of course, this is not doable at the very start.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's very unlikely that longdead will be able to do enough damage to her to get through a protection of 20-30, especially if she has a fireshield.

[Gandalf Parker]

Im just wondering but has anyone run a --superhost game looping thru the turns to see if the VQ actually wins the game? It would provide some unbiased hard numbers. Probably small fast games are covered but do we have an idea about larger long-running games with all the races in it?

[ May 05, 2004, 15:50: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[archaeolept]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Daynarr:
Another way is to use lots of lifeless summons (or units if you can buy them) that she can't drain. After VQ casts buffs, she will have pretty high fatigue - use that to swarm her with lifeless army. Of course, this is not doable at the very start.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's very unlikely that longdead will be able to do enough damage to her to get through a protection of 20-30, especially if she has a fireshield. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah, and you're lucky if that's all she has. Armor of 30+ would be standard in the full strat by the midgame. defense the same, + fireshield, and, of course, the 5+ mirror images and mistform. I really doubt that masses of fodder undead could do anything to her, though I may be wrong. She is flying, and is likely attacking the rear as well...

as far as counters, other than trying to mimick the VQ formula itself, I take Marignon w/ a Baphomet F9 S9 blessing, and create hordes of flaming fate-twisted flagellants. that works, but is not exactly generally applicable.

[ May 05, 2004, 16:10: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PhilD:
Not an expert by any means, but Staff of Storms should keep the VQ walking all across the battlefield. If you have any kind of long-range, high-precision spells, you might get her before she comes through the (preferably undead) fodder around your mages.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Preventing the VQ from flying can actually be counterproductive, since then it will not immediately outrun its fodder and present itself as a target for your mages. I'm not saying you should NEVER ground it, but be aware that doing so CAN be counterproductive.

[PvK]

Other ideas:

Blindness

Paralysis

Black Bow of Betulf

the missile weapon that kills in one shot

capturing her home castle

unliving summons

outnumbering with own summoned Vampire Lords

Liches and Bog Mummies can do similar things, perhaps better when they have high built-in protection, which can be harder to counter than etherealness

magic weapons (bypass ethereal)

Death summons (several relatively cheap and skilled warriors available with magic weapons included and no life for VQ to drain)

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by PvK:
Other ideas:
Blindness<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Blindness works off of MR, so is unlikely to stick. Even if it does, it will probably heal within a turn or two. I wouldn't count this as a good counter for any SC, though, due to the difficulty of sticking any MR-based spell on a god chassis.

Paralysis<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While not quite as overpowering as it once was, due to the fact that it's no longer permanent, Petrify provides a means of applying irresistable paralysis to anything. It's much easier to put down an SC when it can't move. It helps that the targetting AI is will preferentially target the flying, in-your-face VQ here.

Black Bow of Betulf<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Too much of a long shot: The multiple mirror images and/or air shielding of a buffed up SC will make it difficult for an archer firing a single arrow, even with high precision, to successfully hit. If successful, however, this can certainly be supremely annoying, as it may take several turns to be rid that feeblemindedness, during which the VQ will be mostly useless.

the missile weapon that kills in one shot<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">MR negates. See problems above with anything strictly MR-based.

capturing her home castle<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This will certainly put an end to the problem, in conjunction with a strategy to put the VQ down in or out of battle.

unliving summons<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good as part of a one-two punch.

outnumbering with own summoned Vampire Lords<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This can work: The lifedraining attacks will affect and fatigue out the VQ, and it appears that lifedrain may still inflict fatigue damage even when it fails to cause physical damage due to protection. It helps that one of you is also immortal. In YOUR dominion, the sheer crush of hundreds of vampires may very well be enough to stop the VQ in its tracks, simply because with all damage shields only of minimal value against the vampires, even if the VQ is powerful enough to slay them with impunity, they won't actually STAY dead, and it will be impossible to kill them all within the 50 turns alotted to you for a battle. Thus, strategically, the VQ always loses this.

Liches and Bog Mummies can do similar things, perhaps better when they have high built-in protection, which can be harder to counter than etherealness<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A lich can certainly be tweaked effectively for battle, and his higher base protection will negate the need for ironskin, so he can Body Eth himself in place of ironskin. He also has the benefit of having innate D3, and thus doesn't have wasted blood magic.

magic weapons (bypass ethereal)<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Always a helpful option for dealing with any ethereal SC, VQ or not.

Death summons (several relatively cheap and skilled warriors available with magic weapons included and no life for VQ to drain) <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wights, perhaps. VQs tend to do more poorly against undead for the loss of all life-draining options, and the fact that most undead are not susceptible to mass damage shields like BoW or Soul Vortex. Simply burying your opponent under a deluge of them is often adequate to attain strategic victory.

[ May 05, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Daynarr:
Another way is to use lots of lifeless summons (or units if you can buy them) that she can't drain. After VQ casts buffs, she will have pretty high fatigue - use that to swarm her with lifeless army. Of course, this is not doable at the very start.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's very unlikely that longdead will be able to do enough damage to her to get through a protection of 20-30, especially if she has a fireshield. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah, and you're lucky if that's all she has. Armor of 30+ would be standard in the full strat by the midgame. defense the same, + fireshield, and, of course, the 5+ mirror images and mistform. I really doubt that masses of fodder undead could do anything to her, though I may be wrong. She is flying, and is likely attacking the rear as well...

as far as counters, other than trying to mimick the VQ formula itself, I take Marignon w/ a Baphomet F9 S9 blessing, and create hordes of flaming fate-twisted flagellants. that works, but is not exactly generally applicable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I said lifeless not longdead units. You know, clayman, crushers, wights and such who have a significant number of HP and good attack. VQ defense is not very great and these units will penetrate it often enough to make a difference. Bunch of crappy longdead are not good to handle any SC. A nation with good death magic and gem income has a variety of summons to choose to counter VQ.

Shades are another good and cheap way to get her. Cheap summons with magical weapons and boots of flying should do the job. Being stealthy allows them to surprise attack VQ or hunt her down without her knowing where the danger is.

Basically any SC with boots of flying can kill her.

[Taqwus]

Wights are a bit late, aren't they? Unless there's an earlier Wight summons than Legion of Wights?
Perhaps Weapons of Sharpness should grant the 'magic' flag, unless it already does.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by PvK:
Other ideas:
Blindness<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Blindness works off of MR, so is unlikely to stick. Even if it does, it will probably heal within a turn or two. I wouldn't count this as a good counter for any SC, though, due to the difficulty of sticking any MR-based spell on a god chassis.
... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It can be part of a combination of counter-tactics. If it sticks, the VQ becomes rather less effective. It's also a Fire-1 spell which isn't terribly hard to reach (and a certain nation starts with the spell pre-researched and has cheap Fire-1 mages). If you do have cheap fire-1 mages (and there is at least one random site which provides these), then it may be a pretty cheap thing to try.

Same thinking on the missile weapons - ya they may miss or be resisted, but they are cheap to produce and use.

Curse is of course also a good idea, since the VQ will probably have to be fought more than once.

The "dominion switch" trap I think sounds like a good technique, too. I'm not sure it does, but it seems like it should. I seem to recall some months ago, someone with an immortal griping about attacking a province with their dominion, only to die and find that fluctuations in dominion had caused their dominion to leave. Also, all other strategic actions I know of seem to occur before combat. So, I think attracting VQ's to areas in their dominion, where you have a bunch of priests preaching (and whatever else you may have - Black Priests, Inquisitors, blood sacrifice, Skeptics, false idols...) to remove her dominion just before she arrives. VQ-slayers move in on the same turn (and perhaps the living non-priest bait moves out).

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Wights are a bit late, aren't they? Unless there's an earlier Wight summons than Legion of Wights?
... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes there is. Try Revive Wight under Conjuration-3, and costs 5 death gems, requiring Death-2.

And/or Revive Bane - same requirements, but 8 death gems for an even better unit which is a leader with full slots.

Early stuff, and looks pretty cheap and threatenning to VQ's, to me. Undead, no fatigue, no soul to vortex, almost no fear, immune to cold, magic weapon to ignore etherealness, nice combat skills and armor.

It just gets better at somewhat higher levels too - bane lords, spectres, and eventually... well, I think some of the level-7 conjuration summons look scarier than a VQ. Wraith Lord has very similar abilities, but is also a bad-*** fighter. At that point, one can match or better the VQ for 40 death gems. You need to survive to Conj-7 though.

PvK

[ May 05, 2004, 20:42: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Blitz]

Wights are one of my favorite units anyway, especially with Jotenhiem. That, or just go with Ice Devils (Blood 5? BBBWWW) and you get your own SC. Two or Three of those with winged boots. Quickness and go. I basicly shoot for them anyways, might as well use them against the VQ.

As for your own SC?

Put the Wight Blades away and get some Herald Lances Give someone a Totem Shield. Eye Shields will blind her. The Harvest Blade (artifact, BBBN hits automaticaly) will take off her legs, while Picus's Axe of Rulership (artifact, DDE) will do the same for her arms.

Something I haven't tried but probably isn't a bad idea...

Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

Lastly, if you are in the real lategame any naked VQ won't stand a chance against a few iron dragons.

Of course she'll be back next turn, but I never said there weren't counters.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.

The fact that it's magic movement, means all you have to do is know where she is.

However, I haven't used them much... so I'm not sure how powerful it is... I remember not being terribly impressed, but then I didn't use them to fight undead... and it costs 50 Astral, which is little much to chain cast.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats one of the reasons I thought the VA was more of a small-map fast-game problem. There are all kinds of interesting things far up the research ladder. I dont tend to play many games that far so I couldnt remember any specifically

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats one of the reasons I thought the VA was more of a small-map fast-game problem. There are all kinds of interesting things far up the research ladder. I dont tend to play many games that far so I couldnt remember any specifically </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't tested it fully, only pulled out a game where I could cast it and checked their stats... but that quick check seems to indicate that it would work pretty well. While the angels stats aren't all that great...

1) The Archangel leaders are Lvl 4 Priests
2) Angels fly (no chance for VQ buffing)
3) They are equiped with a magic weapon that does (13+13)x3 AP damage to undead
4) You can summon them to any province
5) The spell uses magic movement, so unless she uses teleport or something, you know that you will catch her
6) They stick around after the battle

I would guess that knowing where the VQ is, you could say: cast it 3 times in one turn(3 Priests and 18 angels) on that province, and come away with 0 casualties and a temporarily dead VQ.

If she had chaff with her, that would be problematic, as you can't give the angels orders ahead of time...

And I'm not sure how well it would work with a fully decked out VQ... but the only real defense I see, would be a (heh) high defense... which isn't that easy for a VQ.

AND you need several Astral 5 mages, 50 Astral gems for each casting, as well as Conj 7...

Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?

[ May 05, 2004, 22:49: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

[Blitz]

Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The fatal flaw is you are down 50 astral pearls, probably an angel or two and the VQ loses... a battle. Maybe a province. There's no reason for that VQ not to charge back into that same province the very next turn, regardless of how futile the odds seem to be against winning.

Furthermore, I have my doubts as to if the strategy works. Maybe I'll test it out and see.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Blitz:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The fatal flaw is you are down 50 astral pearls, probably an angel or two and the VQ loses... a battle. Maybe a province. There's no reason for that VQ not to charge back into that same province the very next turn, regardless of how futile the odds seem to be against winning.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my games getting back to the same province would take awhile, even for a flyer. And those can be precious moments since I tend to play nations where I would have an army on the way to her capital.

Meanwhile my angels would be getting ahead of the game claiming the neighboring provinces. True its not a 1-on-1 win, more of a wear-down tactic. But it sounds like a good one.

[archaeolept]

well, the fatal flaw is that she is in a castle.

in fact, of course, all the VQ's provinces are castled in the total strat, so hit and run tactics are unlikely to accomplish much, other than perhaps draw down a few ghostriders or some such.

now, if you manage to actually stop the dominion push, well, then the VQ isn't that much of a threat anyways since she is very unlikely to be sent out of her dominion, except perhaps w/ an exceptionally powerful army.

now, if I have pearls, I tend to buy lots of angelic hosts, esp. as I usually have some sort of bless effect going. but they've never actually managed to bump into a VQ yet. They are fairly weak units, as well, and I think you'ld need a few squads to take down a kitted up VQ; if somehow you managed to find her hanging out in the open ground.

[ May 05, 2004, 23:05: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Blitz:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The fatal flaw is you are down 50 astral pearls, probably an angel or two and the VQ loses... a battle. Maybe a province. There's no reason for that VQ not to charge back into that same province the very next turn, regardless of how futile the odds seem to be against winning.

Furthermore, I have my doubts as to if the strategy works. Maybe I'll test it out and see. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well that's why I would say you need to cast it several times on the same province... to keep casualties down... ideally you'd have her completely surrounded with flambeau weiding divine entities... I can't concieve of a way that a naked VQ could survive more than a turn or two in that.

And I'm not sure what equipment she could wear that would really help her... anything that raises her defense... but how many (13+13)x3 AP damage hits do you really need? 2? Boots of Quickness maybe, so she can throw up two buffs before she is surrounded... but a Charcoal Shield isn't that impressive against angels since thay are fire resistant(50)... if she had a decent weapon, she could certainly take down an Angel or two... but naked life drain isn't going to save her.

Oh, and they're SACRED... so if you have a decent bless, watch out!

Yeah, it's a lot of Astral pearls... but they don't go away, you'll still have them to beat her down again... but now you'll be able to script those Holy 4/Fire 3 Archangels...

The main problem I see would be dealing with "chaff"... which obviously needs to be examined.

[Pirateiam]

I currently have a game set up where I can pretty much try any non nation specific unit up against a VQ with any possible buffs or items. I have tested many units and combinations. So far my GoR'd Crusher has done well. Also devil dog piles work well also. One strategy that I have scrapped all together is any kind of missle units. I have tried multiple combinations of missle units and they just do not even scratch her. Even a 20 commander team with eye of aiming, justmans crossbows, quick boots etc could barely scratch her in 10 tries. If anyone has a combination of units to try against her let me know. I will try the Arch angels next and let you know how they fair in 10 attacks.

[Blitz]

Wow. Very impressive.

Even in +10 emor dominion, the angels wrecked her before she could buff. I had a few problems getting the angels to attack the right undead though. Even when Emor dosen't bring armies, there are usually a few skeletons lying around. While the angels kill any undead they swing at, they also get their asses handed to them in 1-2 hits even by skeletons. Without trying it, I imagine two Groups of them would be sufficient to take out a NAKED vq. This VQ had 0 experience, and only quickness, invuln, mistform, soul vortex, and breath of winter.

A non-naked VQ on the other hand is another matter entirely. What's the standard build for a tricked VQ these days?

Wraith Sword
Starshine Skullcap
Elemental Armor
Boots of the Messenger
Amulet of Magic Resistance
Pendant of Luck

I'll see how she does in all that. Get back to yas.

[Norfleet]

If you want to make sure the angels get the right target, you may not want to just summondrop them on your target if there's a lot of clutter there: If you order them to attack fliers, on the other hand, they'll nearly always get their victim, because as the lone flier of the Ermorian horde, the VQ will be singled out for death by anyone told to attack fliers.

[Blitz]

I currently have a game set up where I can pretty much try any non nation specific unit up against a VQ with any possible buffs or items. I have tested many units and combinations. So far my GoR'd Crusher has done well. Also devil dog piles work well also. One strategy that I have scrapped all together is any kind of missle units. I have tried multiple combinations of missle units and they just do not even scratch her. Even a 20 commander team with eye of aiming, justmans crossbows, quick boots etc could barely scratch her in 10 tries. If anyone has a combination of units to try against her let me know. I will try the Arch angels next and let you know how they fair in 10 attacks. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Make sure you have her in +10 domain. Makes a HUGE difference.

If you want to make sure the angels get the right target, you may not want to just summondrop them on your target if there's a lot of clutter there: If you order them to attack fliers, on the other hand, they'll nearly always get their victim, because as the lone flier of the Ermorian horde, the VQ will be singled out for death by anyone told to attack fliers <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ever lost a VQ to angels Norfleet? Could save us a lot of simulating if you had a nice story to share

[ May 05, 2004, 23:32: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Wow. Very impressive.

Even in +10 emor dominion, the angels wrecked her before she could buff. I had a few problems getting the angels to attack the right undead though. Even when Emor dosen't bring armies, there are usually a few skeletons lying around. While the angels kill any undead they swing at, they also get their asses handed to them in 1-2 hits even by skeletons. Without trying it, I imagine two Groups of them would be sufficient to take out a NAKED vq. This VQ had 0 experience, and only quickness, invuln, mistform, soul vortex, and breath of winter.

A non-naked VQ on the other hand is another matter entirely. What's the standard build for a tricked VQ these days?

Wraith Sword
Starshine Skullcap
Elemental Armor
Boots of the Messenger
Amulet of Magic Resistance
Pendant of Luck

I'll see how she does in all that. Get back to yas. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice! I am actually having fun doing this, it is like running a test lab. Blitz is it possible to run your test multiple times? I use the Clash of titans map and I am on turn 289 lol I have something like 220 clams hehe.

Also has anyone come up with any Capital Jacking ideas? Because to make the hit squad tactic work you must also jack the Ermor Capital at the same time.

[Pirateiam]

Make sure you have her in +10 domain. Makes a HUGE difference.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah I allway keep her in at least a +8 dominion. My problem is she has so much experience now that I think it is starting to effect my results.

[Blitz]

Nice! I am actually having fun doing this, it is like running a test lab. Blitz is it possible to run your test multiple times? I use the Clash of titans map and I am on turn 289 lol I have something like 220 clams hehe.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not really. I just started a game as Arcoscopile and made a zillion philosophers, switched sides and made a zillion researchers for Emor.

Once I got to 7 on both sides, I had just enough pearls for one fight. One side note - the Arcoscophile research machine easily doubled Emor.

"A philosopher a day keeps the VQ away"

[IKerensky]

All thoses counter against VQ is nice but, cna I ask a question :

- What did your opponent do with your counter AND his VQ ?


Wich I mean someone suggest 3 Host for angels ( i.e CONJ 7 , 150 Astral gems and 5 Astral 5 caster ).

So in front of you you will have : 15 angels, 3 archangels AND the VQ ! I guess to evaluate the value of a counter you have to think that your opponent will have the same basic gear than you. We can even suppose you develop at the same speed, research at the same speed and gems at the same speed.

So in fact we are back to the real difference: your pretender vs his VQ, your nation vs his.

I am unsure VQ is so much over/under-valuated, what I think is that examinating counters isn't really going anywhere if you keep on devicing a way to kill the VQ, or the be more precise to kill one of THE VQs, as the problem people suggest is having 3-5 VQs in the same game.

I think we need to concentrate on strategies that could win the game AND be able to counter an ethereal immortal flying opponent.

Perhaps a list of things for each nation in fact.

Also it is clear the real thing that need to be countered is the rampant temple-castle dominion crush that support the VQ and seems to render it much more powerfull...

But this answer my first question as to where was gone all the ressources you used to counter it : they were burn in castle, temple and priest...

Also the VQ being a pretender it generate his own dominion, add her a sneaking flying prophet, with some tools and I have a hard time envisioning where she will fight out of his own dominion...

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Ever lost a VQ to angels Norfleet? Could save us a lot of simulating if you had a nice story to share <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only to the AI as a clueless newbie. I've never seen a human player attempt to use Angelic Host in such a manner, and knowing what they were like, I never attempted to pit my VQ against them, for precisely that reason. However, they are kind of a pricey, overly situational solution to the problem, and I tend to favor solutions that are either more spontaneously available, or generally applicable.

The solutions I've proposed are also often derived based on general counters to spell-buffed SCs: As such, they aren't necessarily VQ-specific.

It should also be noted that a mostly unequipped VQ is the primary target: If you're facing a heavily equipped VQ, it's losing a lot of distinction for what makes it a VQ at all, as it is no longer entirely expendable, as losing the entire suit of equipment can get expensive, and thus the VQ player will not senselessly commit a VQ to a battle doesn't expect to win. As long as you have kill teams that can pick out a VQ from most varieties of chaff and put it down with minimal losses, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality or no.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Blitz:
Ever lost a VQ to angels Norfleet? Could save us a lot of simulating if you had a nice story to share <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only to the AI as a clueless newbie. I've never seen a human player attempt to use Angelic Host in such a manner, and knowing what they were like, I never attempted to pit my VQ against them, for precisely that reason. However, they are kind of a pricey, overly situational solution to the problem, and I tend to favor solutions that are either more spontaneously available, or generally applicable.

The solutions I've proposed are also often derived based on general counters to spell-buffed SCs: As such, they aren't necessarily VQ-specific.

It should also be noted that a mostly unequipped VQ is the primary target: If you're facing a heavily equipped VQ, it's losing a lot of distinction for what makes it a VQ at all, as it is no longer entirely expendable, as losing the entire suit of equipment can get expensive, and thus the VQ player will not senselessly commit a VQ to a battle doesn't expect to win. As long as you have kill teams that can pick out a VQ from most varieties of chaff and put it down with minimal losses, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality or no. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are pricey... no way around that... and the most economically viable way to use them seems, ironically, to be spend more by summoning several Hosts... and keeping them together to increase their power.

But they're far from useless against the "non-undead"... that Awe(+4) that each angel has, is actually a pretty snazzy defense. Any normal morale unit stands a pretty high chance of not being able to attack the angel... I was suprised at how many "christmas lights" I saw in my merely basic tests.

Even with chaff issues... staking the VQ to a protective army already seems like a bit of a victory, because she no longer has the flight ability at her disposal... and thus is much more predictable. The Angelic Host caster, could similarly put chaff with his angels... though whether this would be a net gain is debatable.

To respond to your earlier point of:
If you want to make sure the angels get the right target, you may not want to just summondrop them on your target if there's a lot of clutter there: If you order them to attack fliers, on the other hand, they'll nearly always get their victim, because as the lone flier of the Ermorian horde, the VQ will be singled out for death by anyone told to attack fliers.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is obviously a superior way to go in many ways. However, my idea was merely catching an overconfident VQ out causing turmoil by suprise...

The reality is, that non-Ermorian VQ's (there can be only one) are what most of us "non-expert" players will be facing in the coming months... I think this thread is useful mainly in dispensing with some of the fear/awe that a VQ has started to engender.

[Gandalf Parker]

you know you can edit something like the mini map to put agelic hosts in a provice, set the scales, assign a VQ with your choice of eq, and then start a game over and over. it gives everything but research. Come to think of it you can assign researched spells.

Or if I really wanted alot research I think Id use the superhost switch to leave the game running in a loop while I eat lunch

[alexti]

What will happen if you attack VQ with a couple of Golems (or similar units) equipped with eye shields? If they can blind her, they can probably kill her afterwards as well. Additional benefit is that it would take VQ few turns to recover from that even though she is immportal.

Another option is to send few flying/teleporting SCs who are ready to fight right away (without wasting time on any buffs). Preferrably el-cheapo SCs.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I am thinking about another idea but someone needs to answer this question. Here is the scenario: Lets say you kill the VQ (in her Domain) but on the same turn begin sieging her capital. Does she rematerialize inside the capital castle, even if it is being seiged? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.)

[Gateway103]

Regarding the Angelic Hosts, in my experience, they are fairly good against undead as well as living creatures (Harbinger's AOE 5 attack in principle should work well too, but 6 units is better than 1, at least for the price difference I think, research not factored in). However, I have found them to be most vulnerable right out of summoning, as you aren't able to script or give equipment to them.

So instead of using their Flambeaus, the Angels just sit in the back casting buff/blessing spells, and some offensive spells without much success (due to long range), while her 6 Hosts engage enemy ranks. This is fine for small enemy oppositions, but when facing larger crowds, the Hosts would likely die and/or retreat, as they aren't etheral or high def/prot, thus forcing the Angel to retreat too.

However, if you summon them in nearby provinces (free from attack and preferrably with a Lab), script them and equip them if you can, before sending them to battles, then the success rate and survival rate is much improved.

Of course, if you are trying to kill a SC, you don't need much script, since the goal is to catch them before they buff up. But equipment always help a bit. Afterall, if you are already investing a hefty price of 50 Astral Pearls into the summoning, why not make them more effective, and prolong their use as you would with Bane/Wraith Lord, and other summonable mini-SCs.

From my experience, with moderate equipment (Cons 4 stuff mostly) and some buffing, a lone Angel can function like mini-SCs similar to equipped Bane Lords, and in some ways better due to her magics and flying ability.

Just some observations,

-Gateway103

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? It works even without having to actually take the capitol by storm? It's a lot easier than I thought, then, since then all you have to do is drop enough crap on the capitol to punch through any patrollers and PD.....

[archaeolept]

i've killed a VQ in the province outside the castle, only to fight her that same turn when my assault was resolved.

so i'm not completely sure what's up. I would have thought she always pops back, but caine seems to have experience to the contrary.

[ May 06, 2004, 03:36: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by alexti:
What will happen if you attack VQ with a couple of Golems (or similar units) equipped with eye shields? If they can blind her, they can probably kill her afterwards as well. Additional benefit is that it would take VQ few turns to recover from that even though she is immportal.

Another option is to send few flying/teleporting SCs who are ready to fight right away (without wasting time on any buffs). Preferrably el-cheapo SCs. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Early in the post I gave an example of fail safe unit that disposes of the VQ.

Golem with flying boots, flamnbeau, BS Helmut, red pearl, luck pend.

I have tested it extensively - never has lost to a VQ 1v1 - she gets nailed before she buffs. I have let her buff and it is 60% kill success rate. With VQ with misc army things change but I know I would send more the one on a strike anyways? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2 to trample chaff 2 to hit the queen works quit nicely.

What seems interesting is that there are other successful units that work so it does not exclude nations.

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I am thinking about another idea but someone needs to answer this question. Here is the scenario: Lets say you kill the VQ (in her Domain) but on the same turn begin sieging her capital. Does she rematerialize inside the capital castle, even if it is being seiged? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This could be the stake in the heart we are looking for. Kill the queen and jack the capital. Well only one way to verify....Be back in little while....

[Kel]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
[QUOTE]I have tested it extensively - never has lost to a VQ 1v1 - she gets nailed before she buffs. I have let her buff and it is 60% kill success rate. With VQ with misc army things change but I know I would send more the one on a strike anyways? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2 to trample chaff 2 to hit the queen works quit nicely.

What seems interesting is that there are other successful units that work so it does not exclude nations. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just curious, how does it work out if she has cheapo equipment ? Probably use stuff that is cheap but up to the same level as golems.

- Kel

[ May 06, 2004, 04:48: Message edited by: Kel ]

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Cainehill:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I am thinking about another idea but someone needs to answer this question. Here is the scenario: Lets say you kill the VQ (in her Domain) but on the same turn begin sieging her capital. Does she rematerialize inside the capital castle, even if it is being seiged? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This could be the stake in the heart we are looking for. Kill the queen and jack the capital. Well only one way to verify....Be back in little while.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sadly this does not seem to be correct (pulls hair out) I have tested it 3 times and the VQ just materialized inside capital...no death...back to the drawing board.

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Kel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pirateiam:
[QUOTE]I have tested it extensively - never has lost to a VQ 1v1 - she gets nailed before she buffs. I have let her buff and it is 60% kill success rate. With VQ with misc army things change but I know I would send more the one on a strike anyways? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2 to trample chaff 2 to hit the queen works quit nicely.

What seems interesting is that there are other successful units that work so it does not exclude nations. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just curious, how does it work out if she has cheapo equipment ? Probably use stuff that is cheap but up to the same level as golems.

- Kel </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The success rate goes down 1v1 to about 6 successes out of 10 but
1.) I would never use only one Golem anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

2.) The key is getting to her before she buffs and using lifeless (Golems) so the dang Life drain does not turn her into a 100+ HP Buffed VQ

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pirateiam:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Cainehill:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I am thinking about another idea but someone needs to answer this question. Here is the scenario: Lets say you kill the VQ (in her Domain) but on the same turn begin sieging her capital. Does she rematerialize inside the capital castle, even if it is being seiged? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This could be the stake in the heart we are looking for. Kill the queen and jack the capital. Well only one way to verify....Be back in little while.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sadly this does not seem to be correct (pulls hair out) I have tested it 3 times and the VQ just materialized inside capital...no death...back to the drawing board. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Too bad. It would be indeed a good counterstrategy, all you need to do it to overcome 25 (or whatever) defense in the capital for 1 turn with few summoning spells.

[Daynarr]

Golems are VQ worse nightmare. They can be the end of her in almost any mid game if used properly. Just buff them to level 3 astral (use items or/and empowerment) and teleport them at VQ at right moment. You can do it from anywhere so if VQ player gets bold and starts attacking outside of his dominion - nail him. You can attack her almost anywhere and before she moves so VQ will never be safe anymore. Also, all her buffs are really expensive to get since they are in so many paths so it usually takes only once to kill her outside of her dominion to get rid of most of them.

Golems should be properly equipped of course (boots of flying, magical weapon, etc.).

[Turms]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pirateiam:
I am thinking about another idea but someone needs to answer this question. Here is the scenario: Lets say you kill the VQ (in her Domain) but on the same turn begin sieging her capital. Does she rematerialize inside the capital castle, even if it is being seiged? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Was this in the original All the Nations game? I was playing Machaka, so it was probably me who first defeated your Vampire Queen.

In that game at least the VQ came back inside the capital fort right away. As I was storming the fort, I fought her twice. The second time was much easier as she had taken a hit from a Black bow of Botulf and was feebleminded.

My experience is a bit limited, but I will tell what did work in that battle. First, I thought Dust to Dust would be great against a VQ, but seems it is not. My witch doctors made several hits, but no damage. Either they didn't really hit (it's hard to see) or the damage is not magical so etherealness negates it.

As already said, black bow made the second fight easier - it gives no MR-roll. But what really was useful was the web spit of spider knights. A hit from the web lowers her defence to 4 and immobilizes her. And then just attacking with normal troops was quite enough. I guess a spider lord with the web spit and a black bow or something similar would be really nice against a VQ..

[AhhhFresh]

It would seem that others are correct regarding how to best use Angelic Host vs. a VQ.

Summon-drop of several hosts would only work well on a lone VQ being used offensively... which is perhaps not so difficult to deal with.

If the VQ is being used more defensively, at the lead of a strong army... an army you can match, with the exception of the VQ... then it would be semmingly best to bring a couple of hosts scripted to "attack fliers" to negate the VQ effect almost immediately... leaving your armies to fight more on even ground.

However, I imagine the VQ would bring a stable of fliers of it's own to mitigate this effect somewhat...

[Gandalf Parker]

VQ does seem to still be an advantage in taking indepts early in the game. Other gods can do that also so its not that you get an unfair lead. But you worry about the damage it takes while the VQ isnt such a big worry in that area.

[Molog]

Wouldn't mandrogoras be a good counter. They are undead, their sleep vines ignore armor and etherealness, six attacks pro mandrogora, 4 hits would be enough to put the vq to sleep, less if she was already fatigued.

Black forest Ulm gets that Nightzehrer hero, who is a better Version of the vampire queen. Only not stealthy, but he can get an heroic ability. Make him your profet for better effect.

Pretty new at dominions, so might be wrong.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Molog:
Wouldn't mandrogoras be a good counter. They are undead, their sleep vines ignore armor and etherealness, six attacks pro mandrogora, 4 hits would be enough to put the vq to sleep, less if she was already fatigued.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem with mandrogoras, is that they don't fly... so they won't be able to get to her before she buffs. Though I was recently schooled to their effectiveness against SC's in a recent MP game...

Is the sleep effect resisted with MR? If so, a fully decked out VQ should be nigh immune... and if they're not lifeless, then the old Soul Vortex + Wraith Sword would keep her pretty safe methinks.

EDIT: They are undead (duh!) so of course they're lifeless, but MR negates the sleep effect... so I dunno... if she's almost at 100 fatigue after buffing, then you might be able to get her... since Soul Vortex won't help. But I doubt it would do much against a fully equiped VQ with reinvigoration items and a sky-high MR.

Black forest Ulm gets that Nightzehrer hero, who is a better Version of the vampire queen. Only not stealthy, but he can get an heroic ability. Make him your profet for better effect.

Pretty new at dominions, so might be wrong. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know his magic paths, but VQ's really only become uber with a lot of magic... so it's unlikely that he would be quite as effective as an optimized VQ.

[ May 06, 2004, 19:43: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

[AhhhFresh]

An intersting issue has been brought up by archaeolept which is part of the temple/castle/VQ strat:

The VQ is hidden in the sea of castles for the most part, and if it does move out i'm not sure if an attack on her would occur before an "instant castle" spell like 7 red seconds takes place.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So that's the question... does anybody knows what happens if:

1)VQ has just won a battle is alone in a province
2)Your mages cast Angelic Host 2-3 times on the province
3)One of her mages casts Wizard's Tower on the same province

Which happens first? Are you always going to have your Angels staring at her brand new castle walls? Or are you always going to have battle before the castle can come up? Or is it random?

Anybody in a position to test this?

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
An intersting issue has been brought up by archaeolept which is part of the temple/castle/VQ strat:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The VQ is hidden in the sea of castles for the most part, and if it does move out i'm not sure if an attack on her would occur before an "instant castle" spell like 7 red seconds takes place.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Anybody in a position to test this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both are "spell attacks" on a province so the answer might involve the order of the nations, or maybe the game-age of the mages. So testing might have to be done with different nations.

Whats needed to test it. If I add to the Aran.map something like
#specstart 6 111 (arcos)
#startspell 6 "Angelic Host"

#specstart 10 123 (pangaea)
#god 10 "Vampire Queen"
#dominionstr 10 10
#startspell 10 "Wizards Tower"

WOuld that be enough to test it? Id probably have to give Arcos a god with clams or an extra site that generates pearles

[Norfleet]

I just made a very interesting discovery:

The absolute best counter for a VQ I've found so far appears to be....vampires. Ordinary vampires. They'll destroy even fully-equipped VQs, even when they strike after the mirror images are up.

Why?

Because it seems that even if they miss, even if they fail to do any damage, as evidenced by the fact that mirror images don't collapse, fatigue is inflicted! As a result, in the matter of a round or two, the VQ will surpass 100 fatigue and pass out, totally useless. I just found this out as a result of trying to use my newly-equipped pretender to mop up a pesky vampire count attack....and was very surprised to see this happen.

An extension of this theory would suggest that any attack which inflicts fatigue damage behaves likewise. This could be why Zen has consistently hinted at the great effectiveness of Mandragorae against any SC. Ghosts should definitely exhibit a similar behavior.

[ May 07, 2004, 00:18: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
The absolute best counter for a VQ I've found so far appears to be....vampires. Ordinary vampires. They'll destroy even fully-equipped VQs, even when they strike after the mirror images are up.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow, thats kindof funny. I wont slap myself for not trying it because even now it just doesnt seem like a reasonable thing to have tried.

[Norfleet]

Yeah, I kinda discovered this by accident also.

But vampires are probably perfect for the job: They fly, so they can strike instantly. They're undead and immune to cold and poison, just as the queen herself is, so none of the damage shields that the queen could use, if she Lasts that long, will affect them: Breath of Winter is useless. Soul Vortex is useless. Fire Shield doesn't do enough damage to stop the vampires from regenerating it back. Astral Shield will only slow the effect down.

What's more, if you are counterattacking with the vampires on YOUR dominion, YOU RISK NOTHING!

Of course, for a non-blood nation, vampires may be difficult to access, but surprisingly, you don't need very many. I was sunk by a mere 17 vampires, managing to slay only a dismal 4. That amounts to less than 3 castings of Blood Rite, a sum of a mere 78 blood slaves.

Even if you don't want to go the blood route, anything similar will do: Ghosts, for instance, can accomplish the same effect, although you will not be able to fly-attack....unless you use Mass Flight. Mandragorae could probably do the job, but their sleep vines are slightly different from the Life Drain attack shared by Ghosts and Vampires, so they may not produce the same result....but they're much cheaper and more expendable.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Both are "spell attacks" on a province so the answer might involve the order of the nations, or maybe the game-age of the mages. So testing might have to be done with different nations.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">According to the turn sequence in the manual, all rituals are cast in random order. The devs have also stated that globals are all resolved simultaneously.

[Stormbinder]

Funny, I've discovered similar bug yesterday myslef in one of my MP games.

Remeber one of IDs, the fighter who come with hellsword? Hellsword drain hitpoints and fatique. So I've eqiped my Stormqueen to deal with that ID raider. When they come to blows ID won by turn 8, to my huge surprise. He won beause despite the fact that he couldn't land one blow on my StormQueen, prtected by 9 mirror immages, the fatique was still drain every time he swing his sword.

I think it is pretty nasty bug, if it applies to any lifedrain-type attack vs Mirroimmaged target.

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Funny, I've discovered similar bug yesterday myslef in one of my MP games.

Remeber one of IDs, the fighter who come with hellsword? Hellsword drain hitpoints and fatique. So I've eqiped my Stormqueen to deal with that ID raider. When they come to blows ID won by turn 8, to my huge surprise. He won beause despite the fact that he couldn't land one blow on my StormQueen, prtected by 9 mirror immages, the fatique was still drain every time he swing his sword.

I think it is pretty nasty bug, if it applies to any lifedrain-type attack vs Mirroimmaged target. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's been that way for a while, whether or not it's a bug or just 'one of those things' could be up in the air. Especially considering how hard it would be to hit someone with say 9 Mirror Images and 30 Defense before they killed you and your entire army that there is no counter for.

Just for your own testing purposes, try taking a Golem or any other Lifeless unit (Golem is easiest) and putting some air on it and look at the results, I think you'll be surprised.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Funny, I've discovered similar bug yesterday myslef in one of my MP games.

Remeber one of IDs, the fighter who come with hellsword? Hellsword drain hitpoints and fatique. So I've eqiped my Stormqueen to deal with that ID raider. When they come to blows ID won by turn 8, to my huge surprise. He won beause despite the fact that he couldn't land one blow on my StormQueen, prtected by 9 mirror immages, the fatique was still drain every time he swing his sword.

I think it is pretty nasty bug, if it applies to any lifedrain-type attack vs Mirroimmaged target. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure your StormQueen wasn't simply fatiguing herself a lot? Hellsword, Wraith Blade, Bloodthorn(?) shouldn't be able to drain fatigue unless they hit the opponent.

But if you had your StormQueen in high armor, casting spells, she might might herself out by turn 8.

[Pirateiam]

Originally posted by Zen:
Just for your own testing purposes, try taking a Golem or any other Lifeless unit (Golem is easiest) and putting some air on it and look at the results, I think you'll be surprised. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well if you look at the start of this post you will see my Flying Golem tests. I have tested it extensively and have found quite a bit of success so far.

[Pirateiam]

just made a very interesting discovery:

The absolute best counter for a VQ I've found so far appears to be....vampires. Ordinary vampires. They'll destroy even fully-equipped VQs, even when they strike after the mirror images are up.

Why?

Because it seems that even if they miss, even if they fail to do any damage, as evidenced by the fact that mirror images don't collapse, fatigue is inflicted! As a result, in the matter of a round or two, the VQ will surpass 100 fatigue and pass out, totally useless. I just found this out as a result of trying to use my newly-equipped pretender to mop up a pesky vampire count attack....and was very surprised to see this happen.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was about to PM you sbout that since I saw your God get killed in our game. So Ulm Blackforest could be quite a headache for any VQ.

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
Well if you look at the start of this post you will see my Flying Golem tests. I have tested it extensively and have found quite a bit of success so far. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh yes, I know. But I mean if you want to look at different fatigue and reasons for/why/how they happen. Try using something with Sleep Vines, Life Drain, and some other things on things that are Lifeless and see what works.