Proposition: Zen vs. Norfleet

[AhhhFresh]

I see a lot of the complaints about "game balance", and I notice that the two most promminent voices (that are usually opposed) tend to be Zen and Norfleet.

I'd like to see a Best of 7 series, that pitted Norfleet's "unbalanced" strats against Zen and his wisdom of all thing Dom....

No restrictions, other than that it be a relatively small map that can 1v1 effectively.

I'm obviously not either of the two "contenders" so I can't speak for them... but I hope they consider this, as a new method of debate...

I'd like to see this happen, with an observer who could write up Battle Reports... I'll do it myself, but I'm not such a great writer...

What say you?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
I see a lot of the complaints about "game balance", and I notice that the two most promminent voices (that are usually opposed) tend to be Zen and Norfleet.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We're opposed? Both of us go "Meh" at the stuff that people are complaining about. That's not very opposed to me.

[Arryn]

I'd like to see Zen v. Norfy if for no other reason than Zen is likely to be one of very few people on this forum that might be able to defeat Norfy's very well-developed Ermor strategy. At a minimum, such a match would be HIGHLY educational to read about. Both players have a deep understanding of many subtle aspects of the game. Each of them has a large ego, neither of which bruise easily, and both are reasonably mature (age having nothing to do with it) so the competition will be pleasant and polite (something that is getting increasingly difficult to come by).

Zen v. Norfleet would be a major public service (and spectacle). All in favor please speak up and be counted! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

Personally Id word it alittle differently. Id say Norfleet and Zen should play in the usenet group. The crowd that have been in dom since the first days. I dont think 1-on-1 shows the best of Dom. Id like to see a mega game of the usenet crowd from comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic with Norfleet in it.

[Norfleet]

Hey, Arryn's alive. Haven't seen you in ages. Figured you might have died. What happened to your AAR?

I'd certainly be open to the idea of a large game of that sort....but Zen has admitted he would rather gouge out his own eye than play in such a thing. Our preferences for game types are a little too dissimilar for such a thing to be satisfactory to both sides.

Please note: If anyone is making such a mod featuring prominent forumites as units or pretenders, Zen should be given the "lost an eye" and "lost the other eye as well" afflictions, on account of having gouged out his eyes rather than playing such a thing with me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 17, 2004, 22:55: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Hey, Arryn's alive. Haven't seen you in ages. Figured you might have died.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't, my father did. I only got back to my home yesterday.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Arryn:
I didn't, my father did. I only got back to my home yesterday. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have my condolences then.

Coaxing Norfleet into playing a small 1v1 game might be more of a challenge than playing him.

Also, Norfleet's tested and true strategy is not condusive to 1v1 trials.

If I have time I will make my next longstanding (8+ Player) game with Norfleet and anyone else who would like to play with such popularly contended abusive strategies like: Playing with a VQ, building a Clam of Pearls, or Building alot of Castles.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Zen:
Coaxing Norfleet into playing a small 1v1 game might be more of a challenge than playing him.

Also, Norfleet's tested and true strategy is not condusive to 1v1 trials.

If I have time I will make my next longstanding (8+ Player) game with Norfleet and anyone else who would like to play with such popularly contended abusive strategies like: Playing with a VQ, building a Clam of Pearls, or Building alot of Castles. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The reason why I suggested 1v1, was that I feel the "politics" are pretty hot right now... so in an 8 player game, how many would like to see Norfleet and his strat lose? Would that be fair?

But I mainly hope that you two end up in an MP game (of however many players) that gets written up... THAT would be a great service to the Dom II community. You know, into the minds of great strategists and what not...

[Norfleet]

A writeup would have to be done by somebody else. My senility and overload of games tends to preclude me from remembering what the hell happened more than a few turns ago...particularly if the game runs at a slow pace. I certainly won't remember when or what happened, other than hilights, after the game ends. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
A writeup would have to be done by somebody else. My senility and overload of games tends to preclude me from remembering what the hell happened more than a few turns ago...particularly if the game runs at a slow pace. I certainly won't remember when or what happened, other than hilights, after the game ends. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A neutral observer would be ideal for this task... though I'm not sure how it would be acomplished... would "master password" do it? Or just sending a basic summary?

Do we have any journalism majors in the house?

That would actually be pretty cool... to stlye an AAR between you two as an article...

[AhhhFresh]

A Karan game with 8 players seems to be a decent way to compromise the different playstyles involved here.

If Zen and Norfleet agree to this, then we come to the next question: How are the other players picked?

People who don't have a strong feeling either way as to whether VQ/castling is "exploitave"... I don't want the game simply to be "gang up on Norfleet"...

But obviously skilled players are needed... players who would be angered by the fact that Zen and Norfleet are the headliners of the bill. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

This NEEDS to happen.

[Lepakko]

i like to join game..but im all most newbie but you can only come better if you can play whit the best

now my friends start to be easy to kill..so need new face to kill and learn more of this great game

but..are you only looking old and realy good players?

i realy like to see how "the best" plays so i can learn

[Kel]

If you are going to have a game with 8 players, you may not want to try and use it to prove/disprove balance since there will likely be disparity between skill levels of players inviolved.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing writeups of 'serious' games played by skilled players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Kel:
If you are going to have a game with 8 players, you may not want to try and use it to prove/disprove balance since there will likely be disparity between skill levels of players inviolved.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing writeups of 'serious' games played by skilled players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I agree with you there regarding "Balance" issues... but the chance to have a "Clash of the Titans" fully reported is too rich to pass up. What all us lesser players could learn from such an exchange would be priceless...

I wonder whether we could convince the Devs to participate in this match?

Would be Epic, but in a nice way.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zen:
Coaxing Norfleet into playing a small 1v1 game might be more of a challenge than playing him.

Also, Norfleet's tested and true strategy is not condusive to 1v1 trials.

If I have time I will make my next longstanding (8+ Player) game with Norfleet and anyone else who would like to play with such popularly contended abusive strategies like: Playing with a VQ, building a Clam of Pearls, or Building alot of Castles. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">...Or doing all three and playing Ermor. That would sound like a Norfleet's standard enviroment. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

I don't think I would be able to play in this game, but it would be very interesting to watch. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ May 18, 2004, 06:06: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[proteus]

It is very easy to play Ermor. I am playing with them 2 hours / day, I tried out all possible strategies with them.
How can I play on the internet?

[Endoperez]

Ermor is very easy to play, versus AI. AI can't really handle them well. You might want to try playing AGAINST them for a change. Just build lots of priests. After that you might want to consider what will happen to Ermor in multiplayer in where most are afraid of you, want to kill you before you depopulate half the world and know that the best way versus Ermor are priests. Of course, if you happen to play the normal theme they will propably find out you are not the snack they came for...

To play in internet, you can either Play By E-Mail, in which you send your .2h file to a host and he sends you a .trn file after all players have played their turns and he has hosted the game, or by letting the game automagically send the files. You have to have a host somewhere, of course, and know his IP-address and the right port. That's about all I know about that way to play MP...


Oh. And you haven't tried out all the strategies available to Ermor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Scott Hebert]

I think the idea of a documented high-level game is an excellent one.

However, just as good of an idea would be a game that paired new players with old. Then the old players can assist the new players if they need it, and new players can see how old players play _from inside the game_.

[Cohen]

Well, I believe an 1on1 game will be nice to see if strats are balanced, broken or what you prefer to call them ...

Surely if there're more than Zen and Norf playing, I'd be glad to be inside but I'm not very skilled ... however I fear the challenge beetween them could be heavily modified from other player intervention.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Cohen:
Well, I believe an 1on1 game will be nice to see if strats are balanced, broken or what you prefer to call them ...

Surely if there're more than Zen and Norf playing, I'd be glad to be inside but I'm not very skilled ... however I fear the challenge beetween them could be heavily modified from other player intervention. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I am not sure MP Dom2 1vs1 game would be very interesting. The reason is that I suspect there would be too much of "avalanche" effect. I think what will happen is that people would spend a lot of hours expanding and building the nation, than the fate of the gme will be decided in one or two large battles, since once will start to win, each next battle will be increseangly more easy to win than the previous one. With multiply players in MP other players can always interfere to prevent the wining nation from becoming too strong due to its starting victories, and by doing this severely limiting "avalanche" effect. In 1 vs 1 game there will be no such limitation, especially so on small map.

This is just a theory though, I've never tried 1 vs 1 game myself and is not very interested to try. But I suspect it to be the true, based upon my MP Dom2 experience.

[Torlin HalfAxe]

So what ever happened to this little gem of an idea???

I'm sure I'd learn a lot from a report of this calibur!

[Norfleet]

This idea has been shelled, because I've found out that Zen is actually one of the Great Evil Ones. Plus he seems to always be busy.

[ June 23, 2004, 17:04: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Yes, I am one of the great evil ones. Norfleet is under the assumption that anyone who thinks that anything that has been patched that sees improvement is evil, since he doesn't see it that way. ;P

Plus I am busy. Though I forsee in the next few weeks a slot opening up as far as my time for another longstanding, turn a day, consume my freetime game and as promised I will invite Norfleet plus anyone else who wants to join within the parameters of the game to go ahead and play.

[ June 23, 2004, 17:31: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Torlin HalfAxe]

Plus I am busy. Though I forsee in the next few weeks a slot opening up as far as my time for another longstanding, turn a day, consume my freetime game and as promised I will invite Norfleet plus anyone else who wants to join within the parameters of the game to go ahead and play.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well then get Arryn(sp?) in there too so he can write up a well written report for us as the game goes along!

So being that you're a Great Evil One, Zen, do you get more points to spend on your pretender in *your* games? Or is that not a question that should be asked here in public? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

No, as a Great Evil One I must eat children, devour worlds and cause mayhem and destruction wherever I roam.

I believe Norfleet refers to me as a Doom Horror.

Edit: Also Arryn is a she, not a he. I thought I'd mention it so she doesn't have to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 23, 2004, 18:25: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Blitz]

Norfleet is under the assumption that anyone who thinks that anything that has been patched that sees improvement is evil, since he doesn't see it that way<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't make me post links to your pro-vq threads zen lol.

Post them. I still stand by what is said. Popular opinion has nothing to do with balance and will continue to do nothing with balance. Hard Numbers and Thematic reasoning are what have to do with Balance.

[Torlin HalfAxe]

Argh, my apologies Arryn! I mean no disrespect.

As for you, Zen, your diabolical schemes and consumption of smaller beings is heretical! You must pay for your crimes!

...

...Go get 'em Norfleet!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Arryn]

Actually, Zen v. Norfleet reminds me a lot of Nazi Germany v. USSR: two evil empires at each other's throats. It's oh so hard to cheer for either one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Fortunately for me, both are very nice people -- when you're not playing against them, of course. In games, they are devious, sneaky, ruthless, and downright nasty. In other words, they make excellent gods. There's much to be learned from them. Once you get past the facade of bluster and male ego. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Blitz]

Hey arryn, are you the same from the Apolyton civ 3 forums?

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
This idea has been shelled, because I've found out that Zen is actually one of the Great Evil Ones. Plus he seems to always be busy. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, and you don't want to compete against your peer? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Ah, and you don't want to compete against your peer? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. It's because I've known that Zen is clearly associated with Illwinter, beyond any reasonable doubt. While it is normally mandatory policy that I don't play staff, I was willing to suspend this on the grounds that Illwinter was supposed to be different.

They are not.

Therefore, I do not play staff. He may be a cool guy and all, but rules are rules.

[ June 24, 2004, 04:10: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Blitz]

No. It's because I've known that Zen is clearly associated with Illwinter, beyond any reasonable doubt <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is he staff? I thought he was just a dev fanboi lol.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Is he staff? I thought he was just a dev fanboi lol. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, all of his comments suggest that he is associated with them. That says "staff" to me. For this reason, and in light of Illwinter's recent behavior which has forced me to more critically evaluate the matter, such a game is no longer a viable option.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Is he staff? I thought he was just a dev fanboi lol.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">AFAIK, he's not staff. He is a moderator here, and does perform other duties for them, however. It's not like he's made it any big secret or anything.

And, Blitz, you really should work on presentation. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Scott Hebert]

Yes, all of his comments suggest that he is associated with them. That says "staff" to me. For this reason, and in light of Illwinter's recent behavior which has forced me to more critically evaluate the matter, such a game is no longer a viable option.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Er, the fact that he's a moderator and IIRC he's a playtester isn't enough for you to tell he's affiliated with them?

Without pay, it'd be hard to say he's 'staff'. I guess it depends on your definition. If you define it as 'performs duties for them', you don't need to make insinuations here or there; his name listed as one of the Moderators should be enough, shouldn't it?

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Hey arryn, are you the same from the Apolyton civ 3 forums? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, though I did play Civ3 for many months after it first came out.

I'm the Arryn who was in E&B (though I was best known as Sharia, an Officer in the Executives of Infiniti guild in the Andromeda galaxy, playing a L124+ Progen Sentinel), and I was also in SWG beta (and best known as Sharia the armorsmith after release).

[Blitz]

And, Blitz, you really should work on presentation. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That was done tongue in cheek, and shouldn't be taken as anything else. I like Zen, even if he does back the devs on everything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Blitz]

No, though I did play Civ3 for many months after it first came out.

I'm the Arryn who was in E&B (though I was best known as Sharia, an Officer in the Executives of Infiniti guild in the Andromeda galaxy, playing a L124+ Progen Sentinel), and I was also in SWG beta (and best known as Sharia the armorsmith after release).
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I confused you with Arrian, someone who has a similar writing style. Hi anyway lol

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
I like Zen, even if he does back the devs on everything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's hard to tell whether Zen actually believes what he says, or whether he's required to be their loyal stooge under the terms of his employment contract.

[Blitz]

It's hard to tell whether Zen actually believes what he says, or whether he's required to be their loyal stooge under the terms of his employment contract.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Takes a lot to make me actually lol when reading forums... and I thought only I noticed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

All in good fun Zen

[Norfleet]

Well, the entire "we own your soul" thing tends to be standard boilerplate when dealing with companies. I used to believe Illwinter was different, but now I see there's no real evidence to support that.

[Huzurdaddi]

Well, the entire "we own your soul" thing tends to be standard boilerplate when dealing with companies. I used to believe Illwinter was different, but now I see there's no real evidence to support that.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nooo .... that sounds bitter and you are too cool to be bitter! Say it ain't so!

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
Nooo .... that sounds bitter and you are too cool to be bitter! Say it ain't so! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not too cool to be bitter. I make being bitter cool.

Frankly, I've always been this way. I just thought Illwinter was different. Turns out they're not, to no great surprise. Hey, if it sounds like a rat, and smells like a rat, go figure.

Personally, I'd have been happy to let this thing DIE, but SOMEBODY *glares at Torlin* had to dig this thing back up.

[ June 24, 2004, 07:36: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Actually I don't back IW on every conceivable thing that they say. Because as we all know, everyone is human and can potentially make mistakes. What I do back is the fact that this game, which these forums are for, is singular in the fact that it provides so much more than most other games of it's genre and it has evolved from it's release to now to a much better game, no matter whatever biased opinion that certain players feel because they consistantly have problems with anything being changed from it's original form and take the MMO mentality of everything is a "Nerf" and nothing is an upgrade.

I do however, totally and unflinchingly back the proper context which thoughts and ideas are delivered *to* the Developers if you wish to initiate change. And it is there that most of the conflict arises where I must "back Illwinter".

[ June 24, 2004, 13:44: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zen:
the MMO mentality of everything is a "Nerf" and nothing is an upgrade<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Having played the E&B and SWG MMOs, I can assure you that the majority of the nerfs those games suffered through, during and post-beta, did not improve the game, nor were they felt as "upgrades" by 99% of the players. I can only recall a handful of nerfs that actually worked well to improve game balance. The rest simply lessened (drastically) the enjoyment of the game for those players with characters directly affected by them.

So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players. There are real, serious, longstanding bugs in Dom2 that have yet to be fixed while IW devotes its attention to silencing the whining of a very vocal and tiny percentage of its customers, many of which are grossly challenged in the strategic-thinking department and should go back to playing the mindless twitch games that they're suited for.

If a game is less fun after a patch than before, then that patch's nerfs are counterproductive. E&B and SWG (especially SWG) failed that test miserably. After all, people play games to have fun, and not to just fatten the bank accounts of the companies running the games. So far, I cannot say that about Dom 2, but as I said, the trend is disturbing.

[The Meal]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
While it is normally mandatory policy that I don't play staff<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm curious as to your reasons for this limitation. If you've talked about this elsewhere, a link would be fine. (Or if you don't care to further comment on it at all, that's okay by me, too -- this is just a curiousity.)

Thanks,
~The Meal

Originally posted by Arryn:
So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players. There are real, serious, longstanding bugs in Dom2 that have yet to be fixed while IW devotes its attention to silencing the whining of a very vocal and tiny percentage of its customers, many of which are grossly challenged in the strategic-thinking department and should go back to playing the mindless twitch games that they're suited for.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cross Platform Compatibility and Adjustable Battle speed do not fall into the fix Category then? Or the fact that most of the things that are 'fixed' were discussed before the game was released as something that should/could/would be fixed in the future? (Elemental Armor being one of them)

If a game is less fun after a patch than before, then that patch's nerfs are counterproductive. E&B and SWG (especially SWG) failed that test miserably. After all, people play games to have fun, and not to just fatten the bank accounts of the companies running the games. So far, I cannot say that about Dom 2, but as I said, the trend is disturbing. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's always going to be less fun for those who never had an issue before a change. Some people have fun playing with sticks, so when people start playing with paintguns suddenly it's 'no fun' to them and they feel 'wronged'. It's a perception issue. The current trend of fixing things that need to be fixed (I.E. Themes, bugs, inconsistancies and in part, balance).

If Clams and Castles were nerfed I might feel the same way, but as it stands now, all I see are people who were burned by games in the past pushing those feelings on a game that hasn't. Negative perception will always be just that. If this was Atari or Troika, you could have a track record of keeping things broke, shipping out unfinished product just for the cash, then leaving it virtually unsupported and without communication.

I personally very little faith in developers (in general) on a released product because of disregarding mentality. But once a developer shows me they do commit to the things they promise I am okay with their effort and willing to cut them a little slack. Others may not feel that way, they may feel that their 49.95 or 64.95 or 39.95 entitles them to make business decisions for a design team and the game they purchased and got their money's worth out of demands to be fixed on their terms or not fixed as the case may be. I just happen to not be in that particular Category.

[ June 24, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: Zen ]

Originally posted by Arryn:
Having played the E&B and SWG MMOs,<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also I do believe MMO's are a different kind of beast. An altogether bigger, uglier and in a different Category than I feel Dom2 is in. Not saying I haven't played them, on the contrary, and I know exactly what you are saying and has been said for every MMO past and previous, probably can be said of MUD's as well.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Arryn:
So far, IW does not appear to have gone hog-wild with the same sort of nerfing as I experienced in those games (which is the reason I quit SWG), but the trend that I'm seeing is disturbing. I'm a firm believer in the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, and several of the nerfs from 2.08 onwards fall into the "we jacked with it because we felt like it" Category, rather than because there was any pressing need to fix some problem being reported by a majority of players.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You seem to be in a pessimistic mood today. ;-)

If you look back at the units and themes that were changed from 2.08 onwards, the list of improvements is much longer than the list of nerfs.

And to my knowledge the only nerfs that fall into the "because we felt like it" Category are these ones:

* Freak Lord size 6 -> 5.
* Atlantian scout protection 4 -> 2.
* Witch doc, research 5 -> 3 and cost 90 -> 80.

If that's what you call a trend, its effect looks rather unsignificant.

[ June 24, 2004, 16:35: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by The Meal:
I'm curious as to your reasons for this limitation. If you've talked about this elsewhere, a link would be fine. (Or if you don't care to further comment on it at all, that's okay by me, too -- this is just a curiousity.)<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The reason why I do not play staffers is very simple: If you ever manage to beat one, you can bet your *** that whatever you did is going to be nerfed into the dirt. While I may suspend this for developers I actually have faith in, Illwinter is no longer one of these.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
If you look back at the units and themes that were changed from 2.08 onwards, the list of improvements is much longer than the list of nerfs.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree, and I have not implied otherwise. If that's what you call a trend, its effect looks rather unsignificant. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's significant insofar as IW is devoting time to trivialities (another word for something "insignificant") rather than spending whatever time it took to do those nerfs/tweaks to fix some of the longstanding bugs that have been listed in the bugs thread. I'm not worried about the nerfs in and of themselves (unlike Norfleet, who IMO takes the nerfing entirely too personally), but that they are doing them at all. IMO, and it's just that, IMO, IW has a limited amount of dev time and IMO it's best spent on real bugs. Zen (in fanboi mode) points to some of the bugs they've fixed but misses the point. The point is the bugs IW has not fixed (as yet) ... which might have been fixed if they were not distracted dealing with appeasing whiners and (IMO) wasting time with nerfs.

IMO, unless there is a gross play-balance issue (and I've yet to see any in Dom 2, even as far back as 2.02), the dev priority should be fixing bugs. After nearly all bugs are squashed, then they can have the luxury of tweaking stuff that isn't outright broken. None of the nerfs post-2.02 were necessary now. They could have waited. The game has other, more serious issues that (IMO) should be worked on first. When you are fixing a house, you deal with the foundation and roof before cosmetic things like paint and landscaping. Nerfs are cosmetic (IMO).

In fairness to IW, they have fixed many, many bugs. And they have great customer support and are nice people to talk to. But there are still plenty of bugs crawling around.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
The reason why I do not play staffers is very simple: If you ever manage to beat one, you can bet your *** that whatever you did is going to be nerfed into the dirt.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have yet to see an exception to this rule. Game company staff always seem to believe that if you can "beat them at their own game" then the game must be flawed, rather than it being the staffer's inferiority at play. Very few people can overcome their ego, recognize their limitations, and admit that someone else might actually be sharper than themselves (be it due to superior experience, intellect, or both).

Originally posted by Arryn:
It's significant insofar as IW is devoting time to trivialities (another word for something "insignificant") rather than spending whatever time it took to do those nerfs/tweaks to fix some of the longstanding bugs that have been listed in the bugs thread. I'm not worried about the nerfs in and of themselves (unlike Norfleet, who IMO takes the nerfing entirely too personally), but that they are doing them at all. IMO, and it's just that, IMO, IW has a limited amount of dev time and IMO it's best spent on real bugs. Zen (in fanboi mode) points to some of the bugs they've fixed but misses the point. The point is the bugs IW has not fixed (as yet) ... which might have been fixed if they were not distracted dealing with appeasing whiners and (IMO) wasting time with nerfs.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which bugs are these? And maybe this hasn't been said enough, there are 2 members of the IW team. One the artist and one the coder. Certain things (including Balance issues or modification of units, creation of units, new maps, new themes, etc) can be done by one. The major bugs can only be dealt with by the other. Do you know what gets fixed first in patches? Previous bugs introduced, network and performance issues, coding problems (Battle Inconsistancy, Battle Speed, etc) that can be found (which is the hard part). Then after that the 'fluff' is introduced. Also IW is not distracted in dealing with whiners as much as they are doing what *they* want with the game. Which may not be what you want, or what bugs you think are important, or UI issues, or any number of things that you feel are important, because they do not feel the same importance.

IMO, unless there is a gross play-balance issue (and I've yet to see any in Dom 2, even as far back as 2.02), the dev priority should be fixing bugs.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That may not be their priority because they are working on a timeline. The single most important thing for patches and patches were battle inconsistancy and battle speed. They took time but were fixed. I don't see how you would assume that it isn't a priority, but as much as noone wants to hear it, this is two guys (one guy that can actually work on bugs) doing the fixing. If you'd like to apply for a job at Illwinter for a modest salary of nothing to be a programmer and debugger, I'm sure they'd take your application with some interest.

In fairness to IW, they have fixed many, many bugs. And they have great customer support and are nice people to talk to. But there are still plenty of bugs crawling around. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Noone said there wasn't. There are plenty of bugs around, probably more that we don't know about and probably will be in the future. Most are minor at this stage, non-game breaking. There are a few large UI and possibly AI issues that if could be resolved would make the game easier to bear, but IMO the bugs are relatively minor in comparison for the entire game.

Originally posted by Arryn:
I have yet to see an exception to this rule. Game company staff always seem to believe that if you can "beat them at their own game" then the game must be flawed, rather than it being the staffer's inferiority at play. Very few people can overcome their ego, recognize their limitations, and admit that someone else might actually be sharper than themselves (be it due to superior experience, intellect, or both). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well considering I'm not a 'staffer' then this is likely true. I have heard the same about older women and crotchety old men, who claim cheating or any other reasoning for their own loss instead of just the way the game goes.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Zen:
I have heard the same about older women and crotchety old men, who claim cheating or any other reasoning for their own loss instead of just the way the game goes. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, it's with young folk where this is most prevalent, especially teens. Most older folk are aware of their limitations, at least the ones that play games (gamers are by no means "average" or representative examples of the population at large).

By the by, being an older woman myself, and consistently always losing to you, I have never, ever, claimed you were cheating or any other reason for losing than that you simply outmaneuvered me, had better tactics, or simply knew the game far better than I. If I were to play Norfleet, I would not claim that I lost because his VQ is unfair/unbalanced. I would lose because he has a better strategy and knows how to play his strategy/nation better than I know mine. Whether he's impossible to beat is highly debateable. What is a fact is that I am not prepared to do so (and may never be).

The original motivation, methinks, for the creation of this thread (besides educating us inferior players) is to see if another expert player (Zen) could defeat Norfleet's Ermor strategy. The only real way to have known if the VQ was unbalanced (as well as clams, etc.) was to have played on a "level" playing field where two players, both experts at the game, battled it out.

That such a match is unlikely to occur is a great loss to the entire Dom 2 community.

Originally posted by Arryn:
Actually, it's with young folk where this is most prevalent, especially teens. Most older folk are aware of their limitations, at least the ones that play games (gamers are by no means "average" or representative examples of the population at large).<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this is some sort of crazy perception issue as to what is young, old and 'in between'. I definitely agree the maturity of the 'young' players, some represented here in the Dom2 community was in question by myself and perhaps a few other people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

By the by, being an older woman myself, and consistently always losing to you, I have never, ever, claimed you were cheating or any other reason for losing than that you simply outmaneuvered me, had better tactics, or simply knew the game far better than I. If I were to play Norfleet, I would not claim that I lost because his VQ is unfair/unbalanced. I would lose because he has a better strategy and knows how to play his strategy/nation better than I know mine. Whether he's impossible to beat is highly debateable. What is a fact is that I am not prepared to do so (and may never be).<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said you did, just giving a generality that I have seen (like playing Pictionary with an older women, is hell). But since most of the games I have played, I have played mostly 'staffers' (beta testers, artists, developers) in a variety of games and have found them to be very congenial and only rarely of your experience (changing the game because they were hammered by a particular strategy/style). Most of my experience with them is that they have crazy ideas of how they play the game which is not the most efficent/effective way and get beaten badly by someone who takes the game to the extreme ends.

The original motivation, methinks, for the creation of this thread (besides educating us inferior players) is to see if another expert player (Zen) could defeat Norfleet's Ermor strategy. The only real way to have known if the VQ was unbalanced (as well as clams, etc.) was to have played on a "level" playing field where two players, both experts at the game, battled it out.

That such a match is unlikely to occur is a great loss to the entire Dom 2 community. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I will reinstate the previous VQ with a mod if Norfleet is going to throw a tantrum and alot of people want to play/watch and it actually *would* be a benefit to the community (which I highly doubt, a benefit to the community but that's because I don't think that the strategies used are all that highly evolved and are largly based around the sway of the game and there is a large part of the game that is affected by game generated random features [starting positions, indeps, etc] but I could be wrong, I have been before). Though then other people might throw a tantrum. For all Norfleet's "I don't like to play a Modified game, it was made this way so I play it this way" he has distinct problems when the original game changes and has a fit whenever patches come out for Norfleet only knows why reasons.

[ June 24, 2004, 18:24: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Blitz]

Maturity has little to do with age. I would bet few members of this forum could correctly guess mine.

[Torlin HalfAxe]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Leave it to the newb, Norfleet, we'll surprise and annoy you every single time.

Anyway, I'm just looking to be a better player, so I thought this idea would be a great learning experience! I'm really not tryig to stir up a hornets nest all over again.

With that said, I'll drop it now and let both of you continue on with your religeous purges.

*secrectly hopes the two purges wind up smacking straight into each each other in the middle of the chaos wastes, prompting all out war and the inevitable destruction of one of the most powerful beings here*

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Maturity has little to do with age.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're only young once, but you're never too old to be immature.


I would bet few members of this forum could correctly guess mine. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">12! I guess 12! Do I get a prize?

[Huzurdaddi]

I'm not too cool to be bitter. I make being bitter cool.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Norfleet, man, I was silly to doubt you. You will always be cool in my book.

You are, without a doubt, the most entertaining poster I have seen in any forum. That you are a subject matter expert as well is a bonus!