Golden Age Arcoscephale [Archive]

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 10:34 AM

I've played this theme extensively in SP, but in my opinion it loses far too much over vanilla Arco to be a viable choice in a competitive game. The theme is very appealing at first glance, but many of it's units are overcosted and underpowered. Let's take a quick look at some of the changes over regular arcoscephale.

1) Loses Hoplite, Hypaspist, Elephant, Philosoper, Strategos, Heavy Cavalry, Bad Chariot, and the Hoplite and Hypaspist Commanders.

2) Gains Myrmidion, Icaryd, Wind Rider, Wind Lord, Chariot, Chariot Archer, Engineer, Philosoper, Icarid Champion and Sceptic

3) Also has access to two new heroes in the Daiadalos and Asterios. Their starting site no longer produces SSSSN, but rather AAEES.

So we see that GA Arcoscephale loses all it's good military troops (Elephant, Hoplite, Hypaspist, Heart Companion), and these are replaced with the Myrmidion, Chariots, and Wind Riders. Chariots are just plain bad. The attrition rate is awful. Those, and Myrmidions are terribly resource-intensive under a sloth forced theme. The chariot archer has perhaps the worst precison of a ranged unit while being one of the most expensive. The wind riders are good units, but they are not much better than Valkries, while twice as much.

Wind Rider 13hp 17ar 12mr 11str 12at 16df
Valkrie 12hp 13ar 14mr 11str 13at 15df

The wind rider has the additional bonus of a lance, but the other stats are comparable. Also note the Valkrie has 25 stealth and that slightly good ability called glamour. IMHO these are two comparable units. The Wind Rider is superior, but not by a large margin, yet costs 125 to the valkrie's 60

The icarid is much cheaper than the Valkrie, but is extremely difficult to mass, costing 28 resources and being capitol-only. It's stats are also not comparable.

The myrmidion isn't a bad unit, but again it's very difficult to mass due to it's high resource cost under sloth. Additionally they are armed with short swords. Combine that with a whopping 8 encumberance, and it's unlikely they can stand up to commparably priced infantry.

Myrmidion 12hp 17ar 10mr 11str 12at 11df Short sword
Man at Arms 11hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Broad Sword
Blood of humans Abyssan HI 12hp 18ar 11mr 11str 10at 9df Morningstar
Swamp Guard 12hp 18ar 12mr 10str 11at 10df Falchion
Ermor/Plylithum Triarius 10hp 18ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Long Spear
Tien Chi Imperial Guard 10hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Falchionh
Zweihander 12hp 19ar 9mr 10str 10at 6df Great Sword
Hirdman 10hp 15ar 10mr 10str 11at 12df Broad Sword

All of these units are comparably priced. Only the Zweihander costs even close to the same number of resources and has the same 8 encumberance... yet costs only 10 gold. Every unit on this list has a better weapon, deals more damage, and has more staying power than the myrmidion. It's not even worth comparing them to the three exceptional hoplites that he replaces from standard Arco.

So in addition to losing our good infantry and elephants, we gain basicly nothing for regular army troops. The Myrmidion is a poor heavy infantry unit. The Wind Lord costs far too much. The Chariots are far too expensive to use against independants, and are of only limited use in large battles. Therefore we must gain something magically, right?

Wrong. We lose the Astrologer, the cheapest 3-astral mage available, and we gain no new mages. The philosopher is without question the best researcher available to any race, yet is only slightly more efficient than a sage, and cannot cast search spells or forge lesser magic items. The Engineer and Skeptic both have limited usage. Both are unique units with potential, but certianly cannot hope to have the game impact of bonus troops that other themes get. You can give me a laundry list of usages for these two units, and I will tell you that I'd rather have a Seithkona, Tuatha, Master of the 5 elements, Fortune Teller, or Galderman. I'd sure as heck rather have my Astrologers back. These units have a niche role, yes. However, they do not compensate for the loss of Astrologers in any way, shape or form.

Golden Era Arcoscephale is far too weak. I hope the developers choose to strengthen this theme in their next patch, as they did Blood of Humans and Desert Tombs in previous patches. While I concede that realisticly a Bronze-age myrmidon should not be able to stand up to iron infantry, there must be some magical compensation. The philosopher is a wonderful unit, however it is the only notable addition to this theme. Sadly this does not make up for losing the very strong hoplites and elephants... and certianly not the philosopher, who is nearly as powerful as an Arch-Seraph in my opinion.

Obviously these ideas haven't been thoroughly tested, and yes Zen, I'll mod it if enough people like the ideas.

1) Give the wind rider awe +1. The only national troops which cost more than a wind rider are the Hydra, Black Hunter, and Neifel Giant. This ability would boost their survival rate considerably, and probably make them one of the best national troops in the game. Since they are one of the most expensive, obviously that's what they should be. Massing them would still be prohibitive, due to them being capitol-only and expensive... but this boost is both thematic and greatly enhances their power.

2) Raise the cost of the myrmidon to 18. Boost hit points by one (13). Boost morale by two (15). Boost both attack and defense by one (12). Most of you have seen the movie Troy. Their portrayal of the myrmidons is somewhat generous, but there is no doubt the Mydmidon is supposed to be an elite fighter. These bonuses would reflect the power of the unit, while not losing the thematic short sword and bronze armor. There's no way these changes would bring them in line with einheres, or other top end infantry... but hopefully the myrmidons would resemble the expensive elite units they are supposed to portray.

3) Raise the cost of the Wind Lord to 350 gold. Add two levels of Air magic and the same +1 awe that the wind riders get. This would not make the Wind Lord the recruitable SC that the Tuatha or Drotts are, but would still be an extremely powerful unit. This is thematic, as Arcoscephale gets air gems with Golden Era. While he would be very expensive as compared to Drotts and Tuatha, the lance, awe and flying abilities probably compensate for the glamour, priest, and better magical powers of the others. This would be a difficult unit to balance, but I think it would be a good addition to the theme.

I'll see what I can do about whipping up a mod. It's 2:30am out here on the West Coast, but I'm off tomorrow and possibly by the time you read this I may have whipped something up. Let me know what you think of the ideas.

[ June 18, 2004, 10:27: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 11:47 AM

#modname "Golden Era Enhancement Mod"
By Peter Grauer aka Blitz
#description "This mod gives strong enhancements to Golden Era Arcoscephale, as well as the Arcoscephale national pretender, the shedu"
#icon "./empbanner.tga"
#domVersion 2.12

List of Changes (old values in brackets)

Wind Rider
- Awe +1 (0)

Myrmidon
- Cost raised to 18 (15)
- Morale boosted to 15 (13)
- Attack raised to 12 (11)
- Defense raised to 12 (11)
- Hit Points raised to 13 (12)

Myrmidon Champion
- Cost raised to 40
- Hit points raised to 15 (14)
- Morale Boosted to 16 (15)
- Attack raised to 13 (12)
- Defense raised to 13 (12)

Wind Lord

- cost raised to 400 (175)
- Awe +1 (0)
- Air magic level 2 (0)

Skeptic
- Stealth raised to 10 (0)

Shedu
- Encumberance lowered to 3 (4)
- Defense raised to 18 (10)
- Dominion raised to 4 (3)
- Protection raised to 15 (9)

#selectmonster 661
#enc 3
#def 18
#prot 15
#startdom 4
#end

#selectmonster 1077
#gcost 18
#hp 13
#mor 15
#att 12
#def 12
#end

#selectmonster 1071
#stealthy 10
#end

#selectmonster 1076
#gcost 40
#hp 15
#att 13
#def 13
#mor 16
#end

#selectmonster 1075
#gcost 400
#magicskill 1 2
#awe 1
#end

#selectmonster 1074
#awe 1
#end

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 11:52 AM

Took me an hour. Since you can't post file attatchments in this forum, I just pasted the modfile. Just copy it and paste into a textfile. Rename the textfile to goldenera.dm and place it in your \mods directory. The banner points to the banner from the empowerment mod, so if you want that picture download that mod.

I'm gonna email the beta of the mod to gandalf, and maybe he can put the zip on http://www.dom2minions.com/ until it's in a reasonably complete form, at which point I can send it to Illwinter.

Enjoy.

Chris Byler

June 18th, 2004, 03:24 PM

Why not start the Shedu with Astral 3 Earth 3, instead of 1? Let him be strong in those paths since he will pay dearly to have any others (and you're pretty much forced to buy Astral pretty high anyway to protect against Magic Duel). He already has a high base point cost, why doesn't he get anything much for it?

Limited magical versatility and item use is still a bit of a problem, but he can now much more cheaply get a level of magic power that can make him a contender on the battlefield doing something like Power of the Spheres, Summon Earthpower, Blade Wind x3. Compared to other battlefield mages he is pretty tough even without casting defensive buffs. So once the usefulness of body ethereal, stoneskin, attack rear is exhausted, he can start standing behind bodyguards and troops and casting powerful spells over them.

Oh, and those chariots that are so crappy? Not once the God casts Legions of Steel/Marble Warriors and Will of the Fates on them... Riches from Beneath will offset the problems of a mandatory sloth dominion, if you can afford it.

As for Golden Age: I like the idea of myrmidons being more of an elite unit in skills/morale. They may not have modern equipment but they can fight like the heroes of old http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif Awe on the wind riders seems cool too - and they *are* more expensive than Valkyries for little benefit. And I agree that Golden Age needs something magically to make up for the loss of the Astrologer, although I don't know what. Stronger or cheaper Mystics, a new mage, or maybe an arch-priestess with Nature 2 Holy 4 (making them a strong-priest nation)?

Hmm, I just had an idea. Give them the three Metal Adepts as capitol-only mages (perhaps a new capitol site, Metallic Tower?). They're astral and elemental, so they don't do anything a Mystic couldn't theoretically get; but they give you more predictability of what elements you get. Plus two of their elements are air and earth, which Golden Age Arco gets gems for. Best of all it requires almost no work to implement because the units already exist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Scott Hebert

June 18th, 2004, 03:48 PM

Um, yikes. I think you guys have missed the point of GE Arco.

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.

They lose the Astrologer, they gain the Philosopher. Both capital-only, with different foci. Oh, yes, they're not THAT much better than Sages... but no one gets Sages, do they? They're _clearly_ the best researchers in the game. No, they're not much good for anything but researching, but it's not like they'll be doing anything else.

They also have better access to Crystal Coins, so the loss of the Astrologer isn't so bad.

Clearly, GE Arco is supposed to be a magical powerhouse. Their units suffer by comparison.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get.

quantum_mechani

June 18th, 2004, 04:17 PM

I don't find GA Arco a weak theme overall, but I agree the wind rider needs something like awe to make it worth it.

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 04:22 PM

Asking why the units suck is like asking why Mictlan's units suck. Units aren't supposed to be GE's focus.
What then, is GE's focus in your opinion? Losing your best mage and gaining a great researcher? In case you haven't noticed, GA Arcoscephale has no abilities in Blood or Death. This means that unlike Mictan, they cannot hope to summon as good an army as mictan could. Earth summons are good, but the better ones are 5 earth, and your mages rarely come with more than 2E. Statues and clockwork horrors are nice, but they aren't devils and wights. The theme of GA seems to be research and flying creatures.

And I'm not even going to touch the Shedu changes, except to say that you're wack. Not even immobile Pretenders get what you're suggesting the Shedu can get. Ok let's look at how I turned the Shedu into the hands down best pretender in the game shall we?

1) Added protection, which becomes redundant once you research alteration 1.
2) Lowered Encumbrance to 3, which is 3 more than undeads have.
3) Boosted dominion to 4, which is the same as the Dagon, Divine Serpant, Lich Queen, and Virtue.
4) Significantly raised defense value.

If you believe these bonuses raise this horrible pretender chassis to the level of a Virtue, Nataraja, or Ghost King, I respectfully doubt your grasp of the game. The facts are, you can buy a Manticore and give it Earth/Astral 1 and still have a cheaper chassis with 50 point path costs than the Shedu. Let's recap.

1) The manticore also flies and has limited item slots.
2) It costs 0 points, not 125
3) You can get the same Astral/Earth levels on a manticore, and save 25 points... while retaining 50 point paths in other areas.
4) While having lower HP and 6 protection vs 8, the manticore has higher strength, attack, defense, precision, in addition to 100% poison resistance as well as a poisonous stinger and bite instead of a hoof.

Ask yourself... how good is a manticore? Would you use a manticore with 18 defense instead of 12? That's what this "new" Shedu is. A manticore with 18 defense. God forbid this monster be unleashed on the Dom 2 community!

Scott Hebert

June 18th, 2004, 04:24 PM

The Shedu seems very weak at the moment, but I would just lower the point cost, and/or make it two earth two astral.Well, the Shedu isn't good late-game, but what nonhumanoid Pretender is?

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...

The Shedu is not part of the problem here.

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 04:40 PM

Oh, and those chariots that are so crappy? Not once the God casts Legions of Steel/Marble Warriors and Will of the Fates on them... Trust me, they are pretty bad. Even with all that stuff on them, they are going to get annihilated. Imagine if you will... on one side of the battlefield we have 10 chariots. On the other side of the battlefield we have 5 knights. Same gold cost, but the knights are about 3x cheaper in resources. You cast whatever spells you want, but the knights win. When you add in a squad of chariots, the idea is probably to flank and crush troops in the back. They really are not that good in the middle of the formation, although they can do a little damage.

In MP you aren't going to be able to run free into your opponent's backfield. You are going to run into resistance, be it knights (probably) or infantry (almost as bad). 10 protection and 18 defense on a 30 gold, 41 resource unit simply does not cut it in reality.

With that said, I don't think you can boost chariots much. I think a couple in a big army can do a little damage, but boosting them would make GA a little overpowered. I chose to focus on the wind riders, as they were the theme's signature unit, and a solution like awe seemed like a good fit. Awe is an incredibly powerful ability against independant troops, although it's usefulness against enemy elite troopers or mindless creations is somewhat lessened. I have a lot of experience with awe, as the Virtue is often my pretender of choice. I have a suspicion that awe +1 may be too high and it will have to be lowered to +0, but time will tell.

You guys seem to ignore the fact that the Shedu can basically destroy any independent Province he wants, from about turn 3. And this is for the nation best at removing afflictions...Actually the Shedu hits 100 fatigue after about 10 tramples and dies from exhaustion, regardless of his hit points. This is not apparent from looking at his stats, but if you think you can use him like a Wurm out of the box you are sadly mistaken.

Honestly the Shedu mod was an afterthought. I wouldn't use the "new" Shedu either, and I'm temped to just remove him so we can focus on the more important units in the wind rider and myrmidon.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]

June 18th, 2004, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Trust me, they are pretty bad. Even with all that stuff on them, they are going to get annihilated. Imagine if you will... on one side of the battlefield we have 10 chariots. On the other side of the battlefield we have 5 knights. Same gold cost, but the knights are about 3x cheaper in resources. You cast whatever spells you want, but the knights win. When you add in a squad of chariots, the idea is probably to flank and crush troops in the back. They really are not that good in the middle of the formation, although they can do a little damage.Heh. This is laughable. "Chariots are no good when the unit most commonly to counter them is around". And 10 Chariots buffed by Mystics will stomp the hell out of those Knights. Maybe in your experience they don't, but in my experience playing GE in MP they do.

In MP you aren't going to be able to run free into your opponent's backfield. You are going to run into resistance, be it knights (probably) or infantry (almost as bad). 10 protection and 18 defense on a 30 gold, 41 resource unit simply does not cut it in reality.You do know there is a "Attack Cavalry" command right?

With that said, I don't think you can boost chariots much. I think a couple in a big army can do a little damage, but boosting them would make GA a little overpowered.Couple in a big army? Meh. Chariots are one of the only saving graces for GE. The Myrmidons can't be gathered enough to make as much of an impact as the Chariots. Yes, they have weaknesses, but as soon as you counter that weakness, Chariots will mow down a good % of other national troops but don't have the inherent weaknesses of Elephants.

[ June 18, 2004, 15:51: Message edited by: Zen ]

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 04:57 PM

Couple in a big army? Meh. Chariots are one of the only saving graces for GE. The Myrmidons can't be gathered enough to make as much of an impact as the Chariots. Yes, they have weaknesses, but as soon as you counter that weakness, Chariots will mow down a good % of other national troops but don't have the inherent weaknesses of Elephants Well I do recall saying that I didn't think they needed a boost at all, Zen. You seem to favor them more than I, but I think we're agreed that a strong, unroutable national trampler would be a little too strong.

"Chariots are no good when the unit most commonly to counter them is around". And 10 Chariots buffed by Mystics will stomp the hell out of those Knights And those 5 knights buffed by Inquisitors? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where chariots charge free into any decent MP player's backfield without first meeting some kind of mounted reistance.

June 18th, 2004, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Well I do recall saying that I didn't think they needed a boost at all, Zen. You seem to favor them more than I, but I think we're agreed that a strong, unroutable national trampler would be a little too strong.That's exactly what you can make them. Unbreakable, 20 Prot, Air Shielded, Lucky, Ethereal Trampling Crew with decent MR. That is one of Arco's strengths.
And those 5 knights buffed by Inquisitors? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where chariots charge free into any decent MP player's backfield without first meeting some kind of mounted reistance. Buffed by Inquisitors? Meaning with Sermons and Fantatisims? Or do you mean Grand Masters, with Luck and Ethereality?

It's happens quite a bit for me. They might meet resistance some of the time, but this isn't a flaw in the Chariots, but a flaw in your opponent. Chariots move fast enough and over infantry to get to a back row quite quickly. My only issue is their fatigue, which when I play GE I circumvent by making sure I can at least a few priestesses casting Relief.

Scott Hebert

June 18th, 2004, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
What then, is GE's focus in your opinion? Losing your best mage and gaining a great researcher? Magical smack-down. Whether that be battle magic, summons, or forging items.

In case you haven't noticed, GA Arcoscephale has no abilities in Blood or Death. This means that unlike Mictan, they cannot hope to summon as good an army as mictan could.First, it's Golden Era, not Golden Age. Second, no, they don't get as good summons as Mictlan can, but they do get better national troops. So I see no reason why GE Arco should get summons 'as good as' Mictlan.

Earth summons are good, but the better ones are 5 earth, and your mages rarely come with more than 2E. Statues and clockwork horrors are nice, but they aren't devils and wights. The theme of GA seems to be research and flying creatures. They certainly research better than anyone else in the game, and get _the_ most versatile mage in the game to make use of it.

Ok let's look at how I turned the Shedu into the hands down best pretender in the game shall we?First, I did not say he became the best pretender in the game. Simply that he doesn't need to be altered in the least.

If you believe these bonuses raise this horrible pretender chassis to the level of a Virtue, Nataraja, or Ghost King, For early taking of Independents, I'd rather have the Shedu than ANY of these (yes, including the Nataraja).

I respectfully doubt your grasp of the game. The facts are, you can buy a Manticore and give it Earth/Astral 1 and still have a cheaper chassis with 50 point path costs than the Shedu. Let's recap. This fact is also wrong. Ignoring the GROSS hp difference between the two, I don't think you know how buying paths work.

If all you want is level 1 Earth and Astral, sure, the Manticore is 25 points cheaper. The stat differences are rather large (you cannot ignore the 85 base hp difference). Getting back to paths, though, if you intend to increase the magic paths at all, the Shedu will gain points relative to the Manticore. Say that you want 2 Earth and 2 Astral on the Manticore and the Shedu. For the Manticore, this comes to:

50 + 50 + 16 + 16 = 132 points.

For the Shedu, this comes to:

0 + 0 + 8 + 8 = 16 points. Add in the 125 base cost, and you get 141.

The savings you made on the Manticore have basically vanished at this point, and no one is going to take a combat Pretender with only 2 Astral.

You seem to have also missed the point that the Shedu is a size-6 trampler. It can easily kill more people per turn than the Manticore, thus routing people faster, thus taking less damage (and he has more HPs to start).

1) The manticore also flies and has limited item slots. Which is why I think it's useful at least for a comparison.

2) It costs 0 points, not 125For no magic.

3) You can get the same Astral/Earth levels on a manticore, and save 25 points... while retaining 50 point paths in other areas.The savings is only if you stay at 1, which is not MP-viable.

4) While having lower HP and 6 protection vs 8, the manticore has higher strength, attack, defense, precision, in addition to 100% poison resistance as well as a poisonous stinger and bite instead of a hoof.And the Shedu is a flying trampler.

Ask yourself... how good is a manticore? Would you use a manticore with 18 defense instead of 12? That's what this "new" Shedu is. A manticore with 18 defense. God forbid this monster be unleashed on the Dom 2 community! [/QB]With all due respect, you've missed several things in your argument. Considering what you've missed, I wonder if you've ever even used a Shedu.

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 05:23 PM

With all due respect, you've missed several things in your argument. Considering what you've missed, I wonder if you've ever even used a Shedu I'm not sure if you are trolling or just being argumentitive, but at this point I'll just suggest you not use the mod =).

I think most players would agree with my assesment of the Shedu as an absolutely horrible example of a national pretender, but you clearly are not one of them and seem determined not to be convinced otherwise.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Blitz:
Well I do recall saying that I didn't think they needed a boost at all, Zen. You seem to favor them more than I, but I think we're agreed that a strong, unroutable national trampler would be a little too strong.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's exactly what you can make them. Unbreakable, 20 Prot, Air Shielded, Lucky, Ethereal Trampling Crew with decent MR. That is one of Arco's strengths.
I find this strategy to be very effective with Elephants, but less so with chariots. I did post a rather long newbie tutorial on base Arcoscephale that went into rough detail about this.

I'd be more interested to know your views on the wind rider modifications, Zen. Since it sounds like you've played a lot of GA in multiplayer, I'd like to hear what you think. I did read a few Posts where you shared my views on the wind rider vs valkrie issue, but do you think +awe on a bless troop is potentially game-breaking or do you like the change?

June 18th, 2004, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
I'd be more interested to know your views on the wind rider modifications, Zen. Since it sounds like you've played a lot of GA in multiplayer, I'd like to hear what you think. I did read a few Posts where you shared my views on the wind rider vs valkrie issue, but do you think +awe on a bless troop is potentially game-breaking or do you like the change? I was trying to avoid that issue. I do think the Wind Rider is not cost effective. I do think that they are strong with vast potential to do quite a bit in a game if you are able to use them right.

I can't say as I think Awe is the best move in the world. Because Awe is very strong against independants but as the game progresses it becomes more and more useless. I also feel that awe should be limited so that it is not so very common. If anything I'd like to give the Icarians Awe +0 so they might be useful for their cost and lowering the cost of the Wind Riders to something more feasible to even bless (100 is my gut instinct).

One other thing, while I think giving Wind Lords magic might be good, I don't know if it should be air. Then they would look and feel sort of like Vans. (Which GE already feels somewhat like already)

Edit: This might be because whenever I think of any pegasus type of thing, I think of Clash of the Titans. I saw it too mucha s I kid I think and it has distorted my perception of a few key mythological creatures (Medusa's and Pegasus as well as whatever Caliban was).

[ June 18, 2004, 16:40: Message edited by: Zen ]

Scott Hebert

June 18th, 2004, 05:54 PM

I'm not sure if you are trolling or just being argumentitive, but at this point I'll just suggest you not use the mod =).I think it's safe to say that I don't troll, having been given ample opportunity and not taking it. About the most trollish thing I've done in this thread is to point out that it's Golden Era, not Golden Age (which I have now done twice).

I think most players would agree with my assesment of the Shedu as an absolutely horrible example of a national pretender, but you clearly are not one of them and seem determined not to be convinced otherwise.No, I'm not going to be convinced with the arguments you've put forward so far, especially when they get basic facts about the game wrong (such as how buying paths work).

To be specific, if you have no levels in a path, the first level will cost the Path cost listed for the Pretender. The second level will cost 16 points. If you have 1 in a Path already, the second level (the first one you purchase) will cost 8 points.

To be fair, though, my initial post was reacting more to other people's comments about giving the Shedu EEESSS or EESS, which is completely unbalanced. Your mod, as I see it, wouldn't change much, but I shirk away from giving a Pretender with _that_ many HPs and _that_ much combat potential a base Dominion of 4.

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 05:57 PM

I can't say as I think Awe is the best move in the world. Because Awe is very strong against independants but as the game progresses it becomes more and more useless. I also feel that awe should be limited so that it is not so very common. If anything I'd like to give the Icarians Awe +0 so they might be useful for their cost and lowering the cost of the Wind Riders to something more feasible to even bless (100 is my gut instinct).

One other thing, while I think giving Wind Lords magic might be good, I don't know if it should be air. Then they would look and feel sort of like Vans. (Which GE already feels somewhat like already) You are definately right about awe having diminishing returns, but as you know it's incredibly powerful against independants and many nationals. I'm playing a game in another window now and my small group of 4 wind lords are doing very well in early expansion. Without awe they die far too easily for a 125 gold unit.

And you are definately right about the Wind Lord resembling Vans (and Tuatha), but if you are going to give them magic, but not air... then what? After all, it's a Wind Lord =). I'm not sure any of the other paths would be appropriate for thematic reasons. The new lords are pretty damn impressive. I've only recruited one, and he's easily as good as a Vanadrott... but obviously a Hangadrott (with soul vortex), or Tuatha (regeneration, elemental fortitude) is going to be better at the same price. The WL does fly with a lance and awe, however. I was hesitant to make him as powerful as either of the existing air SC's, and purposely overcosted him in relation.

I also feel that awe should be limited so that it is not so very common You are right that the devs purposely made awe a very "special" trait. I believe only the dryad hoplite has it on a national troop. I think it's more thematicly apropriate on a pegasus than it would be on a lot of other troops, however. I tried to pick an ability that strengthened the unit while fitting the flavor of the text and picture. Pegasus are pretty =).

Ironhawk

June 18th, 2004, 06:58 PM

Clearly there is a difference of opinion here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

But I have to say that I tend to agree that GE Arco is underpowered. Why don't the people who support GE Arco as a viable theme just list out thier strategy. early, mid, late game, etc. Be specific and if it looks good on paper and works in some test games then the subject can be laid to rest....

HotNifeThruButr

June 18th, 2004, 08:46 PM

While I'm not an expert on Golden Era, and I know the main subject are wind riders, I think you could have taken a better approach to myrmidons. Myrmidons are supposed to be soldiers who always follow their superior's orders (I don't know if that definition evolved in time or was a trait that the classic mythological myrmidons had). I think they should be given 50 morale to make them powerful tanks. I think a strategy would be to have myrmidon stand in front of the battle with attack closest, while chariots in the back hold and attack. The myrmidon fight enemy infantry to a standstill, since they are powerful defensively that way and still have crap attacks. When the chariots move out, they get to make their attack before the enemy could respond, since this is a turnbased game and they've already wasted a round of swings on your rock hard myrmidon.

On the issue of Wind Riders, we musn't forget that they can fly AND have a lance. Doesn't that make them similar to a nuclear warhead against spell dependent SC's?

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 08:58 PM

On the issue of Wind Riders, we musn't forget that they can fly AND have a lance. Doesn't that make them similar to a nuclear warhead against spell dependent SC's?
Most SC's are erthreal or wear a robe of erthrealness, so it's not as effective as it would first seem. But yes, they still pretty good in that role.

While I'm not an expert on Golden Era, and I know the main subject are wind riders, I think you could have taken a better approach to myrmidons. Myrmidons are supposed to be soldiers who always follow their superior's orders (I don't know if that definition evolved in time or was a trait that the classic mythological myrmidons had). I think they should be given 50 morale to make them powerful tanks.I agree somewhat with your logic here. My concept of a myrmidon is an elite, skilled, brave warrior... who unfortunately has a crappy sword and antique armor. I gave them a fairly significant morale boost as it is. I think the developers want to reserve ultra-high morale for mindless units such as undead... and berserkers. I had toyed with giving the myrmidons a berserker flag, but didn't feel it was either needed or appropriate to the theme.

Scott Hebert

June 18th, 2004, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
Myrmidons are supposed to be soldiers who always follow their superior's orders (I don't know if that definition evolved in time or was a trait that the classic mythological myrmidons had).IIRC, the Myrmidons in Greek myth were a Groups of soldiers who were turned into humans from ants (hence the "Myr" prefix). This would explain their extremely good morale and discipline.

I think they should be given 50 morale to make them powerful tanks. I think a strategy would be to have myrmidon stand in front of the battle with attack closest, while chariots in the back hold and attack. The myrmidon fight enemy infantry to a standstill, since they are powerful defensively that way and still have crap attacks.An increase in morale would be good, but 50 is far too high. That is Mindless level, IIRC. I can't recall any normal troops that have morale higher than 15. Giving them a 14 or 15 morale I think would be just as good as 50, and be believable.

When the chariots move out, they get to make their attack before the enemy could respond, since this is a turnbased game and they've already wasted a round of swings on your rock hard myrmidon.I don't use Chariots, so I don't know how to evaluate this.

On the issue of Wind Riders, we musn't forget that they can fly AND have a lance. Doesn't that make them similar to a nuclear warhead against spell dependent SC's?Not particularly. It does make them extremely powerful against troops in general, though. When you consider they have _3_ attacks, and they fly, a Fire blessing in particular sounds like it would be devastating. IME, they are, if deployed in enough numbers (say, 10+). You could use a Moloch with your starting troops to take out provinces until they come on-line. It sounds like a beginning strategy to me.

Norfleet

June 18th, 2004, 09:15 PM

If you gave them 50 morale, they would also dissolve when they lost their commander.

June 18th, 2004, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
You are definately right about awe having diminishing returns, but as you know it's incredibly powerful against independants and many nationals. I'm playing a game in another window now and my small group of 4 wind lords are doing very well in early expansion. Without awe they die far too easily for a 125 gold unit.As I've thought about it more (as work grinds on) I have come up with the conclusion that Wind Riders would benefit from:

Round Shield -> Kite Shield (+1 Prot, +1 Def, Harder to nail with Missile Weapons)
Hit Points 13 -> 15 (Based on Knights)
Strength 11 -> 12 (Again Based on Knights)

This, IMO makes them more in line with the rest of the units (Knights Mostly). Would I buy them now? Probably not. But they are slightly more survivable.

And you are definately right about the Wind Lord resembling Vans (and Tuatha), but if you are going to give them magic, but not air... then what? After all, it's a Wind Lord =). I'm not sure any of the other paths would be appropriate for thematic reasons. The new lords are pretty damn impressive. I've only recruited one, and he's easily as good as a Vanadrott... but obviously a Hangadrott (with soul vortex), or Tuatha (regeneration, elemental fortitude) is going to be better at the same price. The WL does fly with a lance and awe, however. I was hesitant to make him as powerful as either of the existing air SC's, and purposely overcosted him in relation.I just don't want it to turn into the 'Vanheim - Arco' which is what it feels like if you gave the Wind Lord 2A. I don't actually feel like the Wind Lord needs to be any more 'magical'. Maybe the Icarian Commander should have 2 Earth?

Blitz

June 18th, 2004, 10:58 PM

This, IMO makes them more in line with the rest of the units (Knights Mostly). Would I buy them now? Probably not. But they are slightly more survivable. I understand the concept of taking baby steps in a mod, and not completely changing the way the theme plays... but I wasn't really going for slightly more survivable. I'd really like to bring the wind riders up to their comparably costed peers (Neifel Giant, Black hunter). I like the kite shield idea, but it's a little like giving the myrmidions broad swords. Is it play balanced? Probably. But there weren't broad swords back in ancient greece, and things like that are important to the developers. We've seen lots of examples where play balance was sacrificed for cosmetic or accuracy reasons. I'd like to keep the weaponry and armor as is, and look at other ways to improve the units.

I just don't want it to turn into the 'Vanheim - Arco' which is what it feels like if you gave the Wind Lord 2A. I don't actually feel like the Wind Lord needs to be any more 'magical'. Aside from the similarities to drotts, there's also a very important balancing concern. In the game I've been running all day, I've pretty well stopped making any units aside from Wind Lords. They are everywhere, with flying and cloud trapeeze. They don't seem to die when given even the simplest gear (I gave most of them luck pendant and barkskin amulet). Even at 400 gold, it's probably too powerful a unit to include in the mod, which is too bad as I've become quite fond of them. The issue of the synergy between a recruitable SC and the power of the priestess is also a little troubling.

What would you think of giving them both air and earth level 1? Obviously this allows both ironskin and mirror image, but not mistform and cloud trapeeze. It's similar, but different than Drotts and Tuathas.

I just don't want it to turn into the 'Vanheim - Arco' which is what it feels like if you gave the Wind Lord 2A. I don't actually feel like the Wind Lord needs to be any more 'magical'. Maybe the Icarian Commander should have 2 Earth?
Well you would have to raise his cost considerably, as he'd be a pretty solid little SC in his own right (summon earthpower/ironskin/attack rear). There is also the possibility of modding either the Skeptic or Engineer. Giving engineers EEE would really open up the construction summons, and you'd have a lot easier access to mechanical men and the like. Of course you could argue that this too is too Vanheimish I guess. It would also solve the very annoying problem of engineers always being active when you use the (N)ext commander hotkey.

There's definately a lot you can do with the skeptic and engineer within the bounds of the mod. Both look reasonably mage-like, and changing the name and stats is trivial. Unfortunately we're never going to get more than 2 people to agree on what such hypothetical mage should look like, but I'm open to suggestions.

June 18th, 2004, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
I understand the concept of taking baby steps in a mod, and not completely changing the way the theme plays... but I wasn't really going for slightly more survivable. I'd really like to bring the wind riders up to their comparably costed peers (Neifel Giant, Black hunter). I like the kite shield idea, but it's a little like giving the myrmidions broad swords. Is it play balanced? Probably. But there weren't broad swords back in ancient greece, and things like that are important to the developers. We've seen lots of examples where play balance was sacrificed for cosmetic or accuracy reasons. I'd like to keep the weaponry and armor as is, and look at other ways to improve the units.You can't compare them to Niefel Giants, even though they are comparable costwise. Why? Because Giants and Niefelhiem in particular are built that way and they need the survivability of the Niefel Giant (Even though they are not build very frequently). Black Hunters run into a different issue. If they didn't have Sacred Black Spiders when they died, they wouldn't be in the same class as 'cost-effectiveness'. And neither Niefels nor Black Spiders can fly, thus the flying unit has to be weaker because of the huge advantage of flying both tactically and strategically.

If you don't like changing the weaponry, then you can just modify the base stats. This isn't going to help against missiles, but maybe that is okay

HP 13 > 15
Defense 14 (base) > 15 (Total Defense 17)
Strength 11 > 12
Cost 125 > 115 Gold

Now. Those again are minor changes. But lets see the impact as the game progresses:

Protection (the spell) = 23 Prot
5 Stars Exp = 22 Defense (nothing to sneeze at)

Now they may be worth it, if equipped with a decent blessing. And at least some small form of Air is probabaly key for initial expansion.

The issue of the synergy between a recruitable SC and the power of the priestess is also a little troubling.This is exactly why you wouldn't want to. Imagine having Neifel Jarls with Arco? Not pretty, which is exactly what you are promoting here.

What would you think of giving them both air and earth level 1? Obviously this allows both ironskin and mirror image, but not mistform and cloud trapeeze. It's similar, but different than Drotts and Tuathas.Quite honestly I wouldn't want to kill diversity so very much. Just give the exact changes that I gave to the normal Wind Lord to the commander and he'd still be fine. Having magic casting power on a mounted unit is great, but I don't think it should be given to flying mounted commanders.

Well you would have to raise his cost considerably, as he'd be a pretty solid little SC in his own right (summon earthpower/ironskin/attack rear).The more I thought about it, the less I liked it. What I ended up thinking would be good for Icarian's (and commanders) is giving them a Javelin. Suddenly you have a Air mobile missile squad. It makes their quick strike capability enough that you would consider using them for their fragility (also gives them time to soften up their opponents before they get slaughtered).

There's definately a lot you can do with the skeptic and engineer within the bounds of the mod. Both look reasonably mage-like, and changing the name and stats is trivial. Unfortunately we're never going to get more than 2 people to agree on what such hypothetical mage should look like, but I'm open to suggestions. If you could unrestrict the philosopher from the capital they would be fine. And have the engineer given either a Forge bonus (Cruel fate, no magic but can forge well. Hello Forge of the Ancients) and perhaps a Bonus to Alchemy akin to an Alchemist.

It wouldn't make the Skeptic any more attractive, but I think he's fine as he is, even with crappy stealth.

Endoperez

June 19th, 2004, 01:22 AM

HotNifeThruButr

June 19th, 2004, 01:37 AM

I know myrmidon are just (the "just" part, more or less) ant people, but I think they're also supposed to be the ultimate soldiers in terms of discipline. I mean, they're crazy, you tell one of them to fight the whole Abysian army, and he'll be out there. You tell on to jump, he asks you how high, what angle, and whether or not to take wind resistance into account.

I thought it could be something unique about myrmidon, to set them apart from all the other elite, slow infantry.

Just a thought.

"myrmidon A faithful follower who carries out orders without question." - Dictionary.com

Blitz

June 19th, 2004, 01:54 AM

Shedu was dramatically increased. I'd like to read your comments on it too. The ones about Golden Age were a nice read, but I can't comment them. I'm not experienced enough to see how good a unit is without testing it in battle first.Well the main limitation of the Shedu remains... that you only get head and 2 misc slots. In order to make him into a viable SC choice you have to take 5 more levels of astral (to combat magic deul), then at least level 3 earth. He can't use any lifedrain weapons, and as a trampler they aren't too useful anyway. He'll never be able to wear boots of quickness or jade armor, so if you want him hasted you need to pay 80 design points for water 1. He's never going to be a world-class SC, so increasing his combat statistics really only enhance his value as an early-game trampling expander.

The armor bonus is redundant with stoneskin, which is available early, and castable with his base chassis. The defense value is definately big, as is boosting his domain to the highest level. However, I doubt these abilities offset the drawbacks of less equipment slots.

In comparison, the Virtue...

- Has the same path cost, and costs 75 points less.
- She (now) has the same dominion, as well as two excellent abilities (lightning resistance/Awe 4!!).
- She only has level 2 air, rather than two paths, but this since he's 75 points cheaper on an 80-point chassis, getting a second path (of your choice mind you) costs you only 5 points more than what you would have to pay for a Shedu.
- She has a full compliment of equipment slots, and comes standard with a nice flambeau

On the flip side the Shedu is a beast at 230 hit points. However, I think you would find him to be limited as a lategame combat SC... however I think he would do quite well as a caster SC, similar to a monolith. When you compare him to other (non crappy) national pretenders, I think he's still strictly second-tier. The Nataraja is clearly superior (and available to Arcoscophale). The Allfather (at the same cost mind you) is clearly superior. The Carrion Dragon (50 points), is in another class. Now he may be comparable to other national choices such as the Jade Emperor or Mother of Tuathas, two similarily priced national pretenders.

However, by maintaining his 80-point paths and limited item slot compliment, it's almost certian that he'll never completely excel at either fighting or casting. At this point he'll make a good expansion aid for the first few turns, then probably retire to the library to make golems... showing up to cast a few big spells in the more important battles. I actually considered lowering his price (to 50), or his path cost (to 40) in addition to raising his combat values. Limiting his item slots has a crippling effect on his overall usefulness... given these severe restrictions on usable items, he has to be great in other areas. Maybe filling the "early trampler, lategame golem maker" niche will be enough... but somehow I doubt it =).

I'm open to suggestions on how to make him somewhat on par with the better avatars available to Arcoscephale... namely the Virtue, Nataraja, Lady of Fortune, Prince of Death, and Ghost King. Since Arcoscephale has access to all of the non-unique avatars that I consider in the top tier... you have to make the Shedu one of the best pretender gods in the game, or else regardless of his strength he's not going to be used since Arcoscephale has such diverse choices in this area. How to accomplish that while maintaining the general idea Illwinter had for the Shedu (trampling flier, limited magic, no item slots), is the question. He was already the highest hit point, non immobile pretender in the game (tied with the kraken, which was aquatic and of course dosen't fly). Even as a flying, durable, trampling chassis with magical paths in both astral and earth, he saw limited or no use. This speaks volumes about the power of items in this game.

[ June 18, 2004, 13:24: Message edited by: Blitz ]

PvK

June 19th, 2004, 02:29 AM

Seems to me that there are some nations and units and tactics that are harder to learn to take advantage of than others, but that once they're learned, they are just as good, or better, compared to the easy and obvious nations/units/tactics.

Myrmidons don't look bad to me at all. They look quite good, really, as slow well-armored heavy infantry with not so heavy weapons.

Those look like the most durable chariots I've ever seen. Most chariots are very fragile, but are good for inducing panic in the rear. Most chariots aren't designed to be shock troops, although as was pointed out, with buffs, GE chariots could be quite strong.

The flying warriors are probably like most flying units - easy to get killed, but deadly if used in sufficient numbers and timed properly.

Yes, the Shedu can fatigue out and be swarmed to death, and becomes weaker in comparison to late game units. And the astral is a two-sided ability due to magic duels. I'd say it's a dang good thing those weaknesses are there, however! Remember what I said about numbers being important to rear-flyers? Try combining a flying shedu with a whole bunch of flying troops set to guard commander... suddenly it's much much much harder to overwhelm the shedu or calmly deal with the fliers. Try to strike the shedu before it buffs up with astral and other spells? Good luck with a bunch of fliers guarding him while he does so!

Meanwhile, the research bonus, the mages, the skeptics, the healers, etc., are also great things that can really help out when used well.

If there are several players who haven't figured out how to use something effectively, by all means try mods to make them better. But with players who know how to use the old Versions, they may end up being overpowered, and after the players who didn't know, get some experience, they may start to learn the subtler tricks too.

It's at that point that the mod changes to remove things that got the units killed when they were used bluntly, may end up with units that have too few weaknesses when used skillfully.

I don't claim to have figured everything out, or to have much GE Arco experience or anything. I have done a bit with fliers though and have seen them be extremely powerful or extremely weak, hinging mostly on numbers and timing. When I see people saying they think tough fliers are too weak, I tend to think they probably saw them strike with too few and at the wrong time or against the wrong target. Fliers who can do well even when sent in low numbers against strong foes at the wrong time, seem like they could be too strong.

PvK

Stormbinder

June 19th, 2004, 02:36 AM

Without geting deeper into the arguments, I would like to say that I agree with Blitz's assesment that GE in general is weaker than the standart Arco in cometitive MP. A pity, because I think this is one of the most interesing national themes in priciple. Maybe it'll get some love from devs in the future, as Blood of humans and other themes got in the past.

[ June 19, 2004, 01:46: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Nagot Gick Fel

June 19th, 2004, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I know myrmidon are just (the "just" part, more or less) ant people, but I think they're also supposed to be the ultimate soldiers in terms of discipline. I mean, they're crazy, you tell one of them to fight the whole Abysian army, and he'll be out there. You tell on to jump, he asks you how high, what angle, and whether or not to take wind resistance into account.

I thought it could be something unique about myrmidon, to set them apart from all the other elite, slow infantry.

Just a thought.

"myrmidon A faithful follower who carries out orders without question." - Dictionary.com And as Scott rightly pointed out, they're half-ant half-man. Thus formerly mindless beings that were given a brain. An interesting way to simulate this would be to give them 30 morale.

And, since ants come with some natural protection, probably raise the Myrmidons' base prot high enough to give them the natural equivalent to a 'full leather' or 'full ring mail' armor - that should be around ~10 I guess.

That should be enough to make them a very distinctive unit on their own. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

June 19th, 2004, 11:00 AM

Slightly OT:
In Greek myth, Myrmidons (from Greek myrmex = ant) were the people of Aiacos, father of Pelleus and grandfather of Achilles. Aiacos was one of Zeus' favorite sons, and he asked his father to give him a people that are as dilligent as the ants he saw climbing on the tree nearby, so Zeus turned those ants into men. They are not halfmen, just men who are attributed the qualities of ants (dilligence, bravery, unity, etc.).

Nagot Gick Fel

June 19th, 2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by HJ:
They are not halfmen, just men who are attributed the qualities of ants (dilligence, bravery, unity, etc.). Yep, I know the story - my house is filled with essays on mythologies from all around the world from cellar to roof! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I didn't meant halfmen in the sense that minotaurs are half-bull half-man in their physical shape. Just that, as former ants that were turned into men, they might share attributes from both species.

HotNifeThruButr

June 19th, 2004, 10:00 PM

nit picky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

June 19th, 2004, 10:01 PM

If that bothers you, you're probably playing a wrong game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Blitz

June 19th, 2004, 11:43 PM

Meanwhile, the research bonus, the mages, the skeptics, the healers, etc., are also great things that can really help out when used well.

If there are several players who haven't figured out how to use something effectively, by all means try mods to make them better. But with players who know how to use the old Versions, they may end up being overpowered, and after the players who didn't know, get some experience, they may start to learn the subtler tricks too. I'll try not to bristle at being painted as a novice Arcoscophile player =). Arcoscophile is my race of choice, and I've played both it and golden era extensively. While players such as Zen have rightly pointed out that the mystic is a very good support mage, that fact does not override the fact that the golden era units are far inferior to the standard arcoscophile army.

No one is saying that Golden Era is unplayable. What most people will agree with is that the units are, when taken as a whole, inferior to the vannila troops, and therefore there is little incentive to use the theme, save for personal interest. If indeed the idea is for players to use less swords and more sorcery, then why take away the astrologer? With the astrologer goes the little blood and death magic that arcoscophile had. That may seem insignificant at first, but having no access to death magic at all really sucks. The earth summons are strictly second-tier to blood and death, and mystics aren't exactly the most efficient mages to use for elemental summons anyway. Don't forget that you are going to need a serious combat pretender to make up for your early military weaknesses.

The wind riders are devestating in numbers, but the fact is that they are extremely expensive. Yes, a force of 20 will destroy any back row, but that's 2500 gold! Surely there are better ways to spend 2500 gold than on 20 fragile fliers.

What I believe the awe ability does is enable players to use wind riders in smaller numbers. Massed wind riders is a losing strategy, even with a strong bless effect and awe. The awe ability reduces the attrition rate of wind riders against both independands and meleeing archers. Having tested the mod for about a day, I've decided I really like the results thus far. I wasn't as pleased with the "improved" wind lord. Most of the points Zen made were correct. He's basicly a flying Vanadrott, which made him far more effective than 3-4 regular riders. I'll probably restore his cost and remove the air magic in the final Version of the mod.

[ June 19, 2004, 23:17: Message edited by: Blitz ]

PvK

June 20th, 2004, 07:58 PM

I don't question your Arco experience. How about your Ulm and massed flier experience? Having played a lot of Ulm and a fair amount (but very successful) with fliers, I see two bits of potential:

1) The Myrmidons compare well to Ulm heavy infantry. Shielded, very high prot. They are more expensive than Ulm HI, but they are also elite and have an excellent morale (Ulm morale is bad). In sufficient numbers, they should give a very solid center (which IME harmonizes with flying into the enemy rear). Comparing to Ulm, you've got different but similarly good HI, without the low morale and weak magic of Ulm. Does Ulm look impossibly weak to you?

2) The Icarids do look weak, but the blessed Wind Riders, Wind Lord, and Ircarid Champion (with items), ESPECIALLY combined with a Shedu (!), could I think be made into a nearly unstoppable stomp rear force. They just need enough critical mass to overwhelm. Meanwhile, you have a sold force of heavy infantry to hit them from the other side. I don't think that needs much improvement, but rather, mass and ... timing. Probably try to time the fliers to hit the rear shortly after the Myrmidons engage the main battle line. In my experience, you can provide mass to your strong fliers with weaker fliers - which I would expect to be nicely filled by the ordinary Icarids - they are the "cannon fodder" of the flying elite. Expect to lose a few, but they should be a force multiplier by keeping your elite fliers from getting overwhelmed even if they are flying into a large enemy force.

If the fliers become so strong that they can "survive" even when facing overwhelming numbers, then they may be entirely unstoppable when used in a strong combined force. Especially if you throw a Shedu into the mix as well.

PvK

Blitz

June 20th, 2004, 08:45 PM

I don't question your Arco experience. How about your Ulm and massed flier experience? The nerfect VQ has somewhat diminished my liking for BF ulm, and the other two themes don't appeal to me... So I wouldn't consider myself an Ulm expert by any stretch of the imagination. But I love fliers. I use Vanheim almost exclusively in MP these days, due to their amazing combination of Einheres, Valkries, Vans, combat magic, the best pretender god available, and the second best recruitable SC's (I'd rank the recuperating, regenerating, elemental fortituded, cloud trapeezing, mistformed Tuatha #1).

1) The Myrmidons compare well to Ulm heavy infantry. Shielded, very high prot. They are more expensive than Ulm HI, but they are also elite and have an excellent morale (Ulm morale is bad). In sufficient numbers, they should give a very solid center (which IME harmonizes with flying into the enemy rear). Comparing to Ulm, you've got different but similarly good HI, without the low morale and weak magic of Ulm. Does Ulm look impossibly weak to you Unfortunately you are missing one very important point. The Myrmidons are equipped with a short sword. Damage 5, length 1, attack 0, defense 0. It's a good thing they have better than average morale, because even broadsword infantry get a riptose chance. This, combined with a massive 8 encumbrance makes their very good basic stats decieving. Combine that with their higher cost in both resources (35 under sloth) and coin, and this is not a comprable unit to Ulm in real-world terms. And Ulm isn't exactly the state of the art in HI anyway. But the most limiting factor is of course their excessive resource cost. They require more resources than any human HI in the game, save the Zweihander.

2) The Icarids do look weak, but the blessed Wind Riders, Wind Lord, and Ircarid Champion (with items), ESPECIALLY combined with a Shedu (!), could I think be made into a nearly unstoppable stomp rear force. They just need enough critical mass to overwhelm. Meanwhile, you have a sold force of heavy infantry to hit them from the other side. I don't think that needs much improvement, but rather, mass and ... timing. Probably try to time the fliers to hit the rear shortly after the Myrmidons engage the main battle line. In my experience, you can provide mass to your strong fliers with weaker fliers - which I would expect to be nicely filled by the ordinary Icarids - they are the "cannon fodder" of the flying elite. Expect to lose a few, but they should be a force multiplier by keeping your elite fliers from getting overwhelmed even if they are flying into a large enemy force.
This is a good point. A mixed squad of icarids and wind riders is indeed better than one of riders alone, although the attrition rate is very poor. I continualy bring up the comparison with Vanheim, which I feel is appropriate as they both feature fliers. Even forgetting Vanheim's obvious advantages in cavalry and infantry, the valkrie is clearly superior to the GE fliers. It's cheaper, has glamour, and is also sacred.

A note about bless effects with GE. Taking a strong blessing is more difficult with GE, given their military weakness in the early game. A combat pretender is nearly essential, even moreso when you consider that GE's bless troops take much longer than most to come Online. Your 2-3 blessed fliers won't make a lick of difference when those 30 BF Ulm rangers show up with their POD and Ulmish infantry. Bless effects also restrict your ability to compensate for GE's weak nature and nonexistant blood/death magics. A pretender can only do so much, and taking a strong bless effect for a few indisputably overcosted fliers is a bad idea.

Especially if you throw a Shedu into the mix as well.
I can't imagine a scenario where a Shedu combined with blessed wind riders could be anywhere near cost efficient. The Shedu is a 125-point pretender with poor bless options, limited item slots, a severe fatigue problem, a vulnerability to astral mages that must be overcome, and no inherant resistances or useful combat abilities. For a nation like Arcoscephale, with a wide range of combat pretenders... both flying and non flying... he's quite possibly the most useless unit in the game.

[ June 20, 2004, 19:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

PvK

June 20th, 2004, 09:12 PM

Shortsword is 5 0 1 1 (not 5 0 0 1), Broadsword is 6 0 1 2, and Ulm hammer is 7 0 -1 1. Myrmidons are ST 11 for +1 damage compared to most troops. Compared to broadsword, it's just -1 length. Compared to Ulm hammer, it's -1 damage but +2 defense. As you say, their morale means they are not likely to fail to engage targets with longer weapons. Makes them as good, or with their elite skills and morale, better, on a one for one basis. In a group, this means an advatange, because combat in a battle line is 1:1. The resource cost limits their numbers (they aren't actually the highest cost though - Ulm has a 37), but they are better per man than Ulm HI anyway. The encumbrance does mean they will wear out after prolonged fighting, but Ulm has the same problem (worse for the plate/shield troops) and does extremely well as long as they have enough men. Here it provides a limitation that makes sense. They will do very well at first and then wear down after a while, but by that time in what must be a large battle, perhaps other forces have joined in (such as a flying force).

I would say bless GE, like practically all bless strategies, is an option. The Wind Riders and Wind Lord can be very effective even without a blessing.

GE's Mystic is _2S_3?_ ! Seems to me you are spoiled by Arco's great magic, if you call this "nonexistant blood/death". Still seems to me like you are likely looking at GE as an alternative to standard Arco, without appreciating the comparison to Ulm and nations with flying strike forces (who generally do not have strong HI at all). Coming from a perspective of someone who has played a bunch of Ulm and Mictlan and some Vanheim and Arco), I see good HI (maybe not quite as good as Ulm), very good magic (maybe not quite as good as standard Arco), and good fliers (maybe not quite as good as Vanheim or Devils or Caelum(?)), but all combined in one, plus other interesting goodies. That is, comparing to other nations and styles I have played a lot, I see at least five great strengths (Magic, Research, Fliers, HI, Healing) which may not be quite as good as in specialist nations (Normal Arco magic, Caelum/demon Fliers, Ulm HI), but are combined all in one nation, and most can be synergistic with each other, as well as providing variety (I know what to expect from the others - not so much from GE Arco). Looks excellent to me, though not as well suited to following just one style of play that may be better in one of the others.

PvK

PvK

June 20th, 2004, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
... I can't imagine a scenario where a Shedu combined with blessed wind riders could be anywhere near cost efficient. The Shedu is a 125-point pretender with poor bless options, limited item slots, a severe fatigue problem, a vulnerability to astral mages that must be overcome, and no inherant resistances or useful combat abilities. For a nation like Arcoscephale, with a wide range of combat pretenders... both flying and non flying... he's quite possibly the most useless unit in the game. As I just wrote, blessing is optional. But Shedu's Earth and Astral are both reasonable blessings. Every point of Earth magic will give your Shedu +1 DR, so maybe consider a 9 Earth blessing, giving the Shedu 16 base protection, your blessed troops (and Priestesses) +4 protection and +4 reinvigoration. 8 + Earth protection and 230 base hit points counts as pretty formidable "resistances" to almost everything. The Astral need is definitely there, though. Trampling and 30-damage hoof are not bad. Yes he often gets killed if sent against a group all alone. Combined with a flying force that is formidable by itself, though, it's two deadly forces that go great together. He won'd get swarmed while there are enough fliers swarming around him with Guard Commander orders. Again, adding multiple fliers with different strengths and weaknesses together, can let them cover for each others' weaknesses. I say all this not to assert he's the "best" choice, but to point out that he's far from weak or "most useless" (tm, pet peeve).

PvK

Graeme Dice

June 20th, 2004, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
GE's Mystic is _2S_3?_ ! Seems to me you are spoiled by Arco's great magic, if you call this "nonexistant blood/death".The random picks on the mystic are elemental only, unlike the astrologer which is any kind of magic.

Norfleet

June 20th, 2004, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
But I love fliers. I use Vanheim almost exclusively in MP these days, due to their amazing combination of Einheres, Valkries, Vans, combat magic, the best pretender god available, and the second best recruitable SC's (I'd rank the recuperating, regenerating, elemental fortituded, cloud trapeezing, mistformed Tuatha #1).Niefel Jarls are pretty scary, too. Quicknessed, Breath of Wintered, and can forge their own wraith swords or Skullfaces for Soul Vortex.

1) The Myrmidons compare well to Ulm heavy infantry. Shielded, very high prot. They are more expensive than Ulm HI, but they are also elite and have an excellent morale (Ulm morale is bad). In sufficient numbers, they should give a very solid center (which IME harmonizes with flying into the enemy rear). Comparing to Ulm, you've got different but similarly good HI, without the low morale and weak magic of Ulm. Does Ulm look impossibly weak to you Unfortunately you are missing one very important point. The Myrmidons are equipped with a short sword. Damage 5, length 1, attack 0, defense 0. It's a good thing they have better than average morale, because even broadsword infantry get a riptose chance. This, combined with a massive 8 encumbrance makes their very good basic stats decieving. Combine that with their higher cost in both resources (35 under sloth) and coin, and this is not a comprable unit to Ulm in real-world terms. And Ulm isn't exactly the state of the art in HI anyway. But the most limiting factor is of course their excessive resource cost. They require more resources than any human HI in the game, save the Zweihander.

2) The Icarids do look weak, but the blessed Wind Riders, Wind Lord, and Ircarid Champion (with items), ESPECIALLY combined with a Shedu (!), could I think be made into a nearly unstoppable stomp rear force. They just need enough critical mass to overwhelm. Meanwhile, you have a sold force of heavy infantry to hit them from the other side. I don't think that needs much improvement, but rather, mass and ... timing. Probably try to time the fliers to hit the rear shortly after the Myrmidons engage the main battle line. In my experience, you can provide mass to your strong fliers with weaker fliers - which I would expect to be nicely filled by the ordinary Icarids - they are the "cannon fodder" of the flying elite. Expect to lose a few, but they should be a force multiplier by keeping your elite fliers from getting overwhelmed even if they are flying into a large enemy force.
This is a good point. A mixed squad of icarids and wind riders is indeed better than one of riders alone, although the attrition rate is very poor. I continualy bring up the comparison with Vanheim, which I feel is appropriate as they both feature fliers. Even forgetting Vanheim's obvious advantages in cavalry and infantry, the valkrie is clearly superior to the GE fliers. It's cheaper, has glamour, and is also sacred.

A note about bless effects with GE. Taking a strong blessing is more difficult with GE, given their military weakness in the early game. A combat pretender is nearly essential, even moreso when you consider that GE's bless troops take much longer than most to come Online. Your 2-3 blessed fliers won't make a lick of difference when those 30 BF Ulm rangers show up with their POD and Ulmish infantry. Bless effects also restrict your ability to compensate for GE's weak nature and nonexistant blood/death magics. A pretender can only do so much, and taking a strong bless effect for a few indisputably overcosted fliers is a bad idea.

Especially if you throw a Shedu into the mix as well.
I can't imagine a scenario where a Shedu combined with blessed wind riders could be anywhere near cost efficient. The Shedu is a 125-point pretender with poor bless options, limited item slots, a severe fatigue problem, a vulnerability to astral mages that must be overcome, and no inherant resistances or useful combat abilities. For a nation like Arcoscephale, with a wide range of combat pretenders... both flying and non flying... he's quite possibly the most useless unit in the game. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Blitz

June 20th, 2004, 09:48 PM

GE's Mystic is _2S_3?_ ! Seems to me you are spoiled by Arco's great magic, if you call this "nonexistant blood/death". The mystic's 3 random picks are in the elemental fields. The Astrologer has a true random pick. This does indeed translate into a complete absence of blood and death magic.

As I just wrote, blessing is optional. But Shedu's Earth and Astral are both reasonable blessings. Every point of Earth magic will give your Shedu +1 DR, so maybe consider a 9 Earth blessing, giving the Shedu 16 base protection, your blessed troops (and Priestesses) +4 protection and +4 reinvigoration. 8 + Earth protection and 230 base hit points counts as pretty formidable "resistances" to almost everything. A Shedu with level 9E and 4S costs... are you ready for this? 468 points. That's with no castle, no scales. Nothning but a dubious bless effect. Give it up man, the Shedu is horrible, and yes he may well be the most useless unit in the game when you consider Arcoscephale's other choices for a pretender god. This isn't a case where you can say "well slingers are pretty good patrolers haha". No. This unit sucks. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's overcosted, has no item slots, cannot provide a decent blessing, and isn't anywhere near what the wurm or virtue is as an early expansion aid. He's horrible, and it's almost amusing to see people try to defend him. Sometimes you can make an absolute statement about something. Yes he has the highest hit points of any mobile. He still sucks. Sorry.

Still seems to me like you are likely looking at GE as an alternative to standard Arco, without appreciating the comparison to Ulm and nations with flying strike forces (who generally do not have strong HI at all).Well, it is an alternative to standard Arcoscephale, isn't it? And let's look at the other nations with fliers shall we? Vanheim has Vans and Einheres. Caelum has the temple guard, which may be capitol-only, but let's not forget mammoths, which are fairly strong on the front lines. These are the only nations with strong recruitable fliers, and both of these have superior ground troops to Arcoscephale. Caelum also has the Seraphs, which are stronger than the mystics, and a stealthy 3-strength flying priest. Vanheim's priests are amazing SC's. Priestesses are very good, but even if you concede the top priest spot to her, it's not like either of Vanheim or Caelum are lacking in the mage or priest areas either.

Myrmidons cannot go toe to toe with either Einheres or temple guards... let alone mammoths. GE has strong fliers, yes... but they are overcosted and do not have comparable ground support to either of the other "flying" nations.

Blitz

June 20th, 2004, 10:00 PM

Niefel Jarls are pretty scary, too. Quicknessed, Breath of Wintered, and can forge their own wraith swords or Skullfaces for Soul Vortex. I'd probably rank those #3, on the basis that they can't cloud trapeeze, aren't stealthy, and cost more than either of the other two. I believe they do come with a Jotun Longsword though? Maybe the best standard weapon around. If they were WWDDD and could vortex out of the box, they would be crazy.

My top recruitable SC's:

1) Tuatha
2) Hangadrott/Vanjarl/Vanadrott
3) Neifel Jarl
4) Sidhe Lord
5) King of the Deep

Norfleet

June 20th, 2004, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
As I just wrote, blessing is optional. But Shedu's Earth and Astral are both reasonable blessings. Every point of Earth magic will give your Shedu +1 DR, so maybe consider a 9 Earth blessing, giving the Shedu 16 base protection, your blessed troops (and Priestesses) +4 protection and +4 reinvigoration.A Shedu pretty much asks to be played as a bless....since it sure as hell isn't any good for anything else: You can't slap on gear to turn into mean wafflestomper at all, due to lack of slottage, and it's not really serviceable as an SC due to his severe and incurable encumberance problems.

8 + Earth protection and 230 base hit points counts as pretty formidable "resistances" to almost everything.You'll be surprised how little this matters when the Shedu has no regenerative ability, and spends the battle passed out on the floor.

Trampling and 30-damage hoof are not bad.If he USED his 30-damage hoof attack, that would be great. He doesn't, because he fancies trampling instead. This vastly bumps his his reinvigoration needs....but he has no slottage to spend on it. If you're really fond of the entire trample-fu, the Fat Momma does a better job of this: Same lousy encumberance, same trample-fu problems, but she has humanoid slottage, is quite tough, AND has regeneration. Also, no astral weakness, and is 50 points cheaper! While her encumberance cannot be considered an asset, at least with humanoid slots, it can be compensated for. The Shedu gets benched fairly early.

Yes he often gets killed if sent against a group all alone. Combined with a flying force that is formidable by itself, though, it's two deadly forces that go great together.This is serviceable. I didn't pay 125 points for that, though.

He won'd get swarmed while there are enough fliers swarming around him with Guard Commander orders. Again, adding multiple fliers with different strengths and weaknesses together, can let them cover for each others' weaknesses.Wind Riders are outlandishly expensive in both resources and gold...difficult to afford under Sloth. Also, if everyone is set to guard commander, the entire group routs the moment somebody bites it. And somebody will probably bite it that way. You can partially offset this by towing around a groundpounder team in the back, but then you've shot your flying army in the foot: It's no longer a flying army.

I say all this not to assert he's the "best" choice, but to point out that he's far from weak or "most useless" (tm, pet peeve).I'd have to say that yes, he is definitely weak. Useless, though...well, technically, useless is an absolute term. You don't get more useless, you're just useless. The Shedu manages to avoid being "most useless", though, only by edging out a few even crappier pretender choices, like the "nerfed into oblivion" Sphinx, who is completely overshadowed by otherwise similar and cheaper options like the Oracle or Statue, which can actually still be teleported. The Sphinx, being devoid of teleportation, manages to land the prize here because his physical toughness is meaningless if he can never bring it to bear. Thus, the Sphinx still holds the crown for "crappiest", in my book.

Blitz

June 20th, 2004, 10:28 PM

A Shedu pretty much asks to be played as a bless....since it sure as hell isn't any good for anything else: You can't slap on gear to turn into mean wafflestomper at all, due to lack of slottage, and it's not really serviceable as an SC due to his severe and incurable encumberance problems.
Let's try to make UberShedu shall we?

Here's the BEST Shedu I can manage.

Shedu
SSSSSS EEEE DDDD
Dominion 5

Amulet of Resiliance
Starshine Skullcap
Pendant of Luck

Summon Earthpower, Invulnerability, Astral Shield, Soul Vortex, Erthrealness, attack rear.

Yours for only 466 points!

By comparison:

Ghost King
AA WW EEE DDDD
Dominion 5

Sword of Quickness
Charcoal Shield
Starshine Skullcap
Elemental Armor
Boots of Quickness
Amulet of Spell Resistance
Pendant of Luck

Mirror Image, Soul Vortex, Invulnerability, Breath of Winter, Mistform, attack rear

291 points.

Which would you rather have?

[ June 20, 2004, 21:35: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Norfleet

June 20th, 2004, 10:44 PM

Certainly the GK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, the GK really doesn't play to Arco's strengths, as the priestesses can no longer heal your GK. Plus I'd buy more magic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Blitz

June 20th, 2004, 10:55 PM

Certainly the GK.

However, the GK really doesn't play to Arco's strengths, as the priestesses can no longer heal your GK. Plus I'd buy more magic.
You could take SSSSSS in addition and the GK would still be cheaper. Although that gets me thinking...

What if the Shedu had 20-point paths like the GK? Would he be really so bad then? In fact he'd be pretty damn good. He'd still have hella limited slots, but he might just be the king of the caster SC's. High hit points, lots of magic, but with limited slots.

Hrmmmm.

Lemme see (gets out mod tools)

Nooshedu w/ 20 point paths
FF AA WW EEE SSSSS DDD NNN
Dominion 5
Fortress
Order 1
Sloth 1
Misfortune 1

Still damn expensive to make a rainbow out of, but that's a lot better value for a 125 point chassis. He's still limited in the endgame because of no slots, but at least he's a workable rainbow with high hit points and nice magical diversity. He's STILL no ghost king, but I'd use him.

I can't wait for the Posts about how overpowered a 20-point path Shedu is. Bring it on.

[ June 20, 2004, 21:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Graeme Dice

June 20th, 2004, 11:49 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.

Myrmidons cannot go toe to toe with either Einheres or temple guards... let alone mammoths. No infantry can go toe to toe with mammoths and expect to not take severe losses. There are virtually no infantry that can fight very well against Einheres, and temple guards are even more resource limited than Myrmidons.

Graeme Dice

June 20th, 2004, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Here's the BEST Shedu I can manage.

Shedu
SSSSSS EEEE DDDD
Dominion 5You wasted a huge number of points on the death magic, since it is totally unnecessary for fatigue purposes.

Which would you rather have?I can't tell you the answer to that without knowing the parameters of the game.

Norfleet

June 20th, 2004, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.

Soul Vortex is definitely a solution, but the Shedu does not come with any death, nor a body slot to enable the wearing of bone armor. At 80 points a path, this is probably not something you wish to add yourself, either.

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 12:05 AM

No infantry can go toe to toe with mammoths and expect to not take severe losses. There are virtually no infantry that can fight very well against Einheres, and temple guards are even more resource limited than Myrmidons. So what you are telling me is that Vanheim gets better infantry, better cavalry, better fliers, and recruitable SC's and GE Arco gets... mystics and philosophers. Can I at least have my elephants back please? Uberchariot isn't enough, especially when you figure in the Vandjarls and those valkries who are all over your mystics and priestesses.

As for temple guards being more resource-intensive... at least you aren't operating under FORCED SLOTH. Let's not forget that Vanheim and Caelum get 1 and 3 free temperature picks respectively. And besides, who gives a crap about temple guards when you have wingless/mammoth.

Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies. For 466 points? This ain't Ermor buddy. The only way I can see a Shedu doing anything productive is by incorporating soul vortex. Take 80 point paths, a forced 5+ astral, and a 125 point base cost and you are investing a lot in something you could accomplish a lot cheaper with winged boots on an Oprah.

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
So what you are telling me is that Vanheim gets better infantry, better cavalry, better fliers, and recruitable SC's and GE Arco gets... mystics and philosophers.I think you are misusing the SC term. A vanadrott cannot take on an entire army by itself, which is the requirement for the SC term. Arco also has better and more affordable mages than Vanheim, so it's pretty much evens out.

Can I at least have my elephants back please? Uberchariot isn't enough, especially when you figure in the Vandjarls and those valkries who are all over your mystics and priestesses. The valkyries won't be in your rear because you'll be bringing along a staff of storms. Chariots can also deal with valkyries as they never miss.

For 466 points? This ain't Ermor buddy.Astral 6, earth 4 is all that's required for the spells I listed above. That's doable with order 3, prod 1 (It's not a golden age only pretender you realize), misfortune 2, dominion 6, and a castle.

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 01:38 AM

I think you are misusing the SC term. A vanadrott cannot take on an entire army by itself, which is the requirement for the SC term. Arco also has better and more affordable mages than Vanheim, so it's pretty much evens out. Ever try a hangadrott with full gear, wraith sword, and soul vortex? Find me a better investment for 400 gold. I'll promise you one thing... it'll own the **** out of a Shedu any day.

The valkyries won't be in your rear because you'll be bringing along a staff of storms. Sweet. Now my wind riders are 125 gold heavy cavalry and my icarids are 28 gold peLasts! I'm sure my ground forces will be more than a match for einheres and vans.

Astral 6, earth 4 is all that's required for the spells I listed above. That's doable with order 3, prod 1 (It's not a golden age only pretender you realize), misfortune 2, dominion 6, and a castle. You realize that pretender loses to a hangadrott right? Just checking. Feel free to test it out yourself.

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
]Ever try a hangadrott with full gear, wraith sword, and soul vortex? Find me a better investment for 400 gold. I'll promise you one thing... it'll own the **** out of a Shedu any day.That it will kill a shedu is really irrelevant, since you don't pick a Shedu for killing other thugs, you pick it to kill normal troops very well. I wouldn't bother putting a full set of equipment on it in the first place either, since there are any number of spells that can deal with a unit with such low hitpoints. Counting only the 400 gold you spent, then two mystics with the appropriate skills should do. Since he will likely have lightning immunity, then I would bring along a fire 2 mystic, and a water mystic. One casts incinerate or astral fires, the other casts frozen heart. Sure you can make him immune to three of the elements, but then your equipment will lack either magic resistance, regeneration or luck. If we also include the gem costs of all that equipment you put on him, then arco can start to bring along golems with similar equipment.

]Sweet. Now my wind riders are 125 gold heavy cavalry and my icarids are 28 gold peLasts! I'm sure my ground forces will be more than a match for einheres and vans.Well, since Vanheim would have brought storms even if you hadn't, it's doesn't change the issue at all. And yes, your ground forces can be a match for his since you will also have much more magical research completed, and have the ability to use communion.

You realize that pretender loses to a hangadrott right? Just checking. Feel free to test it out yourself. [/QB]So? It's not a pretender that's made to take out other SCs. It's made to kill normal troops. Arco

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 01:58 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.
Read what Norfleet said again. You just don't get it do you?

[ June 21, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Scott Hebert

June 21st, 2004, 02:49 AM

A few things people have missed about the Shedu that I think bear mentioning:

1) It's unique in that it is the only Pretender in the game to get both Earth and Astral magic naturally. This means that, if you want high Dominion, Earth magic, and Astral magic, he is the best choice for pretender.

2) He plays into the natural strengths of GE Arco. Magical research is one of GE's best strengths. Another is the fact that it gets Air, Earth, and Astral gems naturally. This allows for synergy.

3) He is a very multifaceted Pretender, for being a nonhumanoid. Early-game, he _can_ take provinces. Mid-game, he can research, site-search, forge Crystal Coins, Dwarven Hammers, and other utility items. Late-game, he can be a Golem factory or continue in the mid-game roles.

4) His blessings are very mage-friendly. While it's true that Arco gets no 'real' sacred mages, there is always the Shroud of the Battle Saint. You have to decide if Reinvigoration + Magic Resistance on Armor that costs 5S is good enough for you, though.

Do I think all of this warrants his cost? Well, I think he may be overpriced. Bringing him down to 75 (to equal the Great Mother) might be a good idea. I will point out, though, that no one can beat him in his bailiwick, not even the human pretenders, and he's far more survivable than even the giants.

Consider the following Pretender:

Pretender: Shedu
Cost: 125
Scales: Order3 Sloth1 Growth1 Magic1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 96
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21
Total Cost: 125 + 160 + 80 + 96 + 21 = 482

Note this is without taking Misfortune, and taking Growth-1 (which I'm sure most people would find a waste).

This would make the Shroud:
5 Prot
0 Enc
+3 MRL (this isn't going to do much)
Reinvig 2
+1 MR

For 5 Astral Pearls. This path selection would also directly benefit any sacred mages you run across (Amazon Priestesses, Shamen, Witches, etc.).

Should the Shedu be lowered to 75 points, I could afford one more scale and a 6 Dominion. If I took Misfortune-2, I could go to Earth-6, increasing the bless effect and making the effect of some 'Construction summons' (Enliven Statues) more effect.

In any event, I think the Shedu offers more than people are seeing right now.

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 03:12 AM

Consider the following Pretender:

Pretender: Shedu
Cost: 125
Scales: Order3 Sloth1 Growth1 Magic1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 96
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21
Total Cost: 125 + 160 + 80 + 96 + 21 = 482
Pretender: Nataraja
Cost: Squat
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 222
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total Cost: 0 + 160 + 80 + 244 + 21 = 505

Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:13: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol.You both picked the same castle, and the nataraja is certainly not as useful in the early game as the Shedu. That's why I'm still wondering what, exactly are the game parameters that you are using to determine that it is never worthwhile. What about a 3 player VP game on Brittain for example?

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 03:32 AM

Or lol even better...

Pretender: Wurm
Cost: 75
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Air 1 Nature 1
Cost: 100
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total cost: 426 points (spend the rest as you wish)

Now you got a much better expander, and later in the game he can sit in the lab and forge rainbow armor instead of shroud of the battle saint!

That's why I'm still wondering what, exactly are the game parameters that you are using to determine that it is never worthwhile. He's trying to demonstrate that in order to get a earth 4 /astral 4 blessing on your mystics through use of a shroud of the battle saint, the Shedu is the best pretender choice. Why one would go to such lengths to achieve such a thing is irrelevant. Clearly the Nataraja is superior, even under the conditions most favorable to the Shedu. You could also achieve similar results with a Son of the Sun (the astral Version), which is of course available to arcoscophile.

No, even when seeking the allpowerful earth/astral blessing, the Shedu still sucks. Sorry.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:40: Message edited by: Blitz ]

PvK

June 21st, 2004, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Of course it has redeeming qualities. It has earthpower, invulnerability, luck, body ethereal, and astral shield. It's also a flying trampler, which allows it to smash normal armies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, yeah, as long as said normal army can be broken in less than 10-15 tramples. Even Earthpower can't compensate for the enormous fatigue of trampling: I had messenger boots, a resilience amulet, and earthpower all running at once on a Fat Momma. She still fatigued out. Not cool.
Read what Norfleet said again. You just don't get it do you? <hr /></blockquote>I get it. But that is why you don't send big tramplers in alone - you send them accompanied by other very good units, to add to the carnage.

PvK

PvK

June 21st, 2004, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
... Also, if everyone is set to guard commander, the entire group routs the moment somebody bites it. And somebody will probably bite it that way. ...I've never noticed that kind of problem. Seems like Groups of units on Guard Commander are no more likely to rout on losses than Groups with any other kind of orders.

PvK

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 03:44 AM

I get it. But that is why you don't send big tramplers in alone - you send them accompanied by other very good units, to add to the carnage. But the question is WHY!

Why use a big trampler at all? Why not just use a non overcosted chassis with a full compliment of equipment slots... or barring that, if you REALLY want to trample, why not use an encumbrance 0 POD or something? At least then you can soul vortex and hold 2 shields... plus wear maybe some armor. For the love of god WHY?

Prince Of Death
DDDDD EEEE SSSS
Dominion 5
Boots of Behemoth
Order 3
Sloth 1
Castle

Do I win now? Oh my god please just stop.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:46: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 03:57 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Why use a big trampler at all?Because trampling is the best way to kill large quantities of normal troops very quickly and in the very early game.

Why not just use a non overcosted chassis with a full compliment of equipment slots...Because that need for equipment means that it will take many more turns for the pretender to start affecting battles. The shedu is out and conquering from turn 4.

or barring that, if you REALLY want to trample, why not use an encumbrance 0 POD or something?The prince of death cannot have his afflictions healed by the priestesses.

At least then you can soul vortex and hold 2 shields... plus wear maybe some armor. For the love of god WHY? Any armor he can wear isn't going to do more than what you could get with invulnerability. With 400+ hitpoints, protection 30, luck, astral shield, and etherealness, the shedu is hard to kill even when surrounded and unconscious. It's the flying equivalent of a monolith, and has to be used for a different purpose and with different tactics than many other pretenders, but that doesn't make it useless.

Do I win now? Oh my god please just stop.The prince of death you just described is far more vulnerable to mind duel than the astral 6 Shedu, and requires equipment that Arco will have trouble forging in the first 10-15 turns if you also want to do any alteration or enchantment research. You keep comparing the Shedu to pretender designs that are made for different types of games, and for different goals. Of course it doesn't match up in its ability to kill other SCs, but as I've said that's not the point of the unit.

And by the way, asking if you "win" is pointless when this isn't a competition.

[ June 21, 2004, 02:58: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 04:07 AM

Ok screw it. You wanna play with your shedu go nuts. If you want to sit there and dream up asinine scenarios whereby the Shedu is clearly the unit of choice, far be it from me to stop you.

I'll be sure to look forward to your next posting regarding the awesome power of the Asynja, Great Black Bull, Arch Druid, and Lord of the Gates.

PvK

June 21st, 2004, 04:34 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
... But the question is WHY!

Why use a big trampler at all? Why not just use a non overcosted chassis with a full compliment of equipment slots... or barring that, if you REALLY want to trample, why not use an encumbrance 0 POD or something? At least then you can soul vortex and hold 2 shields... plus wear maybe some armor. For the love of god WHY?

Prince Of Death
DDDDD EEEE SSSS
Dominion 5
Boots of Behemoth
Order 3
Sloth 1
Castle
... Shedu
EEEE SSSSSS
Dominion 6
Order 3
Sloth 1
Castle

Why? Well it's a matter of taste and the PoD is ok, but the Shedu can't be banished, this Shedu is much harder to Mind Duel than that PoD, and as others have said, trampling has different pros and cons than hand weapons. Trampling can kill people more quickly than a sword. This means more shock value, which is important to fliers. One strength of a strong flier attack is that it may do a lot of sudden unexpected damage, causing a rout which can be mopped up easily by fliers. The reason a Shedu, or a small group of Wind Riders, often dies when they attack rear, is lack of critical mass - they get outnumbered and swarmed and rout first. Shedu attracts a lot of attention and causes a lot of damage to Groups which Wind Riders might have trouble with. Wind Riders do well against the units the Shedu can't easily stomp. Combined arms. One of the difficulties is the time it takes GE to build up a large enough force of fliers. Well, with a Shedu mixed in, it provides a very strong boost to the required critical mass. Yes a PoD can do that too, and it's fine if you prefer a PoD. Shedu may be overpriced, but it's not useless, and it fits a certain play style and has some unique advantages.

PvK

P.S.
Dropping cost to 75 points, or making Shedu E1S2 or E2S2 might be good adjustments.

I have used Great Druid before (yes I do like getting extra vine ogres), and I might use Asynja some time. Which is not to say that they couldn't be better (mb increase vine bonus and/or Nature +1-2 on Druid, and lower cost or increase something on Asynja). My point about these is that they do have some advantages, even if maybe they might be a bit overpriced or could use a bit of a boost.

[ June 21, 2004, 03:40: Message edited by: PvK ]

Norfleet

June 21st, 2004, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by PvK:
I've never noticed that kind of problem. Seems like Groups of units on Guard Commander are no more likely to rout on losses than Groups with any other kind of orders.If the only units on the field other than commanders are bodyguards, a rout will occur the moment anyone dies. If you have OTHER units on the field, they function normally, but if there's only a guard commander group and commander(s), then everyone chickens out the moment anyone dies.

PvK

June 21st, 2004, 07:20 AM

Oh, interesting. Sounds like a bug. I usually had a whole additional army, so I guess I didn't often, if ever, get a chance to see that.

BTW, I created the Shedu I just mentioned. Crunch, God of Mountains, Patron of Soldiers, Guardian of Existance. I like the title. I set it up on Aran against 11 impossible AI's with Indy strength 5, to see how well what I mentioned would meet my own standards.

Heh - has anyone ever tried Farstrike with a Shedu? I figure it ought to be about Damage 49 for Earth 4...

So far it splats everyone in one shot, but no hard targets yet.

Shedu seems to be able to flatten at least 20 men before running out of fatigue. Currently Crunch tops the hall of fame, and I haven't even been able to hire any flying escorts yet (wanted to get some Myrmidons yet - yes, the Sloth makes it slow to recruit them.

PvK

P.S.
First heavy cavalry + crossbow indies met. I only have six Myrmidons, a Myrmidon leader, the starting Peltasts and Cardaces plus six, and what's left of Dante's Stingers. The Myrmidons are in front and stand outnumbered by heavy cavalry, and stand firm, taking some bruises but losing zero men. Crunch then farstrikes someone and floats over to the crossbows and commanders, who were in a tight group. Crunch. Routed enemy. Crunch crunch crunch. No sweat, so far.

BTW we didn't mention that GE has 100-gold lab building costs, and the scrying dominion.

Another kind of savage thing you could do as GE Arco is build lots of Myrmidon commanders, and give the better of them magic trinkets. Gold can be in abundance while building high-resource troops with Order 3, and 35 gold vs. 14 gold for a regular myrmidon gets a commander Version with better skills, which can be a thug or super thug. I guess you can only build one, when you could be building a Philosopher or Mystic or Wind Lord, though. Still, if/when you do get short on gold, it's a cheap and pretty good unit.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:41: Message edited by: PvK ]

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
I'll be sure to look forward to your next posting regarding the awesome power of the Asynja, Great Black Bull, Arch Druid, and Lord of the Gates. If you can't figure out how to use the Asynja or the great back bull, then you aren't trying very hard. The lord of the gates simply has to follow an army around so that he won't rout early, and the arch druid is safest rainbow mage to use thanks to his stealth. I'd also be quite happy to show you just how useful the Shedu can be in a very fast game. One that will usually be over by turn 20, and very rarely Lasts more than 30 turns.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:36: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by PvK:
Oh, interesting. Sounds like a bug. I usually had a whole additional army, so I guess I didn't often, if ever, get a chance to see that.It's not a bug so much as a safety feature to prevent bodyguards from keeping your important commanders on the field longer than they should be.

Norfleet

June 21st, 2004, 07:39 AM

Meh. I tend to hate safety features. Safety features are for the weak and timid! I prefer my things to be unsafe and pose a severe health hazard to the ignorant and uninitiated. It's more fun that way, because it limits their usage to me.

[ June 21, 2004, 06:41: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 07:43 AM

If you can't figure out how to use the Asynja I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it.

PvK

June 21st, 2004, 07:43 AM

How about if you have two or more Groups on Guard commander (guarding the same commander) - maybe that would disable the safety feature, if you want to.

PvK

PvK

June 21st, 2004, 08:05 AM

Ok, first injuries were from an unlikely source - Blowpipes and Woodsmen!

A lucky blowpipe shot managed to kill a Myrmidon! Very lucky shot, I guess. Then, the druid put my Shedu to sleep with the Sleep spell! Of course, I had timed the attack properly so that, even though I still had no flying escorts for the Shedu, they barely hurt him while he was unconscious, and the Myrmidons and Cardaces arrived the next turn to wipe them out. The Shedu took a chest wound though - time to heal. My luck improved the next turn though as I set my priestess to heal as the Shedu flew in for repairs, and he was healed immediately. Back to action, and now I have a few fliers for escort.

Sadly, I do need to get some sleep, as a ridiculous work week lies ahead, so the experiment will be on hiatus for a while. However, I am not at all displeased with the results so far. The only real weak point I see is the low resources versus the costs of the good units. However Cardaces cost almost no resources, and serve the purpose of having men to help kill indies with at first. When a Shedu is scheduled to go wipe out the rear (especially when escorted), Cardaces can fill the gap for a while.

PvK

Norfleet

June 21st, 2004, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it. Well, the Asynja is not what I would call "good", but she's not unplayably awful. However, she seems to fall into an uncomfortable middle ground between the Titan and Allfather: Not quite as good an Air-bless chassis as the Titan, as the Titan gets to A9 more cheaply, and not as good a fighter as the Allfather, since she is not immune to armor encumberance and her paths are less versatile.

The primary problem with the Asynja is not really her stats, but the fact that she fails to fill any niche that the Allfather or Titan cannot do better.

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
[QUOTE]I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it. Whether or not she is better than the Allfather is completely irrelevant to the question of whether she is useless or not. Will you please stop bringing up red herrings and pretending that they are valid arguments?

Scott Hebert

June 21st, 2004, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Pretender: Nataraja
Cost: Squat
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Earth 4 Astral 4
Cost: 222
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total Cost: 0 + 160 + 80 + 244 + 21 = 505

Cut 5 points off your design and you can have the 4-armed beatdown of death. Dunno about you, but I'd rather have a fortress and the Natty. Of course with 4 astral you may as well take an immobile, for all the good he'll do outside the capitol. Well, first, as even you point out, you _can't_ get the Nataraja like that (which number is correct, 222 or 244?). Second, I've used both a Shedu and a Nataraja, and without equipment (i.e., very early in the game), a Shedu is much better.

Also, IIRC, the Nataraja only gets one miscellaneous slot. This causes problems when you want to boost his paths. Ironically, the only slots that matter for boosting Astral magic are the Head and Misc. slots, and that means that the Shedu can boost his Astral magic more than the Nataraja.

Something else you miss is that the Shedu is more economical than the Nataraja at boosting his initial paths past 4. This means that, should I want to have a better blessing than a simple 4S4E, the Shedu is definitely the better choice.

Finally, a friendly piece of advice for you: "Those who say something cannot be done should get out of the way of the people doing it."

Scott Hebert

June 21st, 2004, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Pretender: Wurm
Cost: 75
Scales: Order 3 Sloth 1 Growth 1 Magic 1
Cost: 160
Fort: Castle
Cost: 80
Paths: Air 1 Nature 1
Cost: 100
Dominion: 5
Cost: 21

Total cost: 426 points (spend the rest as you wish)Mm-hmm.

Now you got a much better expander,Can you give me data showing this? Even aside from the tactical considerations (such as the difference in kill rate), the fact that the Shedu flies means that strategically you are less constrained in which provinces you attack.

and later in the game he can sit in the lab and forge rainbow armor instead of shroud of the battle saint!Let's compare them, shall we?

Rainbow Armor:
Cost: 5 Air + 5 Nature gems
Prot 8
Def: 1
Enc: 1
MR: +3
Reinv: +3

Shroud of the Battle Saint (4E4S):
Cost: 5 Astral gems
Prot: 5
Def: 0
Enc: 0
MR: +1
Reinv: +2

Now that's the surface. Now, considering that we are talking about mages, that means the Enc will be doubled for the purposes of fatigue, to 2. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor +1, not +3. Assuming that Quickness is put up (and when we're talking about Arco's Mystics in Communion, this assumption is pretty fair), this Enc should be removed twice for 2 spells being cast per turn. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor -1.

There is also the fact that the Shroud costs half as much as the Rainbow Armor (which we'll ignore because of the better Prot and Def Ratings of the Rainbow Armor).

Finally, you have to consider that Arco has no easy access to nature gems to forge the Rainbow armor. The Shroud, OTOH, is much more easily obtainable.

He's trying to demonstrate that in order to get a earth 4 /astral 4 blessing on your mystics through use of a shroud of the battle saint, the Shedu is the best pretender choice.Actually, I believe my statement was that if you wanted Earth magic, Astral Magic, and a high Dominion on your Pretender, the Shedu was the best choice. The E4/S4 blessing is only one ramification of such a strategy.

Why one would go to such lengths to achieve such a thing is irrelevant. Clearly the Nataraja is superior, even under the conditions most favorable to the Shedu.This is not true from my experiences using both.

You could also achieve similar results with a Son of the Sun (the astral Version), which is of course available to arcoscophile. Actually, the difference in point costs is 1 point in favor of the Son of the Sun, and that is negligible. Also, if you increase Earth beyond 4, it starts to favor the Shedu. The Son of the Sun also is nowhere near the early combat pretender the Shedu is.

No, even when seeking the allpowerful earth/astral blessing, the Shedu still sucks. Sorry. Your tone needs work here.

Nagot Gick Fel

June 21st, 2004, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Blitz:
I'm sure there's some obscure strategy that makes her better than Odin in the world according to Graeme. Right then, let's hear it. Whether or not she is better than the Allfather is completely irrelevant to the question of whether she is useless or not. Will you please stop bringing up red herrings and pretending that they are valid arguments?<hr /></blockquote>Here's one suggestion:

Asynja
Air-4
Earth-3
Nature-3

Tested twice using

Theme: Midgard
Order +3
Production +3
Cold +1
Drain +2
Dominion: 5
Castle

and

Theme: Midgard
Order +3
Cold +1
Magic +1
Dominion: 5
Castle

Remarks:

(1) Cheaper than a Titan or Allfather with similar magic.

(2) Compliments Midgard's magic rather nicely. (As a matter of fact, with this pretender you can eventually achieve level 5+ in every path magic using only national mages and Construction 2-6 items - right, no empowerment, no indies, nada.)

(3) Lots of good early buffs early - Mistform, Mirror Image, Personal Regen, etc. - making full use of her potential early. I chose Earth and Nature above Water and Death because (a) regen is a must have for an early SC (b) Earth magic is a dead end for Midgard without at least 2 levels on the pretender (c) Quickness is great but you can get it on boots eventually (d) Soul Vortex is great but isn't available as soon as the other buffs.

How does this Asynja compare to a Titan with the same skills? She loses the shock resistance, but she's cheaper and come with better fighting skills. Rather positive.

How does she compare to the Allfather? Well, to make the best use of his starting magic, you'll want to buy a couple extra levels of Death, as well as a couple levels of Water to take advantage of the cheap paths. And probably reduce his air magic to 3 to get one more tick in a scale. Such an Allfather would be superior, but it comes with a 80 points deficit - and loses the air-4 blessing as well. So it depends on whether you want the stronger scales or not. If the former, this Asynja is still an impressive fighter.

With the other 2 themes you may want to buy her different magic paths.

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 07:04 PM

Honestly, I am sick of this. Both of you have already admitted that the Shedu is overcosted, which pretty much is the whole damn point. While yes, the Shedu does fill the niche of "early flying trampler for people who want an earth-astral blessing", in all honesty that is a very limited role of extremely dubious merit.

Can you give me data showing this? Even aside from the tactical considerations (such as the difference in kill rate), the fact that the Shedu flies means that strategically you are less constrained in which provinces you attack.
Kill rate is pretty much irrelevant. What matters for a pretender used for expansion is that the chassis can clear out a province of independants. The wurm, with it's huge regeneration bonus will under most circumstances be operating with a much higher hit point total. In addition he isn't going to collapse in a heap halfway through the battle and require assistance from your other troops. If you really want to achieve a fast opening with Arcoscephale, I'd probably reccomend the Virtue. Her impressive awe rating means that she's virtually invulnerable to damage from indepandants. She also flies, is much more useful in the lategame, and her lack of trample is quite frankly seen as a bonus by most players who know what they are talking about.

Now that's the surface. Now, considering that we are talking about mages, that means the Enc will be doubled for the purposes of fatigue, to 2. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor +1, not +3. Assuming that Quickness is put up (and when we're talking about Arco's Mystics in Communion, this assumption is pretty fair), this Enc should be removed twice for 2 spells being cast per turn. This makes the effective Reinv of the Rainbow Armor -1.
Again, a convoluted strategy of forged shrouds of the battle saint and an earth 4, astral 4 blessing just really isn't a very efficient use of a pretender god.

Finally, a friendly piece of advice for you: "Those who say something cannot be done should get out of the way of the people doing it." Frankly I doubt either of you were doing anything at all with the Shedu before, and I highly doubt that either of you will play much with him ever again. He's not a cost-efficient pretender chassis, and certianly not comparable to the other pretender gods available to Arcoscephale. While calling him useless may be somewhat of an exageration, there quite simply are better ways to spend your design points than on this chassis. Your mystics can already cast most high-level earth and astral rituals without help, so a pretender god with earth/astral is really not as valuable to Arcoscephale. You don't need a "golem summoner" when you can simply forge a starshine skullcap and cast it with a fairly common 2-earth mage.

While this thread was meant to be a discussion of the golden era theme, it has become a forum for defending the shedu... a chassis that I've never seen in a MP game. If you find absolute terms such as "useless" so offensive and need to take it upon yourself to prove otherwise, by all means be my guest.

[ June 21, 2004, 18:06: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Gandalf Parker

June 21st, 2004, 08:14 PM

I use Shedu quite abit. But since it sounds like you are mostly giving "Johan" arguments (numbers, balance, strategy, winning) there isnt much for me to put in. Im not saying you are right, just that its for others to debate you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I tend to use it more for "Kristoffer" reasons (theme, storyline, kewlness, RPG, solo). Its still a good idea for no choice to actually suck in either Category. But everything in the game seems to be a blending/comrpomise between both viewpoints.

[ June 21, 2004, 19:16: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Honestly, I am sick of this. Both of you have already admitted that the Shedu is overcosted, which pretty much is the whole damn point.No, the point was that you were stating that the Shedu has no redeeming qualities and was useless. I also haven't admitted that the Shedu was overcosted, since I haven't seen a pretender that can give you access to both high level earth and astral magic for the same cost.

While yes, the Shedu does fill the niche of "early flying trampler for people who want an earth-astral blessing", in all honesty that is a very limited role of extremely dubious merit.Earth and astral magic aren't a useful combination? They are one of the more useful combinations considering the synergy between the paths.

In addition he isn't going to collapse in a heap halfway through the battle and require assistance from your other troops.Neither will the Shedu unless you happen to be playing with independents 9.

She also flies, is much more useful in the lategame, and her lack of trample is quite frankly seen as a bonus by most players who know what they are talking about.I always like it when people make an argument from popularity. Why don't you name these "most players". It looks to me more like it's just you and Norfleet.

Again, a convoluted strategy of forged shrouds of the battle saint and an earth 4, astral 4 blessing just really isn't a very efficient use of a pretender god.Then go earth 2 astral 9. Twist fate is certainly worth it on sacred units.

Frankly I doubt either of you were doing anything at all with the Shedu before, and I highly doubt that either of you will play much with him ever again.I've already told you the game conditions where I would take a Shedu over most other pretenders. A blitz game where the goal is to capture 4 of 7 victory points on a small map like Brittain or Urgaia.

While this thread was meant to be a discussion of the golden era theme, it has become a forum for defending the shedu... a chassis that I've never seen in a MP game.Which is nothing more than an argument from popularity. We are also objecting to your arrogant tone.

[ June 21, 2004, 19:22: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Blitz

June 21st, 2004, 08:33 PM

Graeme, if you honestly believe that the Shedu is a balanced, well costed, viable pretender choice for Arcoscephale at this point, you probably won't be convinced otherwise. At first I suspected that you were simply playing devil's advocate, but I actually read a few of your other strategy Posts and I am beginning to think that it's possible that you really believe what you are saying. While I find it hard to believe that pricing the Shedu at the same level as an allfather is appropriate, to some people he's obviously more than worth it.

I wish you good fortune with your earth 4/astral 4 blessed mystics and flying tramplers.

Graeme Dice

June 21st, 2004, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
While I find it hard to believe that pricing the Shedu at the same level as an allfather is appropriate, to some people he's obviously more than worth it.The allfather has nothing to do with this since he isn't available to Arco. Even if he was, he's not designed for the same tasks as the Shedu. You'd be better off comparing a shedu to a dragon or the Wyrm, since they share a much closer role. If you insist on comparing apples to oranges, then you would be much better off comparing it to any of the 125 point pretenders that are actually available to Arco.

I wish you good fortune with your earth 4/astral 4 blessed mystics and flying tramplers.I have no idea what you are talking about since I've _never_ advocated either a E4/S4 Shedu, _or_ using shrouds. You might also want to lose the attitude, since it's only hurting your position.

Nagot Gick Fel

June 22nd, 2004, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
The primary problem with the Asynja is not really her stats, but the fact that she fails to fill any niche that the Allfather or Titan cannot do better.Depends on what you're aiming for: if it's a small boost in air magic (up to air@6, say) and a few levels in a secondary path besides death, then the Asynja is your cheapest option.

Scott Hebert

June 22nd, 2004, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Honestly, I am sick of this. Both of you have already admitted that the Shedu is overcosted, which pretty much is the whole damn point. While yes, the Shedu does fill the niche of "early flying trampler for people who want an earth-astral blessing", in all honesty that is a very limited role of extremely dubious merit. I stated that a lowering in price would be something I wouldn't mind seeing. That is not the same as saying he's overcosted.

Kill rate is pretty much irrelevant. What matters for a pretender used for expansion is that the chassis can clear out a province of independants. The wurm, with it's huge regeneration bonus will under most circumstances be operating with a much higher hit point total. You're going into dangerous waters, my friend. First, kill rate IS important due to morale considerations. Killing 5 people a turn is going to rout them much faster than killing 2. This is important for many reasons, and let me make them explicit. The faster you kill the enemies, the faster they rout. The faster they rout, the less fatigue you get.

As for HP totals, the Wyrm starts with a base of 160HPs, and gains 10% per round (assuming no Nature magic), to a maximum of 160. The Shedu has a base of 230HPs. That means that the Shedu will have more HPs than the Wyrm for 7 turns after contact with enemy troops is made. Do battles against Indeps normally take you that long to accomplish?

In addition he isn't going to collapse in a heap halfway through the battle and require assistance from your other troops.I'm currently playing a GE Arco game, and it's turn 12 or 13. My Shedu/Prophet/Peltast strategy is working very well, and he's never been above 55 Fatigue at the end of a battle. Never an affliction, either.

If you really want to achieve a fast opening with Arcoscephale, I'd probably reccomend the Virtue. Her impressive awe rating means that she's virtually invulnerable to damage from indepandants.If you say so. My own experiences with a Virtue early are quite different.

She also flies, is much more useful in the lategame, and her lack of trample is quite frankly seen as a bonus by most players who know what they are talking about.Since you don't seem to understand the points regarding kill rate, let me reiterate them.

1) The more people you kill, the faster the opponent will rout.
2) The faster the opponent routs, the faster the combat will take to reach closure.

The Virtue kills _1_ unit a turn. This means that on higher indep settings, she WILL get mobbed, and she WILL take damage. If you wait until she has Alteration researched to get her buffs, I have a quicker start out of the gate.

Again, a convoluted strategy of forged shrouds of the battle saint and an earth 4, astral 4 blessing just really isn't a very efficient use of a pretender god.How is that convoluted? Further, who are you to tell me what is or is not efficient? A Nataraja or a Son of the Sun cannot take provinces early as well as a Shedu, and is not as efficient with Earth and Astral magic as the Shedu. You're trying to pick this apart and saying that you can do better in any one area. And maybe you can. But can you do better in all of them?

Frankly I doubt either of you were doing anything at all with the Shedu before, and I highly doubt that either of you will play much with him ever again.Wrong on both counts. But then, you don't listen much to others, do you?

He's not a cost-efficient pretender chassis, and certianly not comparable to the other pretender gods available to Arcoscephale.He is the most cost-efficient god for Earth and Astral magic. You can't name another one that is better for both, if you want either of them at a medium-to-high level.

While calling him useless may be somewhat of an exageration,Which I note you're quite good at.

there quite simply are better ways to spend your design points than on this chassis.I'll repeat my earlier advice to you: Those who say something can't be done should get out of the way of the people doing it.

Your mystics can already cast most high-level earth and astral rituals without help, so a pretender god with earth/astral is really not as valuable to Arcoscephale.Oh? Tell me how a Mystic is going to cast Forge. Even assuming an Earth-3 Mystic, the easiest way is, depending on your gem income, Earth Boots and either the Sword of the Four Elements, or a Ring of Wizardry. That's a lot of gems that you can save by simply taking 5 Earth on your Pretender.

If you want to talk about a 2-Earth Mystic (which is the much likelier scenario), you have to spend another 45 Earth gems to empower him, or forge both the Ring of Wizardry and the Sword.

I'm not sure about you, but this seems like quite an effort just to be able to cast an Earth-5 Ritual.

You don't need a "golem summoner" when you can simply forge a starshine skullcap and cast it with a fairly common 2-earth mage.I simply pointed out one late-game use for him. There are others as well, which you seem to miss.

While this thread was meant to be a discussion of the golden era theme, it has become a forum for defending the shedu... a chassis that I've never seen in a MP game.Popularity <> usefulness, and the reverse is true as well.

If you find absolute terms such as "useless" so offensive and need to take it upon yourself to prove otherwise, by all means be my guest.Don't claim it is useless, unless you qualify it to 'useless to me', since you seem incapable of figuring out how to use the Shedu.

Nagot Gick Fel

June 22nd, 2004, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
My own experiences with a Virtue early are quite different.[Snip]

The Virtue kills _1_ unit a turn.No wonder you had bad experiences with her. That should be 5-10 kills a turn after you've researched a couple levels in Alteration and Evocation.

atul

June 22nd, 2004, 06:30 PM

...not to get into the Shedu-debate (imho OK, probably has its uses), but...

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blitz:
The Virtue kills _1_ unit a turn. This means that on higher indep settings, she WILL get mobbed, and she WILL take damage. If you wait until she has Alteration researched to get her buffs, I have a quicker start out of the gate.
A Virtue pretender in MP around turn 10 or so with indy 9. She's been in the field since turn 3 and not a single affliction. Currently competes of high HoF positions with a group of pre-2.12 created VQs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Of course, it just may be that fortune favors the fool...

Graeme Dice

June 22nd, 2004, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
No wonder you had bad experiences with her. That should be 5-10 kills a turn after you've researched a couple levels in Alteration and Evocation. That's only possible once you reach evocation 5. This is certainly not going to happen by turn 4.

Nagot Gick Fel

June 22nd, 2004, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
No wonder you had bad experiences with her. That should be 5-10 kills a turn after you've researched a couple levels in Alteration and Evocation. That's only possible once you reach evocation 5. This is certainly not going to happen by turn 4. <hr /></blockquote>Er, after Evocation 2 you mean.

Graeme Dice

June 22nd, 2004, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Er, after Evocation 2 you mean. Evocation 2 gives you lignthing bolt. There is no way to use lightning bolt to kill more than 2 enemies a turn with a virtue.

Nagot Gick Fel

June 22nd, 2004, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Er, after Evocation 2 you mean. Evocation 2 gives you lignthing bolt. There is no way to use lightning bolt to kill more than 2 enemies a turn with a virtue. <hr /></blockquote>Research Evocation 2 and send your unscripted Virtue alone vs independents. Luckily she'll know how to deal with them better than you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Graeme Dice

June 22nd, 2004, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Research Evocation 2 and send your unscripted Virtue alone vs independents. Luckily she'll know how to deal with them better than you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Well, I suppose one could use shockwave, but as soon as you give her the alteration 3 that she needs to gain real survivability she'll also start to cast ghost wolves, which you really don't want.

June 22nd, 2004, 09:29 PM

Actually since the Virtue flies, she will cast her buffs, (say Mirror Image, Mistform, Air Shield, Resist Lighting) then set her to attack (1 Round) to get close to masses of the enemy, then cast with the Last order being casting spells. She'll do the smart thing and chaincast Shockwave as long as she has nearby units that the game finds feasible to cast on (I think as long as the squares are 50% full of units around her)

Blitz

June 22nd, 2004, 09:40 PM

Deleted by Zen

[ June 22, 2004, 21:09: Message edited by: Zen ]

Nagot Gick Fel

June 22nd, 2004, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Research Evocation 2 and send your unscripted Virtue alone vs independents. Luckily she'll know how to deal with them better than you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Well, I suppose one could use shockwave, but as soon as you give her the alteration 3 that she needs to gain real survivability she'll also start to cast ghost wolves, which you really don't want. <hr /></blockquote>I've never found that to be a problem. Ghost Wolves is a low fatigue spell, anyway if it's an issue (because of high ENC, massive drain and/or low air magic), you still have the option to attack 1 round, as Zen said. Once the enemy is within range, she'll default to Shockwave (unless she chooses to melee) 99% of the time, and that's what you want.

Nagot Gick Fel

June 22nd, 2004, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
Actually since the Virtue flies, she will cast her buffs, (say [...] Resist LightingNope, Zen, she doesn't need this one... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

June 22nd, 2004, 10:40 PM

Good point. But you can never be too careful eh?

What she does need is a Ring of the Snake, nothing like losing a perfectly good Virtue to a Snake Bladder Stick http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Another thing. I always thought was a little bizzare. She's wielding a Flambeau and isn't fire Resistant. And if you've ever killed a Virtue with Holy Pyre, it's ironic as all hell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ June 22, 2004, 21:43: Message edited by: Zen ]

Graeme Dice

June 22nd, 2004, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
Another thing. I always thought was a little bizzare. She's wielding a Flambeau and isn't fire Resistant. And if you've ever killed a Virtue with Holy Pyre, it's ironic as all hell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Well, that's why you give her a hellsword.

Nagot Gick Fel

June 22nd, 2004, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
Good point. But you can never be too careful eh?Actually I think she won't cast Resist Lightning even if you script her so.

What she does need is a Ring of the Snake, nothing like losing a perfectly good Virtue to a Snake Bladder Stick http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Good one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Another thing. I always thought was a little bizzare. She's wielding a Flambeau and isn't fire Resistant. And if you've ever killed a Virtue with Holy Pyre, it's ironic as all hell http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Anyway I always give fire and/or cold resistance to my Virtues before they go after other nations. It's so easy to lose them to Incinerate or Frozen Heart if you're not careful enough.

Blitz

June 22nd, 2004, 11:39 PM

She can get afflicted to hell via poison as well. Not a prob with arco, but for everyone else.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Zen:
Another thing. I always thought was a little bizzare. She's wielding a Flambeau and isn't fire Resistant. And if you've ever killed a Virtue with Holy Pyre, it's ironic as all hell
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, that's why you give her a hellsword.
Flame helmet is my FR item of choice these days

[ June 22, 2004, 22:40: Message edited by: Blitz ]

June 23rd, 2004, 12:37 AM

Poison will kill her and in the hands of the right player, they will have one coming at you on turn 5ish if you try to use your Virtue in any SC capacity if you don't put one on her.

Nagot Gick Fel

June 23rd, 2004, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
She can get afflicted to hell via poison as well. Not a prob with arco, but for everyone else.Yes, that may be a problem. Still, poison isn't as dangerous for her as mass Incinerate/Frozen Heart if she lacks the ad hoc resistance(s). These may kill her in a single round, and Awe doesn't help here.

OTOH there aren't long range 100 prec poison spells. And poison kills over time, so its effect may be negated by regeneration if the Virtue gets enough buff from her dominion (sending her alone in enemy dominion where you expect to see a type of spells she's not resistant to is always a bad idea).

For the record, I've had a Virtue stand toe-to-toe and win a fight vs 4 Hydras in a Dom 1 MP game - she had regeneration but no poison resistance.

Scott Hebert

June 23rd, 2004, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
No wonder you had bad experiences with her. That should be 5-10 kills a turn after you've researched a couple levels in Alteration and Evocation. If you want to get to Thunder Strike, sure she'll kill more people. That's Evocation-4, though, and as I said, we're talking about the first 5 turns.

Though, if you can tell me how to get to Evocation-4 by turn 5, I'm all ears. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Scott Hebert

June 23rd, 2004, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
Actually since the Virtue flies, she will cast her buffs, (say Mirror Image, Mistform, Air Shield, Resist Lighting) then set her to attack (1 Round) to get close to masses of the enemy, then cast with the Last order being casting spells. She'll do the smart thing and chaincast Shockwave as long as she has nearby units that the game finds feasible to cast on (I think as long as the squares are 50% full of units around her)Nice trick. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif IIRC, though, what are the chances she'll be able to cast it while in melee? 50%? To put up those buffs sounds like Alteration-3 and Evocation-2 to me. The Shedu needs none of that to take provinces. True, the Shedu should have an army, but an army of Peltasts is sufficient for the purpose, at least on Indep5.

And, if I may, at the same time the Virtue gets Thunder Strike (far safer than the above, though not nearly as cool), the Shedu gets Blade Wind. That's a wash, to me.

What I've heard from people 'in the know' is that GE Arco needs someone to help them take early provinces. The Shedu, to me, looks like one of the best candidates to do so. Take your beginning army, make a Priestess + a whole bunch of Peltasts. Attack a Province with Shedu/Priestess/Peltasts, with the Shedu doing anything you want for two turns, and then attacking the rear. This basically times the first or second Javelin volley from your troops for when the Shedu starts trampling, and that _will_ rout almost any Indep5 province, and probably would do a good job on higher Ratings. This starts province taking on turn 3.

Also, I believe it was mentioned that the Philosopher isn't as big as an advantage as people think because it was capital-only, and therefore its importance lessens as you build more forts.

I think there is some merit in this statement, but the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Look at it this way. _Most_ nations can hire their best mages only in their capital, and their secondary forts can only hire the researchers. The ramifications of this is that it takes time for the 'good' mages to get to the front, and the researchers are more exposed, if an enemy can get through the fort.

GE Arco inverts these conditions. Now, your Researchers are based in your Capital, and your 'good' mages are based in any of your Forts. This allows for faster deployment of your mages, and gives greater security to your researchers.

Blitz

June 23rd, 2004, 10:21 PM

_Most_ nations can hire their best mages only in their capital How many apparently magic based themes do you know that have exactly ONE mage? Heck, how many themes have one mage? Ulm, Ulm: IF, Pan: New Ara, and GE Arco?

PvK

June 23rd, 2004, 10:47 PM

Trollheim http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Scott Hebert

June 23rd, 2004, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by Blitz:
How many apparently magic based themes do you know that have exactly ONE mage? Heck, how many themes have one mage? Ulm, Ulm: IF, Pan: New Ara, and GE Arco?First, GE Arco has two. The Mystic and the Priestess.

Second, how many nations use their weaker mages for anything other than research? There's Communion Slaves, and forging weaker items. That's about it. While _not_ inconsequential, the useful Nature items are not out of Arco's reach.

Third, it's not really about quantity so much as quality. The Mystic is generally considered one of the best mages in the game, if random. You can get 2+ in any of the Elemental paths. That's sort of the equivalent of 4 different mage types. Take a look at Mictlan's Mages. 3 of them are the same except for the non-Blood magic they get (with the small difference in the Priest King). If it were possible to get random picks restricted to specific paths, they could be represented by one unit.

With regards to the vaunted Seithkona, here's a scenario for you. You play Utgard Jotunheim, and I play GE Arco. You buy a Seithkona every turn for the first 21 turns (so you have 20), and I buy a Philosopher every turn for the same amount of time. Assuming an equal magic scale (a fair assumption, since your Cold-2 roughly balances with your 25 pt. charge for Utgard, plus my 40 points for Sloth), we will produce the same amount of research points in that time (assuming Magic-0, 1050) from these units. However, you will have spent a total of 3150 gold on your Seithkonur, while I will have spent 1749.3 gold on my Philosophers. This gives me 1400 more gold than you to be spent over 20 turns, for an average of 70 gold per turn. This only gets worse the longer we continue this.

If you think this is going too far in turns, then look at when we each have 10 (turn 11). For the same number of research points from these units, you'll have spent 1320 gold, and I will have spent 733.15. This difference is 586.85 gold.

Now, let's take a slightly different scenario. Assume that we have each bought one of our 'researchers' for the first ten turns, and then (from a second castle) bought ten more mages. Since I cannot get Philosophers in my second fortress, let me build Mystics instead. Let's see how we stand on turn 21 now.

You've spent 4626 gold total, have 31 Seithkonur, and made 1380 RPs (assuming Magic-0 scale).

I've spent 4701 gold, have 20 Philosophers and 11 Mystics, and made 1512 RPs (assuming Magic-0 scale).

Upkeep on these mages are 31 * 6 = 186 gold a turn for you, and (20 * 3.333)= 66.667 gold for the philosophers, and (11 * 9) = 99 gold for the mystics. This calculates to 165.667 gold total for me. You're still paying more for your researchers on maintenance (20g), and I'm producing more research. This is if I choose to maximize research. If I choose to minimize gold expenditure, I build Priestesses instead of Mystics, and I will spend less for my mages than you will on yours, and have less upkeep. I don't see how this is something against GE Arco.

I think, Blitz, that GE Arco is just something that doesn't work for you. That's nothing against you, but that's also nothing against GE Arco. Not everything has to play the same, and if you like the way that base Arco plays, but not GE, that's fine. Just don't try to dictate how others should play, and everyone will be fine.

Blitz

June 23rd, 2004, 11:51 PM

First, GE Arco has two. The Mystic and the Priestess. So does Pangaea: NA I suppose. Her level 1 nature magic isn't irrelevant, but it's certianly not on par with most nation's secondary mages... even if she is a more efficient researcher and comes with different magic than the mystic.

Second, how many nations use their weaker mages for anything other than research? There's Communion Slaves, and forging weaker items. That's about it. While _not_ inconsequential, the useful Nature items are not out of Arco's reach.
Using only the strongest mages available is a common mistake made by less experienced players.

I think, Blitz, that GE Arco is just something that doesn't work for you. That's nothing against you, but that's also nothing against GE Arco. Not everything has to play the same, and if you like the way that base Arco plays, but not GE, that's fine. Just don't try to dictate how others should play, and everyone will be fine.
I'd be happy to thrash you with GE arco. I've never said it was unplayable, merely weaker. Obviously from the poll, I'm speaking with the majority here. If you don't agree, that's fine... but it certianly isn't an indication of my inability to play the theme. As for dictating how people play? Not sure what you are talking about there.

[ June 23, 2004, 23:06: Message edited by: Blitz ]

June 24th, 2004, 12:10 AM

I wouldn't take popularity as some sort of truth. Especially considering that GE is relatively new.

Scott Hebert

June 24th, 2004, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
So does Pangaea: NA I suppose. Her level 1 nature magic isn't irrelevant, but it's certianly not on par with most nation's secondary mages... even if she is a more efficient researcher and comes with different magic than the mystic.Well, you were the one who said that GE Arco has only one mage.

Using only the strongest mages available is a common mistake made by less experienced players.You like insulting people, don't you, Blitz? If you check other threads (such as the Desert Tombs thread), you will see I am quite comfortable with using 'secondary' mages.

I'd be happy to thrash you with GE arco.I'm sure you would be.

I've never said it was unplayable, merely weaker.Why would YOU choose GE Arco over normal Arco then? If you believe as you imply elsewhere in this thread and others that GE Arco is weaker than normal Arco, why would you ever play it?

Obviously from the poll, I'm speaking with the majority here.Poll results can be rigged with anyone with a modicum of intellect. As I don't ascribe stupidity to you, I see no reason why the results of that poll should receive undue attention. I'm fairly confident that the developers pay it little heed.

If you don't agree, that's fine... but it certianly isn't an indication of my inability to play the theme.Then why bother bringing it up? If you can play and win with the theme, what's so wrong with it? If you don't _like_ playing it vis-a-vis other nations or themes, that's perfectly fine, but don't bring up a discussion about how it's weaker because you don't like the way it plays.

About the only thing I agree with in this entire thread is that the Wind Rider is (slightly) overpriced, and that's only because the Gryphon Rider of the Garnet Amazons costs the same and gives you a Gryphon when the Rider dies.

BTW, nice sidestep of the math.

Blitz

June 24th, 2004, 12:18 AM

I wouldn't take popularity as some sort of truth. Especially considering that GE is relatively new You are already on record that you feel the wind rider is overcosted. Have you changed that opinion?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using only the strongest mages available is a common mistake made by less experienced players.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You like insulting people, don't you, Blitz? If you check other threads (such as the Desert Tombs thread), you will see I am quite comfortable with using 'secondary' mages.
I think inexperienced players tend to recruit the best possible unit, regardless of circumstances. It's certianly a habit I had to break fairly early on. I don't know if you are still in that stage or not, but your post seemed to imply it.

About the only thing I agree with in this entire thread is that the Wind Rider is (slightly) overpriced, and that's only because the Gryphon Rider of the Garnet Amazons costs the same and gives you a Gryphon when the Rider dies.
Great, let's improve the wind rider then shall we? I seem to recall that was what my mod did. Giving GE a well-costed large flier would most likely improve the theme quite a bit, and it's what I've advocated all along.

Why would YOU choose GE Arco over normal Arco then? If you believe as you imply elsewhere in this thread and others that GE Arco is weaker than normal Arco, why would you ever play it?
I like the GE concept. I think it's the best concept for a theme out there. I'd like to see it be strengthened so I could justify playing it more under competitive circumstances.

[ June 23, 2004, 23:22: Message edited by: Blitz ]

June 24th, 2004, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
You are already on record that you feel the wind rider is overcosted. Have you changed that opinion?On record? This isn't a courtroom ;P But I have always felt it that way, but does that make the theme weaker than base Arco? Perhaps. But what pricetag do you put on being able to heal those Wind Riders that do survive or that you equip with a heavy blessing?

I have had great successes with GE Arco. But all my successes have been with not using Wind Riders at all because my playstyle, while very centralized around mobility, does not play into the cost effectiveness of Wind Riders. So in effect boosting or making the Wind Riders more viable for me, would strengthen the entire theme, probably to the point that some might feel it is better than the Arco Base, which is exactly what a Theme is not intended to do.

Scott Hebert

June 24th, 2004, 12:34 AM

I stated what I felt to be true.If you had done any research, however, you would have seen that the statement did not apply to me, and thus had no place in the post except as an implied insult.

You implied you felt cheaper mages were only good for forging and communion slaves (and blood hunting I imagine).If that's what you 'got out' of my statement, let me be clearer. The overwhelming use of cheaper mages is to be research or bloodhunt, especially in the early-game, because they are more efficient.

Great, let's improve the wind rider then shall we?Read what I wrote again. I did not say 'underpowered'; I said 'overpriced'. That is, I think they should cost around 100g, because their kill rate is much higher than comparable units (like the Valkyrie). However, they don't compare well to Gryphon Riders, so they probably should fall somewhere between the two.

I seem to recall that was what my mod did. Giving GE a well-costed large flier would most likely improve the theme quite a bit, and it's what I've advocated all along.I disagree with how you modified them. Awe is totally inappropriate for them, IMO. And I hope you gave the Crystal Amazon Pegasus Riders Awe, too, if your reasoning for the Awe is because of the Pegasi. I would never give a flying sacred unit Awe, personally.

Also, that was not the only change you made. The changes seemed geared towards making Golden Era Arco play more like base Arco, which doesn't seem what the developers wanted.

Blitz

June 24th, 2004, 12:43 AM

I have had great successes with GE Arco. But all my successes have been with not using Wind Riders at all because my playstyle, while very centralized around mobility, does not play into the cost effectiveness of Wind Riders. So in effect boosting or making the Wind Riders more viable for me, would strengthen the entire theme, probably to the point that some might feel it is better than the Arco Base, which is exactly what a Theme is not intended to do.I'd be interested to know if you've found some tactics with GE that I haven't. I generally relied on earth summons (and air queens), using my early research ability to get me there quickly. The construction earth buffs helped my cardaces quite a bit, and I added a few chariots and icarids to attack the flanks and rear. I think the early research boost can help offset the weaknesses of cardaces, hopefully long enough to get knights or other strong independants going.

While this strategy is somewhat succesful, I wish I could justify using wind riders more... as I see them as the signature unit of the theme. I think the devs may have overestimated the power of the rider and costed him unfairly.

June 24th, 2004, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
I'd be interested to know if you've found some tactics with GE that I haven't. I generally relied on earth summons (and air queens), using my early research ability to get me there quickly. The construction earth buffs helped my cardaces quite a bit, and I added a few chariots and icarids to attack the flanks and rear. I think the early research boost can help offset the weaknesses of cardaces, hopefully long enough to get knights or other strong independants going. Well it's a game by game basis which tactics I use. But In General?

 Heavy Combat Oriented Pretender viable both Early and Late Game (Think Natty, PoD, Phoenix, Daughter, Cyclops) Mass Engineers Early sacrifice of Expansion to get a Second Fortress up Immediately Midgame I rely on Golembatants until I get my Mystic Support Spells in Line Abuse of Communion at every concievable opportunity
With my strategy I don't have as many Provinces as I would with normal Arco, but I have the unsiegable fortresses pushing in while I fortify heavily with Mass Mystic and Gateway in heavy chariot armies with support that will even roll Devil armies with Golem and Mechanical Men support. The key is to get the right amount of research fast enough while not depleting your gem income too far. This is why it's key to use your early gem income to fuel search spells (I'm not talking Acashic here).

Blitz

June 24th, 2004, 01:02 AM

The overwhelming use of cheaper mages is to be research or bloodhunt, especially in the early-game, because they are more efficient You've stated this again, and rather than unintentionaly insult you again, I'll try to be clearer.

Many if not most nations have cheaper mages that are in many circumstances more cost effective at doing various things. You've correctly identified researching and forging, and I reminded you of blood hunting... but on the battlefield there are many reasons why a cheaper mage might be better. Taking again, the seithkona who can cast both healing light and nether darts... her fatigue will be higher from these spells, but obviously two seithkona can cast them twice as often at less than half the price. Other good examples of this are the Marignion witch hunter, the Plythium Therug, the Caelum Seraph, the Machaka sorceress, the mother of avalon, and others. Clearly there are many situations where spending double the gold on a mage to cast the same spells is not effective.

Scott Hebert

June 24th, 2004, 01:15 AM

You've stated this again, and rather than unintentionaly insult you again, I'll try to be clearer.That would be appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Many if not most nations have cheaper mages that are in many circumstances more cost effective at doing various things. You've correctly identified researching and forging, and I reminded you of blood hunting...And I thank you for that reminder.

but on the battlefield there are many reasons why a cheaper mage might be better. Taking again, the seithkona who can cast both healing light and nether darts... her fatigue will be higher from these spells, but obviously two seithkona can cast them twice as often at less than half the price. Other good examples of this are the Marignion witch hunter, the Plythium Therug, the Caelum Seraph, the Machaka sorceress, the mother of avalon, and others. Clearly there are many situations where spending double the gold on a mage to cast the same spells is not effective.Certainly, and I don't try to imply otherwise. However, I wasn't aware that the Evocation-7 necessary to cast Nether Darts qualified as 'especially early game'.

I simply don't see myself using, or hear of most others using, their cheap mages early in a combat role, or _any_ role other than researcher, bloodhunter, or (occasionally) cheap-item forger.

My point in all of this relative to GE Arco is that the Philosopher gives up the forging/battle roles that the Seithkona in order to give the same research at a cheaper price. 40g + 2.6667g per turn cheaper.

_Especially_ early-game, this difference is huge. Considering the other differences between GE Arco and Utgard Jotunheim, it should be much easier for Arco to afford the non-troop expenditures (forts/labs/temples/mercs) than Utgard Jotunheim, all other things being equal (and I'm not saying they are).

Just something to consider.

Scott Hebert

June 24th, 2004, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by Zen:
Well it's a game by game basis which tactics I use. But In General?

[quote]Heavy Combat Oriented Pretender viable both Early and Late Game (Think Natty, PoD, Phoenix, Daughter, Cyclops)By daughter, do you mean the Daughter of the Land? I wasn't aware she was considered a Combat-oriented Pretender. I see as 'clam factory', normally.

Mass EngineersPerhaps the most underestimated GE Arco commander.

Midgame I rely on Golembatants until I get my Mystic Support Spells in LineThis (and the other Earth summons) is why I wish GE could get Golem Cult. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Hell, if they charged GE 50 points and gave them auto-Golem Cult, I'd still play them.

Abuse of Communion at every concievable opportunityThis is fun with Mystics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm most curious about that Daughter thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Blitz

June 24th, 2004, 01:24 AM

However, I wasn't aware that the Evocation-7 necessary to cast Nether Darts qualified as 'especially early game'.
Healing light and nether bolt are evo 5 IIRC. With jotunheim that level of evocation is a high priority.

[ June 24, 2004, 03:16: Message edited by: Blitz ]

Graeme Dice

June 24th, 2004, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
By daughter, do you mean the Daughter of the Land? I wasn't aware she was considered a Combat-oriented Pretender. I see as 'clam factory', normally.She's the best of the 50 point humanoids, as she has giant stats, starts with water magic for quickness, and can easily afford to put another couple of paths at 3 magic for combat purposes. I use her with C'Tis an awful lot.

numskully

June 24th, 2004, 03:05 AM

Blitz, your doing a very fine job on your subject. props to you, for it all makes sense.

the engineer has been brought up, but why is his resource cost 50? its hard enough to make units on this team (a team that isnt blood or death summoning).

Scott Hebert

June 24th, 2004, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
Healing light and nether bolt are const 5 IIRC. With jotunheim that level of evocation is a high priority.Er, don't you mean Evo intead of Const? They're actually Evocation-3 and -4, respectively. While interesting, about the only thing I would research early in Evocation is to get Arcane Probing. I would have to evaluate whether or not the other spells were worth it, that early in the game.

How do you use the Seithkonur, if you do get that high, though? I find it hard to imagine you're going to want to fire Nether Bolts into a melee, considering the effects should they hit your giants. OTOH, I don't see how they would be effective as a 'solo' magical attack squad. Do you use Vinemen to protect them, or something?

Honest question here. About the only time I do something like this (magical attack squads) is with Caelum.

To be perfectly honest, though, I almost prefer base Jotunheim to Utgard. Much better Bloodhunting. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I normally find with Jotunheim that I want rather high Enchantment, for Revenants and other fun Death stuff. With Utgard's increases focus on Astral magic, I can see why taking more Evocation is desirable, but I'm rather leery of trying to bring Seithkonur into combat without some sort of mass Communion or something.