Players needed for an experimental game

[Nagot Gick Fel]

PBEM at first, since I haven't a permanent IP.

If the game concept doesn't prove to be a total failure after a few turns, I will try to find a spot on Mosehansen's server, or similar.

[tinkthank]

This sounds very nice -- however, may I ask how quickly turns will be hosted? I cannot do more than 4-7 turns per week maximally, and would like to know your timeframe, feelings on slower folks, and stale turns. Thank you in advance

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
This sounds very nice -- however, may I ask how quickly turns will be hosted?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">See 2) in the original post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I cannot do more than 4-7 turns per week maximally, and would like to know your timeframe, feelings on slower folks, and stale turns. Thank you in advance <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, since it's an experiment, I don't really want to spoil the results because of stale turns, at least early. I'll try to have the game moving at ~1 turn/day initially, maybe down to 3/week after a while, or if there's a whole lot of players.

It's likely turns will be generated at midnight, GMT+0. It makes conVersions to local time easier for people from all around the world. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[tinkthank]

Sorry, I dont know why I missed that originally. Great. Thanks, I will try to mail you when I get back to Berlin (tomorrow).

[En Forcer]

I'm in!!!

Yay!!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Tuna-Fish]

Cool! I'm in.
Expect races/lists tomorrow, busy now.

[Quarthinos]

Email sent...

[Nagot Gick Fel]

1) I won't play, for obvious reasons.

2) Game will start using 2.12, no mods. Indep strength 6, HoF on, public scores off, everything else set to default. Expect 5 turns/week in the beginning, but we'll probably use a slower schedule after a while, or if many players participate. After all, it's an experimental game.

3) Every volunteer will have to email me at jacquesvidalZhotmailZcom (replace the Zs with the relevant characters) with:

* A list of the 17 available nations (or as many as possible, the more the better), listed in order of preference (most preferred top, less preferred bottom).

* The 2h files for every listed nation, zipped in a single archive. Again, I'd prefer you to send as many nations as possible. Please leave the nation files UNPASSWORDED.

* Optionally, the password you want to use in this game. When your nation is chosen, I'll create a new nation file for you using that password. If you don't provide a password, I'll choose one for you.

The subject line of your message must start with [dom2exp] (including the brackets), for convenience.

4) DON'T POST YOUR RACE CHOICES ON THIS FORUM! It's very important you keep your nation secret until I explain what the game will be about!

5) When I have enough volunteers (15+), I'll post the victory conditions on this board. I WON'T ACCEPT NEW NATION FILES AFTER THE VICTORY CONDITIONS ARE MADE PUBLIC. At this point, I expect a few players to retract and refuse to join the game because of these conditions, but that's OK. If I have more than 17 volunteers left, I'll start 2 games instead of one. The map will be chosen at this point, depending on the number of players. Expect ~10 provinces/starting nation.

6) Then nations will be allotted to the remaining players using the following algorithm:

(a) start with N = 1
(b) if a player Nth pick is a nation that's still unowned, and noone else listed it as his Nth choice, give that nation to the player, cross the nation and the player off
(c) if there are still players without nations, increment N and go to (b)

If this isn't enough to resolve ties (people submitting the same list, say), I'll let a flipped coin decide who gets what.

7) Because of the atypic victory conditions, veterans aren't guaranteed to get the sharp edge they usually have over newbies, so the game is open to players of all levels. Further, these victory conditions are likely to make pre-game alliances utterly useless, if not worse - You've been warned!

8) No restriction on nations, strategies, tactics, diplomacy, whatever.

[Zapmeister]

Nagot (if that is your real name http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) will the game be hosted PBEM or network?

[Karacan]

I don't have the time for such a fast-paced game, but you got my curiousity pricked. Inform us poor observers of your non-standard victory conditions once you got started, please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[tinkthank]

My humble noobness is in now too. Will you email us with confirmations and instructions?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
My humble noobness is in now too. Will you email us with confirmations and instructions? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jawohl. Once I have at least 15 volunteers I'll explain the game conditions in this thread. As I said, I expect a few players to not accept them, but I hope there'll be enough left to make the experiment interesting.

You can make changes to your choices until I post the game conditions, but not after.

[reverend]

I would like to participate. This would be my first Dom2 MP game, and first PBEM ever.

If that's ok, I will send my mail and nations later today. A short explanation of the PBEM procedures also is needed once the game starts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by reverend:
I would like to participate. This would be my first Dom2 MP game, and first PBEM ever.

If that's ok, I will send my mail and nations later today. A short explanation of the PBEM procedures also is needed once the game starts. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since NGF will be hosting, you send him your .2h files (the first time: from your Newlords folder), and he will send you your turns as .trn files. You copy those to a folder in your dom2 folder on your computer with the name of the game (e.g.: Experimental_Game), then play your turn, and subsequently mail NGF your completed turn in the form of a .2h file you will find in the Experimental_Game folder. Repeat.

[Balmoth]

I have sent 17 pretender files.

How do you make the draw for pretenders, if some players just posted 3 files and other 17?

[En Forcer]

Files sent. 9 Pretender choices entered.

Looking forward to trying this out! Sounds interesting!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Tannath]

Files sent today. 14 pretenders.
Waiting for some news http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Nagot Gick Fel]

So far I've received only pretenders from the following players:

metanile
Stelteck (only 4, a few more would be better)
Zenus
tinkthank
Balmoth

I still need about twice as many. C'mon people, a recent poll showed that your main interest in Dominions is to play to 'experiment new things'. That's your chance!

[Tannath]

Nagot, didn't you receive my files?

[reverend]

Mail sent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Only 11 nations, if you need more, let me know.

My designs probably will cause some laughter, but I'm in for the fun anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Norfleet]

Does anyone else think this sound really dodgy? He wants you to leave all of the pretender files unpassworded. No reason is given. He expects you to just tell him your password instead, even though he has the master password and doesn't need such a thing. Once again, no reason is given. Combined with the secrecy of just about everything involved in the game, including even what map is involved. Plus he expects that people will then immediately drop.

Does this sound a bit suspicious to you? Experimental is one thing, but this sounds like an outright scam.

[Teraswaerto]

16 pretenders sent.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Does anyone else think this sound really dodgy?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hehe. It took you much longer than I expected to come up with this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

It may sound 'dodgy' but there's a reason for this, and you and everyone else will understand when the game & victory conditions are made public. At this point, you'll be free to quit if these conditions don't suit you. Meanwhile, you have nothing to loose bar the time it takes to design a few pretenders and send them to me.

And I remind you rule #1: I won't play in this game.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by reverend:
Mail sent. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Only 11 nations, if you need more, let me know.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That should be fine. The problem is you used a format I'm not familiar with (.ace). What kind of tool do I need to unpack this? If none is available as freeware, I'd like you to send them in zip format.

My designs probably will cause some laughter, but I'm in for the fun anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That Last point is the one that really matters. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[reverend]

Oh, sorry. I always use winace ( www.winace.com (http://www.winace.com) ), since it usually has a better compression than .zip

Btw. some scam indeed. Stealing our precious pretenders, lol. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[PvK]

No, it sounds quite reasonable and good-willed. I even have an idea of sort of what he has in mind, and it sounds interesting. I would have signed up if I didn't already have too many games going and way too much work to do and other stuff to do etc.

As for why people might drop after learning the rules, that's understandable, since he means to do something unexpected that some players might not like. Many players only like certain kinds of games and certain approaches to play. I won't speculate, since I wouldn't want to influence the experiment that way.

PvK

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Does anyone else think this sound really dodgy? He wants you to leave all of the pretender files unpassworded. No reason is given. He expects you to just tell him your password instead, even though he has the master password and doesn't need such a thing. Once again, no reason is given. Combined with the secrecy of just about everything involved in the game, including even what map is involved. Plus he expects that people will then immediately drop.

Does this sound a bit suspicious to you? Experimental is one thing, but this sounds like an outright scam. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by PvK:
I won't speculate, since I wouldn't want to influence the experiment that way.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">THANK YOU! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[daesthai]

I'm in! Just sent my list of preferences and pretender files. I'm still very new to the game, so I hope I don't embarass myself TOO much, but either way, I'm ready to have some fun! Plus MP is always the best way I know to learn more.

[PvK]

Ok, I couldn't resist at least giving it a shot. It was interesting picking a god for everyone. There sure are a ton of nations I've not tried yet!

PvK

[Bobum]

I'm in- 17 pretenders sent!

[Balmoth]

How many players do we still need to start the game?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Balmoth:
How many players do we still need to start the game? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think I'll post the VC tomorrow, or at the very Last Wednesday (I'm not at home today). Expect the game to start very soon after that.

[tinkthank]

Superb, merci Jacques!

In case you or anyone else cares, I will be gone all day tomorrow on a conference, will be able to be on Wednesday evening (Europe time) at the earliest -- sorry if this is a hangup.

EDIT: It would be most wonderful if you could notify the players per Email as well as to conditions, just in case some do not access this website...

[ July 05, 2004, 17:35: Message edited by: tinkthank ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

So far I have received files from:

metanile
Stelteck
Zenus
tinkthank
Balmoth
reverend
Daesthai
En Forcer
Tannath
Tuna-Fish
PvK
Bobum (you forgot your list of preferences)
Kalkkis

I've had problem with my HotMail account lately, so if your name isn't listed above (Teraswaerto, maybe others), try to email your files again, it should be fixed now. Or you may want to try this alternate address:

nagotgickfelZyahooZfr

(as usual, replace the Zs with the ad hoc characters - also note the fr suffix, instead of the more usual com).

That's 12 players, 13 with Teraswaerto. I would have liked a few more, anyway I'll submit the VCs as soon as I receive Teraswaerto's files. Remember, NO SUBMISSION WILL BE ACCEPTED AFTER THE VICTORY CONDITIONS ARE MADE PUBLIC, so if you want to give this one a try, you'd better hurry! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Teraswaerto]

Pretenders sent (for the third time now). Hopefully they get there this time.

[Teraswaerto]

DP

[ July 07, 2004, 07:05: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Teraswaerto:
Pretenders sent (for the third time now). Hopefully they get there this time. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If your initials are T.V. and you're from Finland, you're in this time. I'll let you confirm this since neither your profile nor your Messages give a clue you're really that person.

[Teraswaerto]

Yup, that's me. Sorry about that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Submissions closed.

So what's this game all about?

Simple: it's a Killer game. You're both an assassin and a victim, and you score points for killing your victim(s) while avoiding being killed.

The catch is this: your victim will play your chosen nation, and you'll use your own assassin's chosen nation. So as an assassin, you'll get complete knowledge of your victim's nation and pretender. OTOH as a victim you have absolutely no clue about who your assassin is.

I suppose some of you will feel 'cheated' by this and decide to drop out. I understand that. I just hope you won't be too many in that case. For the remaining players, see that as a test of your own adaptability. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Once I know who the remaining players are, I'll do the following:

(1) pick nations depending on your preferences

(2) randomly choose assassin/victim relationships (it will be a loop: A kills B kills C ... kills Z kills A)

(3) generate new pretender files using the chosen designs, except I'll let the game pick random names for pretenders (just so victims have absolutely no clue about who designed the nation they'll play), and OFC I'll put your chosen password on the nation you'll actually play.

(4) pick a map depending on the number of players (probably Inland, because of the wraparound)

(5) place capitals in such a way that the distance from assassin to victim is about the same for everyone

(6) generate the game

With your 1st turn you'll also receive a reminder of your password, and the identity of your victim. Try to keep that info secret, or sell it for something that's really worth it. OFC no rule forces you to tell the truth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Scoring:

The first nation to suffer extinction will grant 6 points to its assassin, even if the said assassin didn't participate in its victim's oblirteration. You don't get points for actively obliterating a nation that's not your designated victim.

The 2nd dead victim is worth 4 points.

The 3rd dead victim is worth 2 point.

The game will end as soon as 3 nations are extinguished. Each survivor will get 5 points.

Note with this system it's possible for 2 succesful killers to win at the same time. That's intended, but I'll leave you as an exercise to figure out why. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Victim status is transferable when a nation dies. Eg, if A is B's assassin, and B is C's assassin, C becomes A's new victim if B dies.

I'm not that happy with the scoring system, but I haven't found anything that did really please me. If anyone thinks of something better, feel free to post your ideas here. It might be these conditions make the game somewhat somewhat unplayable, but after all I stressed the fact it's an experiment enough. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Questions?

[daesthai]

Sounds like a kick! I'm still in. =)

[reverend]

Count me in. Sounds like a lot of fun!


Oh, question: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

How do you "generate new pretender files using the chosen designs"? Do you just start a game and look at the starting province and the pretender, or is there a tool to actually read the pretender designs from the files?

[ July 07, 2004, 20:01: Message edited by: reverend ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by reverend:
How do you "generate new pretender files using the chosen designs"?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Assume your victim will be given "your" Abysia.

I just put the abysia.2h you sent me in my newlords directory, create a new game with Abysia as a human player, load the 1st turn, look at the theme, god, god's magic, castle, dominion strength and scales, and duplicate the design using this data, except I'll add your victim's password. I'll use that duplicate design for your victim when I create the game.

Not simple enough? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 07, 2004, 20:10: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[Balmoth]

Sounds interesting - I'll stay.

[Teraswaerto]

I'm in.

[Norfleet]

Heh. You know, somebody, somewhere, is laughing about this.....the guy who sent 17 FUBAR pretenders is going to be laughing when he winds up having to play none of them.

[Balmoth]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Heh. You know, somebody, somewhere, is laughing about this.....the guy who sent 17 FUBAR pretenders is going to be laughing when he winds up having to play none of them. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes but that is part of the fun. Especially if he gets beaten by his own FUBAR pretenders. But I don't think anybody sent in 17 bad pretenders on purpose. That doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't bad - they were just not intended to. :-)

Being very new to this game, and never having played an aquatic race before, I am not sure I would want to play with my own pretenders.

[Daynarr]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Heh. You know, somebody, somewhere, is laughing about this.....the guy who sent 17 FUBAR pretenders is going to be laughing when he winds up having to play none of them. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe, but I seriously doubt that anyone would make 17 FUBAR's for himself to use in MP and nobody knew that opponents will be using them until all pretenders were submitted. That's probably the reason why Nagot was so secretive.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
Maybe, but I seriously doubt that anyone would make 17 FUBAR's for himself to use in MP and nobody knew that opponents will be using them until all pretenders were submitted. That's probably the reason why Nagot was so secretive. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, at least one player I spoke to had been pondering exactly that. Whether he actually carried through, I don't know. If he did, he's laughing very hard right about now...

And hey, I warned you there was something dodgy involved. The sheer oddness of insisting that we not set a password, and actually tell HIM that password, was pretty suspicious right there.

[tinkthank]

I am definately in -- thanks for your effort so far!

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

Questions? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm afraid I don't understand at all, sorry.

1. Do you mean by "assassin" that my job will be to eliminate a specific opponent nation (either by out-preaching or by conquering all provinces)?
2. Is this correct: If my first choice was, say, Caelum, and I get "assigned" my first choice by the algorithm you mentioned in your first post, then my job will be to assassinate Caelum and I will do this by playing the nation which the Caelum player originally wanted to play?
I don't understand which race it is I will be playing and against whom.
3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week. Does that matter?
4. If I know whom I am supposed to "assassinate", won't they know who it is that is supposed to assassinate them (because I will be playing the nation which they wanted)?

Thanks for clarifying, sorry if I am slow today

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Heh. You know, somebody, somewhere, is laughing about this.....the guy who sent 17 FUBAR pretenders is going to be laughing when he winds up having to play none of them. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you really as untrusting and sceptical as you make yourself appear in your Posts or is this merely a witty and ironic masquerade for the good-natured philanthropic person you really are?

[Tuna-Fish]

Sounds fun, I'm in.


Originally posted by tinkthank:
I'm afraid I don't understand at all, sorry.

I'll try to clarify a bit. Of cource, what i say might all be fubar, but I'll just take the chance

1. Do you mean by "assassin" that my job will be to eliminate a specific opponent nation (either by out-preaching or by conquering all provinces)?

correct, as far as i undrestand it

2. Is this correct: If my first choice was, say, Caelum, and I get "assigned" my first choice by the algorithm you mentioned in your first post, then my job will be to assassinate Caelum and I will do this by playing the nation which the Caelum player originally wanted to play?

...no
Let's say your first choise was caelum, and your victim's first choise was abysia. Your victim plays with the abysia that was created by you, and you will play with the caelum that was created by your assasin. Thus everyone knows everything about their victim and nothing about their assasin.

3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week. Does that matter?

Well, knowing exactly the design of the guy you are supposed to take out would be very helpful, but it's not really mandatory

4. If I know whom I am supposed to "assassinate", won't they know who it is that is supposed to assassinate them (because I will be playing the nation which they wanted)?

No, because you will play the nation you wanted. Simply http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks for clarifying, sorry if I am slow today
Np
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by Tuna-Fish:
Sounds fun, I'm in.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by tinkthank:
I'm afraid I don't understand at all, sorry.

I'll try to clarify a bit. Of cource, what i say might all be fubar, but I'll just take the chance

1. Do you mean by "assassin" that my job will be to eliminate a specific opponent nation (either by out-preaching or by conquering all provinces)?

correct, as far as i undrestand it

2. Is this correct: If my first choice was, say, Caelum, and I get "assigned" my first choice by the algorithm you mentioned in your first post, then my job will be to assassinate Caelum and I will do this by playing the nation which the Caelum player originally wanted to play?

...no
Let's say your first choise was caelum, and your victim's first choise was abysia. Your victim plays with the abysia that was created by you, and you will play with the caelum that was created by your assasin. Thus everyone knows everything about their victim and nothing about their assasin.

3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week. Does that matter?

Well, knowing exactly the design of the guy you are supposed to take out would be very helpful, but it's not really mandatory

4. If I know whom I am supposed to "assassinate", won't they know who it is that is supposed to assassinate them (because I will be playing the nation which they wanted)?

No, because you will play the nation you wanted. Simply http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks for clarifying, sorry if I am slow today
Np
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, thanks! How dim of me... Well, I *hope* that my victim has similar tastes as I do...!

[tinkthank]

Well I suppose I could try to dig my mail out of the "sent" folder, that should work -- thanks!

I had sort of hoped it wouldn't be a "You play someone else's build" game -- I don't dislike such games because I feel "cheated", but I can't imagine me feeling "chez moi" in someone else's design. But ah well -- should still be very interesting!
look forward to receiving a turn soon...!

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I'm afraid I don't understand at all, sorry.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry for not being clear enough... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

1. Do you mean by "assassin" that my job will be to eliminate a specific opponent nation (either by out-preaching or by conquering all provinces)?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sort of - your job will be to make sure this nation is eliminated, however how this is carried out has no effect on the scores. If it's eliminated because of another nation, you'll still get full points.

2. Is this correct: If my first choice was, say, Caelum, and I get "assigned" my first choice by the algorithm you mentioned in your first post, then my job will be to assassinate Caelum and I will do this by playing the nation which the Caelum player originally wanted to play?
I don't understand which race it is I will be playing and against whom.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe an example will help:

Assume there are 4 players, A, B, C and D, and preference lists are shortened to 4 entries for clarity.

A's preferences are:
1 - Ulm
2 - Man
3 - Caelum
4 - Ermor

B's prefs:
1 - Caelum
2 - Ermor
3 - Man
4 - Abysia

C's prefs:
1 - Man
2 - Abysia
3 - Caelum
4 - Ulm

D's prefs:
1 - Man
2 - Caelum
3 - Ulm
4 - Ermor

Let's call A's Ulm design Ulm-A, and so on.

Now let's see which nations will be played. A will get Ulm and B will get Caelum, since noone else chose them as 1st picks. C and D are competing for Man, so none of them will get it. Instead C will get Abysia, since it's still free, and D will Ermor, since his 2nd and 3rd picks are already used by another player.

So the nations and designs will be Ulm-A, Caelum-B, Abysia-C, and Ermor-D.

Now let's decide who kills who: A -> B -> C -> D -> A (A is B's assassin, etc.)

So in the end the player setup will be:

A plays Ermor-D (the Ermor that was designed by D)
B plays Ulm-A
C plays Caelum-B
D plays Abysia-C

The designs will be remade so Ermor-D uses A's password, and so on.

OFC, when the game starts, noone knows who plays what, the only info each player has is the design of his victim's nation.

3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week. Does that matter?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll send everyone his victim's nation design with the first turn.

4. If I know whom I am supposed to "assassinate", won't they know who it is that is supposed to assassinate them (because I will be playing the nation which they wanted)?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope, it's their own victim that will play the nation they wanted.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I had sort of hoped it wouldn't be a "You play someone else's build" game -- I don't dislike such games because I feel "cheated", but I can't imagine me feeling "chez moi" in someone else's design. But ah well<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you should see that as an extra incentive to kill your victim, since it 'stole' the nation you wanted to play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[En Forcer]

oh oh...my assassin is going to be stoked....I made some really decent pretenders....

geez....

Okay, let's see if we can make this work! I'm in...

[PvK]

I pretty much guessed what Nagot had in mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (However I did choose pretenders I thought were good and that I would want to play myself. And no, I'm not the one who was talking to Norfleet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Sounds fun. I'm in.

BTW, I was in a fun and interesting game like this of Space Empires IV Gold. It's a bit easier there in that you can share star systems and fly through foreign positions as long as you have a peace treaty. It's also harder in Space Empires, because of the ability to give things to threatened victims to keep them alive. It got perverse at the end, though, because it was a "game over when the first one dies" game, and the first threatened victim player tried to use reverse psychology by refusing to rebuild himself "my weakness makes me strong", which sort of worked but ultimately backfired. I managed to keep them alive and make myself strong enough to stay alive, but then the race trying to kill me got frustrated at my defenses and blackmailed me to scuttle my defenses or he would end the game by backstabbing the weakest victim. I refused and attacked the blackMailer, the weak victim refused help, and my assassin then killed the weak victim, even though it meant giving the win to the weak victim's assassin.

Fortunately, in this game it won't be possible to trivially keep a weak player alive, and the point system means it's not so "all or nothing". However there is still the interesting element that it is in no one's interest to assassinate anyone except their target, and that target probably won't be a neighbor at first.

I have a question about the scoring though. Supposedly it's intentional that two killers can win... but I don't see how. I only see that a 2nd or 3rd killer can win if all previous killers are dead, but no way to tie.

PvK

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Are you really as untrusting and sceptical as you make yourself appear in your Posts or is this merely a witty and ironic masquerade for the good-natured philanthropic person you really are? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can be a nice guy, but I'm also just as skeptical and untrusting as I appear, if not more so. It's a trait that has kept me alive. If I wasn't this way, I'd already be dead.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by PvK:
I have a question about the scoring though. Supposedly it's intentional that two killers can win... but I don't see how. I only see that a 2nd or 3rd killer can win if all previous killers are dead, but no way to tie.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's possible for 2 players (A and B) to cooperate so that A scores 6 for the first kill, and B scores 4 + 2 for the 2nd and 3rd kills. Remember X -> Y -> Z becomes X -> Z when Y is eliminated, therefore everyone will always have exactly 1 victim and 1 assassin.

The funny part is you have no way to know who your new victim will be before your current victim is eliminated - unless that victim talks too much OFC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . So in the above scenario it's possible that B realizes A is his new victim after he killed the first one.

I forgot to mention I'll keep an eye on the game's progress, so as soon as someone is eliminated I can notify the assassin who his new victim is.

[Tannath]

Sounds really fun. Count me in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[En Forcer]

Here's a question for you:

Are there any points for just killing the Pretender but not wiping out their nation? Like if an assassin gets in and takes a fellow out...

Just a thought. Maybe 1 point?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by En Forcer:
Are there any points for just killing the Pretender but not wiping out their nation? Like if an assassin gets in and takes a fellow out...<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have considered this but eventually decided against it for practical reasons. There are just too many ways to die, and I should make provisions for too many special cases.

What if you and someone else pepper the province where your victim's pretender resides, with rituals like Seeking Arrow or Fires from Afar, and he and at least one other leader die as a result? There's no way to know who actually delivered the killing blow to the pretender. Should I give you points?

What if someone invades the province where your victim's pretender is, and the pretender routs and dies because you just conquered the one province he could retreat to? You didn't even meet this pretender, or try to assassinate him with spells, yet his death is a byproduct of your action. Should I give you points for that?

What if your victim's pretender dies from a disease he got when you wounded him in that battle 2 turns ago? Should I give you points?

These are just 3 examples out of the may ones I figured out while pondering this issue. So put the blame on Dominions' richness, not on me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[En Forcer]

Understood.

Then we really are just considering our pretenders as a sort of "elite" unit. Nothing
more.

I guess what threw me is using the lable "assassin" and "victim" for each side. Perhaps declaring "feud" or "causus belli" or "kanley" or something? A lable more national sounding?

Don't mind me. I'm just chomping at the bit to get into this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[reverend]

Honestly. And here I thought I was paranoid...

[Balmoth]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
...3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week....
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you only need to get the pretender files you sent to NGF, copy all of the pretender files to the new pretender folder, and make a new game with 17 human players (or just your victim as human). This will make you able to see the design you chose.

[tinkthank]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by tinkthank:
I had sort of hoped it wouldn't be a "You play someone else's build" game -- I don't dislike such games because I feel "cheated", but I can't imagine me feeling "chez moi" in someone else's design. But ah well<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you should see that as an extra incentive to kill your victim, since it 'stole' the nation you wanted to play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hee hee! OK, sounds good! When do we start?

[PvK]

Originally posted by En Forcer:
Then we really are just considering our pretenders as a sort of "elite" unit. Nothing
more. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unless you got my designs and then you have a Crone with no magic...

... just kidding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PvK

[Bobum]

This sounds cool - I'm still in

[reverend]

Great to hear that this game is starting soon. But (don't take this the wrong way) I'd rather have such mass-mails with the recipients in the BCC ( -> blind ) list than in the normal "TO" field. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by reverend:
I'd rather have such mass-mails with the recipients in the BCC ( -> blind ) list than in the normal "TO" field. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Quarthinos]

Has the first turn gone out yet, and I missed it?

My spam filter is acting a bit wonky, so it might have been deleted by mistake http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[PvK]

I just got mine not long ago.

PvK

P.S. However, I can't start it. It says it can't find a mod file called misf15.dm. Was this a mistake when creating the game (forgot to disable a mod?) or do we need to do something special (like go get a mod) to play?

[ July 14, 2004, 01:31: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Yup, I forgot to disable a mod before generating the game. Check your mailbox again.

[reverend]

Now that the game has started... What about diplomacy? How much is allowed and by what means?

I can already see that this is gonna be fun AND a good experience. Got one of the races I'm least experienced with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by reverend:
Now that the game has started... What about diplomacy? How much is allowed and by what means?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Didn't you read the rules? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The answer is there:

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
8) No restriction on nations, strategies, tactics, diplomacy, whatever. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have a goal: score points by having your victim(s) being ousted from the game. Use whatever means you'll find appropriate to fulfill that goal.

(Except means such as the physical elimination of the player controlling that nation, OFC. These rules aren't applicable outside of the game limits! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

[En Forcer]

Hah!

You will all die as squishy bits under my steel boots!

But I can't tell you just who I am....because my assassin might be reading this.

But you just wait and see!!!!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ July 14, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: En Forcer ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

One of the players who signed up for the game seems to have vanished. He must be experiencing RL problems since he also failed to submit turns in other games lately, and isn't replying to emails.

So I'm looking for a replacement for Vanheim. At the time I'm posting this, all nations but Vanheim have submitted orders after receiving their first turn, but the new turn hasn't been generated yet. To avoid the game stalling for too long, I may have to submit basic orders for Vanheim myself, so if you're interested you won't have to rule over an underdevelopped nation. Be sure to check this thread if you haven't done it yet, as this is a very special game with very special victory conditions.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Forget the previous post, it seems the missing player eventually resurfaced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[En Forcer]

Shall we iterate some sort of standing rule?

Say... if a player doesn't respond in 36 hours the administrator takes over the turn in the interest of all the other players.

36 hours seems more than enough time to contact someone or find an alternate means of communication if your system is down to let us know.

What do you guys think?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by En Forcer:
Shall we iterate some sort of standing rule?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The rule should be in your mailbox by now. As well as a new turn.