I suck with Pythium ... please help!

[Huzurdaddi]

I need help!

As I have stated before my inital strategy with pythium is based upon Principes backed up with lots of Theurg Acolytes casting Body Etherial. Works dandy for expanding. However I have three problems:

1) I can't figure out how to summon anything worth while. It's fustrating. I commonly have a good number of gems by turn 30 ( like 600 or so of various types sitting in the bank ) but nothing at all to spend them on. Maybe that's the curse of taking a rainbow mage?

2) I can't get blood worth crap and I *really* dig blood. But with the nerf to blood hunting it seems that blood is not for pythium.

3) I can't really figure out what is decent battle magic. I know that I have access to basically any air, water or astral battle magic but I can't find anything that really, really kicks ***. I've tried mass soul slay, mass enslave mind, mass stellar cascades but none of them *really* kick ***. Orb lighting would kick ***, but it's range seems to limit me from using it a lot ( I guess I should put my army right at the front or something ). And falling frost really does not seem to get the job done that well. I was even somewhat unimpressed with thurges casting Nifel Flames ( oh how I wanted that to work out! ). Wrathful skies seems to be the only spell that *really* kicks *** but it kicks my *** too! I guess I could try Shimmering Fields. There has to be *something* that I am missing. Oh I like nether darts, but sadly you don't get many casters with the ability to cast that. How should I use communion! I know it's massivly powerful but what to use?

[Huzurdaddi]

Oh I guess the one battle magic that I do know that works with communion is banishment. Sadly I'm allied with Ermor so that's a no-no. But it would be *really* funny to watch. 6 or so level 6 preists that would be funny to watch!

[PvK]

I think you probably just need to get more play experience. The things you are describing can be very very effective, if used in the right ways and numbers, against the right foes. For example, I don't know how mass soul slay can be ineffective, unless fighting things with high MR or that don't have souls or have tons of hitpoints or something. Communion is great with Pythium because of their cheap communion slaves. Basically you want a bunch of them, and they will allow your mages to cast more powerful spells with tons of fatigue to spare.

PvK

[SelfishGene]

Its funny before on multiplayer game i strongly considered taking Pythium but decided not to because of the exact same reasoning in not having anything to summon (i wanted to make a rainbow).

You say the high level astral spells aren't any good? I was always aiming one day to try out some of the battlefield wide luck and mind control spells, but haven't ever gotten far enough yet to test them out (or/ie got bored and quit before then)...

If you took the Divine Emperor, however, you can place more Astral buffs on him than on any other Pretender chassis in the game. I beleive its Skull Cap +1, up to four of the following: Tome of High Power +1, Forbidden Light +2, Crystal Coin +1, and The Rings of Wizardry and Sorcery +1; and the Robe of the Magi +1. +7 Astral would make a pretty powerful battlefield caster, even if he only started with 4 or 5. Than how many more Astral buffs are there possible during the battle? Banner of Northern Star +1, Astral Self Buff +1, i think maybe one more... and on top of that, you get the communion bonuses, which will probably >= +3. So assuming 4 astral at the start, you get as a maximum uh, 14?. Doesn't sound too shabby for a flabby human.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by SelfishGene:
Forbidden Light +2<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> Doesn't sound too shabby for a flabby human. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think horror-marking your flabby human is a good idea.

[HotNifeThruButr]

wait... weren't you the one who wrote the Pythium guide?

Anyways, I would convert my gems into something all my casters can work with. If you want to turn one elemental gem into another, you can convert it astral pearls first.

[Huzurdaddi]

wait... weren't you the one who wrote the Pythium guide?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well it was an initial try at a pythium guide!

And I've found the 1st part of the guide to be serviceable. You can expand quite well against high defence indeps with Principies+Theurg Acolytes casting body etherial. Works quite well.

And I wrote that guide without having played multiplayer which has shown me a big hole in the guide.

The problem with my strategy is what do you summon? And what kind of magic do you use after soul slay gets old?

I mean my current formula is something like :

1) research until turn 5 to get alteration 3.
2) expand using Principes ( and a few standards ) + theurg acolytes.
3) add in some theurgs and communicants to cast all of the soul slay/enslave mind that/stellar cascades that you want.
4) ????
5) ????

The strategy works great until 4. The problem is I don't know what to do after that! People are usually running around with mass summons and/or powerful SCs and they are hard to take down.

So seem to do quite well until about turn 40 or so and then it breaks down. I don't know what to do! Oh and whatever it is that I should do ( blood hunt a LOT? Figure out what to summon? ) I have to learn to somehow do it before turn 30 or so. I feel like I am *really* slow.

[ July 03, 2004, 07:50: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

[Boron]

yep i have the same problems .
i started my first mp game 2 days ago so i am at turn 2 = no expierience in mp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

i liked pyhthium but as you say there are no good astral summons . and i don't know yet how do design a good pretender for pyhtium because the arch theurgs are expensive and the principles need much resources so you can't take a sloth scale .
if you don't have some paths at your pretender you have nothing good to summon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

in the late game with astral 3 water 1 on arch theurgs you only need +1 water / astral and can summon abominations but thats really late game .

blood is only useful if you find indep blood hunters and/or a site with a high blood summon bonus of 40+% ihmo .

i really like pythium but suck with them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Master Shake]

Pythium is a great nation. With it's strong astral mages and gem income, coupled with the easy and early generation of clam of pearls for more astrals all mean strong flexibililty in the later game.

A good early-mid strategy is to recruit indy archers and go for Wind Guide. Principes are great basic infantry, especially with the standards to boost morale. Backed up by astral magic and wind-guided archers, it's a good combo.

The key to Pythium, however, it to go for Acashic Record (AR) early. Go for those Waste, Mtn and Forest provinces, and cast AR on them (Wastelands first) early. You should get set up for a good, broad gem income with that. With your Arch Theurgs' random pick, or with Sages, Druids, Amazons, or those flying death mages, you can get into many different magic lines and summons.

Air elemental queens are awesome, the Harbinger, or even better Angelic Host (which get you a strong Fire Mage). Contact Couatl can get you into Nature magic if you haven't already done it with Druids. Death is very easy to get into with a death 1 sage or an Arch Thuerg with a random death pick.

Edit: Forgot to add that your water magic can easily get you to Summon Troll King Court, which puts you into the water in force.

[ July 04, 2004, 22:05: Message edited by: Master Shake ]

[Kel]

Originally posted by Boron:
and i don't know yet how do design a good pretender for pyhtium because the arch theurgs are expensive and the principles need much resources so you can't take a sloth scale . <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or you can not make heavy use of principes.

Or you can make fast 2 turn castles and produce them from multiple points.

Or both.

- Kel

[Huzurdaddi]

Or you can not make heavy use of principes.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Waaa? But they are excellent for the cost. I don't know why people cry about how much they cost it's not like they cost resources like HI. They cost 19 resources. That's 33% less than most HI. They are *CHEAP* for what they do.

A good early-mid strategy is to recruit indy archers and go for Wind Guide. Principes are great basic infantry, especially with the standards to boost morale. Backed up by astral magic and wind-guided archers, it's a good combo.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think that Pythium needs help in the early game. The principie takes care of the early game. You can even add in Therug Acolytes to make them *very* good against independents or any nation unlucky to be placed next to you.

The problem happens later, at least for me. Around turn 35-45 standard units become much less powerful compared to what they are facing. And I am having a problem fielding an army to match the other side. The problem, I think, boils down to the lack of death, blood or high air paths. The 1st two of these two schools have very powerful summons in the end game and air has very powerful battle magics. While Pythium has air magic it is only level 2, and it is on a very expensive unit. I understand that a nation can not have it all. But having one of these three things seems to be the ticket in the end game.

Hence in my current game I am doing anything and everything I can to cultivate both death and blood. It's slow going. It's tough, but it's the only option that I see.

Oh and I am going to make a good number of harbringers to counter other people's blood and death.

[ July 05, 2004, 05:28: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

[Balmoth]

This idea assumes you have a pretender with S4, D1 and/or A5.

An idea for the Pythium mid-game could be to aim for conjuration 6 and cast Ether gate. Expensive gemwise, but yields 15 hard to kill Ether Warriors. and a DDSSSS commander that besides being a good combat mage is definately SC material.

After this go for Conjuration 7 and put the air gems to good use in summoning the Queens of elemental air. These are fine SCs in my experience. But it might be a race to get these first. You might need to convert some gems to get them.

These should help you through the mid game

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Huzurdaddi:
The 1st two of these two schools have very powerful summons in the end game and air has very powerful battle magics. While Pythium has air magic it is only level 2, and it is on a very expensive unit.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Say it with me here: COMMUNION.

Yes, Air has very powerful battle magics, some of which require a fair level of skill to cast. Yes, the Pythiumians don't have as high an innate level of air proficiency as, say, Caelum or Vanheim. However, Pythium is ALL about the communion. Reaching any reasonably useful level of magic for all but the most ludicrously pathy spells is trivial for an Arch Theurg with sufficient communicants. The randoms, combined with the communioning, will let you use any spell in the game.

As for Air, you don't even have to worry about accidentally electrocuting your communicants: If the master casts Resist Lightning, all commslaves will be protected as well. Communion is fun.

This, of course, does not address the fact that your ritual-casting and forging ability is not that strong, but the right picks in pretender magics can easily circumvent this issue.

[Taqwus]

Hm, those Ether Lords might be nasty nether-dart machines when Communioned. Pricey for that 'tho; Lamia Queens might be more cost-efficient if you can get a Nature supply and caster.

[Tuna-Fish]

Also, you keep asking for summons. Personally, I dont think pythium is a summon-nation, but instead they should base on a more conventional army with great battlefield magic. Just give those principes of yours mistform, luck, mass protection, whatever, and they become a force that even the most powerful SC's take frigging decades to kill. Then use them to shield your mages that can cast some real nasty damage spells with the help of communion. Even paralyse is very very nasty when cast by a mage that has effective astral of 8, and a spell focus...

I personally like a pythium strategy that has an e-10 cyclops as a pretender. He gives your mages, and most importantly, communicants, great reinvigoration, and also can cast the spell "enliven statues" with frightful efficiency when you slap on earth boots. Statues are very good sc-fodder, and when boosted by just a little they become very very hard to kill. Also, the cyclops can cast things like army of lead, blade wind with gazillion blades, and earthquake.
Just give him a load of gems and a staff of storms (to protect him), and perhaps some armour, and attack enemy army, cast earthquake twice, and flee: instant army-shredder.

Also, when you have army of lead up, earthquake is not really very harmful for you.

[godofdun]

I haven't heard much discussion about the hydras/hatchlings, is there a way to make them useful? With their poison cloud and no real easy way to give ur troops poison resistence they seem to be more harm than help. And what about the gladiators? Has anyone found a way to make them usefull at all?

[Arryn]

godofdun said:
I haven't heard much discussion about the hydras/hatchlings, is there a way to make them useful? With their poison cloud and no real easy way to give ur troops poison resistence they seem to be more harm than help.

Mass Flight (Enchant-7 Air-4), send them into the enemy rear to wreak havoc. Or put them in your front center with missile troops along your flanks (well out of the path of any rout) and charge them into the enemy front supported by your missileers.

Then there's Serpent's Blessing (Enchant-7 Nature-4) which protects your whole army versus (natural) poison. (I haven't cast this spell myself, so I'm not sure, but it should protect against the hydra poison.)

[godofdun]

Arryn said:
quote]Mass Flight (Enchant-7 Air-4), send them into the enemy rear to wreak havoc. Or put them in your front center with missile troops along your flanks (well out of the path of any rout) and charge them into the enemy front supported by your missileers.

Then there's Serpent's Blessing (Enchant-7 Nature-4) which protects your whole army versus (natural) poison. (I haven't cast this spell myself, so I'm not sure, but it should protect against the hydra poison.)



Hmmm, yeah, thatd work, just seems very cost prohibitive compared to the mass principe idea, you can get 16 of those guys for the same price (350), even though itl take more turns. Would the hatchlings be better since they are better priced, even though they don't have lesser fear?

[Arryn]

Check out this thread: On using poison cloud units... (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB74&amp;Number=272569&amp;Forum= f74)

and this one: On Pythium and Hydras (http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB74&amp;Number=256330&amp;Forum= f74)

This forum's SEARCH function is quite handy ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[archaeolept]

I always go principe, though some prefer the hastati for the gold savings. hatchlings are quite close to useless; the full grown, except in serpent cult, rarely of use. good against miasma c'tis.

the gladiators are, in theory, a good troop for scratch Last minute defense, say of an isolated mage communion. or as the lead troops in a battle you expect to take very heavy losses in. In practice, I almost never buy any. I once bought some (in a very early game) on the theory that they were cheap patrollers, until they caught a scout... ;p

[godofdun]

haha, yes, the n00b alert has been launched! hit the deck! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif Thx though

[godofdun]

archaeolept said:
I once bought some (in a very early game) on the theory that they were cheap patrollers, until they caught a scout... ;p



yeah, i can see how they would be wonderful for patrolling, especially if you wen't for blood with your pretender or something.

[Cainehill]

archaeolept said:
I always go principe, though some prefer the hastati for the gold savings. hatchlings are quite close to useless; the full grown, except in serpent cult, rarely of use. good against miasma c'tis.

the gladiators are, in theory, a good troop for scratch Last minute defense, say of an isolated mage communion. or as the lead troops in a battle you expect to take very heavy losses in. In practice, I almost never buy any. I once bought some (in a very early game) on the theory that they were cheap patrollers, until they caught a scout... ;p



Heh. Not sure - think it was another game, against Quantum Mechanic, but one of my flying harpy scouts stumbled on his capital. There went about 30 of my allies gladiators, against a scout. Almost makes empowering a scout for Air Trapeze worthwhile - trapeze the scout in, there go the gladiators, then bring in the real army on foot.

About hydras : I find the full grown ones very useful, with the right troop placement, choice of leaders, battle magic. The hatchlings? Even better - they make the _best_ shish kebabs! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Boron]

Hm in theory the hydras are nice .
You could e.g. lead them by a banelord , bane etc. and mix in some undead fodder to prevent routing .
The problem is just that the undead fodder gets killed to easy so it is very costintensive .
You could combine the Hydras with behemoths this should prevent routing and the behemoths should be alive at least sometime .

For Broken Empire ermor they would be much more useful though since they could generate their reanimatefodder undeads in the quantities needed without too high costs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Living statues could work rather well too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Strategic move of 1 and higher upkeep then an Archtheurg limit their usefulness though .

As archaeolept said Principes / Hastatati are just normally more useful .
The "routpreventing" normally takes just too much effort/resources to really consider hydras i think.

[Azhur]

Turns 1-10: Research alteration (all the way to 9). A proper pretender for this tactic has 7S (Oracle?). The use of AR is recommended always when possible. Use soul slay with your theurgs, while principes are doing their job in the front line. It's crucial to conquer first all the surrounding provinces to gain a good resource income. Since Pythium is mainly a resource-trusting nation, use of mercenaries is also acceptable.

Turns 11-20: Trade your gems (with the exception of astral and water) with other players for some astral-enchancing equipment. Start clam hoarding if you have a proper water gem income. Still keep up researching alteration. Try to avoid war against other players (keep em happy with gems and such). It's vital to seize provinces to find new magic sites and researchers. Library is always a nice surprise. What comes to your troops, stick with principes and threugs.

Turns 21-30: Now do everything to keep up with provinces and maintain a good gem income. Secure every corner with your principes and calm players to not to attack you. Use your everly Last piece of gold to buy new researchers, and build labs in such places where you can buy a leader with a research skill. Your pretender should have S9 by now (traded items with other players). Hope you have good astral income, since it's the most important source for the completion of this tactic. Teleport or move your pretender to some isolated province (near the player you'll be attacking), with low income and build a lab down there. Also remember to raise defence.

Turns 31-40: If you've played your cards right, you should have alt 7 by now. Players are becoming more and more hostile and actions must be made. Wait for alteration 9 to be completed and wish for doom horror. If you have good amount of basic troops in the enemy border, commence in. Little by little start bringing Doom Horrors into battlefields. Soon you might be able to give astral enchancing equipment to some hero and make him Doom Horror wisher No. 2.

[Thufir]

I'm playing Pythium right now in an MP game, and it's been great to have this thread resurface, with new comments. In the game, I'm doing reasonably well, but I've made more than my share of tactical mistakes, leading to the following questions.


Cainehill said:
About hydras : I find the full grown ones very useful, with the right troop placement, choice of leaders, battle magic. The hatchlings? Even better - they make the _best_ shish kebabs! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


1) I believe that hydras are effective (played well), but like others I'm having some difficulty in using them cost-effectively. Am I correct in thinking that the main reason why you want hatchlings is simply to make the group bigger at something less than the cost of the full hydras?

If so there must be some more or less optimal ratio between hydras and hatchlings - I'd guess around 1::4. Does that sound reasonable?

2) I've found it very easy to use Principe cost effectively - as such I'm probably over using them. This thread has given me plenty of ideas about using hydras/hatchlings, but what about Emerald Guards? Does anyone out there particularly like them? At the least they seem like good body guards for your Arch Theurgs, but while I haven't tried it yet, it seems like they might be worth paying for in larger numbers as a line behind the Principe, or perhaps mixed in with Principe.

3) On Serpent Cataphracts, they seem like really good troops, but it's always a tough choice when you know you can get so many more Principe. So far I have put together a few times Groups of 5-7 Cataphracts, and they have been effective, but I wonder if I'm underutilizing them. Also, perhaps because my Groups were too small they didn't survive as long as I might have hoped (although in at least one case they took out a goodly number of devils before routing).

Anyone have any pointers on the minimal size of a Cataphract squad? Has anyone out there found it useful to mix other units in with the Cataphracts? Has anyone out there found the Serpent Lord worth paying for?

4) Currently I'm fighting Abysia, and I've found it particularly difficult to kill devils. I guess I'm doing ok, as the number of devils that are showing up is reducing, but still any pointers on countering devils would be appreciated! And especially pointers on eliminating a raid army of devils plus demonbred would be most appreciated!

[archaeolept]

group of theurgs (say 6+)really preferably w/ spell foci, and communicants(8), fronted by principe w/ some mixed in as theurg guards

quickness, communion master, banish demon X3
(have one scripted to cast the occasional fanaticism too, and one scripted to luck, twist of fate, charge body, astral shield, to buff the commies). more theurgs and communicants are always good.

just make sure to have enough principe or hastati as well to engage the devils.

summon up some false horrors too - no need to communion whichever theurg you assign to that task.

[Arryn]

Thufir said:
Am I correct in thinking that the main reason why you want hatchlings is simply to make the group bigger at something less than the cost of the full hydras?

Yes.

[Thufir]

thanks for the info Arryn, Archaeolept.



archaeolept said:
group of theurgs (say 6+)really preferably w/ spell foci, and communicants(8), fronted by principe w/ some mixed in as theurg guards

quickness, communion master, banish demon X3
(have one scripted to cast the occasional fanaticism too, and one scripted to luck, twist of fate, charge body, astral shield, to buff the commies). more theurgs and communicants are always good.

just make sure to have enough principe or hastati as well to engage the devils.

summon up some false horrors too - no need to communion whichever theurg you assign to that task.



This sounds like excellent advice, and good detailed suggestions on scripting. Assembling this force, and have it be in the right place and the right time (given the strat move of 1 for Arch Theurgs), is a little tricky.

It'd be cool to have this kind of force teleport in somewhere, along with a teleporting/cloud trapezing SC or two. I've tried combining CoW with Arch Theurg teleport, but that doesn't work too well as the CoW hawks rout so quickly against devils.

[archaeolept]

not arch-theurgs, unless you have some special need for their communioned random - say a 1N arch-theurg, communioned, can cast relief x 5

[Thufir]

archaeolept said:
not arch-theurgs, unless you have some special need for their communioned random - say a 1N arch-theurg, communioned, can cast relief x 5



Doh! That makes much more sense. All though it probably indicates I've been under recruiting theurgs, and over recruiting arch theurgs. I like the idea of using a 1N arch theurg, communioned, to get access to relief tho. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

I've found it very easy to use Principe cost effectively - as such I'm probably over using them.




I have the same problem. They are so good that it's hard to stop using them. They really are excellent troops.



hat about Emerald Guards?




Well their stats are fantastic. But their strat move of 1 worries me. As such I never build them. Too bad, since they are so excellent.



Currently I'm fighting Abysia, and I've found it particularly difficult to kill devils.




Indeed that is why I made this post originally. While I was killing the devils at a great rate in the game ( mostly due to errors on the other player's side ) I knew that once he got his act together I was cooked. There really was little I could do to stop them.

All I can say is that nifel flames and shimmering fields are your friends. Those two spells kick *** a little, although they are expensive.

Also falling frost does hurt the devils and that worked somewhat ok. So quickness, communion master, with at least 8 or even better 16 communicants, and falling frost x3 hurts the devils.

But devils are *hard* to kill. They are one amazing troop. And they are basically free. I find that the combination of great SC's and devils make blood empires really hard to combat if they get rolling.



quickness, communion master, banish demon X3




I'll be honest here. I've never tried that. But I have to ask: have you? I mean devils have an MR of 17 which is what gives Pythium fits since a lot of Pythium's battle magic has an MR check. I can see it working, but if that works I think that mass soul slay would work just as well. Perhaps I'm wrong. I would love to hear how you got it working.



not arch-theurgs, unless you have some special need for their communioned random - say a 1N arch-theurg, communioned, can cast relief x 5




That random is golden for Pythium it's true. There are so many possibilities that really can make battles easier. It's too bad that Pythium's magic is so painfully locked into 3 paths. But if they had magic like arco with the very cheap communicant it would be too powerful ( but oh so fun to play ).

[archaeolept]

w/ spell foci and normal positive magic MR subtraction, the devils will have an effective MR of 12. that's not so hot, and they'll be taking serious losses from say 5 quickened theurgs, w/ one theurg casting buffs.

the real advantage of banish demon is that it costs no fatigue, and so the theurg/communicant machine will Last longer. and principe hold up pretty well.

as well, the buffed communicants will do a very good job soaking up attacks from the devils: luck and twist of fate will mean that they will survive on average 5 attacks; astral shield depends upon the level of the caster (5) and i think the spell foci might well still add in, which would lead to a number of turns of paralysis on top of this...

after scripting finishes they may well cast enslave mind or soul slay, which will have somewhat lower penetration but still be fairly effective.

[Huzurdaddi]

Oh and I am playing Pythium in my most recent game ( Boron's game on mosehansen ).

I'm going to do my usual expansion with principes who are etherial. It hurts your research since you have to send out 3-5 casters with your army but it seems to make a decent sized difference.

After that I can switch to mind-burn/Smite based armies for a few turns and then to soul slay armies. That should Last until turn 25-30. Assuming I live that long. But indeps are set somewhat high so I hope that most people will be happy killing them for a while.

The question is what to do after that. I guess you have to rush to AQ ( which probably means getting them before this point ). I really don't know what to do.

[Thufir]

Huzurdaddi said:

I'm going to do my usual expansion with principes who are etherial. It hurts your research since you have to send out 3-5 casters with your army but it seems to make a decent sized difference.




How do you do that? Are you saying 3-5 theurgs, casting body ethereal, placed in and around a principe squad, will make it mostly ethereal?

That does sounds like a neat idea for early game - I'll have to try that next time I play Pythium.

[KroolDeath]

I also have a question about this Body Ethereal thing on the Principe's, and I'm probably going to go off topic a second.

I have seen this mentioned before, perhaps even in this thread, and I am confused about casting Body Ethereal on troops as I would assume the caster would cast it on himself.

What the heck am I missing here? And I just started playing Pythium in one of the newb games so this is of great interest to me.

Krool

[Yossar]

Body ethereal has range one so he can cast it on any adjacent units. If he's next to a large pretender, he'll always cast it on him first. Not sure about other troops.

[Huzurdaddi]

How do you do that? Are you saying 3-5 theurgs, casting body ethereal, placed in and around a principe squad, will make it mostly ethereal?




Yep. Place your principes in a block and sprinkle 3-5 thurges/theurg acos in the block and script x3 body etherial, and set the principies on hold and attack and when they start moving most of them will be etherial.

Or place 10 principes with each thrurg/theurg aco and place the theurg in the middle of the 10 man block and script x3 body etherial and boom you have lots of small blocks of etherial troops.

They are quite good at smashing indeps. Not as good as an SC, but darn good. After a good number of indeps you will have some seriously experienced principes, defence 17 here I come.

[archaeolept]

it is a nice trick. the problem, of course, is the cost of the theurgs, and the lost research this involves.

as well, as there isn't a "hold and fire" command, you can't script the principes to lead w/ a couple javelin tosses.

I'm not sure which is better. Probably, against very high level indeps, I'd go w/ the ethereal when backed by a bit of artillery. Against normal indeps, the principes generally do just fine on their own.

[Arralen]

If you set them to "hold and attack", they'll fire at everything that comes in range. Which is not that great, sadly. So if placed forward enough, you might one lucky shot in before melee begins. If you use big enough stacks, those units in the rear actually fire at the nearby enemy while the front line is fighting.

[Huzurdaddi]

it is a nice trick. the problem, of course, is the cost of the theurgs, and the lost research this involves.




The reason I always thought it worked nicely for Pythium is the nice cheap Acolyte. He gets the job done and at the cost of 5 or so principes, less if you count maintainance.

[Kel]

It's reasonably cheap, gold wise, but it will still hurt your early research.

Of course, if it lets you take a high dollar province that you couldn't otherwise, then you can put that towards anothre castle/lab to catch up in research. If it just saves a couple of principes from dying, though...well, let them do their duty and die for the empire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

- Kel

[Boron]

Arralen said:
If you set them to "hold and attack", they'll fire at everything that comes in range. Which is not that great, sadly. So if placed forward enough, you might one lucky shot in before melee begins. If you use big enough stacks, those units in the rear actually fire at the nearby enemy while the front line is fighting.


Yeah i hate this too . Same with vanheim e.g. . I lost more valkieries because of throwing javelins from huskarls/vans then on indies .

Sometimes the javelins can be quite helpful e.g. when a barbarian horde stops just before you and all fire and the barbarians rout then . But normally you get more casualities through friendly fire by this then enemy kills .

Once you reach alteration 6 you can replace the body etheral by false horror spamming .
Really good against the Last indies / not too big player forces with normal morale like 10-15 .

If you scout earlygame you can give a player some trouble by casting a few call of the winds on his provinces and putting taxes to 200% + evading his main force .

I normally don't invest much in pd only 1 pd but later castles . So do a lot of other players too . So with a bit luck you can earlygame give an opponent some trouble . You need to time it cause it works only for 1-2 turns , after this the enemy will built higher pd http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
But as preparation for war when made properly on turn 10-20 this can prevent the enemy from building troops for 5-10 turns and perhaps even lead to upkeep problems .


Summoning can be a problem with pythium cause your mages can't summon much . So you have to carefully design your pretender according .

With 2.13 harbingers / archangels are a bit valorised .
I guess they will be a good competitor then for the role as good thug with banelords .

Pythium has imo a really good earlygame expansion rate cause you don't need to search provinces and can do this by accashic later .
So you can expand with your SC , first 1 later 2 theurg + principle squads .

[Vynd]

The body ethereal thing is nifty. But the principes are quite good in their own right. I wouldn't bother sending a bunch of mages along with them unless I wanted to crack a really tough indy province. And even then my preference would be to just send more principes.

[Huzurdaddi]

With 2.13 harbingers / archangels are a bit valorised .
I guess they will be a good competitor then for the role as good thug with banelords




Ok you got me interested. What have they done to these summons? I did not see it in the patch notes.



The body ethereal thing is nifty. But the principes are quite good in their own right.




I guess it depends upon the indep settings.

[Huzurdaddi]

So I downloaded the patch and I played enough to get a harbringer and I did not notice a change.

What was the change? Does the horn work now or something?

[Boron]

Huzurdaddi said:
So I downloaded the patch and I played enough to get a harbringer and I did not notice a change.

What was the change? Does the horn work now or something?


It is indirect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Because the Harbinger/Arch angel have 50% Fire resistence they still can use the burning pearl for +4 attack and get 100% Fire resistence ( or at least they should i haven't played much with 2.13 because i don't play much sp anymore and in mp the games are still 2.12 )

So with e.g. Banelord , Ice devil etc you have to chose now whether you want +4 att but only 50% fire resistence or +100% fire resistence .

I think you need 100% fire resistence at least against fire nations like abysia otherwise they can easy incinerate you to death then .

So not the Harbinger/Arch angel are better but with the Burning pearl change the Others like Banelords get a bit worse . Furthermore those 2 are built in sacred + priests on their own to bless them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I always thought bah 50 pearls for a lousy Arch angel when i have to pay only 10 deathgems for a Banelord but a Archangel has 14 base att and 11 base def , the Banelord 14 base att and 14 base def .
So all in all with e.g. a waterblessing + a burning pearl a Arch angel should be slightly better then a Banelord .

[Arryn]

Boron said:
I always thought bah 50 pearls for a lousy Arch angel when i have to pay only 10 deathgems for a Banelord but a Archangel has 14 base att and 11 base def , the Banelord 14 base att and 14 base def .


Archangel is sacred, BL isn't.
AA has 3F and 4H, BL has no magic at all.
AA comes with 6 angels, BL comes by himself.
AA flies, BL doesn't.
AA has awe, BL has chill (awe is arguably more powerful, since it's harder to defend against).

The above items, especially the first two, account for the cost difference.

You need to quit looking at just a unit's combat stats and look at the totality of the unit's traits and gear when you attempt to compare units, and carefully examine how well that gestalt works in actual game play (as opposed to theoretical play).

[Boron]

Arryn said:
You need to quit looking at just a unit's combat stats and look at the totality of the unit's traits and gear when you attempt to compare units, and carefully examine how well that gestalt works in actual game play (as opposed to theoretical play).



You don't need to look at the gear because you normally always replace it anyways by magic items later as long it is not exactly what you want .

We agree here though anyways because i wrote in past tense that i always thought until a short time ago that an Archangel is too expensive . But the past tense should show that i don't think this now anymore especially with 2.13 .


Curious : What else can you do to try out finding good combos then first theoretically thinking what might be good and then testing it practically in mp ?


Arryn said:
AA has awe, BL has chill (awe is arguably more powerful, since it's harder to defend against).





Does cold resistence protect against chill ?

Does awe work against ranged attacks too ? I guess only against melee .

[Arryn]

Boron said:
You don't need to look at the gear because you normally always replace it anyways by magic items later as long it is not exactly what you want .

Wrong, you must. The reason for this is because the game's devs factored it into the unit's cost, regardless of your feelings for the worth of the gear.

When you compare two units on the basis of their cost, you must compare them as-is, not after you've equipped them. Otherwise, you must compare the TOTAL costs for each unit after you've piled on whatever you will stuff them with. Finally, any such comparison is invalid if the units aren't used for the same purpose. Most players would not (for example) equip an Archangel with the same gear that they'd give a Banelord, nor would they employ the AA and BL for the same purposes (BLs are typically used as mini-SCs, AAs as ritual casters and battlefield support).


Boron said:
But the past tense should show that i don't think this now anymore especially with 2.13 .

Perhaps so, but you didn't bother to elaborate as to why you think/thought as you do/did.


Boron said:
Curious : What else can you do to try out finding good combos then first theoretically thinking what might be good and then testing it practically in mp?

I try them first in real SP games. If it sucks in SP it'll very likely suck even worse in MP.


Boron said:
Does cold resistence protect against chill ?

Yes.


Boron said:
Does awe work against ranged attacks too ? I guess only against melee .

No. Yes.

[Huzurdaddi]

I make Harbingers and use them as mobile wrather's and they do an ok job at that. Heck they are one of the few summonable A2 units.

As for Arch angles, I have never used them, but I GUESS that they could be useful as ritual units.

When it comes to combat however the bane lord is pretty much 100% superior.

But that's how it goes with astral magic. You have potenial globals, potent battle magic, but really pretty gosh aweful price/performance summons. Well that's not 100% true I guess doom horrors are decent price performance. Well not really that good to be honest, but you take what you can get.

Unless I am missing something, if so please share!

[Thufir]

Huzurdaddi said:
I make Harbingers and use them as mobile wrather's and they do an ok job at that. Heck they are one of the few summonable A2 units.




What's a "mobile wrather"?

[Arryn]

Well, having had much personal experience myself with archangels (of the Dominions kind, that is), I can safely say that they have their uses. Especially for nations with an abundance of astral income, moderate air income, and no ready source for air mages otherwise. And air magics aside, they are also quite useful in their role as holy-4 priests.

BTW, contrary to the prevailing belief of some, combat isn't necessarily about who's got the biggest baddest toughest sword-swinger. You can rock your enemy's world with potent battle spells that are as much or even more effective. And that's without even getting into Gandalf's favorite area: stealth. Or the subtlety of converting the enemy units into your own. Dominions is a multidimensional game. It's too bad so much of the discussion on this forum is focused on what makes the best hammer ...

[archaeolept]

well, even a minimally equiped banelord will be
20 death + 10 astral +10 water and that's w/out lightning or fire resist.

for 50 astrals you get an archangel + 6 angels, each holy, armed w/ flambeaus which are vicious against demons and moderately tough undead, flying, and w/ some innate fire and lightning resist (only 50%, but more commonly needed than the banelord's poison and cold immunity). The archangel has F3 and H4, both nice and useful in their own right.

If you're running a blessing, and fighting abyssia or mictlan for instance, you might rather want to go for them...

I bought a bunch as marignon once, running an F9 S9 dual bless. Also as Jot fighting ermor, running an F4 W9 bless.

[Huzurdaddi]

What's a "mobile wrather"?




A flying unit that is equipped with a staff of storms and with enough gems to cast Wrathful Skies where needed. An awesomely powerful battlefield spell.



And air magics aside, they are also quite useful in their role as holy-4 priests.




I think you are getting the powers of the two units a little confused. Harbringer: 2A 3H, Arch Angel 3F 4H. But in any case it's a little bit of a stretch to say that a 50 gem summon is worth it for just Holy-4. There may be isolated cases, Ulm comes to mind, but in general that would be a huge waste of gems.



archangel + 6 angels, each holy, armed w/ flambeaus which are vicious against demons and moderately tough undead




Again I'll be honest here. I have never used them against devils. No wait that's not true I now remember trying them out against devils in one of my "what the heck can beat devils" tests. They got, as you would guess from the stats, spanked by devils. Now that was with no bless effect. With a seriously bless effect ( like F9S9 or F9W9 ) maybe they could hold their own.

I was actually thinking that they would do better.

Speaking of better, what the heck is up with the harbringers horn? I have tested them in huge numbers against devils and the horn, which looks deadly, does very little if any damage. Does it perhaps have a MR check?



It's too bad so much of the discussion on this forum is focused on what makes the best hammer ...




I think this is mostly due to the fact that SC's are quite effective in combat and are very mobile. The combination is quite deadly in a strategy game.

[Arryn]

Huzurdaddi said:
I think you are getting the powers of the two units a little confused. Harbringer: 2A 3H, Arch Angel 3F 4H.

Oops. You're right. I did get the path of the two mixed up. (When playing R'leyh I tend to summon both in quantity.) My bad. 3F is even more useful than 3A (IMO), but that's a separate discussion.


Huzurdaddi said:
But in any case it's a little bit of a stretch to say that a 50 gem summon is worth it for just Holy-4. There may be isolated cases, Ulm comes to mind, but in general that would be a huge waste of gems.

Naturally I disagree. A nation like R'leyh can easily afford the gems (by the time I can summon them I generally produce that many astrals each turn thanks to clams) and in this case it's a relatively cheap way to quickly get casters that can bLast your foes with Fires From Afar (and other nice fire spells). To me, the H4 is just icing on the cake.

BTW, as R'leyh, I of course have much better means at hand to deal with devils than trying to face them with kitted-out archangels, which while not a bad tool, isn't the best tool available for such a task. I think it's safe to say that we all consider the AA a "suboptimal" choice for that purpose. OTOH, part of the fun of Dominions is in playing around and seeing how some battles unfold. What's the fun in predictable outcomes of lopsided combats (when you know that your uber-SC is going to slaughter its opponent? Isn't it more exciting to watch an archangel girded for battle with the minions of Hell struggle to overcome powerful foes? Any such victories achieved will taste sweet indeed.

They may not be particularly cost-effective, but as I mentioned earlier, archangels do have their uses, especially under the right circumstances and nations.

[Molog]

Huzurdaddi said:
Unless I am missing something, if so please share!



Telestic animations become unholy with broken empire ermor. 5 astral gems for a level 3 unholy reanimator who can still preach isn't bad, I think.

[Boron]

Arryn said:
BTW, contrary to the prevailing belief of some, combat isn't necessarily about who's got the biggest baddest toughest sword-swinger. You can rock your enemy's world with potent battle spells that are as much or even more effective. And that's without even getting into Gandalf's favorite area: stealth. Or the subtlety of converting the enemy units into your own. Dominions is a multidimensional game. It's too bad so much of the discussion on this forum is focused on what makes the best hammer ...



Yeah Dominions is multidimensional but normally in lategame only either Battlemages or SCs , both with special troop support like devils , storm demons , living statues etc. are promising .

Special mages like soul slay/enslave mind astral mages , charm casting nature mages , deathmages with drain life and earth mages with petrify sure have good chances defeating SCs . The SC advantage is his high mobility + his resistences against some measures which normally work well against mages :
- Strategic spells like Flames / Murdering winter
- Assasins

And you can control your SC better because the mage doesn't follow his script after 5 orders anymore and/or is fatigued after 5-10 turns normally anyways .
Finally taking to much mages to battle hurts your research/summon/forging abilities too much .
SCs are just the most crucial part for most situations because they are good against almost everything and it is their natural role anyways .

I think Stealthtactics normally work rather bad . Gandalf stated this himself not long ago that he does it mainly for fun not to be effective . But you have to pay for the stealth ability so your stealthforce is more expensive then a normal force with about the same combat value .
If your stealthforce is too big it is discovered too easy by patrollers .

So Caelian/Abysian raiding forces are cheaper but have the same or even better effect .

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Huzurdaddi said:
But in any case it's a little bit of a stretch to say that a 50 gem summon is worth it for just Holy-4. There may be isolated cases, Ulm comes to mind, but in general that would be a huge waste of gems.

Naturally I disagree. A nation like R'leyh can easily afford the gems (by the time I can summon them I generally produce that many astrals each turn thanks to clams) and in this case it's a relatively cheap way to quickly get casters that can bLast your foes with Fires From Afar (and other nice fire spells). To me, the H4 is just icing on the cake.

BTW, as R'leyh, I of course have much better means at hand to deal with devils than trying to face them with kitted-out archangels, which while not a bad tool, isn't the best tool available for such a task. I think it's safe to say that we all consider the AA a "suboptimal" choice for that purpose. OTOH, part of the fun of Dominions is in playing around and seeing how some battles unfold. What's the fun in predictable outcomes of lopsided combats (when you know that your uber-SC is going to slaughter its opponent? Isn't it more exciting to watch an archangel girded for battle with the minions of Hell struggle to overcome powerful foes? Any such victories achieved will taste sweet indeed.

They may not be particularly cost-effective, but as I mentioned earlier, archangels do have their uses, especially under the right circumstances and nations.



What better means do you have as Ryleh to deal with devils ?
A soul slay / enslave mind etc. starspawn brigade is good too and i think you have something like this in mind .
And you need a staff of storms .
I guess vanheim is the "best" anti-devil nation cause they have good airmagic , can use a few storm demons on their own + a staff of storms is easy to get for them too .

But arch angels have definitive their uses and they are not that overpriced i think too . Especially for ermor they are probably attractive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Huzurdaddi]

A soul slay / enslave mind etc. starspawn brigade is good too and i think you have something like this in mind .




Actually that is a suboptimal way to deal with devils. Devils have a very good MR. The only way to win that battle is with far more forces than he has.

The only really cost effective way of beating devils is to use an SC that can tank them. This is not super easy to acheive, but is possible. You will need an actual SC, mini-SC's need not apply.

Mechanical men+wrathful skies also works against devils.



Telestic animations become unholy with broken empire ermor. 5 astral gems for a level 3 unholy reanimator who can still preach isn't bad, I think.




That's really good!

[Boron]

Huzurdaddi said:
Actually that is a suboptimal way to deal with devils. Devils have a very good MR. The only way to win that battle is with far more forces than he has.

The only really cost effective way of beating devils is to use an SC that can tank them. This is not super easy to acheive, but is possible. You will need an actual SC, mini-SC's need not apply.

Mechanical men+wrathful skies also works against devils.





Yeah devils are special . They struggle with mechanical men / living statues and storm demons for the title most useful troop for offense i think . In defense you can add vampires .

I think the savest way to kill them is by a SC as you suggested . By mages is difficult because if you mix them with storm demons then the mages have a really hard time to chose the right spell to kill both .
Only banefire / gifts from heaven may work but these spells are so hard to get casters for that you can't count on them . Only ctis desert tombs has natural Banefirecasters but they pay 150 dominiondesignpoints for this .

[Huzurdaddi]

So getting back to Pythium ....

I want to hear from people that successfully used Communion. It is supposed to be the bread and butter of Pythium but when I use it the communicants almost always die.

What ratios do people use? I have even gone so far as to give the communicants an Earth Blessing ( for Rejuv ) and this does not help as the Thurges still murder them ( generally by casting ghost wolves at the end of battle that will never reach the front ).

I'll run some tests with ratios and see what I get. I know that there is no ratio once you get a silly number of thurges into the combat ( around 12 or so will kill any number of communicants if the battle goes on for any length of time ).

I'll see how it works for more sane numbers of thurges ( like 4 or so ). I have a feeling that 8 will be insufficient. Yeah just ran some tests. Sometimes they will not kill the communicants, but if the battle goes over like 10 rounds those communciants are toast. Clearly you can add more communicants and the amount of time that you can survive will increase ( if you keep the number of thurges constant ).

Probably 12 comunicants will survive 4 thurges.

Another problem I am realizing now is that having to cast communion master consumes one of the precious 5 spells that you can cast. After those 5 spells random things are going to happen. Which also limits it's power.

It is slowly comming back to me why I really use the etherial principes too much. They are brain dead easy to use, very effective, and cheap and not prone to disaster.

Communion OTOH is expensive, very difficult to use, costly, and prone to huge disasters if something outside of your planning occurs. However it can be very useful for boosting the power of your mages for a particular spell. I suppose it is not a bread and butter tactic but rather a tactic to be pulled out only for very special occasions.

Interesting.

Ok given that communion is not for everyday use and that pythium has a lack of summons what is one to do? Perhaps Pythium should fall back on the age old false horror spam? Not a bad tactic I suppose.

[Thufir]

And, while we're on the subject of communion, is it common to run more than one communion master at a time? If so, is it necessary that one of the communion masters are continuously casting relief?

[archaeolept]

relief is the key; hence the vital importance of an adjutant nature mage like a lizard shaman. that, and expecting any serious battle to kill of your (cheap) communicants. W/ relief I'm generally happy w/ 2 to 1 ratio, or even smaller for battles that look to be short. Castle assaults, otoh, will usually kill off all your communicants.

[Thufir]

archaeolept said:
relief is the key; hence the vital importance of an adjutant nature mage like a lizard shaman. that, and expecting any serious battle to kill of your (cheap) communicants. W/ relief I'm generally happy w/ 2 to 1 ratio, or even smaller for battles that look to be short. Castle assaults, otoh, will usually kill off all your communicants.



So, are you saying that with castle assaults, even if you have relief, you still expect to kill all your communicants?

Let's set up a specific example:
3 theurgs
1 shaman
8 communicants

In this case, if it is expected that all communicants die, I would've guessed that adding another shaman or two wouldn't be that hard, and would be well worth saving 8 communicants. Or is it truely that problematic that simply adding relief casters doesn't suffice?

[Huzurdaddi]

relief is the key




Releif buys you exactly 5 turns. This can be huge with communion since your mages can deal great damage in those turns. However it is not a panacea. Further in large battles with many Thurges one releif caster is no where near sufficient. Even massive numbers of communicants can accumulate huge amounts of fatigue per turn when there are 12+ thurges casting.

And in a shocker to me it is actually more effective to go for evocation than for Thaumaturgy when it comes to Thurges. I was trapped in the Pythium is an astral nation hence go for Thaumaturgy for battle magic. With a good number of communicants ( and you will need a good number ) some of the early Evocation spells ( and the computer will even cast them! ) do a great job.

[Huzurdaddi]

Or is it truely that problematic that simply adding relief casters doesn't suffice?




No number of releif casters will buy you more than 5 turns extra. On the 6th turn they will stop casting releif. I have never seen them cast it after that point. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has seen it but I never have. So don't count on it. You *need* to get the battle over with ASAP with communion. Script the most punch spells even if they take a lot of fatigue ( thunderstike is one that comes to mind ) since time is your enemy not the guys with pointy sticks on the other side of the field.

[archaeolept]

adding relief casters generally does nothing, other than giving you a fallback in case one is killed. the problem is that after the 5 scripted spells, your relief caster will often decide to cast whatever useles bit of drivel wanders into his head http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

so long battles, especially any serious castle assaults, will usually end up w/ all your communicants dead. having a communion master casting earthpower or some such will certainly help, though earth mages are fairly rare for the pyth.

[Thufir]

Master Shake said:
...
The key to Pythium, however, it to go for Acashic Record (AR) early. Go for those Waste, Mtn and Forest provinces, and cast AR on them (Wastelands first) early.



Why go for wasteland first? Does anyone have exact stats on improved probability of sites? What I've seen to date simply says that Mtn, forest and waste are better than plains, with no specificity beyond that.


Apologies for quoting myself, but nobody's answered this one, so I'll give it another try:


3) On Serpent Cataphracts, they seem like really good troops, but it's always a tough choice when you know you can get so many more Principe. So far I have put together a few times Groups of 5-7 Cataphracts, and they have been effective, but I wonder if I'm underutilizing them. Also, perhaps because my Groups were too small they didn't survive as long as I might have hoped (although in at least one case they took out a goodly number of devils before routing).

Anyone have any pointers on the minimal size of a Cataphract squad? Has anyone out there found it useful to mix other units in with the Cataphracts? Has anyone out there found the Serpent Lord worth paying for?



So, any help this time around?


On the subject of Arch Angels, I agree with Arryn in that they're useful in specific situations. With AA's, I think you have to remember (as Arryn pointed out), that many nations (esp. any clamhoarding nation, including Pythium), is going to be Astral rich, and as such will be likely converting a good percentage of their astral gems anyhow. The other thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Angelic Host can be targeted on any province, so from a balance perspective, it's cost should be compared to Co Wind or Co Wild. For a clamhoarder the value of their astral gems asymptotically (for you mathematicians out there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) approaches half that of wind or air, so it might be regarded as costing 25 gems compared to 5 for CoWind or 15 for CoWild. Which I think is reasonable when you look at what you get.

The one big lack w/r to Angelic Host is that the troops are non-replenishable, which is not true of most summoned leaders that come w/ matching troops. I think it would be cool, and not unbalanced to add a spell out there that summoned the Angel of the Host, at some low cost.

On the subject of Harbingers, I did a little bit of testing with their horns, under 2.12, and they seem to work pretty well, to me. I always have a hard time telling who did exactly what when I'm looking at combat replays, but it sure looked like the Harbingers were taking out devils with their horns, to me. It was equally clear that they weren't devestating to the devils, but it if you set them to "Fire Closest" (perhaps after a buff or two), they can play a useful support role when fighting devils. Again, as to whether they're worth the 25 astral, that's context dependent.

On the question of defeating devils, so far, I like Archolaept's plan w/ the 6+ theurgs and N communicants, the best. That plan gives me some good ideas on how to prioritize spending gold, but gives me no insight on how to spend my astral gems. For all you critics of AAs and Harbingers out there - do you have any better ideas on how to spend your astral gems for the purpose of defeating devils?

It is true that AAs or Harbingers are expensive, relative to other summons, so if there were a more cost effective way to use those gems, I'm all ears. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I suppose I could always simply convert to death/earth/water and forge more equipment for my banelords, but it seems like there must be something better than that that could be done.

[archaeolept]

well, astrals go towards putting spell foci on your theurgs, but another good use for them is in summoning Golems, who can be turned into pretty nice little teleporting SC's. Sure, w/ a skull cap they only have S3 and so are possible targets for mind duels, but most people don't create a lot of mind duel squads as part of their anti-pythium campaign...

;p

[Kel]

Mages *will* cast relief after turn 5. I don't know what conditions encourage it but I have seen relief casters cast it repeatedly through long battles, much to my relief, so to speak.

True, you can't count on it...but then that applies to most mage scripting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I don't know if you are already doing it but I tend to make at least some of my communion masters into communion slaves also. This does take up one of their 5 guaranteed spell slots so it's more useful in long battles (then again, I don't bother with communions early on or in small battles unless I *really* need a specific spell).

It may also be what you are casting and who your masters are since, as you knwo, the more paths you have, the cheaper each spell is.

- Kel

[Huzurdaddi]

For all you critics of AAs and Harbingers out there - do you have any better ideas on how to spend your astral gems for the purpose of defeating devils?




If you are talking late game then the answer all troop: doom horrors. For the cost of 3 angelic Hosts you get a commander who has a strat move of 10 and who can take out tons of devils.

Before you get to that tech level there is not much you can do other than make an SC via alchemy.



I like Archolaept's plan w/ the 6+ theurgs and N communicants, the best.




Well it's a nice plan. But it does not work out too well. Devils in quanity are very hard for Pythium to handle. Heck they are hard for most armies ( not SC's ) to handle.

[archaeolept]

Mages *will* cast relief after turn 5. I don't know what conditions encourage it but I have seen relief casters cast it repeatedly through long battles

w/ pythium? my experience is that they usually don't, though their may be ways to "entice" them to do so.

Well it's a nice plan. But it does not work out too well. Devils in quanity are very hard for Pythium to handle. Heck they are hard for most armies ( not SC's ) to handle.

Lol. well, surely it does depend on the relative numbers of theurgs and devils. as a cost effective method, given that pythium has no trouble forging staff of storms, it certainly can work. you can also script them for falling frost or orb lighting, or hell, wrathful skies and false horrors http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, or whatever else suits your fancy. the only advantage of banishing demons is the lack of any fatigue cost, which is negated if you have a lizard anyways

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

ooh, and against devils, don't forget to throw in a water gem for "rain"

[Arryn]

Thufir said:
The one big lack w/r to Angelic Host is that the troops are non-replenishable, which is not true of most summoned leaders that come w/ matching troops. I think it would be cool, and not unbalanced to add a spell out there that summoned the Angel of the Host, at some low cost.

Trolls can be summoned independently of the kings, so angels ought to be as well. OTOH, the devs may not consider an archangel as a "king/queen" type unit.

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
Only banefire / gifts from heaven may work but these spells are so hard to get casters for that you can't count on them.



Thunder strike, astral fires, falling frost, frozen heart, raise skeletons + drain life or drain life + raise skeletons depending on what order you want them in, bladewind etc. Those are all effective spells against Devils.

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
I'll see how it works for more sane numbers of thurges ( like 4 or so ). I have a feeling that 8 will be insufficient.



You'll probably want about 4-5 communicants per theurg when you have 4 or so theurgs.


After those 5 spells random things are going to happen. Which also limits it's power.



These spells will usually be things like thunderstrike, paralyze, soul slay, and such, plus body ethereal, so they aren't that useless.

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
No number of releif casters will buy you more than 5 turns extra. On the 6th turn they will stop casting releif. I have never seen them cast it after that point.



Relief gets cast when the fatigue of your entire army starts to get to be large. Cast heat from hell, rigor mortis, or rain if you want your army to generate more fatigue so that relief gets cast more often. You can also put clockwork horrors on the field, since their fatigue generation will trigger the casting of relief.

[Huzurdaddi]

Thunder strike, astral fires, falling frost, frozen heart, raise skeletons + drain life or drain life + raise skeletons depending on what order you want them in, bladewind etc. Those are all effective spells against Devils.




Thunder stike works quite well on devils. Astral fires not so well, MR negates and it's hard for pythium to get access to it, falling frost is ok but does not really kill devils all that well ( it really should don't know what goes wrong ), Blade wind works decently but against it is hard for Pythium to gain access to it, raise dead/drainlife works well against anything, but is hard for pythium to gain access to it.

Of those suggestions the best two for Pythium are Thunderstrike and falling frost. And thunderstrike has a cool sound effect.

[Huzurdaddi]

You'll probably want about 4-5 communicants per theurg when you have 4 or so theurgs




3 seems to work at 4 theurgs. They die exceedingly rarely. I have not tested for 5 theurgs.



These spells will usually be things like thunderstrike, paralyze, soul slay, and such, plus body ethereal, so they aren't that useless.




Actually I see a tremendous amount of ghost wolves. Mostly when the opposing army is retreating. I do however also see soul slay and enslave mind which is nice.



Relief gets cast when the fatigue of your entire army starts to get to be large.




Really? Are you sure about this? If so then clockwork horrors could be quite useful.

[Tuna]

A little thing I've found out about mages casting relief: If you have mass protection up, they are a LOT more likely to cast relief once the script runs out, as you dont have protection to cast.

[Thufir]

Tuna said:
A little thing I've found out about mages casting relief: If you have mass protection up, they are a LOT more likely to cast relief once the script runs out, as you dont have protection to cast.



sounds like a good tip - I'll try it!

[Thufir]

Graeme Dice said:
Thunder strike, astral fires, falling frost, frozen heart, raise skeletons + drain life or drain life + raise skeletons depending on what order you want them in, bladewind etc. Those are all effective spells against Devils.



While we're on the subject of death spells, if you're willing to spend gems how about shadow bLast and/or summon lammashtas? Do either of those work well against devils?

[Huzurdaddi]

While we're on the subject of death spells, if you're willing to spend gems how about shadow bLast and/or summon lammashtas?




I'm not a big fan of anything that needs an MR check against devils. As for Lammashtas I find that they hurt me more than they do the enemy!

So getting back to Pythium what spells do people like to use with their pumped up casters? Here are some that I have used in normal combats with success:

Soul Slay -- effective
Enslave mind -- even more effective
Thunder Strike -- shockingly effective!
Falling Frost -- not quite as excellent as thunder strike
Stellar Cascades -- effective, but I feel lame scripting a spell when my caster is S5.
Orb Lighting -- very powerful but very short ranged. Have not figured out how to use it effectivly. If anyone knows please tell me.

Are there any others that cost no gems that can be cast by a A4W4S5 or A5W5S6? Anything I am overlooking?

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
Are there any others that cost no gems that can be cast by a A4W4S5 or A5W5S6? Anything I am overlooking?



There's always false horrors.

[archaeolept]

false horrors and those who overuse them suck

someone really abusing false horrors should quickly be eliminated by any and all neighbours, irrespective of any previous diplomatic agreements, IMO.

[Graeme Dice]

archaeolept said:
false horrors and those who overuse them suck




I think that raising their required path to air 3 would help a great deal.

[archaeolept]

yeah 3 is a good choice

my suggestion was A2 and 20 fat which is pretty similar

zen's suggesion was A2 and 25 fat

I think truper wanted them to be A6 and 100 fatigue or something...

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

though really the worst offender by far is Caelum, so I get around that just by banning their feathery little asses

;p

[Truper]

Heh - a guy needs a chance to rave once in a while http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I think I may have mentioned 100 fatigue, but the A6 is an exaggeration http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The problem as it stands now is that quickened Seraphs can cast 2 False Horrors per round until they pass out - and they can do it for somewhere around 12 rounds (exact calculations are hard, since I don't have a formula for the fatigue reduction of magic dominions, which are common - and also because after the scripts run out, the Seraph will mix in the occasional Phantasmal Warrior or a spell like Charge Body). Then when they *do* finally exhaust themselves, they wake after a one or two rounds, and spam another 2 horrors. It wouldn't be that great a problem, if one had any way to get things to attack mages, but in my experience, no matter what you have on attack rear, those things will prefer to attack anything *but* mages, no matter how relatively harmless the things they're attacking.

There are things which will defeat a horror-spam, but those things are much more expensive than a Seraph and his 5 archers scattered about the field, in one way or another.

Adding insult to injury is the way a Caelum Horrifying Horrors strategy hangs together. To get horrors, you need to research alteration. Alteration is the primary path requirement for the all-too-common Quickness/Mistform/Mirror-Image/Invulnerability SC pretender - which Caelum can afford better than most nations.

My considered suggestion, as opposed to my bitter, raving, pulling-my-hair-out I've-been-spammed-again sarcastic suggestion, is that the path should be left at A1, so that False Horrors would still be available to say Vanherses or mages with a random in air, but that the fatigue should be raised to 30.

[Huzurdaddi]

The problem as it stands now is that quickened Seraphs can cast 2 False Horrors per round until they pass out




You see I can never set that up. My seraphs cast it 4 times ( as scripted ) but then do random stuff. It's still *very* powerful no doubt. But if I could make then do it x12 it would be FAR more powerful.

That's also why I'm not a huge fan of the fatigue cost increase since you could still do it x4. I kind of the A3 requirement. Of course Caelum could still do it then and it would only be 75% more expensive. Perhaps A3 and more fatigue.

[Kung_Fu]

Truper said:My considered suggestion, as opposed to my bitter, raving, pulling-my-hair-out I've-been-spammed-again sarcastic suggestion, is that the path should be left at A1, so that False Horrors would still be available to say Vanherses or mages with a random in air, but that the fatigue should be raised to 30.



This would not stop your bitter, raving, pulling-my-hair-out I've-been-spammed-again feelings.

For your amusement:

False Horror
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Lvl of Air Base Fat w/Storm Power Casts to 100 (4Enc)
Base Spell 10 5 20

Truper (1Air) 30 15 5.26
Archae (1Air) -- 20 4.16
Zen (1Air) -- 30 2.94

Truper (2Air) 15 10 10
Archae (2Air) 20 10 10
Zen (2Air) 25 12.5 8

Truper (3Air) 10 7.5 8.69
Archae (3Air) 10 7.5 8.69
Zen (3Air) 12.5 8.3 8.1</pre><hr />

Compare with:
Raise Skeletons
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Death Base Fatigue Casts to 100 (4 Enc)
2 40 2.27
3 20 4.16
4 10 7.14</pre><hr />

Of course the # of effects is different, 5 -&gt; 1. Yet it seems odd, that Air should have the ability to battlefield summon better than Death. While False Horrors have their weaknesses, so do Undead. The only other alternative is Elementals which are by and large gem unefficient because of poor AI.

To those who cry "Your Kung-Fu is weak! Death also has a 1 Death summoning spell" I would remind you it's summon effect is 1, and it's fatigue is 30.

Taking into account the differences in statistics of False Horrors, School, and ultimately Level of Spell (Alteration 6) it is not grossly overpowered, but I do not see your suggestion giving you any relief. In your example, even a level 1 (with storm power, and if you are being spammed then you are inextricably having a Staff of Storms used against you) It takes 4 turns of unconsiousness before being able to churn out another.

Take into account a Magic 3 Enviroment (a 30% Reduction in Fatigue Cost), you suddenly are in very much the same predicament, with all those charming level 1 Air casters (Harab Seraphs?) as you were before. Also Air already has a very decent 1Air spell in Orb Lightning, why do they need another? I have yet to see any other school of magic have such versatility with such cheap mages, allowing even sages and randoms to produce terrifying results.

If I had a choice between the 3 suggestions, I would choose either A.) Archae (if I wanted no real change other than requiring a Storm in place to cast the spell, and a slight fatigue bump. or B.) Zen's to drastically tone down the speed at which lower end Air Users can deliver False Horrors, but allow it to be a factor for high level air Users or perhaps communion.

[Truper]

Your Kung-Fu is weak! The numbers above aren't taking casting either quickness or summon storm power into account, and a horror-spammer would prefer *not* to have a storm in place, since horrors fly. Then somebody has to either cast the storm, or be holding a Staff of Storms, either of which is going to increase the cost of the strategy significantly, and require more research before it can be implemented.

And the true terror of the Caelum Horror-spam is not that it can be used to win large battles, but that single Seraphs, or sometimes pairs, can fan out over an entire empire in a matter of just a few turns, taking every province not defended by a major army. They require no gems or items to do it, and Seraphs are notoriously cheap. All they require is a handful of flying troops - just enough to distract the defenders until the spam gets started.

[Kel]

That seems more like a problem with seraphs, though. Seraphs are pretty good at making normal troops rout. Horrors might be the best way but not the only way.

Not that I am taking a side against seraphs, I am just pointing out that seraphs would still be able to fan out and raid many provinces at once, even without horrors.

- Kel

[Stormbinder]

Truper said:
Heh - a guy needs a chance to rave once in a while http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I think I may have mentioned 100 fatigue, but the A6 is an exaggeration http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The problem as it stands now is that quickened Seraphs can cast 2 False Horrors per round until they pass out - and they can do it for somewhere around 12 rounds (exact calculations are hard, since I don't have a formula for the fatigue reduction of magic dominions, which are common - and also because after the scripts run out, the Seraph will mix in the occasional Phantasmal Warrior or a spell like Charge Body). Then when they *do* finally exhaust themselves, they wake after a one or two rounds, and spam another 2 horrors. It wouldn't be that great a problem, if one had any way to get things to attack mages, but in my experience, no matter what you have on attack rear, those things will prefer to attack anything *but* mages, no matter how relatively harmless the things they're attacking.

There are things which will defeat a horror-spam, but those things are much more expensive than a Seraph and his 5 archers scattered about the field, in one way or another.

Adding insult to injury is the way a Caelum Horrifying Horrors strategy hangs together. To get horrors, you need to research alteration. Alteration is the primary path requirement for the all-too-common Quickness/Mistform/Mirror-Image/Invulnerability SC pretender - which Caelum can afford better than most nations.

My considered suggestion, as opposed to my bitter, raving, pulling-my-hair-out I've-been-spammed-again sarcastic suggestion, is that the path should be left at A1, so that False Horrors would still be available to say Vanherses or mages with a random in air, but that the fatigue should be raised to 30.



Truper is absolutely right.

I did some experiments with False Horrors and posted results in the thread about a month ago. Single quickned serpah with no troops can reliably rout 20 Jotuns PD, not to mention other weaker PD.


Same goes for most average morale soldiers. What worse, Sermon of Courage doesn't seem to help. Or it helps so little it's virtually impossible to notice. In another experiment I've added level 3 prist chain casting Sermon of courage. The large PD troops routed exactly the same due to fear aura of FHs from the single seraph.


Comaparing Summon Lesser Horror with other battle summons is not really valid without taking into account the Fear Aura. Unlike other summons, false horrors hardly kill or even wound anyone. Yet they rout 10x their number of regular morale soldiers with ease. Combining with cheap caleum mages and ability to fly and strike anywhere, it is a bit too much IMHO.

(an yes, there are countertactics of course, but the ammount of efforts and resourses needed to balance single seraph with easely reseached spell is very disproportional)


So I agree with Truper and others and I think something need to be done about it. Either Sermon of Courage need to be able to cope better with Fear Auras, or Fear aura of LH need to be reduced, or price of the spell increase. I would not want to see it nerfed into obvliion by any means, it is cool spell, but as it is now it is a bit too uch, especially for Caelum, who are already great riders and one of the strongest nation.


Just my two cents.

[Cainehill]

Stormbinder said:
So I agree with Truper and others and I think something need to be done about it. Either Sermon of Courage need to be able to cope better with Fear Auras, or Fear aura of LH need to be reduced, or price of the spell increase. I would not want to see it nerfed into obvliion by any means, it is cool spell, but as it is now it is a bit too uch, especially for Caelum, who are already great riders and one of the strongest nation.




The main problem with False Horrors is that there is apparently a bug (documented by Arryn I believe), because the priests _never_ cast Sermon of Courage to counteract the fear.

[The_Tauren13]

Cainehill said:
The main problem with False Horrors is that there is apparently a bug (documented by Arryn I believe), because the priests _never_ cast Sermon of Courage to counteract the fear.



Hmm... I suppose fixing that would balance the spell considerably. Much better idea than randomly nerfing it, IMO.

[Arryn]

Cainehill said:
The main problem with False Horrors is that there is apparently a bug (documented by Arryn I believe), because the priests _never_ cast Sermon of Courage to counteract the fear.

The logic which IW appears to have encoded is to cast Sermon/Fanaticism if units take damage (1+ points), not if units take morale losses.

Another test that someone should make is to equip Horror Helms on non-combatants sent into the enemy ranks and see if effects similar to FHs occur (with enemy priests failing to cast Sermon/Fanaticism).

There's nothing "wrong" (unbalanced) with the FH spell. The problem is in the anti-morale loss spells. If I'm correct in my observations.

[Truper]

Arryn said:

There's nothing "wrong" (unbalanced) with the FH spell. The problem is in the anti-morale loss spells. If I'm correct in my observations.



I have to disagree. Compare FH to any other battlefield summon. FH has a lower path cost than anything but Animate Skeleton, Animate Dead or Will o' the Wisp. The undead summoning spells have 3 and 2 times the fatigue repectively, and I doubt we'll argue much about the relative effectiveness of a Skeleton as compared to a False Horror. Which may be fair enough, since we're comparing Enchantment 1 to Alteration 6.

Let's compare to Will o' the Wisp. Conjuration 5 vs Alteration 6. WotW gets you 2 Wisps, which share many properties with False Horrors, but costs 100 fatigue as opposed to 10 and a gem .

Now compare to Summon Lesser Air Elemental. This to me is a most interesting comparison, since our hypothetical Seraph would have his choice. 2A, 100 fatigue and a gem. Supposing our Seraph is carrying a gem. Should he spend it to summon a single Lesser Air Elemental and pass out in the process, or should he cast Quickness and spend the next 12 rounds or so summoning 2 Horrors per turn?

The fear aura on the Horrors is just complicating the argument, IMO. Remove it entirely, and they'll still rout you nearly as fast as before, through the "death of a thousand cuts" effect - the Horrors are skilled, if not strong.

Lastly, it doesn't really matter that False Horrors only have 1 Hit Point and under the right circumstances can be easily killed, since my entire argument is that it doesn't matter how many you kill since they will just keep coming throughout an entire battle.

[Boron]

Yeah we see that now in our special teamgame too .

My question now is what countermeasures do you have against false horror with the same research ? With twice as much research ?
Caelum / Pythium , the 2 nations which can run such a strat very effective are probably the 2 fastest researchers too . Pythium is not as effective here as Caelume because it lacks the flying ability and has 2S on their theurgs so Ryleh / Arco could counter that with mind duel quite a bit .

So please tell me how you can counter the false horrors in early-midgame effective with any other nation ?

Truper is very right with saying the false horror is strong . 16 att/def is really good and combined with etheralness this way he is not easy to kill by most normal troops . Then he is not targeted any longer by your mages or they kill your own troops .

But the main point is with a staff of storms you could probably take away a lot of fear from the false horrors because they would be slow then . BUT we are mainly talking about the caelum raiding strat with 1-3 seraphs + a few decoy archers . You can't have everywhere a commander with a staff of storms or a SC .

So you are reduced to 3-4 provinces and can't do much against by the time caelum can do this . Meanwhile they just need e.g. to tech to the Airqueens and finish you with them .

So give me examples with which you can defend against this earlygame . I myself don't find too many and most are extremely expensive .

[Cohen]

Well Caelum with 100 gold mages and A2W1 are damn good, and Arch Seraphs aren't capitol only.
How can you compete.
Pithium too has cheap Theurg for what they obtain (150 gold for S2 A W H3, sacred).

False Horror IMO should have more fatigue and/or be A2. (like 20 or 30 fatigue). And no fear aura.
Repel is almost useless cause of etherealness, the auras like the abysyan one doesn't burn them so quickly and your troops rout before.

They still represent a good stopping wall if you count on a wrathful skies (I'm playing with that strat in a game).

And in another game with Caelum that I choosed to play without False Horrors, Caelum did well too (Truper was in as Abysya) and all the other 3 player ganged up against Caelum in order to defeat him.

[Boron]

I think there is almost no counter for a timespan of 5-20 turns against caelum using 1-3 seraphs in a planned attack .
By the time caelum gets false horror you have your Sc pretender if you have one and perhaps 1-2 weak Scs .
Mages at that stage can't defeat them as well i think .

So you can't defend more than 2-3 provinces against that once caelum has false horrors .

It maybe that i still lack a bit of experience so if you see any counter which is not too costy then plz say .

[Mardagg]

Boron said:

It maybe that i still lack a bit of experience so if you see any counter which is not too costy then plz say .



Any mixture of flying troops,unbreakable troops and cheap Archers works well.You dont need many troops.
Some time ago I was up against Caelum ,using the False Horror strat,quite early in the game.
I played Abysia.
I had 2 Fiends of Darkness,an Apprentice and some indie archers(set on fire archers) in every important province.
he wasnt able to raid most of my lands because of this ,but I was able to raid his, using Horde from Hell. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Thats why I won the war.

[Cohen]

Hordes from Hell requires 30 Blood Slaves.
Some could trapeze costs 6-9 air gems.

And Imps are worst than False Horrors.

[Huzurdaddi]

Compared to other summons False Horrors is very powerful for it's cost.

The game would actually be richer without it. I don't say that about a lot of spells/items.

[Cohen]

There're already many issues on False Horror.
What we had to say we've already told.
Now it's up to IW if to make some change or not, but I hope the massive games that see Caelum excluded as choice is a clear signal of what this nation is strong, and how false horror, especially with quickness, is strong.

At least Pythium Theurgs can't trapeze by default, and only the Arch theurg can that are capitol only and costs a lot.

[Arryn]

Cohen said:
There're already many issues on False Horror.
What we had to say we've already told.

Alas, the fact that it's been said doesn't appear to deter you and your friends from incessantly saying it again and again every chance you get (and if you don't get a chance, you make up a new one). It's gotten very old and tiresome. Give it a rest. Please.

[Cohen]

Simply because I fight for my causes.

[Arryn]

There's a not-fine line between fighting and making a nuisance of yourself.

[Lex]

its funny, i'm playing Caelum in two games right now, and at every point I'm thinking of ways to counter what I'm doing in the games. Caelum+FalseHorror is in fact balanced with the rest of the game (which is why its still around). But its been balanced in a rock/paper/scissors way, which is why everyone's arguments are true. Caelum is overpowered against ALOT of things, but its defeated by enough things to make it a healthy part of Dom2.

Without things like the FH spam, you wouldn't have any reason to change your play style and respond to a unique threat. The one strategy-fits-all isn't the healthiest way to play long term, and that might explain the frustration of so many players (and its also the downfall of the FH spam, since it too tries to meet every battle the same way)

And I'm surprised alot of players will gladly spend tons of research and gems to equip and raise magic paths in a SC to further an offensive strategy. But some players aren't interested in putting the same game effort into their defense against a clear and well known threat.

[Arryn]

Lex is essentially repeating what Gandalf said a while back. Unfortunately, no one seems to have been listening to Gandalf. Which is a shame, since Gandalf knows what he's talking about. Certainly more so than those whose minds are closed to viewpoints other than that of singleminded simplicity and pet peevishness.

[Huzurdaddi]

its funny, i'm playing Caelum in two games right now, and at every point I'm thinking of ways to counter what I'm doing in the games. Caelum+FalseHorror is in fact balanced with the rest of the game (which is why its still around). But its been balanced in a rock/paper/scissors way, which is why everyone's arguments are true. Caelum is overpowered against ALOT of things, but its defeated by enough things to make it a healthy part of Dom2.




Giggle. Whatever. Perhaps next game I'll get Caelum. I'm sure I will argue ( disingenuously ) that it is balanced at that time as well.

[Cainehill]

What I want to know is what Hen and compadres propose to give Caelum as compensation if False Horror is nerfed (as opposed to the bug where priests don't cast sermon of courage with them).

After all - I see Caelum in at least half the games I play. It isn't the winner most of the time, and yet they want to nerf one of the few things Caelum does have going for it.

After all - Caelum possibly has the worst PD in the game, because it flies right up, fights one turn, and flies away. Even Mictlan or Man's PD at least slows down invaders long enough for mages to cast spells.

Its troops are generally either incredibly flimsy, or extremely resource intensive, slow, and non-flying. National magic isn't particularly flexible, albeit it certainly isn't bad. Oh, and all its troops (except Wingless) eat a boatload of supplies, meaning that any army of decent size is often starving.

So - take away False Horror, thus hurting Caelum, which is already _easily_ countered by certain nations / themes. What does Caelum get to make up for it?

Then again, one of the main whiners about False Horror (and Caelum) also keeps insisting that Abysia is underpowered. *snigger*

[incognito]

At this time, I'd like to firmly declare myself in the camp of singleminded simplicity and pet peevishness. We're a focused bunch with very particular dislikes.

Thank you. That is all.

[Huzurdaddi]

What I want to know is what Hen and compadres propose to give Caelum as compensation if False Horror is nerfed (as opposed to the bug where priests don't cast sermon of courage with them).




How about we give them national armies that can skip provinces and strike rear areas? No that would be insane. Just imagine the carnage that could cause!

No, no wait I got it. How about we make their best mage recruitable not only in the capital but anywhere they have a castle? No that would be crazy.

No, no, wait. How about making their top mage have one 3 level path one 2 level path a random and yet cost only 180? No, that's crazy. No no, wait let's make it fly as well!

Caelum is excellent even if they did not have false horrors. Just not quite so "dear god Caelum again" excellent.

[Kel]

I am *not* arguing for or against false horror, or Caelum or anything along those lines...but Caelum has more going for it than False horror.

They still have good raiders, mobility and good mages. Probably other things, too, that I am not experienced enough to be aware of...but Caelums success does not hinge solely on False Horror, imo.

- Kel

[Cainehill]

Huzurdaddi said:


What I want to know is what Hen and compadres propose to give Caelum as compensation if False Horror is nerfed (as opposed to the bug where priests don't cast sermon of courage with them).




How about we give them national armies that can skip provinces and strike rear areas? No that would be insane. Just imagine the carnage that could cause!

No, no wait I got it. How about we make their best mage recruitable not only in the capital but anywhere they have a castle? No that would be crazy.

No, no, wait. How about making their top mage have one 3 level path one 2 level path a random and yet cost only 180? No, that's crazy. No no, wait let's make it fly as well!

Caelum is excellent even if they did not have false horrors. Just not quite so "dear god Caelum again" excellent.



*yawn* If they were so excellent, why don't they win more games? They have one strength really: mages. The armies being able to skip provinces and attack rear areas wouldn't do a thing for them without the mages, because the flying troops are either very weak, or very very expensive resource-wise, and they tend to _starve_ when not close to home.

In my opinion, the only reason Caelum gets Banned is because people get frustrated playing against them. Hell - I do too, sometimes. Ditto for 'mad castling': "It isn't fun to play against!" My heart bleeds for these people, really it does. Oops, never mind - that's just some wine I spilled on my shirt.

[Soapyfrog]

Cainehill said:
Oops, never mind - that's just some wine I spilled on my shirt.


Well that explains it... you are clearly drunk! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Cainehill]

Soapyfrog said:

Cainehill said:
Oops, never mind - that's just some wine I spilled on my shirt.


Well that explains it... you are clearly drunk! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif



In vino, veritas. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Arryn said:
Lex is essentially repeating what Gandalf said a while back. Unfortunately, no one seems to have been listening to Gandalf. Which is a shame, since Gandalf knows what he's talking about. Certainly more so than those whose minds are closed to viewpoints other than that of singleminded simplicity and pet peevishness.


Well Stormbinder / Truper and a lot of other very experienced players say too that false horrors are at least a bit overpowered while you and Caine seem to be the only ones still claiming it is okay .

[Arryn]

Boron said:

Arryn said:
Lex is essentially repeating what Gandalf said a while back. Unfortunately, no one seems to have been listening to Gandalf. Which is a shame, since Gandalf knows what he's talking about. Certainly more so than those whose minds are closed to viewpoints other than that of singleminded simplicity and pet peevishness.


Well Stormbinder / Truper and a lot of other very experienced players say too that false horrors are at least a bit overpowered while you and Caine seem to be the only ones still claiming it is okay .

First, who's "a lot"? Second, who's definition of "very experienced", for I assure you that your definition and mine are likely to be dramatically different. Finally, you completely ignored the text I wrote which you (for some unknown reason) bothered to quote. Why quote text if what you're going to write utterly disregards that to which you are ostensibly referring to? To make it abundantly clear what I'm speaking about, lest it elude you, how can you claim that only I and Cainehill hold a certain viewpoint when the text you quoted very clearly mentions that there are others (in this example, Gandalf)?

Oh, and one more thing: just because some people are VERY vocal in their whining about Caelum, False Horror, Abysia, or whatever other aspect(s) of the game they have trouble with due to their preconceptions and/or inflexible playstyle doesn't make them a majority. Or even significant. It just makes them a pain in the ***. If you choose to accord such folks more importance than they merit, that's your prerogative, but don't expect others to agree with you ... no matter how vocal you are.

[Boron]

I just wanted to give you counterexamples .
And Stormbinder is atm probably the most experienced dominionsplayer together with Zen .

Truper made some very good points too .


Your own "anti-moraleloss fix" sounds promising too .

The combination of fear aura , 16att/def and etheral makes a false horror very tough .
Normal troops he roots and cheap high morale troops like skeletons , manikins etc. have all 0 prot + low mr so the false horror defeats them as well .
Even demons like FoD and Devils have not very high protection and are not easy to get in big enough numbers quick . Behemoths won't hit false horrors a lot because of their etheralness too .

Tell me anything how a nation like Marignon/Ulm etc. can defend against a caelum attacking with false horrors once they researched it .
If you can give me enough examples for most nations what to do against false horror raids i am convinced that false horror is ok .

[Mark the Merciful]

Boron, the reason why you don't see many people arguing with you is an age-old one. People who are happy with the status quo don't need to make a noise to get what they want; they already have it.

Cainehill made the key point. If Caelum with False Horror is so broken, why is Caelum not dominant in most or all MP games? This is in fact a theme in these discussions. Every week we hear about a new tactic which is clearly broken and a guaranteed game-winner. Yet none of them turn up that regularly in my MP experience, and when they do they don't show any sign of guarranteeing victory.

Anyway, the whole point about multi-player diplomatic games is that they're self-balancing. If Caelum really did become that dominant, then everybody's behaviour towards it would change. So if all else fails, Ulm's defense against Caelum is to pay Abysia to stab him in the back!

Mark

[Cohen]

Caelum really wins most games, I saw Maltrease winning a lot of them with Caelum, and if some games aren't win by Caelum it's because 3 or more people gang up against a far stronger Caelum, and they bring it down ... but they're 3 Nations against 1 however.

[Tuna]

Boron said:

Tell me anything how a nation like Marignon/Ulm etc. can defend against a caelum attacking with false horrors once they researched it .




False horror, with mr of 10 (9 in magic lands), one hitpoint and no resistances, not even poison, succumbs to ANY spell. Ever looked at those research level 1/2 spells with very low damage and wondered what they are there for? Now you know.

Marignon, fire flies/fire darts. Darts are more accurate (prec 4 vs 0). Put mages in middle of troops, not behind, and you are pretty much guaranteed a hit or two. As mages usually have high mr, the risk is very small. Also, in alteration combustion guarantees a kill per casting for only 10- fatigue and level 1 spell. On the other hand, it cannot hit more than one target a round.

Ulm, Flying shards/ summon earthpower, hold hold, blade wind. Blade wind up close is very likely to kill every fh that gets in your way.

In addition to those, the cloud spells are very very useful, esp the freezing mists, that kills every fh in it, is size 4 + and does negligible damage to normal units. (some morale damage though) Ironically, the best landlubber to cast it is a Caelian HSeraph...

A bit more excotic ways are anything with mr and a fireshield is quaranteed to kill all fh:s nearby, Hydras, bog beasts, anything with att &gt;16 and a longer weapon than 0. (that might be too expensive though).



If you can give me enough examples for most nations what to do against false horror raids i am convinced that false horror is ok .



Ok. Give any nation and I tell how it defeats a false horror spam cheaply. Perhaps not cheaper than 180g or even 90 gp, but after you use it, the seraph is gone but you have not taken any losses, so in the end you win. The problem people have with fh is not a lack of working counters, but that it can take out any pd and is very very mobile. Which is exactly what caelum is supposed to be. But then again, make a few fh hunting teams consisting of a single master smith or something, or just give good scripts for the mages you use as sitesearchers, and the caelians lose many good mages as they hit the few pd units augmented with a mage.

How about next time you find a "massively overpowered thing" like you make false horrors sound like, you take a few moments alone with the SCQR, MIQR, game manual spell quide and the said critter's/spell's/whatever's description and think: "Now, if I were a false horror, what would I fear..."

One of the really great things about dom2 is the depth. No, all spells are not balanced with each other. false horror's cost is not fine-tuned to match the gain you get from it compared to, say, immolation. That's the way warcraft works. In dom2, you play a game of rock/paper/scissors, only with a few thousand different moves.

[Chazar]

Boron said:
Tell me anything how a nation like Marignon/Ulm etc. can defend against a caelum attacking with false horrors once they researched it.




I am playing Caelum quite often, but I dont use false horrors extensively. They are good for small skirmish squads in undefended territories or against very small squads having no mages for backup, but otherwise they are simply too weak.

In a current game I play against Marignon: Marignon sends in Paladins and Flagellants. Their morale is too high for starting a rout by a couple of quickened seraphs casting false horrors only, and their armor offers a fine protection against the false horrors, while etherealness of the false horror is useless against a Fire-9 blessing...

I also tried myself against Ermor: Sure, some undead die against false horrors, but they dont rout and easily overwhelm a couple of false horrors, at least the number of undead I usually receive when playing against ermor. Any orb-lightning does better than a false horror...


I feel that they are rightly priced: They are Illusions! Illusions should be cheap to produce and should be available at large. And an Illusion should be strong and terrific. If you can create any image of your liking, why would you settle for something weak?

Illusions are a powerful tool against all those who believe that they are strong (like those crying for nerfs) and are pretty weak against those who disbelief...

[Mardagg]

Cohen said:
Hordes from Hell requires 30 Blood Slaves.
Some could trapeze costs 6-9 air gems.

And Imps are worst than False Horrors.



What do you want to say with this?

You compare Blood slaves with Air gems?
You compare a battlefield only spell with a summoning spell??

It wasnt my intention at all to compare those 2 spells,I just showed an example strat how to beat False Horror spam and how I beat Caelum in the end.
Those Imps had been very handy for conquering the multiple Watch Towers of my enemy.
Once you can counter the False Horror strat,an enemy who was completely relying on it,will have extreme difficulties.

False Horror is a strong spell,but not too strong imo.

[Cohen]

An Illusion coundn't kill.

Well against a F9 blessing you go for some horrors slowing Marignon guys and you kill via orb lightning.
However Caelum is more mobile than Marignon. So he can avoid your flagellants and paladins, that couldn't be everywhere and take all undefended province.

If you choose to advance in his land with an army he'll death rout it by surrounding it taking all provinces and sending in a little bigger expedition force.

[Chazar]

I do not say that Caelum is helpless against Marignon, all I am saying is that Marignon is not helpless against Caelian horrors - and that I do not use false horrors against foes like Marignon as Caelum myself, for I find them to be too weak...

Hmm, I've never ever met an Illusion that I realized as such, but according to most fantasy-magic-rpg-folklore that I am aware of, Illusions usually kill quite well...

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
And Stormbinder is atm probably the most experienced dominionsplayer together with Zen .




*Howl of snickering laughter* Ah, you really know how to display your good judgement and intelligence. This is kinda like you using a novel as the basis for your estimation of real world military strengths.

Just because Stormbinder writes about himself in glowing, messianic terms doesn't make it so.

[Zen]

Boron said:
I just wanted to give you counterexamples .
And Stormbinder is atm probably the most experienced dominionsplayer together with Zen .

I'm going to totally disregard this statement. Otherwise my sense of disgust would overtake and there would be burning and there would be pillaging.

If you want to look for experienced people, look to Wendigo, Pocus, Nagot, Jasper, PDF (you'll find them on the french forums more) Alex, Jasper, Windreaper hell, even Zapmeister is more experienced than Stormbinder (Hi Zap) and has more cognitive thought patterns.

I wouldn't base your concept of experience on sheer number of Posts. And I definitely wouldn't trust anyones self-proclaimed opinions about themselves.

With that in mind, I'm not going to weigh in on False Horrors or Caelum. Because certain Dom2 players are like blind men, you are trying to explain what the color the sky is. You can talk all day, but in the end they can't see it and they believe what they want to believe.

[Cainehill]

Cohen said:
Caelum really wins most games, I saw Maltrease winning a lot of them with Caelum ...



And this couldn't be because Maltrease is a good player and because you and the others suck? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Zen said:
With that in mind, I'm not going to weigh in on False Horrors or Caelum. Because certain Dom2 players are like blind men, you are trying to explain what the color the sky is. You can talk all day, but in the end they can't see it and they believe what they want to believe.



Well please post your opinions . I will perhaps ask a lot of questions then about your viewpoints but in the end you probably convince me .

[Boron]

Tuna said:
Ulm, Flying shards/ summon earthpower, hold hold, blade wind. Blade wind up close is very likely to kill every fh that gets in your way.



Bladewind has 80 fatigue . So a mastersmith can cast it twice and after this he is unconscious for some rounds .
He even can damage own troops with the bladewind .

[Cainehill]

Boron said:

Zen said:
With that in mind, I'm not going to weigh in on False Horrors or Caelum. Because certain Dom2 players are like blind men, you are trying to explain what the color the sky is. You can talk all day, but in the end they can't see it and they believe what they want to believe.



Well please post your opinions . I will perhaps ask a lot of questions then about your viewpoints but in the end you probably convince me .



Really? No one's convinced you of anything yet.

---

A mind like a steel trap - rusted shut.

[Thufir]

Cainehill said:
Really? No one's convinced you of anything yet.




Not true! Boron has started using punctuation now! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Cainehill]

Boron said:

Tuna said:
Ulm, Flying shards/ summon earthpower, hold hold, blade wind. Blade wind up close is very likely to kill every fh that gets in your way.



Bladewind has 80 fatigue . So a mastersmith can cast it twice and after this he is unconscious for some rounds .
He even can damage own troops with the bladewind .



Do you ever try playing something before giving your 'expert' opinion?

First - bladewind tends to do very minimal damage to Ulm's national troops. (Never mind that almost _ANY_ area of effect spell can damage friendly troops, exceptions being cold spells with Jotunheim/Caelum, Fire with Abysia, and poison with undead nations.)

Second - Ulm forges things _cheap_. Mastersmiths that aren't forging / researching / casting are usually going to have earth boots. With Summon Earthpower, Bladewind then costs 40 (plus encumbrance). Three casts, and very quickly a 4th, because of fatigue recovery every turn.

Last, did you notice that he scripted Bladewind for the fifth spell? IE, it's probably going to nail all the gathered false horrors in a group. And could actually probably cast it as the 4th and 5th spells actually, since he'll still be conscious after 2 bladewinds.

[Truper]

I dunno why this thread has degenerated into insults and rudeness, but its sure saddening to see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Soapyfrog]

Seems to me that its pretty unlikely false horror spam is balanced well or even working as intended. Just as I think clamming and fetishing are out of whack, or that wrathful skies is too easy to research and too easy to cast.

I mean, its a HUGE game... broad AND deep. Odds are it has some outstanding balance issues, and I think that this forum will tend to hit on them since we have a broad mix of players trying all kinds of different things out. I don't think saying "the game is fine, you just suck" is really the answer here.

I don't see any widely available, viable counters to false horrors. Blade wind is tough to get for most people. Fire darts are wildly inaccurate. And of course MOST empires will be damaging their own troops since the false horros fly in all weather conditions. So what else? Berserkers? Again, not exactly widely available.

It doesnt seem to be that simple a problem to solve...

[Huzurdaddi]

I dunno why this thread has degenerated into insults and rudeness, but its sure saddening to see




It started out as a 5 star thread. I was so happy to see people liking my little thread about Pythium. I may start another one after this game I am playing to share with people what little I have learnt and to get more info from other players as to what works.

As to false horrors. I find it weird that the spell breaks indeps so well ( I mean, try it it take 10 minutes to set up a game and get to the stage where you can try it ). With a handfull of Serphas you can take any indep. You can grow at an amazing rate. It SEEMS to me to be faster than any other nation. And it is also great for busting PD.

I think Caelum does not win most games since this strategy takes TIME to develop ( like turn 12 or so on normal research maybe a little earlier ) and on a somewhat small map with a few players conflict happens before this time. However on a big map with a good amount of space my money is on Caelum. It's not 100% alliances can be made stuff like that.

How about this. Take a decent sized map ( something a little bigger than Aran ) with 2 players one takes Caelum one takes something else. Set indpes to let's say 9. My money is on Caelum.

[Cohen]

Caelum doesn't need False Horrors to start indep conquest.
Wind Guide is sufficient with some quicknessed lightning throwers.
In game tested.

I'm happy to see someone thinks that Wrathful Skies is easy to research and cast (want to see Astral Tempest, or the fire counterpart, how much they cost in paths and research level?)

[Boron]

Cainehill said:

Boron said:

Tuna said:
Ulm, Flying shards/ summon earthpower, hold hold, blade wind. Blade wind up close is very likely to kill every fh that gets in your way.



Bladewind has 80 fatigue . So a mastersmith can cast it twice and after this he is unconscious for some rounds .
He even can damage own troops with the bladewind .



Do you ever try playing something before giving your 'expert' opinion?

First - bladewind tends to do very minimal damage to Ulm's national troops. (Never mind that almost _ANY_ area of effect spell can damage friendly troops, exceptions being cold spells with Jotunheim/Caelum, Fire with Abysia, and poison with undead nations.)

Second - Ulm forges things _cheap_. Mastersmiths that aren't forging / researching / casting are usually going to have earth boots. With Summon Earthpower, Bladewind then costs 40 (plus encumbrance). Three casts, and very quickly a 4th, because of fatigue recovery every turn.

Last, did you notice that he scripted Bladewind for the fifth spell? IE, it's probably going to nail all the gathered false horrors in a group. And could actually probably cast it as the 4th and 5th spells actually, since he'll still be conscious after 2 bladewinds.


First ulmish archers , sappers and arlabests can be easy damaged by bladewind .
And more important when casting it on turn 4 or 5 the odds are not bad that the horrors have already routed your troops .
Even if they are not routed it doesn't matter at all since the Seraphs continue spamming false horrors with a few occasional phantasmal warriors .
So very nice , even investing 10 earthgems in earthboots you probably still lose .

[Zen]

First ulmish archers , sappers and arlabests can be easy damaged by bladewind .

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but if your sappers, archers and artlabests are in the way of a blade wind, you are probably losing for reasons that have nothing to do with fatigue. Even with crazy placement of mages vs troops and fighting flying units that attack archers, blade wind becomes very, very accurate when it's close.


So very nice , even investing 10 earthgems in earthboots you probably still lose .

It's actually 5 gems, you don't start forging Earth Boots without using a Smith + Hammer except for your first pair.

[Zen]

Boron said:
Well please post your opinions . I will perhaps ask a lot of questions then about your viewpoints but in the end you probably convince me .



Well if you want my opinion, which it always has been, that Air is the most powerful of school with all the goodies. Now with that said, do I think False Horrors is overpowered because you can spam them? Or because 2 Seraphs or even Harab Seraphs can cause havok and make it frustrating to play with/against.

My answer is no. I do however feel that False Horrors is not true to the game dynamic for only the reason that Air already has multiple summons along it's path. I don't know why Air has to have A.) Cheap Reusable Battle Summons B.) Cheapest Potent Battlewide Magic (Armor Piercing for your pleasure!) C.) High-strength individual battle attacks and individual/battlefield buffs and D.) Universally usable Summons E.) Artifacts that totally negate entire types of units (Archers AND Fliers) at a markedly lower cost than others.

My feeling is that Death (and to a limited extent Nature) should but as good, if not better at A.). So any feelings on 'nerfing' False Horrors falls in line with the magical definition and strength of Paths of magic.

I have been swarmed by False Horrors, I have swarmed with False Horrors, I have been successful and have been unsucessful. In the end it doesn't make as much difference. People who tend to complain about these things in this manner are 'tired' of that strategy because of it's effecitveness and having to mold a defense for it for every nation/pretender.

Caleum is weaker than it was previous to the 2.12 patch, so it's hardly overpowered now more than it was previous. While very decent (I'd place it in the top 5 nations, easily, but not the top) there is no reason it shouldn't be based on the mechanic of flying and it's very obvious advantages in the game that cannot be changed.

[Cainehill]

Huzurdaddi said:


I dunno why this thread has degenerated into insults and rudeness, but its sure saddening to see




It started out as a 5 star thread.



And it may have dropped, not because of 'rudeness and insults', but because of the quality (or lack thereof) of a bunch of Posts written by people who haven't thought about strategies much less tried playing them.

Edit: Or because the rating for a thread about Pythium that contains mostly debate about Caelum doesn't deserve five stars. And sorry, but it wasn't I (who I expect am the alleged rudester) who perverted the thread's content.



As to false horrors. I find it weird that the spell breaks indeps so well ( I mean, try it it take 10 minutes to set up a game and get to the stage where you can try it ). With a handfull of Serphas you can take any indep. You can grow at an amazing rate. It SEEMS to me to be faster than any other nation. And it is also great for busting PD.




Independents are broken just about as fast via a handful of quickened seraphs using lightning. Frankly, I find lightning more effective against many of the independents, and also against any PD that includes archers.



I think Caelum does not win most games since this strategy takes TIME to develop ( like turn 12 or so on normal research maybe a little earlier ) and on a somewhat small map with a few players conflict happens before this time. However on a big map with a good amount of space my money is on Caelum. It's not 100% alliances can be made stuff like that.




Most of my games are on moderately large maps - Cradle, Karan, etc. And still, I don't see Caelum winning even a simple majority of the games that it's in. This, without "OMG! We gotta get Caelum!" alliances - which just a few months ago, were "OMG! We gotta get Ermor!" alliances. It's simply the panic du jour.



How about this. Take a decent sized map ( something a little bigger than Aran ) with 2 players one takes Caelum one takes something else. Set indpes to let's say 9. My money is on Caelum.



My money would be on Caelum if the "something else" was T'ien C'hi, maybe. Otherwise, it's fairly trivial to come up with a solid counter-Caelum strategy, given that it's only indies and Caelum.

Any of the undead nations / themes would have good odds; all in all, I'd say that about half the nations could get at least 50/50 odds, if you predicate players of equal skill. And any nation could lose against any other nation in this scenario, simply because of luck with magic sites. If you have Atlantis and it only finds 2 water sites in its first 20 provinces, a lot of its usual strategies are shot.

And I can name a handful of prominent posters who would raise the odds of the other nation winning to 75%, if they were playing Caelum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Kel]

Cainehill said:
Most of my games are on moderately large maps - Cradle, Karan, etc. And still, I don't see Caelum winning even a simple majority of the games that it's in. This, without "OMG! We gotta get Caelum!" alliances - which just a few months ago, were "OMG! We gotta get Ermor!" alliances. It's simply the panic du jour.



Not that I am agreeing or disagreeing with your sentiments on Caelum but I just wanted to note that Ermor did get a slight nerf when they lost the VQ. Personally, I still hate playing with Ermor while I am pretty neutral about Caelum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

- Kel

[Soapyfrog]

Cainehill said:
My money would be on Caelum if the "something else" was T'ien C'hi, maybe.


So you are saying Tien Chi is too weak? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[BigDaddy]

I use hordes of emerald guards because they die far less against indies and rarely rout (better armor, morale, hps, attack, weapon). They are slow though, use lots or resources and carry no javelins. They can often take lance attacks. I often select fortified city and prod 3 so i can churn more out by turn 5-6 when i have all my neighbors. I find my extreme growth rate to compensate for the lack of sites to hire communicants. Has anyone else tried this?

Emerald Lords have 17 defence skill (15 attack) and rarely die when spells aren't involved. Arm them, give them a small guard, and have them kill rear mages.

Rainbow mages rock with pytium becuase a 4S arch theurg with an astral cap can make a ring of wizardry. Then you shouldn't have any trouble making items or casting spells with your well thought out rainbow. I ussually just take 4S on my rainbow pretender for this reason.

From what i can tell Pythium is about rapid early expansion, even the computer expands rapidly. Against independent 9's emerald guards are the best, except that pythium has assasins.

I've only played against 1 human opponent is several MP games, and I wouldn't use emerald guards to actually attack enemy players with mages, but i wouldn't advise principes for this either. If i was going to attack enemy mages with normal units i would prefer emerald guards though, because of their higher prot, hp, and morale.

[Endoperez]

Emerald guards are good, but expensive. I personally prefer Principes (atleast with Broken Empire Ermor). Fast, have javelin, still good morale, att and defence, good prot for move-2 unit, considerably cheaper...

And as Ermor, even Broken Empire, lances are only a loss of a longdead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Emerald Guards are excellent when they can be used: that is, when speed isn't needed but you need someone tough on the frontline. Most people in this forum seem to prefer not use frontline at all, but few SCs, and some summons might be more cost effective, but Emerald Guards are very good at what they do.

[BigDaddy]

Right, I use the emerald guard strategy i outlined to take hordes of provinces early. Drive to another good castle site and repeat once or twice. You'll easily have the most provinces. Often you can have 40 or more by turn 30. That kind of income is a huge boost to research, and you get tons gems with AR. Speed is not neccessary, because you are just taking one province and the next, etc.

[T77]

EGs are good against tough independents, like Knights. I find that Principes take heavy casualties against Knights. So early on I build EGs and then I switch to Principes once I've cleared out my area. Then I just use the existing EGs as garrisons.