standard pangenea : usefulness of maenards ? or rely on blood ?

[Boron]

i discovered pangenea once again .
there was a great pangeneadiscussion here some months ago which i read .

the maenard idea is basically nice since they are upkeepfree . but the pans are damn expensive and turmoil 3 is very bad with that .

so when you most need them for early expansion you won't get enough to rely on them .
but later if you have e.g. 5 pans i think you get ~50 / turn .
so since they don't have recuperation you will run into supply problems quite soon then. forging cauldrons of broth just for them is gemwasting . with your quite lousy research researching con 4 early for the cheaper bags of vine is perhaps no good idea too .

but supply issues will prevent you from making the hordes in which they would be really useful i think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
they are just worst cannon fodder like basic ermorian undeads but you can't use them in great enough numbers .
they can't be banished but almost each missile hit kills a maenard and supplies are a real problem.
question : if other supply using troops are in the same area is there a system which troops aren't feed or is it randomly ?
e.g. that the first troops who getting nothing to eat are the maenards ?

i guess i try them as a blood nation but a 320 non sacred blood mage is damn expensive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif
for early expansion i most likely use the revelrers they aren't very good but at least cheap

another question : is there any race which has mages with blood 2+ earth 2+ or at least picks in both able to summon demon knights ?
has perhaps one of the amazon sorceresses these 2 pathes ?

[Vynd]

Pangaea does seem to be set up to encourage taking Turmoil and Luck. The Turmoil gets you lots of Maenads. The Luck compliments the Turmoil and makes the blood spell that Pandemoniacs are particularly good at, cross-breeding, more effective. The Turmoil is definitely a heavy price to pay, though, especially considering all the negatives you've pointed out about maenads.

[Gandalf Parker]

I use maenads for patrolling and bolstering he morale of other units. If I get too many I send them off to attack someplace to raise the experience of some of my commanders.

The really fun thing about Maedads, and why I hope they NEVER go away, is what happens when Pans (or Lord of the Wild) sneaks. If you have NO troops already assigned to you, then the maenads dont showup on the troop line, but up in the assign queue. If you are sneaking then they attack the province.

As a harrassing tactic its great. No two-step (move, do something, move, do somthing). All you have to do is move around. Every province you just left will have an attack report. If an opponent isnt spending money on defense it can be very irritating.

Also fun if you give the black heart that gives assassin skills to them. Do an assassination, see a probing attack on the province, do another assassination, see a probing attack. You dont have to guess about when you got the Last commander. And its really funny to see that Last army run away from a few wild naked women.

[ July 05, 2004, 17:49: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[Boron]

very naugthy tactic gandalf http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

i think i didn't fully understand though how your maenad attack works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
is it a leaderless attack of the summoned maenads ?
don't they rout immediately too because they are leaderless too ? or is the pan the leader of them ?
do you get control of nodefense enemy provinces with which you did this naugthy trick ?

and may i ask how you design your scales ?
do you take turmoil 3 or something smaller ?
cause i am always tempted to take sloth 3 with pangenea too because of their very resourcecheap units ( expect the war minotaur / centaur cataphract ) .
but on the other hand i always feel a strong need for taking magic 3 with them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif and as vynd said for pangenea luck 3 is very attractive too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
but in general for the first 10-20 turns you won't build many pans and especially then i think the maenads would be most useful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Gandalf Parker]

They are leaderless but they do have a high moral. I seem to have a percentage chance of getting the province. In any case I at least know its safe to attack with the pan on the next round if need be. I think one of the "spread-sheet/rules" players said it had something to do with attacker vs defender. What I seem to see is that it seems to boil down to whoever actually leaves the field first loses. When both rout it seems to be a race.

I dont like turmoil with Pangaea. The money is a big need, and I really need to use every independent troop I can make. So Id rather have Order for gold and less need to leave patrols behind in the provinces I make them in. Most of my uses of Maenads dont call for big numbers, or happen outside of my dominion anyway.

I also play alot of stealth so I tend to take low dominion, and lots of painful negatives, so my scales probably wouldnt work well for you.

With Carrion I take turmoil.

[Boron]

gandalf do you try to bloodhunt with pangenea too or do you try to strengthen them later on by conjurations like lamia queens and so on ?

i myself tried to rush first to crossbreeding and make an impressive force with this because 20 units for 15 blood slaves is nice .

but setting up a blood economy is much more difficult with pangenea than with abysia or marignon df . i even tried a FoB pretender + high economy scales and patrolled with harpies .
with growth your population still growth and you don't lose taxes but annoyingly the fob gets in average only 10 blood slaves / turn.
with a normal blood hunter like a demonbred i get about 6-8 in average so almost the same return.

a small drawback from the cross breed spell is that if you are unlucky you only get 20 foul spawns and most of them cost even 0.67 upkeep so almost the same as a revelrer but are worse fighters . it's a big gambling .

guess i try a blood hunting jotunheim next since the gygias have n1 bl1 so i can use crossbreeds + frost fiends .

may i ask what pretenders you normally choose with pangenea gandalf ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Nappa]

I've been very succesful with +3 turmiol and luck. I use a rainbow pheonix and build a powerful gem economy.

Rely on summoned casters which you have access to many. You need to find a good research indy though.

I use pans in strategic places with centaurs ferrying maenads to the front line. My #1 research priority is mass protection.

Tons of maenads with barkskin followd by Vine ogres also with barkskin and it's silly how fast you can expand.

I'm typically building other gem based armies during this time.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
a small drawback from the cross breed spell is that if you are unlucky you only get 20 foul spawns and most of them cost even 0.67 upkeep so almost the same as a revelrer but are worse fighters .<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's 0.067 upkeep for most of them I believe, not 0.67.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Nappa:
I've been very succesful with +3 turmiol and luck. I use a rainbow pheonix and build a powerful gem economy.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A rainbow *PHOENIX*? With 80 point paths? Either your definition of "rainbow" differs, or your scales really bite. How do you afford this?

[Nappa]

4f/3a/4w/4s

6 dominion
3turmoil/1heat/3luck

you get death line from lamia queen, earth, nature and blood from pans.

I'm forgetting which fort but I believe it's the 40 point one.

[ July 06, 2004, 00:51: Message edited by: Nappa ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Sometimes I will push blood. There is another tactic I dearly love. A Pandemoniac Assassin using the Hellbind Heart spell. Bind/Bind/attack. Vry often the bind will work and the commander is now yours. Right after the assassin message is a combat message where the new convert attacks everyone in the province. If he is the Last commander you get to watch what WAS his army rout from him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Im more of a role player than a strategy-to-win. And I mostly play solo rather than multiplayer. So I like using Lord of the Hunt (consider this: a godly assassin who throws maenads). I also like Manticore if Im going for scales. He is handy for quick deliveries of equip, gems, harpies. And he works well with my hopscotch way of conquering provinces when I play Pangaea. Carrion Dragon has alot going for it also even if you arent playing Carrion theme. +10 fear, good hit points, and the alternate form has alot going for it. Even better with Carrion theme since if you magic it correctly you can prduce carrion commanders without having to purchase a Pandemoniac

[chrispedersen]

I go the other way...

Quite!

Turmoil 3,
Luck 1
Drain 1-2
Growth 3

High Dominion. I will generally go sloth 3 as well.

The High growth helps to recover your income a bit, with a good dominion, it boosts food in surrounding terrains.

With Max taxes, I can generally build a Pan a turn - since I'm building so many, research is fine even with the drain.

600-700 naked girls a turn.. whats not to like?

[Boron]

Originally posted by chrispedersen:
I go the other way...

Quite!

Turmoil 3,
Luck 1
Drain 1-2
Growth 3

High Dominion. I will generally go sloth 3 as well.

The High growth helps to recover your income a bit, with a good dominion, it boosts food in surrounding terrains.

With Max taxes, I can generally build a Pan a turn - since I'm building so many, research is fine even with the drain.

600-700 naked girls a turn.. whats not to like? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hmmmmmmmm max taxes .
in the manual addenda stands you get -0,3 % pop per 10% tax above 100% . + it should increase unrest .
but i don't know if it is totally correct . so i will try it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

what do you do to limit the supplyproblem ?
if the maenads were need not eat they would be really nice . you seem to have expierience with massmaenads http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
so a question :
if you have more maenads than supply and other troops too in the area which ones do starve first ?
only the maenads or perhaps your valueable summons ?

[Gandalf Parker]

That one way to go. I just like to maximize my unobtrusivness. Playing maximum stealth, things like strong dominion act against you.

Also you can take harmful scales if you arent pushing the dominion outward. Most of your activity will be outside your candle-lit zone, and the bad affects will mostly affect anyone attacking your home province.

One of the things I like about this game is the lack of "the winning strategy" to find and then be done with it. There are tons of strategys. We all get one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Boron]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

One of the things I like about this game is the lack of "the winning strategy" to find and then be done with it. There are tons of strategys. We all get one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yep that makes dominion so unique and brilliant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
in no other game i know are so many different strategies possible . and the ~30 nations if you count themes as nations too are well balanced .

there a no real bad choices almost every unit has a role in which it is good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Boron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

One of the things I like about this game is the lack of "the winning strategy" to find and then be done with it. There are tons of strategys. We all get one. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yep that makes dominion so unique and brilliant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
in no other game i know are so many different strategies possible . and the ~30 nations if you count themes as nations too are well balanced .

there a no real bad choices almost every unit has a role in which it is good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Eh - there's been a handful of other games that also didn't have a single "winning strategy". The original classic MoM was one. The Age of Wizards games - they were certainly a bit more linear (especially the later ones) but you could also build your strategy around how you built your heroes, which units and magics you choose. Seems like Kohan was similar as well.

And yet - yes, there are "bad choices" in Dom2, where another alternative is always better. Independent commanders vice C'tis Slavemasters, for instance; some of the pretender choices, etc.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
And yet - yes, there are "bad choices" in Dom2, where another alternative is always better. Independent commanders vice C'tis Slavemasters, for instance; some of the pretender choices, etc. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Those "bad" choices have a place, too: Psychological warfare. If all choices were always valid for some situation, there would be no obviously "bad" decisions that you could intentionally make to psych out your opponent, and make him think you are a fool. The entire point of these "bad" decisions is to deliberately make them, let your opponent see you make them, and convince him you are an incompetent fool.

The dumber they think you are, the funnier it is when you kill them.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Cainehill:
And yet - yes, there are "bad choices" in Dom2, where another alternative is always better. Independent commanders vice C'tis Slavemasters, for instance; some of the pretender choices, etc. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Those "bad" choices have a place, too: Psychological warfare. If all choices were always valid for some situation, there would be no obviously "bad" decisions that you could intentionally make to psych out your opponent, and make him think you are a fool. The entire point of these "bad" decisions is to deliberately make them, let your opponent see you make them, and convince him you are an incompetent fool.

The dumber they think you are, the funnier it is when you kill them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So how come we never see you taking the Lord of Gates, as psychological warfare? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif