upkeep [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Boron

July 13th, 2004, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Zen:
Trolls/Sea Trolls that have a liability? OMG! That shouldn't be!

While there are plenty of people who seem to think the cost is not worth the effect on Trolls or Sea Trolls, thare are another Category of people who think that with their upkeep they disallow certain strategies (ever notice how well Trolls rebuild castle walls?) and make you take a posture if you wish to use them (offensive). While it may be a little harsh it's still managable. you're just kidding or ?
what's so special with trolls / sea trolls ?
only special thing is the 1 water gem / turn via the sea troll king . if they are upkeepfree perhaps this should be altered.
but otherwise ?
for 45water/earthgems you get 15 trolls + 1 king . the trolls themselves are not very strong ihmo .
for 30 death you get 20 wights e.g. which are far stronger .
the kings are nice but they can't summon allies and i think aren't too good sc's either so all thems pretty ok to me . a airqueen e.g. which could summon allies 10 turns should easily beat a troll king with his 15 trolls .

and best thing it would give water magic some amphibian summons . i always read ppl complaining water magic is too weak . upkeepfree sea trolls would enchance it quite ihmo .
but i can't see why a troll king with his 15 trolls is better than e.g. 20 wights + 1 bane lord which has comparable costs : 40 death compared to 45 earth/water

July 13th, 2004, 07:56 PM

You would know better than I.

NTJedi

July 13th, 2004, 09:11 PM

The Sea Troll King is usually good during a game... sometimes he becomes my prophet too.

The regular Troll King I rarely summon myself... since they can flee because of morale and have an upkeep of 4. The 15 trolls is 60 upkeep plus the upkeep of the king is enough to buy a temple after 3 turns.

With almost every unit I summon or purchase... its important to me that as many of them survive as long as possible.

==========

I also found Zen creature reference guide... double thanks for info.

[ July 13, 2004, 20:14: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Endoperez

July 13th, 2004, 09:14 PM

Boron: Conjuration 9 is HIGH. At that level summons are meant to be very cost-effective, worth every gem you use. Wights are. (Sea) Trolls are nice mid-game, and might be the one thing that forces you to defend instead of researching, or that kills you before you get access to Wights. Also, if you have the right mages and want to use them for summoning instead of researching, you can summon one trolls for one gem. With, say, 10 national mages summoning trolls for three turns you get 30 trolls for 30 gems. It is slower, but very cost-efficient in gems, although less so in mage time. All those mages could be doing something else, like forging, fighting or researching, or searching for sites.

Besides, recruiting trolls for 0gp/piece would become boring after a while, don't you think? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Boron

July 14th, 2004, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Endoperez:
Boron: Conjuration 9 is HIGH. At that level summons are meant to be very cost-effective, worth every gem you use. Wights are. (Sea) Trolls are nice mid-game, and might be the one thing that forces you to defend instead of researching, or that kills you before you get access to Wights. Also, if you have the right mages and want to use them for summoning instead of researching, you can summon one trolls for one gem. With, say, 10 national mages summoning trolls for three turns you get 30 trolls for 30 gems. It is slower, but very cost-efficient in gems, although less so in mage time. All those mages could be doing something else, like forging, fighting or researching, or searching for sites.

Besides, recruiting trolls for 0gp/piece would become boring after a while, don't you think? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif the site where you can recruit trolls should be removed or modified of course . i didn't mention it because i thought it is clear .

ok if you summon 1 troll for 1 gem it is costwise cheaper . but you could instead summon vine ogres. the cost is 1 gem too , with items / special summoners you can get even more .
a ivy crown costs only 5 nature gems and you already get 2 vine ogres / summon .
the vine ogres don't have regeneration but are mindless so they never rout . that makes them ihmo an as useful "shield" as ordinary trolls.

although i don't use them much myself contact draconians is a good comparable spell too :
like trolls you get 15 draconians +1 chief.
the chief is no mage but can summon further draconians. but they are upkeepfree .

worth a test would be to give the troll king summon allies ability too and reduce the gotten trolls to 10 but make them upkeepfree .
trolls are the only summons which you can't summon endlessly if you have enough gems .
this makes them clearly inferior to all other summons . and they don't have such great abilities which justify paying upkeep .

NTJedi

July 14th, 2004, 07:20 PM

I'm not sure why the developers decided to have black hawks cost an upkeep.... they want/need money the same as great lions, wolves and other animals. Perhaps they just don't like birds.

PvK

July 14th, 2004, 07:33 PM

Good question. I wondered that too, but I was also wondering why Black Hawks and similar common animals don't have stealth. Seems like they should have it, by virtue of most animals not being magical minions...

PvK

Gandalf Parker

July 14th, 2004, 07:37 PM

Dont birds get a patrol bonus?

Norfleet

July 14th, 2004, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by PvK:
Good question. I wondered that too, but I was also wondering why Black Hawks and similar common animals don't have stealth. Seems like they should have it, by virtue of most animals not being magical minions...Well, wolves get it because they're wolves. They tend to be everywhere and nobody pays too much attention to them.

Bears, lions, tigers, and elephants, on the other hand, people notice when they start nosing around!

And Black Hawks make people point at the HUGE BIRD flying overhead.

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Dont birds get a patrol bonus? They don't have a specially added patrol bonus, but they do receive a bonus when patrolling by virtue of being fliers.

NTJedi

July 14th, 2004, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Dont birds get a patrol bonus? They have as much patrol bonus as a draconian flyer... yet the tiny black hawks have a gold upkeep and draconians don't.
Maybe they only eat the really expensive and sophisticated bird food !!

The developers know the real reason... but they've locked away that secret in a security box at The Chicago Bank... at least that's the rumor on the street.

[ July 14, 2004, 19:26: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Nagot Gick Fel

July 14th, 2004, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Boron:
you're just kidding or ?
[...]
for 45water/earthgems you get 15 trolls + 1 king . the trolls themselves are not very strong ihmo . Not strong? Who's kidding now? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

for 30 death you get 20 wights e.g. which are far stronger .You're comparing a Conjuration 6 level 3 spell to a Conjuration 9 level 6 spell here. The huges differences in requirements should be a hint your comparison isn't really meaningful.

Besides, there's no really obvious to kill a Troll. OTOH you obviously haven't seen what a few Wither Bones can do to your 20 Wights yet, and it's likely most nations will have access to that spell when you reach Conjuration 9. When that'll happen, you'll think you better had recruited militia instead.

the kings are nice but they can't summon allies and i think aren't too good sc's either so all thems pretty ok to me . a airqueen e.g. which could summon allies 10 turns should easily beat a troll king with his 15 trolls .

and best thing it would give water magic some amphibian summons.Ah, Water magic. So we're talking about Sea Kings here. They may not have a 'summon allies' option, but they generate water gems that can be used to summon a Sea Troll/turn at no gem cost - so in the end, the result is exactly the same. While your Air Queen is busy summonin allies, the King can do the same and get 10 more Trolls for the same base cost - ie, nil. That's a more meaningful comparison.

Boron

July 14th, 2004, 08:37 PM

hm a completely NEW idea :
if all magic summons would need upkeep ?

some gold some perhaps 0,x gems / turn ?

like a vampire lord wants 1 blood slave every 2 turns ?
the magical leader units small gemupkeepcost , the magical units like wights gold ?

to the further discussion :
@ nagot the sea trolls of course should no longer get 1 water gem / turn . instead they get summon allies .

and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .

NTJedi

July 14th, 2004, 08:41 PM

Boron... those are some nice ideas but the amount of work for the developers is far to great thus we won't see this for Dominions_2.

Graeme Dice

July 14th, 2004, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
I'm not sure why the developers decided to have black hawks cost an upkeep.... they want/need money the same as great lions, wolves and other animals. Perhaps they just don't like birds. They have an upkeep as a holdover from DOM1 I believe, since otherwise they were by far the cheapest patrollers.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 14th, 2004, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Boron:
and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .Yes, it makes more sense to me, although both troop types have very different uses. Still, 3 points that are worth mentionning:

(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.

(2) I have many many uses for air gems, not so many for water - mostly Sea Trolls and small items like clams or boots - so even if I find myself with 45 air gems at a moment (rare) it's likely I will burn them into something else than Draconians.

(3) Most of the time I don't need the Draconians flying ability as bad as I need the Sea Trolls amphibian and 'need not eat' abilities. You could argue the same abilities are available on undead troops, to which I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone. And alchemizing water to astral to death to recruit more undead instead of Trolls isn't really an efficient use of gems in my book - even if you insert clams in the chain (this may not be entirely true if these clams have been producing gems for scores of game turns, but that's another topic - I'm not really the kind of player who sacrifices the short term to the long term anyway).

So in the end I find myself using Sea Trolls much more often than Draconians - I don't even think I ever used the latter in multiplayer.

NTJedi

July 14th, 2004, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.
Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians.
Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder.

[ July 14, 2004, 21:23: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Cainehill

July 14th, 2004, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Boron:
and what do you say to my comparison of trolls with draconians ? it is a reasonable ihmo .Yes, it makes more sense to me, although both troop types have very different uses. Still, 3 points that are worth mentionning:

(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.
<hr /></blockquote>They can be summoned individually, with 0 upkeep, at one magic site.

(2) I have many many uses for air gems, not so many for water - mostly Sea Trolls and small items like clams or boots - so even if I find myself with 45 air gems at a moment (rare) it's likely I will burn them into something else than Draconians.

Heh. So - because Water magic sucks so bad, and there are so few other decent uses for water gems, the sea trolls are fine as is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(3) (...) I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone.

Sheesh. And 100 undead + 20 draconians has a lot more punch than 100 undead alone, as the draconians attack the commanders in the rear. 100 undead + 20 vine men has a lot more punch, 100 undead + 20 bog beasts, etc, etc. Your point is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ July 14, 2004, 21:48: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Nagot Gick Fel

July 14th, 2004, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
(1) Draconians can't be summoned individually, unless you summon the whole pack first.
Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, and to get that leader you need to summon the whole pack first. Exactly what I said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder. Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game.

NTJedi

July 14th, 2004, 11:31 PM

correct copy above

[ July 14, 2004, 22:34: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

NTJedi

July 14th, 2004, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
[QUOTE]Draconians can be summoned individually and for ZERO gems... by the leader of the Draconians. Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

Yes, and to get that leader you need to summon the whole pack first. Exactly what I said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
The point here is the ZERO gems and no upkeep... somehow you missed that. LOL

Why have a Troll King spend an earth gem every turn for a new Troll which has 4 upkeep.... when a Draconian leader can get a new Draconian for free which has ZERO upkeep.The point here is that pound per pound the Draconians don't have an upkeep and don't have a gem cost for each new individual summon.

4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder. Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game. Wrong... upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income. Income and upkeep can vary depending on the nation being played and the players style of playing.
Also I never said it was a design flaw.

[ July 14, 2004, 22:33: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Nagot Gick Fel

July 14th, 2004, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Cainehill:
They can be summoned individually, with 0 upkeep, at one magic site.Oh damn. Sure you're lucky enough to find this UNIQUE site just next to your capital in every game you play? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Heh. So - because Water magic sucks so bad, and there are so few other decent uses for water gems, the sea trolls are fine as is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Heh. So - because everything that's rare is expensive, and cheap horses are rare, thus cheap horses must be expensive?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />(3) (...) I'd reply I'll always get more punch from 100 undead + 20 Sea Trolls than from 100 undead alone.Sheesh. And 100 undead + 20 draconians has a lot more punch than 100 undead alone, as the draconians attack the commanders in the rear. 100 undead + 20 vine men has a lot more punch, 100 undead + 20 bog beasts, etc, etc. Your point is? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <hr /></blockquote>

My point was in the part you conveniently snipped. Look for the words 'amphibian' and 'need not eat', maybe that'll give you a clue. Draconians had none of these abilities Last time I checked.

Graeme Dice

July 14th, 2004, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?No, for most nations I'd summon a single troll king's court to get the higher level earth mage, then spend all the rest of the earth gems on hammers, forging items, and summoning the construction based earth summons. I'd only bother with more trolls if I had most of my research completed, and was no longer purchasing any conventional units.

Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income.Every casting of the troll king's courts adds either 45 or 55 gold to your upkeep costs. That is an extremely large expense that is very hard to justify in many cases.

Boron

July 14th, 2004, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />4 upkeep is not much for small maps... but for the XL maps I play the 4 upkeep for the armies I need are murder. Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income. If you have problems on large maps, it's either due to your inefficiency in dealing with large empires, or to your own decision to sacrifice efficiency to cut the micromanagement down. Anyway it's certainly not due to a design flaw in the game. <hr /></blockquote>the bigger the map the more likely it is that your income drops in the long run due to global enchantments like utterdark. then with common events most likely many events happened which killed population of you and so on .
the main problem with big maps is that you can cast summon trolls e.g. 5 - 10 times but then you will be at your upkeeplimit and you have much less flexibility than anyone who has summons which need no upkeep . they can spend the money on castles , pd , additional mages , whatever they like .

i still don't see what makes trolls / sea trolls so special compared to all other magic summons that they are the only ones who need horrible upkeep .

especially for water summons this is really not good because they can't rely heavily on the trolls . so in the long run building clams is most likely always better than summoning the trolls . the upkeep is really prohibitive for them . compared to national troops you still get quite much for your upkeep . 3,33 / 4 for sea / earth troll means that they would cost 50 / 60 gold so it is really hard to find national troops of this cost that kill a troll but that's not the point . every nation that doesn't need trolls / sea trolls but can summon death / nature ... creatures has this creatures + troops / mages worth 60 upkeep and so they always win against the trolls .
i think atlantis would be much more played if the sea trolls would cost no upkeep but loose their ability to get 1 watergem / turn .

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
The point here is the ZERO gems and no upkeep... somehow you missed that. LOLSomething that YOU missed is we were talking about Sea Trolls (not regular Trolls) when you jumped in. So much for the ZERO gems, since Sea Kings generate the gem they need to summon Sea Trolls. And one minus one equals ...?

About the upkeep I agree there's some, but my opinion is, and always has been, that it's negligible.

The point here is that pound per pound the Draconians don't have an upkeep and don't have a gem cost for each new individual summon.Highly debatable. The initial 45 gems investment is still there. If you have the leader summon for 30 turns, you'll get 45 Draconians for a 45 gems investment. 1 gem/Draconian may be cheap, but it's not zero.

Wrong... upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income. Income and upkeep can vary depending on the nation being played and the players style of playing.I can't understand where you're heading here. Obviously I meant 'other things being equal' here. Same player, conditions, etc. except for the map size - which BTW was your own point, not mine.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So if you lack air gems but have 180 earth you'll prefer to alchemize them to 90 astral then to 45 air so you can summon Draconians for free?No, for most nations I'd summon a single troll king's court to get the higher level earth mage, then spend all the rest of the earth gems on hammers, forging items, and summoning the construction based earth summons. I'd only bother with more trolls if I had most of my research completed, and was no longer purchasing any conventional units.<hr /></blockquote>Fine - that's what I'd do too, at least 90% of the time. Anyway this question wasn't for you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Nonsense. Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your income.Every casting of the troll king's courts adds either 45 or 55 gold to your upkeep costs. That is an extremely large expense that is very hard to justify in many cases.<hr /></blockquote>And how does this relate to the paragraph you quoted? The point was on a 3 x bigger map, with a (likely) 3 x bigger empire, and thus a (likely) 3 x bigger income, having to pay the upkeep of 3 x more Trolls should NOT be 3 x more painful, since it eats up the same percentage of your income.

[ July 14, 2004, 23:31: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

NTJedi

July 15th, 2004, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Something that YOU missed is we were talking about Sea Trolls (not regular Trolls) when you jumped in. Boron's quote was referring to BOTH sea trolls and regular trolls posted July 14, 2004 19:32 where you quote Boron.
As far as Sea Trolls I consider them worthwhile since they are able to enter the sea and the king generates water gems. Regular trolls are not.

About the upkeep I agree there's some, but my opinion is, and always has been, that it's negligible.
4 upkeep per troll is nothing to sweep under a rug and ignore. During a game I have acquired as many as 110 living statues... if I spent those gems on trolls the upkeep would cost me the ability to build several temples and/or hire units. Unless I am losing where they are killed quickly. lol

you'll get 45 Draconians for a 45 gems investment. 1 gem/Draconian may be cheap, but it's not zero.
The gold upkeep is zero... not true for trolls. Thus a successful large army of trolls which stays alive 30 turns gets very very expensive. Not true with Draconians or Living Statues.

[qb]Wrong... upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income. Income and upkeep can vary depending on the nation being played and the players style of playing. I can't understand where you're heading here. Obviously I meant 'other things being equal' here. Same player, conditions, etc. except for the map size - which BTW was your own point, not mine. Upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income for some players. I've witnessed strategies where allied players(hotseat) would never exceed X amount of gold upkeep... basically flat line. Any additional gold income would be spent on temples, province defense, forts and anything without upkeep... hope that clears it up.

[ July 15, 2004, 00:33: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Norfleet

July 15th, 2004, 01:30 AM

I think the bottom line of this: Sea Kings Good. Trolls bad. As with anything that sucks up gold in upkeep at a rate greater than they are actually worth, the actual trolls are a Bad Thing as opposed to a good thing. The moral here: Always summon your Sea Trolls close to the front line, and abuse them as harshly as possible so that they die, preferrably in a gainful manner that doesn't simultaneously kill the Sea King, who is good.

NTJedi

July 15th, 2004, 01:35 AM

I agree with Norfleet

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by Boron:
the bigger the map the more likely it is that your income drops in the long run due to global enchantments like utterdark. then with common events most likely many events happened which killed population of you and so on .I don't know how big is big for you, anyway I've seen that phenomenon happen on maps of all sizes, except the tiniest (the likes of Urgaia).

the main problem with big maps is that you can cast summon trolls e.g. 5 - 10 times but then you will be at your upkeeplimit and you have much less flexibility than anyone who has summons which need no upkeep . they can spend the money on castles , pd , additional mages , whatever they like .(Hmmm, additional mages with no upkeep, you mean?)

There's some logic in what you say, but you're missing a very important point: Trolls are (reasonably) powerful mid-level summons. The upkeep-free summons you can get at the time Trolls become available either aren't as powerful, or as durable, or as easily available (eg, Draconians may not be available because you need your air gems for other things - a common case). Sure you can wait for upkeep-free summons which are as powerful as Trolls or better, but in the meantime the players who chose to invest in Trolls while you didn't will get an edge over you. And if that edge translates in extra provinces, sites, income, whatever, that more than covers the initial cost and upkeep of these Trolls (IOW, if these Trolls are paying for themselves), then you're already at a disadvantage you may never negate.

i still don't see what makes trolls / sea trolls so special compared to all other magic summons that they are the only ones who need horrible upkeep .Lots of things I enumerated several times (to no avail it seems), so I'll only list the most important points.

They're available early, need only a level 3 mage to summon, and are flexible in their summoning, allowing you to save on gems or on mage time, depending on your priorities.

They're very resilient to virtually every form of attack, due to the combination of regen, high HPs, and MR.

They don't eat and are strong, and that make them extremely well suited to sieges, particularly in remote or desolate areas where supplies are a problem. For the same reason they're also great for castle defense (actually my main use for Trolls is as fortress crackers - even if they don't participate in the final showdown, instead I often prefer to relocate them to the next enemy fortress while my other troops storm the place).

Sea Trolls are OFC natural amphibians and great for sieging underwater fortresses.

so in the long run building clams is most likely always better than summoning the trolls.It's surely better than summoning Trolls you'll leave idling in your castle. Otherwise a dozen clams won't save you when your neighbour's Trolls will knock at your door.

the upkeep is really prohibitive for them .Not for them, not for me. It's only prohibitive for you.

every nation that doesn't need trolls / sea trolls but can summon death / nature ... creatures has this creatures + troops / mages worth 60 upkeep and so they always win against the trolls .Win what? A virtual war of relative costs? It has little meaning on the battlefield. Whoever has the strongest army wins (usually). If reinforcing my army means summonning Trolls, I sure wouldn't pass on it.

i think atlantis would be much more played if the sea trolls would cost no upkeep but loose their ability to get 1 watergem / turn . Well, I don't like Atlantis much, but certainly not for that reason.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Upkeep does not scale proportionally to ones own income for some players. I've witnessed strategies where allied players(hotseat) would never exceed X amount of gold upkeep [...]What I wrote is exactly Army sizes tend to scale proportionnally to empires sizes, and thus your upkeep tend to scale proportionally to your incomeNotice the use of the verb tend? It's a general rule. And you're trying to refute that with atypical examples where it isn't applicable because of players' choices. So basically your point is Trolls should be changed because of special rules or alliances you use only on XL maps? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow.

NTJedi

July 15th, 2004, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
They're available early, need only a level 3 mage to summon, and are flexible in their summoning, allowing you to save on gems or on mage time, depending on your priorities.
You need LEVEL_6 Conjuration... that's not early. Also Vine Ogres are ready at level_3 where it's possible to get 2 or more per gem... plus they don't have upkeep and won't retreat like Trolls. If you're looking for a better deal for a mass of units all at once it's the pale riders. The pale riders LEVEL_5 Enchantment, zero upkeep, cheaper per gem, won't flee like trolls, faster then trolls, and more resistances.

Also both vine ogres and longdead horsemen don't eat. So if you're popping out 10 trolls/per turn I could match this with at least 15 vine ogres/per turn. And on the other scale if you spend the 90 Earth GEMS for two troll kings and 30 trolls... I guarantee a matching 90 death gems for 180 longdead riders and possible to get over 200 longdead riders would cause LOTS more damage... unless your opponent has over a dozen priests waiting.

Also more importantly even if you do have lots of successful armies of trolls... the upkeep will hurt even after 10 turns it's 600 gold for just 15 Trolls. The longdead riders and ogre vines cost nothing and won't retreat either.

[ July 15, 2004, 01:45: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

NTJedi

July 15th, 2004, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So basically your point is Trolls should be changed because of special rules or alliances you use only on XL maps? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow. That's not what I've been writing... my point is that trolls have an upkeep which doesn't match their true value.

Lets say I give you 100 Trolls during the start of a game... and I start with 100 Vine Ogres. I didn't even include the bonus I could get from the vine crown. Now keep in mind your Trolls are LEVEL_6 Conjuration and mine are only Level_3. If you eventually meet on day 10 for battle... you have spent almost $4000 gold on upkeep(3 died). I had an extra $4000 gold to spend on well you name it. Then your 97 Trolls fight my 97 Vine Ogres... you're trolls will almost always lose because the trolls eventually retreat and/or the $4000 gold allowed me to arrive with 5 times as many commanders you had thus more spells helping me and hurting your army.

Norfleet

July 15th, 2004, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
Lets say I give you 100 Trolls during the start of a game... and I start with 100 Vine Ogres. I didn't even include the bonus I could get from the vine crown. Now keep in mind your Trolls are LEVEL_6 Conjuration and mine are only Level_3. If you eventually meet on day 10 for battle... you have spent almost $4000 gold on upkeep(3 died).While I agree that troll upkeep is greatly overpriced and strongly discourages the use of trolls, I think the point you're missing here is that trolls cannot be used like Vine Ogres!

Building up a massive hoard of vine ogres is a perfectly serviceable deal, since Vine Ogres cost nothing: Trolls, however, cannot be used in such a manner. Trolls are best lobbed at the enemy in suicide assaults that hopefully take ground, or at least distract your enemies, generally because they came as byproduct of the King summonings, and you want the king, not the trolls. Kings good, trolls bad.

NTJedi

July 15th, 2004, 04:59 AM

Yes I agree, the Kings are definitely good... especially the Sea Troll King.

VALENT

July 15th, 2004, 09:13 AM

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif a small question : does the upkeep is important to play? i mean i have seen that every time i recruit units the upkeep is a little biger ( iam french and my english is not very good!!!). does i have to take care to recruit not too much units because i cannot have food?if i take some independants province i can recruit units? is that a relation between provinces,upkeep
and recruit army? what can i se this relation?
i try to understand your discussion about troll and draconian , what is the best and easy to resume for a beginner? What is the best summon for the beginner in the Ulm ( earth)
someone can help (nagot) , please?
thinks
phil

Sheap

July 15th, 2004, 09:36 AM

Food and upkeep are different. Most units need food, which is called "supplies." This is calculated individually for each province. Each province has a number of supplies in it, which might be modified by growth or death scale, the size of the population and where the nearest friendly castle is. Some units don't need supplies (undead and trolls, and some summoned creatures) and some actually produce supplies. If there are more troops than supplies in the province, they starve. Starving units lose morale and get afflictions and diseases.

Upkeep is different. Upkeep is measured in gold, and it is calculated based on your whole empire. Every unit requires upkeep equal to 1/15 of its initial cost, or 1/30 of its cost if it is sacred. Most summoned units don't have any upkeep, but some (including trolls) do have upkeep. Trolls have lots of upkeep.

Rainbow

July 15th, 2004, 10:09 AM

Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">
Sz HP Prt Mor Mr Enc Str Att Def Pre MV
Vine Ogre 3 53 5 50 5 0 18 12 3 0 2/12
SA: 100 PR, NNE, Mless, Frst Srvl

Troll 3 35 14 14 14 3 22 10 9 8 2/13
SA: Regen (4), -25 FR, NNE, Mtn Srvl</pre><hr /></blockquote>As I recall, trolls use two-handed mauls, and vine ogres use fists. It's going to hurt, bad. Hurts just thinking about it.

/Rainbow

Stormbinder

July 15th, 2004, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Rainbow:
Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.

Yes, Trolls are certanly stronger than Tree Ogres in equal numbers, no doubt about that. For somebody made out of wood, Tree Ogres have surprisingly thin skin, and there rest of their stats, other than hitpoints, are also unimpressive. They are very good meatshield that do not rout, but not much more.

Boron

July 15th, 2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Rainbow:
Ahem. Vine ogres against an equal number of trolls, and the trolls will break? I don't think so. More likely, the trolls will mow down the vine ogres and suffer close to zero casualties in the process.
As I recall, trolls use two-handed mauls, and vine ogres use fists. It's going to hurt, bad. Hurts just thinking about it.

/Rainbow 100 trolls vs 100 vine ogres will win mostly yeah right . but as NTJedi and i said 100 trolls cost 400 upkeep . if you say everything is equal , you and your oppenent have about the same number of provinces and income and gemincome then your opponent can afford 40 150 gold cost mages or 20 300 gold cost mages for the 400 upkeep you pay for your 100 trolls .
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?

Originally posted by Norfleet:
While I agree that troll upkeep is greatly overpriced and strongly discourages the use of trolls, I think the point you're missing here is that trolls cannot be used like Vine Ogres!

Building up a massive hoard of vine ogres is a perfectly serviceable deal, since Vine Ogres cost nothing: Trolls, however, cannot be used in such a manner. Trolls are best lobbed at the enemy in suicide assaults that hopefully take ground, or at least distract your enemies, generally because they came as byproduct of the King summonings, and you want the king, not the trolls. Kings good, trolls bad . [/QB]yep the kings themselves are quite useful . unfortunately they cost upkeep but for the special abilities you get from them ( especially the sea king ) their upkeep is reasonable .
the problem is that you can't summon a troll / sea troll king alone . you always get the in the long run unwanted trolls too .
the nettocost of a troll king is 30 gems .
if you already have earthmages ( e.g. ulm ) there is no need for a troll king .
a troll king has only earth 3 , costs 10 upkeep and 30 gems . a lamia queen is a much greater mage , costs only 15 gems and is the same conjuration level .

conclusion : the trolls / troll kings are almost useless the only reason why you perhaps summon 1-2 is if you want to ensure that you get decent earth magic item forgers .

the sea trolls / sea troll kings are a bit different because they are of greater use .
the sea trolls enable you to fight underwater .
the sea troll king has the unique ability to produce gems as non unique summon.
so for the sea troll kings i agree finally with Nagot Gick Fel that they but only they need upkeep costs but for a different reason .
if they would not need upkeep you could hord them . they produce water gems themselves and are water 3 mages . so after 45 turns you got repaid your summon costs . and you could forge hordes of clams with them with their own water gem income .

so either let the troll kings too generate 1 earthgem / turn or make them upkeepfree.

tinkthank

July 15th, 2004, 11:19 AM

I think that the way their upkeep is set now, things are pretty darn good.
I think Zen got it right the first time: /Summoned Units With Upkeep [e.g. Trolls]/ are good in many situations but not perfect for all.
Let's not go about nerfing this and boosting that just because of a particular style.
We all *want* the fully automatic buckshot laser-guided neutron plasma uzi with the self-regenerating 80gig clip, but that would make the game a lot less sexy as everyone would just go out and get one.

Norfleet

July 15th, 2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Boron:
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?I don't think this is really fair, since you've ignored the recruitment cost of the mages in question, which, over a short duration of time, makes up a significant fraction of the cost. Plus, the level of pummelling inflicted by 33 mystics varies from immense to irrelevant, depending on the level of research with which you're making this comparison.

Boron

July 15th, 2004, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Boron:
so if i field 100 vine ogres + 33 mystics or astrologists (= upkeep of 400 ) versus your 100 trolls guess who wins ?I don't think this is really fair, since you've ignored the recruitment cost of the mages in question, which, over a short duration of time, makes up a significant fraction of the cost. Plus, the level of pummelling inflicted by 33 mystics varies from immense to irrelevant, depending on the level of research with which you're making this comparison. <hr /></blockquote>that are some good points . arco is a bad example since it's hard for them to summon mass vine ogres .
but if you reach conjuration 6 to summon trolls your opponents which summon vine ogres e.g. have most likely reached conjuration 3 meanwhile + at least to lvl 3-4 in either evocation / alteration or traumaturgy where their short run most useful combat spells are .
so the mages can do pretty amounts of damage .
but my neglecting of the recruit costs was a fault for normal maps that's totally true .
but it's not too hazardous i think if i say you can have at least 5 combat mages for the saved upkeep with your vine ogres then .
so they will be at least a difficult opponent to the trolls but more likely even win .

finally i say it once more since it was mostly ignored in my previous statements my thoughts are primarily for the faerun map .
on the other maps like aran / desert eye the upkeep aspects / long run aspects are quite negligible but on faerun you surely will beat some of your close neighbors but if you keep to that tactic for lategame it is a burden for you .

if you can manage to kill the trolls in suicide attacks after 5-10 turns but keep your troll kings it's most likely ok but if you keep them longer you will notice your unneeded additional upkeep badly .

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Boron:
if you can manage to kill the trolls in suicide attacks after 5-10 turns but keep your troll kings it's most likely ok but if you keep them longer you will notice your unneeded additional upkeep badly . Hmmm, Sea Trolls cost 50, regular Trolls cost 60. That's about the price of a Knight - eg, 60 for Man, 70 for Ulm. Compared to the Trolls, the knights' upkeep are similar or slightly higher.

So from what you say I have to conclude you either don't recruit knights when one of these nations, or if you do you try to suicide them at the first opportunity.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
You need LEVEL_6 Conjuration... that's not early.OK, that's not very early. But as I've told before, Trolls are a midgame summon, and one of their benefits is they are usually available earlier than most upkeep-free summon which are equivalent in power.

Also Vine Ogres are ready at level_3 where it's possible to get 2 or more per gem... plus they don't have upkeep and won't retreat like Trolls.I think Vine Ogres are plain OK for their casting requirements. But they suffer from a few liabilities the Trolls don't have. Anyway that kind of comparisons is somewhat pointless: if I have nature gems and nature mages, I'll use Vine Ogres. If I have water gems and water mages I'll summon Sea Trolls. If I have death gems and necromancers I'll enchant Pale Riders. You have to do with what is available to you.

If you're looking for a better deal for a mass of units all at once it's the pale riders. The pale riders LEVEL_5 Enchantment, zero upkeep, cheaper per gem, won't flee like trolls, faster then trolls, and more resistances.Same remark as above. I don't agree with the 'LH have more resistances', OFC. Both Trolls have 4 more MR and can't be banished. Sea Trolls and LHs have the same elemental resistances. Regular Trolls haven't poison resistance and are fire susceptible, anyway you won't kill Trolls thru poison alone because of their regen, and it's still easier to kill masses of LHs with fire spells than a single Troll. Even Incinerate will leave him with some HPs left.

Also both vine ogres and longdead horsemen don't eat. So if you're popping out 10 trolls/per turn I could match this with at least 15 vine ogres/per turn.And with what will you match my own Vine Ogres? I don't use Trolls as a replacement to something else I could otherwise summon. I use them when they're available and have the gems and mages to summon them, and when these mages haven't anything better to do. I think I emphasized this enough, I hope it's crystal clear now.

unless your opponent has over a dozen priests waiting.Yep, being mindless or undead is sometimes a liability, but there's no obvious way to kill a Troll.

Also more importantly even if you do have lots of successful armies of trolls... the upkeep will hurt even after 10 turns it's 600 gold for just 15 Trolls. The longdead riders and ogre vines cost nothing and won't retreat either. Rout is preferable to dissolution. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

So far it seems your only gripe against Trolls is their upkeep, not their stats. So I guess you don't recruit anything but mages once you have access to upkeep-free summons?

[ July 15, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by NTJedi:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So basically your point is Trolls should be changed because of special rules or alliances you use only on XL maps? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow. That's not what I've been writing... my point is that trolls have an upkeep which doesn't match their true value.<hr /></blockquote>Well, more precisely the point we were discussing here was that you though Trolls are OK on small maps but a burden on XL maps due to their upkeep - which is also true of many expensive national troops, BTW - Jotuns, knights, Minotaurs, you name it.

Anyway I give up - let's say you won that one round. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Norfleet

July 15th, 2004, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Rout is preferable to dissolution. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Not when it comes to Trolls. If Trolls rout, they're now scattered across 4 or 5 provinces and have to be laboriously rounded up, or abandoned. Either way, you lose a lot of upkeep.

If they're slaughtered to the Last, you get to keep the king, and stop paying the upkeep on the trolls.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Rout is preferable to dissolution. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Not when it comes to Trolls. If Trolls rout, they're now scattered across 4 or 5 provinces and have to be laboriously rounded up,<hr /></blockquote>These 4 or 5 province could be only 1 or 2.

3 would be a more common figure. No big deal, really.

or abandoned. Either way, you lose a lot of upkeep.That's a gross exageration. You lose a few upkeep. And you save on the gems and mage time the Vine Ogres Users will have to spend to summon replacements for their dissolved Vine army.

Norfleet

July 15th, 2004, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
That's a gross exageration. You lose a few upkeep. And you save on the gems and mage time the Vine Ogres Users will have to spend to summon replacements for their dissolved Vine army. Yes, but you see, it's a GOOD thing for the trolls to die off. Once enough of them die, you can afford to summon another Sea King's Court, abuse the trolls, and keep the Sea King to generate gems in perpetuity. Win/win.

Graeme Dice

July 15th, 2004, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So from what you say I have to conclude you either don't recruit knights when one of these nations, or if you do you try to suicide them at the first opportunity. I usually don't bother to recruit very many knights, as they do tend to be overly expensive for the combat ability they give you. I also don't spend water and earth gems to recruit knights. The problem is that you pay gems for them, then continue to pay for them in gold, which means that in many cases you would have been better off to have used your gems for something else.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 15th, 2004, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Yes, but you see, it's a GOOD thing for the trolls to die off.Well, as long as they bring more than their own worth of enemy troops to Hell with them, I've no problem with that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Boron

July 15th, 2004, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
So from what you say I have to conclude you either don't recruit knights when one of these nations, or if you do you try to suicide them at the first opportunity. I usually don't bother to recruit very many knights, as they do tend to be overly expensive for the combat ability they give you. I also don't spend water and earth gems to recruit knights. The problem is that you pay gems for them, then continue to pay for them in gold, which means that in many cases you would have been better off to have used your gems for something else. <hr /></blockquote>my opinion too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
in the early game special knights like the knights of the chalice are worth it if they are enchanted through good blessings . but sometime in midgame there will come a point were they are more and more useless . but since conj 6 is not early game but most likely midgame you most likely prefer to switch to upkeepfree troops .

the sea troll kings + troll kings are nice but especially the trolls are a unwanted coproduct .
while a knight of the chalice is very useful for 30-40 turns or so you can't summon a troll in the first 10-30 turns depending on research ... and so it is only useful for a quite short time .

but still i think i have to agree with nagot and zen partially because at conj6 it is hard to find any as powerful summons where you only need 1 mage to summon them and get a quite useful result. the only similiar spell at this levels is summon draconians .

i still don't like their upkeep but if they were without upkeep they were perhaps to powerful for the level at which you get them .