OberFuhrer, the Hobourg Special Hero!!!

[Cohen]

I've seen this hero for the first time in a game.
It's like a Solaris or Satina.

He's a Hobourg with those stats, if someone wants to put him as special hero in the Hobourg Nation:

7 HitPoints, size 1.
Morale 10
Base Encumbrance 4
MR 14
Str 7
Att 14
Def 17
Precision 10
OkLeader (25)

He's equipped with Black Steel Helmet and Full Plate.
Astral Serpent and Bracer of Defence.
Boots of the Messenger

AND an unique item obtainable only via wish:

Shortsword (not so short however)
2 handed weapon
12 Damage, *3 vs larger beings.
3 Att
4 Defence
2 Lenght

This weapon adds too and Air Shield (80).

[HotNifeThruButr]

I've seen him too, tough little bugger.

What exactly does Oberfuhrer mean? I know ober means over, or superior... I think. Is it German?

[Tuna-Fish]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I've seen him too, tough little bugger.

What exactly does Oberfuhrer mean? I know ober means over, or superior... I think. Is it German? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Fuhrer, or führer, means simply "leader", so Oberfuhrer would be a superleader or leader of leaders or something. The word fuhrer does have a rather nasty ring though, due to a certain german who denounced existing titles and just wanted his people to call him "the leader".

[PvK]

That's hilarious, especially the 2-handed shortsword that does triple damage to larger targets! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PvK

[Boron]

wasn't the hoburgmod from illwinter themselves ?

nasty . either they don't know how bad this meaning really is or they have a very strange humor or worst case they are nazis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

an explantion for the people who don't understand german / or have no historic knowlegde of 1933-1945 .
tuna-fish meant that hitler himself called him führer .
but if i remember right there was also SS-ranks like sturmgruppenführer , obersturmgruppenführer ...

so a really really stupid and bad choice for naming a hero .
if illwinter really has developed that mod themselves cause the description "This mod replaces Ulm with the Hoburg Alliance. It is mainly an example of how modding works. Feel free to modify this mod" suggests this they should remove this hero immediately because it is nothing but total crude .

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
wasn't the hoburgmod from illwinter themselves ?<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The original Version is. The special edition Version is fan-made.

[Cohen]

I was not talking about a mod.

I find it in an MP game in and Indep province with Hobourgs!

[Sheap]

I do not think it is necessary to get too worked up about this. It is only a word in German, just happens to be a word that a lot of people have heard in a bad context. It isn't synonymous with Hitler or Nazism or anything like that.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Boron:
wasn't the hoburgmod from illwinter themselves ?

nasty . either they don't know how bad this meaning really is or they have a very strange humor or worst case they are nazis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

an explantion for the people who don't understand german / or have no historic knowlegde of 1933-1945 .
tuna-fish meant that hitler himself called him führer .
but if i remember right there was also SS-ranks like sturmgruppenführer , obersturmgruppenführer ...

so a really really stupid and bad choice for naming a hero .
if illwinter really has developed that mod themselves cause the description "This mod replaces Ulm with the Hoburg Alliance. It is mainly an example of how modding works. Feel free to modify this mod" suggests this they should remove this hero immediately because it is nothing but total crude . <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">First - the Hoburg mod makes Hoburgs into a human playable nation. Even without the mod, you should have noticed that hoburg provinces show up. And occasionally this 'oberfuhrer'.

Second - if 'fuhrer' is simply the German word for leader, it's stupid to say "oh, we need to ban it!". By your logic, you shouldn't have said the word 'hitler'. And we shouldn't ever use the word 'president', because that's what Bush has declared himself to be.

Oh, and the "Iron Pigs" spell has to be changed, because some people have been called pigs and are bothered by the word.

Then, Dominions2 should be Banned, because there's a lot of people (Christian, Muslem, Jewish, etc) who would take great offense at a game in which people have the goal of becoming God. Hell, I've seen people attempt to ban Dungeons and Dragons, both because there were devils in it, and because there was witchcraft (spells), and because there was idolatry (characters worshiping deities).

Yes, what Hitler did was horrible. But no more so than what Stalin did, or Pol Pot, or the government of the USA in the 1800s.

If a word offends you - deal with it.

And consider it the opportunity to kill the Oberfuhrer if you ever run across it in the game.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Most of the Hoburg names are silly.
Obstfreund means fruit friend.

The word führer itself has a very strong association with world war 2 and rarely used in its original meaning. You will find it however in combination with various other terms, like Lokführer as the guy who drives a train, or bergführer as the one who leads you trough the mountains

[johan osterman]

Originally posted by Boron:
... or worst case they are nazis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We all have tiny moustaches and polished boots. Prior to becoming a teacher Kristoffer wanted to become an architect. Ever so often we march down Malmoes streets alongside General Ludendorf and stage a coup d'etat.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Boron:
... or worst case they are nazis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

... <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We all have tiny moustaches and polished boots. Prior to becoming a teacher Kristoffer wanted to become an architect. Ever so often we march down Malmoes streets alongside General Ludendorf and stage a coup d'etat. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good thing y'all do have a sense of humor, as many people would have been tremendously insulted by someone suggesting that they might be nazis.

[Sly Frog]

Look, oberfuhrer itself is an actual German word for an army rank, meaning something akin to a senior colonel in the U.S. army. It has nothing to do with Hitler or anything else, other than the base word fuhrer. Suggesting otherwise is akin to saying that "dictation machine" is funny because it shares a root with dictator.

[vigabrand]

I find it interesting that some people take offense to a fictional character's name because it has a certain german title in it, but at the same time play a game that has blood slaves who are sacrificed, can summon demons and devils in it, and can cast spells that destroy or hurt thousands upon thousands of people (albeit fictional). Chill out, it's just a game. BTW doesn't Sturmbanfuhrer mean sergeant in german? I think the title is used in different ways and doesn't need to be associated with evil in every sense.

It's actually a Brigadier General.

A Lieutentant Colonel is a Obersturmbannfuhrer.

Edit: Misread the Senior Part of Colonel, Slyfrog.

Also interesting note: The actual term for the Fuhrer (Adolf Hitler) would be Oberste Fuhrer in Wemacht and in SS rank was Der oberste Fuhrer der Schutzstaffel. Der Fuhrer Adolf Hitler.

If you see a Hoburg named that, maybe you'd have a point.

[ July 13, 2004, 21:02: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Norfleet]

Shouldn't this discussion be over already, based on some invocation of some important Internet law whose name eludes me?

[Pirateiam]

What astonished me after traveling in Germany is the laws against any Nazi insignias (a good example is the flag) even if it is done in a teaching or historical presentation. Correct me if I am wrong but is it not illegal in Germany to have even the Nazi flag in a game? From working on a Hearts of Iron (Paradox)Mod I remember that the game did not come with a Nazi flag because of this law. Now I understand that it could be offensive towards some people. Hell I lost two Uncles in that damned war fighting Germany but is it not riskier to close our eyes to history. If we deny the truths of history and hide from it you know damned well that we will repeat it! In fact I think we are on the road already. Embrace histrory for its good and evil, look at it in the eye and learn or before long it will stab us in the back!

[HotNifeThruButr]

I've read somewhere that the Swastika (sp?) used to be a symbol for protection. Now, it's a sign for racism and hate.

I'm sure many symbols' and words' meanings were changed throughout history because some bastard got his hands on 'em.

[Cohen]

This post was only to info the community about this hobourg!
Not a discussion about the terms used to call him nor I've anything against a word of the german vocabulary.

[Skolem]

Originally posted by HotNifeThruButr:
I've read somewhere that the Swastika (sp?) used to be a symbol for protection. Now, it's a sign for racism and hate.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually it isn't The nazy Symbol is just the inverse of the Swastika. Although it is just a theoritical point of view I would never drow a swatika because I fear most people wouldn't see the difference.
As for the discussion, every use of "Führer" in an modern context might be clear, it is use in many german tales and myth, because it wasen't mark, so from this point of view and remembering that dominions is a Myth/Fantasy Game it wouldn't be so choking to see a "Führer" here, as it would mean something completely different.
I think we should relativize the word and replace them in their context.
Skolem

Originally posted by Cohen:
This post was only to info the community about this hobourg!
Not a discussion about the terms used to call him nor I've anything against a word of the german vocabulary. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He has been in the game for quite some time, along with his sword. If people did not know of him I don't think it's suddenly going to make a difference that they do now. If only he would appear with Bogus type events and 3 other hoburg friends on a quest to Mordor as an event, would he start to take on a dynamic.

Edit: Added Hoburg friends.

[ July 13, 2004, 21:47: Message edited by: Zen ]

[HotNifeThruButr]

Zen's got 10 dominion on me.

ZEN IS GOD!

[ July 13, 2004, 22:07: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]

[Cohen]

Probably I've an older Item Ref because the Shortsword wasn't mentioned there, so I thought it was a very rare character and I met him ...

I hoped to do something useful with this post, not to start this discussion ...

[The_Tauren13]

yeah i like how it completely digressed into a history/language lesson

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by The_Tauren13:
yeah i like how it completely digressed into a history/language lesson <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you check back you will see that alot of the discussions about the nations and their names tended to do that. I think we have covered just about everything that was ever covered in my high-school and college history courses.

But then again, considering that the games themes were done by a Professor of Religion and Social Sciences maybe thats not so unusual.

[reverend]

Just a small correction...

Look, oberfuhrer itself is an actual German word for an army rank<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is not entirely correct. This rank, together with others like "Feldmarschall" (think Rommel), were abandoned after WW2. So, yes, as a German, I can say that the term "Oberführer" immediately rises associations with Nazi Germany.

On the other hand, I play WW2 flightsims with historical correct markings (even if it's illegal...), so I'm not offended by this. I can however understand, how other people can be.

So just accept the remark, that it is a poor choice for a unit name, and maybe consider leaving it out in Dom3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Chazar]

Being german, I can also understand that the hoburgs title will certainly irritate people in germany, including me a tiny bit, but I cant say actually why if I try to think about it...

I am no expert on this, but if I think of my own everyday speech, I would hardly say "Führer" but rather "Anführer". I cant tell the difference between those two, except that the latter has no negative meaning to it... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

[Boron]

Originally posted by Pirateiam:
What astonished me after traveling in Germany is the laws against any Nazi insignias (a good example is the flag) even if it is done in a teaching or historical presentation. Correct me if I am wrong but is it not illegal in Germany to have even the Nazi flag in a game? From working on a Hearts of Iron (Paradox)Mod I remember that the game did not come with a Nazi flag because of this law. Now I understand that it could be offensive towards some people. Hell I lost two Uncles in that damned war fighting Germany but is it not riskier to close our eyes to history. If we deny the truths of history and hide from it you know damned well that we will repeat it! In fact I think we are on the road already. Embrace histrory for its good and evil, look at it in the eye and learn or before long it will stab us in the back! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that's right if you e.g. possess such an old flag or an old ss uniform you go to prison in germany . but your conclusion is very wrong .
by even forbidding to only own such a sign germany does not close her eyes from history but wants to show the world that it is very aware of it .
our government just wants to guarantee by that that the really bad and evil nazi time is in no way glorified . but we are taught the history of the nazitime in history at school very accurate but with focus on the bad things that happened so that everybody can see what a big fault this was.

if illwinter would sell dominions in german stores it even could unfortunately happen by such a clumsy used word that it would be Banned in germany.
another law is that you may not see blood in fps shooters in german. you may import an english Version when you are over 18 but if you are under 18 you have to use the censored german Version . this laws are a bit ridiculous but they were made because of the context to avoid a new "3rd Reich" germany . perhaps they go to far but this won't change in germany for at least the next 20 years .
it has it good and bad sides .

but almost every german and natural german speaking person like somebody from austria or switzerland will understand oberführer only in nazicontext .
it was intended as a joke by illwinter but if they want to distribute dominions 3 regulary because of such a bad joke it could be forbidden in germany . c&c generals was e.g. forbidden because of that in germany .

i didn't want to start such a big discussion i wanted only to inform you that this word is one of the really few offensive words for every german.
if it is in return to castle wolfenstein e.g. it's something else because there it is funny but in a fantasy game it destroys a bit of the atmosphere.
it would be much cooler and absolutely bps-save if the hoburg special heros were named frodo beutlin .... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[reverend]

I thought the uncensored Version of RtCW was forbidden? (uncensored = not only blood, but also the original textures for swastikas).

While we're on it, another interesting tidbit for non-Europeans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif :
There are no license plates with SS, NS, KZ or HJ in Germany. Did I leave some out?


PS: Erstaunlich wieviele Deutsche bei so einem Thema aus der Versenkung gekrochen kommen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by reverend:
I thought the uncensored Version of RtCW was forbidden? (uncensored = not only blood, but also the original textures for swastikas).<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't imagine why...given that the objective of all the Wolfensteins has never been to glorify Nazis, but instead to caricature and parody them while blowing them away in ever-increasing numbers. There's a singular elegance to choosing Nazis to be your villains, since you won't get anyone complaining about your treatment of them in the game.

[ July 14, 2004, 19:26: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[Chazar]

Originally posted by reverend:

PS: Erstaunlich wieviele Deutsche bei so einem Thema aus der Versenkung gekrochen kommen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">(translates to: surprising how many germans reply to this topic.)

Sure! I myself just clicked the topic because I was irritated about the "Fuhrer"-title of the thread within the Dom2 context...

But I guess that the non-gemans have a point here: I cant help but feel ashamed when I read "Führer" somehow, although I'm much to young to be connected with that time! Hence it is sort of wrong to feel ashamed... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/confused.gif

I mean its quite the same with a lot of military stuff as well: I was quite surprised when I learnt of british student Groups exercising on warships over the weekends. Its a concept that would be unimaginable in germany today...

[Karacan]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I can't imagine why...given that the objective of all the Wolfensteins has never been to glorify Nazis, but instead to caricature and parody them while blowing them away in ever-increasing numbers. There's a singular elegance to choosing Nazis to be your villains, since you won't get anyone complaining about your treatment of them in the game. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The game Bloodrayne is completely Banned in Germany, since it's all about blood and Nazis - you're playing a half-vampire bringing down several Nazi-installations. It's a very satisfying game, and I for one find it rather sad that german "violent" videogame players are deprived of humanoid victims I for one have a hard time feeling some kind of remorse for. Good thing I have english native friends. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

However, I have to say that Oberführer in no way feels offensive to me, as I didn't associate it with anything Nazi-german at all - but perhaps that's because I grew up with Star Wars and Warhammer 40K...

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Karacan:
The game Bloodrayne is completely Banned in Germany, since it's all about blood and Nazis - you're playing a half-vampire bringing down several Nazi-installations. It's a very satisfying game, and I for one find it rather sad that german "violent" videogame players are deprived of humanoid victims I for one have a hard time feeling some kind of remorse for. Good thing I have english native friends. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I entirely blame this on the Allies. After the war, it seems a campaign of systematic spinectomy was performed upon the German people. This is truly sad and deplorable, and I personally find it to be reprehensible. I feel for you. I really do. How awful it must be, to be filled with this distaste for Nazism, yet be unable to blow them away in video games.

[PrinzMegaherz]

I entirely blame this on the Allies. After the war, it seems a campaign of systematic spinectomy was performed upon the German people. This is truly sad and deplorable, and I personally find it to be reprehensible. I feel for you. I really do. How awful it must be, to be filled with this distaste for Nazism, yet be unable to blow them away in video games. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Finally someone who understands my feelings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif . Seriously, you would not believe what strange ideas game developers have to make their games match german laws. In the old C&C games all human soldiers were exchanged with androids and red blood became black oil. In case of RTCW you actually fight the order of the wulf or something like that.

Ah, by the way, did I mention that killed enemies/hostages in CS dont die, they just sit down and stay there for the rest of the round? Jesus!

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Karacan:
The game Bloodrayne is completely Banned in Germany, since it's all about blood and Nazis - you're playing a half-vampire bringing down several Nazi-installations. It's a very satisfying game, and I for one find it rather sad that german "violent" videogame players are deprived of humanoid victims I for one have a hard time feeling some kind of remorse for. Good thing I have english native friends. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I entirely blame this on the Allies. After the war, it seems a campaign of systematic spinectomy was performed upon the German people. This is truly sad and deplorable, and I personally find it to be reprehensible. I feel for you. I really do. How awful it must be, to be filled with this distaste for Nazism, yet be unable to blow them away in video games. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not sure you can blame it on the Allies, given that Japan didn't wind up the same way.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Not sure you can blame it on the Allies, given that Japan didn't wind up the same way. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but the Japanese were pretty crazy to begin with, and acquired their own share of neuroses from this, like that entire annihilation fetish they have going, undoubtedly a psychological scar from being nuked.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Not sure you can blame it on the Allies, given that Japan didn't wind up the same way.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">not to forget italy , finland , bulgaria ... .
but the most important point is that 1. none of these did as evil war crimes as germany and
2. none of these nations had decent enough techs to be a real threat .

they were all unimportant secondary war theatres , even japan . if the usa hadn't had to defeat germany first because there was the threat they get an atom bomb too the pacific war would have been over most likely 1943 or so already .

[HotNifeThruButr]

I guess if I were the German government, I'd want to send a clear, strong message to the world saying "WE ARE NOT NAZIS, NOR DO WE WANT TO BECOME THEM OR LIKE THEM IN ANY WAY."

So they ban such Nazi related things to make a statement to the world. This just happens to damage the video game community, but the chances of someone in the German government being involved with video games is pretty slim. For the blood thing, well, it was also a stereotype (which I've heard somewhere, not as big as the racist stereotype, but it's also there) that all Germans were crazy warmongers, especially because *some* people think their language is scary sounding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Note that the above aren't my opinions, I'm only the messenger.

[Cohen]

Personally I've even nothing against a FeldMarshall or such other terms.

They were military rank ... even if related to a movement and ideology that is seen in negative way, but they're words ... a simple work to recognize something.

[tinkthank]

Hee hee yes.

While it was silly of whomever it was to believe that because Illwinter may have installed a commander named "Oberführer" that they shared sympathy with national socialism of the pre-war German bent, it is not incorrect to mention that certain words (including singular termini) have become bound up, in certain contexts, with other meaning.

(I happen to be an analytic philosopher (philosophy of language), and recently wrote a book on singular terms and their meanings: the shameless plug to the amazon link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3826022688/qid=1089807598/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/302-0247498-8776835)
-- it is written in German however.)

(Edit: removed a ridiculous half-phrase typo here)

Thus many people may (rightly) be worried by the (otherwise unqualified) placement of a character named "Oberführer" in a game. Not that the placement here indicates anything of the sort -- far from it. But it is equally silly to maintain that any "usage" of any word should be Banned: I know I shouldnt be saying this, but "words" don't have "meanings", *utterances of signs* can have "meanings" (the word meaning itself is very complicated, as you can imagine; there was a pretty crappy book called "The Meaning of Meaning" written by Osgood and Richards, which has since been commented on muchly, most famously by Hilary Putnam in his article "The Meaning of the Meaning of Meaning" (this is not a joke)) *when used as speech acts*. (I can hear Norfleet yelling "guns don't kill people, people kill people!" at me in the background.)

But don't we all secretly wear little black trenchcoats and black boots and those tiny moustaches and hide in the ... oh wait, sorry, forget that.

[ July 14, 2004, 12:30: Message edited by: tinkthank ]

[PrinzMegaherz]

Personally I've even nothing against a FeldMarshall or such other terms. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, Feldmarshall is no word associated with WW2 (at least not in germany). Words with a negativ association are Sturm and Führer. The modern german army has no rank including one of these words (although there some functions still using the word führer)

[Karacan]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
I feel for you. I really do. How awful it must be, to be filled with this distaste for Nazism, yet be unable to blow them away in video games. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't mock! That only leaves americans and french as my prefered shoot-em-up humanoid targets, and there's only so many games to play for that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Karacan:
Don't mock! That only leaves americans and french as my prefered shoot-em-up humanoid targets, and there's only so many games to play for that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I'm being genuinely sympathetic in something that is otherwise rare for me, so I understand your confusion. If you think about it hard enough, though, you'll realize that it's not quite so uncharacteristic of me here after all.

The truly depressing thing is that the taint has gone international. Just look at how hard it is to find a game where you can kill children, because it wouldn't be allowed in Germany. Argh. And the little buggers are always so annoying, too, like it's somehow more wrong to kill children, which are much more easily produced, than adults. Besides, isn't that the entire point of video games?

[Karacan]

But the Predator says that there is no honor in killing children. Unless they are equipped with laser-rifles and shotguns.

They might serve as troll-supplies, though, to preserve my stone-gardens.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Karacan:
But the Predator says that there is no honor in killing children. Unless they are equipped with laser-rifles and shotguns.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is not exactly an uncommon occurrence where I live, for shotguns, anyway. Children are fairly useless until they can wield shotguns, or at least man turrets, anyway.

[Soapyfrog]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
This is not exactly an uncommon occurrence where I live, for shotguns, anyway. Children are fairly useless until they can wield shotguns, or at least man turrets, anyway. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah Car wars, how I miss thee! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Soapyfrog]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
This is not exactly an uncommon occurrence where I live, for shotguns, anyway. Children are fairly useless until they can wield shotguns, or at least man turrets, anyway. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah Car Wars, how I miss thee! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
Ah Car Wars, how I miss thee! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not know of this Car Wars of which you speak. Is it anything like Star Wars?

[Demosthenes]

Apparently Steve Jackson Games is still publishing some new Version of the classic Car Wars. But they've streamlined it and made it purely tactical.

Oh the joys of perusing Uncle Al's weapon catalog, shopping for roof mounted turrets and rocket pods. Those were the days.

The classic C64 Autoduel was sweet too.

EDIT: Sorry for taking this even further OT, but the topic has been played out mefinks.

[ July 16, 2004, 21:16: Message edited by: Demosthenes ]

[Gandalf Parker]

Really? Im go have to look into that. I really miss Car Wars. I even daydreamed of decking out my car with a turret, cannon, some side-mount machine guns (all props of course). Of course that was a long time ago. Nowadays they better be real or dont bother putting them on at all.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Boron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Cainehill:
Not sure you can blame it on the Allies, given that Japan didn't wind up the same way.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">not to forget italy , finland , bulgaria ... .
but the most important point is that 1. none of these did as evil war crimes as germany and
2. none of these nations had decent enough techs to be a real threat .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You haven't studied your 20th century history if you think that Japan didn't commit war crimes just as evil as Germany's. The fact that it was mostly against the Chinese, Koreans, Russians and Philipines simply means that it didn't get the publicity Germany's did in the Western world.

Also I find it odd that you put Finland in the same Category as Germany, Italy, and Japan - heck, France did more to help Germany than Finland did.

[PrinzMegaherz]

You haven't studied your 20th century history if you think that Japan didn't commit war crimes just as evil as Germany's. The fact that it was mostly against the Chinese, Koreans, Russians and Philipines simply means that it didn't get the publicity Germany's did in the Western world.

Also I find it odd that you put Finland in the same Category as Germany, Italy, and Japan - heck, France did more to help Germany than Finland did. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not to forget the war crimes commited by England and Amerika.

Even though the winners write history, Hiroshima was and is a warcrime.

After germany had surrendered, brittish bomber squads wiped out the whole city of Dresden, killing about 202.040 civilians, mostly women and children in the process, without reason. The war was already over.

Edit
Funny Note: Most of the english pilots have been told there was a chemical factory producing weapons of mass destruction in Dresden.

[ July 17, 2004, 08:07: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

[atul]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
Also I find it odd that you put Finland in the same Category as Germany, Italy, and Japan - heck, France did more to help Germany than Finland did. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, might have something to do with the fact that while France was under occupation Finland was fighting one of the Allies (Russia) alongside Axis. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Finland was originally given to Russia by Germany with that Ribbentrop (something like that) treaty that split eastern Europe between the two nations, so bar some volunteers Finland was pretty much alone in the first war (39-40) against Russia, IIRC. But as Germany opened the eastern front, in we went as allies (German troops were in charge for actions in northern Finland, actually) to our second war against Russia. When Finnish troops crossed pre-39 borders, at least GB declared war to them.

So I'd say Finland had a place in that list - not because it had a big impact but because of the side it took. And as to mentality as a nation, I'd think every nation has had to deal this thing in their own way. I know Finnish society is still affected, although not in a so visible way as German, and without knowing too much about Japan they even now have that 'self defence force' (don't know the correct term) instead of army.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Really? Im go have to look into that. I really miss Car Wars.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Me too. Now that I think about it, maybe that's why I went to play Dominions? I miss my ol' tramplin' trailer truck so bad! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Demosthenes]

http://www.sjgames.com/car-wars/

[Demosthenes]

ARGH! [wtf]

[ July 17, 2004, 16:37: Message edited by: Demosthenes ]

[Mark the Merciful]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
Not to forget the war crimes commited by England and Amerika.

Even though the winners write history, Hiroshima was and is a warcrime.

After germany had surrendered, brittish bomber squads wiped out the whole city of Dresden, killing about 202.040 civilians, mostly women and children in the process, without reason. The war was already over.

Edit
Funny Note: Most of the english pilots have been told there was a chemical factory producing weapons of mass destruction in Dresden. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Come on, if you're going to make comments on historical issues, make some vague attempt to get your facts right.

Dresden was bombed on February 13th 1945, three months before the German surrender. Estimates of deaths are difficult to make for various reasons, but modern historians and researchers tend to range from approx 30,000 to 130,000. I've never seen a number over 200,000 except from Nazi propoganda and David Irving.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Cainehill:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Boron:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Cainehill:
Not sure you can blame it on the Allies, given that Japan didn't wind up the same way.<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">not to forget italy , finland , bulgaria ... .
but the most important point is that 1. none of these did as evil war crimes as germany and
2. none of these nations had decent enough techs to be a real threat .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You haven't studied your 20th century history if you think that Japan didn't commit war crimes just as evil as Germany's. The fact that it was mostly against the Chinese, Koreans, Russians and Philipines simply means that it didn't get the publicity Germany's did in the Western world.

Also I find it odd that you put Finland in the same Category as Germany, Italy, and Japan - heck, France did more to help Germany than Finland did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i just listed all axis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

yeah you are right japan did very evil warcrimes too but what i wanted to state why they weren't "weighted" as evil as the german ones although they of course were as evil as the german ones is the following reason :
japan could have never conquered the world the maximum what japan could have done would have been perhaps conquer greater parts of china and invade australia .
while germany had on the one hand fearful weopons : me 262 , panther , king tiger ...
and the most important fact : germany was close to develop an atom bomb too and that would really have been evil since hitler would have surely used it .
so german needed to be finished earlier .

to make a dominion comparision :
if you face ermor and pangenea CW you try to finish of first ermor since they are more dangerous . same with germany and japan in world war 2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Demosthenes]

Originally posted by Boron:
to make a dominion comparision :
if you face ermor and pangenea CW you try to finish of first ermor since they are more dangerous . same with germany and japan in world war 2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe Ulm and T'ien Chi would be better parallels. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[PrinzMegaherz]

Come on, if you're going to make comments on historical issues, make some vague attempt to get your facts right.

Dresden was bombed on February 13th 1945, three months before the German surrender. Estimates of deaths are difficult to make for various reasons, but modern historians and researchers tend to range from approx 30,000 to 130,000. I've never seen a number over 200,000 except from Nazi propoganda and David Irving. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hm, before I posted this, I checked some links for information about this topic. Although the were german weppages, I doubt that any of them had any nazi background.

there were 600.000 civilians inside the city, around 300.000 bombs were dropped, und you really want to tell me there were only 30.000 casualties?

And even 3 months before germany's surrender it was clear who would win the war.

Mark, I see that you live in london, and I dont want you to understand my posting as an personal affront against english people. But this was a war, and there are soldiers on every side who enjoy doing evil. Just think about the americans in Iraque. Even though most surely have good intentions, there are black sheeps, like those in the prison.

[Blitz]

Even though the winners write history, Hiroshima was and is a warcrime. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">K for the record I'm not american.

This is a classic example of rewriting history from the 21st centuty holier-than-thou hippie perspective. Couple of facts:

1) Japan started it.
2) Japan was prepared to defend the mainland to the Last man.

Given the choice of losing another god-knows-how-many americans (yeah france was gonna help, sure) in an invasion of Honshu, how can you blame them for doing what they did? It ended the war. A war the Japanese started. I'd be willing to listen to arguments that the second bomb wasn't really warranted... but give me a break. Nobody is gonna tell you war is pretty, but in the end, the responsibility for both atom bombs lies with the Japanese leaders who decided to commit their own war crime - Pearl Harbor.

[vigabrand]

Even after the second bomb was dropped, the Japanese military was still going to die to the Last man. It took intervention by the Emperor, kind of behind their backs to end the war. I recall hearing that some military hardliners tried a coup but it failed and the Emperor announced surrender, thus trumping the military. Less than a quarter of a million japanese died in those attacks, a lot less than would have died had we had to storm the beaches, and I'm not including american lives. Efforts were taken to minimize the enemy casualties, we could have dropped the bombs on Tokyo itself. It still almost didn't work. I don't recall any other countries condemning this at the time. Only decades later do the historical revisionists apply their wacked philosophies to the record. I think the decendents (and some actual living soldiers) of the soldiers who would have had to attack Japan would be offended by this nonsense. Just my two cents.

Vig

[Endoperez]

1) Japan started it.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What the fact that 'Japan started it' has to do with Hiroshima being or not being a war crime? Even if Hitler would have been mugged by a jew that would not make what he did any less evil or wrong, or minor a crime against humanity.

2) Japan was prepared to defend the mainland to the Last man.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't believe US and Japan would have lost more soldiers together than what died in bombs, but I don't know how powerful the bombs were *supposed* to be by the leaders of US. Maybe they thought that the less people would die in the bombs that would if a full war started.


Given the choice of losing another god-knows-how-many americans (yeah france was gonna help, sure) in an invasion of Honshu, how can you blame them for doing what they did? It ended the war. A war the Japanese started. I'd be willing to listen to arguments that the second bomb wasn't really warranted... but give me a break. Nobody is gonna tell you war is pretty, but in the end, the responsibility for both atom bombs lies with the Japanese leaders who decided to commit their own war crime - Pearl Harbor.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pearl Harbor for a surprise attack... I can see that being 'unfair', violating (unwritten?) rules of war, but I don't remember anything that would make it a 'war crime' in the same sense as the nuclear bombs. It was, after all, military equipment they destroyed, to which USA responded by bombing cities. There is difference between soldiers and civilians.

[vigabrand]

Um, Germany violated the rules of war by bombing civilians first. After that, all bets were off concerning the bombing of civilians. By allying themselves with Germany, Japan opened themselves up to the same thing. After the Battle of Britain, bombing civilian targets was acceptable, if distasteful (in the case of Dresden). There were no rules regarding super bombs, hell, we didn't even know how bad it was going to be. I don't know where this idea of warcrimes is coming from. The fact is, our elected leader decided to drop the bombs in a calculated effort to minimize casualites, and the rest of the allies didn't object, even after the fact if they didn't know it was going to happen. It worked and the horrible war was over. End of story.

Vig

[Sly Frog]

I just swallowed really hard and resisted my natural tendency to want to post and kick someone's ***.

Instead I ask for a lock down on this thread. It has reached a point of stupidity (I won't say which side I think has really reached it), and no longer has the slightest thing to do with Dominions.

[Mark the Merciful]

Originally posted by PrinzMegaherz:
Hm, before I posted this, I checked some links for information about this topic. Although the were german weppages, I doubt that any of them had any nazi background.

there were 600.000 civilians inside the city, around 300.000 bombs were dropped, und you really want to tell me there were only 30.000 casualties?

And even 3 months before germany's surrender it was clear who would win the war.

Mark, I see that you live in london, and I dont want you to understand my posting as an personal affront against english people. But this was a war, and there are soldiers on every side who enjoy doing evil. Just think about the americans in Iraque. Even though most surely have good intentions, there are black sheeps, like those in the prison. [/QB]<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't take offense at your statements that Hiroshima or Dresden were war-crimes. I strongly disagree, but you'll find plenty of people in this country who'll say the same thing so it's not a viewpoint that's new to me. What I did take strong offense at was your backing up your argument with outrageously exaggerated or invented "facts".

It's all very well to say that the war was obviously over in Feb 1945 (though there would still be hundreds of thousands of casualties on the battlefield between then and May). But what you wrote the first time was that Britain (actually it was Britain and the US) bombed Dresden after Germany had surrendered. It's hard to take your argument seriously when you back it up with a statement like that.

As for the casualty figure in Dresden; it's difficult for anybody to know. Thus the wide range of estimates. During the course of the entire war, the millions of German bombs dropped on Britain killed "only" 60,000 (or slightly over). A simplistic calculation based on that evidence would imply that an estimate of 30,000 for Dresden would be very high! But the estimates from historians who have researched the episodes have ranged as low as 30,000 based on far more information than either of us have to hand.

BTW my reference to Nazi Propoganda was to that of the time (1945), when the German government announced that over 200,000 had died; their "calculations" were based on falsification of the known records, by - for example - simply adding a zero to the number of bodies recorded as buried. The only historians who have taken that number seriously are apologists like David Irving.

[Blitz]

What the fact that 'Japan started it' has to do with Hiroshima being or not being a war crime? Even if Hitler would have been mugged by a jew that would not make what he did any less evil or wrong, or minor a crime against humanity. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is asinine. A better modern-day comparison would be "What do you think would happen if Israel decided to bomb a German military base tomorrow?". The end result of this unlikely scenario would be war, don't you think? And whose war crime would it be? Yes... the ones who started the fight.

I don't believe US and Japan would have lost more soldiers together than what died in bombs, but I don't know how powerful the bombs were *supposed* to be by the leaders of US. Maybe they thought that the less people would die in the bombs that would if a full war started. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right. I guess somehow WW2 dosen't qualify as "a full war" to some people. I imagine you are speaking of the invasion of the Japanese mainland when you suggest fewer casualties on both sides. Even if this were true, the atom bombs didn't result in any American casualties, and that was the idea. After you have been locked in a mortal struggle with another culture for 4 years, the modern stigma against civilian casualties on the other side tends to lose it's power. "Yes we know two of your sons died in France, but we need your Last one to invade Japan to save them the pain of civilian casualties".

Please. War sucks, but don't condemn the actions of those drawn into a conflict as war crimes. Whatever idealistic propagande you've been reading dosen't apply in the real world.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Sly Frog:
Instead I ask for a lock down on this thread. It has reached a point of stupidity (I won't say which side I think has really reached it), and no longer has the slightest thing to do with Dominions. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, according to the custom of the Internet, technically, this discussion should have ended when Nazis were mentioned.