OT - your fav games [Archive] - .com.unity Forums

Blitz

July 18th, 2004, 02:35 AM

A discussion in another thread makes me wonder how many of the same favorite games this community shares. Dom2 is definately a niche product, and I imagine even in other genres there will be a lot of crossover. So to satisfy my interest, let's have your top games, seperated by genre. I'll start.

RTS - Warcraft 3 - I'm not a fan, but this is the one game that I did invest in. Despite the younger demographic, I had fun Online.

TBS - Jagged Alliance 2 - This game was a masterpiece. I may go to Russia with a FN-FAL of my own looking for revenge if they "moo" the sequal.

FPS - Deus Ex - Again, not a genre I play much of, but I actually finished this one... which says a lot. Really a hybrid RPG, the linear play puts it in this Category for me.

RPG - Baldur's Gate 2 - Maybe the best game ever?

4X - Civilization - Don't ask me to pick one of the Versions. I played them all to death. Honorable mention to MOO.

MMO - Everquest - I spent much of 2000-2002 addicted to this game. Will probably spend my next 2 years playing World of Warcraft.

[ July 18, 2004, 07:04: Message edited by: Zen ]

Norfleet

July 18th, 2004, 03:04 AM

RTS - Total Annihilation. Anything else is the choice of the ignorant, or a complete and utter Philistine.

TBS - I'd try to think of one, but the only one which comes to mind at the moment is Dom 2. But that can't be right. Ask me again next year.

FPS - DOOM. Anything else is just a cheap imitation.

4X - Civ 2. They took everything that was good about Civ 1, and gave us more. Civ 3 is a step backwards in the eyes of many.

RPG - Bloody hell, I can never remember the names of these things. There's so many, and their names are all so formulaic. BG2 is definitely among the top of the list, though.

MMO - I'm sorry, these are all crap watered down for mass consumption. Nothing beats the oldschool MUD-types.

PvK

July 18th, 2004, 03:13 AM

RTT (Real-Time Tactical) - Myth: The Fallen Lords, Myth II: Soulblighter.

TBT (Turn-Based Tactical) - Tigers on the Prowl series (HPS Simulations), Combat Mission series (Battlefront).

RTS - I can't think of any that I really like, that are really RTS, because I dislike having to do strategic thinking OR micromanage my combat.

TBS - King of Dragon Pass. Total War series.

FSM (First-Person Melee) - Rune, at about 80% speed with no Rune powers.

FPS - I still haven't tried Deus Ex, but will some time. Various mods that tend to make weapons more lethal, and don't include Bunny-hopping.

RPG - Dungeon Crawl. Dungeon Master. Wizard's Crown (late 1980's, was derivative of GURPS combat system). GURPS (not computer). TFT (not computer). Haven't tried Baldur's Gate, but will some time. I don't like D&D mechanics (Hugo's "levels" of experience make your axe hit a mere flesh wound...).

4X - Space Empires IV Gold, preferably modded. I didn't like Civilization much (too fake).

MMO - Fortunately I've not been happy with any of the game systems, so I've avoided getting hooked on any of them. If the GURPS one ever gets done, and uses real GURPS mechanics, then that might change.

PvK

Graeme Dice

July 18th, 2004, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
RTS - Total Annihilation. Anything else is the choice of the ignorant, or a complete and utter Philistine.Or the person who can't find a copy for less than $100 on Ebay.

Blitz

July 18th, 2004, 03:17 AM

Wizard's Crown (late 1980's, was derivative of GURPS combat system)If you are talking about the C64 game, I have it on my machine right now. That game was so ahead of it's time that it's not even funny.

Cainehill

July 18th, 2004, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Norfleet:
RTS - Total Annihilation. Anything else is the choice of the ignorant, or a complete and utter Philistine.Or the person who can't find a copy for less than $100 on Ebay. <hr /></blockquote>$100 on ebay? Hey, I have a copy of TA that I never broke the shrink wrap on.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Kel

July 18th, 2004, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Wizard's Crown (late 1980's, was derivative of GURPS combat system)If you are talking about the C64 game, I have it on my machine right now. That game was so ahead of it's time that it's not even funny. <hr /></blockquote>That was a great game. Not my favorite of all time but for its time, it was pretty strong. Even had a sequel, Eternal Dagger, iirc.

- Kel

Arryn

July 18th, 2004, 04:22 AM

RPG recent: KotOR

RPG classic: Morrowind, Planescape Torment, Freedom Force

TBS recent: Dom 2

TBS classic: JA2, XCOM:TFTD, Fallout, MOO2, Civ3, SMAC (in that order)

Wargame: HTTR, HoI, Steel Panthers

FPS recent: CoD

FPS classic: Deus Ex

RTS recent: Age of Mythology

RTS classic: Starcraft, Myth 2

MMO: (they all suck, but SWG sucks least; have not tried City of Heroes)

Other: Diablo 2 LOD

Honorable mentions go to: Return to Krondor, Arcanum, Wizards & Warriors, Tropico ... and of course ... Panzer General and Doom 2.

Blitz

July 18th, 2004, 04:27 AM

That was a great game. Not my favorite of all time but for its time, it was pretty strong. Even had a sequel, Eternal Dagger, iirc.Both are abandonware. The emulator and 2 games are less than 100k (lol). Want me to attatch?

Cainehill

July 18th, 2004, 04:53 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> That was a great game. Not my favorite of all time but for its time, it was pretty strong. Even had a sequel, Eternal Dagger, iirc.Both are abandonware. The emulator and 2 games are less than 100k (lol). Want me to attatch? <hr /></blockquote>Eternal Dagger was awesome. And there's a C64 emulator that'll run it? Cool.

CUnknown

July 18th, 2004, 05:00 AM

RTS: Kohan, got to be one of the best games ever

I agree with these other games listed, but had to mention Kohan.

lol76

July 18th, 2004, 05:36 AM

RTS: Warcraft 3:Frozen Throne, Honorable mention to Age of Empires gold and 2 gold
TBS: Age of Wonders, Honorable mention to Alpha Centauri:Alien Crossfire
RPG Anything by Black Isles A.K.A. Baldurs gate 1 and 2, neverwinter nights, etc etc (note I beat all these with expansions! just cant keep my elven rogue with twin scythes down http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )
FPS: Call of Duty, Honorable mention to quake 3 nothing can beat the feeling of hacking your opponents dead body to bits with a chainsaw/gauntlet
MMO: Every gurps game, I still play traveller and spycraft (board), even though the dm's wife Banned us from D&D (damn speermint tradition!!!!)
That was a veryyyy long list, byby now!

[ July 18, 2004, 04:36: Message edited by: lol76 ]

quantum_mechani

July 18th, 2004, 06:38 AM

RTS: Europa Universalis II
4X: Alpha Centauri
RPG: Morrowind, Arcanum

Never really liked FPS or MMO.

Thilock_Dominus

July 18th, 2004, 07:37 AM

RPG: Baldurs Gate I + II, Morrowind, Never winters Night.

TBS: Dom2, Alpha Centauri + expansion. - I think Firaxis should make an Alpha Centauri 2 or something, I really enjoy that game.

FPS: Blood - I'm not really into FPS genre but blood got me hooked, iI used hours playin Lan with friends and kicking zombie heads like a soccer ball http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .

4x : SEIV, MOO I + II

SIM: Ghost Masters - Really awesome to bad there wasn't editors to this game :/

Other(Dunno where to put it): Dominus, Dungeon Keeper I + 2.

Where to put MOM? Is it in the civ catagory or TBS catagory?

best regards
Thilock

djtool

July 18th, 2004, 08:00 AM

well some of these games may not be 'the best' but i have the fondest memories playing them.

Ultimate Wizard C64
Immortal Amiga
Pirates! C64, Amiga, Ibm (this is my all-time favorite game)
Wizardry 5 bane of the cosmic forge
Ultima 5
Tunnels of Doom TRS80
DOM2
City of Heroes
Dune 2 (heh, i bought it after work and didn't sleep until i had to go the next day) IBM DOS
Wings Amiga, loved the dog-fighting

oh yeah and the one that started me down the path to collosal (sp?) amounts of wasted time, asteroids.

how shameful of me...I forgot Fallout.

[ July 18, 2004, 07:02: Message edited by: djtool ]

Inigo Montoya

July 18th, 2004, 08:05 AM

TBS - Stars!

RTS - Kohan

Daynarr

July 18th, 2004, 08:53 AM

RPG: AD&D Classics (mostly played on C64): Pool of Radiance, Curse of Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades, Pools of Darkness
Dragonlance Classics - Champions of Krynn, Death Knights of Krynn, Dark Queen of Krynn.
Neverwinter Nights would be if I had ANY means of buying them where I live. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Fallout 1-2 (Arynn, Fallout is RPG, not TBS http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif , Fallout TACTICS is TBS)

TBS: Squad Based: Jagged Alliance 1-2 (with the recent fan mod Urban Chaos), X-com 1-3, Tactics Ogre (SNES emulator needed).
Space Strategy: Moo2 (about +1000000 hours of my life spent playing it), Space Empires IV, SMAC (it falls into Space strategy as it is on alien planet I guess), CIV 1-3 (because SMAC is here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), Emperor of the Fading Suns.
Fantasy Strategy: MoM, Age of Wonders (only first one as I think they butchered the sequel to make it more public friendly - improved sound and graphics and reduced gameplay), Dom2 (now this one must come as a surprise to everyone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif ), HOMM 3 (barely makes it here as I find the developers support, marketing and selling policy to be disgusting to say the least).
Wargames: I'm learning to play Steel Panthers at the moment but it looks like it's going to be my favourite.

RTS: Total War series (Shogun TW, Medieval TW), Total Annihilation (I guess Norfleet has some taste after all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ), Ogre Battle (SNES emulator needed).

FPS: Unreal Tournament, Unreal Tournament 2004, Far Cry (Single Player), the rest I wouldn't touch with the stick.

Management games: Transport Tycoon Deluxe.

There are probably lots of games that I didn't mention as I was making this list "on the fly".

[ July 18, 2004, 07:57: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Endoperez

July 18th, 2004, 09:40 AM

RPG: Betrayal at Krondor (free nowadays!), Baldur's Gate 1 (haven't tried 2 yet), Fallout 1 (same as with BGs)

Roguelike: ADOM, lately Crawl too
TBS: DomII, Dom:PPP, Master of Magic (I never really got into it, though)

RTS,FPS, MMO: Never found any I really liked, didn't get in Total Annihilation either... Probably I just don't like the genre

I also have X-com 1, The Ur-Quan Masters (Star Control 2 remake), DragonStrike and King's Quest 1 remake on my machine... Only the two first I _really_ like, others are just good. I would like to like Allegiance (also free), but haven't had time to try yet.

Blitz

July 18th, 2004, 10:00 AM

I forgot this wonderful BBS won't let us attatch files (or host pics, or avatars, or read forwards). Here's the link to Wizard's Crown. I'm sure you can manage an emulator, and Dagger is there as well.

Edited by Zen: Find it at the underdogs. Go google skillz or PM Blitz for a link.

[ July 18, 2004, 18:40: Message edited by: Zen ]

PvK

July 18th, 2004, 10:12 AM

Yes, that Wizard's Crown. I have it for the Atari ST. The combat seems to have been covertly based on the GURPS combat system, which is even better (for expert players who use maps and all the rules correctly), but not yet computerized (though a MMORPG is in the works).

Eternal Dagger was another in the series, and I sort of thought there might've been a third, but I could be making that up.

The series had tactical combat details and mortal-scale dangerous weapons - things that got me interested in and hooked on Dominions.

PvK

Boron

July 18th, 2004, 12:07 PM

strategy games :
world conquest : mainly paradox games , i love all 3 i own : hoi , eu 2 and victoria
shogun total war + medival total war were fun too but not as good as hoi or eu 2 or victoria
rts : i still think starcraft broodwar is the best rts-game ever made
the sequel warcraft 3 is crap though ihmo .
turn based strategy games : of course dominions 2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
panzer general was one of my first pc games i liked it at this time and the sequels too .
especially fantasy general and pazific admiral were nice
jagged alliance 2 is a really great game too i played it for a long time
my most liked tactical game at the moment is :
steel panthers WaW v.8.0
i can't believe that such a great game is for free .
the penetration system rocks
rpggames : baldurs gate 1 + 2 were great
neverwinter nights with both addition disks is reall great too
i played diablo 2 + lod excessevely over 1 year .
at the end i owned almost everything exept an old arcaines valor and other such great pre i think 1.08 uniques cause i started playing lod after this patch .
shooters : duke nukem 3d was awesome when i got it
my favourite shooter is counterstrike . i think there still exists no better one .
hopefully they convert it too the half life 2 engine soon cause the only thing that's a bit bad now are the graphics .
return to castle wolfenstein is great too.

Thilock_Dominus

July 18th, 2004, 12:42 PM

To add some good oldies to the list That I've also played: Blood Stone (amiga), Fantasy Empire (PC) Laser Squad (C64 + Amiga + PC) and ofcause Chaos.

And not to mention the Ultima series (I-VIII)

Tuna-Fish

July 18th, 2004, 12:49 PM

RTS, Paradox serie, Victoria, EU2, HoI, not (yet) very deeply in CK, I'll wait until they finish it first http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

TBS -
Jagged Alliance 2
Steel Panthers,
Dom2.

FPS - a mod for orginal Unreal Tournament called Infiltration. Looks crappy, plays like a dream.

Also was interested long in a HL mod called Natural Selection, but it simply became too fast for my reflexes. I was actually the one who got the one of the worlds best NS clans to try the game first time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (Fek'Lyrs, nowadays pretty much part of the Torment)

RPG - Nethack, ADOM.

4X - Stars! (hey, I still play that, also a shameless plug for a certain project called freestars on sf.net...)
Civ3, I never get why ppl say it's worse than 2. Also, would Alpha Centauri fall in the same Category?

RPG - Would WC- Privateer fall under this Category?

MMO - Jumpgate. The only MMO out there where the amount of XP farming and other idiotic things ppl do dont matter and the only thing that matters is how well you fly. Some of the ppl I introduced to it were quite shocked when they found out that they dont move around by just clicking targets but they actually gotta fly (and land) the spacecraft themselves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Jumpgate is the incarnation of privateer, only in MMO. I strongly suggest everyone who was ever interested in Priv to try out the 10-day trial. At least in the european server you dont have to give your credit card number to try the trial. The game was launched 3 years ago and has changed contantly during that time, and there's always some active RP that players need to participate in.

[ July 18, 2004, 11:53: Message edited by: Tuna-Fish ]

Karacan

July 18th, 2004, 03:30 PM

RTS: Kohan, and a heartfelt honorable mention to Warlords Battlecry I + II.

TBS: Warlords II+III, Dominions 1+2 and then comes Fantasy General.

RPG: Planescape: Torment, Anachronox (which I love for the wacky and sinister storyline), possibly Morrowind (because of all the time I spent playing it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

FPS: Hexen (NOT Hexen II), Blood

TPS: (third-person-shooter) BloodRayne

SIM: Terminus, King Of Dragonpass (both in no particular order http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

MOO: Rubies Of Eventide (now sadly defunct)

C64: Archon

[ July 18, 2004, 14:31: Message edited by: Karacan ]

Pirateiam

July 18th, 2004, 04:08 PM

RTS: Dune (since it was the first then quickly got tired of others) Kohan (Introduced company based strategy with RTS)

TBS: Empire- university mainframe (since it is what started my addiction), SM Alpha Cenrauri (The philosophy alone is worth it),XCOM, MOM, MOO, I would possibly say DOM 2 but it is still to young.

RPG: Darklands (I love non linear games), Baldurs Gate II

Adventure: Pirates!!!!! Greatest Game of All Time Period!

FPS: never played one more than 5 minutes without getting bored

WAR: Steel Panthers, The Ardennes Offensive, Tigers on the Prowl, Close Combat

SIM: AH-64, Battle of Britain

MOO: Yet to play one

[ July 18, 2004, 15:10: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

Kel

July 18th, 2004, 04:25 PM

Top 10 for me, in some kind of approximate order...

Sacrifice
Diablo2
MoM2
Planescape:Torment
X-com
Angband + variants
Halo
KOTOR
Kings of Dragon Pass
Half Life
Wizardy VII

Honorable mentions that I couldn't fit in there:
SMAC, MOO2, Disciples(and 2), Warlords, Civ games, Rainbow 6 2+3, Freedom Fighters

- Kel

The_Tauren13

July 18th, 2004, 04:40 PM

2 best games ever:

Counter-Strike (ive played this game constantly for 5 years without tiring of it)

Starcraft (really great game, no longer much fun because of the stupidity of the few people who still play it)

Gandalf Parker

July 18th, 2004, 04:46 PM

Lets not link to abandoneware sites.

If you liked Wizards Crown you might like Dungeon Oddyssey which is available here at shrapnelgames.com

Leif_-

July 18th, 2004, 05:02 PM

To twist the topic a little, here's some of the games I have the fondest memories from:

Racing game: Lotus (Amiga)
Sports Game: Speedball 2 (Amiga)
Beer and pretzels: Ports of Call (Amiga)
Arcade: Spy Hunter, Bubble Bobble or Uridium (can't choose - all on the C64)
RPG: Angband (Unix)
Hard to classify: Pirates (Amiga)
Beat em Up: Tekken III (Playstation)
Shoot-em-up: Dogs of War (Amiga) (Not a particularly good game, really, but a lot of fun to play cooperatively with a friend)
Space: Elite (C64)
Arcade-adventure: Ico (Playstation 2)
Strategy: Alpha Centauri (Linux)

PrinzMegaherz

July 18th, 2004, 08:07 PM

My personal top three:

Dom 2
I cant remember the Last time i spent so many hours playing one game

Dungeon Master
The superior role playing game. Even though I did not play it myself, I remember my father sitting in front of the amiga, my mother sitting next to him drawing maps, and me hiding behind the chair :-)

Warhammer Dark Omen:
I like everything about it: the story, the sounds of men fighting and mortar shells exploding, the neat 3d, simply everything.

Others:
FF4/6
Ogre Battle
Total Annihilation (Especially the ask the commander section on their homepage)
Star Control 2
Ufo 1
Internation Karate +
Nearly every Bitmap Brothers game (especially Speedball 2)
And many many more I already have forgotten but had lots of fun with :-)

[ July 18, 2004, 19:09: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

tinkthank

July 18th, 2004, 08:37 PM

1. What does 4X mean? Never heard of that

2. My favs:

a. Thief II
b. Planescape: Torment
c. Deux Ex 1
d. Baldur's Gate 2
e. Fallout I/II
f. Arcanum

3. What did you people like about Morrowind or NWN?? God I hated those

Cheezeninja

July 18th, 2004, 08:59 PM

hmmm... in no particular order

Dune 2
MoM
Civilization
Total Annihilation
The Starcraft Map Editor (the player made games were better than the original IMO)
Ultima Online (when it first came out it was the shiznit, has since been ruined)
Populous
Diablo

Taqwus

July 18th, 2004, 09:02 PM

Traditional map-based 4X:
Dominions II, although the second Master of Orion game deserves a very strong honorable mention.

TBS/RPG:
Jagged Alliance 2, love/hate. Love the detail, hate the assorted lack of realism (short ranges, incredible body armor/damage tolerance, etc) and inventory management pains, plus the need to search every room, and the inane endgame. Hated the "Deidranna Lives" mod.

Other TBS:
King of Dragon Pass; love/hate. Love the detail, hate the perverse randomness where you can be very badly hurt through unavoidable bad luck in an HQ or very early bad harvests.

RTS:
Ancient Art of War, the original one. Loved utterly. Would be great to see a modern Version with configurable squad limits, modability, multiplayer, ability to run on modern-speed CPUs without requiring a circulatory system filled with caffeine and meth.
Netrek, for multiplayer.

RPG:
Fallout/Fallout 2; loved the rich stories and nOnlinearity, hated the NPC 'ally' tactical stupidities and the poor FO2 endgame.

Wasteland; very fun, although combat was very basic and the endgame was cliched and annoying.

BBS DOOR:
Hack and Slash, Usurper: very fun, brutal and competitive RPG games.
BRE/SRE: empire resource management games, essentially multiplayer updates of Hammurabi/King. Very fun.

Endoperez

July 18th, 2004, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by tinkthank:
1. What does 4X mean? Never heard of that

"eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate"

From Home of the Underdogs:

Divided into two factions: those 4x games happening in space and those played on earth, Master of Orion and Sid Meier's Civilization given as examples.
"Fog of war, research, and city/colony management are integral elements of this subgenre [of strategy]."

Arryn

July 18th, 2004, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by tinkthank:
1. What does 4X mean? Never heard of thateXplore
eXpand
eXploit
eXterminate
3. What did you people like about Morrowind or NWN?? God I hated those What's wrong with either one? Especially such a great game as Morrowind, arguably one the finest fantasy RPGs ever made.

Morrowind has (not in any special order of importance):

* great graphics
* well-developed, and huge, world
* great backstory
* tons of quests
* the most flexible and detailed character creation system I've seen in a fantasy RPG
* awesome modding ability
* a developer that supports their game

There's not much more that you can ask of a game. What flaws I've seen have typically been modded away, if not fixed by the devs themselves.

Norfleet

July 18th, 2004, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
Morrowind has (not in any special order of importance):

* great graphics
I'd have to say that the graphics are so-so at best, and crawl like dog doody on all but the most powerful machines - something which totally does not mesh with the actual level of graphical quality.

* well-developed, and huge, worldIn the sense that somebody obviously lavishly and laboriously placed each and every one of those plates that you are obligated to clean out, yes.

* great backstory
* tons of quests
* the most flexible and detailed character creation system I've seen in a fantasy RPG
* awesome modding ability
No argument here.

* a developer that supports their gameThis can be considered to be both a good and a bad thing in some cases, although for Morrowind, it seems to be good.

There's not much more that you can ask of a game. What flaws I've seen have typically been modded away, if not fixed by the devs themselves. Nonetheless, I still remain distinctly uneasy about hearing that the Morrowind folks have acquired the rights to Fallout 3. There are certain humorous and amusing artifacts and behaviors I don't want to see.

[ July 18, 2004, 20:32: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Ygorl

July 18th, 2004, 09:42 PM

Legends of the Lost Realm. Took me 10 or 12 years to be that thing, finally did a couple years ago. What a great game.
Also, for those of you who like(d) Marathon, resurrection.bungie.org is nearly done with an excellent total conVersion of Unreal Tournament that recreates the classic using the somewhat more modern engine. Spectacular.

Arryn

July 18th, 2004, 09:42 PM

I also forgot to give honorable mentions to:

* Vampire:Redemption (FRPG; biggest flaw was linear plot, same problem Return to Krondor had; first decently-done conVersion of a pen&paper FRPG into a CRPG, and with GM capabilities)

* Anachronox (SFRPG; buggy as hell, annoying minigames, but the game was funny as hell to play through and had highly memorable and unique characters)

* Sword of Aragon (ancient DOS game that was a forerunner to today's games like Dom 2, distiction of being the first of the genre and well done for its day)

* Populous (RTS god vs. god game, not unlike Dom in various ways)

Boron

July 18th, 2004, 09:48 PM

oh i actually forgot gothic 2 in rpg section .
i have to agree with norfleet i bought morrowind in the game of the year edition but i shortly before got gothic 2 .
the graphics in gothic 2 are much better than morrowind . in gothic you really get the feeling that you live in this world.
unfortunately the story is a bit boring and once you finished it the 2 other characterclasses aren't enough motivation to play it again .

in strategy games i forgot master of orion 2 . it was really great .
only the ai sucked . i played on impossible then but that was a bit boring :
i had 10 doomstars which had to fight 250 battleships / titans but they still won .
but the combat Lasted extremely long .

Arryn

July 18th, 2004, 10:21 PM

Morrowind is *older* than Gothic 2 (and perhaps Gothic). It's graphics were cutting-edge when the game came out, and are not shabby even by today's standards, almost 3 years later. Stop to consider that Diablo 2 had woefully-obsolete graphics when *it* was released, and huge numbers of players still play the game today. Ditto JA2.

Gandalf Parker

July 18th, 2004, 11:08 PM

Morrowind I didnt like nearly as well as Daggerfall. I was very dissapointed and I still hope they do a Daggerfall 2.

NWN wasnt bad but it was a game engine with very little game attached. If you still have it you might want to check it out again now that there are ALOT of really good player done modules. Many of which stay up all the time on the creators machine running as a multiplayer game.

Arryn

July 18th, 2004, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Morrowind I didnt like nearly as well as Daggerfall. I was very dissapointedWhy? People keep saying they disliked the game, but they decline to say *what* it is about the game they didn't like (besides the graphics load on a computer, which is a non-issue with today's Boards).

Mardagg

July 19th, 2004, 12:00 AM

Real time strategy:

"Total Annihilation"
although not a big a fan of this genre,this game is one of my all time Favorites,still playing it Online with some friends from time to time.

("Warlords Battlecry 2")
for SP,this game was great fun,because of the Hero system and the huge mass of playable races.Only RTS ever I played a lot in SP,MP wasnt that funny though,too unbalanced IMO.

Other strategy games:

All time Favorites(Dominions 2 may get there):

"Warlords 1,Warlords 2 deluxe"
played warlords 1 on Amiga,great fun and one of my first fantasy strategy games.
Warlords 2 deluxe,I do renember those great Hot Seat sessions with 2 friends of mine long time ago,everytime resulting in a 2 vs 1 game,naturally.Diplomacy was very important therefore(I give you my cake,if you ally with me...) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

"Master of magic"
my all time favorite for SP.
Not much to say,time wise this could be the game I played the most in my life.I still have a working Version on my PC ...I only stopped playing it from time to time because of Dominions now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

"Battle Isle 1 and 2"
I very much liked the game idea for Multiplayer,especially in 1(Splitscreen).

"Celtic Legends"
this is the(very old) game,where the developers of HoMM took the game idea from.

further games to mention:
MOO2,Fantasy General,Fantasy Empires,Warlords 3/Battle Isle 3(not as addictive as the first parts of the series IMO),Panzer General,AOW/AOW2/AOW:SM,HoMM 2/HoMM 3,Vikings:Fields of Conquest

RPG:

"Amberstar"
"Wizardry 6:Bane of the Cosmic Forge"

Only RPG`s ever,I did play through.
I didnt use any hints/solutions,if I renember correctly.
Whereas Amberstar was quite easy to finish,Wizardry was really,really difficult,with lots of restarts involved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Both belong to my all time Favorites.

also to mention:
-Might&Magic 2(my first RPG game,C64)
-Dragon Wars
-Legend of Faerghail
-Dark Queen of Krynn
-Wizardry 7:Crusaders of Dark Savant
(still have a working Version installed together with my savegames...maybe I will finish it sometimes).

[ July 19, 2004, 00:11: Message edited by: Mardagg ]

djtool

July 19th, 2004, 04:36 AM

I tried morrowwind myself...it didn't hold my interest.

another one I forgot to mention was alone in the dark. That's one of the only games (probably can count them on one hand) that i've finished multiple times. Like 13 or 14.

Arryn

July 19th, 2004, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by djtool:
[QB]I tried Morrowind myself...it didn't hold my interest./QB]And again, I ask: why?

There are plenty of games I dislike, and games I like that have things I dislike about them. But if someone says they dislike or didn't care for something, without saying why, there's no basis for someone else to compare or judge.

LintMan

July 19th, 2004, 05:59 AM

RTS: Total Annihilation, no other RTS else comes close.

TBS: Conquered Kingdoms (by dearly departed QQP)-old school, lousy EGA graphics and ridiculous music, but great AI and a wonderfully balanced set of units.

FPS (single player): I'll pick 3: 1) Half Life - great story, groundbreaking technology for its time. Most FPS's today still don't match its single-player quality.
2) Medal of Honor: Allied Assault - much of the game was standard fare, but the Normandy beach level in particular is awesome.

FPS (Online): Half Life Team Fortress - Awesome team-based play with specialized classes. I was in a very strong clan competing in several leagues and this game sucked countless hours of my time.

RPG: I've been a fantasy RPG player back from the Temple of Apshai days on my C-64, but I'll say Knights of the Old Republic is the best RPG I've ever played.

4X: MOO2. Shrapnel's SEIV comes closes but is missing...something. MOO3 was a piece of garbage that I returned as soon as I discovered that the game was unable to save your turn information mid-turn.

Arcade strategy: Archon, Archon 2: Adept - yeah, I loved them both!

Action Adventure: Star Control 2 - probably my vote for greatest game of all time. Funny, fantastic story, great music, fun action combat.

Smauler

July 19th, 2004, 08:46 AM

Ok, I'll probably go for games that I have spent most time on, and have come back to again and again.

4X:
Civilization I (Amiga) - I got so bad GCSEs because of this game.
Civilization III (PC) - Didn't like II, not sure why, just thought it was a little repetative. III I like, but only really play it with mods (esp. DyP).
Master of Orion I (PC) - Absolute classic. I think I got more angry at this game than any other. "What?!? A 100 ship fleet on my doorstep in turn 5". I guess the AI wasn't up to much, it got _huge_ bonuses.

RTS:
Dune (PC) - Not much of a RTS fan, but liked this.

RPG:
Angband, Zangband, TOME (PC) - I always come back to these, predominantely Zangband. There is just so much variety.
Betrayal at Krondor (PC) - I remember playing this with a friend, we never finished it, but it was classic fun.
Baldur's Gate II (PC) - Still going through this, it's massive and enjoyable all the way.

Driving:
Gran Turismo series (PS1 and PS2) - Can't be beat.
V-Rally I (PS1) - Sheer driving 1v1 fun. I used to play this all the time at university.
Demolition Derby I (PS1) - An oldie, simple, but a goodie.
Supercars I & II (Amiga) - Great little arcade racers. Homing missiles were ace.

FPS:
DOOM I and II (PC) - These introduced me to multiplayer gaming. We had a 4 computers network at home, and we had day long parties which were intended to be DOOM during the day, other stuff in the evening. DOOM took over all.
Counterstrike (PC) - I actually got pretty good at this, and it was amazingly great Online. Hacks killed it a bit in some cases, but mostly it was great fun.
Quake III (PC): Great fun Online, railgun fanatics of the world unite.

Sports:
Sensible Soccer (Amiga & PC) - I just loved this game, but the computer wasn't much of a challenge, and none of my mates would play me because I just whipped them. It was silly fun though.
Tracksuit Manager (C64) - No idea why I got hooked on this, but I did. It was crap, but I did win the world cup once.
Speedball II (Amiga) - So much fun. I spent about 6 hours playing this a couple of nights ago, with an emulator.
Decathlon (C64) - Nothing like a frenzy of joystick waggling to get the adrenaline up. I think I got over 11000 points once.
Tony Hawkes Pro Skating II & III(PS1 & PS2) - I am generally a pretty good gamer, but these I am _so_ bad at. I enjoy them lots though.
SSX (PS2) - Fun game, I wasn't too bad at it either, unlike the previous.

Space:
X2 - The Threat (PC) - The game I'm currently playing most at the moment, especially now the 1.4 patch is out. Immense scope, great game. Storyline sucks though, but that's not the point to the game.
Frontier (Amiga) - Liked, but didn't love this game. Too many glitches, it was pretty huge and limitless though, and kept me playing for hours and hours.

Other:
Pirates! (Amiga) - I never did find my sister, but did just about everything else. I basically owned that Carribean by the end.
Railroad Tycoon I (Amiga) - I played this game so much. II and III didn't capture my imagination as much, but I still played them both pretty much (III still). III's landscaping is so annoying though.
Grand Theft Auto Series (Amiga & PC) - The original 2 were a bLast, I loved unnecessary killing even back then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif . III made it prettier, and kept all the fun elements.
Worms (PS1) - So much time went on this game. If Civ I killed my GCSEs, this game killed my degree. So many times I was doing work, and a friend came round and asked "Fancy a game of Worms?". By the end, we had played literally thousands of games, each best of 3 rounds. The scoreboard was all screwed up, because we'd played it so much.

I've been playing with Morrowind a bit recently too, but can't seem to find any love for it. Managing stats is a bit of a pain, and there are huge numbers of exploits (Alchemy = Immediate level 10 rich character). Anyway, that's about me done, I think. I'm sure I'll think of some more later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

Blitz

July 19th, 2004, 09:00 AM

Civilization III (PC) - Didn't like II, not sure why, just thought it was a little repetative. III I like, but only really play it with mods (esp. DyP). I never got why people hated Civ 3. So many excellent advances. Workers instead of settlers, the whole culture thing was done well. UU's were pretty nice. I can't really see where the game lacks when compared to Civ2. Some complained about the corruption system, but once you knew what you were doing that wasn't hard to manage.

Esben Mose Hansen

July 19th, 2004, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Civilization III (PC) - Didn't like II, not sure why, just thought it was a little repetative. III I like, but only really play it with mods (esp. DyP). I never got why people hated Civ 3. So many excellent advances. Workers instead of settlers, the whole culture thing was done well. UU's were pretty nice. I can't really see where the game lacks when compared to Civ2. Some complained about the corruption system, but once you knew what you were doing that wasn't hard to manage. <hr /></blockquote>I like Civ III, but I think Alpha Centauri was better in many ways. Civ III has a good AI, and that helps a lot. But Alpha Centauri had atmosphere; it had terraforming, 3D landscape, nukes that made a difference, custom units, sea cities and potentially huge cities. Also, it had the best quotes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So all in all, I think perhaps Alpha Centauri may have been the best non-free game I have ever played.

Another fond memory is Worms I + II (after which they lost it.) and scorched earth. Wizardry 8, Might and Magic 6+7, and recently, UT2004. The Longest Journey, Siberia, Broken Sword 3 and other adventure games.

Arryn

July 19th, 2004, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Esben Mose Hansen:
Another fond memory is ... Siberia ...I've been considering Syberia. What can you tell me about it?

Esben Mose Hansen

July 19th, 2004, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Esben Mose Hansen:
Another fond memory is ... Siberia ...I've been considering Syberia. What can you tell me about it? <hr /></blockquote>buy it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif )

Seriously, it is a atmospheric and extremely beautiful game. It is of the point-and-click puzzle solving Category. I found the puzzle diffuculty mostly satsfying, though there are a few I found more bothersome than interesting. The storyline is very good and engaging. It is not completely unlike The Longest Journey.

Boron

July 19th, 2004, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
Morrowind is *older* than Gothic 2 (and perhaps Gothic). It's graphics were cutting-edge when the game came out, and are not shabby even by today's standards, almost 3 years later. Stop to consider that Diablo 2 had woefully-obsolete graphics when *it* was released, and huge numbers of players still play the game today. Ditto JA2. hm i always thought that gothic 1 is older than morrowind and gothic 2 came out only about 1/2 year after morrowind .
ihmo gothic 1 had already an almost as good graphic as morrowind and the gothic 2 graphic is much better .

ja 2 is one of my alltime favourites too .
another one is starcraft .
both have crappy graphics but graphics but graphics don't play a major role for me .
but in first person 3d games like morrowind and gothic they matter .
unfortunately i played gothic 2 before morrowind and then i was disappointed .
i don't know why but i don't like the morrowind graphic. i still play counterstrike which has a worse graphic than morrowind but there i don't care .
it is just a personal disliking for morrowind don't know why .

tinkthank

July 19th, 2004, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Morrowind I didnt like nearly as well as Daggerfall. I was very dissapointedWhy? People keep saying they disliked the game, but they decline to say *what* it is about the game they didn't like (besides the graphics load on a computer, which is a non-issue with today's Boards). <hr /></blockquote>Sorry.
It seemed to me, like NWN, to be a world done without love. (This angered me even more in NWN, the makers of which having had really impressed me elsewhere.)
Despite being full of *things*, it seemed empty and hollow. (Think Heidegger's Zuhandenheit vs. Vorhandenheit here.)
This feeling was exacerbated in my eyes by an incredibly high degree of means-ends-functionality: almost nothing was there for its own sake, either as a pleasure or a joke or whatever. The NPCs seemed to me to be mere vessels to be robbed, killed, persuaded or from whom one could receive a quest (depending on your char type). The lack of feeling of immersion annoyed me so much that I had to stop somewhere in the middle of that big city whose name escapes me. Small things bothered me: I hated being greeted everywhere as "Outlander", even when disguised with that special helmet you got from one of those quests somewhere else.

I really liked the good system (nice classlessness, nicely open-ended); all in all, it was a good idea which was also implemented halfway decently, but one which completely lacked magic and feeling for me.

Kel

July 19th, 2004, 02:20 PM

I always saw NWN as a success. I had the impression it was meant to be a background for Online role playing where people could conduct their own games with players and dungeon msaters and other such role playing things.

The 'story' it came with was, to me, just like a demo, not the actual game. You were meant to come up with your own stuff, they were just providing the mechanics. That said, the game had a progressive memory leak that made it unplayable after a half hour, for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Karacan

July 19th, 2004, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djtool:
I tried Morrowind myself...it didn't hold my interest.And again, I ask: why?
<hr /></blockquote>I'm speaking here as someone who played Morrowind extensively for about four months, but I, too, was disappointed in retrospect. "We have learned from Daggerfall", exlaimed Bethesda. "We will provide unique characters this time, and interaction will be great." After the tenth time bribing and flattering an important NPC to gain vital informations or to solve a quest, this statement becomes a sore joke. The quests, while varied, where nevertheless of cookie-cutter-quality. Get item/disable person A for person B to tell person C. The nice storylines help from time to time, but the pattern rarely changes, with only a few notable exceptions.

I constantly asked myself if I would have liked Morrowind nearly as well as I did if it had, say, Ultima I-III graphics, or pixelated textures like good old Doom, and I have come to the conclusion that without the brilliant graphics of Morrowind (this is the best nightsky of any game I ever saw, including every single modern space sim, and the dust storms just looked cool, and while I love Gothic and its sequel as well, they just don't touch this), it wouldn't have Lasted long on my computer. Maybe you and I are more graphically inclined than others. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If Dom II had the graphics of Morrowind, I'd still love it. If Morrowind had the graphics of Dom II, I wouldn't. Oh, and compared to Daggerfall, I was very disappointed by the rather uninteresting dungeons. I seriously hope that Oblivion - which I will purchase blind, as well - comes out as a hybrid between Daggerfall goodness and Morrowind playability and graphics.

Whoa. I guess that's why noone tried to answer you in long, because I for one could have gone on for another hour or so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

/edit: So much text, so much spelling.

[ July 19, 2004, 13:29: Message edited by: Karacan ]

djtool

July 19th, 2004, 03:49 PM

And again, I ask: why?

There are plenty of games I dislike, and games I like that have things I dislike about them. But if someone says they dislike or didn't care for something, without saying why, there's no basis for someone else to compare or judge. [/QB]I didn't think anyone really cared so I didn't wat to waste anyones time by contributing my reasons why. Its pointless anyways since this thread isn't about whether someone wants to buy it or not.

well that's just the way I feel <shrug>

[ July 19, 2004, 14:50: Message edited by: djtool ]

djtool

July 19th, 2004, 03:54 PM

'and another thing young man...' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

its not fair to critique NWN on its story. That wasn't the main focus of that project. There are so many persistant worlds that go way beyond the incuded story. I tried some of them, its kinda like playing a MMO w/out subscription fee. I kinda like the view perspective in those games too.

tinkthank

July 19th, 2004, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by djtool:

its not fair to critique NWN on its story.
Yes it is.
I purchased the game because I wanted a nice RPG, not a hollow vessel for modding or Online play. I visited the Bioware Boards almost religiously until it came out and was promised a great story a la Baldur's Gate series. Instead I got a quickly coughed-up random-tool-generated dungeon of immense proportions. I found only Pool of Radiance to be crappier.

Certainly, certainly, certainly does NWN contain an excellent tool for creating dungeons and individually modded adventures. Hat's off there. But there isn't a heck of a lot more there.

Originally posted by djtool:

There are so many persistant worlds that go way beyond the incuded story. I tried some of them, its kinda like playing a MMO w/out subscription fee. I kinda like the view perspective in those games too. NWN is not a persistent world, nor is it an MMO. Almost anyone at Bioware and all of the fans on the Bioware site will toss flames at you for saying otherwise. (who cares -- but I agree with them that it isn't an MMO)

NWN left such a bad taste in my mouth during my SP experience that I couldnt even bear to touch it for any MP experimentation.

Boron

July 19th, 2004, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by djtool:
'and another thing young man...' http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

its not fair to critique NWN on its story. That wasn't the main focus of that project. There are so many persistant worlds that go way beyond the incuded story. I tried some of them, its kinda like playing a MMO w/out subscription fee. I kinda like the view perspective in those games too. nwn is a good game and a worthy successor to baldurs gate 2 no doubt . and only the story of the normal nwn isn't that good the stories of shadows of undernzit and hordes from underdark are much better .

but all in all it isn't as addicting to me than diablo 2 and diablo 2 lod was . i never played a mod though so a question :
can you mod characters too ? i mean new skills , spells and so on ?

cause if not i think although very well implemented the d&d system is still a bit boring and unbalanced .
if you pvp versus a mage he kills you with isaacs greater missile storm . i think there was no resistance for this in nwn .
playing pvm is in the long run very boring too i think cause even when you only play in a team of 2 a mage and a fighter it is boring since you kill almost everything without real threats.

in diablo 2 unique monsters with "lucky" picks in their skills like the multiblitzers could still sometime kill you . when you had good enough equipment even baal was not difficult but in 1 of 50 or 100 tries you still could die .
the main motivation from diablo is almost lacking in nwn : that you always could find one more kickass item and trading was really cool too before all the tradehacks and dupes came .
and pvp was funnier in diablo 2 too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Gandalf Parker

July 19th, 2004, 04:56 PM

NWN:
NeverWinter Nights definetly must be judged by what has been created for it since the release. Some of the player-done modules are way impressive. There are Online playable duplications of just about every one of my old favorite tabletop modules. And some wonderful new creations also. And the people who actually run them have an obvious love of DnD as they will play parts within the game to make it better. Of course there are some clunkers out there also but there is alot worth playing which makes the initial purchase worth having.

MORROWIND:
As for my dislike of Morrowind, I guess it wasnt bad as a game. Worth the money. I was just dissappointed because I was hoping for a bigger better Daggerfall. I liked it in Daggerfall that you had a huge map to play in, could become a hated thief in one country and a hero in the next. That such reputations chained off each other. That I could take off from the storyline and explore doing dungeons and such in a DnD style.

Morrowind promised better but the caves werent really unique, they were stupid. Their uniqueness had me going deep into a cave and spending an hour trying to figure out how to position myself to be able to reach into that 3rd jar behind the door only to find a piece of bread. Their "open game" meant I could wander but there was no real wilderness, only short gaps between the roads. And no real unconnected adventures. You only discovered that the place you found and did would have shown up later in the storyline anyway. Like I said it was a good enough game for a problem-solving RPG and they should have stuck with that as the description of it. I didnt feel it was the improved Daggerfall that they said it was. Id like to see them try again.

[ July 19, 2004, 15:57: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Arryn

July 19th, 2004, 05:51 PM

To all who took the time to express their views of NWN and Morrowind in detail, thanks!

Karacan and Gandalf pretty much expressed most of what I dislike about Morrowind (though I do love the game). What should be added to what's been said is that Morrowind becomes a very tedious step-n-fetch after about character L10 or so, since by then you're pretty well guaranteed that any opponent you face you'll defeat. The game isn't balanced properly so that it remains a challenge and fun from beginning to end.

As for NWN, I agree with Tinkthank and Boron, despite Gandalf's valid point(s).

daesthai

July 19th, 2004, 06:12 PM

TBS - Heroes of Might & Magic (2 & 3 specifically), Age of Wonders, Chessmaster, MOONBASE COMMANDER!! (and Dom 2 quickly moving up through the ranks)

RPG - Bladur's Gate 2

FPS - Don't really like FPS, though I enjoyed (and completed) Deus Ex. Question, what Category does Activision's Battlezone (1998) fit in - FPS, sim, or RTS? =)~ I LOVED that one.

RTS - Like em a lot, but I suck at em. WL:BC2

Sports - Toss up between EA's Madden and NCAA football.

4x - Alpha Centauri, Civ 3

Arryn

July 19th, 2004, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by daesthai:
Question, what Category does Activision's Battlezone (1998) fit in - FPS, sim, or RTS? =)~It's a FPS, not a true sim, though the publisher may categorize it as a sim.

[ July 19, 2004, 17:50: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Kel

July 19th, 2004, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
As for NWN, I agree with Tinkthank and Boron, despite Gandalf's valid point(s). And Kel's, who happens to be of the same opinion as Gandalf, more or less.

- Kel

Arryn

July 19th, 2004, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Boron:
i always thought that gothic 1 is older than morrowind and gothic 2 came out only about 1/2 year after morrowind.According to gamefaqs.com:

Gothic released 23 Nov 01.
Morrowind released 01 May 02.
Gothic 2 released 13 Jun 03.

Gothic 3 is targetted for Dec 05.

EDIT: in my mind, I had the release dates for Gothic and Morrowind reversed, so I was thinking that Morrowind was nearly 3 years old, when it's only 2-1/4.

[ July 19, 2004, 18:53: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Gandalf Parker

July 19th, 2004, 07:59 PM

Pardon me a minute while I break in with a message from our sponsors. (this seemed a good thread to mention it)

We need beta testers. Ground floor. Chance to get on the unofficial "list" of beta testers.

Much input needed on this multiplayer-only game. Please read the ReadMe.txt.
http://www.gilligames.com/beta/downloads/broken_treaty_0.65.zip
For more info, visit http://www.brokentreaty.com
I only got a chance to glance at it but (I hope I dont insult the guy here) it reminds me of the old Empire game but with newer graphics. There is no AI yet but you can play yourself twice flipping back and forth, or multiplay Online with other beta-testers. Take a look. If you are interested and feel you can make suggestions that will bring the game forward (not blow the guy off of it) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif then send me a PM and I will open access to the beta forum.

(And if anyone else is working on a game, talk to me)

[ July 19, 2004, 19:00: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Esben Mose Hansen

July 19th, 2004, 09:39 PM

Some specs would be nice... winows only, I presume?

Gandalf Parker

July 19th, 2004, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Esben Mose Hansen:
Some specs would be nice... winows only, I presume? Yeah I think so. Sorry about that, I do try not to be WinObnoxious usually.

Its retro looking and fairly young in its development so I dont think it has high requirments. It is up to being playable.

Vicious Love

July 19th, 2004, 10:33 PM

'scuse the delayed response, but what giveth?

Originally posted by Arryn:
I also forgot to give honorable mentions to:

* Vampire:Redemption (FRPG; biggest flaw was linear plot, same problem Return to Krondor had; first decently-done conVersion of a pen&paper FRPG into a CRPG, and with GM capabilities)
The game was an atrocity. Firstly, "linear plot" is an understatement. The game was Diablo with more cutscenes. Dialogue options, when present, were either completely meaningless, or affected your Humanity stat, and nothing else(Save in one occasion near the endgame, where you also got the chance to learn the Serpentis discipline. Woohoo.)
The one time I actually got the chance to try and think things through, instead of killing everything on the map and then letting the "plot" run itself for me, was when I checked Pink's aura, right after he joined my party. I guess the aura-reading Discipline was thrown in as kind of an afterthought, because although Pink's one-word description was "diabolist", which is pretty much interchangeable with "traitorous bastard", there was absolutely nothing I could do to act upon this knowledge. Three or four dungeons full of identical vampires and ghouls later, Pink betrayed me, and I had to act all shocked and awed.
Your party members couldn't even die, and stunned party members were miraculously resurrected every time they had a part to play in a prescripted conversation, only to pass out again.
Furthermore, for a game in which combat(And the infrequent and nigh-inconsequential dialogue option) is the ONLY interactive element, you'd think they coulda made battle remotely interesting.
As for the whole "decently done conVersion" thingie, I'm at a loss for words. Pretty much the only element of P&P V:tM which made the transition intact was also it's worst feature: Unadulterated, hackneyed, melodramatic, and thoroughly ludicrous angst. The fact that this cesspool of Goth isn't even tempered with a shred of realism makes the whole thing ridiculous.
"Alas", sez Christof, "I am cursed to feast on the blood of the living". Christof then proceeds to attack one of the FOUR, count 'em, FOUR humans(Other than guards, vendors, and the three plot-related NPCs) in Prague. A guard halfway across the map becomes instantaneously aware of this, rushes over, shouting "Halt! Halt! Halt!" all the while, and starts swinging at the feeding Christof. His fourth blow connects, so Christof uses Presence level two on him, and starts feeding off him, which calls in another "Halten sie!" shouting guard.
Deciding that being "Cursed to feast on the blood of the living"(Oh, the pain of it all) isn't worth the effort, Christof leaves the zone, automatically shaking off pursuit, and attacks a convenient stack of casks and barrels, the ammo crates of the Dark Ages. After handily dispatching the barrels(Shouting "To the abyss with thee!" with every fourth swing), he examines the contents, and finds a low-level magic scroll, some gold, and a vial of blood. How convenient. Of course, people don't REALLY leave wee little bottles of blood lying around in barrels. In the earlier portion of the game, when Christof was still human, those barrels all contained healing potions(Yes, HEALING POTIONS. Hello, dark, broody realism). I assume it's the sheer force of vamp-Christof's angst that transmutes those healing potions into blood.
The effort the developers put into trying to justify taking the player from one massacre to another was simply pitiful. Honestly, you FedEX the Nosferatu some of ze bludde, he agrees to let you into the tunnels to the next zone, but warns that the remainder of his clan might not be so hospitable. FOR NO REASON, you are attacked by at least FOURTY vampires, some of them guarding levers or treasure chests(A few of them in what appears to be the legendary FOUR BY FOUR ROOM WITH A CHEST IN THE MIDDLE. I kid you not). There are only three kinds of Nosferatu in both levels of that dungeon. Three models. Three sets of textures. Three sets of stats. And one of them is a unique sub-boss. He's just like the other Nosferatu, in that he has no lines and just attacks you for no conceivable reason, but he has a magic sword and better stats.
This sort of scene repeats itself about a dozen times, and then the game ends in one of three ways, depending on your Humanity stat. Please do note that in several of the semi-random massacres, you slaughter humans, not vampires. "Alas, I am cursed not to give a damn about generic goon humans, though generic prey humans are off limits. Not that I need to feed off them, or anything, since there are roughly 5,000 blood points per zone lying around in wineskins and vials for no apparent reason, and the gypsy has an unlimited supply for sale, though I should probably save up for better magic armor and a few 'identify' scrolls, instead".
Early on in the game, there's a glimmer of false hope. You've just completed your first utterly pointless dungeon crawl, as a human. You've been vamped, you've had a bunch of prescripted conversations which positively OOZED junior high school level poetry and "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Middle English, abridged Version", and you're told you must secretly, DISCREETLY retrieve a fragment of the Book of Nod(TM) from a nearby vampire monastery. So, what's V:tM:R's take on stealth-based gameplay. Walking right in and mowing down another fourty or so vampires. One scene after the massacre, the head of the monastery has forgiven and forgotten everything, and even lets one of his favorite vampires, the one with the phone-sex feeding sound effects, join your party. I mean, sure, you did eliminate a traitor from his clan's midst, but you'd think he'd have a problem with your methods. Fourty. Vampires. On a cover operation.
As for multiplayer, the GM capabilities were a nice concept, definitely one long overdue, at any rate, but they were also completely and utterly unworkable. The interface was a hate crime against the geek ethnicity, and even if you managed to get everything working properly, it couldn't even begin to compare to a MUSH or pen & paper game.

I hope that came out coherent, I'm definitely not at my best at the moment. So. Very. Tired.

Update: Just to drive the point home, for anyone familiar with P&P V:tM, here are some of the generic goons you get to fight. There are somewhere between thirty and fifty or so per dungeon, by my estimate, and some appear in multiple dungeons. Most come in only one variety(One model, one set of textures, one set of stats), though a few come in two, not counting bosses and sub-bosses.
1) Teutonic knights, in what appears to be a really bad historian's conception of full Gothic plate. Just walking around their perfectly secure stronghold and patrolling the city streets in FULL GOTHIC PLATE. Which, like pretty much everything else carried by goons, cannot be looted. Keep in mind there are about fourty of these bastards on one map. Some of them say "Halt!".
2) Nosferatu
3) Shadowy Lasombra goon-things
4) Szlachta
5) Tremere
6) Gargoyles
7) Ventrue.
8) VENTRUE, for shag's sake! DOZENS OF IDENTICAL VENTRUE GOONS! VENTRUE! GOONS! VENTRUE GOONS!
9) MY BRAIN IS SWELLING!

Updated update: In the game's defense, the opening cutscene was awesome. Everything else sucked. I know some people didn't like how Gordon Freeman had no lines, but I know most people wouldn't have wanted his every other line to be "Forsooth! I am forsook, prithee, by God, sure'n, yea, verily, and alas, anon. Oh, deceitful mendacity, how your falsehoods deceive me! But such is my fate, for I am damned, yea, damned, I verily say unto thee, thou Lion of Zion. I hereby now go at present, to return only with this bladed sword plus four of which you speak, else damned be I, though damned I be, for such is the lot of the damned."

[ July 19, 2004, 21:55: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

djtool

July 19th, 2004, 10:58 PM

NWN is not a persistent world, nor is it an MMO. [/QB]the product in the box may not be a PW, but there are PW's out there and some very nice ones at that.

As far as being a MMO is concerned...well i suppose that depends on how many people you think it takes to be considered massive.

however if they promised it to be as good a story as BG1 and 2...well they must have been high. No way that came close.

[ July 19, 2004, 22:02: Message edited by: djtool ]

Arryn

July 19th, 2004, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
The game was an atrocity.Please, don't hold back on how you really feel about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
As for the whole "decently done conVersion" thingie, I'm at a loss for words.Given the length of your response, methinks not.

Pretty much the only element of P&P V:tM which made the transition intactGuess you missed the interviews with the CRPG's designers on why things were done as they were. Or the interviews with the designers of the forthcoming Vampire Bloodlines, on what they thought of the earlier game, and what they're doing for the new one. I can see why you'd be disappointed, if you don't understand why they couldn't convert the WW rules more closely than they did. My advice is to avoid getting Bloodlines, because you'll likely be upset all over again.

I hope that came out coherent, I'm definitely not at my best at the moment. So. Very. Tired.

9) MY BRAIN IS SWELLING!Coherent, yes. Ranting and frothing at the mouth too.

What you disliked about the game (except for the Ventrue goons, which really spoils the whole thing for those familiar with the WW pen&paper game) I could say about many other popular CRPGs. Bear in mind that it's a CRPG, and as such still has to appeal to the mass audience. The sort of roleplayers that love WW are a much smaller niche market than what the CRPG was targeting. So, yes, the game is over the top (another understatement) in many places, and has many many "theatrical" flaws. But I give it credit for allowing, like NWN has done, GMs to create their own (and better) modules and be able to play with people who aren't able to sit across a table from them. It also further popularized the pen&paper game, which doesn't hurt. And, despite its flaws, the game was fun to play. Perhaps not for you, but for myself and thousands of others it was.

Vicious Love

July 19th, 2004, 11:37 PM

Point taken. Nonetheless, I expect a V:tM game to be more like Fallout than Diablo. I LIKE Diablo, because it doesn't pretend to be not-Diablo.
The whole point of V:tM is that it is the anti-AD&D. Dungeon crawls, healing potions, and legions of identical foes there only for the XP are anathema to White Wolf. Right from the outset, White Wolf games were there so elitist geeks could act like they're better than run-off-the-mill hack & slashers, all the while shamelessly indulging in one the oldest adolescent power fantasies in the book.
It's like that Will Smith opus, "I, Robot". It might turn out to be a downright awesome action movie. The effects might be truly spectacular. And Asimov's grave is still doing 300 or so RPM. If they'da called it "Sassy MegaDetroit Cop Versus the Killicator-Robot HyperNation", I'd probably watch it. Ditto for V:tM:R, but replace "Robot" with "Vampire" and "Sassy MegaDetroit Cop" with "Vampire".

Why am I not asleep yet? Stupid King of Dragon Pass demo. Download faster!

Update: Besides which, if Vampire fans are such a tiny niche demographic, why make a Vampire game at all?
I mean, Chessmaster 2000 mighta sold better if there were more explosions, but people looking for explosion-based entertainment generally get turned off by words like "Chess" and "master", as well as numbers above 7. Not that I actually play chess, or anything. Not nearly enough headshots.
Anyway, Bloodlines is going to kick. Silence your inappropriate-comparison making word hole. I'll be in my denial room.

[ July 19, 2004, 22:44: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

Kel

July 20th, 2004, 12:52 AM

Though none of htem are likely to make my top 10, I thought Vampire was a decent CRPG, I thought NWN was a decent CRPG and I plan to see I, Robot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Arryn

July 20th, 2004, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
Asimov's grave is still doing 300 or so RPM.Without a doubt. I've yet to see it, but I expect that "I, Robot" will bear about as much resemblence to something that Asimov would've approved of as Starship Troopers bore any resemblence to Heinlein's book of same name (besides having something called "bugs").

Boron

July 20th, 2004, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by tinkthank:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
Morrowind I didnt like nearly as well as Daggerfall. I was very dissapointedWhy? People keep saying they disliked the game, but they decline to say *what* it is about the game they didn't like (besides the graphics load on a computer, which is a non-issue with today's Boards). <hr /></blockquote>Sorry.
It seemed to me, like NWN, to be a world done without love. (This angered me even more in NWN, the makers of which having had really impressed me elsewhere.)
Despite being full of *things*, it seemed empty and hollow. (Think Heidegger's Zuhandenheit vs. Vorhandenheit here.)
This feeling was exacerbated in my eyes by an incredibly high degree of means-ends-functionality: almost nothing was there for its own sake, either as a pleasure or a joke or whatever. The NPCs seemed to me to be mere vessels to be robbed, killed, persuaded or from whom one could receive a quest (depending on your char type). The lack of feeling of immersion annoyed me so much that I had to stop somewhere in the middle of that big city whose name escapes me. Small things bothered me: I hated being greeted everywhere as "Outlander", even when disguised with that special helmet you got from one of those quests somewhere else.

I really liked the good system (nice classlessness, nicely open-ended); all in all, it was a good idea which was also implemented halfway decently, but one which completely lacked magic and feeling for me. <hr /></blockquote>yeah in neverwinter nights the story is only in parts nice . i liked the stories of your henchmen and parts of the main story but especially the first chapter in neverwinter nights i didn't like .
in the addition disks the story became better ihmo .
especially in the second one hordes from underdark the ingamevideos for important parts of the story were nice .
and the new special classes + epic chars until lvl 40 are nice .

i like the d&d rules system and it is well implemented in neverwinter nights .

but i didn't get as addicted with nwn as with e.g. diablo . bg 2 had the much nicer story too .

and another problem is that it is much too easy with certain characters .

i played a fighter / weaponmaster with 2 kukris .
i sharpened both by the smith in hordes from underdark and well it was really boring .
6 attacks / turn with critcal hit from 10-20 .
everything non critical immune got a critical hit almost every 2nd attack and so 100-150 damage . but even special critical immune monsters like the undead dragon died very quick .

so it is really too easy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif but balance seems to be very hard for roleplaygames in general .
in gothic 2 it was the same once you were familiar with the fighting system and knew what skills / attributes are important it was too easy too . i didn't need to use a single heal potion with any of the 6 dragons which disappointed me totally . they were integrated very atmospherically as great evils in the story but unfortunately they were easier to kill than 4 eliteorks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Leif_-

July 20th, 2004, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by Mardagg:

-Legend of Faerghail
WHAT? Somebody else has actually heard about this game? Now I'm tempted to dig out UAE and exploit the clone items "feature" again.

Arryn

July 21st, 2004, 04:20 AM

UPDATE: Having seen "I, Robot" this evening, I have to say that while Asimov would not have approved of the script (I can go into the reasons why if anyone really cares), the movie wasn't bad, and was a helluva lot closer to Asimov's "universe" than "Starship Troopers" was to Heinlein's. Go see the movie and enjoy it (ignoring the impossible physics of the bots will help). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Vicious Love

July 21st, 2004, 08:45 AM

Haven't seen it yet myself but, shortly after my Last post, decided to Google "'will smith' asimov 'in his grave'". Results were... enlightening. I suggest you run the same search yourself, or simply run a search for "'i, robot' hardwired". Turns out any and all similarities between the movie and the book(s) are wholly unintentional.

Update: Summary of search results from various seemingly credible sources, for the abysmally lazy - Once upon a time there was an eye-gougingly generic, post Cold War, Michael Crichton style technophobia/hubris movie, about a detective who has to combat a robot uprising with raw power of quip. Realizing that nothing save the inflated effects budget set their movie apart from every mainstream SciFi Lite movie ever made, the responsible parties got in touch with the estate of Isaac Asimov, commandeered the title "I, Robot", changed one of the movie characters' name, tossed in some halfhearted mention of the Laws of Robotics, and waited for the profits to roll in.

Getting back on topic, I'm a big fan of Warhammer: Dark Omen and Shadow of the Horned Rat myself, and I don't even like the miniatures game.
As for Baldur's Gate, I prefer my computer games either have a good plot(Fallout style), or no plot at all(Diablo style). I can only have so many "assassins" clad in black for no reason whatsoever walk up to me in the middle of a busy street and exclaim "HELLO THERE I AM AN ASSASSIN AND I AM HERE TO MURDER YOU!" before I vow never to touch a game again. Honestly, even the AD&D system lets you slit someone's throat in their sleep, if the developer can't come up with a halfway decent excuse for a fight, they should just make the game a glorified random encounter generator. Y'know, like CounterStrike, only single player.

Updated update: Furthermore, if I have to sit through one more melodramatic, ultracliched ripoff of the end of "The Empire Strikes Back", I'll weep. Stupid Sarevok.

Addendum to update update: I really should get a new keyboard. I've been spontaneously dropping letters for like a week now.

[ July 21, 2004, 08:05: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

Arryn

July 21st, 2004, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
As for Baldur's Gate, I prefer my computer games either have a good plot(Fallout style), or no plot at all(Diablo style). I can only have so many "assassins" clad in black for no reason whatsoever walk up to me in the middle of a busy street and exclaim "HELLO THERE I AM AN ASSASSIN AND I AM HERE TO MURDER YOU!" before I vow never to touch a game again.That's what so great about KotOR: it has a real plot, great characters, and the only people trying to kill you are scripted to do so for logical (plot) reasons. No random (stupid) mayhem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Norfleet

July 21st, 2004, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
As for Baldur's Gate, I prefer my computer games either have a good plot(Fallout style), or no plot at all(Diablo style). I can only have so many "assassins" clad in black for no reason whatsoever walk up to me in the middle of a busy street and exclaim "HELLO THERE I AM AN ASSASSIN AND I AM HERE TO MURDER YOU!" before I vow never to touch a game again.Those are ninjas, obviously. And as you well know, ninjas fight in public all the time!

That's what so great about KotOR: it has a real plot, great characters, and the only people trying to kill you are scripted to do so for logical (plot) reasons. No random (stupid) mayhem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif KOTOR had several planets with extremely hostile and violent wildlife that displayed incredible resilience to being shot. I'm also pretty sure they showed up more or less randomly for the sole purpose of mayhem, since I'm pretty thorough about clearing things out behind me, and when I came back out of a dead-end passage, there were more of them. But I feel a little bit of random mayhem every now and then is a healthy thing.

tinkthank

July 21st, 2004, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
UPDATE: Having seen "I, Robot" this evening, I have to say that while Asimov would not have approved of the script (I can go into the reasons why if anyone really cares), the movie wasn't bad, and was a helluva lot closer to Asimov's "universe" than "Starship Troopers" was to Heinlein's. Go see the movie and enjoy it (ignoring the impossible physics of the bots will help). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The beauty of Starship Troopers was that it was camp; it made Heinlein into something enjoyable.
Both Heinlein and actually to a stronger degree Asimov are in my opinion miserable writers; the entire "robot" series was puerile and lackluster. (Like the results of what happens when 70% of most Hollywood teams get their hands on a Phillip K. Dick story.) I wasn't planning to see I Robot, but you have got my interest piqued.

Leif_-

July 21st, 2004, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by tinkthank:
The beauty of Starship Troopers was that it was camp; it made Heinlein into something enjoyable.Only in the same sense that "Boxing Helena" made heavy weight boxing enjoyable - the movie "Starship Troopers" had nothing but superficial similarities with the book, so it can't really be said to have "made it enjoyable"

Both Heinlein and actually to a stronger degree Asimov are in my opinion miserable writers; the entire "robot" series was puerile and lackluster.
True in a sense - both Heinlein and Asimov, and many other science fiction writers of the time, were idea-writers, who used their stories as a vehicle to present ideas. If you don't find their ideas interesting, their writing and stories aren't good enough in themselves to be worth reading.

Norfleet

July 21st, 2004, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by tinkthank:
The beauty of Starship Troopers was that it was camp; it made Heinlein into something enjoyable.If, by "making into something enjoyable", you mean "gutting of all previously existing substance", then yeah, that's true.

However, catering to the lowest common denominator does not make for a truly good product....it just makes for crap that is quickly forgotten. In 20 years, the book will live on. The movie will be forgotten.

[ July 21, 2004, 11:32: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Vicious Love

July 21st, 2004, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Those are ninjas, obviously. And as you well know, ninjas fight in public all the time!Oh, yeah? If he's a ninja, how come he's not hardcore? He didn't even use one of those sickle-on-a-chain-with-a-doorknob-on-the-end things. Ninjas always get the coolest stuff.

Oh, and I agree that Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke and the like all left much to be desired, writing style wise. Aside from Neal Stephenson(Who mostly wrote Cyberpunk, not PROPER SciFi at all), I can think of very few SciFi authors from Back in the Day who had more than a rudimentary way with words.
I'm also acutely aware of the fact that most of Asimov's stuff was mediocre or worse, conceptually as well as stylistically speaking. None of this mitigates the fact that Will Smith's I, Robot is the sixth sign of the apocalypse(The other five were all "Ernest" movies). I mean, honestly, it wasn't even based on anything by Asimov, they just nabbed the title to try and dupe the unwary into watching it.

tinkthank

July 21st, 2004, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tinkthank:
The beauty of Starship Troopers was that it was camp; it made Heinlein into something enjoyable.If, by "making into something enjoyable", you mean "gutting of all previously existing substance", then yeah, that's true.

However, catering to the lowest common denominator does not make for a truly good product....it just makes for crap that is quickly forgotten. In 20 years, the book will live on. The movie will be forgotten. <hr /></blockquote>Substance? Heinlein with Substance? Please!

I said the film was "camp"; I like camp; camp is enjoyable. Camp is crap. Sometimes, this is good. (Think: "Buckaroo Banzai"). Camp is useless. Tom Stoppard once said of some of his plays that they are like a golden Mickey Mouse statue: completely useless, but somehow cute.
I like that sometimes when it is clever; Starship Troopers was clever. (No, not the hack-n-slash bits, but the rather clever and ironic way in which war and dogmatism were portrayed; it was a very nice parody of American fachism.) Starship Troopers is thus a valid dystopian criticism of Heinlein's weak and uncritical optimism. I would think that you, of all people, Norfleet, would appreciate that!

Asimov at least had a couple of ideas; these, however, were and are much better found elsewhere.

Arryn

July 21st, 2004, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />That's what so great about KotOR: it has a real plot, great characters, and the only people trying to kill you are scripted to do so for logical (plot) reasons. No random (stupid) mayhem. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif KOTOR had several planets with extremely hostile and violent wildlife that displayed incredible resilience to being shot. I'm also pretty sure they showed up more or less randomly for the sole purpose of mayhem, since I'm pretty thorough about clearing things out behind me, and when I came back out of a dead-end passage, there were more of them. But I feel a little bit of random mayhem every now and then is a healthy thing. <hr /></blockquote>If you'll reread my posting a wee bit more carefully, you might notice I said "people" when referring to random mayhem. Not critters. KotOR doesn't have such things as random dark jedi (random ninjas) or wandering random stormtroopers.

The critters outdoors on Dantooine do respawn, as do the mutant ghoul thingies on the first planet.

Arryn

July 21st, 2004, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
I can think of very few SciFi authors from Back in the Day who had more than a rudimentary way with words.Try Frank Herbert.

Heinlein, Asimov, and Clarke (as has been mentioned by Leif) were full of interesting ideas that they wrapped into stories. Asimov and Clarke weren't particularly good writers, but they were prolific and intriguing. Heinlein, I must disagree, did write decent novels. Especially his non-children's books. It's just that his style doesn't appeal to everyone. Just as I know people (who I think are culturally blind) who don't care for G.R.R. Martin or Steven Erikson (yes, odd as that may be to believe).

Norfleet

July 21st, 2004, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
If you'll reread my posting a wee bit more carefully, you might notice I said "people" when referring to random mayhem. Not critters. KotOR doesn't have such things as random dark jedi (random ninjas) or wandering random stormtroopers.Actually, I'm pretty sure the final level did. I remember ducking into a room to catch a breather, after making sure everything looked cleared, and coming out to find that a MILE WIDE MASS of "wandering random Stormtroopers" had set up shop there. This happened multiple times, so I can only figure they were random, respawning hordes.

Arryn

July 21st, 2004, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Actually, I'm pretty sure the final level did. I remember ducking into a room to catch a breather, after making sure everything looked cleared, and coming out to find that a MILE WIDE MASS of "wandering random Stormtroopers" had set up shop there. This happened multiple times, so I can only figure they were random, respawning hordes. The station had areas that would keep spawning bots until you destroyed all the bot generators in that zone. And there were areas that would keep spawning troopers and jedi until you did something else. They weren't exactly random as it was quite predictable. Since you had no way to seal doors, and it was a HUGE station, it made sense that reinforcements would keep showing up to slow your progress.

Norfleet

July 21st, 2004, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
Since you had no way to seal doors, and it was a HUGE station, it made sense that reinforcements would keep showing up to slow your progress. Well, yeah, that reasoning makes sense, up until (and I tried to keep out) you've killed about about 500,000 of them. It took several days.

Arryn

July 21st, 2004, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Well, yeah, that reasoning makes sense, up until (and I tried to keep out) you've killed about about 500,000 of them. It took several days. So sad. You must not be very good at this sort of thing. Only took me a few minutes. You really should have paid closer attention to your instructors at the Jedi academy ...

Norfleet

July 22nd, 2004, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
So sad. You must not be very good at this sort of thing. Only took me a few minutes. You really should have paid closer attention to your instructors at the Jedi academy ... And miss out on some perfectly good wanton and indiscriminate carnage at the very end of the game? I don't think so!

Vicious Love

July 22nd, 2004, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
Try Frank Herbert.Inventor of the beefswelling. Nonetheless, point taken. Dune just never springs to mind when I think of SciFi. Personal bias, coupled with repressed trauma. Both Herbert and Tolkien took a real dive in writing quality after they changed their first names.

Heinlein, Asimov, and Clarke (as has been mentioned by Leif) were full of interesting ideas that they wrapped into stories.

And how! Though Asimov did have a tendency to repeat himself, hence my assertion that much of his stuff wasn't all that good, conceptually. His best was brilliant, though.
Clarke had this distressing tendency to occasionally try and focus on the narrative, which really wasn't his forte. His nonfiction is usually much better than his fiction.

Heinlein, I must disagree, did write decent novels.

Actually agreed. For some reason, I felt it'd be splitting hairs to digress any more than I already was. My bad.

I know people (who I think are culturally blind) who don't care for G.R.R. Martin

Heh. The only author who kills off major characters in footnotes and appendices. What's not to like?

Vicious Love

July 22nd, 2004, 05:15 AM

Getting back on topic, again, how's everyone here feel about Dungeon Keeper and Giants: Citizen Kabuto?

Update: Also, what's everyone's favorite Ultima? I dug The Black Gate, personally, and my left eye still twitches when anyone mentions Ascension.

[ July 22, 2004, 04:18: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

Arryn

July 22nd, 2004, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
Giants: Citizen Kabuto?Utter piece of crap. Another one of those moronic games, inspired by early consoles, where you could not save in mid-mission. Given how hard this game is, it makes it impossible to play for anyone who's not a total twitch-game fanatic. I could never even complete the first level. Shame, given that it had great graphics for its time. Which only strengthens my earlier point that graphics alone do not make for a good game. Some attention must be paid to the UI as well (not to mention the even more important elements of plot, etc.).

Leif_-

July 22nd, 2004, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
Inventor of the beefswelling. Nonetheless, point taken. Dune just never springs to mind when I think of SciFi.Well, stylistically I'd say that Dune is really more of a fantasy epic than science fiction - but Herbert did write other books than Dune (good luck in finding any, though.) Personally, I'm rather fond of "Whipping Star" - but I'll admit that I'm not sure if it's a guilty pleasure or not. It's a rather quirky little book.

Arryn

July 22nd, 2004, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Leif_-:
I'm rather fond of "Whipping Star" - but I'll admit that I'm not sure if it's a guilty pleasure or not. It's a rather quirky little book. Quirky, yes. The Bureau of Sabotage, charged with slowing down the wheels of government. Nevermind the intriguing alien race "Caleban". The book is well worth digging around in used bookstores (or better yet, Online) to find an old copy.

Not as amusing or quite as well-written is his Last full-length novel, The White Plague, whose plot was scary in '82, and even more scary today.

Also recommended is "The Dosadi Experiment", which is in reprint BTW. Go to Amazon or B&N to read synopsis and reviews on it.

The above 3 books, plus of course Dune, are IMO his best works. I pretty much have all his books (I've been reading Herbert and other classic SF/fantasy authors since the early 70s) but these are the ones I most enjoyed.

[ July 22, 2004, 09:38: Message edited by: Arryn ]

littlemute

July 22nd, 2004, 04:53 PM

Is this just for computer games?

RPG: Morrowind (it has it's flaws though)

TBS: Jagged Alliance 2, Dominions 2, Master of Orion, Emperor of the Fading Suns

Wargames: Close Combat Series is simply the best, and really changed the way I thought about combat in general.

RTS: Warcraft 3, TA gets an honorable mention but I'd rather play Close Combat then wade through 16-20 hours for one game on a metal world because my flash tank rush didn't work. And the sea battles? Yeeech!

FPS: Quake 3. Still the best for straight up Deathmatch. I love UT200* as well, but...

Management games: Patrician 3, King of Dragon Pass

Fighting Games: Guilty Gear XX:reload, Last Blade 2 (still the best), Tobal 2, King of Fighters 2003.

MMORPG: What a waste of time.

littlemute

July 22nd, 2004, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:

The above 3 books, plus of course Dune, are IMO his best works. I pretty much have all his books (I've been reading Herbert and other classic SF/fantasy authors since the early 70s) but these are the ones I most enjoyed. I liked the Jesus Incident, but could barely plod through Hellstrom's Hive. It was just so cheesy like a very bad Xfiles show (were there any good ones that weren't totaly derivative?). Some of the other Dune books were of questionable merit, though good fun all 'round.

One thing you MUST read in sci fi is "Roadside Picnic." I think it could be the best sci fi story I've ever read and it follows the law of sci fi that the better it is the more difficult it is to find in print...

Arryn

July 22nd, 2004, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by littlemute:
I liked the Jesus Incident, but could barely plod through Hellstrom's Hive. It was just so cheesy like a very bad Xfiles show (were there any good ones that weren't totaly derivative?). Some of the other Dune books were of questionable merit, though good fun all 'round.You'll find in reading old SF/fantasy books (from 30+ years ago) that many of them will appear "cheesy" in light of our "more sophisticated" modern viewpoint, just as you would watching TV shows from the same decades. Also, there are very few authors (Feist immediately comes to mind) whose every book is a masterpiece. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

BTW, you'll note that I did not mention Hive when I listed my recommendations. heh http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Graeme Dice

July 22nd, 2004, 05:18 PM

RPG: BG2, Betrayal at Krondor, Fallout 1&2, Planescape Torment

RTS: Freedom Force, Myth 2

TBS: Dom 2, XCOM:UFO, VGA-Planets

FPS: Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force

MMO: Ultima Online used to be the best

Vicious Love

July 23rd, 2004, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by Arryn:
Utter piece of crap. Also originally posted by Arryn:
I could never even complete the first level.No comment.

Update: Besides which, the multiplayer was the best bit. Though SP still kicked a great deal of imported ***.

[ July 23, 2004, 05:52: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

numskully

July 23rd, 2004, 07:57 AM

what about Silent Storm? that was a great game (only flaw was no mp).