Draconian Mod Under construction [Archive]

Thilock_Dominus

July 20th, 2004, 03:14 PM

http://thilockdominus.freehomepage.com/images/lofd.jpg

Currently I'm working on a mod which makes a Draconian playable race. Also with uniqued weapons, armor and spells will be added. At the moment I'm calling the mod 'Draco'.

My thoughts on a Draconian race will be more diffrent from the summoning draconians which I'm also going to change with this mod.
It's gonna be a strong race but expensive. No archery or Cavelries and the troops don't uses shields with exeption for one of the units. Main weapon: Spear, pikes, Helbards and staffs.
Magic Paths: Fire, Air and a little Astral. Priest magic: Average. The Draconians will be added with some cool abilities instead.

I'll post a little bit later which kind of units and heroes I made....Just tweaking some of them a little bit to fit nicely.

Ideas, critics, suggestions are welcome.

Best regards
Thilock

[ August 01, 2004, 09:30: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Endoperez

July 20th, 2004, 03:36 PM

Illwinter's first game, Conquest of Elysium, had dwarves, elves and draconians as playable races, among others. There the draconians recembled your description quite well, some were immune to cold, others to fire, third had poisonous attack... Unfortunately, you cannot play as them in the demo.

Are the magics all on the same mage? If not, how are they divided? How expensive mages are, and are their forces closer to Jotuns than to humans?

Thilock_Dominus

July 20th, 2004, 03:51 PM

Unfortunately I havn't try Conquest of Elysium :/...but it sounds cool. Ahem....back to the questions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif : One of the priest Called as simple as Temple Priest, it's a combo, It have Astral, air and holy magics and cost at the moment: 350 gold and 30 resources. Then we have a Draconian Elder which have: Fire, air and one random, prize: 290 gold/ 18 resources. So they magic paths a little spread. The only paths which all magic Users have is air with execption for the 'Arcane Changling which all magic paths are random.

Thilock

Boron

July 20th, 2004, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:
Unfortunately I havn't try Conquest of Elysium :/...but it sounds cool. Ahem....back to the questions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif : One of the priest Called as simple as Temple Priest, it's a combo, It have Astral, air and holy magics and cost at the moment: 350 gold and 30 resources. Then we have a Draconian Elder which have: Fire, air and one random, prize: 290 gold/ 18 resources. So they magic paths a little spread. The only paths which all magic Users have is air with execption for the 'Arcane Changling which all magic paths are random.

Thilock sounds very nice .
i am looking forward to your mod because i like draconians .
they were my favourite race in aow 2 shadow magic too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Thilock_Dominus

July 20th, 2004, 06:26 PM

Thanks Boron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . The Draconians was my Favorite race too in AOW2.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the draconians will have a "hero" called 'Changeling' which can assassinate other heroes.

The little story behind 'Changeling' and 'Arcane Changling' are some of the Draconian eggs was redicated with magic rediation and change the DNA of these draconian. this make them possible to change appearance (Awe(1), and illusion)

Thilock

Thilock_Dominus

July 20th, 2004, 09:21 PM

As promised I'll post some of the units that are complete on the paper.

Normal Commanders which will also be present in province defense:

Draconian Commander
HP: 14 PROT: 10 MORALE: 13 MIR: 12 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 1
STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 11 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (50), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25) Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Iron Dragon Spear (602), Bite (20)

Armour: Ring Mail (6), Helmet (20)

Cost: 150 gold/10 resources

Draconian Lord
HP: 15 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MIR: 14 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 1
STR: 13 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (75), Flying

General: Expert Leader (50) Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Falchion (10), Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail (7), Helmet (20), Round Shield (2)

Cost : 180 gold/ 18 resources

Next are Wizard like:

Draconian Apprentice
HP: 10 PROT: 2 MORALE: 12 MIR: 13 ENC: 4 AP: 9 Move: 1
STR: 8 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 11

Abilities: 2 Fire, 1 Air, Mountain Survival, Fire res (25), Flying.

General: Poor Leader (10) Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Dagger (9), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost : 130 gold/ 5 resources

Draconian Elder
HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MIR: 15 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 1
STR: 12 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 13

Abilities: 3 Fire, 3 Air, 1 E. Random, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival.
Fire res (75), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25) Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (604), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 290 gold/ 18 resources

Temple units, can only be bought if temple is present:

Temple Servant
HP: 10 PROT: 5 MORALE: 12 MIR: 13 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 10 ATT: 9 DF: 8 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 Holy, 2 Air, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res (50)
Holy, Heal, Flying, Female

General: Poor Leader (10) Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Ritual Dagger (603), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost : 160 gold/ 15 Resources

Temple Priest
HP: 15 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MIR: 15 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 1
STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 14 PRE: 12

Abilities: 3 astral, 2 air, 1 random, 3 Holy, Fire Flare breath (350),
Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res: (75), Holy, Heal

General: Good Leader (50) Item slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (601), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 350 gold/30 resources

Temple Lord
HP: 22 PROT: 10 MORALE: 16 MIR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 11 Move: 1
STR: 16 ATT: 14 DF: 16 PRE: 12

Abilities: 3 Holy, 1 Fire, Fire Flare Breath (350), Holy, Mountain Survival,
Ambidextrous (3), Fire res. (75), Heal

General: Expert Leader (75) Item Slot: 15622 + 4096

Weapon: Falchion (10), Falchion (10), Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail Armor (12), Helmet (20)

Cost : 320 gold/25 resources

Special Heroes, can only be bought at the capitol:

Changeling
HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 14 MIR: 12 ENC: 4 AP: 12 MOVE: 2
STR: 11 ATT: 12 DEF: 12 PRE: 14

Abilities: 2 air, 1 Fire, Flying, Fire Flare breath (350), Illusion, Awe (1),
Mountain Survival, Fire res: (50), Magic Being, Spy, Assassinate.
Ambidextrous (2)

General: No leading, Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: 2x dagger (9), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 250 gold/25 resources

Arcane Changeling
HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 14 MIR: 15 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 10 ATT: 11 DEF: 10 PRE: 13

Abilities: 6 x Random magic, Flying, Fire Flare breath (350), Illusion, Awe (1),
Mountainsurvival, Fire res: (75), Magic Being, Spy

General: Good leader (50), Good Magic leader (50), Item slot: 15622

Weapon: Arcane Staff (600), bite (20)

Armour : None

Cost : 300 gold/ 35 resources

Endoperez

July 20th, 2004, 10:26 PM

Thilock_Dominus wrote:
Changeling
Abilities: 2 air, 1 Fire, Flying, Fire Flare breath (350), Illusion, Awe (1),
Mountain Survival, Fire res: (50), Magic Being, Spy, Assassinate.
Ambidextrous (2)

Cost: 250 gold/25 resources, restricted to capitol


So you have a flying mage-assasin who is also a spy and has awe (+1) and glamour (I think you ment this). The base commander you described earlier costed 150 gold. Are you sure that Stealth, Assasination, Spy, magics of 2 and 1, awe higher than that of Dryads and Glamour are not worth more than 100 gold? His only weaknesses, when compared to base commander, are: no armor, magic being, capitol only.
One of the things I skipped, base precision of 14, makes him really evil. After researching Evocation 2 your assasin will hurl Lightning Bolts (14+ an dmg) with precision of (14+7) 21. If that is not enough, at alteration and enchantment one he has access to Fire Shield and Aim, and if given even one Fire gem he will be able to cast Sulphur Haze. So to protect your commanders from this assasin you have to give them immunity to lightning, fire and poison. This is without magic items on your assasin.

Up their cost, probably lower or get rid of the magics, lower awe to +0.

Dragon Commander
Cost: 150 gold/10 resources

Dragon Lord
Cost : 180 gold/ 18 resources
For a difference of 25 in the amount of units they can lead, 30 pieces of gold seem to be too small amount. Lord is also much better fighter than Commander. Maybe you might want to rename them to Dragon Warlord and Dragon Noble, nobles would lead 50 units but Warlords would make better thugs.

Recheck the resource values. Resources are supposed to show the value of equipment, gold the value of training+the value of the creature's abilities. Gold costs might be little too low (compare to both Caelum and Jotunheim), but resource costs vary too much. Mages take more resources than the warrior-commanders!

For almost all their mages, up their gold cost. Especially for Temple Servant, as they are holy, flying Air 2 mages and the upkeep and great mobility make up for cost. You seem to have left the price of them being Draconian out - they fly, have some natural protection, more hitpoints than weakly human mages...

One thing you have not yet written but that matters a lot is their size. Both because of supply value and for the problems they will face against swarms. Remember that wings up their size by one from what it would be without them. Also, consider giving the base units either little higher gold cost or little lower att/def than you would think they need, because the wings get on the way of fighting.

They are not coldblooded. Is this intentional? I could ask the same for poison resistance, but I fiqured that since C'tissians already fill the role of poison-resistant reptiles you decided to give that a pass.

Question about naming: why the weapons are named Dragon while their makers Draconian? Maybe Draconian or Draconic would do better. Besides, Wooden Dragon Staff seems... problematic. Maybe Dragonbone Staff? Draconian Quaterstaff? Or just Quaterstaff? Also, if something is made of iron there is no need to mention that. Iron is the common material, and only those more rare (black steel, bronze) need to be mentioned.

[ July 20, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

Thilock_Dominus

July 21st, 2004, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Endoperez:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Thilock_Dominus wrote:
Changeling
Abilities: 2 air, 1 Fire, Flying, Fire Flare breath (350), Illusion, Awe (1),
Mountain Survival, Fire res: (50), Magic Being, Spy, Assassinate.
Ambidextrous (2)

Cost: 250 gold/25 resources, restricted to capitol


So you have a flying mage-assasin who is also a spy and has awe (+1) and glamour (I think you ment this). The base commander you described earlier costed 150 gold. Are you sure that Stealth, Assasination, Spy, magics of 2 and 1, awe higher than that of Dryads and Glamour are not worth more than 100 gold? His only weaknesses, when compared to base commander, are: no armor, magic being, capitol only.
One of the things I skipped, base precision of 14, makes him really evil. After researching Evocation 2 your assasin will hurl Lightning Bolts (14+ an dmg) with precision of (14+7) 21. If that is not enough, at alteration and enchantment one he has access to Fire Shield and Aim, and if given even one Fire gem he will be able to cast Sulphur Haze. So to protect your commanders from this assasin you have to give them immunity to lightning, fire and poison. This is without magic items on your assasin.

Up their cost, probably lower or get rid of the magics, lower awe to +0.[/b]<hr /></blockquote>Yep, I meant glamour. I see the problem you mention and I'm gonna rebuild it. The Idea to give it awe and glamour was to illustrate that the changeling can change shape continuesly and adept form depending on who it's fighting. (confusing and astonishing the enemy)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Dragon Commander
Cost: 150 gold/10 resources

Dragon Lord
Cost : 180 gold/ 18 resources
For a difference of 25 in the amount of units they can lead, 30 pieces of gold seem to be too small amount. Lord is also much better fighter than Commander. Maybe you might want to rename them to Dragon Warlord and Dragon Noble, nobles would lead 50 units but Warlords would make better thugs.

Recheck the resource values. Resources are supposed to show the value of equipment, gold the value of training+the value of the creature's abilities. Gold costs might be little too low (compare to both Caelum and Jotunheim), but resource costs vary too much. Mages take more resources than the warrior-commanders!

For almost all their mages, up their gold cost. Especially for Temple Servant, as they are holy, flying Air 2 mages and the upkeep and great mobility make up for cost. You seem to have left the price of them being Draconian out - they fly, have some natural protection, more hitpoints than weakly human mages...

One thing you have not yet written but that matters a lot is their size. Both because of supply value and for the problems they will face against swarms. Remember that wings up their size by one from what it would be without them. Also, consider giving the base units either little higher gold cost or little lower att/def than you would think they need, because the wings get on the way of fighting.

They are not coldblooded. Is this intentional? I could ask the same for poison resistance, but I fiqured that since C'tissians already fill the role of poison-resistant reptiles you decided to give that a pass.

Question about naming: why the weapons are named Dragon while their makers Draconian? Maybe Draconian or Draconic would do better. Besides, Wooden Dragon Staff seems... problematic. Maybe Dragonbone Staff? Draconian Quaterstaff? Or just Quaterstaff? Also, if something is made of iron there is no need to mention that. Iron is the common material, and only those more rare (black steel, bronze) need to be mentioned. [/qb]<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the suggestions,Endoperez http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
The Draconians going to have size as same as Caelum.

The naming issue why I've choosed Dragon instead of Draconic or Draconian is that the Draconians are related to the dragon race and their weapons are decorated and/or with dragon figures, like the wooden dragon staff which is a normal staff with a dragon head carved at the top of the staff. Also I'm gonna make new Version of these staff that can be forged which have diffrent abilities dam etc.

Thanks for the critics I need that to make this race better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

best regards
Thilock

Edit: The Coldblooded, poison res. issue: I thought of it, but somehow I found it in contrast with coldblooded and mountain survival.

[ July 21, 2004, 06:18: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Thilock_Dominus

July 31st, 2004, 02:13 PM

Like the Idea, Boron.

1 storm flying air dragon , 1 flying fire dragon , 1 not flying but tough earth dragon , 1 flying ice dragon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Do you mean Dragon or draconian? Wouldn't it be to overpowered to give draconian race fullblooded dragons?

Edit: updated the the mod banner

[ July 31, 2004, 13:16: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Thilock_Dominus

August 1st, 2004, 01:19 AM

I need some help with a good nation name for the Draconian based race. I'm totally blank. The ones I came up with is something like Dracondia, dracusia.

I'll soon post the whole units and commanders list.

Boron

August 1st, 2004, 01:41 AM

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Draconian Commander
HP: 14 PROT: 10 MORALE: 13 MIR: 12 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 1
STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 11 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (50), Flying

just that one unit as example :
i think with move you mean strategic movement .
you have a couple of flying units with movement 1 statistic so far .

if you really mean strategic movement with that then it is pretty worthless .
you still can only move 1 province / turn then .
so for strategic movement the flying ability is in vain .

in battle it will still be helpful .
but it depends whether your troops are flying through storm too ( don't know if this is a modcommand i am unfortunately a modding newbie ) or not . so when your draconians really have only 1 strategic move and not the ability to fly during storm in early-late midgame their flying ability will be even almost useless in battle with one staff of storm the enemy uses .

so an suggestion by me :
all flyers should have strat move 2 , this way they are still quite mobile but not as mobile as mictlan midgame demon / vampire armies with strat move 3 or caelum .
because your troops are stronger than caelums most likely which is thematically absolutely needed for draconians http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2 strategic move would be a good choice i think .

furthermore you should make all draconians unable to fly during storm but 1-2 ones :
an air/storm dragon unit and perhaps one air/storm dragon leader .

perhaps you can make 4 kinds of dragons ( like in gothic 2 ) : 1 storm flying air dragon , 1 flying fire dragon , 1 not flying but tough earth dragon , 1 flying ice dragon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

or if it is possible you could mod 3-4 of my above mentioned dragon kinds as special nation only summon spells like tien chi's celestial soldiers .

anyways looking really forward to your mod .
unfortunately i am no good name giver too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
my names would either be plagiarism from e.g. d&d / dsa or boring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

WraithLord

August 1st, 2004, 11:53 AM

maybe you can give dragons a very high gold cost to balance them, something like 800-1100 gold. It might be thematic, after all dragons are known from their love of traesures. They may lend their help to the draconian race for huge soms of gold.

Also you might want to consider a small HP increase to all units/comanders (accompanied by some small increase in cost).
I suppose a draconian race should be physically strong.

looking forward to your complete mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thilock_Dominus

August 1st, 2004, 06:37 PM

Boron

I'm not sure if it's possible to give a specific nation some specific spells yet, I'm gonna check when I'm home. Still alot of modding codes aren't avaible at the moment :/...So some of the things I have to add when Illwinter patches Dom2 (I hope they release another patch soon with some cool codes).

You convinced me to put the dragons into the nation, atleast to see how it works.
1. The dragons gonna be expensive.
2. Only recruitable in the capitol.
3. Not stronger than the Pretender dragons.

Also I was thinking of making Pseudo-dragons (a l� BGII ^_^) Some very cute-pink-fluffy-bunny-like http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , very weak creatures with blur...only I thought, dunno if I'm gonna make them.

finally if you plan in future a second mod :
if adding a theme is possible you could add the following theme :
corrupted & broken draconian empire :
there an evil dracolich pretender has taken over the draconian empire . now all draconians became undead and demoniac spoiled by the evil aura of the dracolich pretender god .
now the elemental dragons from base draconian nation are replaced by undead dragon/draconians , undead draco lichs and demon dragons/draconians .
they focus on blood + death Hehehe...I had the same toughts when i started this mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ....when it's possible and I finished this one, i'll add it as a theme http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

best regards
Thilock

[ August 01, 2004, 17:37: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Thilock_Dominus

August 1st, 2004, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by izaqyos:
maybe you can give dragons a very high gold cost to balance them, something like 800-1100 gold. It might be thematic, after all dragons are known from their love of traesures. They may lend their help to the draconian race for huge soms of gold.

Also you might want to consider a small HP increase to all units/comanders (accompanied by some small increase in cost).
I suppose a draconian race should be physically strong.

looking forward to your complete mod http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Tahnks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The standard Draconian gonna have HP: 14 and str: 12, magic Usersand priest a little less, heroes and commanders a bit more. You think it need more?

best regards
Thilock

Sandman

August 1st, 2004, 07:27 PM

What weaknesses does this race have?

I can see gold cost as being the major one, but that's about it.

Is it really necessary to have their mages be amongst the most powerful in the game? Their most basic mage is quite powerful already, and they have a staggering THREE top-tier mages.

How many other nations have access to lvl 3 (excluding holy) in three different magic paths, with NONE of those mages being capital only?
And the arcane changeling effectively gives them access to all paths of magic. Way, way too powerful.

At the very least, you should remove the astral mage. Having lvl 3 in astral is not 'a little astral' like you say in your first post. Fire and air is plenty, and astral mages are very common anyway.

Thilock_Dominus

August 1st, 2004, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Sandman:
[QB] What weaknesses does this race have?
1. Expensive units/commanders
2. No archers.
3. No mounting/Cavalry.
4. Only one kind of units uses shield.
5. Units don't wear helmets execpt commanders which can forge them, but none at the start.
6. Some of the units are restricted to the capitol.
7. Can't command undead units.

Is it really necessary to have their mages be amongst the most powerful in the game? Their most basic mage is quite powerful already, and they have a staggering THREE top-tier mages.

How many other nations have access to lvl 3 (excluding holy) in three different magic paths, with NONE of those mages being capital only?
And the arcane changeling effectively gives them access to all paths of magic. Way, way too powerful.It's already taken care off, It's an "old" list. I'll post a newer one soon.

About the 'Arcane Changeling', the six random is limited to the elements (No death, nature or astral) and are limited to recruitable in the capitol. I think it is one of the funniest creation I came up with. You buy something and don't know which magic paths it will have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Also it's more expensive than shown in the 'old' list.

best regards
Thilock

Endoperez

August 1st, 2004, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

1. Expensive units/commanders
2. No archers.
3. No mounting/Cavalry.
4. Only one kind of units uses shield.
5. Units don't wear helmets execpt commanders which can forge them, but none at the start.
6. Some of the units are restricted to the capitol.
7. Can't command undead units.
3. They have fliers. What do you need cavalry for?
4. Shield is slight prot/def. bonus plus prot. versus missiles. Scales are small prot. bonus, air magic in general is great against enemy missiles. Even without using storm you can cast Arrow Fend.
5. Helmet is small armor boost, scales are small armor boost. No helmets and no shields have slight effect together even over scales, but commanders unable to wield helmets would be much better restriction IMO.
6 and 7: This is the basic way! Normally the most powerful mages and/or units (often these are sacred) are restricted to capitol, and no nation except for few special ones have or should have undead commanders for free.
Having no access to either Death or Blood prevents them from commanding undead and demons, but how would they get them in the first place? And pretender having Death 4 can summon Revenants (D1), give them skull staff and skullface (+D * 2) and summon Mound King to lead the units...

Also, what was the nation you are replacing? C'tis, Caelum, Jotunheim, Ermor and maybe few others have special units available from the spell Reanimation. (Broken Emp.) Ermor always reanimates
longdead velites and/or legionaires, Jotunheim undead giants half the time, Caelum and C'tis sometimes but I'm not sure about the exact number.
Might be the same � as with Jotuns. Soulless from Carrion Reanimation are affected too, atleast when playing Jotunheim. Then you have all giants. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

About the 'Arcane Changeling', the six random is limited to the elements (No death, nature or astral) and are limited to recruitable in the capitol. I think it is one of the funniest creation I came up with. You buy something and don't know which magic paths it will have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Also it's more expensive than shown in the 'old' list.

best regards
Thilock Six randoms in four paths of magic? He ALWAYS has ATLEAST 2211, often three in one and you can reliably get 4 at mid- to late game. Also, you need maximum of 3 for elem. magic booster, and so can easily forge Staff of Elemental Masteries... And find all the elemental sites!
I have studied my Randoms -mathbook, and would post the spesific numbers if I were able to calculate them. No luck yet. However, 4 randoms would be much, and even 3 would fill the part you gave for them. Take a look at Arco Mystics.

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 12:34 AM

lets just wait until the first beta comes out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

after that i suggest you make a new thread where balance issues can be stated http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Originally posted by Endoperez :

Six randoms in four paths of magic? He ALWAYS has ATLEAST 2211, often three in one and you can reliably get 4 at mid- to late game. Also, you need maximum of 3 for elem. magic booster, and so can easily forge Staff of Elemental Masteries... And find all the elemental sites!
I have studied my Randoms -mathbook, and would post the spesific numbers if I were able to calculate them. No luck yet. However, 4 randoms would be much, and even 3 would fill the part you gave for them. Take a look at Arco Mystics.
6 randoms might be a bit high yeah . but if they have "only" access to elemental magic and are capitol only perhaps not too strong .

a "trick" to make you chose could be giving them really the 6 elemental randoms but only a base research of 1-2 .

so you have to chose whether you gamble for e.g. air 4 or you want research .

as soon as you find sages this is of course rather unimportant . but you can't 100% rely on sages .

but just lets see how the mod turns out in the beta Version . still strong looking forward to the first beta http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

if serious imbalances become obvious they still can be changed after the beta by e.g. reducing the randoms to 4 and giving 2 base paths e.g. EW .

Blitz

August 2nd, 2004, 12:44 AM

Obviously there's really been no attempt to balance this mod. I don't think he's trying to make the race playable in multiplayer... obviously his units are too cheap, too powerful, and too versitile. Clearly this is a single-player race to be played for fun.

If that wasn't the intention, then I would point out that the race is terribly unbalanced. It surpases or equals several races in their "theme". It's a more powerful astral nation than Arcoscephale. It's a better flying nation than Caelum. It has better random magic than Tiern Chi S&A.

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:
Like the Idea, Boron.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />1 storm flying air dragon , 1 flying fire dragon , 1 not flying but tough earth dragon , 1 flying ice dragon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Do you mean Dragon or draconian? Wouldn't it be to overpowered to give draconian race fullblooded dragons?

Edit: updated the the mod banner <hr /></blockquote>i don't know if it is possible with modding but i thought of giving these dragons to the draconian race as national nation specific spells with gemcost .
like the summon celestial soldiers spell from base tien chi .

if that is impossible then i share izaqyos
idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
i would make them then very expensive draconian units or better leaders . like the niefel jarls of jotunheim niefelheim but even more expensive :
500-1500 gold cost depending on their strengths .
what slots such dragons should have then is of course a problem . because a niefel jarl has all slots and for the dragons it's not thematic that they have arm + feet slots at least .

so if such a dragon costs then 1000 or 1500 gold he would need then superior stats to a jotunheim niefel jarl because consider the following scenario :
the dragon costs 1500 gold but no arm + feet slots .
so you fully euqip the missing slots .

the jotunplayer then fully euqips 3 jotun jarls with AN - weapons . with their high strength the jotun jarls will do at least 50 damage per hit http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

so my idea : give the dragons regeneration + very high hp ( 500-1000 ) . but no arm , feet and armor slots . protection between 10-25 .

this way they still can be swarmed by hordes of fodder and get damaged but they will give them a good fight . the high gold costs are prohibitive .
you won't have more than 1-2 dragon in the first 20 turns .
1500 gold for a nonsacred unit is 100 upkeep !
furthermore the dragons need a mr of about 20 ( like a doom horror ) .
otherwise it would be too frustrating seeing them getting killed repeatedly by soul slaying rylheh/arco/pythium mages .

so the dragons will really be terrible enemies but you won't see more than 1-2 in the first 20-30 turns .

you could economically weaken the draconians a bit ( if it is possible by modding commands ) by not allowing them higher scales then :
order 0 productivity 0 .
that would be very thematic too . dragons have more important things to do then to care about economy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

finally if you plan in future a second mod :
if adding a theme is possible you could add the following theme :
corrupted & broken draconian empire :
there an evil dracolich pretender has taken over the draconian empire . now all draconians became undead and demoniac spoiled by the evil aura of the dracolich pretender god .
now the elemental dragons from base draconian nation are replaced by undead dragon/draconians , undead draco lichs and demon dragons/draconians .
they focus on blood + death

Thilock_Dominus

August 2nd, 2004, 06:13 AM

LOTD (Land Of The Dragonkin) is meant for SP, I havn't heard or seen a MP with mod(s), correct me if I'm wrong. Though if lots of people are requesting it for multiplayer and will gladly use it for that purpose I won't hesistate to make an another Version of it or make the changes in the original.

Originally posted by Blitz:
Obviously there's really been no attempt to balance this mod.Didn't you read my statement that you can't rely on the old list?

As Boron stated, wait with the big-balance-issue untill the first beta release or atleast to I have posted the new unit list.

LOTD gonna replace Atlantis, but people can change that easely if they want to.

best regards
Thilock

[ August 02, 2004, 07:15: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Thilock_Dominus

August 2nd, 2004, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Blitz:
If that wasn't the intention, then I would point out that the race is terribly unbalanced. It surpases or equals several races in their "theme". It's a more powerful astral nation than Arcoscephale. It's a better flying nation than Caelum. It has better random magic than Tiern Chi S&A. 1. Only one hero(Temple priest) got astral magic, which is reduced to two, also I've removed the 1 random it had. Cost 420 gold

2. Caelum can s-move 3 while the draconians can only s-move 2, also the elite army of Draconians (The temple Lord and Temple guards) can't fly.

3. Perhaps the draconians have higher random magic than T'ien C'hi, but look at it in this way: Arcane Changeling is capitol restricted, all of its magic is random so you can't build up a thoughtfull strategy and put it to use. You have to buy it (spending alot of gold) and then see where it fits. It's gambling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ...and how much money would a player use on an unit they don't really know turns out?

4. It's an expensive race, means you are using alot of money to buy some few units, also expensive units have high upkeep that keep the player to have fewer units.
Fewer units = Easely overun by the enemy.
If the enemy have trample units like mammoth, you are really on deep water, it will maul down the expensive draconian units

best regards
Thilock

[ August 02, 2004, 07:05: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Sindai

August 2nd, 2004, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:
1. Only one hero(Temple priest) got astral magic, which is reduced to two, also I've removed the 1 random it had. Cost 420 goldWhy is the astral there at all, though? it doesn't fit with the rest of their magic. Heck, even the other magic-Users in that "family" of units don't get any astral. It really doesn't make any sense and detracts from the symmetry of the design.

3. Perhaps the draconians have higher random magic than T'ien C'hi, but look at it in this way: Arcane Changeling is capitol restricted, all of its magic is random so you can't build up a thoughtfull strategy and put it to use. You have to buy it (spending alot of gold) and then see where it fits. It's gambling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ...and how much money would a player use on an unit they don't really know turns out?It's really not much of a gamble. You're guaranteed low of medium levels in all 4 elements, or a high level in one. That alone is pretty useful.

But that's not really the main problem with the unit. It has the same primary problem as the astral priest: why is it there? It doesn't seem to fit the fire-wind theme. Acro and Spring and Autumn are practically built around hefty random-magic units, this one just seems to have been tacked on for the heck of it. I would drop the unit altogether.

Overall, the Draconians seem to suffer from kitchen sink syndrone. I think the mages should perhaps be focused a little more, and I like the idea of capital-only recruitable dragons (less powerful than the pretender dragons, but still very good). Also, maybe increase the armor and resource costs of most of their units. I think a neat theme to go for would be a combination of Abyssia (slow, tough, fire-Users) and Caelum (quick, weak, air-Users). You'd end up with a medium-speed, medium-power flying race with the dragons as a really unique feature.

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Endoperez:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
About the 'Arcane Changeling', the six random is limited to the elements (No death, nature or astral) and are limited to recruitable in the capitol. I think it is one of the funniest creation I came up with. You buy something and don't know which magic paths it will have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Also it's more expensive than shown in the 'old' list.

best regards
Thilock Six randoms in four paths of magic? He ALWAYS has ATLEAST 2211, often three in one and you can reliably get 4 at mid- to late game. Also, you need maximum of 3 for elem. magic booster, and so can easily forge Staff of Elemental Masteries... And find all the elemental sites!
I have studied my Randoms -mathbook, and would post the spesific numbers if I were able to calculate them. No luck yet. However, 4 randoms would be much, and even 3 would fill the part you gave for them. Take a look at Arco Mystics. <hr /></blockquote>hm i think 6 elemental random is nice :

probability for 3+ in one skill :
probability for 6 + probability for 5 + probability for 4 + probability for 3 =
1/4 to the power of 6 + 1/4 to the power of 5 x 3/4 + 1/4 to the power of 4 x 3/4 to the power of 2 + 1/4 to the power of 3 x 3/4 to the power of 3 = 1/4096 + 3/4096 + 9/4096 + 27/4096 = 5/512 probability total for 3+ in one path .

that is by no way too powerful . you can say only ~ 1 of 100 random 6 elemental mages has a power of 3 or greater in one path .
only about every 3rd of these has a power of 4 or greater in one path so about 1 of 300 of these mages has a power of 4 or greater in one path .

Turms

August 2nd, 2004, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Boron:

probability for 3+ in one skill :
probability for 6 + probability for 5 + probability for 4 + probability for 3 =
1/4 to the power of 6 + 1/4 to the power of 5 x 3/4 + 1/4 to the power of 4 x 3/4 to the power of 2 + 1/4 to the power of 3 x 3/4 to the power of 3 = 1/4096 + 3/4096 + 9/4096 + 27/4096 = 5/512 probability total for 3+ in one path .

that is by no way too powerful . you can say only ~ 1 of 100 random 6 elemental mages has a power of 3 or greater in one path .
only about every 3rd of these has a power of 4 or greater in one path so about 1 of 300 of these mages has a power of 4 or greater in one path . Sorry but your maths is way off. The real number is actually that around 65% of mages are 3+. Around 14% even are 4+ in one area.

You can think like this. When you have distributed 5 randoms in the worst possible way you have a 2111 mage. So the minimum for 3+ is 25% http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I can post the maths if someone is really interested. Anyways 6 random elemantals is way too powerful IMHO.

liga

August 2nd, 2004, 04:13 PM

In your analysises you have forgotten the permutations ... so for a SPECIFIC path you have

6+ 1/4 to the power of 6 ~ 0.02%
5+ 1/4 ^ 5 * 3/4 ~ 0.07 % times 6 ~ 0.4 %
4+ 1/4 ^ 4 * 3/4 ^ 2 ~ 0.2% times 15 ~ 3.3 %
3+ 1/4 ^ 3 * 3/4 ^ 3 ~ 0.7 % times 20 ~ 13.1 %

so it means that you have 13.1 + 3.3 + 0.4 ~ 17 %

to have a mage that is at least 3 in a single path ... if you are not insterested in a specific path it is 68 % ...

so more that 2 mage every 3 are at least 3+ in something with a 6 elemental random ... too strong!

good play
Liga

Post Edited: ooops ... I have seen only now the Last post

[ August 02, 2004, 15:16: Message edited by: liga ]

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 04:38 PM

thnx liga & turms .

i should have looked in my statistics book before i post this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

5+ 1/4 ^ 5 * 3/4 ~ 0.07 % times 6 ~ 0.4 %
4+ 1/4 ^ 4 * 3/4 ^ 2 ~ 0.2% times 15 ~ 3.3 %
3+ 1/4 ^ 3 * 3/4 ^ 3 ~ 0.7 % times 20 ~ 13.1 %

liga could you please share how you come to 6 , 15 and 20 times exactly ?

Thilock_Dominus

August 2nd, 2004, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Sindai:
Why is the astral there at all, though? it doesn't fit with the rest of their magic. Heck, even the other magic-Users in that "family" of units don't get any astral. It really doesn't make any sense and detracts from the symmetry of the design....and again why do the C'tis have astral?
When I made my first thoughts on how a Draconian Temple priest would be like was a priest who can bless the troops and see beyond the matrial world (astral magic). That's the thoughts that came up when I tried to imagine how such person would be like. An old draconian with a staff, wise and noble, marked by the years. Dressed in extravegant(sp?) robe.
So I fail to see your point. Alot of the nations have 2 major magic paths and a minor one that doesn't spoil their themes IMHO.

It's really not much of a gamble. You're guaranteed low of medium levels in all 4 elements, or a high level in one. That alone is pretty useful.

But that's not really the main problem with the unit. It has the same primary problem as the astral priest: why is it there? It doesn't seem to fit the fire-wind theme. Acro and Spring and Autumn are practically built around hefty random-magic units, this one just seems to have been tacked on for the heck of it. I would drop the unit altogether.No way! The story behind why the draconians have changelings is some of the draconian eggs had suffered from magic radiation which alter the consistent of the draconian baby's DNA so their cells can change form.I know it sounds a bit star trek http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif , but a like the Idea of the a part of the draconian race suffered from the strong magic that are flowing within the mountains where they live. And afterall it's only the Arcane Changeling which have randoms and Draconian Elder which have one random.

I can't see the water-sink problem. Yes the units need some adjustments. That's the beta test for http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I'm open for critizism but I can't see your point of you... but we(Those who wants to beta test and I) just have to see how it fits before denying possible units and heroes.

best regards
Thilock

Sandman

August 2nd, 2004, 07:49 PM

Endoperez and Sindai have both made good points, and I agree with them. Apart from the gold cost, the weaknesses of this race are trivial. Their strengths are equivalent to three normal nations.

1.Flying
2.Scaly
3.Bite
4.Fire Breath
5.Fire resistance
6.Powerful mages of Fire, Air and Astral
7.Decent mage priests
8.The most flexible mage in the game, bar none. Who cares if he's capital only?
9.SC assassins.
10. Almost unlimited searching and forging opportunities.
11. Excellent province defence. Probably.

Their biting ability alone could carry a nation. There aren't that many units with multiple attacks, and they are often expensive or have limitations. These guys have a secondary attack as a racial feature. They're going to chew (literally) through the opposition. And that's just one of their minor abilities.

Thilock_Dominus

August 2nd, 2004, 07:56 PM

Here is the stats for the dragons:

Any Idea how muxh the cost should be? Or some modification?
They gonna be capitol restricted.

Storm Dragon
HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res.

Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Pyro Dragon
HP: 130 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (100), Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Fire breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Temple Dragon
HP: 135 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 14 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Holy, Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Frost breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

By the way I'm thinking on dropping the Changelings, it seems people think it's a bad Idea. What about letting a commander called 'Story Teller' replacing them. An unit with bard skills?

best regards
Thilock

Thilock_Dominus

August 2nd, 2004, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by Sandman:
Endoperez and Sindai have both made good points, and I agree with them. Apart from the gold cost, the weaknesses of this race are trivial. Their strengths are equivalent to three normal nations.

1.Flying
2.Scaly
3.Bite
4.Fire Breath
5.Fire resistance
6.Powerful mages of Fire, Air and Astral
7.Decent mage priests
8.The most flexible mage in the game, bar none. Who cares if he's capital only?
9.SC assassins.
10. Almost unlimited searching and forging opportunities.
11. Excellent province defence. Probably.

Their biting ability alone could carry a nation. There aren't that many units with multiple attacks, and they are often expensive or have limitations. These guys have a secondary attack as a racial feature. They're going to chew (literally) through the opposition. And that's just one of their minor abilities. Point taken.

johan osterman

August 2nd, 2004, 08:20 PM

Any particular reason why these dragons, unlike the pretender dragons, have the heal ability? Also so far in dom 2 the only creatures with MR 20 is Horrors, Starspawns, Abominations and Rlyeh specific pretenders, so it might be a good idea to give the dragons MR 17 or 18 instead. As the unit stands at present the draconian elder is one of the very best wizards in the game, as far as I recall there is no other nation specific recruitable wizard that stands a chance of getting 4 in 2 different magic scores, add to this that the unit is flying has good precision and has some, albeit weak, innate protection.

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Storm Dragon
HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MIR: 20 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res.

Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Thilock 2 questions first to your abbreviations :
heal is that recuperation ability ? or regeneration ?

MIR = magic resistence or ? MR would be a less misleading abbreviation i think if that really should mean magic resitence:)

for evaluation how high gold costs should be is the knowlegde of slots important ihmo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

furthermore : what are their magic path(s) ?

if they "only" have head and 2-3 misc slots and no magic path(s) the dragons should "only" cost about 300-400 nonsacred or 500-700 sacred .

if they furthermore have :
body slot : +50/100 gold cost when they are normal/sacred
per magic path point :
+25/50 gold

this way i think balance according to the jotun niefel giants etc is a bit ensured .

since dragons and giants are natural enemies and a niefel jarl has some magic abilities + all slots but "only" costs 500 sacred gold i think he is a good bench mark for the costs of dragons .

P.S. : liga would you please share how you come to exactly 6/15/20 permutations ?
for 5+ i think it is :
12 possible permutations : (A5E ,A5W ,A5F)x4 = 12

so with 6 randoms the chance for 3+ is probably even higher than you calculated .
it is a combination of 2 probabilityformulas i think .

thnx for either proving me wrong again and explaining your number of permutations or correcting it to the even higher percentages in advance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thilock_Dominus

August 2nd, 2004, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Any particular reason why these dragons, unlike the pretender dragons, have the heal ability? Also so far in dom 2 the only creatures with MR 20 is Horrors, Starspawns, Abominations and Rlyeh specific pretenders, so it might be a good idea to give the dragons MR 17 or 18 instead. As the unit stands at present the draconian elder is one of the very best wizards in the game, as far as I recall there is no other nation specific recruitable wizard that stands a chance of getting 4 in 2 different magic scores, add to this that the unit is flying has good precision and has some, albeit weak, innate protection. Some thinks it would be a good Idea with recruitable dragons to the theme.

okay I'll change the Mir to 17

The Elder is changed since the old list, it have 2 fire 2 air and 1 element random

Thilock_Dominus

August 2nd, 2004, 08:34 PM

MIR = magic resistence or ? MR would be a less misleading abbreviation i think if that really should mean magic resitence:)ooops my fault http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Edit: heal is recuperation

[ August 02, 2004, 19:38: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Any particular reason why these dragons, unlike the pretender dragons, have the heal ability? Also so far in dom 2 the only creatures with MR 20 is Horrors, Starspawns, Abominations and Rlyeh specific pretenders, so it might be a good idea to give the dragons MR 17 or 18 instead. As the unit stands at present the draconian elder is one of the very best wizards in the game, as far as I recall there is no other nation specific recruitable wizard that stands a chance of getting 4 in 2 different magic scores, add to this that the unit is flying has good precision and has some, albeit weak, innate protection. the 20 mr were my evil influence i guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
i thought because they only have like a doom horror head + 1-2 misc slots or perhaps even only 1 misc slot but cost about 800-1000 gold at least they need a high base mr .
otherwise it is just too frustrating to have a very expensive dragon for which you saved long and get it killed repeatedly e.g. by ryleh mages casting mass soul slays and the like .

my thinking was a doom horror has 20 mr , probably exactly the same slots and he is something as powerful as a dragon should be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Arryn

August 2nd, 2004, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Boron:
my thinking was a doom horror has 20 mr , probably exactly the same slots and he is something as powerful as a dragon should be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif That's where you went astray. A Doom Horror is supposed to be nastier than a dragon. Just think for a minute the sorts of images that the words "doom" and "horror" bring to mind, then consider what something called a "Doom Horror" (note the two capital letters) might be capable of. A dragon may be terrifying to behold, and capable of horrific carnage, but a creature that bringeth Doom is another order of magnitude entirely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by Arryn:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Boron:
my thinking was a doom horror has 20 mr , probably exactly the same slots and he is something as powerful as a dragon should be http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif That's where you went astray. A Doom Horror is supposed to be nastier than a dragon. Just think for a minute the sorts of images that the words "doom" and "horror" bring to mind, then consider what something called a "Doom Horror" (note the two capital letters) might be capable of. A dragon may be terrifying to behold, and capable of horrific carnage, but a creature that bringeth Doom is another order of magnitude entirely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>i just LOVE dragons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif the doom horror is a special dominions creation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
in many fantasy games dragons are really powerful .
and in dominions 3 of them are pretender gods .
so if they advance to real godhood they are much more powerful than a doom horror http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

and even with 20 mr for a dragon a doom horror is still nastier in dom 2 anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

in 1 on 1 combat he still kills Thilock's dragons mostly i think because he has higher def + attack than the dragons + his astral claws will kill the dragon in no time .

Thilock_Dominus

August 2nd, 2004, 10:03 PM

New Unit list:

C = Commander
** = Capitol restricted
*** = Need a temple
**** = Need laboratory

Temple Servant - C ***
HP: 10 PROT: 5 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 10 ATT: 9 DF: 8 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 Holy, 2 Air, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res (50)
Holy, Heal, Flying, Female

General:Poor Leader (10)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Ritual Dagger (603), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 240 gold/ 5 Resources

Temple Priest - C ***
HP: 15 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 14 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 astral, 2 air, 3 Holy, Fire Flare breath (350),
Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res: (75), Holy, Heal

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (601), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 450 gold/12 resources

Temple Lord - C
HP: 22 PROT: 10 MORALE: 16 MR: 14 ENC: 6 AP: 11 Move: 1
STR: 16 ATT: 14 DF: 16 PRE: 12

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Holy, Mountain Survival,
Ambidextrous (3), Fire res. (75), Heal

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot: 15622 + 4096

Weapon: Falchion (10), Falchion (10), Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail Armor (12)

Cost : 380 gold/35 resources

Temple Guards
HP: 16 PROT: 7 MORALE: 14 MR: 12 ENC: 4 AP:10 Move: 1
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 9

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), Holy, Heal

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Silver Scale Mail, Round shield

Cost: 70 gold/ 40 resources

-------------------------

Draconian Lord - C
HP: 16 PROT: 10 MORALE: 13 MR: 12 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 11 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (50), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Spear (602), Bite (20)

Armour: Ring Mail (6), Helmet (20)

Cost: 150 gold/18 resources

Draconian City Guards
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move : 2
STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 10 PRE: 9

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), fortress guard bonus (+2), Flying

Weapon: Draconic Halbard, bite (20)

Armour: Scale mail

Cost: 22 gold/ 10 resources

-------------------

Draconian Pyro Lord - C
HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (100), Flying

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2)

Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources

Draconian Storm Lord - C
HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Lightning Breath, Mountain Survival, Lightning res. (100), Flying

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2)

Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources

Pyro Draconians
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (75)

Weapon: Draconic Spear, bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Scale Mail

Cost: 35 gold/ 22 resources

Storm Draconians
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Shock res (75)

Weapon: Draconic Spear, bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Scale Mail

Cost : 35 gold/ 22 resources

--------------------------

Draconian Apprentice - C ****
HP: 10 PROT: 2 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 4 AP: 9 Move: 2
STR: 8 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 11

Abilities: 1 Fire, 1 Air, Mountain Survival, Fire res (25), Flying.

General: Poor Leader (10)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Draconic Dagger (9), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost : 180 gold/ 2 resources

Draconian Elder - C ****
HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 12 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 Fire, 2 Air, 1 E. Random, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival.
Fire res (75), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (604), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 360 gold/ 10 resources

----------------------------

Storm Dragon - C **
HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res.

Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Pyro Dragon - C **
HP: 130 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (100), Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Fire breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Temple Dragon - C **
HP: 135 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 14 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Holy, Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Frost breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Scout and regular infantries under construction.

[ August 02, 2004, 21:04: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 10:39 PM

first : looks good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
i post some minor problems i see :

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:
New Unit list:

C = Commander
** = Capitol restricted
*** = Need a temple
**** = Need laboratory

Temple Servant - C ***
HP: 10 PROT: 5 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 10 ATT: 9 DF: 8 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 Holy, 2 Air, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res (50)
Holy, Heal, Flying, Female

General:Poor Leader (10)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Ritual Dagger (603), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 240 gold/ 5 Resources
no problem here
Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Temple Priest - C ***
HP: 15 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 12 ATT: 10 DF: 14 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 astral, 2 air, 3 Holy, Fire Flare breath (350),
Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res: (75), Holy, Heal

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (601), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 450 gold/12 resources
2 problems here :
1: Fire res: (75) means 75% right ?
afaik there will be no possibility via items / spells then to make them 100% fire resistent .
2:450 gold cost and astral 2 : this is an invitation to many many nations to mind duel you to death . Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Temple Lord - C
HP: 22 PROT: 10 MORALE: 16 MR: 14 ENC: 6 AP: 11 Move: 1
STR: 16 ATT: 14 DF: 16 PRE: 12

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Holy, Mountain Survival,
Ambidextrous (3), Fire res. (75), Heal

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot: 15622 + 4096

Weapon: Falchion (10), Falchion (10), Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail Armor (12)

Cost : 380 gold/35 resources
i think here the cost is too high . he is flying and has "only" 10 protection . if your enemy has any x-bows 2-3 hits will surely kill him i think .

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Temple Guards
HP: 16 PROT: 7 MORALE: 14 MR: 12 ENC: 4 AP:10 Move: 1
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 9

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), Holy, Heal

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Silver Scale Mail, Round shield

Cost: 70 gold/ 40 resources
too high resource costs ihmo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
he only has 7 protection so nothing hard to forge but with 40 resource costs higher resource cost than any ulm infantry . or a better comparison unit : an caelum iceclad has 43 resource costs but iirc 18 protection for that .
so here the high gold price is already enough for balance reasons i think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

-------------------------

Draconian Lord - C
HP: 16 PROT: 10 MORALE: 13 MR: 12 ENC: 7 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 11 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (50), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Spear (602), Bite (20)

Armour: Ring Mail (6), Helmet (20)

Cost: 150 gold/18 resources

Draconian City Guards
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move : 2
STR: 14 ATT: 10 DF: 10 PRE: 9

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Fire res (50), fortress guard bonus (+2), Flying

Weapon: Draconic Halbard, bite (20)

Armour: Scale mail

Cost: 22 gold/ 10 resources

-------------------

Draconian Pyro Lord - C
HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival, Fire res. (100), Flying

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2)

Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources
no problems here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 10:41 PM

part 2 :
seems i have reached maximum letter lengths so i have to split it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Draconian Storm Lord - C
HP: 19 PROT: 10 MORALE: 14 MR: 13 ENC: 6 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Lightning Breath, Mountain Survival, Lightning res. (100), Flying

General: Expert Leader (50)
Item Slot 15622

Weapon: Draconic Falchion, Bite (20)

Armour: Scale Mail (7), Round Shield (2)

Cost : 260 gold/ 25 resources
just for confirmation : the name just CRIES after flying ability during storm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Pyro Draconians
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (75)

Weapon: Draconic Spear, bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Scale Mail

Cost: 35 gold/ 22 resources
ihmo for nonsacred unit slightly too high gold / resource costs . i would suggest 25 gold / 15 resources or something like that .
Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Storm Draconians
HP: 14 PROT: 7 MORALE: 12 MR: 12 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 14 ATT: 12 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Shock res (75)

Weapon: Draconic Spear, bite (20)

Armour: Draconic Scale Mail

Cost : 35 gold/ 22 resources
they have storm flying ability or ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
i think again a bit too high costs . here i would suggest 30 gold / 15 resources because of stormfly ability .
if my memory is right lightning resistence should either be changed to 50 or 100% to avoid resistence problems .

--------------------------

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Draconian Apprentice - C ****
HP: 10 PROT: 2 MORALE: 12 MR: 13 ENC: 4 AP: 9 Move: 2
STR: 8 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 11

Abilities: 1 Fire, 1 Air, Mountain Survival, Fire res (25), Flying.

General: Poor Leader (10)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Draconic Dagger (9), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost : 180 gold/ 2 resources

Draconian Elder - C ****
HP: 12 PROT: 5 MORALE: 16 MR: 15 ENC: 5 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 12 ATT: 8 DF: 10 PRE: 12

Abilities: 2 Fire, 2 Air, 1 E. Random, Fire Flare Breath (350), Mountain Survival.
Fire res (75), Flying

General: Oak Leader (25)
Item Slot: 15622

Weapon: Wooden Dragon Staff (604), Bite (20)

Armour: None

Cost: 360 gold/ 10 resources

----------------------------
everything expect perhaps 75% resistence ok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:

Storm Dragon - C **
HP: 125 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 23 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Lightning res (100), Fear, Heal, storm res.

Weapon: Bite, claw, Lightning breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Pyro Dragon - C **
HP: 130 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 12 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Fire res (100), Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Fire breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Temple Dragon - C **
HP: 135 PROT: 18 MORALE: 20 MR: 17 ENC: 4 AP: 10 Move: 2
STR: 25 ATT: 15 DF: 14 PRE: 10

Abilities: Mountain Survival, Flying, Holy, Fear, Heal

Weapon: Bite, Claw, Frost breath

Armour: None

Cost : ???????

Scout and regular infantries under construction. would you please post the slots for the dragons ?
with only 2 misc + headslot ( like the pretenderdragons ) i suggest based on that assumption : ( and because they seem to have no magic path http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )

storm dragon + pyro dragon :
300 gold
temple dragon :
because of holy + perhaps bless effects resulting in that :
500 gold

more than 500 is prohibitive by the niefel jarl as similiar unit which can be fully euquipped .

all 3 dragons are units not leaders right ?

p.s. : don't forget to assign every unit (especially the dragons slots + leader abilities ) because i will surely GoR some of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Boron

August 2nd, 2004, 10:45 PM

finally so far your mod seems already well balanced http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
if we can further improve it would the following scenario be possible ? :

should be really little work for illwinter only 10-30 minutes i think :

they could include your nation as a 18ths playable nation in the next patch .
and other well balanced mods .
especially pvks amazon empire mod comes to my mind there .

so that we have 20 races in the next patch :

your draconians , pvks amazons and illwinters 3rd water race which they announced http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

that would be a really gorgeous idea imho http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Taqwus

August 2nd, 2004, 11:36 PM

Boron --
'Heal', i.e. recuperation, is a very desirable property on a large monster such as a Dragon.

Thilock_Dominus

August 3rd, 2004, 07:47 AM

To Boron

Storm troops
I could give the storm troops 'storm res.', 15 gold extra for the commander, 5 gold for regular and for stormdragon 100 extra?

Didn't knew thee was problem with resisting abilities :/....is illwinter aware of it?

Temple troops
The protection is base protection, you have to add armour protection....ummmm is x-bows armor piercing? Can't remember.

The temple Lord and temple guards can't fly due to religious believes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ....nah, just kidding. Well they can't fly...I just need a good story to back up why they won't/ can't fly.

Also the temple Lord go an extra misc slot, that's why I made him expensive. He can't fly but uses his wings to wear an extra item.

Temple priest any suggestion(s)? lowering the cost?

The Dragons
They got the same item slots as Pretender dragons.
I'm still unsure if they should have the option to lead. If they can't lead we can cut down some of the cost.
No magic paths for the dragons.

1: Fire res: (75) means 75% right ?Right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ummm...hope I didn't missed anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ August 03, 2004, 06:49: Message edited by: Thilock_Dominus ]

liga

August 3rd, 2004, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Boron:

liga could you please share how you come to 6 , 15 and 20 times exactly ? yes, the possible permutations between N objects of which n are in position A and (N-n) are in position B are

N! / ( n! * ( N-n)! )

so, we have N = 6

for 5+ n = 5 and N-n = 1 so 6! / (5! * 1!) = 6
for 4+ n = 4 and N-n = 2 so 6! / (4! * 2!) = 15
for 3+ n = 3 and N-n = 3 so 6! / (3! * 3!) = 20

bye bye
Liga

BTW. about the mod ... it seems great! I hope to have the possibility to play it soon!

Boron

August 3rd, 2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by liga:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Boron:

liga could you please share how you come to 6 , 15 and 20 times exactly ? yes, the possible permutations between N objects of which n are in position A and (N-n) are in position B are

N! / ( n! * ( N-n)! )

so, we have N = 6

for 5+ n = 5 and N-n = 1 so 6! / (5! * 1!) = 6
for 4+ n = 4 and N-n = 2 so 6! / (4! * 2!) = 15
for 3+ n = 3 and N-n = 3 so 6! / (3! * 3!) = 20

bye bye
Liga

BTW. about the mod ... it seems great! I hope to have the possibility to play it soon! <hr /></blockquote>ok thnx . so you chose this formula http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
but i am unsure if you may only chose this formula or if you have to include something else .
because for 5+ of 1 path i think there should be 12 possible solutions :

AAAAAW , AAAAAE , AAAAAF , WWWWWA , WWWWWE , WWWWWF , EEEEEW , EEEEEA , EEEEEF , FFFFFA , FFFFFW , FFFFFE .

so 12 not 6 possible permutations right ?

i am unsure which formula(s) to use to get this outcome .
for 5+ it is easy to find it out because you can do the 12 permutations manually .
but for 3+ etc. you need a formula .

i forgot the permutations but i think you may not use your formula because this way you miss 6 possible permutations for 5+ example .

but i don't find a formula for this now so please tell me if i made a fault again or when you found a new one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Boron

August 3rd, 2004, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:
To Boron

Storm troops
I could give the storm troops 'storm res.', 15 gold extra for the commander, 5 gold for regular and for stormdragon 100 extra?

Didn't knew thee was problem with resisting abilities :/....is illwinter aware of it?

Temple troops
The protection is base protection, you have to add armour protection....ummmm is x-bows armor piercing? Can't remember.

The temple Lord and temple guards can't fly due to religious believes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ....nah, just kidding. Well they can't fly...I just need a good story to back up why they won't/ can't fly.

Also the temple Lord go an extra misc slot, that's why I made him expensive. He can't fly but uses his wings to wear an extra item.

Temple priest any suggestion(s)? lowering the cost?

The Dragons
They got the same item slots as Pretender dragons.
I'm still unsure if they should have the option to lead. If they can't lead we can cut down some of the cost.
No magic paths for the dragons.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />1: Fire res: (75) means 75% right ?Right http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Ummm...hope I didn't missed anything http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif <hr /></blockquote>i am not 100% sure with the resistences but i remember if you had 50% fire resistence and wanted to cast a spell which gives +100% the ai interupted .

so i think with 75% it may be a real problem .

could someone plz confirm this ?

with the protection i thought that is with armor values added so sorry http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

because i have no modding expierience so far i was unfamiliar with some of your abbreviations

i think i will say nothing more now but say my opinion in the beta then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
because e.g. that with the protection of 7 was a misunderstanding of me

so when i can see it ingame it is much easier for me

your mod seems so far very advanced do you already have a date when you plan to publish the beta ?
and do you draw the unit animations yourself or is it e.g. possible to copy some from aow 2 sm or something similiar ?

Thilock_Dominus

August 3rd, 2004, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Boron:

your mod seems so far very advanced do you already have a date when you plan to publish the beta ?
and do you draw the unit animations yourself or is it e.g. possible to copy some from aow 2 sm or something similiar ? I'm afraid I can't put a specific beta release date :/ ....I make a little here and there on the mod due to the time I got... I still need nation preferences scale and description on the units, nation description.

The animation (the sprites) in first round gonna be cut, paste and recolouring of existing units to cut down the release date magnificent.

best regards
Thilock

Boron

August 3rd, 2004, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by Thilock_Dominus:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Boron:

your mod seems so far very advanced do you already have a date when you plan to publish the beta ?
and do you draw the unit animations yourself or is it e.g. possible to copy some from aow 2 sm or something similiar ? I'm afraid I can't put a specific beta release date :/ ....I make a little here and there on the mod due to the time I got... I still need nation preferences scale and description on the units, nation description.

The animation (the sprites) in first round gonna be cut, paste and recolouring of existing units to cut down the release date magnificent.

best regards
Thilock <hr /></blockquote>hm if you don't modify any sprites for the beta ?
then you can take all your time for the sprites and the betaUsers can already give feedback on the units http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thilock_Dominus

August 4th, 2004, 06:00 AM

It only takes a couple of minuts to cut,paste and recolouring, so I think I'll just make'em.

Here is a try on the draconian Elder:
http://thilockdominus.freehomepage.com/images/draconian_elder.jpg

The body from C'tis, wings from the original Draconian, recolouring the dancers weapon and tadaaa a draconian Elder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Is it this what you had in mind how the draconian will looks like?

My Idea on how to split the draconian races into diffrent colours:

Draconian Mages and regular draconians: Green skin colour
Temple Draconians: White Skin Colours
Pyro draconians: Red Skin colour
Storm draconians: Light Blue Skin colour
Scout unit : Black Skin colour

Or does it becomes to confusing?

liga

August 4th, 2004, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Boron:
ok thnx . so you chose this formula http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
but i am unsure if you may only chose this formula or if you have to include something else .
because for 5+ of 1 path i think there should be 12 possible solutions :

AAAAAW , AAAAAE , AAAAAF , WWWWWA , WWWWWE , WWWWWF , EEEEEW , EEEEEA , EEEEEF , FFFFFA , FFFFFW , FFFFFE .

so 12 not 6 possible permutations right ?

i am unsure which formula(s) to use to get this outcome .
for 5+ it is easy to find it out because you can do the 12 permutations manually .
but for 3+ etc. you need a formula .

i forgot the permutations but i think you may not use your formula because this way you miss 6 possible permutations for 5+ example .

but i don't find a formula for this now so please tell me if i made a fault again or when you found a new one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This formula is ofr the permutaion once you have fixed your results ...

so, if you decide that you want a 5 Air 1 Everythnig but air, you (as you post in your first message) have a probability of 1/4 ^ 5 * 3/4.

But that result is without permutation becouse you can have 6 ways to get a AAAAAAR and that are

AAAAAAR AAAARA AAARAA AARAAA ARAAAA RAAAAA

of course if yiu are interessed in a generic (not specific) 5 level mage you have to multilply that possibility by four

To prove that that is true ... if you want a 5 Air 1 something else you have 3 (R = E,F,W) possibility for each of the 6 permutaions so are 18 possibility for a total of 4 ^ 6

18 / 4096 = 0.00439453125

that is exactly the same number you got form

1/4 ^ 5 * 3/4 * 6

good play
Liga

Boron

August 4th, 2004, 02:05 PM

thnx liga http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

do you study something with �mphasis on statistics or is this perhaps your job ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

your post was really instructive for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
i always forget something hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

liga

August 4th, 2004, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Boron:

do you study something with �mphasis on statistics or is this perhaps your job ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I like stats ... and also in my works I often need stats ...

good play
Liga

BTW ... are you proceeding with the revise of my Manual ?

Thilock_Dominus

August 4th, 2004, 05:41 PM

News:
The first beta release of LOTD comes on Sunday. Primary goal is to balance the units and the nation scales.
None of the new pretenders will be included in the beta mod
Few weapons and armor will be in the beta-mod
No unit description and nation description.
The first beta Version is only about how well the units works together and against the opponent(s).

Let me know if you are interested in beta test of LOTD so I can E-mail it.

best regards
Thilock

liga

August 6th, 2004, 04:10 PM

I would like to try and test it ... I'm not a good tester becosue I'm not a veteran player, but I'll be happy to give my contribution ...

my email is liga(AT)treemme(DOT)org ...

also, if you need, I can host your beta Version on my web site

thank you
Liga

Boron

August 6th, 2004, 05:11 PM

i would love to try too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thilock_Dominus

August 6th, 2004, 07:18 PM

Liga and Boron on the beta test http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Anyone else? I don't bite http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ...unless I havn't got my coffee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
The only requirement is you love playing Dom2 and give some feedback.

best regards
Thilock

Thilock_Dominus

August 9th, 2004, 07:22 AM

I've run into some difficulties....It seems I made an error(s) but I can't simply find it :/....Aren't there a bug finder out there?

#Modname "Dracacia - Land Of The Dragonkin"
#Description "beta test"
#Icon "./Dracasia/banner/Dracasia Icon.tga"
#Version 0.50
#DomVersion 2.12

#newweapon 898
#name "Lightning Breath"
#dmg 21
#range 40
#ammo 10
#armorpiercing
#bonus
#sound 24
#flyspr 210 4
#end

#Newweapon 899
#Name "Fire Flare Breath"
#Dmg 19
#Range 30
#Ammo 10
#Armorpiercing
#Bonus
#Sound 16
#Flyspr 133 4
#End

#newweapon 900
#Name "Ritual Dagger"
#dmg 3
#att 0
#def 0
#len 1
#sound 7
#end

#newweapon 901
#name "Wooden Dragon Staff"
#dmg 5
#att 3
#def 5
#len 3
#magic
#sound 10
#end

#newweapon 902
#name "Draconic Falchion"
#dmg 7
#att 1
#def 1
#len 2
#sound 8
#end

#newweapon 903
#name "Draconic Spear"
#dmg 3
#att 1
#def 0
#len 4
#sound 12
#end

#newweapon 904
#name "Draconic Halberd"
#dmg 8
#att 1
#def -1
#len 5
#sound 12
#end

#newarmor 300
#Name "Draconic Scale Mail"
#Type 5
#def 0
#Prot 7
#enc 1
#end

#newarmor 301
#name "Draconic Ring Mail"
#type 5
#def 0
#Prot 5
#enc 1
#end

#newarmor 302
#name "Draconic Silver Scale Mail"
#type 5
#def 1
#Prot 8
#enc 1
#end

#Newmonster 2000
#Name "Temple Servant"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 2
#Hp 10
#Prot 5
#Size 3
#STR 10
#Enc 5
#Att 9
#Def 8
#Prec 12
#Mr 13
#Mor 12

#Weapon 900
#Weapon 20
#Weapon 899

#Gcost 240
#Rcost 5

#Mountainsurvival
#Flying
#Fireres 50
#Holy
#Heal
#Female
#Nametype 120
#Poorleader
#Nomagicleader
#Noundeadleader
#Itemslots 15622
#Magicpath 1 2
#Magicpath 8 2
#End

#Newmonster 2001
#Name "Temple Priest"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 2
#Hp 15
#Prot 5
#Size 3
#STR 12
#Enc 5
#Att 10
#Def 14
#Prec 12
#Mr 15
#Mor 16

#Weapon 901
#Weapon 20
#Weapon 899

#Gcost 400
#Rcost 12

#Mountainsurvival
#Flying
#Fireres 50
#Holy
#Heal
#Nametype 113
#Oakleader
#Nomagicleader
#Noundeadleader
#Itemslots 15622
#Magicpath 1 2
#Magicpath 4 2
#Magicpath 8 3
#End

#Newmonster 2002
#Name "Temple Lord"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 11
#Mapmove 1
#Hp 22
#Prot 10
#Size 3
#STR 16
#Enc 6
#Att 14
#Def 16
#Prec 12
#Mr 14
#Mor 16

#Weapon 902
#Weapon 902
#Weapon 20
#Weapon 899
#Armor "Draconic Silver Scale Mail"

#Gcost 380
#Rcost 35

#Mountainsurvival
#Fireres 50
#Holy
#Heal
#Ambidextrous 3
#Nametype 113
#Expertleader
#Nomagicleader
#Noundeadleader
#Itemslots 19718
#End

#Newmonster 2003
#Name "Temple Guard"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 1
#Hp 16
#Prot 7
#Size 3
#STR 14
#Enc 4
#Att 12
#Def 12
#Prec 9
#Mr 12
#Mor 14

#Weapon 902
#Weapon 20
#Armor "Draconic Silver Scale Mail"
#Armor "Buckler"

#Gcost 58
#Rcost 25

#Mountainsurvival
#Fireres 50
#Holy
#Heal
#End

#Newmonster 2004
#Name "Draconian Lord"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 2
#Hp 16
#Prot 10
#Size 3
#STR 14
#Enc 7
#Att 10
#Def 11
#Prec 10
#Mr 12
#Mor 13

#Weapon 903
#Weapon 20
#Weapon 899
#Armor "Draconic Ring Mail"

#Gcost 150
#Rcost 18

#Mountainsurvival
#Fireres 50
#Flying
#Nametype 113
#Oakleader
#Nomagicleader
#Noundeadleader
#Itemslots 15622
#End

#Newmonster 2005
#Name "Draconian City Guard"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 2
#Hp 14
#Prot 7
#Size 3
#STR 14
#Enc 5
#Att 10
#Def 10
#Prec 9
#Mr 12
#Mor 12

#Weapon 904
#Weapon 20
#Armor "Draconic Ring Mail"

#Gcost 22
#Rcost 10

#Mountainsurvival
#Fireres 50
#Flying
#End

#newmonster 2006
#name "Draconian Pyro Lord"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 2
#Hp 19
#Prot 10
#Size 3
#STR 14
#Enc 6
#Att 12
#Def 12
#Prec 10
#Mr 13
#Mor 14

#weapon 902
#weapon 20
#weapon 899

#armor "Draconic Scale Mail"
#armor "Round Shield"

#Gcost 260
#Rcost 25

#Mountainsurvival
#Fireres 100
#Flying
#nametype 113
#expertleader
#itemslots 15622
#end

#newmonster 2007
#name "Draconian Storm Lord"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 2
#Hp 19
#Prot 10
#Size 3
#STR 14
#Enc 6
#Att 12
#Def 12
#Prec 10
#Mr 13
#Mor 14

#weapon 902
#weapon 20
#weapon 898

#armor "Draconic Scale Mail"
#armor "Round Shield"

#Gcost 260
#Rcost 25

#Mountainsurvival
#Shockres 100
#Flying
#nametype 113
#expertleader
#itemslots 15622
#end

#newmonster 2008
#name "Pyro Draconian"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 2
#Hp 14
#Prot 7
#Size 3
#STR 14
#Enc 5
#Att 12
#Def 12
#Prec 10
#Mr 12
#Mor 12

#weapon 903
#weapon 20

#armor "Draconic Scale Mail"

#Gcost 35
#Rcost 22

#Mountainsurvival
#Fireres 100
#Flying
#end

#newmonster 2009
#name "Storm Draconian"
#Descr "Beta test"
#Spr1 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"
#Spr2 "./Dracasia/units/DracoPriest1.tga"

#Ap 10
#Mapmove 2
#Hp 14
#Prot 7
#Size 3
#STR 14
#Enc 5
#Att 12
#Def 12
#Prec 10
#Mr 12
#Mor 12

#weapon 903
#weapon 20

#armor "Draconic Scale Mail"

#Gcost 35
#Rcost 22

#Mountainsurvival
#Shockres 100
#Flying
#end

#Selectnation 1
#Name "Dracasia"
#Brief "Beta test"
#Summary "beta test"
#flag "Dracasia Flag.tga"

#Clearrec
#addrecunit 2005
#addrecunit 2003
#addrecunit 2008
#addrecunit 2009

#addreccom 2000
#addreccom 2001
#addreccom 2002
#addreccom 2004
#addreccom 2006
#addreccom 2007

#Idealcold -2
#Nothemes
#Clear heroes

#defcom1 2004
#defcom2 2000
#defunit1 2005
#defunit2 2003
#defmult1 20
#defmult2 20

#startcom 2004
#startunittype 2005
#Startunitnbrs 20

#poppergold 180
#resourcemult 100
#Supplymult 100

#unresthalfinc 60
#unresthalfres 100
#eventisrare 15
#turmoilincome 2
#tormoilevents 5
#deathincome 2
#deathsupply 20
#deathdeath 2
#slothincome 2
#slothresources 10
#coldincome 3
#coldsupply 8
#misfortune 10
#luckevents 5
#end

Agrajag

August 9th, 2004, 11:30 AM

You didn't tell me at what stage the error shows up, so Im just going to guess:
"#Icon "./Dracasia/banner/Dracasia Icon.tga""
Im pretty sure filenames aren't allowed spaces in between.
I'll look into the text more carefuly in a bit and see if anything else is disfunctional.
Some more what-is-the-error-and-when-is-it-showing-up description would be nice =P

EDIT II: Ive noticed some units have the "#Oakleader" attribute, it should be "#Okleader" (lose one of the 'A''s).

EDIT: Just noticed another thing, while not very important, it is wise to add #att to your ranged weapons as it represents precision, Im pretty sure it isn't obligatory, but it sure doesnt do any damage.

Thilock_Dominus

August 9th, 2004, 01:49 PM

Thanks, Agrajag for pointing out some? of the errors http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I will look into it and correct the errors when I get home from work.

The errors appear when I try to start Dom2 up. The screen went black and then jump back to the desktop.

Sometimes when I look at something to find specific things I can't find it because I stare myself blind on the subject /threads/images/Graemlins/crazy.gif ....oh well
Thanks again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

best regards
Thilock

Johan K

August 9th, 2004, 02:30 PM

Dominions is case sensitive so you have to change #Modname to #modname and so forth.

Thilock_Dominus

August 9th, 2004, 05:09 PM

Aaaaah it works!!! Thanks Johan and Agrajag http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

http://thilockdominus.freehomepage.com/images/screenshot.jpg

liga

August 10th, 2004, 07:14 AM

So, if you post me the mod to try before my left (thursday) I could try it during my holidays!

good play!
Liga

Thilock_Dominus

August 10th, 2004, 11:37 AM

So, if you post me the mod to try before my left (thursday) I could try it during my holidays!

good play!
Liga

I'm really trying to get the beta Version up, but it's harder than I thought http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ...I'll do my best to get it up running, I just run into to some complication that I need to look into in the mod.
Sometimes it been so frustrating that I pulled hair out of my head LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif...The good thing is that I'm learning all the time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I can't promised anything at the moment but you will be one of the first to know when the beta is ready http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

with best regards
Thilock

Agrajag

August 10th, 2004, 05:13 PM

So, if you post me the mod to try before my left (thursday) I could try it during my holidays!

good play!
Liga

I'm really trying to get the beta Version up, but it's harder than I thought http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif ...I'll do my best to get it up running, I just run into to some complication that I need to look into in the mod.
Sometimes it been so frustrating that I pulled hair out of my head LOL http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif...The good thing is that I'm learning all the time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I can't promised anything at the moment but you will be one of the first to know when the beta is ready http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

with best regards
Thilock

Well, youve got us all to help you.
Or atleast me.
As you can see Ive published one mod (mainly just to practice mod making), so Im "very" expirieneced.
But Im useful =P

BTW, you just gotta download the second mod in my sig, its so cool and all it does is add a new pretender that I'd really like everyone to see.

Thilock_Dominus

August 10th, 2004, 05:40 PM

Hehehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif...I've just tried your 2. mod, I guess it's a real picture of your dog?

My problem is the priest spells don't show up. Though I have written it into each priest unit.

Another problem: How do I make a unit restricted only to the capitol or a temple? I guess it's done by making a site which where you can recruit the speciel units? That leads to another problem: I looked at the modding codes manual and it seems it's not yet possible to make your own sites?

best regards
Thilock

Agrajag

August 10th, 2004, 07:38 PM

Hehehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif...I've just tried your 2. mod, I guess it's a real picture of your dog?

My problem is the priest spells don't show up. Though I have written it into each priest unit.

Another problem: How do I make a unit restricted only to the capitol or a temple? I guess it's done by making a site which where you can recruit the speciel units? That leads to another problem: I looked at the modding codes manual and it seems it's not yet possible to make your own sites?

best regards
Thilock

Concerning the capital only units - The only way of doing this (and this is according to official information) is to pick a nation that has a built in site with units specific to it (or using a different unit recruiting site, such as a library) and modify the unit that building permits.
And as regards to your priest - I'll edit after checking the code you posted (unless you updated it =O)
EDIT: obviously you didnt update the .dm Version thats posted here with the priest spell coding, all I can say is try #magicskill 8 4 (for lvl 4 in holyness)
EDIT II: yep, its a real picture of my dog, she's cute http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif (too bad you are ruining everyone elses surprise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )
I used a digital camera (a waste of 3MegaPixels when its shrunk to 128X64).

Taqwus

August 10th, 2004, 08:24 PM

Noooooo, not a library!

Well, it has one good feature (no gem income) from a modding perspective, but you wouldn't want the sage replacement to be available that easily to everybody else. If you're not going to use a site which never appears randomly (such as the current national sites like the House of Just Fires or the Cathedral of the Spheres), pick something very, very rare and that gives a very very rare unit type.

Something like "The Grey Tower" comes to mind -- the tower that gives you some astral income, and normally lets you recruit inherently ethereal knights and mages which cannot be recruited, summoned, or encountered in any other way, I believe. "The Hidden Kingdom of Elludia" may be similarly rare. IIRC, both give astral income which might be out of theme, however.

Agrajag

August 11th, 2004, 04:33 AM

The library was just an example.
Obviously it appears too much to be used as a site for your nation's unit recruiting (and a shame about those sages =P).
I'd suggest using a site that comes naturaly to the nation you are modding, only I don't remember which nation you are modding out =P

Thilock_Dominus

August 13th, 2004, 02:43 AM

I ran into another problem that you guys can help me with.
It seems whenever I put one of my own sprites into dom2 it make the sprite smaller Though when I'm editing in the paint program the sprite have the same size as the C'tis.(body size without the wings)

Draconian screenshot:
http://thilockdominus.freehomepage.com/images/dpic1.jpg

C'tis screenshot:

http://thilockdominus.freehomepage.com/images/dpic2.jpg

Azhur

August 13th, 2004, 07:31 AM

Yep same problem at the moment with my muspel-mod. I tried resizing to 150%, but sprites were too blurry after that.

Kristoffer O

August 13th, 2004, 08:30 AM

Do you use 64x64 or 128x128 image sizes?

Azhur

August 13th, 2004, 08:48 AM

Do you use 64x64 or 128x128 image sizes?

At least I used gandalf's 64x64 all units gif's. Where can I find 128x128 ones?

Boron

August 13th, 2004, 10:09 AM

Do you use 64x64 or 128x128 image sizes?

At least I used gandalf's 64x64 all units gif's. Where can I find 128x128 ones?

hm perhaps liga knows . on his site he has screenshots of all units and a link to a thread here on the board from where he has the images . unfortunately the link doesn't work anymore with the new forum so only liga or another longtime dominion player like zen or gandalf or kristoffer and johan will be able to help you further http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

expect size your screenshots look great so far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Azhur

August 13th, 2004, 10:31 AM

Do you use 64x64 or 128x128 image sizes?

At least I used gandalf's 64x64 all units gif's. Where can I find 128x128 ones?

hm perhaps liga knows . on his site he has screenshots of all units and a link to a thread here on the board from where he has the images . unfortunately the link doesn't work anymore with the new forum so only liga or another longtime dominion player like zen or gandalf or kristoffer and johan will be able to help you further http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

expect size your screenshots look great so far http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I visited liga's site, but according to psp8, his pics' size are 203x251 pixels. Tested and sprites looked.. well way too big.

Johan K

August 13th, 2004, 11:03 AM

A human being is supposed to be 32 pixels high. There should be a 2 pixels high space between his feet and the bottom of the image. The image itself should be 32x32, 32x64, 64x64, 128x64 or something similar pixels large.

Agrajag

August 13th, 2004, 11:42 AM

Just wanted to throw in that from my expirience the game doesnt really care what size you put in, I have some abnormal sizes in my .tga's and the game doesnt mind, things like 40X32 or 45X37 are completely acceptable, just check my Umbarthium mod ^^
Even though I tried sticking with the rules...

Thilock_Dominus

August 13th, 2004, 01:11 PM

Do you use 64x64 or 128x128 image sizes?

64x64 pix 24 bit uncompressed tga.

Thilock_Dominus

August 13th, 2004, 01:14 PM

A human being is supposed to be 32 pixels high. There should be a 2 pixels high space between his feet and the bottom of the image. The image itself should be 32x32, 32x64, 64x64, 128x64 or something similar pixels large.

ummm...could be the problem. I used the ones from Gandalf website to modify, I think all the images there is 64x64 in size.

Johan K

August 13th, 2004, 06:04 PM

I have some abnormal sizes in my .tga's and the game doesnt mind, things like 40X32 or 45X37 are completely acceptable,

It works because they get stretched to something like 64x64 when they are loaded into Dominions. The brawback is that they will look quite fuzzy. Avoid this by putting them in a properly sized image.

Agrajag

August 13th, 2004, 06:11 PM

I have some abnormal sizes in my .tga's and the game doesnt mind, things like 40X32 or 45X37 are completely acceptable,

It works because they get stretched to something like 64x64 when they are loaded into Dominions. The brawback is that they will look quite fuzzy. Avoid this by putting them in a properly sized image.

Actually, atleast to my untrained eye, they look like they just get an extra blank area added to fit the bigger size (so it still looks the same)

Thilock_Dominus

September 24th, 2004, 02:16 PM

I'll just dropped by to tell that my mod project aren't forgotten or anything. I've been busy learning Linux, installing compiling, etc. etc.
When I feel I'm ready and feel home at Linux I'll continue my project.

By the way I did some commercial stuff over at MandrakeUsers.org a link in my sig goes right to illwinter homepage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Off-topic:
My linux system

Mandrake 10.1 Powerpack. Kernel 2.6.8.1-8, Nvidia driver 6111. Xorg 6.8.1 Kde 3.2.3
Firefox 1.0 Thunderbird 0.8
Linux Games: Dominions 2 v.1.13, Falcon's Eye v.1.9.3

and M$ is history on my computer, I'm totally falled in love with the linux system http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif