Caelum pretender design

[Arryn]

I'm curious as to what sort of pretender design -- excluding the Vampire Queen -- the experienced players of (base) Caelum out there are using. Do you go for an SC chassis, or a research chassis? Do you give the pretender the same magic paths as the national mages, or something completely different?

[archaeolept]

you mean caelum is allowed to take a pretender other than the VQ?

:shock:

;P

I haven't played caelum, but it certainly has the points for a massive SC, and little reason not to go for one.

[Truper]

The Caelum design currently living on my machine is a Ghost King - 3A 2W 3E 3D. Standard research alteration and stomp indies tactics. Later on his earth and death will be useful for forging/summons.

I also like using a Son of Neifel with, say, 3W 4B. This is if I want to turn Caelum into a blood nation, and get the ice devils.

Both these pretenders attempt to leverage Caelum's cold - ghosts, winter wolves and ice devils love it.

Neither of them is maxed out - I'm more fond of good scales and strong dominion than many players.

[Kel]

Hehe, I wasn't going to say anything as I don't necessarily think I am experienced with Caelum but that GK is the exact same one I have been using lately http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

- Kel

[Arryn]

It's interesting that you should pick a GK with 3A2W3E3D, as I've had good success with a very similar one (3A3W3E2D). Why do you prefer 2W3D over 3W2D? For the summons later on?

Does anyone play with a Sage (or other human) pretender?

How would you design a Nat? And does anyone prefer the Nat over the GK (and why)?

[Maltrease]

The Caelum build that I have had very good success with.

Oracle with Astral 4
Dominion 6 or 7
Cermonial Faith (take advantage of steathly preachers)
Order 3
Productivity 3
Cold 3
Growth 3
Magic 3

Castle - Castle.

Caelium's mages and begining troops are very capable of taking provenences by themselves. Usually from turn 2 on with this build. You get a ton of money (to buy all those cheap mages). And your income continues to improve as the game goes on thanks to growth.

The oracle can be used for Archiac record with the astrals you get from clamming your water gems. Later the oracle can forge sorcery rings so your arch seraphs can get to death 2, nature 2, where they can forge addional path boosters.

The oracle with equipment also has a good chance of catching a couple SC's with a mind hunt and forcing them to counter with higher MR items.

I have tried this build with Sloth 3 (for the extra 240 points). While Sloth would not be a problem in the late game it really slows the early expansion down, plus makes a significant dent in your income.

My current build (untested in MP) is to also take Misfortune 2 (and 1 less dominion I think). And give my oracle Astral 5, Earth 3. This allows the creation of golems, hammers, and crystal coins. It also give easier access to wish in the late game by using a sorc ring, wiz ring, crystal coin, and tome of high power.

[archaeolept]

3D for soul vortex

i love GK's, but here we see another indication that they really are a bit underpriced. even upping initial path costs to 30 would work, I think.

Nat's have fatigue problems, so you need to use a slot to give them cold resistance right away.

[Truper]

Right. 3D for soul vortex, and to be within range of things like Harvester of Sorrows and Ghost Riders with 1 booster, or Wraith Lords with 2. If the GK's paths were changed to 30, (which probably is needed - Ghost Kings are very common), I'd probably drop the water, forgo breath of winter, and get quickness from boots.

Lately I've been thinking that nations really need access to death more than any other path - for wraith swords, if nothing else. Life-draining has become a topic of frequent discussion in my Dom2 circle, with a general consensus developing that its too powerful.

[Lex]

weird, I've always found that Caelum's starting troops die off too fast against indies.. I've found that keeping the starting troops on patrol, getting double income on my capital, and clearing indies with a Wyrm loaded with A3W2D3E3 works better. The income boost from using your inital troops to patrol lets you build a fortification on the second turn, which lets you start recruiting more seraphs sooner.

[Boron]

Arryn said:
I'm curious as to what sort of pretender design -- excluding the Vampire Queen -- the experienced players of (base) Caelum out there are using. Do you go for an SC chassis, or a research chassis? Do you give the pretender the same magic paths as the national mages, or something completely different?


i am not experienced but i saw in a brief overlook not mentioned one pretender :

the nataraja .

since caelum has quite a few points from cold 3 you can make a really cool nataraja .

if she gets wounded she is a bit screwed but lategame you can get fairy queens to heal her .

[archaeolept]

1. natarajas are male.
2. they suffer cold fatigue from caelum's dominion
3. due to their usual function as brawlers w/out massive paths, they tend to accumulate afflictions - hence their popularity w/ Arcos.

[Boron]

archaeolept said:
1. natarajas are male.
2. they suffer cold fatigue from caelum's dominion
3. due to their usual function as brawlers w/out massive paths, they tend to accumulate afflictions - hence their popularity w/ Arcos.



1. correct . the name sounds feminine though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
so i continue saying her http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif
2. sure . i never said though that i use her as an earlygame sc http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
nataraja is 0 points +3 dominion so giving her a bit fire + air magic ( for travel ) and a bit earth for forging + invulnerability since caelum lacks earth is not too expensive .
2 death is an almost must to summon spectres finally .

but thats all in all not so expensive so i can go quite good scales http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

when i use her lategame i fight often outside my own dominin anyways so until i have an undead pretender i will always suffer some fatigue against either heat or cold opponents anyway .

3. i use her only fully equipped as mid-lategame sc .
if i get afflictions then it should be not too difficult with my astral income which is quite nice as caelum if needed to summon first a coatl and then a fairy queen with coatl + treelords staff .
cause 1 of my spectres should be able to summon a coatl sooner or later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif


so nataraja is relative useless earlygame ( but a good sitesearcher ) but mid-lategame she is better than a ghostking or a vq as sc and she is cheaper than a vq and about as expensive as a ghostking .

[Maltrease]

First turn buy 1 seraph and as many of the low resource (4) archers as you can afford.

Second turn. Equip seraph with air gem and script to wind guide. Take seraph and storm general maxed out with archers to indy province. SG has 21 archer in one unit, 1 archer in the other 4 units. The units with only one archer are spread across the front of the battlefield. Seraph has 6 archers in one unit, and 4 units with 1 archer. Again spread the single unit archers around the front of the battlefield.

The scattered archers does two things. First any missile file will target them, likely missing entirely, or killing 1. Second the ground units will zig zag around targeting your scattered archers before they advance towards your main force.

This gives your main wind guided archer force many turns to attack and hopefully route the enemy.

Anything with low armor or only a few HI is fair game.

Each turn you can bring another seraph with an air gem and another 10 archers. Once you have reached a critical mass you can have the storm general carry excess gems for wind guide. Then your mages can stay at home to research, site search, or form another conquering party.

The real key is researching Evo2. Once you have lighting then nearly any Indy province is available to you (including knights). Wind guide, combined with naturally high precision, and the precision bonus from lighting make almost every bolt hit. 4 seraphs and 50 archers (with as many scattered as possible) can take almost any province with a lost of 6 or 7 archers.

Once I hit Evo2 I generally go toward con2 for clams, and then conjuration to 5 or even 7 (for queens). It helps to avoid alteration so your seraphs stay focused on casting lighting instead of phantom warriors.

Anyways... this works well for me. And its fun to not depending on SC pretender for expansion. Or choosing the GK like most other nations end up doing.

[Cainehill]

I've rather enjoyed using a PoD with Caelum, adding on several magic paths on top of death - typically fire, earth, and some nature, to complement Caelum's national mages for site searching, forging, and summoning.

While not immune to cold, being undead means that it doesn't suffer increased fatigue from Caelum's cold weather, and it doesn't require use of boots for flight, meaning that it can keep up with all the flying mages and troops.

[Arryn]

Truper said:
Life-draining has become a topic of frequent discussion in my Dom2 circle, with a general consensus developing that its too powerful.

Too powerful because "everyone" is using it (ie: nerf-bait), or because it's "too cheap"? These are the two most-frequently cited opinions on the subject, from what I've seen. I'm curious as to your opinion and reason (especially since I know you're one of Zen's "disciples", as I am).

[Karacan]

Boron said:
correct . the name sounds feminine though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
so i continue saying her http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif




"We thank you for not offending ancient religions."
"But why? I haven't stopped doing so yet."

[archaeolept]

as "raja" means "king", I admit that i'm perplexed by the supposed femininity of it.

[Boron]

archaeolept said:
as "raja" means "king", I admit that i'm perplexed by the supposed femininity of it.



it is a language thing .

but in german you have not only the but 3 different words :
der ( normally for male )
die ( normally for female )
das ( normally for things )

but you say e.g. :
der mensch = the human
a human can be male and female . but here you chose the male variant der .
die see = the lake
you chose the femine variant die though a lake is of no gender .


in german das nataraja sounds stupid .
der nataraja and die nataraja sound both stupid too but die nataraja is probably the best chose for the 3 lol

[Pickles]

I think "rani" is the feminine of "raja" (based on "Flashman & the Great Game"). It is an Indian word but I do not know what language.


Pickles

[Karacan]

Boron said:
it is a language thing .




Sorry, it's not. It's a thing of education.



die see = the lake
you chose the femine variant die though a lake is of no gender .




So you're one of the reasons of the Pisa-results. "Die See" = the sea. The lake = "der See". There's a difference in there, and the right pronoun is rather important.



in german das nataraja sounds stupid .
der nataraja and die nataraja sound both stupid too but die nataraja is probably the best chose for the 3 lol



Please consider yourself a Christian for a moment. Now imagine some noob in some forum goes calling Jesus Christ "daughter of god", because her name sounds stupid for a male in his native language.



I'm german, and the arrogance and lack of respect for other cultures and Languages shown by some germans (among others) always tics me off.

Add edit:_ /rant off. Back to topic.

[Arryn]

Karacan said:
I'm german, and the arrogance and lack of respect for other cultures and Languages shown by some germans (among others) always tics me off.

Not much different than similar behavior by all too many of my fellow Americans. However, what's particularly egregious about Boron's Last post, and something that especially annoys me, is that after he was corrected on the subject of gender, he continues to do things his way (regardless of being wrong). What that shows me, as apparently it does to you, is that he's willfully dismissive of all things that do not fit into his rather narrow worldview. Whether such things be proper language use, game rules he finds inconvenient, people's opinions, or even historical events.

Thanks for trying, Karacan. But I'm afraid you're wasting your efforts with him. And do not worry about the image he presents of your countrymen, as he's not representative of the average or majority (at least not in my own experience with Germans). Though I do sympathize with the bad taste he leaves you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

[Arryn]

Pickles said:
It is an Indian word but I do not know what language.

Hindi, IIRC.

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:

Karacan said:
I'm german, and the arrogance and lack of respect for other cultures and Languages shown by some germans (among others) always tics me off.

Not much different than similar behavior by all too many of my fellow Americans.



If we call someone who speaks two Languages
bi-lingual

And we call someone who speaks three Languages
tri-lingual

What do you call someone who speaks one language?
(american)

Its a joke. Really. Might not be one told in your circles but its a fairly common joke Im told. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Want to hear a good "white guy" joke?

[Arryn]

Gandalf Parker said:
Its a joke. Really.

A sad, but too true one.

Top 5 most arrogant nations, more or less in order from worst down:

1. United States
2. France
3. Japan
4. UK
5. China

I won't endeavor to actually attempt to score any of these. They just happen to be the most guilty. I (briefly) debated Germany in place of China, but China really deserves to be on the short list for a number of reasons, including lengthy historical ones.

Excuse me, so much for staying on my own topic. /threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif

[Kel]

A little less nation bashing, please. Even if it is your own nation, 'flaming' a whole nation, off topic, on a public forum is not likely to provoke anything but another flame.

- Kel

[Arryn]

Actually, this isn't a public forum. It's a private forum (open to the public) owned and operated by a corporation. A public forum wouldn't have censorship, and public ones in the true spirit of the term 'public' don't have moderation, either.

But I do get your point.

[Boron]

Karacan said:

Boron said:
it is a language thing .




Sorry, it's not. It's a thing of education.



die see = the lake
you chose the femine variant die though a lake is of no gender .




So you're one of the reasons of the Pisa-results. "Die See" = the sea. The lake = "der See". There's a difference in there, and the right pronoun is rather important.



in german das nataraja sounds stupid .
der nataraja and die nataraja sound both stupid too but die nataraja is probably the best chose for the 3 lol



Please consider yourself a Christian for a moment. Now imagine some noob in some forum goes calling Jesus Christ "daughter of god", because her name sounds stupid for a male in his native language.



I'm german, and the arrogance and lack of respect for other cultures and Languages shown by some germans (among others) always tics me off.

Add edit:_ /rant off. Back to topic.



oh with der see and die see you are right karacan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

i am not bad educated though . at least i made my abitur without much effort http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
i just never showed liking for the subject DEUTSCH .
and in the internet i don't care too much about capitalization and punctuation .

i am a christian and believe in god but i would see someone foreign calling jesus die jesus not too bad he just doesn't know better .
and humorous films about religion like southpark , dogma and life of brian i like very much too .


i find it rather funny though that nobody seems to have interest in the main part of my message that the nataraja is a good pretender too and instead just almost flaming me because i gave it a female pronoun instead of a male one half because i found it funny and half because i didn't care and didn't think someone might care if i use him or her for a few pixels anyway .


in german der and die nataraja sound both ****ty though .


but to judge ones education only with his ability to speak his mother language perfect is a bit too one-sided .
hey i am no second Wolfgang von Goethe .

i guess you are better in Deutsch as me karacan but probably i would beat you in history knowlegde e.g. i guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Gandalf Parker said:
Its a joke. Really.

A sad, but too true one.

Top 5 most arrogant nations, more or less in order from worst down:

1. United States
2. France
3. Japan
4. UK
5. China

I won't endeavor to actually attempt to score any of these. They just happen to be the most guilty. I (briefly) debated Germany in place of China, but China really deserves to be on the short list for a number of reasons, including lengthy historical ones.

Excuse me, so much for staying on my own topic. /threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif



wow thats interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

and i really wonder why you didn't put germany on a high position like 2 or 3 at least .
first we have our history . germany was probably the most arrogant nation from 1870-1945 .
second we are known as very unpopular tourists .
mallorca + ballermann are just 2 catchwords .
the italian president berlusconi has said that even in public .
he has a point there .

in most european countries we germans fight with the brits for the "honor" of being the most disliked tourists http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

with china i wonder what historic issues you mean .
if you wrote soviet russia because of the cold war i would understand http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
so plz enlighten me for entertainment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

japan surprises me too .
i love japanese + chinese food . the chinese / japanese in the german japanese/chinese restaurants are all very friendly , much more friendly than in a restaurant owned by germans .
japan is just cool imo . probably the most techliking nation in the whole world http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
oh and i love chinese/japanese action movie films .

japanese rpgs are very cool like final fantasy series or grandia 2 . the characters look so cute and the gameplay behind it is as good as e.g. baldurs gate http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
and in the internet i don't care too much about capitalization and punctuation .




In other words, you don't have enough respect for the people you're communicating with to make an effort. When someone writes sloppily, readers tend to equate the content with the form - ie, both are viewed as sloppy.


i find it rather funny though that nobody seems to have interest in the main part of my message that the nataraja is a good pretender too ...



Perhaps because no one found that surprising or noteworthy? The nataraja has been viewed as _such_ a good pretender that there was a campaign to nerf it not all that long ago, on the premise that the nataraja was _the_ ultimate pretender and none of the others were competitive.


but to judge ones education only with his ability to speak his mother language perfect is a bit too one-sided .




When all the people _have_ is your written words, what else are they supposed to judge you on?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Boron said:
in german der and die nataraja sound both ****ty though .



Would you say "der Tanzkönig" or "die Tanzkönig"?

[Boron]

Cainehill said:

Boron said:
and in the internet i don't care too much about capitalization and punctuation .




In other words, you don't have enough respect for the people you're communicating with to make an effort. When someone writes sloppily, readers tend to equate the content with the form - ie, both are viewed as sloppy.


but to judge ones education only with his ability to speak his mother language perfect is a bit too one-sided .




When all the people _have_ is your written words, what else are they supposed to judge you on?



your second point is somewhat true .
but normally when posting something in the internet almost nobody cares about punctuation and capitalization .
in germany we get drilled long enough with this [censored] in school .
since i get no marks if i care too much about capitalization/punctuation etc. when i post something in the internet and since you can post faster with leaving this rules away without damaging the content of your post so why should i care about capitalization etc. ?

as long as i don't study linguistics in university even the professors don't care too much about orthography too .

hey i don't try to write a novel but just a discussion lol


most of you have the blessing being americans . but now in german we decide about a new orthography reform and still nobody is sure if they should do it or not .
so since we were really overdrilled with this crap in school at least i am perhaps especially sloppy there .


but einstein e.g. didn't win his nobelprize for writing perfect orthography but for his discoveries .
not that i am einstein i just wanted to give a good example how unimportant "overperfect" language is as long as you are no politician or a talkmaster .

[Arryn]

Boron,

Writing easy-to-read Messages serves several purposes:

1. It helps to give others the impression that you have some sort of education. Perhaps you don't care if you appear uncultured?

2. It engenders appreciation by those that don't have to strain their eyes trying to read and interpret the stuff you write. Perhaps you don't care about how much effort others have to go through to read your stuff?

3. It's polite. Perhaps you don't mind being thoughtless and inconsiderate?

If you make it needlessly hard for others to read what you write, just because you are lazy and/or indifferent, people will stop trying to do so. Then who will you argue with? I'm just about at this point myself. Reading your Posts is more trouble than the content is worth.

[Ozymandias]

Hey boron, could you take your turn in hard_slog instead of arguing about punctuation?

[Boron]

Ozymandias said:
Hey boron, could you take your turn in hard_slog instead of arguing about punctuation?


did .
thought 1500 minutes left oh well i am surely not the Last surprisingly i was http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Ozymandias]

Yay! I killed Vanheim's vampire queen, in my dominion. That was the battle I was really interested in. Thanks for taking your turn promptly.

[archaeolept]

sweet

omg i didn't change her buff list. I was sure i did.

oh well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Boron]

Ozymandias said:
Yay! I killed Vanheim's vampire queen, in my dominiion. That was the battle I was really interested in. Thanks for taking your turn promptly.


so you are man ?
poor archaeolept http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif
this makes my poor belkelel probably the only vq which still wasn't killed in hard slog .
hopefully this won't change soon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Arryn]

Ozy', 'lept, et. al.: isn't there a thread dedicated to your MP game? (hint)

Matters of punctuation aside, and a (hopefully) brief interlude re: some MP game, weren't we discussing Caelumite pretenders?

[archaeolept]

actually, on the bright side it confirms my dislike for the VQ

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[alexti]

Kel said:
A little less nation bashing, please. Even if it is your own nation, 'flaming' a whole nation, off topic, on a public forum is not likely to provoke anything but another flame.

- Kel


First thought after the reading Posts in a random order:
Cast Wish -> "Flame Pythium". There go those damned communicants! And my troops are fire resistant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[The_Tauren13]

Boron said:
1. correct . the name sounds feminine though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif
so i continue saying her http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif



heh.. made me laugh anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



the way i see it, the point of language is to communicate. most people dont have any problem with reading lower case. if not capitalizing letters makes it really hard for you to read, maybe you need new glasses... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif
i guess it comes from playing so much CS and other real time games where if you take the time to spell things out perfectly and capitalize everything, you die.
and who cares if someone thinks youre uncivilized and uneducated when you already know they hate you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
the way i see it, the point of language is to communicate. most people dont have any problem with reading lower case.



Most people do actually. That's why capitalization was invented in the first place back in the 900's.


if not capitalizing letters makes it really hard for you to read, maybe you need new glasses... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif



Capitalization tells people where new sentences begin.

[The_Tauren13]

hmm... i wonder what a period is for?

[Arryn]

Graeme, don't bother trying to educate Tauren & Boron, it's a waste of time. I solved my problem with their Posts by using the ignore user functionality of the new forum software. Cleans things up rather nicely. /threads/images/Graemlins/icon45.gif

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
hmm... i wonder what a period is for?



A period tells people where a sentence ends.

Basically, it comes down to the fact that your message is only written once, but is read many times. This means that it's up to you to make your message easy to read so that other people aren't being inconvenienced.

[Kel]

The_Tauren13 said:
hmm... i wonder what a period is for?



Somehow, I am not certain whether that was sarcasm or you were asking an honest question http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

- Kel

[The_Tauren13]

Graeme Dice said:

The_Tauren13 said:
the way i see it, the point of language is to communicate. most people dont have any problem with reading lower case.



Most people do actually. That's why capitalization was invented in the first place back in the 900's.


most people, eh? that doesnt even seem to include you. you dont have any problem reading it; you are just whining about it because you want another reason for me to be wrong.
ive never seen anyone truly unable to comprehend text due to lack of punctuation

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
most people, eh? that doesnt even seem to include you. you dont have any problem reading it; you are just whining about it because you want another reason for me to be wrong. ive never seen anyone truly unable to comprehend text due to lack of punctuation



Are you not aware that there's a difference between writing that's comprehendable and writing that's easy to read? As I've already explained, your message is only being written once, and read many times, so your laziness is no excuse.

[Zapmeister]

Gotta agree with Graeme's drift here, if not with his spelling of "comprehensible" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[atul]

The_Tauren13 said:
ive never seen anyone truly unable to comprehend text due to lack of punctuation


From a personal experience, since English isn't a native language for me, I sometimes have big problems understanding even typoed text (hard to figure which word it might be), not to mention a text which looks like something that's hit with a big hammer.

The way some people write just gives a bad first impression and ultimately leads to ignoring their texts as it's harder to read than what it's worth for. It's easier just to spot interesting flammable parts from other people's replies. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ivan Pedroso]

In Denmark (at least when I attended high-school) German was a mandatory subject, and back then I would second Boron's opinion on the grammar. Capitalizing nouns is a hassle (removed from the Danish language quite some time ago), not to mention all the other complicated rules.

I hated these complications when I was younger, but now I must admit that I enjoy weird language rules and I detest bad grammar (in official/important texts, but not in everyday communications – what Category this forum falls into is a matter of personal opinion. I’m basically a lurker and as such I check my spelling vigorously). I even dislike American spelling with the missing "u" in "color" and the like. I think this might be an age thing.

(The interested can do a simple google search on “capitalization in german”)

[jarenko]

can you really wish for 'flame pythium'......

[Pickles]

Ivan Pedroso said:
I even dislike American spelling with the missing "u" in "color" and the like. I think this might be an age thing.



Me too but that is probably more because I am English & also am wary of American "cultural imperialism".
It is exasperating to see people too lazy to type or punctuate or even write whole words out "r u my m8" grrr.

Still language changes & sooner or later some of these abominations will be standard...

Pickles

[Chazar]

I see that I noticed this thread a bit too late to discuss Caelum's pretender design, but since I love Caelum, here are my humble thoughts on the topic:

- Caelum's Mammoth toghether with Wingless and a Seraphine-Prophet casting Fanaticism are enough for early game expansion, hence a magic pretender and very strong scales is a must-have for me.

- Order=3,Sloth=-3,Cold=3. Apart from TempleGuards and Iclads, one does not need resources but one needs money for the mages - plenty of mages. One also better builts several Forts with all the money one has to get enough Iceclads/Stormguards and fly them together instead. Forts are also sensible to feed your troops, which are constantly starving if they move to far away. Hence I usually take growth 3 as well, but any positive growth is enough. I am not sure on the magic, but a postive scale is good if you have the points, so I usually distribute leftover-points equally between growth and magic, but I dont feel magic that necessary as others do here on this forum.

- Magic: I've decided that blood3,earth3,death3 on a Ghost King is pretty nice, but requires luck-1 to pay for (which I hate, because bad luck is bad for my morale). A fountain of blood is also pretty good, with blood3 and earth1: Why blood & earth? Simply to forge a blood-stone, which gives +1 earth (and earth gems), therefore giving you access to earth boots (earth+1), which in turn gives you access to dwarven hammers (if pretender does not have earth3 already) and, most important, staffs of elemental mastery. This gives you a high seraph with 4Air, 3Water, 4 Earth, who can cast nasty things like petrify and still has an armor, helmet & one misc available! Such a staff of elemental mastery is pretty nice on any other high seraph as well and I usually go for a high construction research anyway, since water bracelets are cheap and give all my high seraphs the capability to cast falling frost, which is pretty cute against most foes.

Having blood is nice as well, since even 3-4 sages with sanguine rods give you enough slaves to get an IceDevil or some StormDemons (via a Blood Seraph having a brazen skull for blood+1). If you use your fountain of blood for hunting (hey, your scales give enough gold anyway) on every other turn, you can easily get IceDevils pretty soon.


Comments?

[Chazar]

Oh, one question to those who suggested Air&Water on the pretender: What for?

I mean, if you use your pretender for combat, ok, but otherwise its wasted, since the seraphs can forge enough items to cast all air/water globals already by themselves. Therefore I always avoid Air&Water on my pretender. I'd rather by a Wizards Tower if I have any spare points left!

[Kel]

Chazar said:
Oh, one question to those who suggested Air&Water on the pretender: What for?

I mean, if you use your pretender for combat, ok



I use the pretender for combat.

- Kel

[Boron]

Chazar said:
Oh, one question to those who suggested Air&Water on the pretender: What for?

I mean, if you use your pretender for combat, ok, but otherwise its wasted, since the seraphs can forge enough items to cast all air/water globals already by themselves. Therefore I always avoid Air&Water on my pretender. I'd rather by a Wizards Tower if I have any spare points left!


w2 is earlygame for expansion quickness .
you always can cast breath of winter which is good with caelums cold scale .

air 2 is for earlygame mistform + mirrorimage .
lategame you need it for magic travel ( cloud trapeze ) .

[Boron]

Arryn said:
Graeme, don't bother trying to educate Tauren & Boron, it's a waste of time. I solved my problem with their Posts by using the ignore user functionality of the new forum software. Cleans things up rather nicely. /threads/images/Graemlins/icon45.gif


lol .
first it is a habit from cs + starcraft . if you type there with right capitalization and punctuation it is pointless anyways .

second english is not my native language but afaik only the word at the beginning of a sentence is written in capitalization in english and nothing else .
no big deal if i leave that out .

third in german orthography sucks . in every chat in german nobody cares about capitalization at all and in most Boards not too .


finally imo in 10-20 years it will be even included in a new reform to write everything without capitalization .
would be a rather good thing .



for a 50 year old person you behave really childish arryn .
to flame me and laugh at me only because i do no capitalization .
oh well there is a figure of speech : old people start becoming childs again .
perhaps you do this earlier than most other http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

but as it is i think it is more because i dared to say dominions is imbalanced .

so now you + cainehill use just the sligthest chance to flame me and try to make me look bad .
well just continue it just decreases your reputation more than mine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[Chazar]

Kel said:
I use the pretender for combat.




As I said, I agree with that purpose, but apart from combat...?

I do not like using Close-Combat-Pretenders, since having access to foreign magic to forge nice items like DwarvenHammers and StaffsofElementalMastery or to summon creatures like StormDemons or IceDevils is much more helpful than a single strong combatant. I guess this particularly is true for Caelum, which relies on magic! I mean, how do you get those items/summons if not by your pretender?

I found that except for Death, empowering is way out of question for Caelum, whose mages eat away the gems like vanilla ice on a hot day (even during Caelian midwinter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif !). Or do you think that one can get along without, summon more readily accessible creatures like those AirQueens? (Even with GaleGate up, I hardly have enough air gems for summoning left. I use them mainly for staffs of storms (every army and skirmish-squad should have one), bag of winds, combat-casting like wrathful sky and storm warriors,...)

[Boron]

Chazar said:

Kel said:
I use the pretender for combat.




As I said, I agree with that purpose, but apart from combat...?

I do not like using Close-Combat-Pretenders, since having access to foreign magic to forge nice items like DwarvenHammers and StaffsofElementalMastery or to summon creatures like StormDemons or IceDevils is much more helpful than a single strong combatant. I guess this particularly is true for Caelum, which relies on magic! I mean, how do you get those items/summons if not by your pretender?

I found that except for Death, empowering is way out of question for Caelum, whose mages eat away the gems like vanilla ice on a hot day (even during Caelian midwinter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif !). Or do you think that one can get along without, summon more readily accessible creatures like those AirQueens? (Even with GaleGate up, I hardly have enough air gems for summoning left. I use them mainly for staffs of storms (every army and skirmish-squad should have one), bag of winds, combat-casting like wrathful sky and storm warriors,...)



if you take e.g. a nataraja with f2,w2,e3,d3,a2 :
you do not intend to use her as a sc earlygame .
but if you have to defend you can use her as an earlygame sc in times of need .
she can sitesearch then earlygame , midgame she forges / summons and lategame you can equip her to a really frightening combattant .

d3 is imo a musthave for most nations , especially magically narrow nations .
then you can do 3 things :
summon spectres for magic flexibility
summon bane lords as thugs / small scs
forge a skull staff + the death+1 helmet : then you can summon wraith lords / demi lichs too

since d3 lets you cast soul vortex in combat it is useful there too .
Last but not least with death 5 ( with items ) you can armytravel via stygian path spell lategame .

oh btw my mentioned nataraja with dominion 6 costs "only" 420 points .
so you have 80 points left for scales + castle .

i like : order 3 , sloth 3 , cold 3 , growth 3 , magic 3 and misfortune 1 .

if you want another castle than a watchtower you can chose misfortune 2 for mauso and misfortune 3 for 40 admin castle .

you have exactly zero design points left so you feel "perfect" as a nice psychological sideeffect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

i wish i had chosen this pretender in thufirs new game as caelum and not my lame vq http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

[Kel]

Chazar said:

Kel said:
I use the pretender for combat.




As I said, I agree with that purpose, but apart from combat...?

I do not like using Close-Combat-Pretenders, since having access to foreign magic to forge nice items like DwarvenHammers and StaffsofElementalMastery or to summon creatures like StormDemons or IceDevils is much more helpful than a single strong combatant.



As a 3A (actually, mine might be 2A now, come to think of it) 2W 3E 3D pretender, it's not one or the other, the GK is beautiful for fulfilling multiple roles, that's specifically why I would use the GK and not, say, a Wyrm. If you are going to have 3E for hammer forging, why not have it be useful when you aren't hammer forging, by using it for Invulnerability ? How do you get the earth gems for forging hammers ? You use the same 3E to site search when it's convenient. I use the GK for all functions (except scouting, I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

You are 100% right that being able to cover the weaknesses in your summoning and forging is important when considering a pretender. However, the GK will be your first SC, by far, if you research alteration-3 and will give you a lot of early expansion, getting you to the point where you can make hammers or summon 'wicked fun things'(tm) that much faster.

Note 1: False horror is Alt-6, just one more level past Alt-5 for invulnerability so there is a research synergy, you aren't sidetracking your research by having a multi role pretender. Sometimes I go straight to alt-6 before sending seraphs out, sometimes I just go to alt-3 and switch back later on. Depends on game variables. If my national research took me down completely different paths (like Ctis does), I wouldn't use a GK.

Note 2: in my experience, an ethereal, chilled, air shielded, ironskinned, mistformed, mirrored, quickened (all available by Alt-3), fear producing pretender can be a lump of play-doh and pretty well take any normal indie province. Soul vortex is more of a bonus since it isn't as readily available, research wise. If you are fearful of losing him, keep him inside the highest dominion you can.

Like I said, I am not an expert and my ideas haven't been certified by any of the resident experts, that's just my take on it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

- Kel

[Chazar]

I am not arguing against using a GK as SC, but I just feel that I have time using him in battle, so I dont want to waste my design points in Air & Water.

Sure, my GK is site-searching to get me those earth gems (since Bloodslaves for bloodstones are only available until I get enough blood-sages and I only forge a few clams (4-8) to help with immediate gem shortage and to enable my astral-sages to cast probing). But since my mammoth occupy a province a turn and since my scouts usually find some easy targets for some windguided archers, my GK is heavily overstrained with site searching and as soon as I got enough earth gems for a hammer, he will barely be able to leave the lab. So I rather ensure good scales and never waste much thought in using him anywhere on the front. He might be of some use in defense, but I did that once (in hostile dominion - yes I had overextended) and immediately gathered two affilictions, which encourages me to stick im in a lab... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Kel]

I don't remember the exact numbers but adding A2W2 to a GK is only like what, 50-60 points ? Shouldn't hurt your scales too much, makes him more viable as an SC, gives him better site searching and access to more rituals, like ID's. All for 50-60 points.


Chazar said:
and as soon as I got enough earth gems for a hammer, he will barely be able to leave the lab.



Just curious, what does he do in the lab after forging the hammer ? I use him to forge a couple key items but I usually take a province, search the province while a lab is being built, forge something like a hammer or a path enhancer, and then move on and take another province.

If you don't intend to use him as an SC very much, you are right, water and air (especially) aren't that useful. You said you aren't arguing against using him as an SC but it really sounds to me like you are or, at least, you don't use him as an SC or a site searcher *as much* as I would in the early/middle game. Which is fine, of course...but that probably explains the difference in how we would build them.

- Kel

[Chazar]

I dont build a lab everywhere, so I need to move to lab (no big deal with winged shoes, but still a turn to go). If I have noting to forge, I usually return to site searching, but there is plenty to forge: Dwarven Hammers, EarthBloodStones (one for every earth high seraph, and once for an earth sage to create the earth boots), BrazenSkull (just one for a blood seraph to bind StormDemons), Deathmagic enhancement items, Hellswords. Apart from that, he summons death & blood creatures as needed. This usually kept him pretty occupied in the games I have tried him so far (which are only three). In the case that he bores himself to Death, I use him to bloodhunt for a turn, which gets him going again in the next...

This seems to keep him occupied - but my experience with the GhostKing is rather limited to three MP-games (and some unfinished SP-Games), and each configuration was a bit different, but I recall that I must have given him water to summon frost fiends and ice devil, which I am missing now in the Last game (D3E3B3) as it approaches turn 40...

[Chazar]

Another thing on human pretenders: Are they any good for Caelum? Nice scales require a high dominion to pay off. Thats my specific thing, ok, but in addition Caelum's economy depends on cold weather, which also demands a high dominion! So there is a combined benefit from high dominion which makes me think that dom-strength 7 is an absolute minimum for Caelum! I dont think that HeartOfWinter is worth it, but maybe that is different with a lower dominion strength, is it?

So human pretenders or the ArchSeraph are simply to expensive to get that dominion strength in my opinion, since even an increased path cost rarely outweighs the cost for boosting the dominion. This is why I dont use the VQ anymore (and I did not use her much in combat either).

So what is the cheapest chassis if you desire Death, Blood, Earth and a high dominion like 8? Which chassis leaves most points for scales & castle? I think the GhostKing and the Fountain of Blood are the only choices there...

[Boron]

Chazar said:
So what is the cheapest chassis if you desire Death, Blood, Earth and a high dominion like 8? Which chassis leaves most points for scales & castle? I think the GhostKing and the Fountain of Blood are the only choices there...



The cheapest solution is the FoB there .
A nataraja has 3 dominion as the Ghostking has .
The Ghostking is with your 3 magic paths only 36 points cheaper than the Nataraja , so exactly 1 scale . The Nataraja would be a better endgame SC though with your special 3 scales . Would be enough to cast invulnerability + soul vortex .

Just curious : why do you take dominion 8 with caelum ?
Dominion 6 saves you 63 points with a dominion 3 pretender . In times of need Caelum has really good priests with the Seraphines . Since you play with rather good scales you can afford building a few more temples/castles .
Dominion of 8 is imo with most nations not needed , only those who are very short in money and or lack priests like Ermor / Pan cw and Mictlan is special .
Because you said you bloodhunt with Caelum you build normally a castle in every bloodhunt province too otherwise your bloodhunters are an too easy target . Building a temple there doesn't hurt too .
Since you have lots of labs with bloodhunting in your empire anyways you can take dominion 6 instead and add Air 2 for traveling then .

[Chazar]

Boron said:
Just curious : why do you take dominion 8 with caelum ?




I've noticed that Caelian economy is much more stable during sommer with a Dominion score of 9-10. I rather neglect HeartOfWinter in favour of a high Dominion. In addition, I felt that it is a huge advantage in the beginning: The provinces you take switch pretty fast to my good scales with a high dominion, which accelerates expansion noticeably in my experience. It probably doesnt pay off if you play on big maps, but if you play on maps where allmost all indipendents are gone around turn 20, this gives you a nice headstart. A huge farmland province is well worth being site searched or bloodhunted by my pretender early on: Its income is insignificant if its not cold and orderly, but with the high strength, the pretender residing there spreads dominion easily to a higher number, resulting in a quick scale change - and having order3, cold3 & growth3 makes a huge difference in income for big provinces!

Also, I dont have a huge blood economy: I usually hunt with 3-4 blood sages with rods in a single >5000 pop province + my pretender wherever he happens to me. Caelum isnt a blood nation, so I only go for a few StormDemons, some IceDevils and some Hellswords. I also do not necessarily built a lab (caelian scouts are quite fine for transport, since I need bloodslave in big portions anyway) nor a castle in that province, but I shift the blood hunters if I have another province suitable for bloodhunting i.e. <8000 pop which needs a castle. I also choose either a Castle or a WizardsTower, since I do not see the point of mere WatchTowers. My fliers might relief a siege, but still they might need two turn to arrive or one turn to cast a WrathfulSkies with a skirmishing force. Hence I do not have that much castles, I
rather spent my money on troops and mages to throw at my enemies. I built just enough castles to defend chokepoints and to turn all my gold into mages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gifSo I am usually lacking the provinces and castles to built more than a 5 temples anyway before I am engaged in active warfare, where my money is needed at the front...


But I post this here to learn, not to proselytize (we are out of the game, aint we?) so please more comments about improvements and flaws in my theory!?!

[Endoperez]

Caelum needs high dominions to get money (cold scale down & order/port/whatever up), not the other way up. Also you don't need to use that much money for temples then, and you are more restistant to the lategame attacks (namely Ghost Riders) that were said to be too powerful as they could raid all your temples outside castles.

Most nations can do with less, but Abysia and Caelum want high dominion as their income largely depends on right temperature.

[Boron]

Oh i thought you try to get a bloodstone production running with your pretender and then e.g. spectres as additional forgers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Spectres alone make D3 worthwhile being taken for most nations imo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Curious again : how do you catch the ice devils with Caelum before Abysia/Mictlan summon all of them ?
I think you don't mean wished ice devils .

[Chazar]

Boron said:
Curious again : how do you catch the ice devils with Caelum before Abysia/Mictlan summon all of them ?



After the first blood-stone, all my slaves are usually reserved for that. Research is not an issue, since I am researching quite much. So far this worked, but I never played against Abysia/Mictlan in those games. At which turn would you assume them all to be summoned?