From the mouth of Aristotle

[Zen]

"A likely impossibility is always preferable to an unconvincing possibility"

[Arryn]

He's BACK?! Yea!!

[johan osterman]

Welcome back.

[Kristoffer O]

/threads/images/Graemlins/icon25.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Welcome back!

[archaeolept]

backwards Welcome!


hmmm, somehow i'm a bit suspicious of the translation...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Zen]

I'd like to first thank the Academy. Then, God of course. That fiery impaitent Lord of Fruits and Birds! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I'd also like to say, "Great Job Illwinter" for the duo of patches, excellent work all around and the speed with which the brokennessness was fixed.

You've always lived up to my very high recommendations!

Thanks Team Illwinter (and other Swedes!).

[Maltrease]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Greetings!

[Arryn]

So, Zen, are you going to do something masochistically silly and volunteer to moderate again? Or are you just going to "relax" and spend all your time being your normal, extremely helpful self answering everyone's questions and gifting us with your wisdom and insight -- and crushing people in MP games?

We sincerely and thoroughly missed ya!

[johan osterman]

Now all we need is Norfleet and everything will be back to normal again.

[archaeolept]

:O

not even in jest, not even in jest...

[Arryn]

johan osterman said:
Now all we need is Norfleet and everything will be back to normal again.

While I miss Norfy's dry wit, and his sarcasm (when he didn't go overboard), "normal" isn't always a good thing. Things seem to be better now. If one ignores the 3-way flamefest presently going on between Zapmeister, archaeolept, and Panther ...

[Nagot Gick Fel]

johan osterman said:
Now all we need is Norfleet and everything will be back to normal again.



"That is not dead which can eternally lie..." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Zen]

"Evil draws men together." from Rhetoric

[Arryn]

Zen said:
"Evil draws men together."

I thought it was dancing girls that did that? OTOH, in some men's minds, there's no difference. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

[Zen]

Women are inherently evil thus, they always draw men http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Zen]

Arryn said:
So, Zen, are you going to do something masochistically silly and volunteer to moderate again? Or are you just going to "relax" and spend all your time being your normal, extremely helpful self answering everyone's questions and gifting us with your wisdom and insight -- and crushing people in MP games?



Unless IW needs the stickies managed, I don't think I will. I'm sure I'll end up answering everyones questions and gifting out little white packets of powder (along with wisdom and insight). And the crushing of people in MP is just a foregone conclusion.

I was also thinking about maybe offering up a miniature Modding Guide, until the Parrot can provide us with the official one, for all those Modders out there. As well as releasing a section of .map files.

[Arryn]

Zen said:
Women are inherently evil thus, they always draw men http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Of course men believe this. Women are smarter (and far more cunning), which makes men feel insecure, and thus men shift blame for their shortcomings to we poor innocent gals. heehee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Zen]

Arryn said:

Of course men believe this. Women are smarter (and far more cunning), which makes men feel insecure, and thus men shift blame for their shortcomings to we poor innocent gals. heehee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Back FemmeFreud! Back I say!

I'm still of the opinion it has to do with legs, mmm'nnn, and the top part on the legs, mmmm'nnnn. And eyes, dark mysterious eyes along with big racks!

I of course may be wrong, but it's not too often that you see a group of guys oogling a woman for their shortcomings, but for other ... comings.

Either way, I think Aristotle had it right, as you've proven!

[Boron]

Zen said:
Women are inherently evil thus, they always draw men http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Not if the man is gay . The most prominent example what can happen then is hitler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif .

Anyway welcome back zen . Hopefully you will crush me in a future game too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Zen]

Godwin's Law!

Alert, alert!

[Arryn]

Zen said:
Unless IW needs the stickies managed, I don't think I will.

I have "claimed" the AAR and links stickies (I haven't actually updated the links one yet), and Liga's taken the mods sticky. The rest are up for grabs.

Not to begin with the (inevitable) pestering (and to head off everyone else's questions on this subject), but are you planning to release those two (new) guides you had been working on? If you need assistance with editing or anything, just let me know. Else, if your time doesn't permit you to finish them, could you send what you have of them to me and/or Liga so that we (or whomever) can pick up where you left off? (I trust you still have my email address.) BTW, if while you were away you updated any of your other docs or maps, please send them to me, at your leisure, so I can update what I host on my site.

Oh, and once again, welcome back. Did I say I missed ya? (some things are worth repeating)

[Kel]

I don't know what's evil, but I know what I like.

- Kel

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Not if the man is gay . The most prominent example what can happen then is hitler

Hitler wasn't gay. Amongst his many psychological flaws, he appears to have enjoyed being abused and degraded by women (in private), whom he then had murdered later on (couldn't allow anyone to know he's sick and perverted). I'll leave out the details of his perVersions. BTW, Hitler married Eva Braun hours before his death, in case you've forgotten.

[Ivan Pedroso]

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Welcome back Zen http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


johan osterman said:
Now all we need is Norfleet and everything will be back to normal again.



Hahahaha http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I'm inclined to agree.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Boron said:
Not if the man is gay . The most prominent example what can happen then is hitler

Hitler wasn't gay. Amongst his many psychological flaws, he appears to have enjoyed being abused and degraded by women (in private), whom he then had murdered later on (couldn't allow anyone to know he's sick and perverted). I'll leave out the details of his perVersions. BTW, Hitler married Eva Braun hours before his death, in case you've forgotten.



Well it isn't important but Hitler was gay . Lothar Machtan wrote a 400 page long book about this were he gathered info and proved that Hitler was gay .
This is a main reason why he wanted always to become an artist because in that time only artists were allowed to be gay .
He probably even had an "affair" with Röhm .
But as politician this was at that time a No-No and so to hide this he murdered Röhm and made laws against Gays .

Eva Braun was only "camouflage" for the public .

[Arryn]

Roehm was gay. Hitler wasn't. Hitler despised gays. It was one of the reasons Hitler ordered that Roehm be shot once Roehm's usefulness was at an end.

Machtan is in a very small minority where it comes to historians' opinions concerning Hitler. To the best of my knowledge, no other reputable historian has agreed with Machtan's carefully orchestrated conclusions.

A few small details that might interest you:

Himmler had an extensive dossier on Hitler. And from 1943 on, Himmler was debating how best to remove Hitler and save the Reich (and assume control himself). Had Hitler been gay, Hitler's inner circle would have had him killed immediately (and used his homosexuality in addition to his mismanagement of the war against the USSR as justification for their actions). If not Himmler, Bormann would have done it.

Had Hitler been gay why would he have bothered to marry his "window-dressing" just before he died?

Hitler had at least 3 girlfriends prior to Eva. Hitler was no more capable of keeping the details of those affairs secret than he was of keeping any alleged homosexuality a secret. Especially when he had plenty of sharks swimming around him looking for any chance to strike at him and thus rise in power themselves.

BTW, I've been studying history, in particular Nazi Germany, for about 35 years and I'm still considering doing my Master's thesis on this subject.

[Gandalf Parker]

Of course I got to welcome Zen back when he requested I reinstate his login but I will add one here (so nobody thinks Im all snobbish or something) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Arryn]

Gandalf Parker said:
so nobody thinks Im all snobbish or something http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You? Hardly. Least of all with a moniker like "Gandalf".

[Boron]

Arryn said:
BTW, I've been studying history, in particular Nazi Germany, for about 35 years and I'm still considering doing my Master's thesis on this subject.



Wow cool . I have history as a hobby and especially world war 2 is one of my most favourite areas . I am most interested there though in the military history http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

The book of Machtan is iirc quite new ( 2000 or 2001 ) . Unfortunately because Hitler was so evil research on Hitler's private life was a taboo for many years and when Machtan wrote his book a lot of contemporary witnesses were dead already .
But during world war 1 and some years after Machtan had still so many examples that he prove i think good enough at the time he wrote the book ( he said that unfortunately some contemporary witnesses were e.g. in prison until e.g. 1980 and asked questions by historians but nobody asked them if hitler was gay and when he wrote his book they were dead already ) . Nonetheless i think his numerous examples are enough to prove it .
But future will hopefully bring even more clear results pro or contra .

When he became more popular then ( ca. 1928 + ) he concealed his sexuality very well then and when he was in power he eliminated most of those who knew his little secret .


Do you have more info about that dossier from Himmler when he started to make it or a source where i can read it ?
Göring was another of his companions who wanted to replace Hitler .
I think the problem of both but especially of Himmler was that he was not very liked in puplic . And Hitler had iirc always named a successor if something happens to him who never was Himmler .
And Himmler + Göring had both a lot of power and both wanted to become Hitlers successors so perhaps they decided to wait for the "endsieg" and get rid of Hitler after that by an assasination . Especially for Himmler since he was the chief of the Gestapo too iirc that should have been easy . This is just my personal speculation though and i would love to hear your thoughts about these speculations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .


Arryn said: Had Hitler been gay why would he have bothered to marry his "window-dressing" just before he died?



Well this was only a few hours/days before he suicided . It was one of his Last in vain tries to glorify him and to conceal that he is gay .

He often said he is married to germany and can't care for a woman too . Iirc he never introduced Eva Braun to the public too and only after the war begun his inner circle who was with him on the "berghof" knew that Eva Braun was his "girlfriend" .

And there was a niece of Hitler who made suicide because she was in unhappy love with Hitler too .


Arryn said:
Had Hitler been gay, Hitler's inner circle would have had him killed immediately (and used his homosexuality in addition to his mismanagement of the war against the USSR as justification for their actions). If not Himmler, Bormann would have done it.


Göring was responsible for the disaster against the soviet union a lot too . With Himmler i am not totally sure but i guess he didn't get much fame too .
And a bit later Hitler made him i think it was called "Reichsfeldmarschall" but Himmler failed there catastrophically too .

But you are very right : If Himmler had such plans in late 1943 after the disaster of stalingrad and the failed counter offensive at kursk the opportunity for him to get rid of Hitler + Göring would have been quite well .
The question is why he didn't do that .
Perhaps he feared the chaos that would have happened then probably and perhaps even led to a civil war .
Only some days of chaos without one clear leader would have been perhaps enough for the Soviets to exploit this and break through the front and encircle large parts of the east armies .
I think during a war it is very hard to replace a dictator and become the new dictator .


A grim sidequestion : Who of these 2 do you think was even more evil and insane : Stalin or Hitler ?

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Nonetheless i think his numerous examples are enough to prove it .
But future will hopefully bring even more clear results pro or contra .

I have a book that asserts, and quite well-reasoned I might add (which includes detailed forensic evidence), that Hitler did not commit suicide (he was shot by an SS officer), and that the body alleged to be that of Eva Braun wasn't her, but someone else (Eva likely died attempting to escape Berlin a day or so later, and was never found in the rubble). I mention this because that book is at least as "thorough" as Machtan's book, yet that author, too, seems alone in his conclusions. One book, no matter how "good" it may appear, does not constitute "proof" of an assertion. Especially if other experts in the field fail to agree with the assertions.


Boron said:
Do you have more info about that dossier from Himmler when he started to make it or a source where i can read it ?

I'll see if I can dig up something for you Online. The actual dossier is, no doubt, buried in a top-secret vault in either the U.S. or Russian archives. The only "evidence" to its existence are the numerous people who knew Himmler quite well and who have alluded to it over the years.


Boron said:
Göring was another of his companions who wanted to replace Hitler .

Not really. But Goring was a highly decorated WW1 officer who thought Hitler was more-or-less inept (which Hitler was) and Goring's ego pretty much assured that he thought he could do a better job. Which he couldn't, as the Battle of Britain and Stalingrad's relief proved beyond any doubt. Though Goring couldn't have done worse than Hitler, either. (It's very hard to imagine anyone doing a worse job of managing the war than Hitler did.)


Boron said:
I think the problem of both but especially of Himmler was that he was not very liked in puplic .

Goring was actually popular. Himmler, OTOH, most assuredly wasn't.


Boron said:
And Hitler had iirc always named a successor if something happens to him who never was Himmler .

After the Hess fiasco, it was Bormann. At the end of the war, Hitler actually named Doenitz as his successor.


Boron said:
Especially for Himmler since he was the chief of the Gestapo too

The Gestapo chief was actually Heinrich Mueller, who in turn reported to Himmler.


Boron said:
And a bit later Hitler made him i think it was called "Reichsfeldmarschall" but Himmler failed there catastrophically too .

Himmler was "Reichsfuhrer SS", a unique and higher-ranking title (in essence, a "six-star" rank).


Boron said:
But you are very right : If Himmler had such plans in late 1943 after the disaster of stalingrad and the failed counter offensive at kursk the opportunity for him to get rid of Hitler + Göring would have been quite well .
The question is why he didn't do that .

Himmler's almost schizophrenic mindset on the subject of Hitler. On the one hand he adored Hitler and had immense personal loyalty to him. On the other hand, the cold, calculating part of him knew that Hitler had to go. In between, Himmler's fear of what would happen to him should Hitler find out that he was plotting against him. Days before the war's end, Hitler did find out and ordered Himmler's death, after stripping Himmler of all his titles and offices.


Boron said:
A grim sidequestion : Who of these 2 do you think was even more evil and insane : Stalin or Hitler ?

That is a VERY tough call. Stalin (by far) had more of his own people killed than all the deaths that Hitler caused. But (syphillis aside), Stalin was more ruthless than he was outright evil. Hitler, OTOH, was genocidal. And demented. And perverted. I'd have to pick Hitler.

Saddam Hussein is in the same league as Hitler, BTW.

[Boron]

Very interesting answers Arryn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . You are right that one book can be very reasoned but maybe not correct . This is why i wrote but future will hopefully show more arguments pro or contra Hitler being gay .

Arryn said:
Himmler's almost schizophrenic mindset on the subject of Hitler. On the one hand he adored Hitler and had immense personal loyalty to him. On the other hand, the cold, calculating part of him knew that Hitler had to go. In between, Himmler's fear of what would happen to him should Hitler find out that he was plotting against him. Days before the war's end, Hitler did find out and ordered Himmler's death, after stripping Himmler of all his titles and offices.

Not really. But Goring was a highly decorated WW1 officer who thought Hitler was more-or-less inept (which Hitler was) and Goring's ego pretty much assured that he thought he could do a better job. Which he couldn't, as the Battle of Britain and Stalingrad's relief proved beyond any doubt. Though Goring couldn't have done worse than Hitler, either. (It's very hard to imagine anyone doing a worse job of managing the war than Hitler did.)



Göring at least tried to replace Hitler after his dead . Though it is so sad i find this always amusing that Göring really thought he becomes Germany's first "Bundeskanzler" when the war was off .
You are right probably that Himmler was more dangerous there .
If he would have had in addition to his "Waffen-SS" the Airforce which Göring had he would have perhaps killed Hitler already . But in the current state both had significant powers and both didn't want to grant the otherone more power so they "balanced" them .

Btw i am not that familiar with Stalin do you know if he had that significant opposition in his "inner circle" too with most of them only lurkering for a chance to get rid of him ? And do you know how many assasination attemps were made on Stalin ?


Arryn said:

Boron said:
A grim sidequestion : Who of these 2 do you think was even more evil and insane : Stalin or Hitler ?

That is a VERY tough call. Stalin (by far) had more of his own people killed than all the deaths that Hitler caused. But (syphillis aside), Stalin was more ruthless than he was outright evil. Hitler, OTOH, was genocidal. And demented. And perverted. I'd have to pick Hitler.

Saddam Hussein is in the same league as Hitler, BTW.


Stalin always seemed so pleasant in his productions like the good old uncle .
Hitler seemed always like a maladjusted child .
But Stalin had more time to let him look better and he had the "won the war" bonus .

I heard in a documentation some days ago for the first time that Stalin had made some really ugly things with his own population for which i even don't know a german similiar action :
Coming once 20-30 minutes too late to work was a crime . You got a few years prison for that . During the war it was modified : You had to go in a punishment batallion .
Your main job there was called euphemistically armed reconnoissance . That meant you had to attack the german lines and the generals observed then the german counter fire to evaluate if an attack was promising .
If you were seriously wounded you were allowed to retreat but if you weren't you were shot .

Furthermore no russian soldier was allowed to go into war captivity . After the war most of the freed russian soldiers were sent into "gulags" for lots of years because they made the crime of becoming a war captive .
And after the war Stalin once again murdered most of his officers . He would have murdered even Schukov but he was too popular .

So i really don't know who of the 2 was even worse .

Saddam is of course evil too but he isn't in the same league as Hitler and Stalin . He couldn't do as much damage fortunately only local and not semiglobal like Hitler and Stalin .
To make a dominioncomparison : Saddam would be a devil while Hitler + Stalin would be Arch demons .

If Saddam would have had really a nuke i am quite convinced that he wouldn't have had a rocket to shoot it only into germany and definitely not to shoot it far enough to hit the usa http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . Basically only the soviet union and the usa have this knowledge . France e.g. has no ICBMs they need to workaround this by putting them on submarines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif .

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Btw i am not that familiar with Stalin do you know if he had that significant opposition in his "inner circle" too with most of them only lurkering for a chance to get rid of him ?

He didn't. Beria made sure that there were no threats to Stalin. Not even minor ones. Stalin's regime was by far more ruthless and efficient than Nazi Germany at quashing any dissent. Also, you must remember that, unlike Germany, Russia at this time lacked a (well-educated) noble class, especially one that was highly skilled at the arts of war and politics as was Germany's.


Boron said:
And do you know how many assasination attemps were made on Stalin ?

I don't know offhand. I could look it up if you need me to.


Boron said:
Your main job there was called euphemistically armed reconnoissance . That meant you had to attack the german lines and the generals observed then the german counter fire to evaluate if an attack was promising .
If you were seriously wounded you were allowed to retreat but if you weren't you were shot .

The Russians elevated the concept of "cannon fodder" to all-time lows.


Boron said:
Saddam is of course evil too but he isn't in the same league as Hitler and Stalin .

If you take the time to study the rise of Saddam, and his rule, you will learn that he's as wicked as Hitler (and as perverse in his own ways), and as ruthless as Stalin (perhaps even more so). The ONLY thing that has kept him from joining Hitler and Stalin's ranks is that as the leader of a (relatively) small nation (as far as industrial might and population goes) he never had the chance to commit crimes on the same scale. But he most assuredly would have had he been able to.


Boron said:
Basically only the soviet union and the usa have this knowledge . France e.g. has no ICBMs they need to workaround this by putting them on submarines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif .

You left out China, India, and Pakistan. As well as the UK and North Korea. And Israel. France does have ICBMs. Their subs carry 64 of them, each missile with a 6000km range and 6 MIRVs with a 100-150Kt yield. 6000km is more than enough range to qualify as an ICBM.

[The Panther]

So, Zen returns and we start talking about Hitler? What gives???

[Arryn]

The Panther said:
What gives???

The usual. You're fairly new here, so you aren't used to it ... yet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Boron said:
Basically only the soviet union and the usa have this knowledge . France e.g. has no ICBMs they need to workaround this by putting them on submarines http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif .

You left out China, India, and Pakistan. As well as the UK and North Korea. And Israel. France does have ICBMs. Their subs carry 64 of them, each missile with a 6000km range and 6 MIRVs with a 100-150Kt yield. 6000km is more than enough range to qualify as an ICBM.


Yeah i left them out with purpose http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Israel has them from the Usa .
Great Britain is now more or less the little ally of the Usa . Blair is like Bushs dog .
In ancient times ( before the american civil war http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif ) Britain was still like the caring father for the Usa .
Now they have gotten old and the Usa cares for them .
Sure any patriotic British citizen will hate me for saying this but Great Britains great times are long over . Now it is just another european country like France or Germany . Still remarkable but not any longer a big power .
Basically they have only the choice wheter join the EU as an rather important country ( like france and germany the 2 historic arch enemies ) or become the Ally of the Usa if they still want to play a major role in the world .
Afaik China has only "shortrange" missiles which can target japan or huge parts of russia . In some years they may become the successor of Russia as second big power in the world .
Pakistan and India have mainly short range missiles too which can target each other but not much farer .

With North Korea i didn't know that they possess good enough ICBMs to target the Usa .

That Russia had no
(well-educated) noble class, especially one that was highly skilled at the arts of war and politics as was Germany's.


is not so surprising since Stalin killed with his Great Officer Purge the Last remaining onces .
I think it was Schukov who wanted to make a preventive strike on germany when they massed their troops in spring 1941 for operation Barbarossa . Stalin refused because he didn't believe it .
Really sad because i think this preventive strike would have perhaps ended World war 2 a lot earlier .
Russia had at that time lots of KV-1 series tanks and already lots of T-34/76 ( Both about 1000 each ) .
The only question is if the at that time still relative impressive german air force would have been enough to stop the russian advance to Berlin .
So if Stalin hadn't executed most of his good officiers but studied the german blizkrieg strategy really only the german air force would have been between him and Berlin in 1941/42 already i think given how inferior the german army was at that time to the russian army technically and equipmentwise .
Only the good german tactics / strategies combined with Stalins officiermurdering + his own military incompetence similiar to Hitlers made the german "success" in 1941 and early 1942 possible .
He gave away the command to the army then to his generals and the success hadn't to wait long and was already great in stalingrad .

Btw are you familiar with german/russian tanks ?
Do you think that Steel panthers world at war is a really superb/realistic simulation of that or rather not ?
If you think not please say why .

[Boron]

The Panther said:
So, Zen returns and we start talking about Hitler? What gives???


Yeah that happens unfortunately always too quick that the topic drafts away from the main topic .
The only thread which i remember where it didn't draft for 200 Posts was when norfleet was caught cheating http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Israel has them from the Usa .

You really should check your facts before you speak/write. Israel developed its own nuclear devices, with the clandestine assistance of the then-racist South African government.


Boron said:
Afaik China has only "shortrange" missiles which can target japan or huge parts of russia .

Quit guessing, please, or making assumptions without actually doing any research. Repeating my advice above, check your facts BEFORE you post. China has 20 ICBMs with 13000km range. That's enough to hit the continental US.


Boron said:
With North Korea i didn't know that they possess good enough ICBMs to target the Usa .

They can hit Alaska and Japan. That's more than sufficiently dangerous. But even short-range missiles versus South Korea are a big problem.


Boron said:
The only question is if the at that time still relative impressive german air force would have been enough to stop the russian advance to Berlin .

Easily. The Soviets lacked the logistical capability to support massive operations against Germany in 1941. It's questionable whether they even could have done it in 1942 assuming they had attacked first in 1941 and kept the fighting away from their own factories. Russia had more men and tanks, but they had a bad organizational structure and poor morale. Even after the Finnish Winter War and the lessons they learned from it.


Boron said:
Btw are you familiar with german/russian tanks ?

Very much so.


Boron said:
Do you think that Steel panthers world at war is a really superb/realistic simulation of that or rather not ?
If you think not please say why .

They've done the best that can be done given the limitations of that game's scale and design. There are more realistic games, but they are not turn-based overhead-view. You have to go to the 3D-style games to get better realism, such as Combat Mission.

[Stormbinder]

Arryn said:
That is a VERY tough call. Stalin (by far) had more of his own people killed than all the deaths that Hitler caused. But (syphillis aside), Stalin was more ruthless than he was outright evil. Hitler, OTOH, was genocidal. And demented. And perverted. I'd have to pick Hitler.





I would have to agree with Arryn's conclusion. I also studied a lot of history and in particular the history of WW2, this is my major hobby.

Both Stalin and Hitler were mass murderers, but Hitler was the only one in this "unholy" pair who murdered based upon nationality. Stalin mostly murdered whose that he though to be potentially dungerious to his reign or to "cummunism" ideas, he didn't use henocide against any particular nation. Although Stalin certanly murdered more of his own people than Hitler. According the various sourses anywhere from 15 to 25 millions died in Stalins's GULAGs during his reign. But than again Hitler murdered much more in the global scale.



As Arryn said it is a very tough call, but I would aslo pick up Hitler as being more evil of these two.



EDIT: As for the suggestions that Stalin was going to attack Germany in 1941 - it is pure nonesense. I have read few books about this very subject, written recently by few authors, who became quite popualr and was milking this idea for all it worth. Thir facts and arguments didn't hold much water, and they were riped appart by real professional historians.

That being said, yt is possible that Stalin was thinkng about backstabing Hitler somewhere in the distant future, if Hitler would be stupid enough to allow him to do it. But that was at best the remote possibility at least few years later, assuming Germany would provide him an opening. Stalin and Red Army was nowhere near being prepared for the invasion into Germany in 1941, and to face Wermaht war machine on their own turf, the best army in the world who have just crashed the every major and minor military power in continantal Europe. Especailly not after the beating Red Army itself got from the tiny nation in Winter War, and Stalin understood it very well.

[Boron]

My assumptions about nuclear missiles were only from an extreme viewpoint i fear which i tried to "simulate" .
The book/film The Sum of All Fears from Tom Clancy has impressed me there .
The scenario seemed pretty realistic to me when the Usa thought about a preventive strike on Russia . And in a few years if Bush keeps the power and gets another likeminded republican successor with better technics and his new anti-missile programs when they show results i guess it is even more realistic .

So if China would really shoot all their 20 long range nukes on the Usa the Usa would strike back , China would not exist anymore .
Since the newest military development is always kept secret i am not sure how it would exactly be but even with the current technic perhaps Patriots and other anti-missile missiles would even destroy 30 , 50 , 70% ?? of the incoming 20 nukes . A few would still hit and do some harm .

My fear is that in a few years some fanatic militarists may calculate the risk of being hit as worthy doing a preventive strike . If the new SDI Bush lets develop now in 5-10 years can kill 95/99% of all incoming missiles this might get a big problem .

And there is always the other problem mentioned in The Sum of All Fears that terrorists may get a small bomb and smuggle them to New York / Berlin etc. , just to the most important city with which nation they are "at war" atm.



Do you have played combat mission yourself ? I made a quick google search and saw it is from CDV http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif .
I have Sudden strike this is one of their earlier WW 2 games and totally unrealistic . From my short glance at a few screenshots Combat mission 3 just looks like a sudden strike in 3d http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif .
I don't care if the game is turn based or RTS but i want an as realistic penetration model like in steel panthers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . If Combat mission 3 has this and you can convince that i am interested in it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
But in sudden strike it didn't matter if you attacked a Tiger or a Panzer II with a small anti tank rifle . The Tiger just needed 2-3 more hits .
And 3-4 Panzer II could still kill a Josef Stalin 2/3 tank. So if this is still true with combat mission 3 or another such game you suggest i think it is not realistic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Stormbinder may i ask you too if you know any good realistic world war 2 strategy game ?
Your detailed post where you gave advice to Tinktank seeking a good rpg impressed me . You said there rpgs are your favourite genre but perhaps you have a good advice for me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If you and Arryn recommend the same game to me it is even better because then i know that this game is most likely good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

At the moment i like steel panthers world at war most tactically and i think Hearts of iron is quite good strategically .

I am really looking forward to HoI 2 and world in flames from matrixgames .
Any other recommendations or do i already have the probably best games for this genre for my special taste ?

[Arryn]

Boron said:
My assumptions about nuclear missiles were only from an extreme viewpoint i fear which i tried to "simulate" .
The book/film The Sum of All Fears from Tom Clancy has impressed me there .

You used a totally fictional story that Clancy wrote as the basis of your saying that in REAL LIFE the Israeli's got their nukes from the U.S.? Wow. I wonder (and shudder) to think what other things you might believe based upon fictional sources?


Boron said:
The scenario seemed pretty realistic to me when the Usa thought about a preventive strike on Russia .

While I enjoyed this story (so much so that I own both the book and the DVD), it's a work of fiction. There are numerous flaws in the story if you know what to look for and where to look for them. But they do not detract from the story because it is very well written and they are well hidden and/or subtle. Tom Clancy knows his art (writing and research), which includes what facts to alter and how, so that reality gets distorted (for the sake of security) and fiction gets a taste of "reality".


Boron said:
And in a few years if Bush keeps the power

Ye gods I hope not.



Boron said:
So if China would really shoot all their 20 long range nukes on the Usa the Usa would strike back , China would not exist anymore .

More or less. They'd get sent right back to the age of feudal warlords, not that present-day China is much more advanced, socially.


Boron said:
My fear is that in a few years some fanatic militarists may calculate the risk of being hit as worthy doing a preventive strike . If the new SDI Bush lets develop now in 5-10 years can kill 95/99% of all incoming missiles this might get a big problem .

The U.S. will never engage in a nuclear first-strike. However, a non-nuclear pre-emptive strike is possible ... which if executed as ineptly as the war in Iraq was, would simply trigger the other side into launching first. It doesn't matter who launches first. Everyone loses. All rational military and political leaders have known this for 50+ years. What's scary is that the leaders of some nations (like N. Korea, Iran, etc.) don't care if they lose millions and their country becomes a wasteland. Some of these fanatic morons actually think dying is good. It's just too bad we can't let them have their wish (to die) without suffering collateral damage in the process. The more fanatics kill themselves, the cleaner the gene pool becomes. Now if we could only figure out a safe way to make them happy ...


Boron said:
And there is always the other problem mentioned in The Sum of All Fears that terrorists may get a small bomb and smuggle them to New York / Berlin etc. , just to the most important city with which nation they are "at war" atm.

That's the only realistic, and hence truly scary, part of the movie. The unrealistic parts of the movie are how the terrorists got their bomb, and what the US and Russia did after the attack. But it's a movie. A certain amount of suspension of disbelief is necessary. Just don't forget that after you've finished watching the movie you need to turn your disbelief back on and not confuse what you just saw with reality.


Boron said:
Do you have played combat mission yourself ?

No. I rarely play that style of game.

[Arryn]

Boron said:
I am really looking forward to HoI 2 and world in flames from matrixgames .
Any other recommendations or do i already have the probably best games for this genre for my special taste ?

WIF is a Gary Grigsby game, and his games are very detailed, yet notoriously buggy and awkward to play. WIF may be an exception, but GG's track record is lousy. Personally, I'm waiting for reviews before I waste money on yet another GG piece of {self-censored}.

I'll probably get HoI2, despite knowing that Paradox cannot code a competent AI. I bought EU, EU2, HoI, and Vicky. Which means I'm {choose one or more of the following}: dense, a glutton for punishment, stubborn, or desperate for strategy games.

[Stormbinder]

Boron said:
Stormbinder may i ask you too if you know any good realistic world war 2 strategy game ?
Your detailed post where you gave advice to Tinktank seeking a good rpg impressed me . You said there rpgs are your favourite genre but perhaps you have a good advice for me too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

If you and Arryn recommend the same game to me it is even better because then i know that this game is most likely good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

At the moment i like steel panthers world at war most tactically and i think Hearts of iron is quite good strategically .

I am really looking forward to HoI 2 and world in flames from matrixgames .
Any other recommendations or do i already have the probably best games for this genre for my special taste ?




Heh, I must admit your guess was correct. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I generally play only two types of computer games - RPG and turn-based strategy games, with very rare exceptions from other genres. Although computer RPG comes first for me, as I mentioned in that thread.

This being said, if you are looking for the best WW2 strategy game on tactical level, than Combat Mission:Bararossa to Berlin(with its desert expansion) beats any competition, hands down. It is the best and most realistic computer simulator of WW2 tactical level battle in any computer game so far. The level of details and autenticity is really amazing. It aslo have pretty good AI, tons of players-made mods/scenarios and compaigns (some of which are even better than official ones), and very active and loyal players community. Once you will managed to beat AI with odds against you, you can start some MP battles, which are a real bLast against good opponents. I still remeber in details my Last stand defense of ruble that was Stlaingrad's central square against wave after wave of advancing german armor and infatry, as well as other MP battles. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Of the more traditinal WW2 games, played on the operational level, I would recommend SP:WAW (make sure to get some official compaings from Matrix, they significantly increase fun from the game). Another great strategic WW2 game is Korsun Pocket, which was released about a year ago.


Finally if you are looking for the WW2 game on the global scope, where you control the nation rather than individual units or sqaurds, than I would suggest Hearts of Iron (make sure to download all the patches, CORE, everthing. Look around their forums and ask for advice which mods you should install).


The general gameplay style of HOI is mostly similar to EU1/2. Although in my opinion EU, especially EU2 was a significantly better game. Still HOF is quite good, despite some if its shortages. Based upon my experience people quickly form love/hate relaitions with it, they either completely fall in love with it or think quite badly of it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif Which actually is pretty tipical for all Paradox's games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


EDIT: NM, I just noticed that you have already mentioned HOI and said that you are waiting for HOI2, so you know what I am talking about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif



Anyway, these are the best WW2 strategic games that I have played so far. Good luck!

[Arryn]

I agree with Stormy's game choices. Imagine that. He and I actually agree on some things. Shocking. Truly shocking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Stormbinder]

Arryn said:
I agree with Stormy's game choices. Imagine that. He and I actually agree on some things. Shocking. Truly shocking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



Acutally I find that you and me agree with each other quite often. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For example I agree with 99% of all the things you have said in this tread regarding history, WW2 figures and facts, as well as more recent developments regarding Iraq and Northerb Korea. It is not often you meet the person who actually knows what he is talking about, when he talks about history. Most people on the net as well as in RL think of themselves as major history biffs after reading 1 book on the subject. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I am glad that you are obviously not one of them, which is not surprising if you have been studing history for 35 years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



The problem is that since I am quite lazy I find myself much more willing to post when I *disagree* with somebody and want to correct what I believe is some mistake, than when I agree with the person. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Maybe that's why you might get impression that we disagree more often than we don't. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Regards,
Stormbinder

[Boron]

Wow thanks Stormbinder and Arryn .
Your mentioned Combat Mission : Barbarossa looks really awesome even better than steel panthers .

They are up to Combat Mission 3 now .
Do you own all parts of that series or are the newer ones realtime and less accurate and because of that not as good as your mentioned Combat Mission : Barbarossa ?


Happy that you both mentioned HoI too .
My main gripe with HoI is that once you have teched out everything you have not much to do .

How do you like Victoria Stormbinder ? They will include parts in HoI 2 . I personally liked victoria expect for the daily revolution checks which made warmongering what i loved most too painful for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[deccan]

You've really hijacked Zen's "I'm back" thread, Boron, and your Pandemonium turn is still outstanding.

[Arryn]

We're taking advantage of Zen's reduction to the ranks. He's no longer a pretender, so he can't *****-slap us with the almight Hand of the Moderator spell. And sweet ol' Gandalf is too much of a teddy bear to growl at us for being naughty. heehee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

One Last thing back on the Nuke topic though .
Some things we normal mortals will never know .

So perhaps Israel got their first nuke like you told but Israel was almost always backed up by the USA and Israels secret service , the mossad is extremely good too .
So they say perhaps they got their nuke like you told but probably at least shortly after they got lots of new , better nukes or at least the ICBM's for that from the USA .

Israel was always amazingly inventive when getting new weapons in the past time though . They got the best from France/Soviet Union/Usa etc. etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
They have probably the second best army of the world now . Only the Usa has a better army .


Another thing where i am quite interested but where it is hard to impossible to get good answers is how effective Stealth technology really is . The "sucky" europeans now just developed finally the eurofighter while you develop your F-22 Raptor who has stealth abilities but is an adequate all role fighter too unlike e.g. the F-117 .
So if only half of what your PR's say/claim there the F-22 is probably 20-30 years ahead of the eurofighter and every other fighter that exists at the moment in the world .

[Zen]

I never cared about going wildly OT on OT things. Actually considering that every topic veers so wildly off course it's not really that much of a deal.

Talking about Nazi's and Hitler could certainly go in a much worse direction (and has). But I might just ***** slap you Arryn, just for old times sake! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Boron]

deccan said:
You've really hijacked Zen's "I'm back" thread, Boron, and your Pandemonium turn is still outstanding.


I know i plan to do this turn tomorrow morning when i am "mental newer" . It is 7 a.m. now i didn't intend to stay up so long but especially today the forum discussion was so interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Zen]

Boron said:
Another thing where i am quite interested but where it is hard to impossible to get good answers is how effective Stealth technology really is . The "sucky" europeans now just developed finally the eurofighter while you develop your F-22 Raptor who has stealth abilities but is an adequate all role fighter too unlike e.g. the F-117 .
So if only half of what your PR's say/claim there the F-22 is probably 20-30 years ahead of the eurofighter and every other fighter that exists at the moment in the world .



Ah, the F-22 Raptor is definitive of it's generation of Stealth Class combat aircraft. Unfortunately it costs more than you will make in 3 generations, not including it's armaments or navigation systems. I doubt there is or will be another national aircraft that will compare to it and it's subsequent Versions for another 10 years.

Though considering the outlandish contracts given to military contractors at this point (due to federal funding) by the US Government you'd be hard pressed to find another nation with that kind of budget.

[Stormbinder]

Boron said:
Wow thanks Stormbinder and Arryn .
Your mentioned Combat Mission : Barbarossa looks really awesome even better than steel panthers .

They are up to Combat Mission 3 now .
Do you own all parts of that series or are the newer ones realtime and less accurate and because of that not as good as your mentioned Combat Mission : Barbarossa ?



Aye, both games are very good. If I would have to choose I would have chosen CM, partly because ot its amazing level of autenticity. It is as close as you can get to commanding real sqard, company, batalion or even division of any nation in World War 2 battle using today's technology. But both games are great and both play very differently, so it is the matter of personal choice. One is more tactical and authentic, another is more strategical. Pick your poison or play both. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Answering your question - yes, I owe both CM1 and CM2 games and AK expansion. I also used to have huge collenction of CM scenarios and operations (compaigns) for both CM games.

The CM3 will be in the development for a very long time, so don't hold your breath for it. Battlefront said that they have pushed the current CM engine as far as they can (which is pretty much true, there is not much more you can do to enhance the game). So they are going to do completely new and fully 3D engine, to push CM seria to the next level. Since they are building everything from scratch, it'll be quite a while before we will see CM3. But if they are going to implement 1/2 of the features they say they are going to put into it, I am going ro buy 10 copies of the game for myself and my friends and relatives. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif






Happy that you both mentioned HoI too .
My main gripe with HoI is that once you have teched out everything you have not much to do .

How do you like Victoria Stormbinder ? They will include parts in HoI 2 . I personally liked victoria expect for the daily revolution checks which made warmongering what i loved most too painful for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif



I liked some ideas implemented in Victoria, but overall I din't like the game too much. EU2 IMO was so much better. But than again I think EU2 was a masterpiece, despite rather lacking AI and several other drawbacks.

[Arryn]

Boron said:
So they say perhaps they got their nuke like you told but probably at least shortly after they got lots of new , better nukes or at least the ICBM's for that from the USA .

The US does not give nuclear technology to Israel. (Which is one reason why Israel spies on the US.) But if you want to continue believing in fantasies, Boron, without bothering to check out the facts, you're welcome to do so. Just, please, don't waste our time with it. It's getting very old and tiresome.


Boron said:
Israel was always amazingly inventive when getting new weapons in the past time though . They got the best from France/Soviet Union/Usa etc. etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Israel has never used Soviet-made weapons (except what they might capture on the battlefield from the Arabs for later study). You really do need to do a better job of studying history.


Boron said:
They have probably the second best army of the world now . Only the Usa has a better army .

The UK would dispute that, and with good reason.


Boron said:
So if only half of what your PR's say/claim there the F-22 is probably 20-30 years ahead of the eurofighter and every other fighter that exists at the moment in the world .

No comment. If I told you I'd then have to fly to Germany, hunt you down, and kill you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Arryn]

Zen said:
But I might just ***** slap you Arryn, just for old times sake! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

He loves me! I knew it. How sweet. You're such a dear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Arryn]

Stormbinder said:
I liked some ideas implemented in Victoria, but overall I din't like the game too much. EU2 IMO was so much better. But than again I think EU2 was a masterpiece, despite rather lacking AI and several other drawbacks.

Ditto.

[Stormbinder]

Arryn said:
We're taking advantage of Zen's reduction to the ranks. He's no longer a pretender, so he can't *****-slap us with the almight Hand of the Moderator spell. And sweet ol' Gandalf is too much of a teddy bear to growl at us for being naughty. heehee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif




I think I would welcome Zen much more if he would knock off his "cute" little IRC script, which kicks me from Dom2 channel every time he decides to drop in. He put it into effect shortly after Norfleet's cheating was exposed and Norfleet was forced to quit.


Since Zen promptly ignored all my Messages that I've send to him asking to stop kicking me from the channel, as well as those from other players, including channel moderator, asking him to stop it, I assumed he actually enjoys doing so just because he can. /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif


This being the case it is not surprising that I find historical WW2 subject as well as hardcore strategy games subject that was being discussed here much more intersting than the subject of Zen's return... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Stormbinder]

Arryn said:

Stormbinder said:
I liked some ideas implemented in Victoria, but overall I din't like the game too much. EU2 IMO was so much better. But than again I think EU2 was a masterpiece, despite rather lacking AI and several other drawbacks.

Ditto.



Heh, I told you we are in agreement quite often Arryn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Arryn]

Stormbinder said:
Heh, I told you we are in agreement quite often Arryn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As long as the subject isn't Dom 2 ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Boron said:
Israel was always amazingly inventive when getting new weapons in the past time though . They got the best from France/Soviet Union/Usa etc. etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Israel has never used Soviet-made weapons (except what they might capture on the battlefield from the Arabs for later study). You really do need to do a better job of studying history.



Well in a book which i have they write that knowledge Israel had about soviet tanks + new developments thanks to the mossad that this flew into the Design of the Merkava I tank as well .
So knowing how well the Mossad works why shouldn't i believe this then when i read it in a book about tanks ?
Furthermore as you said they used captured soviet tanks from the Arabs very inventive for e.g. their APC Achzarit .


With your further comments i guess you are just kidding or do you really work for the american government in a position with insight i as an european can never get ?

[Stormbinder]

Arryn said:

Stormbinder said:
Heh, I told you we are in agreement quite often Arryn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

As long as the subject isn't Dom 2 ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Zen]

Stormbinder said:
I think I would welcome Zen much more if he would knock off his "cute" little IRC script, which kicks me from Dom2 channel every time he decides to drop in. He put it into effect shortly after Norfleet's cheating was exposed and Norfleet was forced to quit.

Actually it was there much previous to that. I simply wasn't there very often because I didn't need it.


Since Zen promptly ignored all my Messages that I've send to him asking to stop kicking me from the channel, as well as those from other players, including channel moderator, asking him to stop it, I assumed he actually enjoys doing so just because he can. /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif

No, I ignored all your Messages because you got placed in the special place that is /ignore where people who pester you relentlessly for no reason other than to spell badly and foam at the mouth go. The others expressed to me their desire for you to stop pestering them and I told them that you, of course, would whine at them regardless of what I did, so we came to a mutual understanding that I could care less if you are kicked while I am there. Consequences for your actions, even on the Internet, yah?


This being the case it is not surprising that I find historical WW2 subject as well as hardcore strategy games subject that was being discussed here much more intersting than the subject of Zen's return... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Considering how misinformed you are about most of it, I'm not surprised you are interested in talking about it and I have no problem with it as I said earlier, Topics always veer wildly off course and I would not expect this to be any less. Though I wish Arryn would not bait Boron so much, she should know that some people are just as opinionated as she is (Hah!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Well in a book which i have they write that knowledge Israel had about soviet tanks + new developments thanks to the mossad that this flew into the Design of the Merkava I tank as well .

Studying a Russian weapon (on testing grounds, or how the enemy has employed it) is not the same thing as using it operationally as a part of one's own equipment. You are using the knowledge gained from the weapon, not the weapon itself.


Boron said:
So knowing how well the Mossad works why shouldn't i believe this then when i read it in a book about tanks ?

No offense, but you seem to have trouble understanding what you read/see, in interpretation thereof, and/or in coming to conclusions. I don't think it's an issue of your being German, either, because I don't see this problem with other Germans I correspond with.


Boron said:
Furthermore as you said they used captured soviet tanks from the Arabs

As I said above, they studied them, not employed them. I think you are mistranslating the word "used" in the context being discussed.



Boron said:
With your further comments i guess you are just kidding or do you really work for the american government in a position with insight i as an european can never get ?

I was joking.

However, I did serve decades ago in the US Army (in an armored unit), and I stay current with things that are of interest to me, insofar as I can as a civilian. I am also active politically, and I voraciously read history and tech books (as well as SF/fantasy) and I'm pretty skilled at information research (which I first learned to do for science fair projects in high school, then later in college when I was majoring in physics). You'd be amazed at what you can learn on your own when you put your mind to it. The hard data on nukes I pulled from the web in a few seconds while I was replying to you. The rest was from my memory.

[Cainehill]

Boron said:
With your further comments i guess you are just kidding or do you really work for the american government in a position with insight i as an european can never get ?



Boron, it seems that anyone who doesn't take Tom Clancy and JR Tolkien as reputable sources for real world information have an insight that you'll never have.

Rather like the way you've been sharing your "insights" on game balance, when you just posted that you'd never gotten to the end game before.

I guess you've been using the 1-900-psychic friends network to know how end game balance works out, eh?

[Arryn]

Zen said:
Though I wish Arryn would not bait Boron so much

If you consider that "baiting", I cringe to think what you'd say if I actually went out of my way to deliberately bait someone. hmmm ...



Zen said:
she should know that some people are just as opinionated as she is (Hah!) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I do. Welcome back. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif {that's touche, if you're scoring}

[Zen]

Arryn said:
However, I did serve decades ago in the US Army (in an armored unit), and I stay current with things that are of interest to me, insofar as I can as a civilian. I am also active politically, and I voraciously read history and tech books (as well as SF/fantasy) and I'm pretty skilled at information research (which I first learned to do for science fair projects in high school, then later in college when I was majoring in physics). You'd be amazed at what you can learn on your own when you put your mind to it. The hard data on nukes I pulled from the web in a few seconds while I was replying to you. The rest was from my memory.

Most of the information you can find about operational limits and theoretical analysis of nuclear payload, distance, and detonation time along with hypothetical responses can be found all across the 'net. It's major currency for conspiritorial nuts.

[Zen]

Arryn said:
If you consider that "baiting", I cringe to think what you'd say if I actually went out of my way to deliberately bait someone. hmmm ...



Well as the past indicates, Hitler + Boron = Hate. And starting a conversation doing anything other than agreeing with his (invalid, or suppositional) opinion will provoke a reaction. From what we know of Boron this reaction will often be less than reasoned and thus, by your unescapable need of logical nature, reply to him correcting. And then, it continues and totally veers off course, because most of the time when presented with a logical arguement, most escape to changing the subject or focusing on minor or out of context aspects. YES?!

And of course, I think your hair is pretty.

[Arryn]

The only conspiracies (besides the GOP, which is one big conspiracy masquerading as a political party) that I believe in are that of the JFK assassination, and that various governments know more about UFOs than they are letting on. But I prefer not to speculate on just what the info that's being hidden is.

I don't believe in the Illuminati, or in secret Vatican cabals (a la Prince of Darkness and other such movies), or in some nether plot by game publishers to deny us ever seeing a decent successor to MOO2/FO2/XCOM2.

[Arryn]

Zen said:
Well as the past indicates, Hitler + Boron = Hate. And starting a conversation doing anything other than agreeing with his (invalid, or suppositional) opinion will provoke a reaction. From what we know of Boron this reaction will often be less than reasoned and thus, by your unescapable need of logical nature, reply to him correcting. And then, it continues and totally veers off course, because most of the time when presented with a logical arguement, most escape to changing the subject or focusing on minor or out of context aspects. YES?!

How accurate! Bravo! You even pegged my Pavlovian need to react to illogic. Jolly well done, chap!


Zen said:
And of course, I think your hair is pretty.

Flattery works. Did you take a sensitivity course during your brief hiatus? I like this "new" you much better ...

[Cainehill]

Arryn said:
I don't believe [...] in some nether plot by game publishers to deny us ever seeing a decent successor to MOO2/FO2/XCOM2.



You don't? How else can you explain it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Cainehill]

Hey Zen, welcome back - I hate it when Arryn and I are the only honest (ie blunt) highly opinionated people who use logic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Maybe now you're not busy moderating, you'll have more of a chance to play. I'd love to show how much I've improved from my Turmoil 3, Luck 3 days. (It's _so_ much better with Turmoil 2, Luck 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

[Demosthenes]

I'm pleased you're back Zen.

[liga]

Welcome back Zen!!!

Thanks to the one that cast "Ritual of Ribirth" ... how many death gemes ?

One of the biggest Hero in the Dom2 all of fame is now back in the world! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

So now I can start to bother again you with my perpetual request about you BSQR ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

good play ... that's really a good beginning for a raining day of work!

Liga

[Stormbinder]

Zen said:

Stormbinder said:

Since Zen promptly ignored all my Messages that I've send to him asking to stop kicking me from the channel, as well as those from other players, including channel moderator, asking him to stop it, I assumed he actually enjoys doing so just because he can. /threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif

No, I ignored all your Messages because you got placed in the special place that is /ignore where people who pester you relentlessly for no reason <skiped>



For the sake of keeping this discusion civil and polite, I am skiping the rest of your message with all its insults.


You said that you have not seen my Messages because they were put on "ignore". All right, let's assume that it was the case here. Now you have seen this message. So I ask you to remove your script and stop baning me from the channel, that you almost never visit yourself these days. I am currently in several Dom2 games with most other Dom2 channel regulars, and we meet on IRC to talk and discuss our trades and diplomacy daily. You, on the other hand, are almost never there.

But even if you are going to start visiting and spending there most of your time, as you used to do before you "retired" and put me on "ban" list as your parting gift, it does not matter, since I am there to talk with my in-game friends and partners, that's all. For good or for bad it is the only active Dom2 channel around that is visited by this forum's regulars at this moment, and you know it.



So, I am going to say this here in public: Zen, I have no intentions of speaking to you in Dom2 IRC channel ever again.

Here, I've said that. Therefore there are no possible reasons for you to keep kicking me from the channel every time you log in. Unless of course you are recieving a pervent pleasure from abusing whatever little power you may have over other people around you, and causing them grief simply because you can.



So will you please deactivate your IRC script? You can even put me on your "ignore list" if you like, however that would not be nessesery since as I said I have no intention or interest of speaking to you whatsoever.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

Boron said:
Furthermore as you said they used captured soviet tanks from the Arabs

As I said above, they studied them, not employed them. I think you are mistranslating the word "used" in the context being discussed.




Well you showed simply that you either didn't read my full post or made the wrong quoting with purpose .

The whole sentence was

Furthermore as you said they used captured soviet tanks from the Arabs very inventive for e.g. their APC Achzarit .



So a few words further in the sentence i gave you the PRACTICAL example how they used them .

And what about the Tiran 4/5 tanks ? They were captured T54/55 which Israel used a long time first without much modifications , later with new turrets / armor improvements and now because they became obsolete they removed the turret and built their APC Achzarit out of them . This is very inventive as i wrote and you say they didn't employ them .

[Boron]

Zen said:

Boron said:
Another thing where i am quite interested but where it is hard to impossible to get good answers is how effective Stealth technology really is . The "sucky" europeans now just developed finally the eurofighter while you develop your F-22 Raptor who has stealth abilities but is an adequate all role fighter too unlike e.g. the F-117 .
So if only half of what your PR's say/claim there the F-22 is probably 20-30 years ahead of the eurofighter and every other fighter that exists at the moment in the world .



Ah, the F-22 Raptor is definitive of it's generation of Stealth Class combat aircraft. Unfortunately it costs more than you will make in 3 generations, not including it's armaments or navigation systems. I doubt there is or will be another national aircraft that will compare to it and it's subsequent Versions for another 10 years.

Though considering the outlandish contracts given to military contractors at this point (due to federal funding) by the US Government you'd be hard pressed to find another nation with that kind of budget.


Unfortunately the info at www.af.mil (http://www.af.mil) which is the official government site Afaik is very small .
Basically thats all :

Prior to its selection as winner of what was then known as the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) competition, the F/A-22 team conducted a 54-month demonstration/ validation (dem/val) program. The effort involved the design, construction and flight testing of two YF-22 prototype aircraft. Two prototype engines, the Pratt & Whitney YF119 and General Electric YF120, also were developed and tested during the program. The dem/val program was completed in December 1990.

Much of that work was performed at Boeing in Seattle, Lockheed (now known as Lockheed Martin) facilities in Burbank, Calif., and at General Dynamics' Fort Worth, Texas, facilities (now known as Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems). The prototypes were assembled in Lockheed's Palmdale, Calif., facility and made their maiden flight from there. Since that time Lockheed's program management and aircraft assembly operations have moved to Marietta, Ga., for the EMD and production phases.

A $9.55 billion contract for Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) of the F/A-22 was awarded to the industry team of Boeing and Lockheed Martin in August 1991. Contract changes since then have elevated the contract value to approximately $11 billion. Under terms of the contract, the F/A-22 team will complete the design of the aircraft, produce production tooling for the program, and build and test nine flightworthy and two ground-test aircraft.

In February 1995, the Air Force customer approved the final design of the F/A-22 air vehicle and confirmed that the program was ready to proceed to fabrication and assembly. The Air Force plans to procure 339 F/A-22s, and production is scheduled to run through 2013.




A press release from 5/17/2004 :

The cost (for the F/A-22) is coming down,” he said. “In fact, a year ago Dr. Marvin R. Sambur (assistant secretary of the Air Force for acquisition) was able to negotiate 21 planes for the price of 20.”

Secretary Roche said that Raptors now cost less than $150 million per copy. The price tag should come down even further as the program continues to stabilize, he said.




From www.globalsecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org) :

In mid-2002 the Defense Department was assessing the F-22 program as part of a review directed by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that called for an option to reduce the quantity of program to 180 from 295. That's less than one-fourth the initial plan for 750 planes. As of 2002, DOD had spent $26 billion of the $69 billion planned for the F-22 program. All four defense committees in Congress had approved the request for $4.6 billion in fiscal 2003 to buy 23 aircraft; 10 were being purchased in FY2002.

Air Force officials announced 07 November 2002 a potential cost overrun of up to $690 million in the engineering, manufacturing and development phase of the F/A-22 program. The potential overrun appeared to be related to achieving cost and schedule in the developmental phase of the program, officials said. It is not related to its technology or performance. The aircraft remains on schedule for first aircraft delivery in 2004 and initial operational capability in 2005 as planned. The projected overrun is about 3.3 percent of the program's $20 billion development phase and about 1 percent of the program's $69.7 billion estimated total pricetag. The Pentagon approved an $876 million restructure to finance the extended development effort. The restructure sliced $763 million from the procurement profile, cutting 49 airframes from years 2004 to 2009. This decision brought the procurement profile from 325 to 276 through FY-09.




<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
DOD's Projected Unit
Prices Before and After Restructuring
Production
--------------------------
Low-rate Full-rate
------------ ------------
Units Unit Units Unit
Estimates cost cost
-------------------------- ---- ------ ---- ------
Before restructuring 76 $142.6 362 $102.8
Restructured without 70 $200.3 368 $128.2
initiatives
Restructured with 70 $200.8 368 $ 92.4
initiatives
------------------------------------------------------

</pre><hr />
It is costy but don't you think it is worth it ?
The only Fighter which could perhaps beat a F-22 Raptor would have been the Mig 1.44 but unless they get financial aid from e.g. China they won't probably develop it further .

And what is your opinion about the Joint Strike Fighter ?

[Boron]

Battlefront , the publisher of your mentioned combat mission series has a game called Strategic command too and now develops a sucessor .
Did you play this game too Stormbinder or anyone else ?

[tinkthank]

Hey, Zen, welcome back!!
Great to have you back.
Sorry your thread got... waylaid. But since it already is....


Cainehill said:

Hey Zen, welcome back - I hate it when Arryn and I are the only honest (ie blunt) highly opinionated people who use logic. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif




I normally don't mind that fact that I am ignored, but at least grant me opinionatedness and logic!

[Arryn]

Boron said:
And what about the Tiran 4/5 tanks ? They were captured T54/55 which Israel used a long time first without much modifications , later with new turrets / armor improvements and now because they became obsolete they removed the turret and built their APC Achzarit out of them . This is very inventive as i wrote and you say they didn't employ them .

My apology. I was wrong about that. I was unaware of the Israeli Tiran series tanks, as they were all withdrawn from service by Israel before I served in the US Army. (There was Tiran 6, also, which was a captured T62. Israel never had more than 100 of these.)

The Achzarit has been so heavily modified/rebuilt that it hardly counts. About the only thing that's original is the base hull and road wheels. The suspension, engine, controls, weapons, and pretty much everything else has been changed. The only thing the Israelis have done by re-using the base chassis is save themselves the cost/effort of casting a new hull. Still, technically you are correct in that they did use them since rather than casting a new hull for a new APC they reused captured hulls.

[Arryn]

Boron said:
Battlefront , the publisher of your mentioned combat mission series has a game called Strategic command too and now develops a sucessor .
Did you play this game too Stormbinder or anyone else ?

I have. It's a simplistic beer&amp;pretzels clone of an AH Third Reich-style game. Play HoI instead.

[Arryn]

tinkthank said:
I normally don't mind that fact that I am ignored, but at least grant me opinionatedness and logic!

No. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[archaeolept]

Strategic Command is more like the classic A-H pretzel wargame, "Hitler's War". I found it pretty enjoyable, precisely because it wasn't insane like HoI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Boron]

archaeolept said:
Strategic Command is more like the classic A-H pretzel wargame, "Hitler's War". I found it pretty enjoyable, precisely because it wasn't insane like HoI http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif



I downloaded the demo . Looks like a panzer general with resources .
Strategic command 2 maybe nice , exactly in between the too simple axis&amp;allies and between Hoi/Hoi 2 .


I downloaded the demo to Combat mission AK really nice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Now downloading the Barbarossa demo with the slight hope that there a Tiger or panther or JS tank is included http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Cainehill]

tinkthank said:
I normally don't mind that fact that I am ignored, but at least grant me opinionatedness and logic!



Okay, but .... Who are you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Vicious Love]

This is a tad belated, but welcome back. Erm, w00t

[Zen]

Boron said:
It is costy but don't you think it is worth it ?

That doesn't include the actual costs, which are bloated to about 150-200% of that number due to the longstanding contracts with Lockheed/Boeing. For maintaining world superiority in aircraft? It's worth it IMO, but having pilots who cannot get enough flight time to maintain their flight status because of the decripitude of Naval and AFC aircraft is more concerning to me as a 'worth' factor.


The only Fighter which could perhaps beat a F-22 Raptor would have been the Mig 1.44 but unless they get financial aid from e.g. China they won't probably develop it further .

I highly doubt it, even during the engineering phase of the Mig 1.44 it had too many stress fractures in it's engines during upper G's which while not indicitive of anything (these things can be worked out) it put the publicity setbacks show that that particular development team doesn't have the funding/talent/history to produce an aircraft of the same caliber. Though wars are not won by high tech aircraft alone. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


And what is your opinion about the Joint Strike Fighter ?



Functional, bugetable, maintainable and for it's purpose, everything it should be.

[Stormbinder]

Boron said:
Battlefront , the publisher of your mentioned combat mission series has a game called Strategic command too and now develops a sucessor .
Did you play this game too Stormbinder or anyone else ?



Nope, I didn't Boron. I've read reviews of it though, and lurked on thier forums a little bit when it came out. From what I've heard and read it seem to be a decent game but it didn't strike me as something that I have to buy.

And btw Battlefront is just a publisher for the Strategic Command, the guy who had developed it (and who is developing SC2) had nothing to do with Comabat Missions seria.

[Boron]

Who is the developer from Combat Mission series ?
And do you know if there is any difference between the german Version and the us Version ( censorship ? ) .
Strangely in germany CDV sells it but there is no info who the developer of Combat mission is on their homepage .


I am intending to buy first combat mission 2 because it is lowprice already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
I don't know if i should buy combat mission 1 but i will buy combat mission 3 sooner or later too .
Probably combat mission 2 fits my taste most though because i like the russian + german tanks most http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Stormbinder]

Boron said:
Who is the developer from Combat Mission series ?
And do you know if there is any difference between the german Version and the us Version ( censorship ? ) .
Strangely in germany CDV sells it but there is no info who the developer of Combat mission is on their homepage .


I am intending to buy first combat mission 2 because it is lowprice already http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
I don't know if i should buy combat mission 1 but i will buy combat mission 3 sooner or later too .
Probably combat mission 2 fits my taste most though because i like the russian + german tanks most http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



Yes, I think there is. Something to do with Nazi symbolic being illigal in Germany. IIRC I've heard something along these lines on the Battlefront's forums, but I don't remember any details.

As to which game to buy - I would suggest buying just buying CM2 and it's expansion - African Korps, and not spending your time and money on CM1, at least for now. Don't get me wrong, CM1 was a great game, but CM2 is very similar in terms of gameplay and have nothing but hundreds of sbtle and not so subtle improvements over CM1. A lot of scenarios from CM1 were adopted for CM2 as well by fans. With AK expansion it also gives you access to wide range of nations in addition to russians and germans in "Barabarossa to Berlin".

Have fun!


P.S. And yes, german and russian tanks were undoubtfully the best in WW2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Thnx again Stormbinder .
So Afrika Corps is an expansion only ?
On amazon.de ( the german amazon ) it is sold for 45 € as Combat Mission 3 AK while combat mission 2 is sold for ~10€ .

One other question : In the combat mission demos from battlefield.com there is no blood to see anywhere but only AK demo is in german . So is this the same with the Us Version too or is blood perhaps in the european Version deactivated too ?

[Stormbinder]

Boron said:
Thnx again Stormbinder .
So Afrika Corps is an expansion only ?
On amazon.de ( the german amazon ) it is sold for 45 &amp;#8364; as Combat Mission 3 AK while combat mission 2 is sold for ~10&amp;#8364; .

One other question : In the combat mission demos from battlefield.com there is no blood to see anywhere but only AK demo is in german . So is this the same with the Us Version too or is blood perhaps in the european Version deactivated too ?



Yes, it is not CM3, just an expansion. But it is good one. Sand storms in the desert, dust clouds raised by tanks obscuring visibility, multy barreled tanks, a lot of new nations with all their equipment and units, etc. But it is not CM3, which as I said will be in development for a long time.


Frankly I have no idia about blood in demo vs real Version. Never payed much attention to it in CM. But I don't think there is much blood in this game. Considering the small size of the units on the standart game resolution, what would you want to see? Few red pixels over white background as indicator of mortally wounded soldier dying in the frozen steppes of Mother Russia? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It is not a 1st person shooter after all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But if you are looking for realism I can tell you that each nation soldiers shoots orders and commucate with each other in native language during the battle. And it can actually help you quite a bit if you understand the nation's language, since there is a lot of information about your units actions and attitude that can be gained from listening to what they shoot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Not to mention it adds a lot of atmosphere to the game.

I even picked up few german and french words that I didn't know before from listening to this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

Cool the decision which Version to buy is not longer necessary http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
They offer it now in a special edition with all 3 Combat mission games included and for "only" 30€ while AK alone is still sold for 40€ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
Hopefully they send it soon . That waiting will kill me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Arryn]

So, Zen, you decided to be a moderator again after all. My condolences, er, congratulations.

[Zen]

No, I'm not doing much of the moderating bidnezz. But I will be doing much of the "FAQ"ing bidnezz and trying to catch the Community Support back up to the Outrageous Depth of the game.

My time is not going to be spent moderating or watching or curbing potential train wreaks. But rather doing the things that everyone always asks me for/about http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Arryn]

Are you going to lock the info sticky threads (and create separate reply-to threads) as you once had (which was a cleaner system than at present), or are you leaving the stickies as is?

[Zen]

If you'd like I could lock and redirect. Only issue of that is, what happened with the forum upgrade. Not that I think it was a bad upgrade, in the least, it did kill all the links and created a massive void of information.

I prefer the lock and reply thread mode and it's alot easier to maintain and keep up to date. It's actually something I'd like people here to venture an opinion on. Now that the threads are sortable, I would like to attract alot of the prodigal children of Dom2, as well as create the newbie friendly enviroment (again).

[Arryn]

Well, for your first opinion, I like the stickies the way you had them before your hiatus: locked and with a prominent link in the top post pointing to a dedicated reply-to/comment thread.

OTOH, I'm presently maintaining the AAR sticky, which you'd have to take over from me, if you don't mind doing so. Ditto Liga's mod sticky.

[Zen]

The Snazzy thing is if I lock the Thread you *should* still be able to edit the original content of the post. So if I delete superflous Posts and lock the Thread, and you create the respond thread, you will still be able to edit your post in order to keep it up to date.

What lovely elbows you have M'dear!

[Arryn]

Cool. I/we can have cake and eat it too! I can hardly wait. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif