The Ark can kill your pretender?

[Vicious Love]

Well, it can. Your sacred troops are immune, but your pretender can be killed, blinded, or diseased, just like any other atheist.

Does anyone else find this highly suspect? I can't really see much of a game balance rationale, and I definitely can't see any thematic reason. What giveth?

[archaeolept]

not a rationale, but i figure immunity is conferred by the "sacred" flag, which one's pretender doesn't have. Same reason he's not blessed w/ his own blessing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

I never used the arc before what does he require to forge ?

There might be a big use for especially niefelheim forging and using it . They could use some niefel jarl scs + a few niefel gigants to prevent rout and voila i think it would be devastating http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Boron]

archaeolept said:
not a rationale, but i figure immunity is conferred by the "sacred" flag, which one's pretender doesn't have. Same reason he's not blessed w/ his own blessing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Does the armor that makes one sacred work on pretender ?
And does it save you from the Arc effect if you use it on e.g. Ice devils ?

[archaeolept]

shroud of the battle saint doesn't work on pretenders, but it does confer sacred status on anyone else.

[tinkthank]

archaeolept said:
shroud of the battle saint doesn't work on pretenders, but it does confer sacred status on anyone else.



Not to nitpick, but that's not correct -- the shroud blesses you, it wont make you sacred, and your butt will still get fried by the Ark when you are wearing it.

[archaeolept]

oh no way

that's no nitpick - i was flat out wrong

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

[Arryn]

BTW, Boron's question regarding how you can get the Ark has not been answered ...

[Zen]

The MIQR 3.1 states it a 4F4A.

For you zealots out there find it here www.techno-mage.com/~zen/MIpdfv3.1.xls (http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/MIpdfv3.1.xls) in Excel format.

[Arryn]

Zen said:
For you zealots out there find it here www.techno-mage.com/~zen/MIpdfv3.1.xls (http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/MIpdfv3.1.xls) in Excel format.

When you make it into a PDF, please send me a copy so I can update what I have on my site (which is v3.0). BTW, the Version on Shrapnel's site is v2.5, which is now six revisions behind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[Zen]

I can't make it into a PDF, I don't have the software to do so with the proper resolution. Hence why all the QR's are not released to the public along with a few other issues, but that is the main one for the first 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.

[Arryn]

I sure wish you'd said something earlier! Liga can make it into a PDF (and I'm sure she'd be more than happy to), and I have a copy of Acrobat 5 somewhere I can install on my machine if for some reason Liga cannot do it.

[Zen]

It requires Adobe Professional 6.0 (or higher) or some other program (Professional is the one I am familiar with and that Bruce uses as well). I have used other PDF rippers, but it produced some pretty ugly PDF's. Also there is an issue with the PDF moving things around when you rip it so it's a pain. Don't worry about it, I'm sure it will be done in a reasonable length of time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Arryn]

I *will* worry about it. Hmmph! I'll send a PM to Liga and ask her what she's got.

One of these days, you stubborn sod, you'll learn to accept some help ...

[lebarjack]

Here can you find all you need to convert your file in the <troll>ugly</troll> MS office format to an awesome pdf : openoffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org)

And it's free, and I mean libre software http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Arralen]

I did a PDF using OpenOffice.Org 1.11 .
Looks quite ok.

You may get it here:
(Totally forgot we can upload files now ...)

[Arryn]

lebarjack said:
Here can you find all you need to convert your file in the <troll>ugly</troll> MS office format to an awesome pdf : openoffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org)

That's okay, I converted the .xls file to PDF using Acrobat Pro 6, since the Adobe tools are what most people are best acquainted with. (I do have OpenOffice, but I don't use it since I also have M$ Office and OO's support for group editing/notation isn't as good as that found in M$ bloatware.)

EDIT: now all I need is for Zen to send me (or make available for d/l) his other raw documents so that I can post them as PDFs on my website for everyone's download pleasure.

[Cainehill]

Arryn said:
BTW, Boron's question regarding how you can get the Ark has not been answered ...



Boron could try reading the manual, not too much to ask of such an "expert" on the game's balance and design.

[Vicious Love]

Quick addendum, anyone have any idea whether any/all of the Ark's effects are resisted by MR?

My initial WTF still stands, by the way. There is something fundamentally wonky about Jesus sizzling when doused with holy water.

[Arryn]

Vicious Love said:
There is something fundamentally wonky about Jesus sizzling when doused with holy water.

What's wonky is your grossly-flawed analogy. Holy water damages the unholy. It has no adverse effect upon those who are not supernaturally evil.

[Cainehill]

There's still something wrong with the ark of god's power being okay with god's priests, but blinding and diseasing god.

Yes, the reason this happens because of game mechanics makes sense - pretender isn't sacred, ark burns all that is not properly sacred. But it's still bogus, and really ought to be changed. Actually, IIRC, the ark _also_ nails God's Prophet, if the prophet didn't start out sacred?

[Arryn]

Cainehill said:
There's still something wrong with the ark of god's power being okay with god's priests, but blinding and diseasing god.

Indeed. It's wacked. Badly.


Cainehill said:
Actually, IIRC, the ark _also_ nails God's Prophet, if the prophet didn't start out sacred?

Correct. That is *so* not right ...

[Alneyan]

Arryn said:
Holy water damages the unholy. It has no adverse effect upon those who are not supernaturally evil.



*Toys with the notion of pouring holy water on Arryn* A hunch about the good involved in becoming Empress of the World, and in various tortures. Actually attempting to cast that handy "Holy Water from afar" spell might not be such a good idea though, especially if the spell happens to reveal the identity of the caster.

Thus there is only one way of checking both the properties of the spell and Arryn's nature. *Casts the "Holy Water from afar" spell, and gets ready to run like the winds should something go awry*

I think, but may be wrong, that the Ark's effects are based on MR. At least, it is what I recall having read somewhere on the forums. I will be checking, provided my odds of survival are anything better than a few heartbeats.

[Cainehill]

Arryn said:
Holy water damages the unholy. It has no adverse effect upon those who are not supernaturally evil.



Um, holy water burns nuns. Well, boiling holy water does. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Arryn]

Alneyan said:
Thus there is only one way of checking both the properties of the spell and Arryn's nature. *Casts the "Holy Water from afar" spell, and gets ready to run like the winds should something go awry*

AAEEEII!!! I'm melting, I'm melt ... oh, wait. I'm wet. Silly me, forgot to come in out of the rain. {shakes fist in air and mutters curses at lousy weather report} {meanwhile, far overhead, the pilot of a firefighting tanker plane goes "Oops! Sure hope no one caught that on video, or my *** is toast."}

[Alneyan]

That "Slightly more stealthy than a swarm of drunken elephants" upgrade for this plane was certainly worth its grain of salt after all; at least it managed to escape and was only spotted by half the country. Hindsight seems to tell removing most of its cargo space was a poor idea though; somehow, a single small vial of second-hand holy water was not enough.

And then the plane had an unfortunate accident and crashed, while the pilot is nowhere to be found. How inconvenient. I have not even been able to bring him back to my modest dwelling; surely he should have been a permanent guest of the house, and would have enjoyed the hand-made cell waiting for his arrival.

Well, at least it isn't as if I had blown up my cover. Arryn cannot possibly know what has truly happened, let alone pinpoint the responsible for this... erh... small happenstance. Hey! Why is that red button labelled "Now recording" blinking?

[Arryn]

Alneyan said:
Hey! Why is that red button labelled "Now recording" blinking?

Perhaps to distract you from the less-obvious five hidden cameras and Dolby 6.1 surround-sound recording mics nestled in the potted plants ...

The knock you hear at the door is that of the courier delivering the blackmail terms. The low hissing sound you hear is that of a natural gas "leak" that will be found to be the cause of an unfortunate accidental explosion should said courier fail to return. The tiny red dot on your chest is ... insurance lest you contrive something truly ingenious to escape from the other contingencies.

[Alneyan]

I must say I am honoured by all the attention you are giving to someone as minor as myself. I am humbled by your cleverness; I had not expected you to deploy more than one backup scheme.

Being the living incarnation of courage et al, I will not be falling for your ploy. Instead, I will be gladly helping your schemes, and open the door for the courier to enter. What are the exact terms your minion wishes to deliver? We shall not call such pleasant conversations a "blackmail"; we are merely conducting a mutually profitable agreement, as, well, as friends are wont to do.

Oh, and should you wonder, it isn't sweat that you can see on my forehead. In fact, it is but a trick of the odd light in this place, which makes my head glitters. *Coughs*

[Arryn]

Alneyan said:
I must say I am honoured by all the attention you are giving to someone as minor as myself.

Don't be. I'm merely practicing to prevent getting rusty. Live targets are sometimes more intriguing than computer sims, although they often don't ... live up to their potential.


Alneyan said:
I am humbled by your cleverness;

Of course you are. You may bow and scape at any time. I'd suggest sooner, rather than later.


Alneyan said:
I had not expected you to deploy more than one backup scheme.

Obviously. Shortsightedness is why humans also are so short-lived.


Alneyan said:
Being the living incarnation of courage et al, I will not be falling for your ploy.

Too late for that, my dear.


Alneyan said:
What are the exact terms your minion wishes to deliver?

Unconditional surrender and worship, of course. Sacrifices are optional, but welcome.


Alneyan said:
we are merely conducting a mutually profitable agreement, as, well, as friends are wont to do.

Naturally. You agree to obey and I agree to not squash you like a bug. A most friendly arrangement. A "win-win". I gain a minion and you get to live, at least for a while.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Cainehill said:
There's still something wrong with the ark of god's power being okay with god's priests, but blinding and diseasing god.




Makes sense to me. Faith is what saves you. Pretender gods may instill faith in their followers, but do they share their followers's faith? Or, in other words, did Jaysus 'believe' in Jaysus - or Brian, in Brian? I don't think so: Pretenders are merely a bunch of ambitious egocentrists with oversized egos, and the Ark has been brought into the game to punish them for their misdeeds. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Alneyan]

Silly me; I have bodyguards to use after all. Fifty hired swords should have jumped to save my hide from these unwanted complications. Alas, I seem to recall something about "unpaid wages" due to having to save up for hiring that plane. I would have expected more lenience in such petty requests; so I haven't paid in one year, but I would have eventually done so.

So, a quick reality check:
* There are currently two known schemes to ensure a swift demise should I attempt something foolish. Nothing tells me there are not other similar threats, unbeknown to me.
* A courier has already been sent, and her abilities are a mystery. But even if she is not just a magically enlarged dragonfly, the other threats aforementioned are enough to... erh... convince me.
* Arryn herself may be waiting somewhere, for example right in my back. Never underestimate the power of a Teleport spell.
* Even the paper dictating the conditions of the surrender may carry a poison of some sort. I should tread carefully here. What is this odd fragrance I am smelling?

Thus I can conclude I have little choice. Where is the paper I have to sign? Hopefully, with such vague terms of "unconditional surrender" et al, you will not even have to add in invisible clauses. I might want to do so though... Did I speak that thought aloud? Oops.

[Vicious Love]

Not to diverge too sharply from the topic at hand(Something about elephants and waterplanes?), but it seems the Ark does NOT affect friendlu unholy troops. I happen to concur with this, thematically, but a good case can easily be made for the alternative.
Either way, thought that was something people might want to know, game mechanic-wise.

And it doesn't get much apter, than the Jesus analogy. Awww, yeah. Holy water purifies; it washes your sins/the devil out of you(Let's assume the two are interchangeable. Free will and original sin are no less self- and other- contradictory than anything else in the Good Book). If you['re more devil than man(Or woman, but the bible tends to kinda gloss over those), the process kills you.
As any good Christian'll tell you, the devil is any and all thoughts save "praise God". Ergo, all non-sacred troops have a bit o' ol' Scratch in them. The principle of Universal Christian Guilt dictates all sacred troops also possess some measure of sin, and are therefore just as damned to Hell as non-sacreds, but we shall assume, for the purpose of this thought experiment, that it is too miniscule a quantity of evil to visibly react to holy water, and requires a more rigorous form of testing, such as snake-handling or an inquisitorial pyre.
Wherein lies the crux(Our Father, pardon the pun) of the analogy: Degree of sanctity. After all, only truly wicked babies die in their sleep after merely being baptized, and only the possessed actually respond with epileptic seizures. Furthermore, only demons, vampires, and Muslims actually BURN, when exposed to the stuff. The aforementioned pyre, on the other hand, will burn the sin right out of anyone and anything. The process is the same, but intensities vary. Such is the Ark.

While I'm willing to grant that your pretender is more evangelist than saint, that hardly counts for anything in light of the fact that he wrote the Book. Honestly, a simple escape clause for divine atheists is all it would take.

[Vicious Love]

It's just come to my attention that members of the National Socialist party have been known to liquefy when in visual contact with the Ark. Has any effort been made to correlate this with the Oberfuhrer Hypothesis?

Methinks a conspiracy is at hand.

[Vicious Love]

This just in, juggernauts are every bit as susceptible to the ark as pretty much everything else. On the one hand, I respect the powerfully Christian notion of EVERYONE except the tiniest, most insignificant portion of the population being doomed to Hell.
On the other, methinks giant icons on wheels should be exempt from damnation. Unless that damn artifact has issues with idolatry, as well. That box just won't compromise.

Honestly, why aren't juggernauts sacred? Is there some sort of game balance issue I'm oblivious to? What's the worst that could happen, 150% speed tramplers with reinvigoration? Nasty, but not much nastier than an unmodified juggernaut. The defense boost is meaningless. And the defense bonus is meaningless. Only soulless and their ilk can't hit a juggernaut, and such cannon fodder can rarely penetrate protection 20?
Fire-9? Flaming fists that rarely miss targets of juggernaut size or above. If there is a size above juggernaut size. Add Blood-9, and I'd still rather have the thing trample.
Air? Only good against arbalests, lightning(Not worth it), and possibly flaming arrows. I mean, protection 20. Solid.Protection I suppose the astral MR boost would be the ideal blessing, but I still can't see how that would be overpowered.
Death? Worthwhile if it turned into some kind of Soulless Juggernaut when killed. That'd be sweet.
Nature? Worth it if only to see one of those things go berserk.

Thoughts?

[Taqwus]

Hmmm, I don't see a huge issue with sacred Juggernauts, nor with the Ark sparing its owning pretender,considering that both are holy enough to spread the owner's dominion just like the Ark.

(And, being basically large heavy icon platforms, they don't have minds, right? Mindless units should probably be non-berserkable if they aren't already.)

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Vicious Love said:
Honestly, why aren't juggernauts sacred?



I thought they were?

[archaeolept]

zen's SCQR 1.0 has them as sacred...

have they been changed?

[johan osterman]

Taqwus said:
... Mindless units should probably be non-berserkable if they aren't already.)



Well, Golems go berserk all the time, it is basically what being a Golem is all about.

[Cainehill]

Johan, given that the ark already can tell the difference between one sacred flag and another (ie, it kills enemy sacred troops but not friendly) is there really any reason why it couldn't do the same for the pretender flag on a unit?

The juggernaut isn't a huge issue, but the pretender getting blinded and diseased is.

[Vicious Love]

My mistake, turns out juggernauts ARE sacred, unless created by an unholy nation(In which case they get neither the "holy" nor the "unholy" flag). Sorry about the misinformation.
Mind you, I do believe this latter case still warrants a fix. I mean, an unholy temple on wheels should at least be unholy. And a temple. On wheels.